Shabbos Goy question
sheldonlg
I have a contract with a lawn mowing service for which I pay them once a
month automatically. Well, today, Saturday, they showed up and are now
mowing my lawn. If I were frum, would this be "kosher"?
--
Shelly
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
permitted. Contract work may be given to a goy to do only if a) the
price is agreed in advance; b) the work is not done on the Jew's
premises; c) the object on which the work is to be done is removed
from the Jew's premises before Shabbos. An example would be giving
your suit to the dry cleaners on Friday, to be picked up on Monday.
That is permitted. A contractor tending your lawn, or repairing your
roof on Shabbos is not permitted. A dry cleaner picking up your suit
from your home on Firiday night, to be delivered cleaned and pressed
on Wednesday, is not permitted. There are a few isolated exemmptions
from these restrictions, but by and large, that is it.
GEK
whishing all a good week and good hodesh
cindys
wrote:
I have to tell you all of this is news to me. My understanding of the
halacha has been (correctly or incorrectly) that I may not say to a
contractor "Please come and mow my lawn on Saturday," but if they are
self employed, and I have a generic contract with them to keep my lawn
mowed, they work on their own schedule and come when they please. I
have specifically asked my lawnmowing service not to come on Saturday
but it is in consideration for not giving the wrong impression. My
snowplowing service comes whenever there is more than 3 inches of
snowfall and have shown up on Saturday on numerous occasions.
With respect to dry cleaning the suit, I know I may not drop off a
suit to be dry cleaned on Friday afternoon and tell the dry cleaner I
want to pick it up on Monday morning (assuming the establishment is
closed on Sunday). However, I may drop it off on Friday afternoon and
say I would like to pick it up on Wednesday morning, and the dry
cleaner is free to clean it whenever he wants within that timeframe,
even if it is Saturday because (like the lawn-mowing guy and the
snowplow guy), he owns his own business and makes his own schedule.
What is not permitted (as far as my understanding of halacha is
concerned) but I have seen done at an MO shul is to find that the
custodian forgot to turn on the light in the babysitting room before
shabbos and for someone to say to him (on Saturday morning at 10:00
a.m.), "Bob, can you please turn on the light in the babysitting
room?" The excuse I was given was that it was part of his regular job
description, he is self-employed, or I don't remember what. We did
discuss this on this newsgroup in the past and somebody said it was
permitted because Rabbi So-and-So ruled this way, and everyone accepts
that psak (halachic ruling). Apparently, Rabbi Artscroll (for one)
does not accept this because it states unequivocally in _The Radiance
of Shabbos_ or _The Sanctity of Shabbos_ (can't remember which -- it's
a series of books about the laws of shabbos) that this is not
permitted.
That having been said, CYLOR (and I do mean CYLOR and not CYLRA
because you were asking what a frum Jew would do).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
> On Jun 5, 10:13 pm, Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepipes...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Since it was your lawn adjoining your home, not, it would not be
> > permitted. Contract work may be given to a goy to do only if a) the
> > price is agreed in advance; b) the work is not done on the Jew's
> > premises; c) the object on which the work is to be done is removed
> > from the Jew's premises before Shabbos. An example would be giving
> > your suit to the dry cleaners on Friday, to be picked up on Monday.
> > That is permitted. A contractor tending your lawn, or repairing your
> > roof on Shabbos is not permitted. A dry cleaner picking up your suit
> > from your home on Firiday night, to be delivered cleaned and pressed
> > on Wednesday, is not permitted. There are a few isolated exemmptions
> > from these restrictions, but by and large, that is it.
>
> -----
> I have to tell you all of this is news to me. My understanding of the
> halacha has been (correctly or incorrectly) that I may not say to a
> contractor "Please come and mow my lawn on Saturday," but if they are
> self employed, and I have a generic contract with them to keep my lawn
> mowed, they work on their own schedule and come when they please.
No, not on your premises. Nor even off your premises, if work is done
in a public place and in a situation where everyone knows that it is
being done for you.
> With respect to dry cleaning the suit, I know I may not drop off a
> suit to be dry cleaned on Friday afternoon and tell the dry cleaner I
> want to pick it up on Monday morning (assuming the establishment is
> closed on Sunday). However, I may drop it off on Friday afternoon and
> say I would like to pick it up on Wednesday morning, and the dry
> cleaner is free to clean it whenever he wants within that timeframe,
> even if it is Saturday because (like the lawn-mowing guy and the
> snowplow guy), he owns his own business and makes his own schedule.
>
No, you may drop it off Friday to be picked up Monday morning. It is
the cleaner's choice to close on Sunday.
> What is not permitted (as far as my understanding of halacha is
> concerned) but I have seen done at an MO shul is to find that the
> custodian forgot to turn on the light in the babysitting room before
> shabbos and for someone to say to him (on Saturday morning at 10:00
> a.m.), "Bob, can you please turn on the light in the babysitting
> room?" The excuse I was given was that it was part of his regular job
> description, he is self-employed, or I don't remember what. We did
> discuss this on this newsgroup in the past and somebody said it was
> permitted because Rabbi So-and-So ruled this way, and everyone accepts
> that psak (halachic ruling). Apparently, Rabbi Artscroll (for one)
> does not accept this because it states unequivocally in _The Radiance
> of Shabbos_ or _The Sanctity of Shabbos_ (can't remember which -- it's
> a series of books about the laws of shabbos) that this is not
> permitted.
An even cursory perusal of Shulchan Aruch will reveal that it is not
permitted. You don't need to go to such highly advanced and
sofisticated sources as Artscroll. In some cases it may be permitted
to *hint* to the regular custodian whose job it is to turn on the
lights, by saying for instance "Bob, the lights are out in the ladies'
toilet". It may also (sometimes) be permitted to tell a goy (even not
an employee) to do a melacha if it is a) a rabbinic prohibition, AND
b) urgently required either for a mitzva, or for someone who is ill.
Thus, you may engage a goy to push an invaid to shule in a wheelchair
even if there is no eiruv, since carrying in (most of) our streets is
forbidden only rabbinically (for Ashkanasim).
>
> That having been said, CYLOR (and I do mean CYLOR
I too subscribe to this disclamer, and hereby submit all that I write
above to rabbinic scrutiny and review. Of course, I include only such
rabbis as have thoroughly mastered the laws of Shabbas. Not someone
whose semicha is based on passing a 20 minute oral test on a half
dozen chapters of Yore Deiah, and who may possibly know something
about a knife that was used to slice an onion, but next to nothing at
all about the technicalities of Shabbas.
Evertjan.
It would depend on the time of "now"
and the postition of the mower on the globe,
you could own a lawn in Japan.
Kosjer? I would strongly advice you not to eat the grass.
The whole idea of a Sjabbes goy or sjikse strikes me as stressing the
limits of halachic frumness ["nor thy stranger that is within thy gates"].
btw. was it this NG that banned my using the word "goy" a few years ago?
[Or the genealogy one?]
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
cindys
wrote:snip
> > I have to tell you all of this is news to me. My understanding of the
> > halacha has been (correctly or incorrectly) that I may not say to a
> > contractor "Please come and mow my lawn on Saturday," but if they are
> > self employed, and I have a generic contract with them to keep my lawn
> > mowed, they work on their own schedule and come when they please.
>
> No, not on your premises. Nor even off your premises, if work is done
> in a public place and in a situation where everyone knows that it is
> being done for you.
----
Which supports what I said, which is that any prohibition would be on
the basis of a potential problem with ma'aris ayin (the way it looks)
not because of an actual violation of amir l'akum (asking a non-Jew).
I would submit that in a situation where everybody knows that
snowplowers are self-employed and are typically hired on a contract
basis (in snowy climates such as the one I live in), my neighbors are
not going to think I hired the snowplower on a per diem basis and/or
told him to come on Saturday. And everybody knows he is self-employed
and not my employee. The other argument that could be made is that the
snowplower is causing zilzul shabbos (making a lot of noise and
disturbing the sanctity of shabbos), but neither is that the case. The
position that I am arguing seems to be that endorsed by R' Dovid
Ribiat in _The 39 Melachos_ as well.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
Well, it's not very nice to have someone mowing the lawn with a gas
powered mower when everyone is having lunch, or when some are napping,
but arranging for him *not* to come then is afaik just like arranging
for him not to come at 3 in the morning, any day.
Otherwise, afaiik, if he's an independent conttractor who sets his own
schedule and his own hours and if he chooses to come when a Jew
wouldn't be allowed to mow the lawn, or at a time a Jew wouldn't be
allowed to specify that he mow the lawn, that's not a legal problem
for the Jew.
As to maris ayin, the way it looks to other people**, just like people
know the snow-plower comes on his own schedule, I'm sure people know
that the grass-mower almost always comes on his own schedule. Even
moreso that the snow-plower, because it only snows once in a while and
the grass grows a little every day. If someone from the household
were out there instructing or supervising, an onlooker might think he
was scheduled to come when the homeowner was home, but except for a
first cut with a new contractor, I don't know anyone who does that.
I don't think this guy is really a Shabbes goy. He's a goy and it's
Shabbes, but you didn't hire him to do things you had to get done on
Shabbes. You would have been just as happy if he came any other day.
How to work things out that things get done on Shabbes has
requirementss that I would mess up if I tried to explain.
**BTW, everyone< Jew or not, takes precautions against maris ayin,
even if they don't call it that. When one is in a store and he
doesn't have a shopping cart, he will hold the socks he wants to buy,
rather than put them in his pockets while looking at other things,
because he doesn't want to look like he is shoplifting. If he needs
two hands to do something, he'll put the socks on a pile of clothes,
for example. There are situations like this everyday.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
cindys
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:40:53 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
>
> >Here is a question I don't know the answer to.
>
> >I have a contract with a lawn mowing service for which I pay them once a
> >month automatically. Well, today, Saturday, they showed up and are now
> >mowing my lawn. If I were frum, would this be "kosher"?
>
> Well, it's not very nice to have someone mowing the lawn with a gas
> powered mower when everyone is having lunch, or when some are napping,
> but arranging for him *not* to come then is afaik just like arranging
> for him not to come at 3 in the morning, any day.
When it happens on shabbos, it is called "zilzul shabbos."
>
> Otherwise, afaiik, if he's an independent contractor who sets his own
> schedule and his own hours and if he chooses to come when a Jew
> wouldn't be allowed to mow the lawn, or at a time a Jew wouldn't be
> allowed to specify that he mow the lawn, that's not a legal problem
> for the Jew.
>
> As to maris ayin, the way it looks to other people**, just like people
> know the snow-plower comes on his own schedule, I'm sure people know
> that the grass-mower almost always comes on his own schedule.
snip
And the other problem with telling the snowplower not to come on
shabbos is that because he does write his own schedule to suit his own
convenience (on a geographic basis), my telling him not to come on
shabbos could inconvenience him a lot. If there were a big snowfall on
Friday night or Saturday, he would plow all his other customers'
driveways in my area on Saturday and then have to make a special trip
back to plow my driveway on Sunday. Depending on how long it snowed or
the amount of snow, he may or may not have come back on Sunday anyway,
but when there is a protracted snowstorm on Friday night and Saturday,
for example, he can sometimes be driving his plow for 24 hours
straight, going from location to location, and sometimes revisiting
locations twice in that 24-hour period. Then, he goes home on Sunday
morning for some well-deserved sleep, and the last thing he wants to
do or is inclined to do is turn right around and make a special trip
to my house on Sunday just for my driveway. So, basically, my driveway
could potentially not get plowed at all for a good long while, and it
could mean that I would have 3 to 6 inches or more of snow in my
driveway all day Sunday and potentially even into Monday. That would
be a huge problem. So, no, no sorry, there is no way I am going to
tell the snowplower not to come on Friday night or Saturday. He is
self-employed and writes his own schedule for his own convenience.
This is not a violation of amira l'akum.
WRT the guy who mows the lawn, that's a different story. I have told
him not to come on Saturday because of zilzul shabbos (ruining shabbos
because of noise), and he is generally working in my neighborhood on
Sunday anyway (because a lot of people have asked him not to come on
Saturday), and if the lawn doesn't get mowed, the only problem is that
the grass is a little high, but it won't prevent us from going to work
on Monday. That having been said, one time, he showed up on a Thursday
which was yom tov Sukkos or something. In my area, there are
lawnmowers going all the time in the summer, so hearing a lawnmower
outside doesn't necessarily give the heads up, and it's impossible to
tell which lawn is being mowed. I must have looked around the window
at some point, and there he was mowing my lawn. I debated whether or
not I should run out there and stop him (he was about halfway
finished), but I decided it wasn't worth the bother at that point.
However, since then, I have always sent him a note whenever a yom tov
falls in the middle of the week, so that he won't come.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote:
>
>btw. was it this NG that banned my using the word "goy" a few years ago?
>[Or the genealogy one?]
Must have been genaology. There's nothing wrong with the word goy.
It means nation in Hebrew, usually or always the nation of Israel, and
in the plural, goyim means "the [other] nations". "Other" is implied,
like in Spanish iirc, and in careless English**.
**"Steve is smarter than any child in his class" In English "other"
is often omitted, but it is required for that sentence to be true. In
Biblcal Hebrew, at least regarding goy, it's not required. I don't
know about Modern Hebrew or other words in Biblical or Mishnaic
Hebrew.
