Parents only, not children invited to b'nai mitzvah?
irene...@verizon.net
How common is it these days to invite parents, but not children (in our
case preschool age) to b'nai mitvahs? Our rabbi does not allow
children during services and I guess some people now exculde children
from the kiddush/reception too. It seems to me an odd practice. This
sort of thing is unheard of in my parents community and would
constitute on an aggregious social faux pas.
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kgold
irene...@verizon.net writes:
>
> How common is it these days to invite parents, but not children (in our
> case preschool age) to b'nai mitvahs? Our rabbi does not allow
> children during services and I guess some people now exculde children
> from the kiddush/reception too. It seems to me an odd practice. This
> sort of thing is unheard of in my parents community and would
> constitute on an aggregious social faux pas.
In our community:
The children of family members are typically invited. Age wouldn't
matter, and one just hopes that a young child having a major tantrum
would be taken outside during the service. Family is family.
The children of a adult friends typically are not invited unless there
is a connection to the children as well. Similarly, if the child has
friends who are invited, the parents might not be.
We'd never exclude children from a service. Unthinkable! It's a
Shabbat service, and anyone, the entire congregation can come to the
service and oneg. An 'invitation' is never required for any service.
Your Rabbi says a son can't pray with his father on Shabbat?
A BM party without kids? Even more unthinkable!
Adelle
<irene...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1108376569.6...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>How common is it these days to invite parents, but not children (in our
> case preschool age) to b'nai mitvahs? Our rabbi does not allow
> children during services and I guess some people now exculde children
> from the kiddush/reception too. It seems to me an odd practice. This
> sort of thing is unheard of in my parents community and would
> constitute on an aggregious social faux pas.
People have done it here in our Conservative congregation in Massachusetts.
The people I know who did it needed to limit the guest list because of space
and financial considerations. I still thought it was kind of tacky, though.
Adelle
Claire Petersky
Sort of a related question: if you had food at the reception after that you
didn't think would appeal to smaller children, would you attempt to offer
other sorts of food, like a peanut butter and jelly bar off to the side? Or
is your attitude, if they don't like herring and chopped liver (or
spanakopita, or whatever is in your tradition), they should just tough it?
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
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kgold
"Claire Petersky" <cpet...@mousepotato.com> writes:
>
> Sort of a related question: if you had food at the reception after
> that you didn't think would appeal to smaller children, would you
> attempt to offer other sorts of food, like a peanut butter and jelly
> bar off to the side? Or is your attitude, if they don't like herring
> and chopped liver (or spanakopita, or whatever is in your tradition),
> they should just tough it?
When I was growing up, everyone had the same meal.
What I see today (Connecticut, USA) is an entirely different kid's menu,
under the assumption that American children will only eat chicken
fingers, hamburgers, fries, and token baby carrots.
I'm not happy with that idea, but there are bigger battles to fight.
--
Ken Goldman kg...@watson.ibm.com 914-784-7646
fred
>Sort of a related question: if you had food at the reception after
>attempt to offer other sorts of food, like a peanut butter and
>herring and chopped liver (orspanakopita, or whatever is in your
>tradition), they should just tough it?
A surprising number of children love pickled herring (my son does,
the gene must have skipped my generation). And our standard kiddush
includes fruit, veggie sticks with dip, cake, cookies, and soda, so
most kids will find something to eat (if they stop playing long enough).
kgold
"Claire Petersky" <cpet...@mousepotato.com> writes:
>
> Sort of a related question: if you had food at the reception after that you
> didn't think would appeal to smaller children, would you attempt to offer
> other sorts of food, like a peanut butter and jelly bar off to the side? Or
> is your attitude, if they don't like herring and chopped liver (or
> spanakopita, or whatever is in your tradition), they should just tough it?
When I was growing up, everyone had the same meal.
What I see today (Connecticut, USA) is an entirely different kid's
menu, under the assumption that American children will only eat
chicken fingers, hamburgers, fries, and token baby carrots.
