Stuck on a cruise shp without power

[mm]

Let's assume that during the second week of February, you are on a
pleasure cruise around the Gulf of Mexico,, with stops scheduled in
Vera Cruz and Cancun, but because of a power failure, your cabin does
not have air-conditioning, tv, water, or a working toilet. and on the
whole ship there are only 4 working toilets for 5000 people. There
is no hot food to eat and no cold drinks to drink, and the ship is
adrift, and must be towed back to Texas, but has drifted so far NE
that it must be towed instead to Mobile Alabama This will take two
more days.

As the ship gets within range of the Alabama coast, helicopters with
TV news camera crews appear above you. Ten or more groups of people
write messages requesting help or expressing distress on their bed
sheets and stretch them as awnings where the helicopter photographers
can and do photograph them.

Do you do the same thing?

Why or why not?
--

Meir

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

Probably not. Why would I? And why are these groups displaying these
messages? The news peopl;e in the helicopters are well aware of the
distress. And if they could do anything to help, they would already be
doing it.

No doubt this subject has some Jewish culture interest, but I am
unable to discern what it might be. What am I missing?

GEK

[topazgalaxy]

On Mar 3, 5:14 pm, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

were you stuck on that cruise ship (Carnival) and could the people
on that ship really known that the helicopters above them were full
of TV camera crews rather than assistance real assistance for them?

We don't really know what the people on the ship knew exactly, and
when they knew it.


And how is this on topic?

[mm]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:17:42 +0000 (UTC), topazgalaxy
<topaz...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mar 3, 5:14 pm, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> Let's assume that during the second week of February,  you are on a
>> pleasure cruise around the Gulf of Mexico,, with stops scheduled in
>> Vera Cruz and Cancun, but because of a power failure, your cabin does
>> not have air-conditioning, tv, water, or  a working toilet. and on the
>> whole ship there are only 4 working toilets for 5000 people.   There
>> is no hot food to eat and no cold drinks to drink, and the ship is
>> adrift, and must be towed back to Texas, but has drifted so far NE
>> that it must be towed instead to Mobile Alabama  This will take two
>> more days.
>>
>> As the ship  gets within range of the Alabama coast, helicopters with
>> TV news camera crews appear above you. Ten or more groups of people
>> write messages requesting help or expressing distress on their bed
>> sheets and stretch them as awnings where the helicopter photographers
>> can and do photograph them.
>>
>> Do you do the same thing?
>>
>> Why or why not?
>> --
>>
>> Meir
>
>were you stuck on that cruise ship (Carnival)

No, I'm glad to say. . I want to assume that you were.

>and could the people
>on that ship really known that the helicopters above them were full
>of TV camera crews rather than assistance real assistance for them?

Yes. They could see t he cameramen in the helipcopter doorways and see
the cameras they were holding. Plus some copters would have had the
call letters of TV stations on them. Plus I don't think any of the
copters landed, or people would have wanted hot food. Plus there is
only room for one helicopter at a time, at most. They just took
pictures and left.

>
>We don't really know what the people on the ship knew exactly, and
>when they knew it.

Let's assume, what I think is the case, that by this time, many people
on board had called family and friends and they knew this was already
a news story in the US.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/14/sos-messages-on-bed-sheets-and-a-shanty-town-on-deck-pics-of-the-stranded-carnival-cruise-passengers-as-ship-limps-to-alabama/
seems to supporrt this notion
"Passengers speaking by phone to news stations and to family have
described the squalid conditions, which include raw sewage, waiting
hours in line for food and sleeping on deck."

I think sheets continued to be used AFTER thes phone converstaions.

The url above has pictures of some sheets or towels but what I saw on
TV were much bigger.

So would you have written messages on your bedsheets and displayed
them to the cameras like others were doing???

>
>And how is this on topic?

I was hoping you and Geogies would figure that out.