In Yiddish goy means a gentile, goyim more than one of them, no more,
no less. If it sounds derogatory sometimse, that's because the
sentence it is in is derogatory, the reader or listener has a
preconception about what it means, or if spoken, the speaker's tone of
voice.
Any word can be used negatively in a sentence. And any word alone can
be spoken negaatively. You should have heard my uncle say
"Republican". Does that make it a negative word?
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
I see where your difficulty arises. You are stuck on the notion of
maras ayin. Forget it. This has nothing to do with maras ayin, or with
what the neighbours might think or not think. Maras ayin as such is
limited to only those specific situations that Hazal insitituted, and
not the broad spectrum that popular notions have extended it to. But
with amira lenochri, when Hazal prohibited it, they allowed exceptions
only for when the work is done not on the Jew's premises. If done on
the Jew's premises, or even off site if removed from the jew's
premises on Shabbos, it is forbidden. The fact that the neighbours
know he is an independent contractor is irrelvant. "Zilzul Shabbos"
that you quote, is another concept that doesn't really exist except in
very limited circumstances, and here too, like maras ayin, you can't
make up your own. as for rhis Rebbi Ribiat, I don't know who he is, I
do not own his book, and have never read the book. But as with all
"Popular Halacha" books, they tend to oversimplify, and lend
themselves to misunderstanding, however erudite the author might (or
might not) be. But where we can dispense with the zilzul idea. It is
forbidden to have a goy do melacha on your premises even if it makes
no noise, and even if everyone knows you didn't hire him just for
Shabbos.
GEK
once agin cautioning: consult your competent knowledgeable rabbi;
don't go by what I say, or by what someone (even a rabbi) writes in a
general book for popular perusla.
sheldonlg
> I too subscribe to this disclamer, and hereby submit all that I write
> above to rabbinic scrutiny and review. Of course, I include only such
> rabbis as have thoroughly mastered the laws of Shabbas. Not someone
> whose semicha is based on passing a 20 minute oral test on a half
> dozen chapters of Yore Deiah, and who may possibly know something
> about a knife that was used to slice an onion, but next to nothing at
> all about the technicalities of Shabbas.
Now why did you take this thread, where I asked a simple question about
what a frum person should do, to become nasty? There was no nastiness,
not even any confrontatio, in the thread before you chose to insert it.
Tbere was only a request for information.
I am no expert (by any means) in this, but I would surmise that you have
violated some rule or other of halacha by doing that.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg wrote on 05 jun 2010 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
>> Here is a question I don't know the answer to.
>>
>> I have a contract with a lawn mowing service for which I pay them once a
>> month automatically. Well, today, Saturday, they showed up and are now
>> mowing my lawn. If I were frum, would this be "kosher"?
>
> It would depend on the time of "now"
> and the postition of the mower on the globe,
> you could own a lawn in Japan.
>
> Kosjer? I would strongly advice you not to eat the grass.
>
> The whole idea of a Sjabbes goy or sjikse strikes me as stressing the
> limits of halachic frumness ["nor thy stranger that is within thy gates"].
>
> btw. was it this NG that banned my using the word "goy" a few years ago?
> [Or the genealogy one?]
No, not to my knowledge. Also, AIUI, goy means gentile (as in
not-Jewish) and is a vaild word. Finally, the expression "Shabbos goy"
is a very well known one, and the reason I used it rather than "Shabbat
goy".
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:40:53 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
> <shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is a question I don't know the answer to.
>>
>> I have a contract with a lawn mowing service for which I pay them once a
>> month automatically. Well, today, Saturday, they showed up and are now
>> mowing my lawn. If I were frum, would this be "kosher"?
>
> Well, it's not very nice to have someone mowing the lawn with a gas
> powered mower when everyone is having lunch, or when some are napping,
> but arranging for him *not* to come then is afaik just like arranging
> for him not to come at 3 in the morning, any day.
No, it is not. He comes with many mowers, with several people, and does
my and several other neighbor's lawns. I could not say to him "Please
don't come on Saturday". His answer would be "Find yourself another
lawn service". He prices things by economy of scale. The fact that he
does about six or seven lawns all at once allows him to compete.
>
> Otherwise, afaiik, if he's an independent conttractor who sets his own
> schedule and his own hours and if he chooses to come when a Jew
> wouldn't be allowed to mow the lawn, or at a time a Jew wouldn't be
> allowed to specify that he mow the lawn, that's not a legal problem
> for the Jew.
.....but I have been paying him while KNOWING that it might work out to
be on a Saturday.
>
> As to maris ayin, the way it looks to other people**, just like people
> know the snow-plower comes on his own schedule, I'm sure people know
> that the grass-mower almost always comes on his own schedule. Even
Yes.
> moreso that the snow-plower, because it only snows once in a while and
> the grass grows a little every day. If someone from the household
> were out there instructing or supervising, an onlooker might think he
> was scheduled to come when the homeowner was home, but except for a
> first cut with a new contractor, I don't know anyone who does that.
>
> I don't think this guy is really a Shabbes goy. He's a goy and it's
> Shabbes, but you didn't hire him to do things you had to get done on
> Shabbes. You would have been just as happy if he came any other day.
I agree that he is not a "Shabbos goy" in the original sense. I used
that title because it was the closest description of the question.
>
> How to work things out that things get done on Shabbes has
> requirementss that I would mess up if I tried to explain.
>
> **BTW, everyone< Jew or not, takes precautions against maris ayin,
> even if they don't call it that. When one is in a store and he
> doesn't have a shopping cart, he will hold the socks he wants to buy,
> rather than put them in his pockets while looking at other things,
> because he doesn't want to look like he is shoplifting. If he needs
> two hands to do something, he'll put the socks on a pile of clothes,
> for example. There are situations like this everyday.
Yes.
--
Shelly
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
Not at all! Most yeshivas today issue semicha based on a very few
chapters of ritual law. The intricasies of the laws of Shabbos are not
among them, and most rabbis do not know much more than the average
layman. That is a fact. And most such rabbis are aware of it, and will
not presume to issue rulings on complex matters. But a few are not
cognisant of their linmitations. I caution Cindy to be ware of it. No
confrontation intended. I am sure Cindy understands what I mean. As
for my comments on the book, here too Cindy knows what I mean. it is a
popular book, not a definitive treatise on the complex laws of
Shabbos. I caution Cindy to to remember that. Nothing more.
You asked a question. I answered your question in one simple sentence.
To repeat: no it is not "kosher". It is forbidden to hav e grdener
tend to your lawn on Shabbos., even if contracted for the season and
shows up when convenient for him. End of my conversation with you.
Then, Cindy wished to explore the subject i bit further. My later
remarks were addressed to her concerns. No confrontations with anyone.
And just to make a point, you youself, Mr Glickler, are in no position
to lecture others about confrontational language. Where in this
discussion you indeed went out of your way to avoid confrontation, and
it is appreciated, that is not your usual method of operations. As we
discussed last week, peole in grass houses should not stow thrones.
GEK
sheldonlg
My apology, please. I took your comment as a back-handed slap at non-O
rabbis. I see now that was not what you intended.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
be OK and one (George) said no.
I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
name just four). It doesn't change my life one iota, but I _am_ curious.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Oh, and CYLOR doesn't apply to me. I don't even know one (where I
live), let alone have one.
--
Shelly
Ken
wrote:
> On Jun 5, 12:40 pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:> Here is a question I don't know the answer to.
>
> > I have a contract with a lawn mowing service for which I pay them once a
> > month automatically. Well, today, Saturday, they showed up and are now
> > mowing my lawn. If I were frum, would this be "kosher"?
>
> Since it was your lawn adjoining your home, not, it would not be
> permitted. Contract work may be given to a goy to do only if a) the
> price is agreed in advance; b) the work is not done on the Jew's
> premises; c) the object on which the work is to be done is removed
> from the Jew's premises before Shabbos.
(snip)
> GEK
> whishing all a good week and good hodesh
What about the stories I hear of the "old days" before thermostats, in
cold climates, where the gentile (is that better?) down the street
would come on Saturday and keep the coal fire going in the furnace?
Just curious,
Ken
cindys
No *I* am not stuck on the notion of ma'aris ayin. I understand
perfectly that your position is that the lawnmower/snowplower is ossur
(forbidden) on the basis of amira l'akum itself and ma'aris ayin is
not involved. I understood what you were saying from the beginning.
The position that the problems are ma'aris ayin and zilzul shabbos are
per R' Ribiat. He is well-known rav and posek in the froomie world (my
friend was at yeshiva with his nephew at Yeshiva Bais Binyomin in
Stamford, Connecticut), and _The 39 Melachos_ (Feldheim) that I have
cited is his four-volume tome of thousands of pages replete with his
all of his detailed citations and explanations from the S"A.
>Maras ayin as such is
> limited to only those specific situations that Hazal insitituted, and
> not the broad spectrum that popular notions have extended it to.
I am well aware of what ma'aris ayin is, I am well aware that it
applies only to the specific situations that Chazal instituted, and I
am not applying a broad spectrum popular notion to it. I am citing R'
Ribiat.
>But
> with amira lenochri, when Hazal prohibited it, they allowed exceptions
> only for when the work is done not on the Jew's premises. If done on
> the Jew's premises, or even off site if removed from the jew's
> premises on Shabbos, it is forbidden. The fact that the neighbours
> know he is an independent contractor is irrelvant. "Zilzul Shabbos"
> that you quote, is another concept that doesn't really exist except in
> very limited circumstances, and here too, like maras ayin, you can't
> make up your own.
Which wasn't at all what I was doing.
>As for rhis Rebbi Ribiat, I don't know who he is, I
> do not own his book, and have never read the book. But as with all
> "Popular Halacha" books, they tend to oversimplify, and lend
> themselves to misunderstanding, however erudite the author might (or
> might not) be. But where we can dispense with the zilzul idea. It is
> forbidden to have a goy do melacha on your premises even if it makes
> no noise, and even if everyone knows you didn't hire him just for
> Shabbos.
I am sorry you have never heard of R' Ribiat, but much of the froom
world has, and he is extremely well respected, and at thousands of
pages with its extensive citations, his book really doesn't seem to be
an oversimplification of anything. I don't know if his book was
intended for "popular perusal" or not but all of the rabbis at our
local yeshiva use it for a reference. I would be interested to hear
where meir b. weighs in on this topic, if he is reading this.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
That is a different topic.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> R' Ribiat. He is well-known rav and posek in the froomie world (my
>friend was at yeshiva with his nephew at Yeshiva Bais Binyomin in
>Stamford, Connecticut), and _The 39 Melachos_ (Feldheim) that I have
>cited is his four-volume tome of thousands of pages replete with his
>all of his detailed citations and explanations from the S"A.
There is also a Rabbi Ribiat in Baltimore. I've neve heard the name
except his and yours. Do you know if they are related?
mm
<shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>So far, three people have responded. Two (Cindy and Meir) say it would
>be OK and one (George) said no.
>
>I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
I agree. I'd rather have their opinions than mine. They likely won't
face the need to put afaik in each important sentence.
>name just four). It doesn't change my life one iota, but I _am_ curious.
As to Shabbes goy, I hadn't thought about it before your previous
post, but goy in that phrase is Yiddish, and Yiddish speaking Jews
pronounce the the seventh day of the week Shabbos (or as I spell it
for some reason even I don't know, Shabbes).
Now that there are so many Ashkenazi, even Yiddish-speaking Jews using
Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
in English. That is, even though it's an English word now, it retains
the French pronunciation.
Evertjan.
> Any word can be used negatively in a sentence. And any word alone can
> be spoken negaatively. You should have heard my uncle say
> "Republican". Does that make it a negative word?
Over here, yes. It means non-monarchist.
I never met your uncle, was he the man from u.n.c.l.e.?
I heared "liberal" as in "liberal Jew" as felt negative by the
transponders. Cann't imagine why.
cindys
> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:42 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
>
> >So far, three people have responded. Two (Cindy and Meir) say it would
> >be OK and one (George) said no.
>
> >I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
>
> I agree. I'd rather have their opinions than mine. They likely won't
> face the need to put afaik in each important sentence.
>
> >name just four). It doesn't change my life one iota, but I _am_ curious.
>
> As to Shabbes goy, I hadn't thought about it before your previous
> post, but goy in that phrase is Yiddish, and Yiddish speaking Jews
> pronounce the the seventh day of the week Shabbos (or as I spell it
> for some reason even I don't know, Shabbes).
>
> Now that there are so many Ashkenazi, even Yiddish-speaking Jews using
> Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
> I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
> but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
> sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
> in English. That is, even though it's an English word now, it retains
> the French pronunciation.
FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
often used in a pejorative way.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
news:JvidnUONLPw8P5bR...@giganews.com...
I truly love Amitai's learned and well reasearched opinions. Even so,
Sheldon elevating him to a posek brings a smile to my face.
Best,
Abe
cindys
> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:38:46 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> > R' Ribiat. He is well-known rav and posek in the froomie world (my
> >friend was at yeshiva with his nephew at Yeshiva Bais Binyomin in
> >Stamford, Connecticut), and _The 39 Melachos_ (Feldheim) that I have
> >cited is his four-volume tome of thousands of pages replete with his
> >all of his detailed citations and explanations from the S"A.
>
> There is also a Rabbi Ribiat in Baltimore. I've neve heard the name
> except his and yours. Do you know if they are related?