I'm not happy with that idea, but there are bigger battles to fight.
--
Ken Goldman kg...@watson.ibm.com 914-784-7646
mei...@erols.com
version=2.63
I didn't see this until months after it was posted.
In soc.culture.jewish.parenting on 19 Feb 2005 17:12:05 GMT
irene...@verizon.net posted:
>
>How common is it these days to invite parents, but not children (in our
>case preschool age) to b'nai mitvahs? Our rabbi does not allow
>children during services and I guess some people now exculde children
>from the kiddush/reception too. It seems to me an odd practice. This
>sort of thing is unheard of in my parents community and would
>constitute on an aggregious social faux pas.
I agree with all that and more. I agree with all the prior replies
too. I'm not going to address bar mitzvahs but the part about not
allowing children during services!
Although there aren't any little kids in our congregation anymore,
because all the young marrieds have settled elsewhere (mostly 5 miles
from here), I was in shul a couple Friday nights ago and again the
next week, and when we started to sing L'cho Dodi, your post came to
mind. What a beautiful song, what a dramatic moment, and what could
be a better time for children to bond with their parents and to bond
with Judaism than during that song, and other places in the service.
I could so easily remember or imagine fathers and mothers holding
their kids in their arms for parts like that. And kids standing and
sitting beside their parents for other parts.
I remember clearly many Friday nights when I was between 5 and 8 at
the R congregation we belonged to in my home town, and if my memory
went back far enough, I might remember all the way back to age one or
two. I'm pretty sure I was there. I certainly went earlier than I
can remember. There were no baby sitters or children's services, and
I remember lots of kids, smaller than I, behaving well.
And since then, I've seen plenty of babies who can behave well for a
half hour, toddlers and older who can do 2 or 3 hours, most 5 or older
who know how to get up on their own and go out to the hall, or the
bathroom, for a while when they need to, or want to.
Besides all that, I think it's a bad idea if you want to raise Jewish
children, to not include them in things Jewish. Maybe in a perfect
world (depending on what one imagines perfect is) just having Jewish
blood would be enough to make devoted Jews out of one's children. But
it doesn't work that way.
No children's service can substitute for being with his parents**.
It's their parents whom they want to emulate, and they want to learn
how to be adults, like them.. **Parents with an "S". In Orthodox
shuls, although the men and women sit separate, little children
often/usually go from one to the other depending on their mood. Under
bar (13) and bas mitzvah age (12), or some years younger -- I haven't
paid close attention -- it's ok to have girls in the men's section and
boys in the women's. The kids feel at home among those who are
praying.
In O and some C congregations, the Priestly Blessing on RH, Sukkos,
Pesach, and Shavuos, is an especial time when all the sons, and all
the daughters, I think then even up to 12, stand with their father,
while he brings his tallis around all of them and they lower their
eyes during the blessing. I think if your husband does this even once
with your kids, he won't want to give it up.
You folks are missing so much with this rabbi.
If you agree, I would suggest your choices of several options.
Find a few like minded members, with and without kids if possible,
and arrange to meet with the rabbi and the executive board about this.
Maybe somewhere some complained about lack of decorum*** and the rabbi
is just doing what they want, and thinks no one disagrees. Or maybe
he agrees but his mind can be changed.
***Maybe by one kid who has grown up by now, or moved away, but yet
the rule goes on.
If you have a national organization, maybe you can find something
published by it, or national organizations of other denominations, or
articles written by other respected Jews or non-Jews, either in
Judaism or sociology or psychology or whatever, that supports the idea
that little children should be there too.
You and your husband talk to the rabbi alone, and assure him that
your child isn't likely to cry, if that is the case, and that you'll
take him out right away if he does, but you think it is important that
he/they be there for services, and you want him to make an exception
for your [well-mannered] child(ren). Tell him how you want him there
for L'cho Dodi, or any other part you think he will like or might like
or that matters. Really that covers the whole service.
