New Reform prayer
Harry Weiss
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/20070808transgenderReformJews.html
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
J J Levin
news:f9ff7q$a1s$1...@reader2.panix.com...
You beat me to it, Harry. I just saw it on JTA.
>> NEW YORK (JTA) -- In a groundbreaking move to recognize the experiences
>> of transgender Jews, the Reform movement has published
>> several prayers for sanctifying the sex-change process.
Some parts of the Jewish world will not accept this. But as the article
states, major portions will accept it and feel that it is appropriate. It's
part of the world as it is today. Sex changes are here to stay. While I
myself would not want such surgery, there are a lot of people who want it
and need it and want to remain Jewish (at least in their eyes and the eyes
of their congregations) after sex change surgery.
I would guess that you're not about to invite any transgendered people for
shabbat dinner, huh? :-)
Jay
DoD
news:hpHui.13$Jn...@newsfe12.lga...
While I
> myself would not want such surgery, there are a lot of people who want it
> and need it
Why does someone *need* a sex change?
I know that some peoples emotions and hormones are out of whack, but does
that mean they *need* a sex change?
David
J J Levin
news:QFHui.187$Qr...@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
Based on what I have read, some people feel "wrong" or "incomplete" all
their lives. They don't know what's wrong, but they know something is wrong
with their sexuality. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, so please
don't ask me for detailed explanations, but I've read enough about it to
know that sometimes our physical gender is one thing and our mind says we're
another thing.
People who have changed their gender report that they are much happier, much
more fulfilled, and assuming they find a partner, can lead full and
productive lives. Apparently it works for them.
It remains to be seen how religion will deal with it. I believe that O
Judaism does not deal with it, period. You are the way you are born, and
there is no valid sex change operation. Someone please correct me if I am
wrong.
Reform accepts it as a natural part of our lives. Them are the facts, and we
accept them.
I do not know how the Conservative movement views it.
Jay
Harry Weiss
Why not? I disapprove of it, but if someone already had it, why send them away?
> Jay
DoD
> "DoD" <navy...@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:QFHui.187$Qr...@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
> Based on what I have read, some people feel "wrong" or "incomplete" all
> their lives. They don't know what's wrong, but they know something is
wrong
> with their sexuality. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, so please
> don't ask me for detailed explanations, but I've read enough about it to
> know that sometimes our physical gender is one thing and our mind says
we're
> another thing.
That is what I meant by their hormones/emotions being out of whack. But
isn't that a condition that G-d for some reason gave to them?
> People who have changed their gender report that they are much happier,
much
> more fulfilled, and assuming they find a partner, can lead full and
> productive lives. Apparently it works for them.
I have heard something that only part of the people are satisfied with what
they have done. I have read that some people have regrets and I don't recall
the proportion of either.
> It remains to be seen how religion will deal with it. I believe that O
> Judaism does not deal with it, period. You are the way you are born, and
> there is no valid sex change operation. Someone please correct me if I am
> wrong.
>
> Reform accepts it as a natural part of our lives. Them are the facts, and
we
> accept them.
>
> I do not know how the Conservative movement views it.
How does halacha deal with altering what G-d gave you? I do know that bris
is mandated, but that is a covenant and something totally different than say
a female wanting breast implants to boost her self esteem. I think that we
should try to be happy with what our designer gives to us.
I know that some peoples emotions/hormones are out of balance, but can that
not be corrected without altering ones body? Let's look at it another way. I
saw a special once, (probably the creepiest thing I ever saw in my life)
about certain people, and I can't remember what they were called, who
believe that they would look better if they were missing a leg, or an arm or
something. (I swear I am not making this up). Anyways they did a special on
these people and like doctors refused to amputate their limbs so some of
these people calculated how they could get rid of their limbs safely with
ice. I can't remember exactly but I recall that they were all sad once
their limbs were gone and they were properly medicated and some people whose
intentions were to get rid of their limbs, but decided to take medication
instead, ultimately came to the realization that they really didn't want to
lose their hands or legs or whatever.