Rabbi Dovid Ribiat heads the Kollel Ohr Yaakov of Forshay in Monsey
NY. He is a world-renowned halachic authority. I don't know what is
his relationship to the Rabbi Ribiat in Baltimore.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
"motor mouth" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote
>
> Now that there are so many Ashkenazi, even Yiddish-speaking Jews using
> Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
> I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
> but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
> sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
> in English. That is, even though it's an English word now, it retains
> the French pronunciation.
Goy shel Shabbat.
Best,
Abe
cindys
> "sheldonlg" <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote in message
I'm honored to be considered on the same level as Giorgies. Even
though I am disputing him on this particular topic, I'm not even close
to being on his level of halachic knowledge. I know you are not
shomrei mitzvos, Abe, but in consideration of your background,
objectively speaking, what is your understanding of this halacha (if
you feel inclined to comment)?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
Apology accepted.!
GEK
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
>
> I am sorry you have never heard of R' Ribiat, but much of the froom
> world has, and he is extremely well respected, and at thousands of
> pages with its extensive citations, his book really doesn't seem to be
> an oversimplification of anything. I don't know if his book was
> intended for "popular perusal" or not but all of the rabbis at our
> local yeshiva use it for a reference. I would be interested to hear
> where meir b. weighs in on this topic, if he is reading this.
I myself am also probably sorry I never heard of R. Ribiat. But even
having not seen his book, I can still state with a fair degree of
certainty that it contains simplifications for popular consumption. I
doubt most laymen consult the thousands of pages of extensive
references. As for the local rabbis using it as a reference to know
here to look in the literature, that is all to the good.
You have convinced me. I will billy neider see if one of the
congregations in our shule complex has a copy, and then I will look it
over and see. Who knows? - perhaps I will even purchase a copy.
GEK
mm
<shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>On 6/6/2010 12:34 AM, mm wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:40:53 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
>> <shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Here is a question I don't know the answer to.
>>>
>>> I have a contract with a lawn mowing service for which I pay them once a
>>> month automatically. Well, today, Saturday, they showed up and are now
>>> mowing my lawn. If I were frum, would this be "kosher"?
>>
>> Well, it's not very nice to have someone mowing the lawn with a gas
>> powered mower when everyone is having lunch, or when some are napping,
>> but arranging for him *not* to come then is afaik just like arranging
>> for him not to come at 3 in the morning, any day.
>
>No, it is not. He comes with many mowers, with several people, and does
>my and several other neighbor's lawns. I could not say to him "Please
>don't come on Saturday". His answer would be "Find yourself another
>lawn service". He prices things by economy of scale. The fact that he
>does about six or seven lawns all at once allows him to compete.
Then it's even harder to arrange for him not to come on Shabbes, but I
was only saying in the first place that people who wanted to keep
Shabbes special would likely want him not to come and they could
probably make such an arrangement, certainly if each house contracted
individually for graass cutting. Just as if there were a Tueday
afternoon bridge club, they wouldn't want their lawn mowed on Tuesday
afternoon. I wasn't saying that they had to make such an
arrangement, and if the lawn was finished before they got home, if
they all went to shul in the morning and maybe to friends in the
afternoon, and they had no nearby neighbors whose Shabbes would be
disturbed, they too might not care if the lawn was mowed that day.
>>
>> Otherwise, afaiik, if he's an independent conttractor who sets his own
>> schedule and his own hours and if he chooses to come when a Jew
>> wouldn't be allowed to mow the lawn, or at a time a Jew wouldn't be
>> allowed to specify that he mow the lawn, that's not a legal problem
>> for the Jew.
>
>.....but I have been paying him while KNOWING that it might work out to
>be on a Saturday.
I'm including that. He makes his own schedule and decides when to
come. It might be Shabbes. If it could never be Shabbes, we wouldn't
even have a question.
None of this takes into account what Georgies said, about which I
don't know. I mow my own lawn and shovel my own snow. The one time I
hired a gardener to do something, he did it badly. I hired someone
who was too cheap, and I don't want to spend the money to hire someone
"good". The n'hood pays for the n'hood-owned street to be plowed,
about 7 blocks' worth, and the n'hood wants him to come to our place
first, but I don't think we pay him extra to do that. Still, he's
always there the morning after it snows.
(What gets me is that all my neighbors shovel the entire sidewalk. I
only shovel a path one shovel wide, about 12 inches. Some people with
driveways shovel the entire driveway. We used to have a 120 foot
driveway and I would shovel just two lanes, one for the left tires and
one for the right, 12 or 18" wide, wider than the tires but a lot less
than the whole driveway.. My mother knew how to stay in the lanes when
she backed down. Why do they do all that extra work?)
I did hire a guy to replace my roof and he scheduled it for Monday. A
one-ay job, and I know that's true because that's how long it took to
do 3 of the other houses in my block. But it kept raining so it took
parts of 4 days. He was still done by Thursday.
Meir
--
Meir
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
Indeed. With respect to extreme cold, even ordinary healthy people are
considered as if they were ill, and it may be permitted. In fact, many
contemporary posqim have expanded this, and consider ordinary healthy
people to be in the category of the ill with respect to extreme heat,
and permitted (in some circumstances) to hav a goy turn on the air
conditioning. As always, consult your rabbi (my previous caution still
applies about what kind of rabbi we are talking about).
GEK
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Jun 6, 11:59 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:42 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
>>
>> <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> >So far, three people have responded. Two (Cindy and Meir) say it would
>> >be OK and one (George) said no.
>>
>> >I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
>>
>> I agree. I'd rather have their opinions than mine. They likely won't
>> face the need to put afaik in each important sentence.
>>
>> >name just four). It doesn't change my life one iota, but I _am_ curious.
>>
>> As to Shabbes goy, I hadn't thought about it before your previous
>> post, but goy in that phrase is Yiddish, and Yiddish speaking Jews
>> pronounce the the seventh day of the week Shabbos (or as I spell it
>> for some reason even I don't know, Shabbes).
>>
>> Now that there are so many Ashkenazi, even Yiddish-speaking Jews using
>> Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
>> I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
>> but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
>> sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
>> in English. That is, even though it's an English word now, it retains
>> the French pronunciation.
Thanks, Abe.
>FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
>offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
>always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
>often used in a pejorative way.
By people who think they are expected to do things they really
shouldn't do?
who don't like the whole system?
By people who think there shouldn't be any?
By non-O Jews?
Or by whom?
Is goy shel Shabbat any better for those people?
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
> I'm honored to be considered on the same level as Giorgies. Even
> though I am disputing him on this particular topic, I'm not even close
> to being on his level of halachic knowledge.
You are under a misapprehension. I am not on any particular level of
halachic knowledge. But here we are dealing with a simple one-liner. A
fundamental prerequisite of contracting with a goy to do some work
which he might do on Shabbos is that it not be done on the Jew's
premises. No particularly high knowledge needed here. And mowing the
lawn almost certainly falls under this category. As for a contractor
who clears away snow after a heavy snowfall, since waiting until after
Shabbos may cause great hardship, an exception might be in order. As
always, a competent poseq needs to be consulted. And if R. Ribiat is
competent poseq, and he says OK (in a personally delivered psaq, not
as a generalisation is a popular book), or if some other competent
poseq says OK after consulting with the literature cited in R.
Ribiat's book, then so be it. Giorgies's level of halachic knowledge
(such as it is, or isn't) does not come into play. One caution is to
NEVER take a pesaq from scjm, by counting how many posters here say
yes, and how many say no. Even if among the posters is meir-b or one
or two others who. as far as I can tell, ARE competent halachic
authorities.
GEK
Ken
wrote:
>
> > > > GEK
> > > > whishing all a good week and good hodesh
>
> > > What about the stories I hear of the "old days" before thermostats, in
> > > cold climates, where the gentile (is that better?) down the street
> > > would come on Saturday and keep the coal fire going in the furnace?
>
> > -----
>
> considered as if they were ill, and it may be permitted. In fact, many
> contemporary posqim have expanded this, and consider ordinary healthy
> people to be in the category of the ill with respect to extreme heat,
> and permitted (in some circumstances) to hav a goy turn on the air
> conditioning. As always, consult your rabbi (my previous caution still
> applies about what kind of rabbi we are talking about).
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
One of the reasons I read this site is to learn a little something
here, and a little something there. IOW, thanks for the response.
And as I've said before, the nearest synagogue is thirty miles from my
home, and it's not Orthodox, so I'm turning to this group for my
questions.
This is a real question: If the ultimate is the preservation of life,
and if the healthy need heat or a/c to maintain their health/life,
then why do they need to hire a goy at all? Why can't they stoke the
furnace or turn on the a/c themselves?
I'm a volunteer member of Search and Rescue. And it's my
understanding that if I was Orthodox, I could go out on a call on
Saturdays because I'm trying to save a life in a life or death
instance that most certainly can't wait a day. So if I can go out and
save somebody else's life, why can't people stoke their own furnace to
save their own?
This is a bit of a digression, but on the same topic. If somebody
objects and wants me to start a new thread, no problem, I will.
Thanks in advance,
Ken
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
wrote:
>
> You have convinced me. I will billy neider see if one of the
> congregations in our shule complex has a copy, and then I will look it
> over and see. Who knows? - perhaps I will even purchase a copy.
>
the room used by the "Chevra Mishnayos Nussach Ashkanas" minyan at our
shule complex. It is indeed impressive. And, as Ms Cindy promised, it
does include a vast wealth of literature citation. Though it is very
large and quite pricey ($94 and change plus shipping and tax this week
when everything at Feldheim is 20% off), I have decided to order it
online, where I now find that not only is it on sale, but free
shipping this week. After receiving the treatise and examining it more
carefully, I may (or may not) post a review. My initial impression
(based on a very cursory quick look) is favourable. But even were I to
end up with the best and most favourable opinion possible, I would in
no wise accept this work as a poseq acharon on any complex matter,
without first consulting our own rav on the matter (no respect to the
evidently learned Rabbi Ribiat intended). Thank you Cindy for calling
my attention to this work.
GEK
now looking over my bookshelves trying to find room to fit this
compendium when it arrives.
Harry Weiss
> On Jun 6, 11:43?am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:38:46 +0000 (UTC), cindys
> >
> > <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > > R' Ribiat. He is well-known rav and posek in the froomie world (my
> > >friend was at yeshiva with his nephew at Yeshiva Bais Binyomin in
> > >Stamford, Connecticut), and _The 39 Melachos_ (Feldheim) that I have
> > >cited is his four-volume tome of thousands of pages replete with his
> > >all of his detailed citations and explanations from the S"A.
> >
> > except his and yours. ?Do you know if they are related?
> ---
> Rabbi Dovid Ribiat heads the Kollel Ohr Yaakov of Forshay in Monsey
> NY. He is a world-renowned halachic authority. I don't know what is
> his relationship to the Rabbi Ribiat in Baltimore.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
The problem with his book is that he is often to machmir in the book
itself, listing the other opinions in the footnote section which is a big
as the text itself. Also since his footnotes are in a separate section of
the books it is often a pain to follow. but the book is very well written
and a great source, especially if one has the source materials he quote to
check on.
His brother was my kid;'s Rebbe in Valley Torah HS>
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
sheldonlg
Quite the contrary when I was growing up. It was a needed service and
they appreciated them. I never thought of it as a pejorative, though I
did find the practice somewhat hypocritical --- but that had nothing to
do with the person.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Because stoking a furnace is CLEARLY creating fire. Also, there are
such things as sweaters and coats. It might detract from the enjoyment
of Shabbat, but it is not life threatening (except near the north pole
:-) ). There are ways of doing it without making the fire.
>
> This is a bit of a digression, but on the same topic. If somebody
> objects and wants me to start a new thread, no problem, I will.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Ken
--
Shelly
Amitai
> "sheldonlg" <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote in message
Amitai
> Best,
> Abe
sheldonlg
You seem to know more Talmud that just about anyone here. So, IMO,
including you was quite proper. (Notice the "just about").
--
Shelly
cindys
I agree that he tends to be machmir (strict), and even at that he
seems to find the contracted lawnmowing and snowplowing on shabbos to
be problematic only from a perspective of ma'aris ayin (how it looks)
and zilzul shabbos (that it's too noisy) and not on the basis of amir
l'akum (asking the non-Jew).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
Thank you Cindy for continuing to translate.
cindys
There are a lot of issues with respect to this question, and I think
he was asking for a bonafide halachic response here, not somebody's
personal reckoning. In a situation of pikuach nefesh (life-
threatening), certainly a Jew can do what he needs without asking a
non-Jew. And if we are talking about a chilly September day versus a
wintry January day, then certainly one can wear an extra sweater for
comfort. But there is a gray area that goes beyond "comfort" where in
order to avoid getting pneumonia or some other serious illness, there
really needs to be another source of heat like a fireplace or a
furnace. However, the situation is not so dire that death is imminent
(which would warrant a Jew being mechallel shabbos - sabbath
transgressor). So, this is where the "shabbos goy" enters the picture.
