Were the Cathars Khazars ?
Geiserik
When around 620aC the Khazars annexed the last Zoroastric stronghold of
the Sasanids in Caucasian Albania, a melting pot became boiling of
Jewish, Orthodoc, Zoroastric, Manichean Elkasaitic Essenic and Jacobite
believings, on which Silvanes short after reformed his Paulicism . It
spread around rapidly in Anatolia, Persia and the Caucasian mountains.
After the Jewish conversion of the Khazars in 740aC, Paulicism,
because of their celebration of the Sabbath, became the main stream of
Christianity in tolerant Khazaria.
A similar puritan Moslim stream were called Kharijites in Bagdad.
(Salians in the Coran)
The Khazars became known in Hungria in Europe under the name of
Cazzars, after the Khazar backed invasion of the Maygars.
Under the Khazar emperors on the Byzantine throne, Leo III , the
Iconeclaster,etc., Paulician farmers settled themselves after 750aC in
the Balkan, what they called Albania as well.
With the return of the Orthodox emperors on the Byzantine throne, the
Paulicians were deported to Thracia twice in 870 as prisioners of war
and in 970 as a military buffer against the Bulgars, who called them
after their priests Bogomils, men of God.
After the fall of Khazaria, the Jews swarmed as Askhenazi (Khazars from
Asov) and the Paulician Christians as Cazzars to the west, where they
got from Frederic II the so called "Gazari assyl". Gazari became in
Italy and France the name for the Albigenses (from Albania): Cathari.
There was a Cathar concily where a Bogomil bishop ordenated 7 Cathar
priests and converted 2000 people into Cathars.
The remnants of the Cathars, after the Cathar crusade, returned
eastwards to the countries where Bogomils and Paulicians still were
tolerated: Moslim Bosnia and Khanate Kazan of the Mongols.
Khazar Cathar, Ketzer, Paulician Bogomils: its all in the same name.
My documentated, not yet by historici accepted, theory, is available
on:
http://groups.msn.com/MormonsHistoricalRevival
Reageren »
dsha...@gmail.com
> When around 620aC the Khazars annexed the last Zoroastric stronghold of
> the Sasanids in Caucasian Albania, a melting pot became boiling of
> Jewish, Orthodoc, Zoroastric, Manichean Elkasaitic Essenic and Jacobite
> believings, on which Silvanes short after reformed his Paulicism . It
> spread around rapidly in Anatolia, Persia and the Caucasian mountains.
???
"The Khazars were a Turkic people who originated in Central Asia...The
earliest history of the Khazars in southern Russia, prior to the middle
of the 6th century, is hidden in obscurity. From about 550 to 630, the
Khazars were part of the Western Turkish Empire, ruled by the Celestial
Blue Turks (Kök Turks). When the Western Turkish Empire was broken up
as a result of civil wars in the middle of the 7th century, the Khazars
successfully asserted their independence. Yet, the Kök kaganate under
which they had lived provided the Khazars with their system of
government."
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> After the Jewish conversion of the Khazars in 740aC,
c838. And it's uncertain whether the conversion of the Khazars
comprised more than the upper classes.
"Under the leadership of kings Bulan and Obadiah, the standard
rabbinical form of the Jewish religion spread among the Khazars. King
Bulan adopted Judaism in approximately the year 838, after supposedly
holding a debate between representatives of the Jewish, Christian, and
Muslim faiths. The Khazar nobility and many of the common people also
became Jews. King Obadiah later established synagogues and Jewish
schools in Khazaria. The books of the Mishnah, Talmud, and Torah thus
became important to many Khazars.
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
>Paulicism,
> because of their celebration of the Sabbath, became the main stream of
> Christianity in tolerant Khazaria.
"Saint Cyril came to Khazaria in 860 in a Byzantine attempt to convert
the Khazars to Christianity, but he was unsuccessful in converting them
away from Judaism. He did, however, convince many of the Slavs to adopt
[Greek Orthodox] Christianity."
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> A similar puritan Moslim stream were called Kharijites in Bagdad.
> (Salians in the Coran)
The Kharijites (Khawarij) emerged during the first Islamic civil war
656-661 from those who rejected both candidates for the caliphate. They
believed in the equality of all Muslims and in spreading Islam by the
sword.
> The Khazars became known in Hungria in Europe under the name of
> Cazzars, after the Khazar backed invasion of the Maygars.
What "Khazar-backed invasion of the Magyars"?
