Kvetching About Wives
Yisroel Markov
contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
game.
Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
thing, a religious thing, or what - that we don't complain to each
other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
(Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
"The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
more readable.)
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
mm
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>From reading literature and my (admittedly limited) exposure to
>contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
>the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
>complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
>cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
>game.
That's the popular image, at least it was when I was growing up. Not
sure how long it's been since I've seen it portrayed this way.
>
>Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
>I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
>thing, a religious thing,
It's certainly not just true among religious Jews. But one of the
points I frequently make is that many Jewish practices of religious
Jews last for generations after the family is no longer religious.
They don't learn them in cheder or yeshiva but from their parents.
>or what - that we don't complain to each
>other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
It's loshon hora. It's tasteless.
>premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
Your group of men is not a fluke.
What we really need to know more about is goyish men.
When I used to go out to a bar after work with goyish co-workers, most
were single.
When most were married, it wasn't NYC, I don't think anyone went to a
bar, I worked late, and we probably didn't have the kind of
relationship that they would talk about this with me, especially since
I was single.
Tom was close enough that he might have, but I don't think his wife
was typical. He brought in pictures of her having a child, by
Caesarean, complete with her uterus lying on top of her belly. It was
enlightening. I had assumed they left it in place when they cut it
open to take out the baby, but no! Somehow they took the whole thing
out. It seemed like it was only connected at one end, but I think it's
connected to something at both ends. It went from her belly to 4 to 6
inches above her belly. Other than that, there was nothing
immodest** about the pictures, but I say she was not typical because
afaik, she knew that he was showing these pictures to everyone at work
and she didn't mind. If she didn't mind that, I wonder what there
could have been to complain about!
Is there any way I could have misread the pictures? How do they do
this usually?
**Is it considered immmodest to show internal organs? I've never seen
them on a list of what a woman or man should cover.
>And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
This was not a Jewish survey, but an American one, and it said that
men had a set of about 4 or 5 things they wanted in a wife, someone
they could talk to, confide in; someone who was somewhat pretty, and
they gave one or two more I don't remember.
Women had a list of 200 things they wanted in a husband. I guess
anything you could think of and more would be in the list.
>(Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>"The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>more readable.)
From what language, to what language that Don etc. read?
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Patty
> From reading literature and my (admittedly limited) exposure to
> contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
> the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
> complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
> cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
> game.
>
> Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
> I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
> thing, a religious thing, or what - that we don't complain to each
> other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
> premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
>
> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>
> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
> more readable.)
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Couple of things going on here.
One is good old Freudian displacement. If they don't gripe about
their wives, they have to admit that they're causing at least part of
the problems in the relationship.
Another is the guy/man dichotomy. The classic statement goes like
this. When a guy breaks something around the house, he does one of
three things. He hides it and hopes nobody asks about it; he tries to
fix it himself and makes things worse; or he blames it on somebody
else. A man either doesn't break it in the first place, or fixes it
himself but ONLY if he knows what he's doing, or he pays an expert to
fix it, or he buys a replacement if possible. At any rate, the guy
tries to slide and the man deals.
A man realizes he's not perfect either and keeps his mouth shut in
company. The people doing the griping about their wives are guys.
Nobody held a shotgun to their heads to make them marry whoever it
was, and if somebody did hold a shotgun to their heads, that just
proves they're guys because men either don't do what causes shotgun
weddings or they deal without needing the shotgun.
Women don't gripe, they just do the "look" thing and then handle the
situation themselves, with or without a disbelieving shake of the head
in between. You know the "look". It combines "I can't believe you
just said/did that" with "don't you even go there." I have it. I was
in the laundromat one day and there were two little boys between seven
and nine, no parent in sight, doing what little boys that age do.
They were sitting in a couple of the chairs the laundromat provides
for customers and one of them lifted up both feet to give the other
that stomp that would have started a real fight. I gave them the
"look", didn't say a word, and the stomper thought better of it.
Maybe Jews are better at raising males to be men and Americans tend to
raise guys.
sheldonlg
> From reading literature and my (admittedly limited) exposure to
> contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
> the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
> complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
> cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
> game.
