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Uncomfortably Numb: Mitt Romney Has No Idea How You Feel

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John Manning

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May 12, 2012, 10:55:33 AM5/12/12
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PoliticusUSA - Were you to slam your head into a
dead tree trunk for hours on end, that tree trunk would
have a vastly more dramatic reaction to your suffering than
corporate prince and right-wing presidential nominee Mitt Romney.

A professional corporate plunderer whose political career
has previously hovered just inches outside of the national
spotlight, never before has Mitt Romney’s boardroom detachment
been so obvious.

Surely there have been other cold, out-of-touch
millionaires who have applied themselves to winning national
office, but the others could at least fake a little humanity –
even pretend to a "compassionate conservatism."

Mitt Romney couldn't be more out of touch with America
if he lived in Pyongyang.

Corporate fantasy has turned into hard-knock reality
where the consumer economy has failed working folks while
corporate interests have turned their eyes on the commons.
From working class to professional, times have changed in America.

Are you one of the 1 in 2 Americans that is poor or low-income?

Mitt Romney has no idea how you feel. With an estimated
personal worth of up to $250 million, if there ever was such
a thing as "Easy Street" Romney would probably own a whole block
on it.

He has reported over $40 million dollars in income
over the last two years alone. Much like the 26 hugely
profitable corporations that paid no taxes last year, Romney
even gets a nice break on his tax bill.

While the tax man may be eating away at your personal savings,
Romney only pays 15%, "lower than what he would pay if he earned
a regular paycheck like many Americans."

Not that Romney minds sharing – with other millionaires.
Back in 2011, when the Romney Plan was first released, it
was discovered that it also included a further tax break for
his fellow millionaires to the tune of $1.5 trillion.

One can get a sense of Romney’s "empathy" when you consider
the Romney Plan's tax cut for the average working class family: $54.

Unlike many Americans, Romney is loaded to such an extent
that when asked about the $374,000 he earned in speaking fees
between 2010 and 2011, he replied that that amount was "not very much."

Most Americans, would probably consider themselves blessed
to ever see that amount in a year.

Most Americans desperately need that income to pay for
a life that is becoming prohibitively expensive. As the price
of housing continues to eat away our population’s personal wealth,
just having a roof over your head can be a challenge.

Mitt Romney has no idea how you feel. He is the epitome of
the 1 percent lifestyle.

In August of last year, for example, at the same time
as Americans faced a wretched job market and depleted
personal finances, Romney decided to knock down one of his
mansions – spanning 3,000 square feet and worth an estimated
$12 million – so he could replace it with a new mansion that
would be four times larger. The "non-living" areas of this new
home are themselves twice as large as the actual homes of
average Americans.

Nor has the campaign trail ruined his appetite for
the luxurious domestic life. Check out this collection of
high-priced luxury hotels the Romney camp has been staying in
during their national campaign. While the rest of America rubs
worried hands over housing being the single biggest expense in
the average family’s budget, Romney unwinds in numerous
palatial dwellings.

Maybe you're among the millions of Americans that has
given up on owning a home because of the unpredictably of
the job-market and the uncertainty of maintaining the kind
of employment that can pay a mortgage. You’re not alone.

Millions of Americans who depended on the auto industry
(and the dozens of secondary industries it supports) for
employment faced an uncertain economic future a few years back
when it appeared major American auto makers would bite the dust.

Typically callous to the livelihoods dependent on the industry,
"let Detroit go bankrupt" thundered Romney from the Op-Ed section
of the New York Times – not that it stops him from taking credit
for Detroit's auto-industry resurgence.

The "auto bailout" that Romney so opposed saved up to 1.5 million jobs.

The comeback of the American auto industry has become undeniable.
By way of comparison, the Wall Street bailout of $700 billion
which Romney supported only saved a few bankers.

Perhaps you wish you too had gotten a slice of that $700 billion
(now over $7.7 trillion) Wall Street bailout as you make your
daily commute, and even the price of gas slowly eats away at
your pocket money and savings.

As if poisoning our planet isn't enough, we're also
going broke to do it. While average American families stand
to save approximately $500 billion by 2025 with a moderate increase
in fuel efficiency standards, according to Consumer Federation
of America, Romney is opposed to even the current standards.