So is sex changing any different? And again, what is the halahka on this
issue? Is it proper under Jewish law to get a penis implant, a breast
augmentation, or out of some strange vanity cut off your arm?
David
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Aug-2007, "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote:
> there are a lot of people who want it
> and need it and want to remain Jewish (at least in their eyes and the eyes
>
> of their congregations) after sex change surgery.
No one holds that post ops aren't Jewish - that's just stupid.
Susan
Steve Goldfarb
Of course not, but certainly there are issues regarding where such a
person would fit into the halachic roles laid out for men and women. Most
of these are probably only relevant to that person him or herself, e.g.,
whether or not that person is violating the prohibition on cross-dressing,
but as we've seen in the brouhaha regarding segregated buses there are
issues which affect others as well. For example, if a man believes that he
is committing a sin if he sits next to a woman, or is in a closed room
with a woman, is sinning if he sits next to a transgendered person, etc.?
What about issues such as praying with a woman in your midst, or shaking a
woman's hand, or listening to a woman sing - do these go away if the woman
has sex-change surgery, or not?
I'm sure there are ways to answer / resolve these issues, but only if
people are willing to actually deal with the questions and not just
dismiss them as icky.
--s
--
Damien Sullivan
>That is what I meant by their hormones/emotions being out of whack. But
>isn't that a condition that G-d for some reason gave to them?
>How does halacha deal with altering what G-d gave you? I do know that bris
>is mandated, but that is a covenant and something totally different than say
>a female wanting breast implants to boost her self esteem. I think that we
>should try to be happy with what our designer gives to us.
Isn't poor eyesight a condition that G-d for some reason gave to people?
Should God-fearing folk not wear glasses, or worse, eye surgery? Should
an epileptic child (I know one) not take drugs to avoid the fits which
God is sending?
>> People who have changed their gender report that they are much
>> happier, much more fulfilled, and assuming they find a partner, can
>> lead full and productive lives. Apparently it works for them.
>ice. I can't remember exactly but I recall that they were all sad once
>their limbs were gone and they were properly medicated and some people whose
>intentions were to get rid of their limbs, but decided to take medication
>instead, ultimately came to the realization that they really didn't want to
>lose their hands or legs or whatever.
But the sex-changed report the opposite: they become happier than they
were before.
-xx- Damien X-)
Eliyahu
> "Harry Weiss" <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f9ff7q$a1s$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> > Has the world gone totally Meshugga?
>
>
> > --
> > Harry J. Weiss
> > hjwe...@panix.com
>
> You beat me to it, Harry. I just saw it on JTA.
>
> >> NEW YORK (JTA) -- In a groundbreaking move to recognize the experiences
> >> of transgender Jews, the Reform movement has published
> >> several prayers for sanctifying the sex-change process.
>
> Some parts of the Jewish world will not accept this. But as the article
> states, major portions will accept it and feel that it is appropriate. It's
> part of the world as it is today. Sex changes are here to stay. While I
> myself would not want such surgery, there are a lot of people who want it
> and need it and want to remain Jewish (at least in their eyes and the eyes
> of their congregations) after sex change surgery.
>
> I would guess that you're not about to invite any transgendered people for
> shabbat dinner, huh? :-)
>
> Jay
The question is, why does anyone need a special prayer for it?
Eliyahu
D.M. Procida
> > Based on what I have read, some people feel "wrong" or "incomplete" all
> > their lives. They don't know what's wrong, but they know something is
> wrong
> > with their sexuality. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, so please
> > don't ask me for detailed explanations, but I've read enough about it to
> > know that sometimes our physical gender is one thing and our mind says
> we're
> > another thing.
>
> That is what I meant by their hormones/emotions being out of whack. But
> isn't that a condition that G-d for some reason gave to them?
Oh, a bit like cancer, dementia or schizophrenia perhaps then. Just a
few things out of whack, a condition given to them for some reason.
Daniele
fla...@verizon.net
On 9-Aug-2007, Eliyahu <lro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The question is, why does anyone need a special prayer for it?
