For those who love to bring up the Hamas Charter
HHW
Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
WRITTEN BY WWW.DAILY.PK
TUESDAY, 03 FEBRUARY 2009 21:40
In a few weeks, on February the 10th, Israel will elect its new
leaders during legislative elections. The three main contenders are
Tzipi Livni from the Kadima party (Ariel Sharon’s party), Ehud Barak
from the Labour party and Benyamin Netanyahu from the Likud party.
Before the Gaza "war", it was a two-horse race: Livni against
Netanyahu, with Netanyahu leading by a good margin in all the polls.
The race became a three-horse one thanks to the Gaza “war” launched by
Livni and Barak. Barak saw his ratings surge and is now back in the
race. Even if he does not get elected, his party will get quite a few
more seats than it had planned a few months ago.
But the frontrunner has always been Benyamin Netanyahu and he remains,
in the eyes of the majority of Israel’s journalists (Gideon Levy from
Haaretz) or activists (Jeff Halper from ICAHD), the more than probable
future PM.
The world hopes that this election will be as “clean and
democratic” (Jimmy Carter and most international observers said so) as
the last Palestinian election which took place in 2006 and saw Hamas
win by a large majority.
We know what happened next. To make a long story short, Israel and
most of the international community refused to recognize Hamas as a
legitimate party and then refused to recognize the newly-formed
Palestinian unity government (formed in March 2007).
Abbas, whose goal has always been to be recognized by the U.S. and
Israel, kicked Hamas out of the government and formed a new one with
Salam Fayyad, a politician and economist made in the U.S., as PM. A
violent pre-emptive war was launched by Hamas against Fatah and Israel/
U.S.-backed militias (led by Mohammed Dahlan) and Hamas “took over”
the Gaza Strip.
Even if they reacted with surprise and strongly condemned this move,
the U.S. and Israel had reached one of their long-term objectives in
Palestine. “Divide and Rule” (a strategy used with great success by
the US in the course of its history) was back on again with the West
Bank becoming the respectable (read: cooperative) Palestinian
Authority territory and Gaza turning into the Islamic and evil
Hamastan.
An internationally-supported Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip
followed and once more, to cut a long story short, the Gaza “war” was
launched in December 2008 by Israel. We are here today, more than
1,300 Palestinians dead and 5,000 injured later.
But why did all this happen? What was the official reason given by the
Israel and the International community for not recognizing Hamas?
The reason they gave was that Hamas refused to recognize Israel and
had a Charter calling for the destruction of the Jewish state.
Everyone (politicians and corporate media leaders) accepted this
without asking a few important questions. Which Israel should Hamas
recognize? Israel has not yet stated what its international borders
are. Should Hamas recognize the Israel of 1948? The Israel of 1967?
The Israel of 2009 with its apartheid wall, settlements (settlements
building raised by 60 percent in 2008, the year of the Annapolis
“Peace Process”, according to a Peace Now report), second class Arab
citizens and with East Jerusalem annexed?
Any astute observer could also have objected by reminding people that
Hamas (through Haniyeh and Meshal) had said many times over that it
was willing to accept Israel as a political entity on the 1967
borders. You do not have to look hard for this, it was stated in the
Guardian, Washington Post, amongst others, meaning that Hamas was now
in line with most of the international community, accepting a two-
state solution.
Another issue came back again and again. The problem is Hamas’s
Charter, we would hear. Whatever Meshal or Haniyeh were ready to
accept, the Charter came back to haunt them every time.
But what about the Charter of the Likud Party. With Netanyahu and his
right-wing party ready to take over, it is only fair to find out a bit
more about them.
In the "Peace and Security" chapter of the Likud Party platform, a
recent document (1999) it says initially that:
"Peace is a primary objective of the State of Israel. The Likud will
strengthen the existing peace agreements with the Arab states and
strive to achieve peace agreements with all of Israel’s neighbors with
the aim of reaching a comprehensive solution to the Arab-Israeli
conflict."
But then it says about settlements:
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization
of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the
unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and
constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests
of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and
develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."
Therefore annihilating the slightest chance of a two-state solution.
On Palestinian self-rule it says:
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a
Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can
run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an
independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of
foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity
shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence,
security and national needs."
Therefore annihilating any chance of seeing a Palestinian sovereign
state.
On Jerusalem:
"Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and
only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian
proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city
presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many
members of Labor and Meretz."
Therefore annihilating any chance for future peace negotiations
because east Jerusalem as capital of a future Palestinian state is non-
negotiable for any Palestinian.
We have therefore established that the Likud party charter does not
recognize Palestine and will not accept a sovereign Palestinian state.
The soon-to-come non-recognition of Likud by the international
community and an implemented blockade on Israel should therefore not
come as a surprise for Israelis.
Leo Sgouros
I am wondering how the "Palestinians" would act as stewards over their
part of Jerusalem.
Who are their priests, their administrators, their builders and wise?
Ich bin ein Amerikaner
>
>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine
is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until
Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or
any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a
waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they
will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in
the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is
the best proof of what we are saying."
===USA===
Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And youll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
cause well put a boot in your ass
Its the American way
-Toby Keith, "Courtesy Of The Red, White & Blue"
Eli Grubman
<Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>
>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
countries on earth.
>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>
>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
Eli
Poor Eli Grabmen is a Real Psychopath! LOL
sexual cripple, wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:30:52 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
> <Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>
>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>
>>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>
> 'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
> jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
> countries on earth.
Still writing at your book "The Psychopath's View of World History", poor
psychopathic swine Grabmen? LOL
>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>
>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>
> What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>
> Eli
Yep, that can go in the epilogue of your book, poor psychopathic swine
Grabmen! Should become a best-seller, from what I can see here. LOL
Doctor Panta
--
Retarded, Subnormal and Proud of it: Poor Psychopathic Swine Grabmen! LOL
HHW
Built into your question is a presumption that Israeli Jews are
superior on this score. Yet in the recent Gaza war we saw that they
were not at all interested in preserving Muslim holy places. They
bombed Gaza's mosques to rubble.
Leo Sgouros
Not at all.I can point to all sorts of Israeli research, wise quotes
from Rabbi's, points of view I consider fairly close to mine in their
government ministers.Granted, we are always going to read about the
tragedy or hear the squeaky wheel and that usually drowns everything
out, but I cant point to much reasonable "stewardship" on the
Palestinian side.I just read about the "hamas bunny" and listened to
it briefly, teaching 8 year olds about the zionist entity and I have
to tell you it sickens me.
>Yet in the recent Gaza war we saw that they
> were not at all interested in preserving Muslim holy places. They
> bombed Gaza's mosques to rubble.
Which ones, and were they storing weapons in them, again?They cant be
that holy if they are used to bring retaliation on them deliberately,
like the cannon fodder you make of your supposedly precious children
in the idiotic "childrens programming".If you are Palestinian you
should be ashamed of yourself.
HHW
wrote:
> With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>
> First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
> East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>
> Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
Thanks for the invitation.
> "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
> obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
This is the equivalent of the purposely published WWII war aim of
"unconditional surrender" which historians now believe was a mistake
because it was used as justification by Nazi bitter-enders to avoid
negotiations and to fight to the finish. No set of mere words ever
eliminates the potential for negotiated solutions. Hamas has
contradicted this rhetoric by indicating that it will accept Abdullah
II's peace plan.
> "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine
> is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until
> Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or
> any part of it, should not be given up."
Should not and will not are very different in meaning. The former is
normative and adjustable, the latter indicates inflexibility. Beliefs
are constantly being adjusted. In international relations one of the
rules is to watch what the players do as opposed to focusing
exclusively on their propaganda, especially as the latter is often for
domestic consumption. Hamas wants a settlement. Israel on the other
hand is about to elect Netanyahu whose ideology tells him to take as
much of the West Bank as he fancies. Accordingly the pressure to
depart from ideology and settle the matter must primarily be exerted
on Israel. This has been clear to objective observers for decades.
> "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through
> Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a
> waste of time and vain endeavors."
Propaganda overtaken by events. Hamas badly wants exactly that which
was rejected in the founding rhetoric. Such nonsense will be cancelled
as a part of the peace process. And Israel will have borders! Imagine
that.
> "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
> Euphrates.
One can only blame the history of Zionist propaganda for this.
When they will have digested the region they overtook, they
> will aspire to further expansion, and so on.
If Zionists had had a better eye to the future they would have kept
their mouths shut. Israel will declare Zionist goals fulfilled in the
settlement conference. It will embrace it's new borders as final.
Their plan is embodied in
> the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is
> the best proof of what we are saying."
Untold numbers of ignorant people believed the Protocols were
authentic. Who knows whether the Hamas elders fell into that category
or whether they thought this reference just might be effective
propaganda for them in the long run. In any event Jewish behavior in
Palestine since 1947 has been expansionist. That's an objective fact
and it is consistent with Zionist doctrine. A settlement will put an
end to it. Israel will be a normal nation for the first time in her
history.
HHW
As I say, built into your question and your reply to me is a
presumption that Israeli Jews are superior on that score. I don't make
such presumptions and also believe the path to peace lies in rejecting
them. In any event I've always thought that some international entity
should be responsible for the administration of the holy sites in
Jerusalem. That would eliminate your problem altogether.........
Granted, we are always going to read about the
> tragedy or hear the squeaky wheel and that usually drowns everything
> out, but I cant point to much reasonable "stewardship" on the
> Palestinian side.
And I can't convince myself that left to their own discretion the
Israelis can be trusted with the Temple Mount. Both sides contain
fanatics and it's probable that neither is suitable for this task.
Perhaps a committee of Rastafarians would be laid back enough to adopt
a hands off policy.
I just read about the "hamas bunny" and listened to
> it briefly, teaching 8 year olds about the zionist entity and I have
> to tell you it sickens me.
Are you sickened by the recent pronouncement by the former Sephardic
Chief Rabbi of Israel? I think his name is Eliyahu. He's the one who
calls for exponentially increasing murders of Palestinian civilians in
the tens of thousands should they continue to resist Israel. Does
that sicken you? If so is it time for the settlement I call for?
> >Yet in the recent Gaza war we saw that they
> > were not at all interested in preserving Muslim holy places. They
> > bombed Gaza's mosques to rubble.
>
> Which ones, and were they storing weapons in them, again?They cant be
> that holy if they are used to bring retaliation on them deliberately,
> like the cannon fodder you make of your supposedly precious children
> in the idiotic "childrens programming".If you are Palestinian you
> should be ashamed of yourself.
I wish there were a few Palestinian intellectuals here. I'm a bit
surprised there aren't though the abuse they would receive would be
intense.
> > > > We have therefore established that the Likud party charter does not
> > > > recognize Palestine and will not accept a sovereign Palestinian state.