Maybe the gas expenses for his collection of Cadillacs doesn't
register as a concern for him, but perhaps if the average American
had ties to big oil we too could could spend happily on gas
knowing that we're lining the pockets of our friends.

Perhaps your son or daughter are among the more than
2 million Americans who have been shipped to war zones in
Afghanistan or Iraq, ostensibly for freedom and obviously for
resources (like oil for friends of Romney).

Mitt Romney, the millionaire draft dodger, has absolutely no clue
how you feel.

More than a chickenhawk, Romney’s overt support for the
Ryan Budget exemplifies a quiet aloofness to the potential
suffering either caused or allayed by the simple moving of
numbers, money, a reflection at least in federal budget terms,
of limited resources.

Either too distant or too greedy to care, Romney supported
a budget that would actually cut aid to 1.3 million veterans.
It's a pattern with Romney, reminiscent of his days as governor,
when he tried to privatize veterans' care into a for-profit
voucher scheme.

Newton Massachusetts Mayor and Veteran Setti Warren explains:

"As a Mayor I know the importance of having to balance a budget and
keep spending under control, but I also know you need to set the
right priorities when accomplishing these goals. Getting rid of HUD
as a way to cut spending while maintaining tax cuts for
billionaires is extremely offensive to our military families.

"As Mayor of the state that Romney formerly governed, I know
firsthand how out of touch he has been with Veterans. He tried to
cut Veterans' programs by 11 percent in his first budget proposal
and he even proposed turning the VA healthcare system into a
voucher program. Bottom line, we need to take care of our Veterans
when they come home..."

In all this, perhaps the most frustrating thing as an
average American is being so voiceless. Corporate hacks on
television are echoed by corporate hacks on radio are echoed
by corporate hacks online are transmitted by corporate hacks
through satellites world-wide.

Against that accumulation of corporate voices, it's hard to
feel as a single individual or even an aware and active community
that you can ever truly have your voice heard.

Well... Mitt Romney has no idea how any of us feel.

Many of those corporate hacks work for Romney's profit.
So as the Limbaughs of the world belittle you and your
friends, as the Hannitys of the world conjure cheap excuses
for corporate rapine, us Average Jane and Joe Shmoes should
remember that the profit from that corporate hate speech quite
directly goes into the hands of one very out of touch millionaire
named Mitt Romney.

Come November, Romney will for once have to sit
and be judged by millions of average folks, instead of
the other way around. It's an almost karmic moment of irony
that a child of such unearned privilege seeks to sweet-talk the
vote from so many who have had to earn for themselves.

At least for a moment in our democracy, us double-jobbers,
over-time chasers, working parents, citizen intelligentsia,
abandoned youth, colonized urban communities, lip-serviced veterans
and economic untouchables – we'll get to express our opinion on
this millionaire.

Each person’s vote is their own, but if you give a damn about
your condition, you need to realize that Mitt Romney does not.

Multiple links included:
http://www.politicususa.com/uncomfortably-numb-mitt-romney-has-no-idea-how-you-feel.html





Waldo Tunnel

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May 12, 2012, 3:27:21 PM5/12/12
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On May 12, 7:55 am, John Manning <jrobe...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> PoliticusUSA - Were you to slam your head into a
> dead tree trunk for hours on end, that tree trunk would
> have a vastly more dramatic reaction to your suffering than
> corporate prince and right-wing presidential nominee Mitt Romney.

[...]

Please. It's _Bishop_ Romney. He is a bishop in the Mormon church.


> Multiple links included:http://www.politicususa.com/uncomfortably-numb-mitt-romney-has-no-ide...

MarkA

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May 13, 2012, 12:21:21 PM5/13/12
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On Sat, 12 May 2012 11:55:33 -0300, John Manning wrote:

>
>
> PoliticusUSA - Were you to slam your head into a dead tree trunk for hours
> on end, that tree trunk would have a vastly more dramatic reaction to your
> suffering than corporate prince and right-wing presidential nominee Mitt
> Romney.
>

The upcoming election will be a real litmus test for the Democratic party.
The GOP could not have done a better job of creating a "Perfect Storm":
they are far outside the mainstream on most every economic, social, and
political issue, and, to top it off, the best candidate they can produce
for the run for President is......wait for it......Mitt Romney?! The only
way they could become even less credible is if Romney picks Bachmann as
his running mate.