Aren't there already prayers for coming through a dangerous operation?
Susan
Dan Kimmel
"DoD" <navy...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:QFHui.187$Qr...@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
So far as any of us know, there are no transgender people in this newsgroup,
and most -- perhaps all -- of us have never met such a person. Rather than
speculate what he/she might think, why not ask:
http://www.jewishmosaic.org/resources/show_resource/183
meir b.
> >> NEW YORK (JTA) -- In a groundbreaking move to recognize the experiences
> >> of transgender Jews, the Reform movement has published
> >> several prayers for sanctifying the sex-change process.
How does a prayer sanctify a process? We thank G-d for
sanctifying us by giving us commandments; we have a blessing
acknowledging sanctity (Kiddush). In Israel, there is a process of
endowing certain portions of crops with sanctity (tithing). But what
does it mean to sanctify the sex-change process? What holiness does
the process obtain as a result of this prayer? And does the Reform
movement also have a prayer for sanctifying, say, an appendectomy?
Meir
meir b.
> "DoD" <navyd...@excite.com> wrote in message
>
> news:QFHui.187$Qr...@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "J J Levin" <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:hpHui.13$Jn...@newsfe12.lga...
> >> "Harry Weiss" <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >>news:f9ff7q$a1s$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> > While I
> >> myself would not want such surgery, there are a lot of people who want it
> >> and need it
>
> > Why does someone *need* a sex change?
>
> > I know that some peoples emotions and hormones are out of whack, but does
> > that mean they *need* a sex change?
>
> > David
>
> Based on what I have read, some people feel "wrong" or "incomplete" all
> their lives. They don't know what's wrong, but they know something is wrong
> with their sexuality. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, so please
> don't ask me for detailed explanations, but I've read enough about it to
> know that sometimes our physical gender is one thing and our mind says we're
> another thing.
>
> People who have changed their gender report that they are much happier, much
> more fulfilled, and assuming they find a partner, can lead full and
> productive lives. Apparently it works for them.
>
> It remains to be seen how religion will deal with it. I believe that O
> Judaism does not deal with it, period. You are the way you are born, and
> there is no valid sex change operation. Someone please correct me if I am
> wrong.
Not quite. First, the operation itself is prohibited by Torah
law, since one is prohibited from sterilizing -- not only humans, but
animals as well. Spaying and neutering are violations of explicit
Torah law. (A Jew may not perform them, even on a non-Jew's animal,
and may not have them performed on his animal, even by a non-Jew.)
As for the status of one who has undergone the operation, most
authorities consider it to have effected no change on the gender of
the individual, just on his external appearance.
There is, however, one dissenting opinion. The Tzitz Eliezer
(Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg, who published twenty-two volumes of
responsa under that name, and was, until his recent death, one of
Israel's best-known halachic decisors) was of the opinion that if a
man had a sex-change operation, his wife would be free to marry
without a get, since no man was now her husband.
Meir
Don Levey
Aren't there also prayers that say (roughly) thank you Gd for making
me a man?
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
Micha Berger
> I would guess that you're not about to invite any transgendered people for
> shabbat dinner, huh? :-)
Jay,
Isn't this condemning the person rather than the practice?
There is a regular on this usenet group who posted here that they were
transgendered (if I'm getting the lingo right). I would enjoy a Shabbos
meal with them and their family.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Micha Berger
> So far as any of us know, there are no transgender people in this newsgroup,
> and most -- perhaps all -- of us have never met such a person. Rather than
> speculate what he/she might think, why not ask:
You are mistaken. One of our regulars posted they were transgendered.
I am not going to post more identifying information. If they want to
remind people / let newbies know, it is their choice.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
J J Levin
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:f9hkg1$l2k$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>J J Levin <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> I would guess that you're not about to invite any transgendered people
>> for
>> shabbat dinner, huh? :-)
>
> Jay,
>
> Isn't this condemning the person rather than the practice?
Note the smiley after my question. It was said in jest, because Harry
thought the world was going meshuggeh.