> > > > The soon-to-come non-recognition of Likud by the international
> > > > community and an implemented blockade on Israel should therefore not
> > > > come as a surprise for Israelis.
Don't you see some irony in this, Leo? Sauce for the goose, eh?
Leo Sgouros
Nothing "built in", its a matter of existence vs non-existence.You
mention the very thing later..
Right here..
> I wish there were a few Palestinian intellectuals here. I'm a bit
> surprised there aren't though the abuse they would receive would be
> intense.
No, I seriously doubt that.I dont talk about this with some grin like
I just ate your canary behind your back, I post about this with a
great amount of sadness that this is not so, and that the tv show with
the kids "tomorrow pioneers" in the region dont really have pioneers
to model.
You dont want to think this is the way I want it, you would be dead
wrong.
>
> > > > > We have therefore established that the Likud party charter does not
> > > > > recognize Palestine and will not accept a sovereign Palestinian state.
> > > > > The soon-to-come non-recognition of Likud by the international
> > > > > community and an implemented blockade on Israel should therefore not
> > > > > come as a surprise for Israelis.
>
> Don't you see some irony in this, Leo? Sauce for the goose, eh?
HHW
Ariadne
No sensible person recognises any country
that doesn't exist, dumbkopf!
Palestine=Neverland
HHW
The ICC is currently addressing the question of whether it does exist
as a basis for prosecution of israelis. It won't get better for you,
Ariadne.
dsharavi
Really? Do tell.
International Criminal Court to consider Gaza investigation
The Palestinian Authority and others want the court to investigate
alleged war crimes committed during the recent battle with Israel.
By Sebastian Rotella
3:57 PM PST, February 4, 2009
Reporting from Madrid -- In a move that could inject a new
international actor into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the
International Criminal Court will examine requests to investigate
alleged war crimes during the recent combat in the Gaza Strip, its
chief prosecutor said Wednesday.
Luis Moreno Ocampo, chief prosecutor of the Netherlands-based court,
said he had decided to consider an investigation after the Palestinian
Authority accepted the jurisdiction of the court last week.
Now his prosecutors must analyze three questions, he said: whether the
Palestinian Authority has legal power to recognize the court's
authority; whether war crimes occurred; and whether the governments
involved conduct genuine investigations.
"Each legal area is complicated," Moreno said in a telephone interview
from The Hague. "We move when we are completely sure. Our contribution
is impartiality. We will consider this carefully and thoroughly."
The court has received 210 requests from organizations and individuals
regarding the recent fighting between Israel and the Hamas militant
group. Many claims accuse Israel of offenses such as violence against
civilians and illegal use of phosphorus shells. But groups such as
Human Rights Watch have also called for an investigation of Hamas'
rocket attacks on Israeli towns and its alleged use of its own
civilians as human shields.
The prosecutor's review could take years and faces legal and political
obstacles. The court can investigate only in nations that accept its
mandate, and most international bodies do not consider the Palestinian
Authority to be a sovereign state.
"The ICC charter is adhered to by sovereign states, and the
Palestinian Authority has not yet been recognized as one, so it cannot
be a member," said Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for the Israeli Foreign
Ministry. "It doesn't mean anything except that it's a good propaganda
stunt."
Nonetheless, the court's review could have symbolic and concrete
repercussions. Israel could try to head off the investigation with its
own comprehensive probe, said Yuval Shany, a professor of
international law at Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
"It will create greater pressures inside Israel to conduct a serious
investigation," Shany said. "The fact that it has not been dismissed
offhand by the court could prove to be significant."
The 7-year-old court has been ratified by 108 countries. Moreno, who
was appointed in 2003, prosecuted former dictators in his native
Argentina in the 1980s and later taught at Harvard University. He has
led ICC investigations of atrocities in Sudan's Darfur region and
other trouble spots. Last week he launched the court's first trial;
the defendant is a Congolese strongman charged with forced recruitment
of child soldiers.
Like Israel, the United States has not accepted the court's authority,
wary of exposing American troops and leaders to prosecution. After
eight years in which Washington was regarded as hostile to the idea of
the court, human rights advocates think the Obama administration will
be more supportive.
In reviewing the Gaza issue, the court will have to address the
explosive question of whether the Palestinian territories constitute
the equivalent of a state, Shany said. Although on the surface it
seems evident that the territories do not meet the criteria, he said,
the ICC could favor a less rigid legal interpretation oriented toward
protecting victims of crimes.
"We have the fundamentals of a state and we have met all conditions
required from a state," Ali Khashan, the Palestinian Authority's
justice minister, said in an interview Wednesday in the West Bank city
of Ramallah. "We have been demanding these rights for a long time, but
no one has paid attention to us. Now we have decided to go to the ICC
with this matter as a first step toward getting our rights through
legal means."
Khashan faxed a letter to the court Jan. 21 declaring that his
government recognized the court's jurisdiction for the purpose of
investigating and prosecuting "acts committed in the territory of
Palestine since 1 July 2002."
But Israeli officials point out pitfalls. Hamas, which is labeled a
terrorist group by Israel and many Western governments, took control
of Gaza in 2007 with the violent ouster of the Palestinian Authority,
which retains power in the West Bank. Hamas rule would impede an
objective investigation and casts doubt on the relevance of the
Palestinian Authority's recognition of the international court,
Israeli officials said.
"Hamas has appropriated Gaza and doesn't recognize PA authority," an
Israeli government official said, requesting anonymity because of the
sensitivity of the topic. "If the residents of Gaza do not recognize
the jurisdiction of the PA, how can the PA bring a case of alleged war
crimes committed in Gaza jurisdiction?"
West Bank Palestinians have won cases in the Israeli justice system,
such as disputes with the Israeli Defense Ministry over the route of a
barrier being built to separate Israel and Palestinian territory,
Israeli officials said. The Palestinian justice minister said he had
not ruled out returning to Israeli courts, but questioned their
objectivity.
"Since the Israeli government has given protection to its officers and
soldiers against legal prosecution, we do not expect the courts,
including the high court, to play an honest and objective role,"
Khashan said.
Times staff writer Richard Boudreaux in Jerusalem, Batsheva Sobelman
of The Times' Jerusalem Bureau and special correspondent Maher
Abukhater in Ramallah contributed to this report.
>It won't get better for you, Ariadne.
There's a phrase for the sort of comment above, but I can't remember
what it is. Apart from the silly bs it is, of course.
Deborah
mir...@actcom.co.il
Like you rightfully call it it is the TEMPLE Mount
Temple of the JEWS ,,,,,
>
> And I can't convince myself that left to their own discretion the
> Israelis can be trusted with the Temple Mount. Both sides contain
> fanatics and it's probable that neither is suitable for this task.
> Perhaps a committee of Rastafarians would be laid back enough to adopt
> a hands off policy.
respect and not touch any part that was Holly to another Faith. While
the Wakf deliberately digs under and into the Mount, unobserved by
professional archeologists and they throw out all artifacts that are
related to other faiths ..
mirjam
dsharavi
> > Granted, we are always going to read about the
> > tragedy or hear the squeaky wheel and that usually drowns everything
> > out, but I cant point to much reasonable "stewardship" on the
> > Palestinian side.
On Feb 4, 11:21 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And I can't convince myself that left to their own discretion the
> Israelis can be trusted with the Temple Mount. Both sides contain
> fanatics and it's probable that neither is suitable for this task.
You think Jews might use the Qubbat As-Sakhrah as an ammo dump -- like
Muslims did in 1967? Or forbid Muslims access to their tertiary "holy"
site", and use it as a garbage dump, and its stones for toilet liners
-- as Muslims forbade Jews, and trashed the holiest of Jews sites, in
the two decades Muslims had exclusive control of it? Or build slum
dwellings and ramshackle whorehouses adjacent to the site, and drive
herds of pigs through praying Muslims -- like Muslims did to Jews
during seven centuries of Muslim control?
Funny how Jews haven't done anything of the sort in the four decades
they've controlled Har HaBayit. Instead, they've left Muslims in
control of the site, even to the point of allowing Muslims to dig up
and destroy ancient Jewish artifacts.
> I wish there were a few Palestinian intellectuals here.
Maybe you should ask Pal Lit Prof Hanan Ashwari. She could expound
intellectually on how the Holocaust is nothing but a "deceitful myth"
created by Jews, and that 9/11 was "fitting justice for the US having
supported Israel" instead of "very reasonable and very gentle and non-
violent" Palestinian Arabs.
Who is Hanan Ashwari and Why Do People Believe Her?
by Robert Horenstein
I've often argued that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn't as
lopsided as
Israel's immense firepower might seem to suggest. That's because world
opinion,
which overall tends to be more sympathetic to the Palestinians, simply
won't
allow the conflict to be decided by Apache helicopters and Merkava
tanks.
It's on this second "battlefield," where the combatants view for world
opinion,
that the Palestinians have a weapon unmatched by anything in the
Israeli
arsenal: Hanan Ashwari, a Palestinian legislator and professor of
English
literature—and a ubiquitous spokeswoman for the Palestinian cause.
Ashwari, who last month gave what one progressive rabbi called a
"revolting,
torturous talk: at Portland's Benson High School, appears almost
weekly on
American news programs, such as "Nightline" and NPR's "All Things
Considered."
Pro-Israel advocates know her all too well. The mere mention of her
name make
them cringe. When she speaks, one can expect the same historical
inaccuracies,
factual distortions and unsubstantiated allegations against Israel
uttered by
other Palestinian propagandists.
What makes Ashwari so formidable and dangerous, however, is her
daunting
credentials, impeccable English and emotive, rapid-fire speaking style—
her lies
are believable.
"It was [fifty-four] years ago that we as a Palestinian people were a
nation
slated for national obliteration," Ashwari told 1,800 Portlanders,
most of them
high school students, on Nov. 1. "Our land was described as
peopleless, so our
existence as a people was denied."
A tragic story of victimhood—if only it were true. But in 1947, the
United
Nations voted overwhelmingly to partition Palestine into two states,
one Jewish,
the other Arab. Had the Arabs not unanimously rejected the UN plan and
subsequently attacked the nascent Israeli state, the Palestinians
presumably
would have been enjoying independence ever since.
Ashwari's historical revisionism, however, isn't limited to a period
that is now
a distant memory (even though that makes it more difficult to
repudiate). For
example, no one has been more adept at rewriting the history of last
year's Camp
David summit than Ashwari. "Arafat was not only ready to make a peace
deal, but
he actually prepared his constituency for peace," she claimed on a
national
radio shortly after the conclusion of the summit with Ehud Barak.
It's hard to say which of these claims is more absurd. Yet such
assertions too
often fail to elicit a reality check. At Benson, they drew standing
ovations.