If the Dems can't make mincemeat of the GOP this Fall, it will be a clear
indication that they are even more hopelessly dysfunctional than the GOP
is.

--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock

Just Wondering

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May 14, 2012, 12:39:27 PM5/14/12
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More likely, it would be an indication that "mainstream" is not what you
think it is.

sully

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May 14, 2012, 1:54:02 PM5/14/12
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Dems win hands down on quality of governance
since the rightwing's goal is complete dismantlement
of democratic gov't in favor of an aristocracy.

the left is losing on the marketing though. Met a
guy last night who as we struck up a friendly conversation
he asked me where I was from. I told him, and he
asked me if I was a liberal.

Of course, I said.

I don't mind a heated discussion over a beer, but
I was amazed at the breathtaking ignorance of
history, facts, coming from this guy. What he
lacked in common sense, reason, and interest in
truth was more than replaced with a passionate
hatred of Obama (and now me). :^)

You could smell the stench of right wing radio coming
from him, I'm sure he has never read a newspaper in
his life.

The belch and vomit of lies from the right wing
propaganda machine is a formidable adversary.

Logan Sacket

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May 14, 2012, 7:10:51 PM5/14/12
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On Sat, 12 May 2012 11:55:33 -0300, John Manning
The sad thing is that Obama knows how we feel, but seems be happy with
it.

Logan Sacket

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May 14, 2012, 7:12:16 PM5/14/12
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On Mon, 14 May 2012 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT), sully <suls...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I was just poindering the same thing about the Liberals.

John Manning

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May 14, 2012, 7:14:42 PM5/14/12
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And extremely well-funded by the Big Money Plutocracy.






sully

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May 14, 2012, 8:38:10 PM5/14/12
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> >http://www.politicususa.com/uncomfortably-numb-mitt-romney-has-no-ide...
>
> The sad thing is that Obama knows how we feel, but seems be happy with
> it.

He's trying to educate you, but it's pretty hopeless.


sully

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May 14, 2012, 8:37:30 PM5/14/12
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On May 14, 4:12 pm, logan.sac...@gmail.com (Logan Sacket) wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2012 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT), sully <sulsn...@yahoo.com>
If I took the ridiculous list of 10 lies that this
ignorant and angry fool believed of Obama,
I bet you'd be 10 for 10 on them!

The reich wing propaganda machine works well.

Just Wondering

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May 15, 2012, 4:10:40 AM5/15/12
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The word is spelled "indoctrinate", not "educate".

MarkA

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May 15, 2012, 8:07:54 AM5/15/12
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That is why they are so good at getting elected, and so terrible at
governing once in office.

sully

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May 15, 2012, 12:36:33 PM5/15/12
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This is an example of typical right wing projection.
The wealthy aristocracy has set up a strongly
functioning ministry of truth in the guise of
Faux News and a heavily subsidized radio
network and blogosphere that for 3 years now
has bleated a constant message that journalism
are left wing propaganda, science is the same
as belief, education is an elitist dead end,
christian religion is the basis of all morality,
and that government doesn't work.

It's pretty damned effective, I think, and examples
are plentiful in this newsgroup.

Kumbaya Flowerpauer

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May 15, 2012, 12:53:26 PM5/15/12
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One cold December day in the early 1980s, Mitt Romney loaded up his Gran
Torino with firewood and brought it to the home of a single mother whose
heat had been shut off just days before Christmas.
??
Years after a business partner died unexpectedly, Romney helped the man’s
surviving daughter go to medical school with loans for tuition — loans he
forgave when she graduated.

And in 1997, when a fellow church member’s teenage son fell seriously ill,
Romney sprinted to the hospital in the dead of night, where he kept vigil
with his terrified parents.

Stories like these — tales of long hours spent with grieving families,
financial assistance to those in need and timely help given to strangers
whether asked for or not — abound in the adult life of the Republican
presidential candidate. Many of them, though not all, are connected to his
work as a Mormon bishop.

And yet these stories are largely absent on the campaign trail.

Balance of story here:http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/05/13/051312-news-
romney-web/

Funny how manningites don't mention Romney's good works...gosh, I wonder
why?