>
> There is a regular on this usenet group who posted here that they were
> transgendered (if I'm getting the lingo right). I would enjoy a Shabbos
> meal with them and their family.
I'm sure you would. So would I.
Jay
J J Levin
news:1186740766.5...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
As I said, O judaism doesn't deal with it. According to you (above) a sex
change operation changes nothing. It is basically ignored (with the
exception of the Tzitz Eliezer psak you quoted below.
Jay
James Kahn
>"meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1186740766.5...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 9, 7:18 pm, "J J Levin" <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> It remains to be seen how religion will deal with it. I believe that O
>>> Judaism does not deal with it, period. You are the way you are born, and
>>> there is no valid sex change operation. Someone please correct me if I am
>>> wrong.
>>
>> Not quite. First, the operation itself is prohibited by Torah
>> law, since one is prohibited from sterilizing -- not only humans, but
>> animals as well. Spaying and neutering are violations of explicit
>> Torah law. (A Jew may not perform them, even on a non-Jew's animal,
>> and may not have them performed on his animal, even by a non-Jew.)
>>
>> As for the status of one who has undergone the operation, most
>> authorities consider it to have effected no change on the gender of
>> the individual, just on his external appearance.
>>
>As I said, O judaism doesn't deal with it. According to you (above) a sex
>change operation changes nothing. It is basically ignored (with the
>exception of the Tzitz Eliezer psak you quoted below.
Correction, O Judaism does deal with it. Just not in the way
you would prefer.
>> (Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg, who published twenty-two volumes of
>> responsa under that name, and was, until his recent death, one of
>> Israel's best-known halachic decisors) was of the opinion that if a
>> man had a sex-change operation, his wife would be free to marry
>> without a get, since no man was now her husband.
>>
>> Meir
>>
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
J J Levin
news:f9hu69$9md$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> In <zS_ui.13$GQ...@newsfe12.lga> "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net>
> writes:
>
>>"meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1186740766.5...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Aug 9, 7:18 pm, "J J Levin" <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It remains to be seen how religion will deal with it. I believe that O
>>>> Judaism does not deal with it, period. You are the way you are born,
>>>> and
>>>> there is no valid sex change operation. Someone please correct me if I
>>>> am
>>>> wrong.
>>>
>>> Not quite. First, the operation itself is prohibited by Torah
>>> law, since one is prohibited from sterilizing -- not only humans, but
>>> animals as well. Spaying and neutering are violations of explicit
>>> Torah law. (A Jew may not perform them, even on a non-Jew's animal,
>>> and may not have them performed on his animal, even by a non-Jew.)
>>>
>>> As for the status of one who has undergone the operation, most
>>> authorities consider it to have effected no change on the gender of
>>> the individual, just on his external appearance.
>>>
>
>>As I said, O judaism doesn't deal with it. According to you (above) a sex
>>change operation changes nothing. It is basically ignored (with the
>>exception of the Tzitz Eliezer psak you quoted below.
>
> Correction, O Judaism does deal with it. Just not in the way
> you would prefer.
I have no preferences for O Judaism. I am not Orthodox, and I believe that
the Os should deal with it as they wish and are comfortable with it. A lot
of people are not comfortable with the idea of a sex change operation and
consider it "wrong", or not what God intended, etc.
I find it hard to believe, however, that O Judaism would consider it a "no
change" in practice. If an Orthodox man were to change his gender and now
show up as a female, would he still be welcome at his former O minyan? Or in
the men's section of his O congregation?
Jay
James Kahn
I was only responding to your claim that O Judaism "doesn't deal
with it" and "basically ignored" it.
Dan Kimmel
Already received an e-mail to this effect. If I knew it -- I don't read
every post -- I had forgotten it.
And of course it was besides the point, since my purpose was posting the
link to the essay.
Herman Rubin
>http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/20070808transgenderReformJews.html
They are trying much too hard to do what is not necessary.
One does not need an official prayer for everything; the
previous existing set is sufficient.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Herman Rubin
>> David
>Jay
The laws of nature take priority over our interpretations.