--

Meir

[mm]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 13:59:22 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:17:42 +0000 (UTC), topazgalaxy
><topaz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 3, 5:14 pm, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> Let's assume that during the second week of February,  you are on a
>>> pleasure cruise around the Gulf of Mexico,, with stops scheduled in
>>> Vera Cruz and Cancun, but because of a power failure, your cabin does
>>> not have air-conditioning, tv, water, or  a working toilet. and on the
>>> whole ship there are only 4 working toilets for 5000 people.   There
>>> is no hot food to eat and no cold drinks to drink, and the ship is
>>> adrift, and must be towed back to Texas, but has drifted so far NE
>>> that it must be towed instead to Mobile Alabama  This will take two
>>> more days.
>>>
>>> As the ship  gets within range of the Alabama coast, helicopters with
>>> TV news camera crews appear above you. Ten or more groups of people
>>> write messages requesting help or expressing distress on their bed
>>> sheets and stretch them as awnings where the helicopter photographers
>>> can and do photograph them.
>>>
>>> Do you do the same thing?
>>>
>>> Why or why not?

Ah I wish the group were as big as it used to be.

No one has ventured an answer, other thatn Georgies's "No, why would
i".

I was looking for a direct reason to do so or not do so. And the
answer is that passengers can't write on the sheets, because the
sheets do not belong to the passengers. They bought permission to
sleep on them, but not to damage them beyond normal wear and tear from
sleeping on them.

It's interesting that both of those who replied to my post asked how
the question was on topic. Were it not for past experience here, I
would think the relevance was obvious. How do you folks make
decisions in your life without asking, What does Judaism say about
this?

If stuck on that cruise ship and watching others write messages on
teh sheets to display to the helicopiter, would your only question be,
Do I want to do that? or would it also be "May I do that?".

Meir

[Yisroel Markov]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:37:22 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
said:

[snip]

> If stuck on that cruise ship and watching others write messages on
>teh sheets to display to the helicopiter, would your only question be,
>Do I want to do that? or would it also be "May I do that?".

IMHO the question is about as relevant to Judaism as "may I spray
graffiti on my neighbor's house?" Might as well ask: "Does the Tora
want me to buy a Samsung or a Pantech phone?"
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[mm]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:10:21 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:37:22 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>said:
>
>[snip]
>
>> If stuck on that cruise ship and watching others write messages on
>>teh sheets to display to the helicopiter, would your only question be,
>>Do I want to do that? or would it also be "May I do that?".
>
>IMHO the question is about as relevant to Judaism as "may I spray
>graffiti on my neighbor's house?"

That's true. They're both relevant. How can you think otherwise?
The sheet-writing is clearly much more likely, and therefore, graffiti
writing seems like a red herring.

You would think people wouldn't need contemporaneous guidance from
their religion when the opportunity to write on others' sheets arose,
but clearly they do. Of the people who had already written on their
sheets probably none of them would have sprayed graffiti on their
neighbor's home. But a sheet is less expensive than a house, And
people see others' doing unpermitted things and see that as permission
for themselves to do the same things.

> Might as well ask: "Does the Tora
>want me to buy a Samsung or a Pantech phone?"

No, not at all.

AFAIK there's no difference between those brands, in fact there's
nothing about any phone or cell phone that would make one preferable
for a Jew.

But are you really comparing the two questions? Which cell phone
versus whether to damage someone else's property. You don't think
Judaism prohibits damaging someone else's property? (Or are you
making some distinction between Judaism and "the Tora"?)

--

Meir

[topazgalaxy]

> a news story in the US.  http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/14/sos-messages-on-bed-sheets...

> seems to supporrt this notion
> "Passengers speaking by phone to news stations and to family have
> described the squalid conditions, which include raw sewage, waiting
> hours in line for food and sleeping on deck."
>
> I think sheets continued to be used AFTER thes phone converstaions.
>
> The url above has pictures of some sheets or towels but what I saw on
> TV were much bigger.
>
> So would you have written messages on your bedsheets and displayed
> them to the cameras like others were doing???
>
>
>
> >And how is this on topic?
>
> I was hoping you and Geogies would figure that out.
>
> --
>
> Meir

thank G-d I was not on that cruise ship but I do feel for the
passengers.
Would I have written something on a bed sheet and shown it to the
helicopters? It depends on many factors such as would I have had the
energy at that point to do it,
and how long had I endured the conditions, did I think that the staff
on the ship were really doing their very best to help me, and did I
believe that performing such an act as writing on the bed sheets
would allieviate the situation more quickly for my self and other
passengers especially those who were sickly and frail.