"The Khazars had their greatest power over other tribes in the 9th
century, controlling eastern Slavs, Magyars, Pechenegs, Burtas, North
Caucasian Huns, and other tribes and demanding tribute from them."
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> Under the Khazar emperors on the Byzantine throne, Leo III , the
> Iconeclaster,etc.,
What "Khazar emperors on the Byzantine throne"?
"The Crimean Jewish communities were later supplemented by refugee Jews
fleeing the Mazdaq rebellion in Persia, the persecutions of Byzantine
emperors LEO III and Romanus I Lecapenus, and for a variety of other
reasons."
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
>Paulician farmers settled themselves after 750aC in
> the Balkan, what they called Albania as well.
> With the return of the Orthodox emperors on the Byzantine throne, the
> Paulicians were deported to Thracia twice in 870 as prisioners of war
> and in 970 as a military buffer against the Bulgars, who called them
> after their priests Bogomils, men of God.
"Bogomilism is the Gnostic dualistic sect, the synthesis of Armenian
Paulicianism and the local Slavonic Church reform movement in Bulgaria
and Bosnia-Herzegovina between 950 and 1396 and in the Byzantine Empire
between 1018 and 1186. The now defunct Gnostic social-religious
movement and doctrine originated in the time of Peter I of Bulgaria
(927 – 969) as a reaction against state and clerical oppression. In
spite of all measures of repression, it remained strong and popular
until the fall of Bulgaria in the end of 14th century.
"It is difficult to ascertain whether the name was taken from the
reputed founder of that movement, priest Bogumil or Bogomil,
(Bulgarian: поп Богомил - 'поп' [pop] means literally
priest – father – in Bulgarian) or whether he assumed that name
after it had been given to the whole sect. The word is a direct
translation into Slavonic of Massaliani, the Syriac name of the sect
corresponding to the Greek Euchites. The Bogomils are identified with
the Massaliani in Slavonic documents of the 13th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils
> After the fall of Khazaria, the Jews swarmed as Askhenazi (Khazars from
> Asov)
Ashkenazim are European Jews descended from early Rhineland communities
who were largely descended from the ancient Jewish communities of
Italy, southern France, and Spain.
"A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000,
addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[10]
found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews
contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples,
but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that
the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the
Middle East."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#DNA_clues
>and the Paulician Christians as Cazzars to the west, where they
> got from Frederic II the so called "Gazari assyl". Gazari became in
> Italy and France the name for the Albigenses (from Albania): Cathari.
> There was a Cathar concily where a Bogomil bishop ordenated 7 Cathar
> priests and converted 2000 people into Cathars.
The Cathar, or Albigensian, movement originated in southern France.
> The remnants of the Cathars, after the Cathar crusade, returned
> eastwards to the countries where Bogomils and Paulicians still were
> tolerated: Moslim Bosnia and Khanate Kazan of the Mongols.
The Khazar Khaganate was eradicated in the 10th century. The Cathars
didn't appear until the 12th century, and were massacred and their
writings destroyed in the 13th century.
Deborah
Patricia Heil
Geiserik
Patricia Heil schreef:
Re: Were the Cathars Khazars ? NO the Cathars were Christians.
There were Christian Khazars as well, like the two Christiansin thehigh
court. (one Greek Ortodox and one Paulician ?)
My theorie in message no 1 does not say that the Cathars were Jews, but
Khazar Paulicians
(quote):
With the return of the Orthodox emperors on the Byzantine throne, the
Paulicians were deported to Thracia twice in 870 as prisioners of war
and in 970 as a military buffer against the Bulgars, who called them
after their priests Bogomils, men of God.
After the fall of Khazaria, the Jews swarmed as Askhenazi (Khazars from
Asov) and the Paulician Christians as Cazzars to the west, where they
got from Frederic II the so called "Gazari assyl". Gazari became in
Italy and France the name for the Albigenses (from Albania): Cathari.
There was a Cathar concily where a Bogomil bishop ordenated 7 Cathar
priests and converted 2000 people into Cathars.
(unquoted)
>
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#DNA_clues
my entire theory, fully documented, is available in Dutch on
> http://groups.msn.com/MormonsHistoricalRevival
it is based on the leading internetsites:
www.katharen.nl on the Cathars (Dutch)
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html on the Khazars (English)
www.ethesis.com /bogomilen on the Bogomils (Dutch)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulicians (English)
So there is no difference in cited articles, possibly in
interpretations, but my theory is that the Cathars were Khazar
Paulician Christians, who were called Bogomils in the Bulgar language.