As sex changes do not by themselves do harm to others, we
should not let our beliefs in Divine morality cause us to
act against these procedures, or those who undergo them.
Herman Rubin
>> On 9-Aug-2007, Eliyahu <lro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The question is, why does anyone need a special prayer for it?
>> Aren't there already prayers for coming through a dangerous operation?
Yes.
>Aren't there also prayers that say (roughly) thank you Gd for making
>me a man?
The rabbinical prayers for that are rejected by Reform Judaism.
Sheldon Ackerman
news:f9ihta$4q...@odds.stat.purdue.edu:
> In article <m3ps1vl...@dauphin.the-leveys.us>,
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>fla...@verizon.net writes:
>
>>> On 9-Aug-2007, Eliyahu <lro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> > The question is, why does anyone need a special prayer for it?
>
>>> Aren't there already prayers for coming through a dangerous operation?
>
> Yes.
>
>>Aren't there also prayers that say (roughly) thank you Gd for making
>>me a man?
>
> The rabbinical prayers for that are rejected by Reform Judaism.
All prayers except for one or two are rabbinical.
Yisroel Markov
<hjw...@panix.com> said:
>Has the world gone totally Meshugga?
This question is perennial. I think we can safely say that the world
has been "totally meshugga" at least since Plato.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Yisroel Markov
It may be the same thought process that says that saying "asher
yotzar" sanctifies the process of elimination.
Eliyahu
> flav...@verizon.net writes:
> > On 9-Aug-2007, Eliyahu <lro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > The question is, why does anyone need a special prayer for it?
>
> > Aren't there already prayers for coming through a dangerous operation?
>
> Aren't there also prayers that say (roughly) thank you Gd for making
> me a man?
>
Eliyahu
meir b.
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:12:32 +0000 (UTC), "meir b."
> <meir...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>
>
> >> >> NEW YORK (JTA) -- In a groundbreaking move to recognize the experiences
> >> >> of transgender Jews, the Reform movement has published
> >> >> several prayers for sanctifying the sex-change process.
>
> > How does a prayer sanctify a process? We thank G-d for
> >sanctifying us by giving us commandments; we have a blessing
> >acknowledging sanctity (Kiddush). In Israel, there is a process of
> >endowing certain portions of crops with sanctity (tithing). But what
> >does it mean to sanctify the sex-change process? What holiness does
> >the process obtain as a result of this prayer? And does the Reform
> >movement also have a prayer for sanctifying, say, an appendectomy?
>
> It may be the same thought process that says that saying "asher
> yotzar" sanctifies the process of elimination.
Whose thought process would that be? To the orthodox, Asher
Yatzar is a prayer of thanksgiving. To the reform, it is never said.
Who considers it as a sanctification of anything?
Meir
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
> On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:35:57 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
> <hjwe...@panix.com> said:
>
> >Has the world gone totally Meshugga?
>
> This question is perennial. I think we can safely say that the world
> has been "totally meshugga" at least since Plato.
But now that Plato is no longer listed among the planets, perhaps the
world can return to sanity?
Giorgies
just sharing a thought
fla...@verizon.net
On 10-Aug-2007, hru...@stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
> In article <m3ps1vl...@dauphin.the-leveys.us>,
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> >fla...@verizon.net writes:
>
> >> On 9-Aug-2007, Eliyahu <lro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > The question is, why does anyone need a special prayer for it?
>
> >> Aren't there already prayers for coming through a dangerous operation?
>
> Yes.
Yes, I was being rhetorical ---
>
> >Aren't there also prayers that say (roughly) thank you Gd for making
> >me a man?
--- & so was Don
(Call me a mindreader (-: )
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
Mickey Mouse's dog was a planet???
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
Maybe because *s/he* sends a bill...
Susan
Micha Berger
> Why does someone *need* a sex change?
Here's the one case where a sex change might be halachically permissable:
What if someone was so distressed obver the disjoin between their
psychological gender and physical sex that they were suicidal? Given
that a professional convinced a rabbi that the risk was sufficiently
real and not avoidable in any other way...
Gut Voch!