Ready to make peace? Arafat spurned a proposal that would have given
the
Palestinians all of Gaza, 96 percent of the West Bank, and a foothold
in
Jerusalem (including sovereignty over the Old City's Muslim and
Christian
quarters). Rather than presenting at least a counter-proposal, he
unleashed
another intifada.
Arafat, moreover, has hardly prepared his people for peace. He has
prepared
them, all right—his muftis exhort followers to hate Jews, his schools
teach a
curriculum that totally disregards the Oslo peace process, his
representatives
deride the very notion of a Jewish historical/religious connection to
Jerusalem.
Not surprisingly, none of these details find their way into Ashwari's
anti-Israel diatribes. Ever the propagandist, she masterfully spins a
tale that
completely absolves the Palestinians of any culpability for the
ongoing
violence, blaming it on Israeli "control, closure and siege," on the
demolition
of "the homes of those with whom [Israel] disagrees," on
"assassinations."
Where Ashwari does the most disservice to the cause of peace is by
accusing
Israel of a "racist mentality," pointedly recalling the now
discredited
"Zionism-is-racism" canard. Here, the argument isn't over the legality
of the
Jewish settlements or whether Israel uses excessive force in response
to
Palestinian terrorism. Rather, to portray Israel as a racist state, as
Ashwari
does, is to challenge its very legitimacy.
How can you sell your people on peaceful coexistence when you deny the
other
side has any legal or moral standing? Such extremism one would expect
from
Islamic militants, but Ashwari is considered a "mainstream"
Palestinian voice.
This sort of incitement not only is tolerated by the Palestinian
Authority, it's
encouraged.
By contrast, Palestinian voices of moderation continue to be highly
unpopular.
Consider Dr. Sari Nusseibeh, head of Al-Quds University and the new
Palestinian
representative in East Jerusalem. In an interview with the Associated
Press,
Nusseibeh boldly criticized Arafat's policies: "We're telling the
Israelis that
we're going to kick you out. It's not that we want independence in the
West Bank
and Gaza, we want to kick you out of your homes. And to make sure that
the
Israelis get the message, people go to a disco or restaurant and blow
themselves
up. The whole thing is just crazy, ugly, totally counterproductive."
Unfortunately, a campaign to remove Dr. Nusseibeh from his post has
already
begun inside the Palestinian community. Given the choice between his
outspokenness in favor of Palestinian concessions or Ashwari's silver-
tongued
slander and scapegoating, the Palestinian approach is clear: silence
Nusseibeh,
get Ashwari on Larry King.
This is bad news for the Bush administration's new Middle East
diplomatic
initiative, for the Ashwari-Arafat hate game just keeps pushing a
political
solution further and further beyond reach.
=====================
The Jewish Review December 1, 2001
Deborah
Ich bin ein Amerikaner
>On Feb 4, 5:30 am, Ich bin ein Amerikaner <InsaneDi...@SoCal.com>
>wrote:
>> With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>
>> First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>> East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>>
>> Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>
>Thanks for the invitation.
>
>> "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>> obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>
>This is the equivalent of the purposely published WWII war aim of
>"unconditional surrender" which historians now believe was a mistake
>because it was used as justification by Nazi bitter-enders to avoid
>negotiations and to fight to the finish. No set of mere words ever
>eliminates the potential for negotiated solutions. Hamas has
>contradicted this rhetoric by indicating that it will accept Abdullah
>II's peace plan.
King Abdullah II told a delegation of Knesset members that "we are in
the same boat, we have the same problem. We have the same enemies."
The king reiterated the comments a number of times, which those at the
meeting said referred to Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas.
Hamas refuses Israel's right to exist. Hamas wants Arabs countries to
join them in their religious war against Israel. Hamas' main
benefactor happens to be Iran.
>> "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine
>> is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until
>> Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or
>> any part of it, should not be given up."
>
>Should not and will not are very different in meaning. The former is
>normative and adjustable, the latter indicates inflexibility. Beliefs
>are constantly being adjusted. In international relations one of the
>rules is to watch what the players do as opposed to focusing
>exclusively on their propaganda, especially as the latter is often for
>domestic consumption. Hamas wants a settlement. Israel on the other
>hand is about to elect Netanyahu whose ideology tells him to take as
>much of the West Bank as he fancies. Accordingly the pressure to
>depart from ideology and settle the matter must primarily be exerted
>on Israel. This has been clear to objective observers for decades.
Need you be reminded Israel took the West Bank and Gaza from Syria and
Egypt in the 1967 war against Israel. Israel gave the Palestinian
Arabs the West Bank and Gaza in their ill advised "Land for Peace"
deal.
>
>> "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through
>> Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a
>> waste of time and vain endeavors."
>
>Propaganda overtaken by events. Hamas badly wants exactly that which
>was rejected in the founding rhetoric. Such nonsense will be cancelled
>as a part of the peace process. And Israel will have borders! Imagine
>that.
>
>> "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
>> Euphrates.
>
>One can only blame the history of Zionist propaganda for this.
Link to your facts.
>
>When they will have digested the region they overtook, they
>> will aspire to further expansion, and so on.
>
>If Zionists had had a better eye to the future they would have kept
>their mouths shut. Israel will declare Zionist goals fulfilled in the
>settlement conference. It will embrace it's new borders as final.
>
>Their plan is embodied in
>> the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is
>> the best proof of what we are saying."
>
>Untold numbers of ignorant people believed the Protocols were
>authentic. Who knows whether the Hamas elders fell into that category
>or whether they thought this reference just might be effective
>propaganda for them in the long run. In any event Jewish behavior in
>Palestine since 1947 has been expansionist. That's an objective fact
>and it is consistent with Zionist doctrine. A settlement will put an
>end to it. Israel will be a normal nation for the first time in her
>history.
>
What a load of crap!
Ich bin ein Amerikaner
What basis? Palestine was never a sovereign country. Palestine
historically is a region.
In its broader meaning as a geographical term, Palestine can refer to
an area that includes contemporary Israel and the Palestinian
territories, parts of Jordan, and parts of Lebanon and Syria. In its
narrow meaning, it refers to the area within the boundaries of the
former British Mandate of Palestine (1920-1948) west of the Jordan
River.
Ich bin ein Amerikaner
wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:30:52 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>
>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>
>>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>
>'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
>jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
>countries on earth.
You are wrong and you inability to back up your assertions tells us
you are ignorant.
>
>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>
>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>
>What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>
>Eli
Along with being ignorant, you are mentally challenged.
Eli Grubman
<Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>With Charles Manson as a mentor, Eli Grubman <eli.g...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:30:52 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
>><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>>
>>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>>
>>>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>>>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>>
>>'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
>>jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
>>countries on earth.
>
>You are wrong and you inability to back up your assertions tells us
>you are ignorant.
No, you are wrong and since you haven't backed up a single assertion
of yours, that just sounds like more jew hypocrisy.
>>
>>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>>
>>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>>
>>What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>>
>>Eli
>
>Along with being ignorant, you are mentally challenged.
Apart from being a jew, you are a jew asshole.
Eli
fla...@verizon.net
On 5-Feb-2009, Ich bin ein Amerikaner <Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
> With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Feb 4, 4:23 pm, Ariadne <ariadne....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 4 Feb, 04:50, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
> >>
> >> No sensible person recognises any country
> >> that doesn't exist, dumbkopf!
> >>
> >> Palestine=Neverland
> >
> >The ICC is currently addressing the question of whether it does exist
> >as a basis for prosecution of israelis. It won't get better for you,
> >Ariadne.
>
> What basis? Palestine was never a sovereign country. Palestine
> historically is a region.
At best. It was the leftovers from the Ottoman Empire, hence
the need for the Britih to administer it (& hence their eagerness
to pass it off to someone, ANYONE else!)
>
> In its broader meaning as a geographical term, Palestine can refer to
> an area that includes contemporary Israel and the Palestinian
> territories, parts of Jordan, and parts of Lebanon and Syria. In its
> narrow meaning, it refers to the area within the boundaries of the
> former British Mandate of Palestine (1920-1948) west of the Jordan
> River.
Before 1964, Palestinian used to refer solely to Jews in the area.
Until the rest of them foundit politically expedient, there were a
great many complaints from local Arabs about how the term was
"a ZIonist construct" & "part of a plot to destroy Pan Arab unity".
(WTTE).
Susan
Poor Eli Grabmen is a Real Psychopath! LOL
sexual cripple, wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:41:46 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
> <Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>
>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, Eli Grubman <eli.g...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:30:52 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
>>><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>>>
>>>>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>>>>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>>>
>>>'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
>>>jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
>>>countries on earth.
>>
>>You are wrong and you inability to back up your assertions tells us
>>you are ignorant.
>
> No, you are wrong and since you haven't backed up a single assertion
> of yours, that just sounds like more jew hypocrisy.
You've just been exposed as a plain retard, AGAIN, poor psychopathic swine
Grabmen!
>>>
>>>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>>>
>>>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>>>
>>>What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>>>
>>>Eli
>>
>>Along with being ignorant, you are mentally challenged.
>
> Apart from being a jew, you are a jew asshole.
>
> Eli
You are simply a sick, subnormal, degenerate, psychopathic swine.
Doctor Panta
--
Everyone check this: psychopath Grabmen glued to his computer today as from
05:43 a.m. again (MID: <j1vko4pimp4m3c0m9...@4ax.com>).
Watch the poor psycho with no life AT ALL making a complete ass of himself,
AGAIN, for the next EIGHTEEN to TWENTY HOURS (and more) at a stretch!
Ich bin ein Amerikaner
wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:41:46 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>
>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, Eli Grubman <eli.g...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:30:52 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
>>><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>>>
>>>>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>>>>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>>>
>>>'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
>>>jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
>>>countries on earth.
>>
>>You are wrong and you inability to back up your assertions tells us
>>you are ignorant.
>
>No, you are wrong and since you haven't backed up a single assertion
>of yours, that just sounds like more jew hypocrisy.
Such as?
>
>>>
>>>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>>>
>>>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>>>
>>>What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>>>
>>>Eli
>>
>>Along with being ignorant, you are mentally challenged.
>
>Apart from being a jew, you are a jew asshole.
>
>Eli
Nothing like a racist girly-boy, such as you, to defend your
ignorance.
Ich bin ein Amerikaner
>
>On 5-Feb-2009, Ich bin ein Amerikaner <Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>
>> With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Feb 4, 4:23 pm, Ariadne <ariadne....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On 4 Feb, 04:50, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>> >>
>> >> No sensible person recognises any country
>> >> that doesn't exist, dumbkopf!
>> >>
>> >> Palestine=Neverland
>> >
>> >The ICC is currently addressing the question of whether it does exist
>> >as a basis for prosecution of israelis. It won't get better for you,
>> >Ariadne.
>>
>> What basis? Palestine was never a sovereign country. Palestine
>> historically is a region.