>
> Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
> I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
> thing, a religious thing, or what - that we don't complain to each
> other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
> premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
IMHO, and from my experience with a mostly non-Jewish group of friends
over the years, it is a statistical fluke. Sports, politics, etc. are
the usual topics. Men don't generally get into personal matters with
other men.
>
> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
I think so.
>
> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
> more readable.)
>
The link didn't work.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>IMHO, and from my experience with a mostly non-Jewish group of friends
>over the years, it is a statistical fluke. Sports, politics, etc. are
>the usual topics. Men don't generally get into personal matters with
>other men.
Yeah, exactly right. Often to the chagrin of our wives.
"Hey, Joe's getting married," I might say, and then an entire list of
question will follow, e.g., where's she from, what's she like, where did
she go to school, where is the ceremony going to be, where are they going
on their honeymoon, how did they meet, etc., etc., the answer to all of
which would be "Dunno, we didn't talk about it."
--s
--
Don Levey
> From reading literature and my (admittedly limited) exposure to
> contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
> the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
> complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
> cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
> game.
>
> Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
> I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
> thing, a religious thing, or what - that we don't complain to each
> other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
> premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
>
that wouldn't be an absolute. I know of some more observant men who
complain about their wives, but most don't seem to. On the other hand,
the more secular ones seem more likely to.
Even still, I I don't see the same kind of griping that I've seen from
non-Jewish men, but that seems to be more socio-economic rather than
religious (based upon the small groups with which I have personal
experience)
Even still, there seems to be a clear line between griping and serious
complaining. Those who do the former appear to have strong and enduring
relationships, while those who do the latter don't seem to last. Again,
this is from my own personal observation only.
> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>
I can't say specifically about Jewish women. However, I have been privy
to the talk of women (mixed-religion groups, non-Jewish groups) and they
seem to gripe at greater length and with more significant detail than
the men. Sometimes it is of no consequence, sometimes they are looking
for support and validation.
Most of the men I know are reticent in comparison. One of the
prototypical complaints about men, reportedly from women, is that men
don't share. While you may have heard quite an earful, that which I've
heard hasn't hit the same scale as what I've heard from women.
> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
> more readable.)
>
I've read some (but not all) of it. As to English readability, I don't
have issues, though my reading style is a bit off-beat. The subject
itself was another story; it felt that the original author was taking
characters with the same names and trying to wrench the story into
another, for a specific political agenda. It's difficult for me to get
past this, but as we also differ politically it may be that you didn't
run into the same problem.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Steve Goldfarb
>From reading literature and my (admittedly limited) exposure to
>contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
>the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
>complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
>cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
>game.
>Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
>I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
>thing, a religious thing, or what - that we don't complain to each
>other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
>premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
We're too afraid of them to even voice our complaints, word might get
back! :-)
Seriously though in my experience, while the men I know like to complain
about women in general, even with my good friends we don't generally
complain about our wives, not in any real specific way. Sometimes we joke
about general stuff, "don't you hate it when they nag" kinda thing, but
not actual specifics.
If a friend wanted to discuss problems he was having that'd be one thing,
but I think I'd be pretty uncomfortable (and so would other people) with
actual, specific complaints about one's wife. But we do talk about stuff
we probably all have in common, as I said before, sit-com style complaints
that are actually true - but nothing that they'd be embarrassed about if
they found out we were talking about it.
For one thing you'd end up talking about real emotions and stuff, which is
something we generally don't do :-)
>And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
I have no doubt that they do :-) And I think women get into a lot more
detail / specifics than men do.
>(Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>"The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>more readable.)
>
I'll check it out.
--s
--
Abe Kohen
"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
news:c8bjt5pdos9dvruli...@4ax.com...
> From reading literature and my (admittedly limited) exposure to
> contemporary American pop culture, I get the impression that one of
> the favorite things for men to do when they get together is to
> complain about their wives to each other. Everything from their
> cooking to how often they're willing to have sex seems to be fair
> game.