Just Wondering

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May 15, 2012, 3:12:26 PM5/15/12
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You just proved my point. You are indeed indoctrinated to spew left
wing talking points. If I asked you to prove what you just posted you
would be unable to do so.
Personally, I have never watch Fox News in my life. I listen to talk
radio maybe 1/2 hour every other week and have never heard the things
you claim about it. If you have enough personal knowledge to support
what you claim, you listen to it much more than I do. I bet you even
think that NPR, Newsweek and David Letterman are politically neutral.

Kumbaya Flowerpauer

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May 15, 2012, 3:40:00 PM5/15/12
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Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:4fb2aaf1$0$19610$882e...@usenet-news.net:


> You just proved my point. You are indeed indoctrinated to spew left
> wing talking points. If I asked you to prove what you just posted you
> would be unable to do so.
> Personally, I have never watch Fox News in my life. I listen to talk
> radio maybe 1/2 hour every other week and have never heard the things
> you claim about it. If you have enough personal knowledge to support
> what you claim, you listen to it much more than I do. I bet you even
> think that NPR, Newsweek and David Letterman are politically neutral.

Progressives are blinded (and enslaved) by their dogma, or they'd know
what conservatives already know:

CHRIS MATTHEWS ADMITS: THE ‘REASON THE MEDIA ARE ON OBAMA’S SIDE AGAINST
ROMNEY‘ IS ’PARTISANSHIP OBVIOUSLY’

It’s a commonly held notion among conservatives that the mainstream media
were overtly sympathetic — even helpful — to then candidate Barack Obama.

Many fear that this same alleged treatment will carry into the 2012
presidential campaign. Those who share these ideals may find some
unlikely bedfellows who agree wholeheartedly that the media are in the
bag for Obama — MSNBC’s Chris Matthews and TIME Magazine’s Mark Halperin.

On Monday evening, a surreal conversation took place between the two
parties, with Matthews and Halperin both agreeing that the media, to
varying degrees, favor the president. While discussing how difficult it
may be for Romney to defend his actions at Bain Capital, some odd
statements began to stream from the talking heads.

HotAir.com provides a transcript of the first bout of purported honesty
about the media’s favoring of Obama:

MATTHEWS: One concern about this, Mark, and you cover this every day. I
wonder if the President can handle this debate. If he gets into a debate
for an hour and a half this fall with Romney, who knows all the thickets
and jungle work. He was in there, he knows where he was. He knows every
dollar he lost, every deal he made. How does Obama get in there and
debate him on his own turf? How can he possibly know as much as Romney
does about how he made or didn’t make money?

HALPERIN: I don’t think he needs to, I think in a debate he can bumper-
sticker it and make it clear. And again, the press — this is one of
these instances where the press is very sympathetic to the Obama
narrative on Bain, and not all that sympathetic to Governor Romney. He
needs to make an argument so compelling that it finds an audience in the
press, if he can do it, and an audience with the public. I think in a
debate, again, we know what the President will say, and I think he’ll be
pretty effective.

Mark Halperin. There are certainly some bizarre comments embedded within
Halperin’s statements. While Romney will be purportedly tasked with
explaining his many years at Bain, Obama will merely need to “bumper
sticker it.” And when it comes to Romney’s former career, it’s intriguing
that the TIME political analyst admits that the media “is very
sympathetic to the Obama narrative.”

Matthews, though, takes the allegation that the media is sympathetic on
the Bain front one step further. The MSNBC host even contends that more
general partisanship may account for one of the reasons that the media
are on Obama’s side:

MATTHEWS: Do you think the reason the press is on Obama’s side against
Romney, besides sometimes partisanship obviously, is the fact that equity
people make 20 or 30 times a year what newspaper people make?
HALPERIN: Not necessarily what TV people make, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Well, that’s true.

Video link here:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chris-matthews-admits-the-reason-the-
media-are-on-obamas-side-against-romney-is-partisanship-obviously/

sully

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May 15, 2012, 3:57:17 PM5/15/12
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Typically right wing conflates talk show hosts
with journalists. Made my point.

Typically, if journalism reports that an
action taken by the right is wrong, immoral,
illegal, the right winger will see the journalist
as "biased".