R' Ribiat has a whole section on this topic. I just didn't have the
time to go to that section this morning. I can make some time to
summarize R' Ribiat's position from his book, but if this is a real
life dilemma, and if Ken, really does want to be sure he understands
the halacha, he will need to consult a rabbi directly who will make a
ruling just for him.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Ken
(snip)
> I just didn't have the
> time to go to that section this morning. I can make some time to
> summarize R' Ribiat's position from his book, but if this is a real
> life dilemma, and if Ken, really does want to be sure he understands
> the halacha, he will need to consult a rabbi directly who will make a
> ruling just for him.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.- Hide quoted text -
>
Cindy,
Thanks for the response, and if you have time to continue, that would
be great. But I thought I made it clear that it's not a real life
situation, just a question for some additional knowledge.
Thanks again,
Ken
Harry Weiss
> On Jun 6, 3:44?pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > On 6/6/2010 1:41 PM, Ken wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 6, 8:39 am, Giorgies E Kepipesiom<kepipes...@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >>>>> GEK
> > >>>>> whishing all a good week and good hodesh
> >
> > >>>> What about the stories I hear of the "old days" before thermostats, in
> > >>>> cold climates, where the gentile (is that better?) down the street
> > >>>> would come on Saturday and keep the coal fire going in the furnace?
> >
> > >>> -----
> >
> > >> Indeed. With respect to extreme cold, even ordinary healthy people are
> > >> considered as if they were ill, and it may be permitted. In fact, many
> > >> contemporary posqim have expanded this, and consider ordinary healthy
> > >> people to be in the category of the ill with respect to extreme heat,
> > >> and permitted (in some circumstances) to hav a goy turn on the air
> > >> conditioning. As always, consult your rabbi (my previous caution still
> > >> applies about what kind of rabbi we are talking about).
> >
> > >> GEK- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > One of the reasons I read this site is to learn a little something
> >
> > > And as I've said before, the nearest synagogue is thirty miles from my
> > > home, and it's not Orthodox, so I'm turning to this group for my
> > > questions.
> >
> > > and if the healthy need heat or a/c to maintain their health/life,
> > > furnace or turn on the a/c themselves?
> >
> > > understanding that if I was Orthodox, I could go out on a call on
> > > Saturdays because I'm trying to save a life in a life or death
> > > save somebody else's life, why can't people stoke their own furnace to
> > > save their own?
> >
> > such things as sweaters and coats. ?It might detract from the enjoyment
> > of Shabbat, but it is not life threatening (except near the north pole
> ------
> There are a lot of issues with respect to this question, and I think
> he was asking for a bonafide halachic response here, not somebody's
> personal reckoning. In a situation of pikuach nefesh (life-
> threatening), certainly a Jew can do what he needs without asking a
> non-Jew. And if we are talking about a chilly September day versus a
> wintry January day, then certainly one can wear an extra sweater for
> comfort. But there is a gray area that goes beyond "comfort" where in
> order to avoid getting pneumonia or some other serious illness, there
> really needs to be another source of heat like a fireplace or a
> furnace. However, the situation is not so dire that death is imminent
It does not have to be imminent, jsut a resonable risk that is life
threatening. A health person could often suffice with an extra coat.
A person with other conditions would be a different story.. The question
come whether a delay to get a non Jew would increase the risk.
It would rarely be an issue in a typical US neighborhood where there are
usually many non Jews around. (There are even non Jewish works in most of
the charedi type areas) It would a different story in the middle of the
forest or in some Israel moshavim, when the only close by non Jews are
more likely to kill the Jew than fix the heat.
> (which would warrant a Jew being mechallel shabbos - sabbath
> transgressor). So, this is where the "shabbos goy" enters the picture.
> R' Ribiat has a whole section on this topic. I just didn't have the
> time to go to that section this morning. I can make some time to
> summarize R' Ribiat's position from his book, but if this is a real
> life dilemma, and if Ken, really does want to be sure he understands
> the halacha, he will need to consult a rabbi directly who will make a
> ruling just for him.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
mm
Yes, Valley Torah! That's where a valley maidel would go.
That is so totally gnarly.
>
>
>
>
> --
>Harry J. Weiss
>hjw...@panix.com
--
Harry Weiss
> On Jun 6, 11:59?am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:42 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
> >
> > <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > >be OK and one (George) said no.
> >
> > >I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
> >
> > face the need to put afaik in each important sentence.
> >
> >
> > As to Shabbes goy, I hadn't thought about it before your previous
> > post, but goy in that phrase is Yiddish, and Yiddish speaking Jews
> > pronounce the the seventh day of the week Shabbos (or as I spell it
> >
> > Now that there are so many Ashkenazi, even Yiddish-speaking Jews using
> > Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
> > I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
> > but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
> > sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
> > the French pronunciation.
> ----
> FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
> offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
> always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
> often used in a pejorative way.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
I don't thnk of it as negative. I know of at least two well known non
Jews who refer to themselves as having been a Shabbos Goy, Tony Scalia,
and Colin Powel.
Abe Kohen
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:978762a0-0217-4bf2...@t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cindy, I was going to stay out of this because as you say I am not "shomer
mitzvot." But since you asked nicely here goes.
In the days of my Orthodox youth I never came across this problem, as we had
no grass in Williamsburg or Boro Park to cut. And certainly we had no money
to pay someone else to cut it.
As for MHO, the Karaite in me says that the same law applies to the Goy on
my property for my benefit as it does to me.
Checking the responsa, the Avnei Nezer, Orach Chaim, Siman 41, Divrei
Hamathil (Gimmel) Al ken nireh li al daat haRa"n z"l ... even if the Goy did
it to benefit the Jew, even without being instructed, even without
expectation of renumeration, it would still be prohibited.
Be that as it may, entering a doorman building and asking for Moshe Levy,
and then entering the elevator with the doorman pushing the right button, is
common practice among the MO in Manhattan. So is common for the custodian to
turn on or off the A/C in shul.
Perhaps Micha will say that its the fault of Rav Soloveitchik followers
allowing themselves such leniencies.
Best,
Abe
mm
<threerive...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Indeed. With respect to extreme cold, even ordinary healthy people are
>> considered as if they were ill, and it may be permitted. In fact, many
>> contemporary posqim have expanded this, and consider ordinary healthy
>> people to be in the category of the ill with respect to extreme heat,
>> and permitted (in some circumstances) to hav a goy turn on the air
>> conditioning. As always, consult your rabbi (my previous caution still
>> applies about what kind of rabbi we are talking about).
>>
>> GEK
>This is a real question: If the ultimate is the preservation of life,
>and if the healthy need heat or a/c to maintain their health/life,
>then why do they need to hire a goy at all? Why can't they stoke the
>furnace or turn on the a/c themselves?
My slightly-informed supposition: If there were no goy available and
the lack of warmth created a risk to your health (which the prior post
by Georgies indicates is interpreted broadly), you could do it
yourself. But there probably is a goy available. And iirc, it's
better for him to do it than for you to. In fact I have an example
that indicates that.
Our shul building was, I forget 40 something years old, and had iirc
alrady been sold or it was on the market. In the beis midrash, the
room for learning and daily prayers, there were two wall mounted
AC/heater units, not connected to the central AC or heat. Like a
motel but they seemed bigger. Maybe because the room was larger and
could have 20 people and motel rooms only have 2 most of the time.
Anyhow, the fan in one of them started to screech, and iirc the first
couple times were on weekdays and we turned it off for a while, and
then it would be okay later, but this was Friday night just before
Ma'ariv (evening service), and the rabbi asked me, since I guess I was
the maven on appliances, and I was pretty sure nonthing would happen
if we left it this way all night, that the most that would happen was
some screeching, and maybe the fan stalling, and overheating, and the
thermal fuse blowing, except maye it didn't have one since it was made
in 1962 or so, or something would go wrong, and maybe just maybe it
would catch fire. I couldn't promise that it wouldn't.
So the rabbi left the room and came back a couple minutes later with a
neighborhood guy whom he had explained the problem too (and maybe told
exactly what was needed? I don't know what he said) and the guy
turned off the heat or AC whatever it was. And then the guy left but
not before expressign some surprise that that was all the rabbi wanted
him to do. He had the idea it was an emergency I think, which it
might have been at 3 in the morning. Now there were quite a few
pedestrians around the shul, people getting out of their cars to walk
into their apartments or houses, and vice versa, or just walking down
the street, and that's where I thought he got him. But later the
rabbi said something that implied he had actually gone up to someone
in his car stopped at a stop sign and gotten him to help.
The only possible answer afaict is that it's better for a non-Jew to
do this than a Jew.
Here's the Deuteronomy version of the Fourth Commandment: "12 Observe
the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded
you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the
seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; you shall not do any
work — you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your
ox or your ass, or any of your cattle, or the stranger in your
settlements, so that your male and female slave may rest as you do. 15
Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt and the Lord your
God freed you from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm;
therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the sabbath
day."
"or the stranger that is in your settlement". I wonder if it makes a
difference in outside of Israel that the man the rabbi stopped is
probably not "within our settlements". Maybe not. I'm sure it
doesn't make that much of a difference, or there would be no problem
at all except in Israel.
>I'm a volunteer member of Search and Rescue. And it's my
>understanding that if I was Orthodox, I could go out on a call on
>Saturdays because I'm trying to save a life in a life or death
>instance that most certainly can't wait a day. So if I can go out and
>save somebody else's life, why can't people stoke their own furnace to
>save their own?
If you could get a goy to go on your rescue missions when they were on
Shabbes, that would also be prefereable, I'm sure. Either some other
member of the squad or someone driving down the street, like in my
example above. Somehow I think you can't send any old guy who is
driving down the street (and he wouldn't want to go, either), so what
about the rest of your squad? If there were others just as good as you
at a particular kind of rescue, I'll bet you could arrange to be
called last on Shabbes, so that when you were called it would be an
even higher level of emergency. Although I don't think that's the way
the Jewish paramedics in Baltimore work. Even though the public fire
departement is always called also, I think even on Shabbes hatsalah
>
>This is a bit of a digression, but on the same topic. If somebody
>objects and wants me to start a new thread, no problem, I will.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Ken
--
cindys
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
Yes, this is my understanding of the halacha, and for the record, this
is exactly R' Ribiat's position in the situation you describe. But it
is different when the person who is performing the labor is performing
it on his own behalf because he is self-employed and under contract to
perform a certain service on his own schedule and for his own
benefit.
>
> Be that as it may, entering a doorman building and asking for Moshe Levy,
> and then entering the elevator with the doorman pushing the right button, is
> common practice among the MO in Manhattan. So is common for the custodian to
> turn on or off the A/C in shul.
Which is a completely different situation (from the situation where
the guy is self-employed) as the doorman and the custodian are not
self-employed, but are employees, and they are not doing these things
to benefit themselves and not on their own schedule. And therefore,
the activities that you describe, as I understand the halacha, are
totally ossur (forbidden). In fact, according to my understanding of
the halacha, even "hinting" is forbidden (per the S"A), but I have
been corrected on this point on this forum on the basis that poskim
(halachic decisors) rule leniently on this hinting thing, and that's
why it's permitted.
With respect to the doorman building, as I understand the halacha, the
only way the Jew could ride the elevator (aside from programming it to
automatically open on every floor) would be if he (the Jew) would
stand around until a non-Jew came into the building and pushed the
button for his own use, and then the Jew could go along for the ride
but not request any additional floors and get off with the non-Jew or
on whatever floor the elevator randomly opened. The Jew cannot push
any buttons or ask or hint for anybody else to do it for him either.
And even if the non-Jew knew the Jew and knew what floor he lived on
and pushed the button for the Jew's floor without being asked, the Jew
could not make use of this.
This is like the situation of the non-Jew who puts on the light for
his own use and then the Jew can share it, but even there, the Jew can
only make use of the light if the room had previously been dim but not
totally dark (i.e., that the Jew would have been able to read (albeit
with difficulty) before the non-Jew turned on the additional light. If
the room had been previously totally dark, and the Jew couldn't have
read at all, he can't take advantage of the light and must actually
leave the room). I understand that this is very strict, and I am
certain that there are many poskim who don't hold this way. My reason
for mentioning it at all is to make the point that this amira l'akum
(asking the non-Jew) thing is a very serious prohibition, which a lot
of people take very lightly and will openly ask non-Jews to do things
for them (such as asking the doorman to push the elevator button or
asking the custodian at the shul to perform certain duties on
shabbos).
>
> Perhaps Micha will say that its the fault of Rav Soloveitchik followers
> allowing themselves such leniencies.
Perhaps ;-) Thanks for your response.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>
> If you could get a goy to go on your rescue missions when they were on
----
Yes. If a Jewish woman goes into labor on shabbos, it is considered
preferable to phone a cab and pay the (non-Jewish) cab driver to drive
her to the hospital rather than her husband simply driving her there
himself. I suspect the reason is because driving involves violating a
biblical prohibition (starting a fire) whereas paying the cab driver
*only* involves rabbinic prohibitions.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
In Baltimore they've arranged it with a cab company or two to take
their word that they will be paid after Shabbes. I suppose some group
or individual guarantees this. Details from _The Eruv List_ on
request. Someone still has to make a phone call and the woman and
usually her husband still have to ride there.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
Harry Weiss
Actually VT is an excellent Chafetz Chaim connected Yeshivah in Valley
Village (fomerly N. Hollywood) with both boys and Girls HS and a bet
midrash as well. and yes they do have many Valley girls in the girls HS.
(Of course we live in the bigger valley, but that is the more famous one )
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> So far, three people have responded. Two (Cindy and Meir) say it would
> be OK and one (George) said no.