>
> Yet I have never observed this behavior in any group of Jewish men
> I've been in, whatever their observance level. So is it a Jewish
> thing, a religious thing, or what - that we don't complain to each
> other about our wives? Did we just all marry perfect women? Or is my
> premise simply invalid and my group of men is a statistical fluke?
>
> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about their
husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood every
word) disected their husbands' behavior in the kitchen and in bed.
AFAIK, most men do not kvetch about their wives to other men, but they might
to other women!
Best,
Abe
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about their
> husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
> overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood every
> word) disected their husbands' behavior in the kitchen and in bed.
And when they finished, did you not say "Have a nice day" to them,
in Hungarian!
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Yisroel Markov
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>On 4/30/2010 02:17, Yisroel Markov wrote:
[snip]
>> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>> more readable.)
(Shelly, what kind of an error did you get?)
>I've read some (but not all) of it. As to English readability, I don't
>have issues, though my reading style is a bit off-beat. The subject
>itself was another story; it felt that the original author was taking
>characters with the same names and trying to wrench the story into
>another, for a specific political agenda. It's difficult for me to get
>past this, but as we also differ politically it may be that you didn't
>run into the same problem.
[scratching head] A political agenda? I honestly don't see one. To
quote the author: "This book grew out of an attempt to deal with the
oft-quoted economical and geographical contradictions of the LOTR
books and show that they really are not contradictions. However, once
you deal with it as if it were a real World (albeit with magic
present), you have to grapple with the LOTR epos most likely being the
hagiography of the victors, with all that entails. So I decided to
take an alternative look at the story. Treating it as real required
having no a priori evil races. There's plenty of evil, sure, but the
lines between it and the good are drawn less starkly - more like in
real life. Even the Elves aren't really evil, just very different.
Ever read the Silmarillion? If that's what the Fair Folk is capable of
when dealing with internal enemies, how do you think they'd treat
those of other races?"
It doesn't seem at all political to me. To be fair, though, the author
is not a professional writer, but a well-known (in his circles)
paleoenthomologist; he is a pro-democracy sceptic and an active
participant in anti-creationist activities. He had also authored a
popular series spoofing spy thrillers and a Gospel According to
Afranius, which answered a Christian apologist's challenge to explain
the events related in the Gospels without invoking Divine
intervention.
Don Levey
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:08:43 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>
>> On 4/30/2010 02:17, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>>> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>>> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>>> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>>> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>>> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>>> more readable.)
>
> (Shelly, what kind of an error did you get?)
>
>> I've read some (but not all) of it. As to English readability, I don't
>> have issues, though my reading style is a bit off-beat. The subject
>> itself was another story; it felt that the original author was taking
>> characters with the same names and trying to wrench the story into
>> another, for a specific political agenda. It's difficult for me to get
>> past this, but as we also differ politically it may be that you didn't
>> run into the same problem.
>
> [scratching head] A political agenda? I honestly don't see one.
We may want to take this to private communication, so as not to go so
far off-topic that we can't find the way back...
sheldonlg
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:08:43 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>
>> On 4/30/2010 02:17, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>>> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>>> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>>> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>>> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>>> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>>> more readable.)
>
> (Shelly, what kind of an error did you get?)
Server not found
>
>> I've read some (but not all) of it. As to English readability, I don't
>> have issues, though my reading style is a bit off-beat. The subject
>> itself was another story; it felt that the original author was taking
>> characters with the same names and trying to wrench the story into
>> another, for a specific political agenda. It's difficult for me to get
>> past this, but as we also differ politically it may be that you didn't
>> run into the same problem.
>
> [scratching head] A political agenda? I honestly don't see one. To
> quote the author: "This book grew out of an attempt to deal with the
> oft-quoted economical and geographical contradictions of the LOTR
> books and show that they really are not contradictions. However, once
> you deal with it as if it were a real World (albeit with magic
> present), you have to grapple with the LOTR epos most likely being the
> hagiography of the victors, with all that entails. So I decided to
> take an alternative look at the story. Treating it as real required
> having no a priori evil races. There's plenty of evil, sure, but the
> lines between it and the good are drawn less starkly - more like in
> real life. Even the Elves aren't really evil, just very different.
The Elves were good guys. Did you mean the trolls?