Talk to the rabbi or not, (but if you talk to him, leave it on the
basis that you'll think about it, and then give it a couple weeks or
more) and bring the kids in anyhow. If they don't make any noise, how
can anyone complain? I've seen loads of kids age 4 and less who can
sit through 1 1/4 hours on Friday night without making any noise at
all. If you're not sure about your kid, take him to lectures at the
library etc. to train him. At shul, take him out if he does cry,
but bring him back again. Tell anyone who asks, I want my child to
grow up with services as part of his life, I want him to know the
prayers from before he learns his last name, I want him to know the
melodies from befrore he can remember. I want him to spend time
crawling on the floor around our feet, while he hears us and the
congregation saying prayers, making blessings, and singing songs.
If these ideas don't work, change congregations, or hire a new rabbi.
Aren't your kids as big a reason as any that you go to shul at all?
You want to show them that Judaism is important, but stories don't
mean near as much as seeing. Chanuka and Purim aren't enought to make
Jews out of people. Sunday school is worth something, but not too
much, although the absence of any of these three would be noticed,
eventually. The only simple things I can think of that really matter
are Friday night or other holiday meals together, with Kiddush and
(preferably washing hands, although we didn't) and HaMotzi; studying
Judaism or Jewish history together, parent and child; and attending
services together.
The husband and wife may or may not sit together. That's not the
point. It's that the kids are there together with their parents, and
when kids are little, in O, that can be both parents, in sequence.
Maybe it could detract from the important part of the post above to
tell this long story, but it is related:
Rabbis are not always the best authority on how to make Jews out of
Jewish kids. For years as an adult I went with my mother to her
congregation for one day of RH, and the rabbi of the overflow service
(the regular rabbi was at the shul, but this one was at a separate
location, and since my mother and her husband were recent members,
they were not eligible for the main service) was ordained, in his 60's
I think, maybe 50's, but was not a full-time congregational rabbi. He
only made three ventures off the "script". During the course of the
RH morning and additional service, he complained about the high price
of kosher meat and in a short comment about the Haftorah, he said that
"the statement that 'Abraham dwelt among the Philistines for many
years' proved that God didn't write the Torah or God made a mistake."
This could have been a valid topic to discuss in a class, but on RH,
with no opportunity to debate or even reply, with people of all ages
and levels, including some who only come to shul 2 or 3 days a year,
it's hardly the right thing to say. But somehow it was more important
to him to express his cyncism about who wrote the Bible, or about
God, than it was to make Judaism an inspiration on the High Holidays.
(He bases his comment on archeological findings that traced the
Philistines to near Beer Sheva starting only iirc 400 years after
Abraham. But later findings show that they were there (and not all on
Cyprus) only 120 iirc years after Abraham after all. Findings yet to
come may show that some of them (we don't need all) were there 75
years before Abraham. And I doubt any archaeologist has ever said
that there were no Philistines there earlier still, only that there is
no found archaelogical evidence of them earlier.
So I wrote him a letter, as tactful as I could, pointing out these two
things, but not signing my full name because I still had fantasies
about being a macher in the Jewish community here.
Anyhow, he and I were both at RH services for two more years, and
although he did cut out the remark about kosher meat, he repeated
exactly what he had said about Abraham each year.
Jump ahead 5 more years or so and a friend invited me to dinner with
her at her older friend's house. And another guest was this very
rabbi. And at one part in the converstion, they and maybe I, but
certainly he started bemoaning the high rate of intermarriage. And I
so much wanted to point out to him that he did his share by ridiculing
Judaism and the God of the Jews in front of 400 or 500 people,
including many many children, each year. But because I was a guest
there, I coudn't do that, and because it wouldn't have helped, I
didn't call him later.
This is a strong story, but I'm sure there are weaker ones of the
same sort as well. Someday, 20, 30, 40 years down the road, the rabbi
at your congregation will have noticed the high rate, higher than he
would want, or those who were kids at your congregation who either
intermarry or just drop out of the Jewish community, and he'll bemoan
that too. And it will be too late to remind him of the role that he
played.