-mi
--
Micha Berger "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org exactly the right measure of himself, and
http://www.aishdas.org holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507 acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
> DoD <navyd...@excite.com> wrote:
> > Why does someone *need* a sex change?
>
> Here's the one case where a sex change might be halachically permissable:
>
> What if someone was so distressed obver the disjoin between their
> psychological gender and physical sex that they were suicidal? Given
> that a professional convinced a rabbi that the risk was sufficiently
> real and not avoidable in any other way...
You surprise me. I did not think you were one to fall into such traps.
Modern PC thought has made anything to do with sex somehow different
from anything else, and given it rules of its own that we would not
apply to any other area in life.
To the xase at hand: why is the penis any different from any other
organ? Suppose some severely disturbed person were to take into his
head the mishagass that something is wrong with his arm, or with his
leg, or with his ears. The self image with which he identifies is as a
onel-legged or one-armed or one-eared person. And what if he were so
distressed over the disjoin between his psychological image and his
anatomic structure that he was suicidal? Given that a professional
convinced a rabbi that the risk was sufficiently real and not
avoidable in any other way... would we permit him to amputate a
perfectly healthy (from an anatomic and physiologic point of view) leg
or arm or ear? I don't think so. Nor would the civil authorities
permit it. Any surgeon who performed this operation would be arrested.
The hospital would lose its accreditation. As for the patient, he
would be fitted with a straight jacket and locked in a padded cell
where he could not comit suicide. And kept there until intense
psychotherapies cure him of his mishegass sufficiently so that he no
longer poses a threat of suicide or self mutillation.
But since in our case the offending organ is a penis rather than an
arm or leg, everything turns upside down. Certainly, let the poor
fellow castrate himself. Remove peins. Remove testicles and other
appurtenances. Carve out a tunnel in the groin to create artificial
vagina. After all it is a cure for his severe mishegass, so why not?
So the Health Department, the Police Department and the State
Prosecutors say go ahead. The rabbi says go ahead. And most grievous
and unexpected of all, Micha Berger agrees.
In summation: Arm no. Leg no. Ear no. Eye certainly not. Penis yes. I
think Rabbi Weiss had it correct in his first posting to open this
discussion. Has the world gone meshugga? It appears the answer is yes.
Giorgies
fretting anxiously for a week or more before making the descision even
to cut my toenails.
Tim Meushaw
No, silly, Mickey Mouse's dog was made of brightly colored clay.
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Eliyahu
wrote:
> On Aug 12, 1:57 am, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
>
> > DoD <navyd...@excite.com> wrote:
> > > Why does someone *need* a sex change?
>
> > Here's the one case where a sex change might be halachically permissable:
>
> > What if someone was so distressed obver the disjoin between their
> > psychological gender and physical sex that they were suicidal? Given
> > that a professional convinced a rabbi that the risk was sufficiently
> > real and not avoidable in any other way...
>
> You surprise me. I did not think you were one to fall into such traps.
> Modern PC thought has made anything to do with sex somehow different
> from anything else, and given it rules of its own that we would not
> apply to any other area in life.
>
> To the xase at hand: why is the penis any different from any other
> organ? Suppose some severely disturbed person were to take into his
> head the mishagass that something is wrong with his arm, or with his
> leg, or with his ears.
It's not about the penis. It's about sexual identity, and who you are
-- something that is not tied into one's arm, leg, or ears. And
Judaism, especially, has quite a few rules dealing with one's sexual
identity, including both requirements and restrictions that depend
upon whether one is male or female. For the most part, non-sexual
organs and limbs don't enter into the equation there. I don't pretend
to know the answers, but I realize that it is,nevertheless, a valid
matter for study and debate.
Eliyahu
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
Yes, I can see such a point of view. And I can see you realising that
it is a matter for study and debate. But I would have thought Micha
Berger to be beyond this study and debate. To be beyond this question.
And to have come up with an answer different from what he proposes.
Sex is treated differently in our society from any other subject. And
not only when it is a matter of identifying oneself as male or famale.