>
>At best. It was the leftovers from the Ottoman Empire, hence
>the need for the Britih to administer it (& hence their eagerness
>to pass it off to someone, ANYONE else!)
Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians were eager to pass off the
Palestinian Arab anywhere else other than their respective country.
Palestinian Arabs is the half-brother nobody wants. It took the
benevolence of Israel to yield the West and Gaza so the Palestinian
Arabs would have a place called home. It's amazing Palestinian Arabs
in Israel are called citizens of Israel. Knesset even has a few Arabs
in the legislative body. Since the first Knesset elections in 1949,
there have been 59 Arabs members, 12 in the current Knesset.
Eli Grubman
<Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>With Charles Manson as a mentor, Eli Grubman <eli.g...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:41:46 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
>><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>>
>>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, Eli Grubman <eli.g...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:30:52 GMT, Ich bin ein Jude
>>>><Insan...@SoCal.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>With Charles Manson as a mentor, HHW <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Likud charter does not recognize Palestine
>>>>>
>>>>>First of all Palestine is nothing more than a region in the Middle
>>>>>East. Arabs are not exclusive to the region.
>>>>
>>>>'Israel' is nothing more that a fictitious country in the Middle East;
>>>>jews are not exclusive to the region, in fact they've infested most
>>>>countries on earth.
>>>
>>>You are wrong and you inability to back up your assertions tells us
>>>you are ignorant.
>>
>>No, you are wrong and since you haven't backed up a single assertion
>>of yours, that just sounds like more jew hypocrisy.
>
>Such as?
Precisely. Not one assertion backed up.
>>>>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>>>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>>>>
>>>>What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>>>>
>>>>Eli
>>>
>>>Along with being ignorant, you are mentally challenged.
>>
>>Apart from being a jew, you are a jew asshole.
>>
>>Eli
>
>Nothing like a racist girly-boy, such as you, to defend your
>ignorance.
Nothing like a homophobicŽ jew asshole such as you to display your
ignorance.
Eli
Poor Eli Grabmen is a Real Psychopath! LOL
Retarded, Subnormal and Proud of it: Poor Psychopathic Swine Grabmen! LOL
>>>>>>Explain these lines in the Hamas charter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
>>>>>>obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>>>>>
>>>>>What's to explain already? Sounds like a good policy to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eli
>>>>
>>>>Along with being ignorant, you are mentally challenged.
>>>
>>>Apart from being a jew, you are a jew asshole.
>>>
>>>Eli
>>
>>Nothing like a racist girly-boy, such as you, to defend your
>>ignorance.
>
> Nothing like a homophobic® jew asshole such as you to display your
> ignorance.
>
> Eli
Retarded, Subnormal and Proud of it: Poor Psychopathic Swine Grabmen! LOL
<BG> ATTENTION: poor psychopathic swine Grabmen now glued to its computer
for the SEVENTEENTH HOUR, AGAIN!
...so far! LOL
Still THREE HOURS for it to go to keep up with its daily quota of TWENTY
HOURS of making a complete ass of itself on the Usenet!
Doctor Panta
Ariadne
>
> Times staff writer Richard Boudreaux in Jerusalem, Batsheva Sobelman
> of The Times' Jerusalem Bureau and special correspondent Maher
> Abukhater in Ramallah contributed to this report.
>
> >It won't get better for you, Ariadne.
>
> There's a phrase for the sort of comment above, but I can't remember
> what it is. Apart from the silly bs it is, of course.
>
> Deborah
I don't know what it is. He fabricates a complaint from
me and then tells me it's incurable. BS seems to cover
the device!
Cicero was light-years smarter.
Ariadne
Someone is forging Elizabeth Buckwalter's ID.
Ostensibly posting from Germany but probably
using a proxy server and it's most likely loathesome
Vera Perks.
HHW
I think it's the loathsome Deborah Nyob.
DoD
That is because you are a retard.
HHW
So you're still hoping for the failure of the Obama Presidency, David.
Sure you are. You'd sacrifice anything in your struggle to be loved by
YOUR chosen people. Still hoping that our new leader will not be able
to resolve the conflict between naked aggression and the whole world's
need for Palestinian statehood? Yes, you are. And you're still doing
it because you're a miserable weakling who isn't even respected by
those for whom you toady; you're the classic Shabbos goy, the useful
idiot.
DoD
First lie... Get off the bottle watson... Sober up. Just because you
have been a failure up to this point in your life, doesn't mean the
last
few years, you can't turn it around. It is all pretty obvious with the
proven lies that you post here just about everyday.... Wake up son...
it
is not too late.
HHW
So you don't have the moral courage to admit that you hope the Obama
Presidency will fail to accomplish a settlement in the Middle East.
You know damned well I'm right. You don't think it's the right time
for a settlement now do you , David? The Palestinians haven't been
definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
scam. It's about real estate. Yes, that's it. You're getting a little
desperate. Israel has no credibility anywhere, not even in Turkey. How
can you be the much loved Department of Defense for your chosen people
when their racist state has *earned* the contempt of the whole world
BY ITS CONDUCT and the manipulation of the memory of the Holocaust is
also paying fewer and fewer dividends.
I miss your stream of articles from that lobby rag. I enjoy
humiliating you by refuting them. Don't you wish you could think for
yourself?
Count 1
***
So you don't have the moral courage to admit that you hope the Obama
Presidency will fail to accomplish a settlement in the Middle East.
Tipsy McPickled's logic; "If you don't 'admit' what I'm lying about is
truth, then you lack moral courage."
***
You know damned well I'm right. You don't think it's the right time
for a settlement now do you , David? The Palestinians haven't been
definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
scam.
***
Does Tipsy McPickled use a definition of 'won' that wouldn't let every loser
claim victory?
***
It's about real estate. Yes, that's it. You're getting a little
desperate. Israel has no credibility anywhere, not even in Turkey. How
can you be the much loved Department of Defense for your chosen people
when their racist state has *earned* the contempt of the whole world
BY ITS CONDUCT and the manipulation of the memory of the Holocaust is
also paying fewer and fewer dividends.
***
Funny how this 'global contempt' only seems to materialize in McPickled's
imagination. I have not spoken to a person in North America who does not
think Israel should be given a free hand to finally solve the problem of
Hamas. If anything, Israel's conduct hasn't gone far enough.
***
I miss your stream of articles from that lobby rag. I enjoy
humiliating you by refuting them. Don't you wish you could think for
yourself?
***
As opposed to having Finklestein and Pappe think for you?
Count 1
The Plestinians haven't been
definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
scam.
Here is a quick AP report on Zahar's remergence. In it Tipsy will read how
Hamas has caused all UN Aid shipments to stop when they stole 10 trucks of
Aid, in a seperate incident to the thousands of blankets and hundreds of
rice packets they stole earlier in the week.
And international donors are 'reluctant' to hand over rebuilding funds to
Hamas. No one in the international community trusts Hamas to use the money
properly.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090207/israel_gaza_090207/20090207?hub=World
Catching on to scams indeed.
HHW
> ***
> So you don't have the moral courage to admit that you hope the Obama
> Presidency will fail to accomplish a settlement in the Middle East.
> ***
>
> Tipsy McPickled's logic; "If you don't 'admit' what I'm lying about is
> truth, then you lack moral courage."
Perfectly predictable, Ratner. You throw a patronizing little bone to
the Shabbos Goy in public. How you will be talking about him in
private is another matter.
> ***
> You know damned well I'm right. You don't think it's the right time
> for a settlement now do you , David? The Palestinians haven't been
> definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
> battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
> scam.
> ***
>
> Does Tipsy McPickled use a definition of 'won' that wouldn't let every loser
> claim victory?
It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche. You
can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
pain. You're losing ground every time you do it. The 2006 Vandal
Invasion of Lebanon was a clear disaster for the Israelis, both
tactically opposite Hezbollah and strategically for the gratuitous
destruction of Lebanon. It sickened the whole world. It was the same
gratuitously criminal endeavor which has now been perpetrated AGAIN in
Gaza with the same fake public expression of goals, and the same
actually intended infliction of pain and death. "We Israelis stole
their land. After having done that we can't survive unless they fear
us. We know we can't keep doing this forever but we can't admit that
our ideology is a failure can we? And besides, good old America will
ALWAYS pick up the pieces for us. She has this immense reservoir of
Holocaust guilt. And now we now have a Holocaust Museum in every state
except Montana--or was it Alaska? We and our lobby can keep
manufacturing it forever!"
> ***
> It's about real estate. Yes, that's it. You're getting a little
> desperate. Israel has no credibility anywhere, not even in Turkey. How
> can you be the much loved Department of Defense for your chosen people
> when their racist state has *earned* the contempt of the whole world
> BY ITS CONDUCT and the manipulation of the memory of the Holocaust is
> also paying fewer and fewer dividends?
> ***
>
> Funny how this 'global contempt' only seems to materialize in McPickled's
> imagination. I have not spoken to a person in North America who does not
> think Israel should be given a free hand to finally solve the problem of
> Hamas. If anything, Israel's conduct hasn't gone far enough.
No, obviously not far enough to prevail. Which way does the wind blow
from Gaza? You're reduced to nukes.
In the global political sense it's now become impossible to prevail
and it's getting worse exponentially.
Look how you shift from "global" to North America. How many of the
People of North America have you discussed it with, Ratner? And have
you given your scientific sample guarantees that they won't be
publicly accused of anti-Semitism and of being "Jew Haters" or of
losing their profession if they speak freely? I don't notice that
you've done that with our Congress. And why do you hesitate to mention
opinion in the rest of the world? Oh, yes, it's because it's here
where your lobby's influence has been overwhelming. You're far "more"
rapidly losing influence elsewhere.
But I do like your rare burst of inadvertent candor: "....Israel's
*conduct* hasn't gone far enough." Just one little added modifier is
needed: "Israel's criminal conduct hasn't gone far enough." That's
really an astounding thing to say, Ratner.
>
> ***
> I miss your stream of articles from that lobby rag. I enjoy
> humiliating you by refuting them. Don't you wish you could think for
> yourself?
> ***
>
> As opposed to having Finklestein and Pappe think for you?
Don't you just love Benny Morris? Why didn't you defend that miserable
fraudster against Mearsheimer & Walt?
I'm very fond of Avi Shlaim and do just love Uri Avnery. And then,
yes, there are the lion hearted Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe. If
Israel survives the blunders of her criminal leadership I expect
monuments to these great men to be raised throughout the country. They
are Israel's equivalent of Solzhenitsyn. It will take a while for the
terrorized people of Israel to understand the sacrifice they made to
help them survive their own blunders, but it will come. Maybe even for
Shlomo Sand. Since when have scholars taken such risks?
HHW
>
> Catching on to scams indeed.