And if you tell him now what he is doing, he'll likely be insulted.
Maybe less likely if he is young and not yet convinced he's right.
You would probably do best basing it on what you want for your
children. And hopefully you'll be able to find other members who want
the same thing.
Perhaps no one is suggesting to him that now is the time to stop this,
and he would if he were asked. And if there are 10 seconds in some
services when a baby or child disrupts the service, it's a small price
to pay for nurturing all the other children, and the one who cries as
well.
Meirman
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kgold
mei...@erols.com writes:
>
> In O and some C congregations, the Priestly Blessing on RH, Sukkos,
> Pesach, and Shavuos, is an especial time when all the sons, and all
> the daughters, I think then even up to 12, stand with their father,
> while he brings his tallis around all of them and they lower their
> eyes during the blessing. I think if your husband does this even once
> with your kids, he won't want to give it up.
>
> You folks are missing so much with this rabbi.
In our congregation (mixed observance), we do the Priestly Blessing at
every Friday night service. And it's not just <13 children. We have
70, 80 year olds blessing their children as well, sometimes 3
generations huddled together. The Rabbi is with his family; he's
part of the congregation too.
Back to the original thread ...
It just occurred to me - Does this Rabbi tell his own children that
they can't come to his service? Now that would be strange.
--
Ken Goldman kg...@watson.ibm.com 914-784-7646
mei...@erols.com
version=2.63
In soc.culture.jewish.parenting on 24 Aug 2005 15:32:03 GMT
kg...@watson.ibm.com (kgold) posted:
>>X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no
version=2.63
>>
>>mei...@erols.com writes:
>
>>>>
>>>> In O and some C congregations, the Priestly Blessing on RH, Sukkos,
>>>> Pesach, and Shavuos, is an especial time when all the sons, and all
>>>> the daughters, I think then even up to 12, stand with their father,
>>>> while he brings his tallis around all of them and they lower their
>>>> eyes during the blessing. I think if your husband does this even once
>>>> with your kids, he won't want to give it up.
>>>>
>>>> You folks are missing so much with this rabbi.
>
>>
>>In our congregation (mixed observance), we do the Priestly Blessing at
>>every Friday night service. And it's not just <13 children. We have
My reference to being under 12 or maybe less concerned having the
girls be with their father during the holiday Priestly Blessings, from
Kohanim who duchen from the bimah, who give the priestly blessing from
the platform in front of the ark. In that case everyone receives the
blessing from the descendants of those who did so when the Temple
stood. Over a certain age, girls would not go into the men's section
The blessing of children by the father is traditionally done at home,
often just before Shabbes dinner, and yes there's no limit on the age
of the children.
>>70, 80 year olds blessing their children as well, sometimes 3
>>generations huddled together. The Rabbi is with his family; he's
>>part of the congregation too.
>>
>>Back to the original thread ...
>>
>>It just occurred to me - Does this Rabbi tell his own children that
>>they can't come to his service? Now that would be strange.
Good point. It sure would.
My boss a couple levels up at one job, who I presume made quite a good
living, told me a story about his cul-de-sac. There was an empty lot
on it and kids played on the lot, and one neighbor used to complain
and iirc takes stpes to stop them. His kid was one or two, or not
born yet. Later when his kid was 5 or 7, my boss saw that kid playing
on the empty lot and mentioned it to his father. His father said,
"You know kids". Didn't even seem to notice his double standard.
>>--
>>Ken Goldman kg...@watson.ibm.com 914-784-7646
>>
Meirman
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fred
version=2.63
mei...@erols.com wrote:
>
> The blessing of children by the father is traditionally done at home,
> often just before Shabbes dinner, and yes there's no limit on the age
> of the children.
Although my sone makes a big deal about how far he has to bend over so
I can reach his head :(