> Ever read the Silmarillion? If that's what the Fair Folk is capable of
> when dealing with internal enemies, how do you think they'd treat
> those of other races?"
>
> It doesn't seem at all political to me. To be fair, though, the author
> is not a professional writer, but a well-known (in his circles)
> paleoenthomologist; he is a pro-democracy sceptic and an active
> participant in anti-creationist activities. He had also authored a
> popular series spoofing spy thrillers and a Gospel According to
> Afranius, which answered a Christian apologist's challenge to explain
> the events related in the Gospels without invoking Divine
> intervention.
--
Shelly
Abe Kohen
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2010May...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>>"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>>
>> Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about their
>> husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
>> overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood every
>> word) disected their husbands' behavior in the kitchen and in bed.
>
> And when they finished, did you not say "Have a nice day" to them,
> in Hungarian!
Not to these women. They would have been extremely embarrased. Same thing
with the young ladies on an Upper West Side elevator switching to their
one-year-in-Israel Hebrew to discuss their period. Did not want to embarrass
them either.
OTOH, if only innocuous conversation took place then I say "Have a nice day"
in Hungarian or something nice in Hebrew.
Best,
Abe
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>>"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>>>
>>> Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about their
>>> husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
>>> overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood every
>>> word) disected their husbands' behavior in the kitchen and in bed.
>>
>> And when they finished, did you not say "Have a nice day" to them,
>> in Hungarian!
>
> Not to these women. They would have been extremely embarrased.
It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
discussion in public.
> Same thing with the young ladies on an Upper West Side elevator
> switching to their one-year-in-Israel Hebrew to discuss their
> period. Did not want to embarrass them either.
It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
discussion in public.
Don Levey
> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> "Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>>>>
>>>> Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about their
>>>> husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
>>>> overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood every
>>>
>>> And when they finished, did you not say "Have a nice day" to them,
>>> in Hungarian!
>>
>> Not to these women. They would have been extremely embarrased.
>
> It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
> discussion in public.
>
>> Same thing with the young ladies on an Upper West Side elevator
>> switching to their one-year-in-Israel Hebrew to discuss their
>> period. Did not want to embarrass them either.
>
> It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
> discussion in public.
>
thought that they were NOT (effectively) in public. On the other hand,
it would teach them the value of not making assumptions, which may be
even more valuable.
mm
>"Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>>>>
>>>> Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about their
>>>> husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
>>>> overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood every
>>>> word) disected their husbands' behavior in the kitchen and in bed.
>>>
>>> And when they finished, did you not say "Have a nice day" to them,
>>> in Hungarian!
>>
>> Not to these women. They would have been extremely embarrased.
>
>It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
>discussion in public.
By "in public", do you mean among themselves (2 of them) or in a
public NY park. If the former, is that really public?**
If the latter, is it really public in a NY park in NYC where there
definitely are some who speak Hungarian, but not more than maybe 2%.
That's probably why they spoke in Hungarian to begin with. And those
people aren't likely to know them or their husbands. If they had seen
anyone they recognized, they would have stopped, I'm sure. Abe didn't
know them.
So far, I agree with Abe, here. Is it really worth embarrassing them
for this?
**Not that I think one should be telling another about her husband. I
think not. But that's another issue.
>
>> Same thing with the young ladies on an Upper West Side elevator
>> switching to their one-year-in-Israel Hebrew to discuss their
>> period. Did not want to embarrass them either.
>
>It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
>discussion in public.
Pretty much the same reply. And there's a big difference I think
between discussing intimate details of oneself, versus someone else,
including one's spouse.
I think Abe did the right thing both times.
Yisroel Markov
<shel...@giganews.com> said:
>On 5/5/2010 8:50 AM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:08:43 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
>> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>>
>>> On 4/30/2010 02:17, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>>>> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>>>> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>>>> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>>>> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>>>> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>>>> more readable.)
>>
>> (Shelly, what kind of an error did you get?)