>
> I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and
> Moshe (to name just four). It doesn't change my life one iota,
> but I _am_ curious.
I would like to hear from the first two you mentioned. AFAIK,
Georgies is correct regarding your question. I hesitate to talk
about the snow plow question.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepipes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > GEK
>> > > > whishing all a good week and good hodesh
>>
>> > > What about the stories I hear of the "old days" before thermostats, in
>> > > cold climates, where the gentile (is that better?) down the street
>> > > would come on Saturday and keep the coal fire going in the furnace?
>> > -----
>> Indeed. With respect to extreme cold, even ordinary healthy people are
>> considered as if they were ill, and it may be permitted. In fact, many
>> contemporary posqim have expanded this, and consider ordinary healthy
>> people to be in the category of the ill with respect to extreme heat,
>> and permitted (in some circumstances) to hav a goy turn on the air
>> conditioning. As always, consult your rabbi (my previous caution still
>> applies about what kind of rabbi we are talking about).
>>
>> GEK-
>
> here, and a little something there. IOW, thanks for the response.
>
> And as I've said before, the nearest synagogue is thirty miles from my
> home, and it's not Orthodox, so I'm turning to this group for my
> questions.
>
> This is a real question: If the ultimate is the preservation of life,
> and if the healthy need heat or a/c to maintain their health/life,
> then why do they need to hire a goy at all? Why can't they stoke the
> furnace or turn on the a/c themselves?
Because there is a difference between "health" and "life". What may
be permitted in a "life-and-death" situation may not be permitted
"just" for health reasons.
> I'm a volunteer member of Search and Rescue. And it's my
> understanding that if I was Orthodox, I could go out on a call on
> Saturdays because I'm trying to save a life in a life or death
> instance that most certainly can't wait a day. So if I can go out and
> save somebody else's life, why can't people stoke their own furnace to
> save their own?
IF stoking their furnace was a "life-and-death" situation indeed it
would be permitted. Usually, it's a question of comfort/health. So
while a Jew is forbidden we allow a non-Jew to do it.
> This is a bit of a digression, but on the same topic. If somebody
> objects and wants me to start a new thread, no problem, I will.
No need to start a new thread IMVHO.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> ------
>> There are a lot of issues with respect to this question, and I think
>> he was asking for a bonafide halachic response here, not somebody's
>> personal reckoning. In a situation of pikuach nefesh (life-
>> threatening), certainly a Jew can do what he needs without asking a
>> non-Jew. And if we are talking about a chilly September day versus a
>> wintry January day, then certainly one can wear an extra sweater for
>> comfort. But there is a gray area that goes beyond "comfort" where in
>> order to avoid getting pneumonia or some other serious illness, there
>> really needs to be another source of heat like a fireplace or a
>> furnace. However, the situation is not so dire that death is imminent
>
> It does not have to be imminent, jsut a resonable risk that is life
> threatening. A health person could often suffice with an extra coat.
> A person with other conditions would be a different story.. The question
> come whether a delay to get a non Jew would increase the risk.
>
> It would rarely be an issue in a typical US neighborhood where there are
> usually many non Jews around. (There are even non Jewish works in most of
> the charedi type areas) It would a different story in the middle of the
> forest or in some Israel moshavim, when the only close by non Jews are
> more likely to kill the Jew than fix the heat.
You're reading too many inflamitory posts. As of now, _most_ moshavim
have decent relations with their non-Jewish neighbors. But those
don't make the newspapers.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
snip
>FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
>offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
>always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
>often used in a pejorative way.
IIRC, AL Gore used to call himself Joe Lieberman's Shabbos Goy.
Steve Goldfarb
>On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:38:46 +0000 (UTC), cindys
><cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> R' Ribiat. He is well-known rav and posek in the froomie world (my
>>friend was at yeshiva with his nephew at Yeshiva Bais Binyomin in
>>Stamford, Connecticut), and _The 39 Melachos_ (Feldheim) that I have
>>cited is his four-volume tome of thousands of pages replete with his
>>all of his detailed citations and explanations from the S"A.
>There is also a Rabbi Ribiat in Baltimore. I've neve heard the name
>except his and yours. Do you know if they are related?
When I first saw that name I thought it sounded familiar, I think there
was indeed a Ribiat (just remembering the name, don't remember if I met a
rabbi, a student, or what) with that name when I was at Ner Israel in 1980
- 81.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>On Jun 6, 10:49=A0pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>snip
>>
>> If you could get a goy to go on your rescue missions when they were on
>> Shabbes, that would also be preferable, I'm sure. =A0
>----
>Yes. If a Jewish woman goes into labor on shabbos, it is considered
>preferable to phone a cab and pay the (non-Jewish) cab driver to drive
>her to the hospital rather than her husband simply driving her there
>himself. I suspect the reason is because driving involves violating a
>biblical prohibition (starting a fire) whereas paying the cab driver
>*only* involves rabbinic prohibitions.
Possibly for that reason, but if I can hazard a guess, typically you don't
go directly to the parking lot with your in-labor wife and make her walk,
instead you'd drop her off (either just standing in a loop or parking in a
temporary spot) and then you have to move your car - but once your wife
has left the car, you no longer have a valid halachic reason for driving,
so you'd be unable to move your car.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>In Baltimore they've arranged it with a cab company or two to take
>their word that they will be paid after Shabbes. I suppose some group
>or individual guarantees this. Details from _The Eruv List_ on
>request. Someone still has to make a phone call and the woman and
>usually her husband still have to ride there.=20
Regarding going to the hospital, that makes sense. But IMHO, for what
that's worth (little, I know) I would suspect that when it comes to a
single action such as turning on the furnace or whatever that if it's
halachically acceptable to do it at all, then it'd be better to just do it
yourself rather than getting a non-Jew involved.
What's the point of getting the non-Jew anyway? If it's permitted it's
permitted, in fact it's even required. So just do it.
--s
--
Micha Berger
translated, it's "[member of another] nation".
Today, when Yiddishisms in one's (American) English is less common,
being another generation away from the greenhorns who came to the US,
I'm not sure that's still true. To make a point of switching languages...
In Yinglish speaking communities, where this is still common, I don't
think anything new is meant by retaining "goy".
In more mod-O and non-O communities, where there is a higher threshold
needed before switching languages, I think the word "goy" is now only
being used when everything in American English seems too value neutral.
In any case, enough people take it to be derogatory that I avoid writing
"goy" here and in other fora. Even though it doesn't mean anything
negative in my own head.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507
sheldonlg
Yes you do. Blocking the entrance could very well put OTHER lives in
danger.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> Possibly for that reason, but if I can hazard a guess, typically you don't
>> go directly to the parking lot with your in-labor wife and make her walk,
>> instead you'd drop her off (either just standing in a loop or parking in a
>> temporary spot) and then you have to move your car - but once your wife
>> has left the car, you no longer have a valid halachic reason for driving,
>> so you'd be unable to move your car.
>>
>> --s
>Yes you do. Blocking the entrance could very well put OTHER lives in
>danger.
Who said anything about blocking the entrance?
--s
--
cindys
> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:18:00 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
>
>
> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 6, 11:59 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:42 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
>
> >> <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> >> >be OK and one (George) said no.
>
> >> >I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
>
> >> face the need to put afaik in each important sentence.
>
>
> >> post, but goy in that phrase is Yiddish, and Yiddish speaking Jews
> >> pronounce the the seventh day of the week Shabbos (or as I spell it
> >> for some reason even I don't know, Shabbes).
>
> >> Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
> >> I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
> >> but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
> >> sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
> >> the French pronunciation.
>
> Thanks, Abe.
>
> >FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
> >offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
> >always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
> >often used in a pejorative way.
>
> shouldn't do?
>
> who don't like the whole system?
>
> By people who think there shouldn't be any?
>
> By non-O Jews?
>
> Or by whom?
-----
Let's say by a cross-section of people. I don't really think it
matters which ones. As I said the last time this came up, there are
enough people in the world who consider this to be a pejorative term
and are offended by it that there is absolutely no reason not to use
the expression "non-Jew," which means the same thing and is a neutral
term that doesn't offend anybody.
About ten years ago, my non-O cousin was invited to a Passover seder
at an O Jewish home. Afterward, when I asked her if she had had a good
time, she told me she would have had a good time, but the family was
really "bigoted." When I asked her what she meant, she said they were
repeatedly using the word "goy" to describe non-Jews. This is my
cousin who grew up with off-the-boat Polish grandparents who had
probably used the expression all the time when they were speaking
Yiddish. But the family who had invited my cousin to the Passover
seder were not speaking Yiddish. They were speaking English. And yes,
I did explain to her that they hadn't meant anything negative, but it
doesn't matter. She still walked away with a bad taste in her mouth.
And it doesn't matter if they didn't do anything wrong. The perception
was the same.
The other day, my husband and I were going shopping. He was driving,
and I was the passenger. Without signaling, another car from the
oncoming traffic made a left-hand turn right in front of us. My
husband had been momentarily distracted by something, I screamed
"stop," my husband hit the brakes, and we narrowly avoided what could
have been a very serious accident. While I was thanking God and
relieved that we were still alive, my husband's only concern was that
the other guy had been "wrong," and that if we had had the accident,
the other guy's insurance company would have had to pay for the
damages. I always tell my husband that I would rather have him alive
than dead with a gravestone that reads "Here lies a man who had the
right of way."
My point is that you can insist from now until doomsday that there is
nothing pejorative about the word "goy." But in the year 2010, a lot
of people, correctly or incorrectly, are offended by that word, so
there is no reason to insist on using it when the word "non-Jew" is
neutral and means the same thing.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>My point is that you can insist from now until doomsday that there is
>nothing pejorative about the word "goy." But in the year 2010, a lot
>of people, correctly or incorrectly, are offended by that word, so
>there is no reason to insist on using it when the word "non-Jew" is
>neutral and means the same thing.
I agree with you, and would point out that the reason why people are using
the word "goy" in the first place is generally to make a distinction
between "us" and "them" - something that is inherently at least somewhat
offensive.
Even if your intent in doing so is to say that "us" are awful while "they"
are wonderful (which is rarely if ever why people make that distinction)
it's still a bit unseemly, no?
--s
--
sheldonlg
"just standing in a loop" which I read to mean the looping driveway in
from the emergency room entrances of many hospitals and which are
usually roofed over. Standing there prevents others from driving up
close to the door.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
C'mon now! Gimme a break. We are talking here about what a _non-Jew_
does FOR a _Jew_ on Shabbat. How can you even phrase the question
without an "us" and "them"? Really now, that is a bit over-the-top PC
-- or shall I say "beyond the pale"?
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
I'll take your word for it. Believe me when I say that this is the
first time I heard that it was considered a pejorative. Now I have
heard other expressions with the word "goy" in it which are, indeed,
pejorative -- but not his expression. (Since we have non-Jewish posters
here, and I don't want to offend with it, I will not repeat the
expression that came immediately to mind as an example of such a
pejorative.)
--
Shelly
cindys
> On 6/7/2010 11:05 AM, Steve Goldfarb wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >> My point is that you can insist from now until doomsday that there is
> >> nothing pejorative about the word "goy." But in the year 2010, a lot
> >> of people, correctly or incorrectly, are offended by that word, so
> >> there is no reason to insist on using it when the word "non-Jew" is
> >> neutral and means the same thing.
>
> > I agree with you, and would point out that the reason why people are using
> > the word "goy" in the first place is generally to make a distinction
> > between "us" and "them" - something that is inherently at least somewhat
> > offensive.
>
> > Even if your intent in doing so is to say that "us" are awful while "they"
> > are wonderful (which is rarely if ever why people make that distinction)
> > it's still a bit unseemly, no?
>
> > --s
>
> C'mon now! Gimme a break. We are talking here about what a _non-Jew_
> does FOR a _Jew_ on Shabbat. How can you even phrase the question
> without an "us" and "them"? Really now, that is a bit over-the-top PC
> -- or shall I say "beyond the pale"?
I think Steve are referring to the use of the word "goy" versus "non-
Jew" in a general sense. We weren't talking about the expression
"shabbos goy" per se.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>"just standing in a loop" which I read to mean the looping driveway in
>from the emergency room entrances of many hospitals and which are
>usually roofed over. Standing there prevents others from driving up
>close to the door.
The ones I've seen generally have two lanes, and in any case I have to
assume the hospital has some way to clear the path, e.g., tow your car
away. But even if you're right and you're blocking the entrance, thereby
endangering lives and requiring you to drive on shabbos, that requirement
terminates the second your car is no longer blocking the entrance.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>C'mon now! Gimme a break. We are talking here about what a _non-Jew_
>does FOR a _Jew_ on Shabbat. How can you even phrase the question
>without an "us" and "them"? Really now, that is a bit over-the-top PC
>-- or shall I say "beyond the pale"?
I'm talking about using the term "goy" - as in, "well, we would never do
such a thing, but those goyim, well..."
Given that, even in this context where you're asking a non-Jew to do
something, I think you're better off phrasing it to reflect that, e.g.,
"non-Jew," rather than goy.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>I'll take your word for it. Believe me when I say that this is the
>first time I heard that it was considered a pejorative. Now I have
>heard other expressions with the word "goy" in it which are, indeed,
>pejorative -- but not his expression. (Since we have non-Jewish posters
>here, and I don't want to offend with it, I will not repeat the
>expression that came immediately to mind as an example of such a
>pejorative.)