Whence this reluctance? Could Israel have something to do with that?
How could the money be misused by prisoners in a concentration camp?
Perhaps you're such defective right winger as to have given up on
trickle down theory.
Count 1
"HHW" <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7d2f168d-3286-4537...@t3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 7, 8:34 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ***
> The Plestinians haven't been
> definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
> battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
> scam.
> ****
>
> Here is a quick AP report on Zahar's remergence. In it Tipsy will read how
> Hamas has caused all UN Aid shipments to stop when they stole 10 trucks of
> Aid, in a seperate incident to the thousands of blankets and hundreds of
> rice packets they stole earlier in the week.
>
> And international donors are 'reluctant' to hand over rebuilding funds to
> Hamas. No one in the international community trusts Hamas to use the money
> properly.
>
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090207/israel_g...
>
> Catching on to scams indeed.
***
Whence this reluctance? Could Israel have something to do with that?
***
Of course Tipsy, in your world Israel has something to do with *everything*.
***
How could the money be misused by prisoners in a concentration camp?
Perhaps you're such defective right winger as to have given up on
trickle down theory.
***
Please read the story at the link. There is no mention of money in it.
You're confusing this story with an entirely different story of Hamas's
malfeasance, when 'officials' were stopped trying to smuggle in millions of
US dollars.
I'm just *sure* it was all going to feed the suffering masses.
Count 1
> On Feb 7, 8:12 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ***
>> So you don't have the moral courage to admit that you hope the Obama
>> Presidency will fail to accomplish a settlement in the Middle East.
>> ***
>>
>> Tipsy McPickled's logic; "If you don't 'admit' what I'm lying about is
>> truth, then you lack moral courage."
>
> Perfectly predictable, Ratner.
Of course it was perfectly predictable I would point out to you the failure
of your "logic". What concerns me is you think I do it because I don't like
you, or enjoy making you look idiotic, or because you make it so easy.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I do it to help you. To show you
how to make your posts more relevant, more logical, and less reliant on ad
hominems and shoddy history lessons from discredited professors.
>> ***
>> You know damned well I'm right. You don't think it's the right time
>> for a settlement now do you , David? The Palestinians haven't been
>> definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
>> battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
>> scam.
>> ***
>>
>> Does Tipsy McPickled use a definition of 'won' that wouldn't let every
>> loser
>> claim victory?
>
> It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche.
Nope. For it to become a cliche it first has to gain popular use. Haven't
seen it portrayed anywhere except the internet, and even then only from the
standard pallie propaganda sites. Everyone I've read who has at least some
kind of history analyzing military engagements has stated Hamas's capacity
to fight has been significantly hurt. We can see that now in the lack of
serious rocket fire, and Hamas's desperate acts in stealing all this aid
from the UN.
*Facts* Tipsy, that's what you get from me. Not 'cliches'.
You
> can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
> pain.
Actually you can, but Israel is rightfully unwilling to do so. A *fact*
which runs counter to your cliched propaganda.
>> ***
>> It's about real estate. Yes, that's it. You're getting a little
>> desperate. Israel has no credibility anywhere, not even in Turkey. How
>> can you be the much loved Department of Defense for your chosen people
>> when their racist state has *earned* the contempt of the whole world
>> BY ITS CONDUCT and the manipulation of the memory of the Holocaust is
>> also paying fewer and fewer dividends?
>> ***
>>
>> Funny how this 'global contempt' only seems to materialize in McPickled's
>> imagination. I have not spoken to a person in North America who does not
>> think Israel should be given a free hand to finally solve the problem of
>> Hamas. If anything, Israel's conduct hasn't gone far enough.
>
> No, obviously not far enough to prevail.
Why didn't "Israel go far enough to prevail"? Do you think Hamas would have
stopped if the tables were turned?
What is about Hamas's ideology that allows us to state categorically they
would have not stopped?
> Look how you shift from "global" to North America. How many of the
> People of North America have you discussed it with, Ratner?
My friends, co-workers, and causal acquaintances. Haven't met one with a
rudimentary understanding of the issues who supports Hamas. And I've met
more than one who thinks Israel should be let off her leash, 6500 attempts
at mass slaughter from Hamas and they realize that 'enough is enough'.
All I'm saying is within my social circle in the real world, I haven't met
anyone who thinks Israel must be admonished.
And have
> you given your scientific sample guarantees that they won't be
> publicly accused of anti-Semitism and of being "Jew Haters" or of
> losing their profession if they speak freely?
Remember Tipsy, all freedoms come with responsibilities.
I don't notice that
> you've done that with our Congress. And why do you hesitate to mention
> opinion in the rest of the world? Oh, yes, it's because it's here
> where your lobby's influence has been overwhelming. You're far "more"
> rapidly losing influence elsewhere.
I live in Canada, between you and I there is no 'here'.
> But I do like your rare burst of inadvertent candor: "....Israel's
> *conduct* hasn't gone far enough." Just one little added modifier is
> needed: "Israel's criminal conduct hasn't gone far enough." That's
> really an astounding thing to say, Ratner.
I agree. And I note you said it, not I. It is impossible for anyone to
conclude that Israel's behaviour in her last Gaza operation can be described
as 'criminal'. Such an adjective is used only by those who don't truly
understand the use and meaning of the term.
>> ***
>> I miss your stream of articles from that lobby rag. I enjoy
>> humiliating you by refuting them. Don't you wish you could think for
>> yourself?
>> ***
>>
>> As opposed to having Finklestein and Pappe think for you?
>
> Don't you just love Benny Morris? Why didn't you defend that miserable
> fraudster against Mearsheimer & Walt?
I've never read him. And Mearsheimer and Walt have enough on their hands
defending themselves.
> I'm very fond of Avi Shlaim and do just love Uri Avnery. And then,
> yes, there are the lion hearted Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe.
What makes you think I give one shit about how big those two discredited
professors 'hearts' are? I want to know how good their scholarship is. I
can't measure the altruism they percieve for themselves; but I can see that
one was removed from duty and found employment at a backwater university far
from home and the other was fired after acting like an asshole and failing
to produce any scholarly works.
Pappe is just an enough of an asshole to state conclusions based on nothing
more than he thought they 'felt' right.
*Facts* Tipsy, use *facts*, not *feelings*, and you will find your
conception of reality is much closer to actual reality.
If
> Israel survives the blunders of her criminal leadership I expect
> monuments to these great men to be raised throughout the country.
Maybe you should start carving (16 ft tall, solid white marble) them now,
the time you spend doing that is less time to pollute usenet with your
nonsense. I can't gurantee a buyer for a 16ft tall white marble statue of a
fired Jewish history professor, but carving it would be a far better hobby
than using usenet as your personal Anti-Israeli propaganda forum.
Ariadne
Takes Perks and Grosvomit as his models.
Zev
> On Feb 4, 1:32 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 4, 1:21 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 4, 12:14 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 4, 1:39 am, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Feb 3, 10:50 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snipped>
> How was this young man brought up, Leo?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmv7s-Q0J8
So many Jews have been killed in Hebron,
this sort of thing was bound to happen.
But why do you compare kids
who get a kick out of using 4-letter words,
with Hamas terrorists?
Leo Sgouros
> > On Feb 4, 1:32 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 4, 1:21 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Feb 4, 12:14 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 4, 11:56 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Feb 4, 1:39 am, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 3, 10:50 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> > How was this young man brought up, Leo?
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmv7s-Q0J8
The difference between those kids and Mel Gibson is he is famous.The
rants sound similar.
Ariadne
Ridiculous.
"Hamas killing Fatah members in
Gaza.
Maybe if the world knew that Hamas
is not just killing Jews, will he change
his mind?"
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7d2f168d-3286-4537...@t3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 8:34 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ***
> > The Plestinians haven't been
> > definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
> > battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
> > scam.
> > ****
>
> > Here is a quick AP report on Zahar's remergence. In it Tipsy will read how
> > Hamas has caused all UN Aid shipments to stop when they stole 10 trucks of
> > Aid, in a seperate incident to the thousands of blankets and hundreds of
> > rice packets they stole earlier in the week.
The UN will feed the Palestinian people. That's their mission. And
Hamas is a social welfare operation in addition to being a Resistance
militia. In that they have a good reputation. I've no doubt that the
blankets and rice packets were distributed quickly and fairly. There's
a crisis there you know. It probably pissed off the UN people
somewhat. They're bureaucrats after all, accustomed to following
regulations closely.
> > And international donors are 'reluctant' to hand over rebuilding funds to
> > Hamas. No one in the international community trusts Hamas to use the money
> > properly.
>
> >http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090207/israel_g...
>
> > Catching on to scams indeed.
>
> ***
> Whence this reluctance? Could Israel have something to do with that?
> ***
>
> Of course Tipsy, in your world Israel has something to do with *everything*.
Not at all, she has little to do with the qualities I admire most:
humanity, democracy, due process, willingness to keep her promises,
candor.
>
> ***
> How could the money be misused by prisoners in a concentration camp?
> Perhaps you're such defective right winger as to have given up on
> trickle down theory.
> ***
>
> Please read the story at the link.
I'll settle for your characterization of it. I almost never chase
links unless I'm really interested.
There is no mention of money in it.
The comment above "rebuilding funds" must have misled me. When "funds"
are mentioned we can't think about money now can we?
> You're confusing this story with an entirely different story of Hamas's
> malfeasance, when 'officials' were stopped trying to smuggle in millions of
> US dollars.
No I'm not. Never saw that one. But can you imagine them not resorting
to such measures with their people malnourished, sick and without
medical care because of the blockade?
>
> I'm just *sure* it was all going to feed the suffering masses.
Surely with the food. They're struggling to get enough food INTO Gaza.
Do you expect them to try to sell rice to the Egyptians on the black
market?
HHW
Israelis. Here it is again:
It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche. You
can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
pain. You're losing ground every time you do it. The 2006 Vandal
Invasion of Lebanon was a clear disaster for the Israelis, both
tactically opposite Hezbollah and strategically for the gratuitous
destruction of Lebanon. It sickened the whole world. It was the same
gratuitously criminal endeavor which has now been perpetrated AGAIN in
Gaza with the same fake public expression of goals, and the same
actually intended infliction of pain and death. "We Israelis stole
their land. After having done that we can't survive unless they fear
us. We know we can't keep doing this forever but we can't admit that
our ideology is a failure can we? And besides, good old America will
ALWAYS pick up the pieces for us. She has this immense reservoir of
Holocaust guilt. And now we now have a Holocaust Museum in every state
except Montana--or was it Alaska?We and our lobby can keep
manufacturing it forever!"
Ariadne
> You obviously didn't understand it why gaza was no victory for the
> Israelis. Here it is again:
>
> It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche. You
> can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
> pain. You're losing ground every time you do it. The 2006 Vandal
> Invasion of Lebanon was a clear disaster for the Israelis,
That's why Hizbshaitan has left Israel alone since!