>
>Server not found
Extra letter, sorry. It's markov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf
>>> I've read some (but not all) of it. As to English readability, I don't
>>> have issues, though my reading style is a bit off-beat. The subject
>>> itself was another story; it felt that the original author was taking
>>> characters with the same names and trying to wrench the story into
>>> another, for a specific political agenda. It's difficult for me to get
>>> past this, but as we also differ politically it may be that you didn't
>>> run into the same problem.
>>
>> [scratching head] A political agenda? I honestly don't see one. To
>> quote the author: "This book grew out of an attempt to deal with the
>> oft-quoted economical and geographical contradictions of the LOTR
>> books and show that they really are not contradictions. However, once
>> you deal with it as if it were a real World (albeit with magic
>> present), you have to grapple with the LOTR epos most likely being the
>> hagiography of the victors, with all that entails. So I decided to
>> take an alternative look at the story. Treating it as real required
>> having no a priori evil races. There's plenty of evil, sure, but the
>> lines between it and the good are drawn less starkly - more like in
>> real life. Even the Elves aren't really evil, just very different.
>
>The Elves were good guys. Did you mean the trolls?
They were the good guys in LOTR. "Hagiography of the victors,"
remember? In this story they are just another race competing for
limited resources. Their aim is the destruction of Mordorian
civilization, whose progress threatens to develop technology high
enough to counter magic. They're the only non-human race; Trolls are
another race of Men, as are Orcs.
It's a very different story, definitely not for anyone with a large
emotional investment into Elves :-)
[snip]
mm
wrote:
>
>>
>>> Same thing with the young ladies on an Upper West Side elevator
>>> switching to their one-year-in-Israel Hebrew to discuss their
>>> period. Did not want to embarrass them either.
>>
>>It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
>>discussion in public.
>
>Pretty much the same reply. And there's a big difference I think
>between discussing intimate details of oneself, versus someone else,
>including one's spouse.
To reply to myself. Maybe there is a difference, maybe their isn't.
One is not allowed to kill himself, no more iiac than to kill someone
else.
But what about being immodest in talking about oneself versus in
talking about someone else. Or in embarrasssing oneself, compare to
embarrassing someone else. Is it worse to do it to someone else?
Harry Weiss
I agree with you. there is no reason to emabarrass those people.
> --
> Meir
> "The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
sheldonlg
> On Wed, 5 May 2010 16:07:02 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
> <shel...@giganews.com> said:
>
>> On 5/5/2010 8:50 AM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:08:43 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
>>> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>>>
>>>> On 4/30/2010 02:17, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>> (Incidentally - Don, Shelly, Steve - since you've expressed a modicum
>>>>> of interest in LOTR, I report that I've completed my translation of
>>>>> "The Last Ring-Bearer," the [very] alternative look at the events of
>>>>> the War of the Ring. It's at ymarkov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf and at
>>>>> 137,000 words it's smaller than the "Fellowship of the Ring" which is
>>>>> 174,000, but still sizable. I'd appreciate advice on how to make it
>>>>> more readable.)
>>>
>>> (Shelly, what kind of an error did you get?)
>>
>> Server not found
>
> Extra letter, sorry. It's markov.podval.org/LastRB.pdf
It has been "loading" now for over 15 minutes. How about proving a
download capability? That way we can read it locally. I get to your
home page almost immediately in another window.
--
Shelly
Henry Goodman
>> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> And do Jewish women complain to each other about us?
>>>>
>>>> Based on observation, almost all wives complain to each other about
>>>> their
>>>> husbands. Anecdotally, I was sitting in the park with my Mrs. when I
>>>> overheard two Hungarian women (not having a clue that I understood
>>>> every
>>>> word) disected their husbands' behavior in the kitchen and in bed.
>>>
>>> And when they finished, did you not say "Have a nice day" to them,
>>> in Hungarian!
>>
>> Not to these women. They would have been extremely embarrased.
>
> It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
> discussion in public.
>
>> Same thing with the young ladies on an Upper West Side elevator
>> switching to their one-year-in-Israel Hebrew to discuss their
>> period. Did not want to embarrass them either.
>
> It might have taught them a lesson about what's legitimate for
> discussion in public.
>
It would have been "malbin pnay chavero brabim"; embarrassing a fellow-Jew
which is considered to be a major sin.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net