I do not claim any expertise on the Jewish Khazars, which Deborah seems
to have, it only looked wise to me to test a new theory, which include
the Khazars, on this site.
Nico de Jongh
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> Geiserik wrote:
> > When around 629aC the Khazars annexed the last Zoroastric stronghold of
> > the Sasanids in Caucasian Albania, a melting pot became boiling
> ???
> "The Khazars were a Turkic people who originated in Central Asia...The
> earliest history of the Khazars in southern Russia, prior to the middle
> of the 6th century, is hidden in obscurity. From about 550 to 630, the
> Khazars were part of the Western Turkish Empire, ruled by the Celestial
> Blue Turks (Kök Turks). When the Western Turkish Empire was broken up
> as a result of civil wars in the middle of the 7th century, the Khazars
> successfully asserted their independence. Yet, the Kök kaganate under
> which they had lived provided the Khazars with their system of
> government."
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
My sentence is based on the Chronology of Azerbaijan History
(quote)
-------------------- Chronological Table --------------------
200 B.C - 400 A.D Kabala is a capital of Caucasian Albania
131-140 A.D. Ancestors of Khazars settle in the lower regions of rivers
Terek and Sulak
191-200 A.D. "Hordes of Barsiles and Khazars crossed Kura, but were
defeated by Alans"(Source: Moisey Kalankatly "History of Albans")
Benchmark event: 226 A.D. Sassanian dynasty established in Iran
(Non-Turkic)
381-390 A.D. Huns in Greece. Emperor Pheodosius invited Huns to join
his army.
391-400 A.D. Huns overrun Syria and Mesopothamia(Iraq). Huns supress
Gothish apraising in Byzantium.
400-600 A.D. Barda becomes capital of Caucasian Albania in VI century
A.D.
441-450 A.D. Reign of Attila
451-460 A.D. Huns invade Azerbaijan
461-470 A.D. Saragurs invade Azerbaijan
511-520 A.D. Sabirs attack Iran and Asia Minor(Anatolia)
551 A.D. Kuturgurs invade Byzantium
559 A.D. Second Kuturgur invasion of Byzantium
551-560 A.D. Sabirs and Khazars invade Azerbaijan, but defeated by
Sassanian Iran
589 A.D. Sassanian Iran defeats joint Byzantium-Khazar -Georgian
assault on Azerbaijan Benchmark Event: 593 A.D. peace between East and
West Kok-Turks, restablishment of Great Khaganate, (Kok-Turk Empire)
623 A.D. Byzantine Emperor Irakli invades Azerbaijan
626 A.D. Byzantine and Kok-Turk army surround Tbilisi
629 A.D. Army of Kok-Turk Empire and Khazars enter Azerbaijan
(Albania), defeating Persians. Azerbaijan is declared to be "eternal
possesion" of Turks. The capital of Albania - Kabala renamed into
Khazar. Albanian nobility and clergyman escape from Barda to the
Albanian stronghold - Mountaineous Karabagh. [Source: "History of
Albans" by Moisey Kalankatly] The next year both withdraw from
Azerbaijan due to internal strife within Empire.
(unquote)
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> Geiserik wrote:
the Jewish conversion of the Khazars in 740aC,
>
> c838. And it's uncertain whether the conversion of the Khazars
> comprised more than the upper classes.
>
> "Under the leadership of kings Bulan and Obadiah, the standard
> rabbinical form of the Jewish religion spread among the Khazars. King
> Bulan adopted Judaism in approximately the year 838, after supposedly
> holding a debate between representatives of the Jewish, Christian, and
> Muslim faiths. The Khazar nobility and many of the common people also
> became Jews. King Obadiah later established synagogues and Jewish
> schools in Khazaria. The books of the Mishnah, Talmud, and Torah thus
> became important to many Khazars.
I think I got my date first from Arthur Koestlers book and kept it as
it is close to the first setlements of Paulician farmers from Caucasian
Albania into new called Albaniain the Balkan.
Even the site preferred by you, thinks the 740aC date possible.
(quote)
Current Issues in Khazar StudiesWhen did the Khazars convert to
Judaism: 8th or 9th century? ... The earliest possible date is Yehuda
HaLevi's estimate of 740. www.khazaria.com/khazar-issues.html - 12k -
In cache - Gelijkwaardige pagina's
(unquote)
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> >Paulicism, because of their celebration of the Sabbath, became the main stream of
> > Christianity in tolerant Khazaria.