IIUC, Cindy is saying the word "goy" itself is pejorative, and thus any
expression utilizing that word is also likely to be perceived as
pejorative. If it's wrong to refer to someone as "the goy" then it doesn't
make it better by calling him "the shabbos goy."
I don't think this is just an issue of terminology, I think the very
notion of the shabbos goy is itself inherently demeaning, not to mention
as I understand it generally speaking non-halachic.
If the action is prohibited on Shabbos, then it's prohibited to ask a goy
to do it. If the action is necessary to preserve life, then not only is it
no longer prohibited on shabbos as I understand it the act actually
becomes required, and thus you should simply do it, rather than asking a
non-Jew to do it.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>I think Steve are referring to the use of the word "goy" versus "non-
>Jew" in a general sense. We weren't talking about the expression
>"shabbos goy" per se.
Right. Thanks, Cindy.
--s
--
cindys
> In <14dea0b9-9b65-4f5e-a8e2-ea40408dd...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >My point is that you can insist from now until doomsday that there is
> >nothing pejorative about the word "goy." But in the year 2010, a lot
> >of people, correctly or incorrectly, are offended by that word, so
> >there is no reason to insist on using it when the word "non-Jew" is
> >neutral and means the same thing.
>
> I agree with you, and would point out that the reason why people are using
> the word "goy" in the first place is generally to make a distinction
> between "us" and "them" - something that is inherently at least somewhat
> offensive.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Although saying "non-Jew" versus "Jew"
is still making the same distinction. As Jews, we are ostensibly
distinct from other nations. If we think we are exactly the same, then
the next logical question is what is the point of all this Judaism
then? Why bother ourselves with ensuring continuity? Why be bothered
with all these restrictions? Why not eat lobster? etc
>
> Even if your intent in doing so is to say that "us" are awful while "they"
> are wonderful (which is rarely if ever why people make that distinction)
> it's still a bit unseemly, no?
A lot of time the comparisons are ostensibly neutral, but they're not
really (neutral). For example, I have heard people compare funeral
customs of Jews to those of non-Jews. "By the goyim, they have open
caskets and view the body. Then, they have a wake afterwards." This is
supposed to be neutral, but it's really not. First of all, the
expression "by the goyim" irks me like fingernails on a chalkboard.
It's so yenta-ish. Whenever I hear someone say something like this, I
always feel like saying, "Who do you think you are that you're so
special, that you're better than the next guy? At the end of the day,
we all wind up in the same place." (and no one will convince me that
the expression "by the goyim," isn't always meant in a pejorative
way, the message in the sentence above being that Jewish funeral
customs are superior to those of non-Jews because by having a closed
casket, we are showing respect for the dead whereas their open caskets
are inherently disrespectful. And let's not forget that "the wake" is
a wild party where everyone gets drunk.
I suppose it is human nature for people to believe that the way their
group does things is superior to the next guy's way. And maybe that's
where the real "offense" lies, and I suppose there is no escaping
that. But using the word "goy" rather than saying "non-Jew," just
really seems to compound the issue. And apparently a lot of other
people also feel that way.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
The above statement should have read "I think Steven *and I* are
referring to the use...
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>> the word "goy" in the first place is generally to make a distinction
>> between "us" and "them" - something that is inherently at least somewhat
>> offensive.
>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Although saying "non-Jew" versus "Jew"
>is still making the same distinction. As Jews, we are ostensibly
>distinct from other nations. If we think we are exactly the same, then
>the next logical question is what is the point of all this Judaism
>then? Why bother ourselves with ensuring continuity? Why be bothered
>with all these restrictions? Why not eat lobster? etc
I think a good example of a neutral context would be something like
discussing kosher slaughter, where you might say "... and if lungs have
adhesions, rendering the meat unkosher, the butcher can sell it to a
non-Jew."
All things being equal in that case I think you could say either "non-Jew"
or "goy," but given the other uses all things aren't equal, and thus if
you're speaking English I think it's probably better just to say non-Jew.
Maybe I'm making this next part up, but seems to me that the term "goy"
refers to both religion and ethnicity, (not so differently from how the
term Jew does) but in the above context I think non-Jew is more about the
religious component. You aren't selling the meat to the person because of
who they are, but because of what they don't do. Or maybe who they aren't.
But in your example below, the "by the goyim" seems to be making more of
an ethnic statement than necessarily a religious one. Or deliberately
confusing the two, e.g., hindus, protestants, those wacky goyim are all
the same.
>>
>> Even if your intent in doing so is to say that "us" are awful while "they=
>"
>> are wonderful (which is rarely if ever why people make that distinction)
>> it's still a bit unseemly, no?
>A lot of time the comparisons are ostensibly neutral, but they're not
>really (neutral). For example, I have heard people compare funeral
>customs of Jews to those of non-Jews. "By the goyim, they have open
>caskets and view the body. Then, they have a wake afterwards." This is
>supposed to be neutral, but it's really not. First of all, the
>expression "by the goyim" irks me like fingernails on a chalkboard.
>It's so yenta-ish. Whenever I hear someone say something like this, I
>always feel like saying, "Who do you think you are that you're so
>special, that you're better than the next guy? At the end of the day,
>we all wind up in the same place." (and no one will convince me that
>the expression "by the goyim," isn't always meant in a pejorative
>way, the message in the sentence above being that Jewish funeral
>customs are superior to those of non-Jews because by having a closed
>casket, we are showing respect for the dead whereas their open caskets
>are inherently disrespectful. And let's not forget that "the wake" is
>a wild party where everyone gets drunk.
>I suppose it is human nature for people to believe that the way their
>group does things is superior to the next guy's way. And maybe that's
>where the real "offense" lies, and I suppose there is no escaping
>that. But using the word "goy" rather than saying "non-Jew," just
>really seems to compound the issue. And apparently a lot of other
>people also feel that way.
Yeah, I agree with you.
--s
--
cindys
> In <x_idnSrNeajCkpDRnZ2dnUVZ_vidn...@giganews.com> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> writes:
>
> >I'll take your word for it. Believe me when I say that this is the
> >first time I heard that it was considered a pejorative. Now I have
> >heard other expressions with the word "goy" in it which are, indeed,
> >pejorative -- but not his expression. (Since we have non-Jewish posters
> >here, and I don't want to offend with it, I will not repeat the
> >expression that came immediately to mind as an example of such a
> >pejorative.)
>
> IIUC, Cindy is saying the word "goy" itself is pejorative, and thus any
> expression utilizing that word is also likely to be perceived as
> pejorative. If it's wrong to refer to someone as "the goy" then it doesn't
> make it better by calling him "the shabbos goy."
>
> I don't think this is just an issue of terminology, I think the very
> notion of the shabbos goy is itself inherently demeaning, not to mention
> as I understand it generally speaking non-halachic.
Correct. The situations where it is halachically permitted to "ask a
non-Jew" are extremely limited and very specific. On more than one
occasion, at a simcha (a celebration), I have seen a black-hat rabbi
send the caterer or a shul member to ask a non-Jewish guest to go in
the shul kitchen and turn off the oven (or the light). Or sometimes,
it's not the rabbi who does this but one of the shul members who sees
that the caterer forgot to turn off the oven, and takes it upon
himself to locate a non-Jew in the crowd, and say "Can you please go
in the kitchen and..." . Whenever I see this (and I have seen it on
multiple occasions), I want to scream. And on one occasion, I
approached the rabbi and told him how offensive it was that this was
happening. It was the equivalent of treating invited guests like the
hired help. He said he hadn't realized and would let the culprits know
that this was unacceptable and to please not do it again. I don't know
if he did or not.
But FTR, with respect to the "shabbos goy" who puts coal in the
furnace. That is a paid position, so I don't think it's offensive
because you're hiring someone to do a service. Whether or not the
expression "shabbos goy" is offensive in this context is a different
issue, but it's quite different from asking someone's invited guest to
provide this service to the shul (in the middle of the kiddush, no
less).
>
> If the action is prohibited on Shabbos, then it's prohibited to ask a goy
> to do it. If the action is necessary to preserve life, then not only is it
> no longer prohibited on shabbos as I understand it the act actually
> becomes required, and thus you should simply do it, rather than asking a
> non-Jew to do it.
The position may be non-halachic, but I think I agree with you.
Best regards,
----Cindy S.
sheldonlg
I have absolutely no problem with dispensing of the actions of having a
non-Jew (OK?) do something for you on Shabbat. In fact, it was the
apparent hypocrisy of doing this that was one of the things that turned
me off of Orthodoxy during my teens.
As I said, the term "goy" was never demeaning nor degrading in my mind
unless used in certain demeaning expressions -- and "Shabbos goy" was
not one of those. However, I have been away from there for almost 50
years, and times do change, so I now take Cindy's word for it.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Count that another case of the mind filling in the blanks. :-) I read
the original just as you now corrected it.
--
Shelly
mm
>cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>>FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
>>offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
>>always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
>>often used in a pejorative way.
>
>IIRC, AL Gore used to call himself Joe Lieberman's Shabbos Goy.
That's right. There was at least one night that they stayed very late
Friday in the Senate, and Gore invited him to his parents' apartment
which is (was?) it seems very close to the Capitol. He may have
pressed the elevator button**. One thing Gore did was turn off the
lights in Lieberman's room, so he could go to sleep. Someone wrote
that if it is too dark to read and someone turns on the lights, he has
to leave, but nothing was said about turning off the lightts.
**Or they have an elevator operator. My friend's building on E 57th
St. in NYC has someone operate the elevator, riding up and down with
the passengers, even though all that need be done is to press 5. At
least when I come.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
meir b.
past few days, and thus didn't discover this topic until today. On
the original question, since my opinion was flatteringly solicited,
allow me belatedly to respond that GEK's reply is indeed the
halachically correct one, as is explicit in Shulchan Aruch (Orach
Chaim 244:1), where the distinction is drawn between a contracted job
done on a Jew's property or in circumstances where it is known to be
for a Jew, and where it is not so done. It is prohibited in the
former cases, and permitted in the latter.
As a local rabbi responded when asked if there was any way one's
lawn could be mowed on Chol Hamo'ed (the intermediate days of Pessach
and Sukkot, when mowing is not a permitted acts), "Yes, it can be
done. Just have the non-Jew remove the lawn, take it home, mow it
there, and then bring it back."
Shoveling snow, however, may be in a different category. It is
not clear that the act of clearing snow, in and of itself, constitutes
any violation of Shabbbat, certainly on a Biblical level (as
contrasted with cutting grass, which is a Biblically prohibited act),
and thus it would be permitted to arrange with a non-Jew to shovel
snow whenever it falls on Shabbat. However, the use of a gas- or
electric-powered device would not be permitted.
Meir B.
cindys
Best regards,
----Cindy S.
Don Levey
>
>
> Shoveling snow, however, may be in a different category. It is
> not clear that the act of clearing snow, in and of itself, constitutes
> any violation of Shabbbat, certainly on a Biblical level (as
> contrasted with cutting grass, which is a Biblically prohibited act),
> and thus it would be permitted to arrange with a non-Jew to shovel
> snow whenever it falls on Shabbat. However, the use of a gas- or
> electric-powered device would not be permitted.
>
mandated by the locality (for example, on sidewalks). The legions of
kids with snowshovels seem fewer and further between; what if all
available to hire are people with gas-powered snow-blowers? Also, is it
any different if the locality itself plows one's sidewalk? This doesn't
even address the large mound of snow left at the bottom of the driveway
by the snowplough...
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
mm
<s...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <14dea0b9-9b65-4f5e...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
>>My point is that you can insist from now until doomsday that there is
>>nothing pejorative about the word "goy." But in the year 2010, a lot
>>of people, correctly or incorrectly, are offended by that word, so
>>there is no reason to insist on using it when the word "non-Jew" is
>>neutral and means the same thing.
>
>I agree with you, and would point out that the reason why people are using
>the word "goy" in the first place is generally to make a distinction
>between "us" and "them" -
Of course. And so is the use of non-Jew and gentile. That's what words
are for, to express meaning. If everyone were Jews, we wouldn't need
any of these three terms.
>something that is inherently at least somewhat
>offensive.
So anything that makes a distinction between Jews and non-Jews is
offensive?
You're confusing what you believe with what is inherent.
It's no more offensive to distinguish Jews from goyim than to
distinguish peonies from other flowers.
>Even if your intent in doing so is to say that "us" are awful while "they"
>are wonderful (which is rarely if ever why people make that distinction)
I've certainly seen goyim cited as tending to have a positive
characteristic that Jews tend not to have. I've done it myself. So
"if ever" isn't needed, unless you are counting only times where Jews
are so bad as to be "awful" and they are so good as to be "wonderful".
Did you set the bar high so you could say "rarely if ever"?
>it's still a bit unseemly, no?
No.
>--s
mm
<s...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <reso065fdtu2agvkj...@4ax.com> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
>>In Baltimore they've arranged it with a cab company or two to take
>>their word that they will be paid after Shabbes. I suppose some group
>>or individual guarantees this. Details from _The Eruv List_ on
>>request. Someone still has to make a phone call and the woman and
>>usually her husband still have to ride there.=20
>
>Regarding going to the hospital, that makes sense. But IMHO, for what
>that's worth (little, I know) I would suspect that when it comes to a
>single action such as turning on the furnace or whatever that if it's
>halachically acceptable to do it at all, then it'd be better to just do it
>yourself rather than getting a non-Jew involved.