This is the same phenomenon that causes even
educated right wingers to believe science has a
political left agenda because evidence lines up
overwhelmingly against their peculiar but popular
world view.

So the right winger will include NPR, Newsweek,
David Letterman, Science, Nature, Michael Moore,
and John Stewart as one solid bloc of communist
propaganda, even though he's mixed up journalists,
science, and comedians.

This is because the right winger listens to bad
comedians doing talk shows that pretend to be
journalists and read blogs that pretend to be scientific
and believe this is just an opposing fair opinion.

Kumbaya Flowerpauer

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May 15, 2012, 4:32:21 PM5/15/12
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sully <suls...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:89889585-2908-4ca1...@k7g2000pbo.googlegroups.com:

> On May 15, 12:12 pm, Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 5/15/2012 10:36 AM, sully wrote:

>> You just proved my point.  You are indeed indoctrinated to spew left
>> wing talking points.  If I asked you to prove what you just posted
>> you would be unable to do so.
>> Personally, I have never watch Fox News in my life.  I listen to talk
>> radio maybe 1/2 hour every other week and have never heard the things
>> you claim about it.  If you have enough personal knowledge to support
>> what you claim, you listen to it much more than I do.  I bet you even
>> think that NPR, Newsweek and David Letterman are politically neutral.
>
> Typically right wing conflates talk show hosts
> with journalists. Made my point.

I missed the part where Letterman was identified as a journalist. Perhaps
you can point it out to me... Letterman is, however, part of the
progressive media that jacks off over Obama, the first gay female Jewish
Latino President, so he was correctly identified as such.

The NPR is openly progressive, not to mention intolerant and racist - just
ask Juan Williams.

Newsweek, which sold a while back for a dollar (which was twice what it was
worth), recently showed St. Obama wearing a rainbow halo...nah, no
progressive bias there, nossir.

> Typically, if journalism reports that an
> action taken by the right is wrong, immoral,
> illegal, the right winger will see the journalist
> as "biased".

Evidence, please? Citations?

> This is the same phenomenon that causes even
> educated right wingers to believe science has a
> political left agenda because evidence lines up
> overwhelmingly against their peculiar but popular
> world view.

Evidence, please? Citations?

> So the right winger will include NPR, Newsweek,
> David Letterman, Science, Nature, Michael Moore,
> and John Stewart as one solid bloc of communist
> propaganda, even though he's mixed up journalists,
> science, and comedians.

Evidence, please? Citations?

> This is because the right winger listens to bad
> comedians doing talk shows that pretend to be
> journalists and read blogs that pretend to be scientific
> and believe this is just an opposing fair opinion.

Which "bad comedian" pretends to be a journalist?

Evidence, please? Citations?

Logan Sacket

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May 15, 2012, 7:11:09 PM5/15/12
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On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:38:10 -0700 (PDT), sully <suls...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
No, he is trying to indoctrinate us.

sully

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May 15, 2012, 7:25:57 PM5/15/12
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On May 15, 4:11 pm, logan.sac...@gmail.com (Logan Sacket) wrote:
> On Mon, 14 May 2012 17:38:10 -0700 (PDT), sully <sulsn...@yahoo.com>
Well, I'll certainly admit that Obama, like any politician
is going to present his POV and try to market his plan.

So, ok, indoctrinate.

All politicians will try to indoctrinate, market, sell, convince
you of their POV, it's their job.




Just Wondering

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May 16, 2012, 3:29:10 AM5/16/12
to
On 5/15/2012 1:57 PM, sully wrote:
> Typically right wing conflates talk show hosts
> with journalists.

If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.
> Typically, if journalism reports that an
> action taken by the right is wrong, immoral,
> illegal, the right winger will see the journalist
> as "biased".

If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.
> This is the same phenomenon that causes even
> educated right wingers to believe science has a
> political left agenda because evidence lines up
> overwhelmingly against their peculiar but popular
> world view.

If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.
> So the right winger will include NPR, Newsweek,
> David Letterman, Science, Nature, Michael Moore,
> and John Stewart as one solid bloc of communist
> propaganda, even though he's mixed up journalists,
> science, and comedians.