With regard to sin: someone eats pork? that is something he does. He
eats camel meat? That is a sin he comits. He robs or steals? That is a
sin he comits. He wears shatnes? That is a sin he comits. He comits
adultery or incest? That is a sin he comits. But if he buggers another
man (or commissions another man to bugger him), why that is not a sin
he comits, that's who he is. Balderdash I say!
A twelve year old girl visits a dermatologist to have a wart removed?
He is forbidden to perform this most minor of surgical procedures
without permission from a parent or guardian. But if she is pregnant
and visits an abortionist? Go right ahead with an invasive abortion
procedure, no parental permission required. And this has nothing at
all to do with her perceived identity.
I repeat once more. The world has gone meshugga.
Giorgies
not at all mesugga, my own sanity having been declared officially by a
Federal judge.
J J Levin
news:1186943958.3...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
May I point out that most people who "bugger" others and do not consider it
to be a sin rarely consider the other sins on your list (eating pork or
camel or wearing shatnez) to be sins.
As regards robbing, stealing, or incest, they would likely consider these to
be matters of morality, not "sins" as such.
Jay
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
> "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com> wrote in messagenews:1186943958.3...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
You miss my point. Let us remove the word sin from the discussion. All
the forgoing acts are something someone does. Buggery is who he is.
Balderdash I say once more.
GEG
D.M. Procida
> > As regards robbing, stealing, or incest, they would likely consider these to
> > be matters of morality, not "sins" as such.
>
> You miss my point. Let us remove the word sin from the discussion. All
> the forgoing acts are something someone does. Buggery is who he is.
> Balderdash I say once more.
Heterosexuals often indulge in anal sex, and homosexuals often don't.
Are you really not able to distinguish between sexuality and sexual
activities?
Daniele
Damien Sullivan
>You miss my point. Let us remove the word sin from the discussion. All
>the forgoing acts are something someone does. Buggery is who he is.
>Balderdash I say once more.
The balderdash comes from your apparent lack of understanding.
Buggery is indeed something one does. It is the *desire* for buggery
which marks some people as different, in what they are. A man locked
up with other men can commit "buggery" simply for lack of a better
sex partner (or victim, or receptacle); another man can go through life
never touching another man, let alone committing buggery, while being
the sort of man who is attracted to other men, and not to women,
-xx- Damien X-)
fla...@verizon.net
Oh, the cologne!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194815,00.html
http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/playdoh-cologne-playdoh-fragrance/
Thanks for clearing that up!
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Aug-2007, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <gesh...@saintly.com> wrote:
> On Aug 12, 1:57 am, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
> > DoD <navyd...@excite.com> wrote:
> > > Why does someone *need* a sex change?
> >
> > Here's the one case where a sex change might be halachically
> > permissable:
> >
> > What if someone was so distressed obver the disjoin between their
> > psychological gender and physical sex that they were suicidal? Given
> > that a professional convinced a rabbi that the risk was sufficiently
> > real and not avoidable in any other way...
>
> You surprise me. I did not think you were one to fall into such traps.
> Modern PC thought has made anything to do with sex
The only trap here was the one *you* fell into.
Transgender isn't about "having sex with the same gender."
Almost all the men I know who have become women still
want other women.
They simply feel that they *are* women.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Aug-2007, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <gesh...@saintly.com> wrote:
> With regard to sin: someone eats pork? that is something he does. He
> eats camel meat? That is a sin he comits. He robs or steals? That is a
> sin he comits. He wears shatnes? That is a sin he comits. He comits
> adultery or incest? That is a sin he comits. But if he buggers another
> man (or commissions another man to bugger him), why that is not a sin
> he comits, that's who he is. Balderdash I say!
And again, if you say "Modern PC is all about sex",
then YOU are the one flling into that trp.
Are you saying that being man or a woman is ONLY
all about having sex with the opposite sex?
Susan
Giorgies E. Geshahnna
Oyh veyh! I cannot believe that each and every one here has completely
missed my point. Everything I discussed were merely examples to
support my rejection of Micha Berger's thesis. Since all have failed
to understand what I am saying, I imagine the fualt is mine for not
expresing it clearly enough.