> "Saint Cyril came to Khazaria in 860 in a Byzantine attempt to convert
> the Khazars to Christianity, but he was unsuccessful in converting them
> away from Judaism. He did, however, convince many of the Slavs to adopt
> [Greek Orthodox] Christianity."
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
Saint Cyril has nothing to do with my theories, he did not make
converts in Khazaria. Christian Paulicism was restored and flowering by
Silvanes in Kibossa in Caucasian Albania, which was many cencuries part
of Khazaria. The Bogomils were just the Bulgar name for Paulician
priests, who made thousands of converts under the Bulgars, who were
anexed as well by the Khazars.There were two Christians in the Khazar
Surpreme Court, possibly 1 Greek Orthodox and 1 Paulician.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Paulicians Dualistic heretical sect.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/11583b.htm - 26k - In cache -
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> > The Khazars became known in Hungria in Europe under the name of
> > Cazzars, after the Khazar backed invasion of the Maygars.
>
> What "Khazar-backed invasion of the Magyars"?
>
> "The Khazars had their greatest power over other tribes in the 9th
> century, controlling eastern Slavs, Magyars, Pechenegs, Burtas, North
> Caucasian Huns, and other tribes and demanding tribute from them."
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
Hungarian History:
Several rebel Khazar tribes join the Hungarian tribal federation which
was led by the Magyar tribe. At that time the Hungarians were
established in their ...
members.fortunecity.com/magyarhun/magyar/id2.html - 38k -
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> Geiserik wrote:>
> What "Khazar emperors on the Byzantine throne"?
Leo III, Constantine V, Leo IV (the Khazar)
(quote from wikipedia)
Khazars and Byzantium
They are also known to have been allied with the Byzantine Empire
during at least part of the 700s. In 704/705 Justinian II, exiled in
Cherson, escaped into Khazar territory and married the sister of the
Khagan, Busir. With the aid of his wife, he escaped from Busir, who was
intriguing against him with the usurper Tiberius III, murdering two
Khazar officials in the process. He fled to Bulgaria, whose Khan Tervel
helped him regain the throne. The Khazars later provided aid to the
rebel general Bardanes, who seized the throne in 711 as Emperor
Philippicus.
The Byzantine emperor Leo III married his son Constantine (later
Constantine V Kopronymous) to the Khazar princess Tzitzak (daughter of
the Khagan Bihar) as part of the alliance between the two empires.
Tzitzak, who was baptized as Irene, became famous for her wedding gown,
which started a fashion craze in Constantinople for a type of robe (for
men) called tzitzakion. Their son Leo (Leo IV) would be better known as
"Leo the Khazar".
(unquote)
> "The Crimean Jewish communities were later supplemented by refugee Jews
> fleeing the Mazdaq rebellion in Persia, the persecutions of Byzantine
> emperors LEO III and Romanus I Lecapenus, and for a variety of other
> reasons."
> http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
Leo III had strong family and militaiy ties with the Khazars but not
the Jews and special not, when your date of the conversion (100
yearslater) is correct.
Again our differences are because you are talking about Khazar Jews and
I am talking about Khazar Paulicians.
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> >Paulician farmers settled themselves after 750aC in
> > the Balkan, what they called Albania as well.
> > With the return of the Orthodox emperors on the Byzantine throne, the
> > Paulicians were deported to Thracia twice in 870 as prisioners of war
> > and in 970 as a military buffer against the Bulgars, who called them
> > after their priests Bogomils, men of God.
> "Bogomilism is the Gnostic dualistic sect, the synthesis of Armenian
> Paulicianism and the local Slavonic Church reform movement in Bulgaria
> and Bosnia-Herzegovina between 950 and 1396 and in the Byzantine Empire
> between 1018 and 1186. The now defunct Gnostic social-religious
> movement and doctrine originated in the time of Peter I of Bulgaria
> (927 – 969) as a reaction against state and clerical oppression. In
> spite of all measures of repression, it remained strong and popular
> until the fall of Bulgaria in the end of 14th century.
I doubt this very much. In 870 and 950 the Paulicians were deported to
Thracië as a buffer against the approaching Bulgars, who were not
Christanised yet, but were by the Paulicians.