If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.
> This is because the right winger listens to bad
> comedians doing talk shows that pretend to be
> journalists and read blogs that pretend to be scientific
> and believe this is just an opposing fair opinion.
>
If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.

sully

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May 16, 2012, 11:43:32 AM5/16/12
to
On May 16, 12:29 am, Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 5/15/2012 1:57 PM, sully wrote:
>
snip

>
> > This is the same phenomenon that causes even
> > educated right wingers to believe science has a
> > political left agenda because evidence lines up
> > overwhelmingly against their peculiar but popular
> > world view.
>
> If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.

You are a perfect example of the above, and very
typical. See threads on climate.

Just Wondering

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May 16, 2012, 5:27:46 PM5/16/12
to
Prove it. I'll give you part of the proof: I admit to being educated.
Now, prove that I believe science has a political left agenda.
Then prove I'm a perfect example of your statement that educated right
wingers as a group believe science has a political left agenda.
Then prove that educated right wingers share that belief because they
share a "peculiar but popular world view."
Then prove that evidence lines up overwhelming against that world view.

sully

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May 16, 2012, 7:08:17 PM5/16/12
to
On May 16, 2:27 pm, Just Wondering <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 5/16/2012 9:43 AM, sully wrote:
>
> > On May 16, 12:29 am, Just Wondering<fmh...@comcast.net>  wrote:
> >> On 5/15/2012 1:57 PM, sully wrote:
>
> > snip
>
> >>> This is the same phenomenon that causes even
> >>> educated right wingers to believe science has a
> >>> political left agenda because evidence lines up
> >>> overwhelmingly against their peculiar but popular
> >>> world view.
> >> If I asked you to prove that, you would be unable to do so.
> > You are a perfect example of the above
>
> Prove it.  I'll give you part of the proof:  I admit to being educated.
> Now, prove that I believe science has a political left agenda.

Oh, so you accept climate science's claims of AGW?

You accept the theory of evolution as explained by science?




• R. L. Measures.

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May 16, 2012, 8:50:47 PM5/16/12
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In article
<8ba42c4f-1171-42bd...@to5g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>, sully
<suls...@yahoo.com> wrote:
• True Believer Neo-cons will preach that global warming is a goddamn
stupid Left Wing fiction when the ocean is lapping on their front porches.

--
Richard L. Measures. AG6K, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org

Just Wondering

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May 17, 2012, 3:03:20 AM5/17/12
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You clipped important stuff, so I'll repeat:
Prove it. I'll give you part of the proof: I admit to being educated.
Now, prove that I believe science has a political left agenda.
Then prove I'm a perfect example of your statement that educated right
wingers as a group believe science has a political left agenda.
Then prove that educated right wingers share that belief because they
share a "peculiar but popular world view."
Then prove that evidence lines up overwhelming against that world view.

You can't prove any of this.

sully

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May 17, 2012, 12:24:00 PM5/17/12
to
I can't possibly "prove" what you believe.

I can observe claims of right wingers
for years just on this forum where science,
as represented by theories of evolution and
climate change are considered to be just
opinions from a left wing political agenda.

You are a good example:

"Unline physicists, chemists, geologists, and even biologists,
evolutionists are unable to test their hypothesis with scientific
experimentation giving repeatable results. That's because evolution
is
not based on scientific principles. It's a thought-based exercise not
unlike those the ancient Greeks used to come with with plausible but
entirely false notions about the world around them. It's an unproven,
unverifiable faith-based belief system masquerading as science. Prove
me wrong. Show me a repeatable experiment that scientifically
demonstrates the validity of evolution."

What is this "faith" that people who understand and
accept the sciences of evolution are supposedly
adhering to?

Certainly not your peculiar version of Christianity?

Shall I presume your non-answer to my question
is that you still reject science unless it fits your
right wing world view?



Just Wondering

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May 17, 2012, 2:15:08 PM5/17/12
to
Then forget "proof". Just offer persuasive evidence that I believe
science has a political left agenda.
Then offer persuasive evidence that I'm a perfect example of your
statement that educated right
wingers as a group believe science has a political left agenda.
Then offer persuasive evidence that educated right wingers share that
belief because they
share a "peculiar but popular world view."
Then offer persuasive evidence that, to quote you, " evidence lines up
overwhelmingly against their peculiar but popular
world view."