No it wouldn't. Did you read the posts that preceded this one?
>What's the point of getting the non-Jew anyway? If it's permitted it's
>permitted,
Do you know how simplistic this sounds? It's not just in Judaism that
things are not this simple.
> in fact it's even required. So just do it.
I remember your writing that you thought G-d's giving the Law at Sinai
was in the second half of the Torah. It's in the middle of the second
book. I think you should learn a lot more before you try to give
halachic advice.
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
>On Jun 6, 11:59 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:29:42 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
>>
>> <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> >So far, three people have responded. Two (Cindy and Meir) say it would
>> >be OK and one (George) said no.
>>
>> >I would love to hear opinions from Micha, Meir B., Amitai, and Moshe (to
>>
>> I agree. I'd rather have their opinions than mine. They likely won't
>> face the need to put afaik in each important sentence.
>>
>> >name just four). It doesn't change my life one iota, but I _am_ curious.
>>
>> As to Shabbes goy, I hadn't thought about it before your previous
>> post, but goy in that phrase is Yiddish, and Yiddish speaking Jews
>> pronounce the the seventh day of the week Shabbos (or as I spell it
>> for some reason even I don't know, Shabbes).
>>
>> Now that there are so many Ashkenazi, even Yiddish-speaking Jews using
>> Israelie/almost Sephardic pronunciation at least some of the time,
>> I'll bet Shabbat goy might pop out of someone's mouth once in a while,
>> but I'll also bet that even in the middle of a Sephardic-pronounced
>> sentence, the term is still "Shabbos goy", like "coup d'etat" spoken
>> in English. That is, even though it's an English word now, it retains
>> the French pronunciation.
>----
>FTR, I never use the expression "shabbos goy." I find the expression
>offensive, and I think a lot of other people do too. It may not have
>always been regarded that way, but I think the expression is currently
>often used in a pejorative way.
We say non-Jews, people who are not Jewish, or use similar expressions.
I never say goy or goyim and don't think any of my relatives do; those
who did so have all died.
Susan Silberstein
Don Levey
>
> I never say goy or goyim and don't think any of my relatives do; those
> who did so have all died.
>
I trust that there was no connection.
cindys
> past few days, and thus didn't discover this topic until today. On
> the original question, since my opinion was flatteringly solicited,
> allow me belatedly to respond that GEK's reply is indeed the
> halachically correct one, as is explicit in Shulchan Aruch (Orach
> Chaim 244:1), where the distinction is drawn between a contracted job
> done on a Jew's property or in circumstances where it is known to be
> for a Jew, and where it is not so done. It is prohibited in the
> former cases, and permitted in the latter.
And is the reason it is prohibited when done on the Jew's property but
permitted when taken away and done elsewhere because of ma'aris ayin?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>>Regarding going to the hospital, that makes sense. But IMHO, for what
>>that's worth (little, I know) I would suspect that when it comes to a
>>single action such as turning on the furnace or whatever that if it's
>>halachically acceptable to do it at all, then it'd be better to just do it
>>yourself rather than getting a non-Jew involved.
>No it wouldn't. Did you read the posts that preceded this one?
Yeah, I did. And didn't see an example where you could ask a non-Jew to do
something on Shabbos but not do it yourself. Feel free to provide one.
>>What's the point of getting the non-Jew anyway? If it's permitted it's
>>permitted,
>Do you know how simplistic this sounds? It's not just in Judaism that
>things are not this simple.
Where were you during the great "that which is not prohibited is
permitted' wars?
>> in fact it's even required. So just do it.
>I remember your writing that you thought G-d's giving the Law at Sinai
>was in the second half of the Torah. It's in the middle of the second
>book. I think you should learn a lot more before you try to give
>halachic advice.
What on earth are you talking about?
--s
--
cindys
> In <49fq06tecmmcghhkdjghkai76nsqhoa...@4ax.com> mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >>Regarding going to the hospital, that makes sense. But IMHO, for what
> >>that's worth (little, I know) I would suspect that when it comes to a
> >>single action such as turning on the furnace or whatever that if it's
> >>halachically acceptable to do it at all, then it'd be better to just do it
> >>yourself rather than getting a non-Jew involved.
> >No it wouldn't. Did you read the posts that preceded this one?
>
> Yeah, I did. And didn't see an example where you could ask a non-Jew to do
> something on Shabbos but not do it yourself. Feel free to provide one.
The halachic distinction is whether an action is bonafide pikuach
nefesh (life is in immediate and potentially mortal danger) versus a
non-life-threatening situation but one which is sufficiently dire that
the non-Jew could be asked. Part of the point of asking the non-Jew
rather than doing it one's self is that to do whatever it is (stoking
the furnace, for e.g.) would be a greater sin than asking the non-Jew.
The other possibility (and now I am just speculating) may be the time
consideration. When it comes to shabbos violations, it is halachically
always going to be preferable to ask a non-Jew because it is a sin for
the Jew but not the non-Jew. However, in a situation of *immediate*
danger, if there is no time to find a non-Jew, then the Jew would have
to take immediate action. You asked for an example:
It's shabbos and let's say you hear someone screaming. You see your
neighbor's little girl has climbed a tree and slipped, and as she
fell, her neck got caught in the rope for her tire swing, forming a
noose, and she is on the verge of hanging herself. If someone doesn't
do something this moment, she will break her neck or suffocate and
will die within moments. You race to your garage, grab a tool and cut
her down, saving her life. That's pikuach nefesh.
Alternate situation: When you heard the screaming, you were with your
non-Jewish friend. You both run over and see the above situation. It
will take the same amount of time for your non-Jewish friend to run in
the garage and get a tool to cut her down as it will take you. In this
situation, it is preferable to direct your non-Jewish friend to grab
the tool out of the garage and cut the little girl down rather than
doing it yourself.
(Cutting a rope is an activity forbidden on shabbos, in case anybody
didn't deduce this from my example)
I don't know if I am presenting the distinction correctly or not, but
I am using my own reckoning to try to provide an example.
Best regards,
----Cindy S.
sheldonlg
> On 6/7/2010 14:28, meir b. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Shoveling snow, however, may be in a different category. It is
>> not clear that the act of clearing snow, in and of itself, constitutes
>> any violation of Shabbbat, certainly on a Biblical level (as
>> contrasted with cutting grass, which is a Biblically prohibited act),
>> and thus it would be permitted to arrange with a non-Jew to shovel
>> snow whenever it falls on Shabbat. However, the use of a gas- or
>> electric-powered device would not be permitted.
>>
> I would imagine this could make things difficult when snow removal is
> mandated by the locality (for example, on sidewalks). The legions of
> kids with snowshovels seem fewer and further between; what if all
> available to hire are people with gas-powered snow-blowers? Also, is it
> any different if the locality itself plows one's sidewalk? This doesn't
> even address the large mound of snow left at the bottom of the driveway
> by the snowplough...
That was always the worst part of shoveling. That snow was packed so
hard it weighed a ton (figuratively speaking). I think I'll skip the
next snowfall and just let it melt on its own :-). Welcome to Florida.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
>
> Where were you during the great "that which is not prohibited is
> permitted' wars?
Growing up (nominally Orthodox) I saw it as "that which is not
permitted, is prohibited -- but inventive minds find an allowable way".
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>The halachic distinction is whether an action is bonafide pikuach
>nefesh (life is in immediate and potentially mortal danger) versus a
>non-life-threatening situation but one which is sufficiently dire that
>the non-Jew could be asked. Part of the point of asking the non-Jew
>rather than doing it one's self is that to do whatever it is (stoking
>the furnace, for e.g.) would be a greater sin than asking the non-Jew.
>The other possibility (and now I am just speculating) may be the time
>consideration. When it comes to shabbos violations, it is halachically
>always going to be preferable to ask a non-Jew because it is a sin for
>the Jew but not the non-Jew. However, in a situation of *immediate*
>danger, if there is no time to find a non-Jew, then the Jew would have
>to take immediate action. You asked for an example:
I guess I don't really understand the boundaries of this "sufficiently
dire" scenario you're describing, and I'm not clear on how saying "Excuse
me, Chris, would you flip that light switch?" is any different,
halachically, from flipping a light switch yourself. You caused the action
in both cases. But, it's not really a question subject for debate, if
that's the halacha then that's the halacha.
>It's shabbos and let's say you hear someone screaming. You see your
>neighbor's little girl has climbed a tree and slipped, and as she
>fell, her neck got caught in the rope for her tire swing, forming a
>noose, and she is on the verge of hanging herself. If someone doesn't
>do something this moment, she will break her neck or suffocate and
>will die within moments. You race to your garage, grab a tool and cut
>her down, saving her life. That's pikuach nefesh.
>Alternate situation: When you heard the screaming, you were with your
>non-Jewish friend. You both run over and see the above situation. It
>will take the same amount of time for your non-Jewish friend to run in
>the garage and get a tool to cut her down as it will take you. In this
>situation, it is preferable to direct your non-Jewish friend to grab
>the tool out of the garage and cut the little girl down rather than
>doing it yourself.
I would hope not. In my opinion, both you and your friend should run to
that girl as fast as you possibly can, and whoever gets their first should
cut her down. Hesitating for even one second out of concern for Shabbos or
anything else to my mind shows a reckless disregard for the Torah. Just
my opinion.
Maybe that's a bad example - to me, whether your friend is there or not
both cases are bonafide pikuach nefesh, as a girl's life is in imminent
danger.
I guess I'm having trouble seeing the gray here - if it's a question of
comfort, e.g., you'd really like a light on so that you can read, then my
understanding is even if the non-Jew turned the light on for you but
totally of his own accord you're still not allowed to use it.
If it's more than comfort, e.g., your furnace isn't on and you're
concerned about getting ill due to the cold, then it's pikuach nefesh and
as I understand it you're not only permitted but obligated to turn on the
heat. So why bother a non-Jew at all?
My point is I don't see how going through a non-Jewish intermediary even
helps.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
Well, yeah.
Not to rehash the entire discussion, but it basically came down to a
difference in point of view. Is the glass half full, or half empty? Or in
this case, which statement is more accurate (or are both equally accurate
depending on your point of view?)
1) I can eat absolutely anything I like, as long as it doesn't contain any
prohibited animals or components of prohibited animals, or components of
permitted animals that weren't slaughtered or processed incorrectly, or
were allowed to come into contact with meat (etc..)
2) All food is prohibited, unless one actively ensures that it meets all
standards of kashrus, including that it does not contain, etc., etc.
Those on the other side of the discussion said that version two was
inaccurate and unfair, and that in fact they were free to do absolutely
anything they liked, as long as it wasn't prohibited.
To me, in practice halacha acts much more like number 2, and in my
experience the frum attitude is more like "I can't do anything whatsoever
unless I have explicit precedent from a trusted source that permits it."
For example, the only reason anyone frum eats turkey today is because
someone more or less accidentally started a precedent to permit, even
though turkeys are not prohibited. So that would seem to disprove the
whole notion of "that which is not prohibited is permitted," because if
that were the case then no such precedent would be necessary, but there
you go.
I'm not saying that's the way it's supposed to be, I'm saying in practice
that's how it seems to be. But I have to agree that logically speaking one
can express that notion as "I can do anything unless it's prohibited,"
although I find it misleading at best to do so.
--s
--
cindys
> In <23ab5b86-812b-469e-b5ee-8d78a3ef7...@h13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >The halachic distinction is whether an action is bonafide pikuach
> >nefesh (life is in immediate and potentially mortal danger) versus a
> >non-life-threatening situation but one which is sufficiently dire that
> >the non-Jew could be asked. Part of the point of asking the non-Jew
> >rather than doing it one's self is that to do whatever it is (stoking
> >the furnace, for e.g.) would be a greater sin than asking the non-Jew.
> >The other possibility (and now I am just speculating) may be the time
> >consideration. When it comes to shabbos violations, it is halachically
> >always going to be preferable to ask a non-Jew because it is a sin for
> >the Jew but not the non-Jew. However, in a situation of *immediate*
> >danger, if there is no time to find a non-Jew, then the Jew would have
> >to take immediate action. You asked for an example:
>
> I guess I don't really understand the boundaries of this "sufficiently
> dire" scenario you're describing, and I'm not clear on how saying "Excuse
> me, Chris, would you flip that light switch?" is any different,
> halachically, from flipping a light switch yourself. You caused the action
> in both cases. But, it's not really a question subject for debate, if
> that's the halacha then that's the halacha.
I would agree that asking the non-Jew to flip the light switch for you
is prohibited (despite the fact that I hear/see ostensibly Orthodox
Jews do this all the time). That having been said, I believe the
infraction is different, i.e., if you flipped the light switch
yourself, you are mechallel shabbos (violated one of the 39
prohibitions). If you ask the non-Jew do it for you, you are not
mechallel shabbos but you have violated the halacha of amira l'akum
(asking the non-Jew) on some level, which is let's say the lesser of
the evils but still forbidden.
>
> >It's shabbos and let's say you hear someone screaming. You see your
> >neighbor's little girl has climbed a tree and slipped, and as she
> >fell, her neck got caught in the rope for her tire swing, forming a
> >noose, and she is on the verge of hanging herself. If someone doesn't
> >do something this moment, she will break her neck or suffocate and
> >will die within moments. You race to your garage, grab a tool and cut
> >her down, saving her life. That's pikuach nefesh.