Ariadne
> their land.
Rubbish!
What really happened in the Middle East:
HHW
But you don't really reply on point. You are hostile to the Hamas
Bunny technique but pass over whatever indoctrination this vile young
man was subjected to. Wherein lies the dimes worth of difference? It
wasn't just four letter words he was spewing. It was absolute hate.
HHW
Is that why Israel attacked Lebanon herself with hundreds and hundred
bombing sorties hitting even gas stations in the north of the country?
It's purpose in that was to deter Hezbollah?
HHW
Why don't you tell us yourself, Ariadne.
BTW, how is the Irish economy doing?
HHW
The Israeli patriotic narrative, unaltered by history written during
the last twenty years based on Israel's archives, with subtitles.
Paraphrased, "The bride is beautiful but she is betrothed to another
man."
Leo Sgouros
> On Feb 7, 4:06 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 4, 10:58 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > <snip>> > On Feb 4, 1:32 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 4, 1:21 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Feb 4, 12:14 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 4, 11:56 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Feb 4, 1:39 am, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 3, 10:50 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > <snipped>
>
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmv7s-Q0J8
>
> > The difference betweenthosekids and Mel Gibson is he is famous.The
> > rants sound similar.
>
> But you don't really reply on point.
Getting into a tangent about drunken rants about Jesus pretty much
strays from the point anyway.
>You are hostile to the Hamas
> Bunny technique
I am hostile to those extremely young kids being used in that manner.
>but pass over whatever indoctrination this vile young
> man was subjected to. Wherein lies the dimes worth of difference? It
> wasn't just four letter words he was spewing. It was absolute hate.
You arent interested in isues about the Palestinians, you are grinding
an axe, HHW.If you cant see the difference in the videos, understand
that your "techniques" are on about zionist occupiers- essentially x-
rated and on the best of days, a flat out ugly discussion among
adults, and worse.
HHW
> On Feb 7, 8:16 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 4:06 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 4, 10:58 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > <snip>> > On Feb 4, 1:32 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Feb 4, 1:21 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 4, 12:14 pm, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Feb 4, 11:56 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 4, 1:39 am, Leo Sgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Feb 3, 10:50 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > <snipped>
>
> > > > > How was this young man broughtup, Leo?
>
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmv7s-Q0J8
>
> > > The difference betweenthosekids and Mel Gibson is he is famous.The
> > > rants sound similar.
>
> > But you don't really reply on point.
>
> Getting into a tangent about drunken rants about Jesus pretty much
> strays from the point anyway.
I disagree. I think it emblematic of the great need for determined
outside intervention in this struggle. It has to be ended.
> >You are hostile to the Hamas
> > Bunny technique
>
> I am hostile to those extremely young kids being used in that manner.
Of course, so am I. But it represents accurately what the struggle for
Palestine over the last hundred years has brought the region to. My
point was that the the creation of prejudice and hatred on the Jewish
side of the divide is just as systematic and intense. In fact if you
stay here a while you'll see that prejudice acted out every day by
people like Deborah, Ariadne and the idiot DoD.
> >but pass over whatever indoctrination this vile young
> > man was subjected to. Wherein lies the dimes worth of difference? It
> > wasn't just four letter words he was spewing. It was absolute hate.
>
> You arent interested in isues about the Palestinians,
Of course I am, and in the Israelis too, but they are both secondary.
I come to it as an American interested first in the welfare of my own
country. America has suffered far more in ensuring the security of
Israel than Israel herself has. And it's been unnecessary, based on a
stubbornness spawned in part by our very solicitude. And in another
part by the impunity enforced by the lobby.
you are grinding
> an axe, HHW.
Yes, I'm very tired of our being in this perpetual mess in the Middle
East and being unable to do anything about it. We should long since
have simply told the Israelis that they have a choice---they can
continue the occupation and refuse to settle with the Palestinians on
terms which comport with the American interest or they can have a long
term defensive alliance and support from the United States, but they
can't have both. Perhaps you can help me understand why that policy
would be too much to ask of our Israeli allies.
If you cant see the difference in the videos, understand
> that your "techniques" are on about zionist occupiers-
I see the distinction you point out but think that it does not
constitute a significant difference. That young man had been subjected
to an equal and opposite system of conditioning on the Israeli side of
the divide. He isn't just a callow youth, he is a full fledged hater
at the age of eighteen. The systems in that region are out of control.
The occupation, Leo, IS at the heart of it. The occupation is without
question Zionist in the expansionist sense. If you are going to
attempt to shame me out of using the words "Zionist occupiers" or out
of describing what has been done as unjustified oppression of the
Palestinian people, that's your right and I'll listen to you
carefully. But in the meantime it's still clear that America is paying
a huge price for the supine NATURE of our relationship with Israel.
We've now fought three wars connected with her interests in the
region. She is said to be considering a fourth against Iran even
though her lobbying effort to have us do it for her seems to have been
blocked by the U.S. intelligence community. If this happens we will
probably be unable to avoid complicity and the situation for us will
get much, much worse. America must change her policy in the Middle
East but will not be able to accomplish it until the grip of the
Israel lobby on our Congress and administrative apparatus is loosened.
There is no way I can contribute to that without open criticism of the
lobby and of Israeli policy which I believe has been brutal and
selfish and unnecessary. She already has nearly 80% of Palestine and
there is an awful future in front of us if she insists on more.
essentially x-
> rated and on the best of days, a flat out ugly discussion among
> adults, and worse.
Yes, the tone and much of the substance has become very ugly. I detest
it but occasionally am goaded into participating in it. The flesh is
weak. I could leave of course. But that wouldn't change the nature of
these newsgroups. I can also tough it out and wait for a new era in
which everyone indulges only in the most rarified academic exchanges
about ideology and history and human rights. In any event I'm not
likely to depart though I'll probably consider changing how I approach
it. The country is in the midst of the most serious crisis since WWII.
I can make a tiny contribution by pointing out where we've gone wrong
and what we need to do to correct it. I'm read by hundreds every week.
It's something.
I hope it's not true but I sense that your half life in this snake pit
will be short.
Leo Sgouros
//////////////////////////////////////
"My Will is That You Tell Our Beloved Children Never to Forget Jerusalem...,
Al-Aqsa, the Prisoners, or the Refugees... Tell Them Assud Died a Martyr's
Death"
"Saraa, my will is that you tell our beloved children never to forget
Jerusalem, Saraa. You must pass this legacy on to our beloved children. They
must never forget Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa, the prisoners, or the refugees.
"Remind them, Saraa, that we have a land to which we must return, by means
of the steadfastness of the resistance and the mujahideen, by means of the
steadfastness of knowledge and the fear of God. Tell them that Assud died as
a hero, as a martyr. Tell them that Assud died a martyr's death,
Saraa."[...]
"We Should Teach Our Children That We Have a Land to Which We Must Return:
Jaffa, Acre, Haifa, and Tel Aviv"
"We should teach our children that we have a land to which we must return:
Jaffa, Acre, Haifa, and Tel Aviv. We will return to all these cities, Allah
willing.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The MEANS .
///////////
. My
point was that the the creation of prejudice and hatred on the Jewish
side of the divide is just as systematic and intense. In fact if you
stay here a while you'll see that prejudice acted out every day by
people like Deborah, Ariadne and the idiot DoD.
/////////////////////
I am not commenting on those posters.Suffice it to say I have problems with
that thing we have here "Jesus Camp"..
////////////////
I have been on here on and off since 98.I am using my real name.Even when I
havent , it wasnt to hide who I was but changing a nym to suit a posting
"mode".I am going to addres the only thing relevant to these groups and you
and I .I dont engage in discussions about "zionism" or even who started the
whole thing, it never ends and proof is continuing to flog this horse.I made
breif mention "renaming earth ZION" in a series of sarcastic posts to the
first holocaust denier I ran into, Dave Sharp.I dont know to this day if he
is real or it is just he took it as his "duty" as a usent performance artist
to keep pushing the envelope, people do that.Having said that, to sum up.
I originally mentioned Hamas was acting like barbarians, posted a link to a
thread showing how long the whole rocket thing had really been going on, and
a link to a vid where young kids were being fed what was essentially
propaganda about "zionism" and then in this thread.On the other hand, a guy
named Avigdor Lieberman is running in the imminent Israeli election that
people have been saying you go to hell to vote for that one.This is missing
from the various factions makiing up the Palestinian authorities, this kind
of strong criticism within.But look who spoke up!
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=84673§ionid=351020202
Zev
I doubt if anyone will admit it,
but I've believed that ever since it happened.
As it became clear to the government how ill prepared
the IDF was for that kind of war,
they made sure that the defeat wouldn't be one-sided.
I don't blame them, they didn't have much choice.
Zev
You may find the following MEMRI article interesting and enlightening.
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=IA49209
HHW
I thought I'd add this piece by Jonathan Cook to our conversation
about the videos:
Did the Israeli army wage a Jewish jihad in Gaza?
Religious extremists' rapid rise through the ranks
By Jonathan Cook in Nazareth
5 February 2009
Jonathan Cook looks at the growing influence of extremist, right-wing
rabbis and their followers in the Israeli army and assesses their role
in suspected war crimes in Gaza.
Extremist rabbis and their followers, bent on waging holy war against
the Palestinians, are taking over the Israeli army by stealth,
according to critics.
In a process one military historian has termed the rapid
“theologization” of the Israeli army, there are now entire units of
religious combat soldiers, many of them based in West Bank
settlements. They answer to hardline rabbis who call for the
establishment of a Greater Israel that includes the occupied
Palestinian territories.
Their influence in shaping the army’s goals and methods is starting to
be felt, say observers, as more and more graduates from officer
courses are also drawn from Israel’s religious extremist population.
“We have reached the point where a critical mass of religious soldiers
is trying to negotiate with the army about how and for what purpose
military force is employed on the battlefield,” said Yigal Levy, a
political sociologist at the Open University who has written several
books on the Israeli army.
The new atmosphere was evident in the “excessive force” used in the
recent Gaza operation, Dr Levy said. More than 1,300 Palestinians were
killed, a majority of them civilians, and thousands were injured as
whole neighbourhoods of Gaza were levelled.
“When soldiers, including secular ones, are imbued with theological
ideas, it makes them less sensitive to human rights or the suffering
of the other side.”
The greater role of extremist religious groups in the army came to
light last week when it emerged that the army rabbinate had handed out
a booklet to soldiers preparing for the recent 22-day Gaza offensive.
Yesh Din, an Israeli human rights group, said the material contained
messages “bordering on racist incitement against the Palestinian
people” and might have encouraged soldiers to ignore international
law.