From the news stories, they were running out of real food and some
people were getting sick. One could argue it was like being stranded
on an island while the world watched, like one of those silly reality
TV shows. (?Survivor) except the people did not volunteer to be in
that situation and there was no grand prize for the last survivor at
the end.

I believe if I really felt that people's lives and welfare were in
danger and the staff on the ship were failing to relieve that danger
after a reasonable period of time and making phone calls did not
relieve the danger than yes, if I had the energy I would have made
such a sheet and advertised to the world that people were really sick
and in danger in the hope that illness would have been prevented and
lives would be saved.

[Evertjan.]

mm wrote on 12 mrt 2013 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:

>> Might as well ask: "Does the Tora
>>want me to buy a Samsung or a Pantech phone?"
>
> No, not at all.

Why should the Thora want something,
do teachings have a will of their own?

> AFAIK there's no difference between those brands, in fact there's
> nothing about any phone or cell phone that would make one preferable
> for a Jew.

Depends on the brand,
and more so on the Jew in question,
preference being a subjective feat.

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

[Yisroel Markov]

On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 05:46:26 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>

said:

>On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:10:21 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:37:22 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
>>said:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> If stuck on that cruise ship and watching others write messages on
>>>teh sheets to display to the helicopiter, would your only question be,
>>>Do I want to do that? or would it also be "May I do that?".
>>
>>IMHO the question is about as relevant to Judaism as "may I spray
>>graffiti on my neighbor's house?"
>
>That's true. They're both relevant. How can you think otherwise?
>The sheet-writing is clearly much more likely, and therefore, graffiti
>writing seems like a red herring.
>
>You would think people wouldn't need contemporaneous guidance from
>their religion when the opportunity to write on others' sheets arose,
>but clearly they do.

People steal, too. Do we therefore need to discuss whether Judaism
condemns snatching cell phones? It's a p'shita.

>Of the people who had already written on their
>sheets probably none of them would have sprayed graffiti on their
>neighbor's home. But a sheet is less expensive than a house, And
>people see others' doing unpermitted things and see that as permission
>for themselves to do the same things.
>
>> Might as well ask: "Does the Tora
>>want me to buy a Samsung or a Pantech phone?"
>
>No, not at all.
>
>AFAIK there's no difference between those brands, in fact there's
>nothing about any phone or cell phone that would make one preferable
>for a Jew.
>
>But are you really comparing the two questions?

Looked at that way, I shouldn't have. The latter is an instance of
non-regulated action. The former is, but it's obvious enough to not
warrant any special attention. *Of course* you can't write on someone
else's sheets. *Of course* you can if it will make a difference to a
life in danger. The only thing these two questions have in common is
that there's nothing to discuss.

>Which cell phone
>versus whether to damage someone else's property. You don't think
>Judaism prohibits damaging someone else's property? (Or are you
>making some distinction between Judaism and "the Tora"?)
--

[mirjam]

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 7:37:22 PM UTC+2, googy wrote:
I did not join the discussion because i was busy om conference matters .
you raised here a statement that the passengers are not allowed to write on the sheets because they paid only for the right to sleep on them , not to wrote on them ....
But they also paid for a safe trip, and not to be stuck on that ship without being able to move. Thus that are in distress and in my opinion these should give them permission to use those sheets for writing on them
mirjam

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

I concur one hundredd percent. And by the time the lawyers are
finished with this cruise company they will have lost a lot more than
the value of a few ruined sheets.

GEK
whishing happy and kosher Pesah to all