> >Alternate situation: When you heard the screaming, you were with your
> >non-Jewish friend. You both run over and see the above situation. It
> >will take the same amount of time for your non-Jewish friend to run in
> >the garage and get a tool to cut her down as it will take you. In this
> >situation, it is preferable to direct your non-Jewish friend to grab
> >the tool out of the garage and cut the little girl down rather than
> >doing it yourself.
>
> I would hope not. In my opinion, both you and your friend should run to
> that girl as fast as you possibly can, and whoever gets their first should
> cut her down. Hesitating for even one second out of concern for Shabbos or
> anything else to my mind shows a reckless disregard for the Torah. Just
> my opinion.
Sigh. I was trying to come up with a theoretical example. Sorry if you
didn't like it.
>
> Maybe that's a bad example - to me, whether your friend is there or not
> both cases are bonafide pikuach nefesh, as a girl's life is in imminent
> danger.
Okay, a bad example.
>
> I guess I'm having trouble seeing the gray here - if it's a question of
> comfort, e.g., you'd really like a light on so that you can read, then my
> understanding is even if the non-Jew turned the light on for you but
> totally of his own accord you're still not allowed to use it.
That is my understanding as well. To be more specific, if the room
were previously dimly lit, but not so dark that you couldn't read
(let's say you could read but with difficulty), if the non-Jew turns
on the light for his own use, you can share it. But, if the room had
previously been pitch black, even if the non-Jew turns on the light
for his own use, you can't make use of it and have to leave the room.
I don't know what is the reasoning behind any of this, and I suspect
that many poskim (halachic decisors) do not hold this way. CYLOR.
>
> If it's more than comfort, e.g., your furnace isn't on and you're
> concerned about getting ill due to the cold, then it's pikuach nefesh
That's not pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh refers to a situation of
immediate danger where loss of life is imminent. What you are
describing is more appropriately called a health concern, and what is
frequently (mistakenly) referred to as pikuach nefesh by people who
don't know the halacha (no offense intended). Last week, I butted
heads with my son's doctor who wanted to perform an elective surgical
procedure on him on a Friday afternoon (with the possibility for
keeping him in the hospital past candlelighting) when it could as
easily have been scheduled for another day. He argued with me that it
would be okay to violate shabbos because it was a "health reason." I
didn't want to get into a halachic argument with the guy, but an
elective procedure is *not* pikuach nefesh. (My son ended up having
the procedure on Friday morning, and we were home by Friday
afternoon).
>and
> as I understand it you're not only permitted but obligated to turn on the
> heat.
You may be obligated to have the heat on (not sure about this), but
assuming you are, there is no law that says *you* are obligated to
turn it on yourself.
>So why bother a non-Jew at all?
You've set up a premise where asking the non-Jew is just as serious as
violating shabbos, but it's not. By asking the non-Jew, you avoid
being mechallel shabbos. So, even though it's not ideal to ask a non-
Jew, it's much worse to violate shabbos than to ask the non-Jew. I
know R' Ribiat discusses this. I just can't spend the time to do the
research and then type it all out. Maybe I will later.
>
> My point is I don't see how going through a non-Jewish intermediary even
> helps.
I think it's because you're committing a small transgression in the
interest of avoiding a large one. Going back to the situation of
pikuach nefesh: If someone's life is in danger, and there are multiple
people around who can save the person, a Jew is *not* obligated to
participate if it would mean being mechallel shabbos in order to do
so. He would be obligated only if there were no alternative and the
person would die without his intervention. I think that's the point
of confusion. You seem to be arguing that the Jew is obligated to
participate in the lifesaving activities even if there are other
people around who could do so easily without the Jew's help. If the
little girl is caught in the tree, and there are already six people
involved who will easily be able to cut her down without the Jew's
help, the Jew doesn't need to be number seven if it will make him
mechallel shabbos.
As always, CYLOR.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>I would agree that asking the non-Jew to flip the light switch for you
>is prohibited (despite the fact that I hear/see ostensibly Orthodox
>Jews do this all the time). That having been said, I believe the
>infraction is different, i.e., if you flipped the light switch
>yourself, you are mechallel shabbos (violated one of the 39
>prohibitions). If you ask the non-Jew do it for you, you are not
>mechallel shabbos but you have violated the halacha of amira l'akum
>(asking the non-Jew) on some level, which is let's say the lesser of
>the evils but still forbidden.
I guess it hinges on the notion of agency, I think that's the term, and I
really don't know much if anything about halacha treats the idea, although
I know it comes up in regards to melacha where if something is
sufficiently disconnected from your act it's permitted, e.g., opening the
refrigerator and having the motor come on versus opening the refrigerator
and having the light come on. Where I'm coming from is it seems to me that
tapping a non-Jew on the shoulder and saying "please flip that
lightswitch" is precisely the same as opening the refrigerator door and
turning on the light. Actually "worse," since your intent in tapping the
non-Jew is to turn on the light, while it's only a side-effect of opening
the refrigerator.
To take another example, if I have my chauffeur drive me to shul on
Saturday morning, aren't I just as mechallel shabbos as if I'd driven
myself? Or not?
>> I guess I'm having trouble seeing the gray here - if it's a question of
>> comfort, e.g., you'd really like a light on so that you can read, then my
>> understanding is even if the non-Jew turned the light on for you but
>> totally of his own accord you're still not allowed to use it.
>That is my understanding as well. To be more specific, if the room
>were previously dimly lit, but not so dark that you couldn't read
>(let's say you could read but with difficulty), if the non-Jew turns
>on the light for his own use, you can share it. But, if the room had
>previously been pitch black, even if the non-Jew turns on the light
>for his own use, you can't make use of it and have to leave the room.
>I don't know what is the reasoning behind any of this, and I suspect
>that many poskim (halachic decisors) do not hold this way. CYLOR.
OK, so that's my question - if you're prohibited to benefit from a
non-Jew's actions undertaken for his own benefit and at his own direction,
then how can you benefit from his actions taken at YOUR direction and
exclusively for YOUR benefit? I'm not clear on how having the non-Jew act
as your agent "helps" in any way, halachically. Seems that if it's
prohibited for you, it's prohibited for him to do it for you as well.
>>
>> If it's more than comfort, e.g., your furnace isn't on and you're
>> concerned about getting ill due to the cold, then it's pikuach nefesh
>That's not pikuach nefesh. Pikuach nefesh refers to a situation of
>immediate danger where loss of life is imminent. What you are
>describing is more appropriately called a health concern, and what is
>frequently (mistakenly) referred to as pikuach nefesh by people who
>don't know the halacha (no offense intended). Last week, I butted
>heads with my son's doctor who wanted to perform an elective surgical
>procedure on him on a Friday afternoon (with the possibility for
>keeping him in the hospital past candlelighting) when it could as
>easily have been scheduled for another day. He argued with me that it
>would be okay to violate shabbos because it was a "health reason." I
>didn't want to get into a halachic argument with the guy, but an
>elective procedure is *not* pikuach nefesh. (My son ended up having
>the procedure on Friday morning, and we were home by Friday
>afternoon).
OK, fair enough - I wasn't aware of the distinction. So are you saying
that one can ask a non-Jew to perform a melacha on your behalf if it's for
a health consideration? That's an awfully wide loophole, if it's true, as
pretty much anything can be described in terms of one's health ("if I read
in this dim light I'll damage my eyes...")
>>and
>> as I understand it you're not only permitted but obligated to turn on the
>> heat.
>You may be obligated to have the heat on (not sure about this), but
>assuming you are, there is no law that says *you* are obligated to
>turn it on yourself.
>>So why bother a non-Jew at all?
>You've set up a premise where asking the non-Jew is just as serious as
>violating shabbos, but it's not. By asking the non-Jew, you avoid
>being mechallel shabbos. So, even though it's not ideal to ask a non-
>Jew, it's much worse to violate shabbos than to ask the non-Jew. I
>know R' Ribiat discusses this. I just can't spend the time to do the
>research and then type it all out. Maybe I will later.
But that's specifically my question - why is using a non-Jew's hand to
light a fire different from lighting a fire yourself? The other example
would seem to indicate that it's not, so I'm wondering under what
circumstances it's different.
>>
>> My point is I don't see how going through a non-Jewish intermediary even
>> helps.
>I think it's because you're committing a small transgression in the
>interest of avoiding a large one. Going back to the situation of
>pikuach nefesh: If someone's life is in danger, and there are multiple
>people around who can save the person, a Jew is *not* obligated to
>participate if it would mean being mechallel shabbos in order to do
>so. He would be obligated only if there were no alternative and the
>person would die without his intervention. I think that's the point
>of confusion. You seem to be arguing that the Jew is obligated to
>participate in the lifesaving activities even if there are other
>people around who could do so easily without the Jew's help. If the
>little girl is caught in the tree, and there are already six people
>involved who will easily be able to cut her down without the Jew's
>help, the Jew doesn't need to be number seven if it will make him
>mechallel shabbos.
I see the two cases where one's help is needed, and thus he's required to
violate shabbos in order to assist, and where one's help is not needed,
and thus he may not violate shabbos to assist. It's the middle ground I'm
not getting - the circumstance where it's dire enough that you can utilize
a non-Jew as your agent, but not so dire that you can just do it yourself.
See what I mean? I'm not that interested at this point in debating the
specific circumstances that would constitute pikuach nefesh, I'm wondering
about that intermediate zone.
--s
--
Yisroel Markov
<abek...@gmail.com> said:
[snip]
>In the days of my Orthodox youth I never came across this problem, as we had
>no grass in Williamsburg or Boro Park to cut. And certainly we had no money
>to pay someone else to cut it.
>
>As for MHO, the Karaite in me says that the same law applies to the Goy on
>my property for my benefit as it does to me.
Since it was the Rabbis who forbade telling a non-Jew to do melakhot
for you on Shabbat, perhaps it's your inner Rabbinite talking :-)
(D'oraita, asking is 100% OK. We're not talking a ger toshav here -
"stranger in your gates" - but a total foreigner. Amira l'akum means
"telling an idolater." Yes, I know I'm presuming the conclusion.)
>Checking the responsa, the Avnei Nezer, Orach Chaim, Siman 41, Divrei
>Hamathil (Gimmel) Al ken nireh li al daat haRa"n z"l ... even if the Goy did
>it to benefit the Jew, even without being instructed, even without
>expectation of renumeration, it would still be prohibited.
Not "still," but "much more so." In this situation, the non-Jew just
being nice only makes things worse for the Jew.
>Be that as it may, entering a doorman building and asking for Moshe Levy,
>and then entering the elevator with the doorman pushing the right button, is
>common practice among the MO in Manhattan. So is common for the custodian to
>turn on or off the A/C in shul.
>
>Perhaps Micha will say that its the fault of Rav Soloveitchik followers
>allowing themselves such leniencies.
Whoever's fault it is, it does appear to be a halakhic violation.
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
sheldonlg
<snip>
It is amazing how threads grow, isn't it. I asked a simple, innocuous,
question and it was, well, off to the races.
Summarizing
-----------
Consensus, or at least majority decision: It is a violation of halacha
and, hence, "not kosher".
There are times where halacha mandates violating Shabbat -- to save a
life (but that isn't my or Cindy's case). I don't think anyone
disagrees with that principle, only where the line is to be drawn.
In today's world, at least, "goy" is considered a pejorative by many.
All the rest seems to be rehash and rehash. IOW, IMHO this thread has
run its course.
--
Shelly
cindys
> On 6/7/2010 6:21 PM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
> <snip>
>
> It is amazing how threads grow, isn't it. I asked a simple, innocuous,
> question and it was, well, off to the races.
>
> Summarizing
> -----------
> Consensus, or at least majority decision: It is a violation of halacha
> and, hence, "not kosher".
Halacha is not based on "consensus." The only reason you are dealing
with a consensus or "majority decision" on SCJM is because most of the
people participating in this thread (including myself) don't know the
halacha well enough. The opinion that you should really take seriously
is meir b. He knows the halacha. Steve and I are just playing at it.
>
> There are times where halacha mandates violating Shabbat -- to save a
> life (but that isn't my or Cindy's case). I don't think anyone
> disagrees with that principle, only where the line is to be drawn.
But it's still not open to personal opinion. People who care about
being shomer shabbos are going to hold by the halachic definition of
pikuach nefesh. It's not the sort of thing that is left open to
personal interpretation (from a legitimately halachic perspective). If
people posting to SCJM are disagreeing about where the line is to be
drawn, again, it's because we really don't know the halacha, and
therefore we are just guessing it. It doesn't make us halachic
decisors where all of our opinions are equally legitimate and hold
equal weight. A few of us (obviously not me) sat in yeshiva for years
and studied halacha in depth. Others of us (like me), studied halacha
on his/her own in a lot less depth and learned how to use a reference
book. Others of us haven't studied halacha at all and don't use/own a
reference book. So, there is a big disparity in how much weight should
be given to what is being posted (on the basis of who is posting it).
>
> In today's world, at least, "goy" is considered a pejorative by many.
>
> All the rest seems to be rehash and rehash. IOW, IMHO this thread has
> run its course.
It's really not hash and rehash, but it is really time-consuming.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.