You can't do it. The most you can do is offer "some" evidence that a
small handful of controversial scientific ideas lack universal support.

sully

unread,
May 17, 2012, 2:38:34 PM5/17/12
to
I just quoted you. I think it was very
STRONG evidence. You claimed that
the vast body of scientific evidence for
evolution is faith based. While you didn't
use the term "left wing", I asked you what
sort of "faith" you believe leads this vast
body of work to this conclusion.

Evolution and climate are not scientifically
controversial at all, they are both settled
science. They are politically controversial.

Scientific controversy is handled in peer
reviewed journal. There is NO, ZERO, NADA
"creationism" in the scientific
literature.

I do admit I cannot offer persuasive evidence
to you. If you cannot accept the vast body of
scientific literature, either by willfully ignoring
it or failing to grasp it, I'm not capable of
it by a long shot to persuade you of anything.





Just Wondering

unread,
May 17, 2012, 6:02:49 PM5/17/12
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No, I didn't. What I suggested was that the conclusions evolutionists
draw from the facts are based on faith, using the term "faith" in its
broad sense, i.e. a belief in things that cannot be proven.
> While you didn't
> use the term "left wing",

Indeed I didn't. And you've never defined the term. When I read "left
wing" I think of a political philosophy that favors increased government
control over capital, vs. "right wing" which makes me think of a
political philosophy that favors a free market society. I fail to see
how people's political opinions have a 1 to 1 correspondence with their
views of science.

> I asked you whatsort of "faith" you believe leads this vast
> body of work to this conclusion.
That sentence makes no sense to me. Faith leads a body of work to a
conclusion?

> Evolution and climate are not scientifically
> controversial at all, they are both settled
> science.
There are scientists who disagree with that statement. Their
disagreement alone is enough to make the statement false.

> They are politically controversial.

I agree there is controversy. Politics is the art of government. I
don't see how politics comes into it.
> Scientific controversy is handled in peer reviewed journal.

Facts are not proven by consensus. Scientific controversy is handled by
continued scientific research and experimentation.

> There is NO, ZERO, NADA
> "creationism" in the scientific
> literature.

There are hundreds of thousands of pages in scientific literature
dealing with biology that neither of us have read. I can't disprove
that statement, but you can't prove it either.


sully

unread,
May 17, 2012, 7:37:18 PM5/17/12
to
Definitions of left wing or right wing are not necessary
for this discussion, since most often the left and right
tend to define the other in the extreme. So I define myself
as a liberal, but believe in a free market society where
government takes an active role in helping the marketplace,
and in protecting the citizens.

You can define right wing for yourself.



>
> > I asked you whatsort of "faith" you believe leads this vast
> > body of work to this conclusion.
>
> That sentence makes no sense to me.  Faith leads a body of work to a
> conclusion?

For example, believers in creationism use their faith in
the word of the bible to dismiss all evidence of evolution
as presented by science, or they compartmentalize or
rationalize away the massive discrepancy.





>
> > Evolution and climate are not scientifically
> > controversial at all, they are both settled
> > science.
>
> There are scientists who disagree with that statement.  Their
> disagreement alone is enough to make the statement false.

Then there would be no scientific body
of work in any field since you can find
scientists who believe all kinds of whacky
stuff.

"Scientifically controversial" is specific term
and is defined as I said. There's LOTS of
scientific controversy out there. The scientific
controversy in evolution is zero. The scientific
controversy in climate is next-to-zero.

Where you would find the controversy is
in the scientific literature itself, not in


>
> > They are politically controversial.
>
> I agree there is controversy.  Politics is the art of government.  I
> don't see how politics comes into it.

Gov't is only a part of politics, you employ politics
when you have a family argument, when you
deal with people issues in the workplace. Politics
is the art of people working things out, and of
leading people to a particular POV or to take
a particular action. Gov't is an institutionalized
function of politics, but is a subset after all.

Politics is exactly what this stuff is about. It's about
religionists being able to insert their religious teaching
into the public schools.



>
> > Scientific controversy is handled in peer reviewed journal.
>
> Facts are not proven by consensus.  Scientific controversy is handled by
> continued scientific research and experimentation.

so you agree with me, scientific controversy is handled in
the process of science. It's not handled in blogs, in
congressional committees, in WSJ op-ed pieces, and in
World Nut Daily or Faux News, or even in journalism
for that matter.