> "It is difficult to ascertain whether the name was taken from the
> reputed founder of that movement, priest Bogumil or Bogomil,
> (Bulgarian: поп Богомил - 'поп' [pop] means literally
> priest – father – in Bulgarian) or whether he assumed that name
> after it had been given to the whole sect. The word is a direct
> translation into Slavonic of Massaliani, the Syriac name of the sect
> corresponding to the Greek Euchites. The Bogomils are identified with
> the Massaliani in Slavonic documents of the 13th century."
The name Bogomil was the Bulgar word for the Paulician priests "Men of
God"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils
I prefer the in mesage 3 mentioned site in Dutch of a doctorate study
on the University of Louvaint in Belgium.>
Geiserik
dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
>
>
> > After the fall of Khazaria, the Jews swarmed as Askhenazi (Khazars from
> > Asov)
>
> Ashkenazim are European Jews descended from early Rhineland communities
> who were largely descended from the ancient Jewish communities of
> Italy, southern France, and Spain.
This is new to me, I have read thousand of times that the early Jews
of the German cities were Sefardic Jews while the later German Jews
were Ashkenazim, but my theory is not about Jews but about Khazar
Paulician Christians becoming Cathars.
> "A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000,
> addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[10]
> found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews
> contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples,
> but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that
> the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the
> Middle East."> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#DNA_clues
This do not contradict what I am writing, Sefardic and Ashkenazin Jews
were both Jews
from the Middle east at different times.
> >and the Paulician Christians as Cazzars to the west, where they
> > got from Frederic II the so called "Gazari assyl". Gazari became in
> > Italy and France the name for the Albigenses (from Albania): Cathari.
> > There was a Cathar concily where a Bogomil bishop ordenated 7 Cathar
> > priests and converted 2000 people into Cathars.
> The Cathar, or Albigensian, movement originated in southern France.
This local origin of Cathars, Bogomil and Paulicians is only supported
by a minority of the many writers of the immense Cathar liturature and
special the modern French writers who dismissed the documents from the
church history and the inquisition as unreliable and therefore base
their new insights on allmost nothing. As is the same for the
literature on the Bogomils.
> > The remnants of the Cathars, after the Cathar crusade, returned
> > eastwards to the countries where Bogomils and Paulicians still were
> > tolerated: Moslim Bosnia and Khanate Kazan of the Mongols.
>
> The Khazar Khaganate was eradicated in the 10th century. The Cathars
> didn't appear until the 12th century, and were massacred and their
> writings destroyed in the 13th century.
I am talking about the Mongol Khanate Kazan of the 13th century and you
about the Khazar Khaganate Chazaria.
It is just this timetable what is the strongest part of mu theory
7th- 10th century Khazars, 11th century Bogomils, 12thcentury Cathars.
>
> > Khazar Cathar, Ketzer, Paulician Bogomils: its all in the same name.
> > My documentated, not yet by historici accepted, theory, is available
> > on: > > http://groups.msn.com/MormonsHistoricalRevival
I fully agree.
Geiserik
> dsha...@gmail.com schreef:
> > > After the fall of Khazaria, the Jews swarmed as Askhenazi (Khazars from
> > > Asov)
> >
> > Ashkenazim are European Jews descended from early Rhineland communities
> > who were largely descended from the ancient Jewish communities of
> > Italy, southern France, and Spain.
>
> This is new to me, I have read thousand of times that the early Jews
> of the German cities were Sefardic Jews while the later German Jews
> were Ashkenazim, but my theory is not about Jews but about Khazar
> Paulician Christians becoming Cathars.
>
> > "A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000,
> > addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al[10]
> > found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews
> > contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples,
> > but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that
> > the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the
> > Middle East."> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi#DNA_clues
my Arthur Koestler and your Alan Books donot seem to agree with this
dna study:
" Based on the wrong starting point, May 28, 2006
Reviewer: Arthur Koestler (Spain) - See all my reviews
According to the author, the book is constructed around a scientific
comparison of the genetical properties of sefardita and askhenazim
Jews. But accordingly to the book, the samples were obtained from
anatolian sefarditas, theoretically expelled from Spain in 1492.
But according to Kevin Alan Brooks and Arthur Koestler, when the
massive, definitive khazarian diaspora occurred from the 11th to 13th
centuries, many khazarians arrived to Spain, motivated by the known
existence of a previous powerful, old Jewish comunity "
> > > on: > > http://groups.msn.com/MormonsHistoricalRevival