The booklet quotes extensively from Shlomo Aviner, a far-right rabbi
who heads a religious seminary in the Muslim quarter of East
Jerusalem. He compares the Palestinians to the Philistines, the
Biblical enemy of the Jews.
He advises: “When you show mercy to a cruel enemy, you are being cruel
to pure and honest soldiers... This is a war on murderers.” He also
cites a Biblical ban on “surrendering a single millimetre” of Greater
Israel.
The booklet was approved by the army’s chief rabbi, Brigadier-General
Avichai Ronsky, who is reportedly determined to improve the army’s
“combat values” after its failure to crush Hizbollah in Lebanon in
2006.
General Ronsky was appointed three years ago in a move designed,
according to the Israeli media, to placate hardline religious elements
within the army and the settler community.
Gen Ronsky, himself a settler in the West Bank community of Itimar,
near Nablus, is close to far-right groups. According to reports, he
pays regular visits to jailed members of Jewish terror groups; he has
offered his home to a settler who is under house arrest for wounding
Palestinians; and he has introduced senior officers to a small group
of extremist settlers who live among more than 150,000 Palestinians in
Hebron.
He has also radically overhauled the rabbinate, which was originally
founded to offer religious services and ensure religious soldiers were
able to observe the sabbath and eat kosher meals in army canteens.
Over the past year the rabbinate has effectively taken over the role
of the army’s education corps through its Jewish Awareness Department,
which coordinates its activities with Elad, a settler organization
that is active in East Jerusalem.
In October, the Haaretz newspaper quoted an unnamed senior officer who
accused the rabbinate of carrying out the religious and political
“brainwashing” of troops.
Dr Levy said the army rabbinate’s power was growing as the ranks of
religious soldiers swelled.
“Breaking the Silence”, a project run by soldiers seeking to expose
the army’s behaviour against Palestinians, said the booklet handed out
to troops in Gaza had originated among Hebron’s settlers.
“The document has been around since at least 2003,” said Mikhael
Manekin, 29, one of the group’s directors and himself religiously
observant. “But what is new is that the army has been effectively
subcontracted to promote the views of the extremist settlers to its
soldiers.”
The power of the religious right in the army reflected wider social
trends inside Israel, Dr Levy said. He pointed out that the rural
cooperatives known as kibbutzim that were once home to Israel’s
secular middle classes and produced the bulk of its officer corps had
been on the wane since the early 1980s.
“The vacuum left by their gradual retreat from the army was filled by
religious youngsters and by the children of the settlements. They now
dominate in many branches of the army.”
According to figures cited in the Israeli media, more than one-third
of all Israel’s combat soldiers are religious, as are more than 40 per
cent of those graduating from officer courses.
The army has encouraged this trend by creating some two dozen hesder
yeshivas, seminaries in which youths can combine Biblical studies with
army service in separate religious units. Many of the yeshivas are
based in the West Bank, where students are educated by the
settlements’ extremist rabbis.
Ehud Barak, the defence minister, has rapidly expanded the programme,
approving four yeshivas, three based in settlements, last summer.
Another 10 are reportedly awaiting his approval.
Mr Manekin, however, warned against blaming the violence inflicted on
Gaza’s civilians solely on the influence of religious extremists.
“The army is still run by the secular elites in Israel and they have
always been reckless with regard to the safety of civilians when they
wage war. Jewish nationalism that justifies Palestinian deaths is just
as dangerous as religious extremism.”
Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel.
His latest book is “Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in
Human Despair” (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net. A version
of this article originally appeared in The National, published in Abu
Dhabi.
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:23b11cad-470f-471b...@v42g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 9:01 pm,LeoSgouros <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 8:16 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > > On Feb 4, 10:58 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 4, 1:21 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 4, 11:56 am, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
He did, indeed, if just a bit obscurely. Thanks for showing me this:
Mubarak attacks Hamas over Gaza war
Thu, 05 Feb 2009 02:01:37 GMT
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has taken sides with Israel, blamed
Hamas for the massacre of hundreds of Palestinians in the Gaza War.
"How long will Arab blood continue to be spilled, only to hear those
who admit to miscalculating the scope and scale of Israel's response?"
Mubarak said.
He made the remarks with regard to the 23-day Israeli war, which
killed at least 1,330 people including almost 500 children.
"The resistance must take into account victories and losses,” said the
president. "It is responsible for the people, who in turn should
settle the score [with the resistance] over the gains it has achieved,
but also the sacrifices, the pain and the destruction it has caused."
Mubarak also alleged that "They (Hamas and other Palestinian factions)
are trying to take advantage of Israeli aggression to force a new
reality on the current Palestinian and Arab situation. A new reality
that will alter the equation and reorganize the balance in favor of
known regional powers and will serve their agenda."
Egypt kept the Rafah border-crossing closed during the Gaza war and
after the war, it prevented humanitarian aid supplies from freely
entering into the besieged Gaza Strip.
Cairo also reportedly misled Hamas before the start of the Gaza war
and ensured that Tel Aviv was not to begin a war against Hamas. The
misinformation raised the number of casualties Israel inflicted on
Hamas during the first day of the war.
SB/RE
Count 1
> You obviously didn't understand it why gaza was no victory for the
> Israelis. Here it is again:
I got it the first time. What you continue to fail to understand is your
nonsense filled, opinionated rants are worthless.
Let me point out why;
> It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche. You
> can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
> pain.
In the second sentence you make a bizarre blunder. All wars are won through
inflicting greater levels of pain. If you need evidence, look to all of
human history.
And, as I've pointed out to you and you decided not to respond, the fact
that Israel is not willing to engage in the levels of pain necessary to
finally defeat Hamas militarily speaks to Israel's moral righteousness.
In fact, you should be congratulating Israel on her 'defeat', it means
Israel didn't slaughter the civilians Hamas was hiding behind.
How do you reconcile the dichotomy between admonishing Israel for a
slaughter you believe she couldn't have done if you believe she is the
loser?
Count 1
On Feb 7, 1:50 pm, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7d2f168d-3286-4537...@t3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 8:34 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ***
> > The Plestinians haven't been
> > definitively crushed yet have they? In fact they've won the last two
> > battles and the whole world is catching on to the Israeli Zionist
> > scam.
> > ****
>
> > Here is a quick AP report on Zahar's remergence. In it Tipsy will read
> > how
> > Hamas has caused all UN Aid shipments to stop when they stole 10 trucks
> > of
> > Aid, in a seperate incident to the thousands of blankets and hundreds of
> > rice packets they stole earlier in the week.
The UN will feed the Palestinian people. That's their mission. And
Hamas is a social welfare operation in addition to being a Resistance
militia.
***
Don't forget the facts in front of you - they're also theives.
***
In that they have a good reputation. I've no doubt that the
blankets and rice packets were distributed quickly and fairly.
***
They're modern day Robin Hoods! If Robin Hood was stealing the welfare
payments to the peasants and then redistributing them according to his own
brand of what's 'fair'.
> ***
> Whence this reluctance? Could Israel have something to do with that?
> ***
>
> Of course Tipsy, in your world Israel has something to do with
> *everything*.
Not at all, she has little to do with the qualities I admire most:
humanity, democracy, due process, willingness to keep her promises,
candor.
****
ROFLMAO - Tipsy - I can assure you with absolutely 100% certainty, no one
this board would suggest those are qualities you admire most.
> ***
> How could the money be misused by prisoners in a concentration camp?
> Perhaps you're such defective right winger as to have given up on
> trickle down theory.
> ***
>
> Please read the story at the link.
***
I'll settle for your characterization of it. I almost never chase
links unless I'm really interested.
***
You can't avoid displaying ignorance, but you should try harder to avoid
directly admitting you are ignorant. Learn to think for yourself, you're far
too reliant on other people's 'characterizations'.
>>There is no mention of money in it.
***
The comment above "rebuilding funds" must have misled me.
***
You got confused because you're lazy and sloppy.
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:896db7ac-c212-4e40...@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > You obviously didn't understand it why gaza was no victory for the
> > Israelis. Here it is again:
It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche. You
can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
pain. (There are too many non-moral constraints) You're losing ground
(globally) every time you do it. The 2006 Vandal Invasion of Lebanon
was a clear disaster for the Israelis, both tactically opposite
Hezbollah and strategically for the gratuitous destruction of Lebanon.
It sickened the whole world. It was the same gratuitously criminal
endeavor which has now been perpetrated AGAIN in Gaza with the same
fake public expression of goals, and the same actually intended
infliction of pain and death. "We Israelis stole their land. After
having done that we can't survive unless they fear us. We know we
can't keep doing this forever but we can't admit that our ideology is
a failure can we? And besides, good old Goy America will ALWAYS pick
up the pieces for us. She has this immense reservoir of Holocaust
guilt. And we now have a Holocaust Museum in every state except
Montana--or was it Alaska? We and our lobby can keep manufacturing it
forever!"
> I got it the first time.
But you fail to respond. You've clipped it twice now in order to avoid
coming to grips with it. It's too sensitive for you to talk about in
public because if goes close to the heart of the entire enterprise.
It's taboo but that's failing. The rest of us have no choice but to
talk about it, to shed light upon it. It's not pleasant to have to do
that because it attracts the lobby's militia here in America, the
people such as you whose arrogant racism self-justifies doing anything
to shut down public discussion of the roots of the present
relationship between Arab and Jew in the Middle East.
>What you continue to fail to understand is your nonsense filled, opinionated rants are worthless.
It's the free expression of unsanctioned opinion on this subject which
you without response define as "nonsense" and "worthless". You never
argue it. You can't. You simply attack. All I have to do is turn it
against you while keeping my eye on the ball. You're the perfect foil,
Ratner.
I've been reading Atzmon. He has recently taken stock of his personal
point of view on the problem posed by Israel's oppression of the
Palestinians. I urge you to engage Gilad Atzmon whose analysis I
posted a half hour ago. It's not complex conceptually. It's simply
anti-racism. I will be happy to discuss that with you.
> Let me point out why;
>
> > It is so widespread a view that it's already become a cliche. You
> > can't win this war through the infliction of ever greater levels of
> > pain.
>
> In the second sentence you make a bizarre blunder. All wars are won through
> inflicting greater levels of pain. If you need evidence, look to all of
> human history.
You speak of human history? YOU? You've shown no interest in the
subject before, and no knowledge of it either. Nevertheless what you
say here is an astounding admission as the the basic Israeli policy.
It's not "security,' it's the infliction of such great pain over such
an extended period of time that the Palestinian people will give up
their claims to Palestine and either leave or embrace the humiliations
of the bantustan life style. What's going to be very difficult for you
to do is to explain your theory as to why Israel should have the right
to do this. I urge you to look at the Atzmon explanation.