Scientific consensus is the result of the science, not the
process of it.

There's a consensus among physicists on quantum.


>
> > There is NO, ZERO, NADA
> >   "creationism" in the scientific
> > literature.
>
> There are hundreds of thousands of pages in scientific literature
> dealing with biology that neither of us have read.  I can't disprove
> that statement, but you can't prove it either.

Sure there is, but the body of scientists as a whole
has read all of the literature. If there were papers that
showed scientific evidence of creation, this would be
a monumental discovery, it would appear in a review
paper and we'd be reading about a nobel prize, since
such a paper would overturn all of the body of the biological
sciences as we know it.

Scientists who are creationists (yes, they are out there)
think there is some sort of conspiracy, of course. What
they end up doing is creating "ID journals" where they
can publish fringe sciency looking papers and cite each
other. This is commonly known as fraud.

So, I'm guessing that you, an educated guy, still rejects
the body of science that has arrived with the modern
theory of evolution. there is no competing scientific theory
that competes with this, not even a plausible
hypothesis that explains the vast body of evidence that
evolution explains.

Logically, if you don't accept the science, you must
think something is wrong with it. Indeed, I showed you
your own quote that this vast body of science is taking
things "on faith", "are making assumptions", etc, all
kinds of hand waving to explain how the vast consensus
of hundreds of thousands of papers can be wrong.

What is the motivation that drives the
vast body of science to be wrong about evolution (in your
eyes?)

Logan Sacket

unread,
May 17, 2012, 7:41:42 PM5/17/12
to
On Wed, 16 May 2012 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT), sully <suls...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Just because you refuse to understand something doesn't make it wrong
and you right.

Logan Sacket

unread,
May 17, 2012, 7:42:39 PM5/17/12
to
On Wed, 16 May 2012 17:50:47 -0700, r...@somis.org (� R. L. Measures.)
wrote:
Global warming has been happening, but as time progresses, it is
becoming more clear that it isn't caused by CO2.

sully

unread,
May 17, 2012, 7:58:21 PM5/17/12
to
On May 17, 4:41 pm, logan.sac...@gmail.com (Logan Sacket) wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT), sully <sulsn...@yahoo.com>
What do I refuse to understand?

Just Wondering

unread,
May 17, 2012, 8:14:52 PM5/17/12
to
You initiated this thread by making the unsupported claim that "This is
the same phenomenon that causes even
educated right wingers to believe science has a political left agenda."

It's very clear now that not only can you not prove this assertion, you
cannot present persuasive evidence of it. Instead, you try to change
the subject at every turn. Now you even claim that definitions of left
wing and right wing are not necessary, while also indicating that you
define those terms in a way I have not heard of before. You refuse to
come to an agreement on the meaning of terms, even so far as to claim
that the meaning of terms you used is not relevant. Without a common
understanding of terms, which you are unwilling to discuss, further
discussion is pointless.

Just Wondering

unread,
May 17, 2012, 8:15:46 PM5/17/12
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For one thing, that you can't prove your original assertion.

sully

unread,
May 18, 2012, 4:43:17 AM5/18/12
to
oh please. please don't killfile me!

I'd be heartbroken.

JW, I took one of your 'prove it' objections and answered it in
detail,
then asked you questions related to that point.

You answered none.

what a wimp.

sully

unread,
May 18, 2012, 4:45:02 AM5/18/12
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You can't even follow Logan's question.

wimp

• R. L. Measures.

unread,
May 22, 2012, 8:06:06 AM5/22/12
to
In article <4fb78cbd...@news.eternal-september.org>,
• Methane gas is a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2-- so maybe the
problem is too much farting Logan?

Logan Sacket

unread,
May 22, 2012, 6:53:20 PM5/22/12
to
On Tue, 22 May 2012 05:06:06 -0700, r...@somis.org (• R. L. Measures.)
You have a point. I think the next step is to get rid of the
Elephants.

• R. L. Measures.

unread,
May 22, 2012, 7:13:08 PM5/22/12
to
In article <4fc018b8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
• Cattle feed lots make lots.
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