What you also display is a characteristic contempt for context. As Ben-
Gurion said, It's not what the Goy World thinks which matters, it's
what the Jews do.
r
> And, as I've pointed out to you and you decided not to respond, the fact
> that Israel is not willing to engage in the levels of pain necessary to
> finally defeat Hamas militarily speaks to Israel's moral righteousness.
It is moral righteousness which is on display when we look at the
successive maps showing the stages in which Israel has taken over the
Palestinian homeland? This is what we see as we watch the wall being
constructed and the settlements ever-expanding in the last 20% of the
West Bank? Or is it pure Israeli racism coupled with America's loss of
control over her foreign policy in the Middle East?
> In fact, you should be congratulating Israel on her 'defeat', it means
> Israel didn't slaughter the civilians Hamas was hiding behind.
I've analyzed this argument elsewhere recently and don't want to
repeat it. Hamas retreating into the cities was militarily inevitable,
Israel knew it and had long before decided that taking the urban
areas would be too expensive in terms of casualties. They incurred 14,
half of which were inflicted by themselves, and that was enough. They
withdrew right on the American Presidential timetable. So clever of
them, eh? What's left of "intention"? Simply trashing Gaza. Inflicting
pain. And this from the "most moral army in the world".
> How do you reconcile the dichotomy between admonishing Israel for a
> slaughter you believe she couldn't have done if you believe she is the
> loser?
Winners and losers are determined at two levels, tactical and
strategic. Here the analysis is made in a global context to which you
display an amazing arrogance. We can talk about it but I'm on my way
our for a brisk six mile walk in the sparkling sunshine.
Count 1
***
But you fail to respond. You've clipped it twice now in order to avoid
coming to grips with it.
***
>What you continue to fail to understand is your nonsense filled,
>opinionated rants are worthless.
> Let me point out why;
> In the second sentence you make a bizarre blunder. All wars are won
> through
> inflicting greater levels of pain. If you need evidence, look to all of
> human history.
***
Nevertheless what you
say here is an astounding admission as the the basic Israeli policy.
***
Nope. What I say here is that war's are won through inflicting greater
levels of pain. Still having comprehension problems I see. Israeli policy is
not under discussion right now, your stunningly inaccurate statement is the
topic.
***
It's not "security,' it's the infliction of such great pain over such
an extended period of time that the Palestinian people will give up
their claims to Palestine and either leave or embrace the humiliations
of the bantustan life style.
***
Israeli policy is peace for land. The devil is in the details, but Israeli
policy doesn't look anything like you describe. Given your obvious
comprehension problems I don't know why you'd think an analysis of Israeli
policy is something you can detail.
> And, as I've pointed out to you and you decided not to respond, the fact
> that Israel is not willing to engage in the levels of pain necessary to
> finally defeat Hamas militarily speaks to Israel's moral righteousness.
***
It is moral righteousness which is on display when we look at the
successive maps showing the stages in which Israel has taken over the
Palestinian homeland? This is what we see as we watch the wall being
constructed and the settlements ever-expanding in the last 20% of the
West Bank? Or is it pure Israeli racism coupled with America's loss of
control over her foreign policy in the Middle East?
***
Is it possible for you to ask a question which follows logically from the
preceding statement?Here I am saying Israel's moral righteousness over Hamas
is demonstrated by her recent Gaza operation, specifically her unwillingness
to engage in the kind of slaughter Hamas's cowardly tactics demand to enact
a clear military victory over them. Do you agree, yes or no?
> In fact, you should be congratulating Israel on her 'defeat', it means
> Israel didn't slaughter the civilians Hamas was hiding behind.
***
I've analyzed this argument elsewhere recently and don't want to
repeat it. Hamas retreating into the cities was militarily inevitable,
***
Pure, unmitigated Bullshit. Hamas had every opportunity to engage their
enemies in a manner that limited civilian casualties. Not only did they
choose to fire from within populated areas long before IDF ground forces
entered, but they also chose to largely target civilians with their Qassams.
You can argue their retreat into the cities was inevitable based on the fact
that they are cowardly losers willing to sacrifice their own children and
hide behind their own women, but that hardly elevates them in my eyes.
***
Israel knew it and had long before decided that taking the urban
areas would be too expensive in terms of casualties.
***
Yet you continue to accuse them of a 'slaughter' and a 'massacre'.
***
They incurred 14,
half of which were inflicted by themselves, and that was enough. They
withdrew right on the American Presidential timetable. So clever of
them, eh? What's left of "intention"? Simply trashing Gaza. Inflicting
pain. And this from the "most moral army in the world".
***
Who called them that? I said their moreal righteousness over Hamas is
proven.
But then that really isn't saying much, is it? Hamas has as much moral
righteousness as a Jeffrey Dahmer. Literally - murderous cannibalism is a
good descriptor for Hamas's rule.
> How do you reconcile the dichotomy between admonishing Israel for a
> slaughter you believe she couldn't have done if you believe she is the
> loser?
***
Winners and losers are determined at two levels, tactical and
strategic.
***
Oh, so you don't reconcile the dichotomy, you just change the definition of
what 'loser' means. I've asked this before, do you have a definition of
victory that wouldn't allow any loser to claim it?
Zev
> On Feb 8, 7:50 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:896db7ac-c212-4e40...@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> You speak of human history? YOU? You've shown no interest in the
> subject before, and no knowledge of it either. Nevertheless what you
> say here is an astounding admission as the the basic Israeli policy.
> It's not "security,' it's the infliction of such great pain over such
> an extended period of time that the Palestinian people will give up
> their claims to Palestine and either leave or embrace the humiliations
> of the bantustan life style. What's going to be very difficult for you
> to do is to explain your theory as to why Israel should have the right
> to do this. I urge you to look at the Atzmon explanation.
As humiliations go, it's not all that bad.
Those who live in Gaza or Jordan are self-governing.
Those who live in Israel are full citizens of their country.
Most of those who live in the West Bank
are governed by their own PA.
80% of 1922 Palestine is Arab governed.
I don't say they have no right to wish for more
than they can get peacefully.
Wars have been fought for less.
But maybe it's time for decent people like you
to tell them enough is enough.
> What you also display is a characteristic contempt for context. As Ben-
> Gurion said, It's not what the Goy World thinks which matters, it's
> what the Jews do.
This is what most citizens of every country think.
This is what most politicians tell them.
But do you really believe that Ben-Gurion made
important decisions without taking
world opinion into consideration?
Do you believe that any Israeli PM makes
important decisions without taking
world opinion into consideration?
> > And, as I've pointed out to you and you decided not to respond, the fact
> > that Israel is not willing to engage in the levels of pain necessary to
> > finally defeat Hamas militarily speaks to Israel's moral righteousness.
>
> It is moral righteousness which is on display when we look at the
> successive maps showing the stages in which Israel has taken over the
> Palestinian homeland? This is what we see as we watch the wall being
> constructed and the settlements ever-expanding in the last 20% of the
> West Bank? Or is it pure Israeli racism coupled with America's loss of
> control over her foreign policy in the Middle East?
Communities are living things.
You cannot stop them from growing.
Do you think you can stop Palestinian towns from growing?
> > In fact, you should be congratulating Israel on her 'defeat', it means
> > Israel didn't slaughter the civilians Hamas was hiding behind.
>
> I've analyzed this argument elsewhere recently and don't want to
> repeat it. Hamas retreating into the cities was militarily inevitable,
> Israel knew it and had long before decided that taking the urban
> areas would be too expensive in terms of casualties. They incurred 14,
> half of which were inflicted by themselves, and that was enough. They
> withdrew right on the American Presidential timetable. So clever of
> them, eh? What's left of "intention"? Simply trashingGaza. Inflicting
> pain. And this from the "most moral army in the world".
The other possibility was a full-fledged conquest of Gaza.
Many Israelis thought that was going to happen,
and apparently would have preferred it,
in the hope that this would have solved
the kassam problem once and for all.
Apparently, even you would have preferred
the resulting blood-bath to the recent war in Gaza
because it would have been war, fought fair and square.
You give Israel 2 choices:
1) ignore terrorist attacks, which demoralize
and disrupt entire populations.
2) destroy itself financially in an attempt to destroy Hamas
without harming the "innocent".
dsharavi
>>Mr HHW
>>Like you rightfully call it it is the TEMPLE Mount
>>Temple of the JEWS ,,,,,
>>HHW wrote:
>>>And I can't convince myself that left to their own discretion the
>>>Israelis can be trusted with the Temple Mount. Both sides contain
>>>fanatics and it's probable that neither is suitable for this task.
>>>Perhaps a committee of Rastafarians would be laid back enough to adopt
>>>a hands off policy.
>>And still in 1967 when we came back to it , the government ordered to
>>respect and not touch any part that was Holly to another Faith. While
>>the Wakf deliberately digs under and into the Mount, unobserved by
>>professional archeologists and they throw out all artifacts that are
>>related to other faiths ..
"Elizabeth Buckwalter" <elizabu...@gmail.com>wrote:
>Why aren't you concerned about Israel digging under the Al Aqsa mosque?
Correction: It's the Arabs who are digging under Temple Mount, and
destroying Jewish and Christian artifacts in the process. But
obviously you don’t give a rat’s tush over that.
Deborah
dsharavi
> Youspeak of human history?YOU?You've shown no interest in the
> subject before, and no knowledge of it either.
The same may be said, with far more accuracy, of Hunter's grasp of the
MIddle East and its histry.
> Whatyoualso display is a characteristic contempt for context. As Ben-
> Gurion said, It's not what the Goy World thinks which matters, it's
> what the Jews do.
LOL, the "Goy World"? You bloody liar.
Deborah
Elizabeth Buckwalter
"dsharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:668b58ff-c63b-4f2b...@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
><mir...@actcom.co.il>wrote
>>Mr HHW
>>Like you rightfully call it it is the TEMPLE Mount
>>Temple of the JEWS ,,,,,
>>HHW wrote:
>>>And I can't convince myself that left to their own discretion the
>>>Israelis can be trusted with the Temple Mount. Both sides contain
>>>fanatics and it's probable that neither is suitable for this task.
>>>Perhaps a committee of Rastafarians would be laid back enough to adopt
>>>a hands off policy.
>>And still in 1967 when we came back to it , the government ordered to
>>respect and not touch any part that was Holly to another Faith. While
>>the Wakf deliberately digs under and into the Mount, unobserved by
>>professional archeologists and they throw out all artifacts that are
>>related to other faiths ..
"Elizabeth Buckwalter" <elizabu...@gmail.com>wrote:
>Why aren't you concerned about Israel digging under the Al Aqsa mosque?
>Correction: It's the Arabs who are digging under Temple Mount,
No it is not. The Jews have been excavating the area for well over a year.
They are supposedly "improving" walkways, but we all know they are hoping
the whole lot will collapse.