Forget all the examples. Let us focus on the Berger hypothesis. A man
has a severe psychological gender identity crisis. So severe that it
cannot be relieved save by extensive invasive surgery and hormonal
treatments that will change him anatomically into a woman. And so
severe that if not relieved will almost certainly lead to suicide.
Society, in the persons of the medical community, the police, and the
prosecutors permit the surgery even when the psychological crisis is
far less severe. And Berger hypothesises that halachic authority will
agree when it is so severe that the alternative is suicide.
But I submit that in no other case will anyone permit medically
unnecessary surgeries and amputations because of some physhological
identity crisis. And if the crisis is so severe that the alternative
is suicide, they will lock the unfortunate patient up to prevent the
suicide. They will never permit a medically unnecessary amputation to
prevent suicide. But if the crisis is one of sexual identity, and the
offending organs are the genitals, everything is now different.
It is because these days society perceives that a mishegass involving
gender identity is different from any other mishegass, and the penis
is different from any other organ, that I say the world has gone
totally meshugga. But the world is meshugga anyway, and as MR Markov
informs us, it has been so since Plato. I suppose I will have to live
with that. But now to discover that Micha Berger carries the meshugga
into the realm of halakha, and says that halakha has also gone
meshugga, that is too much to bear. Balderdash I say.
Giorgies
finally persuaded to cut tonails despite serious aversion to even the
most minor of surgical procedures.
Tim Meushaw
It's far, far too early in the morning to read such a horrifying news
article....
KarenElizabeth
people. One report focused on very young children. In some cases,
kids as young as preschoolers were able to articulate that their
physical gender characteristics did not correspond to whom these
children believed that they were. Can you imagine a 4 year-old
explaining to her parents that, physical characteristics
notwithstanding, she is NOT a boy. She wants to dress and act as a
girl; she believes that she IS a girl. At that age, its clearly not
sexual.
In all honesty, I can't understand this. Poor analogy, but here goes
anyway, Sometimes, I'll take my son for sneakers, and he'll tell me
that a pair he's trying on hurt or are too small. The salesperson
will assure me that they fit perfectly. Still, they're my kid's feet,
not mine. If he says they hurt, then I guess they do. What
transgendered people feel is beyond my imagination. Still, what right
do *I* have to question what they feel?
I doubt that there are people out there who have a deep, inborn
psychological need to wear linen and wool at the same time, people who
feel that a core part of themselves require this combination in order
to be true to their inner selves. Rather, people who wear shatnez
like that suit, and can get it at a good price. Still, if they can't
get that suit, they'll buy another one at the next store. That's so
different from what transgendered people feel as to be a nonsequitur.
And once you cross over into the line of hurting others (theft, for
example), you're talking a whole different game.
Now, I've no idea how the O (or C or R, for that matter) decisors deal
with the inevitable issues raised by gender reassignment surgery.
However they deal with overall issues, I would certainly hope --
assume -- that they would deal with any particular individual with
courtesy and compassion, as well as with a recognition that this is
only the smallest part of who that person is. As a US actor who came
out of the closet about a year ago said, *While [he] prefer[red] to
keep [his] personal life private, [he]hope[d] the fact that [he is]
gay isn't the most interesting part of [him]." Or to put it another
way, if a transgendered person came to an O shiva minyan, you might
question whether he would halachically be considered part of the
minyan, but you'd never question his friendship or wonder whether he
was doing a mitavah.
Karen Elizabeth
Damien Sullivan
>But I submit that in no other case will anyone permit medically
>unnecessary surgeries and amputations because of some physhological
>identity crisis. And if the crisis is so severe that the alternative
>is suicide, they will lock the unfortunate patient up to prevent the
>suicide. They will never permit a medically unnecessary amputation to
>prevent suicide. But if the crisis is one of sexual identity, and the
>offending organs are the genitals, everything is now different.
>
>It is because these days society perceives that a mishegass involving
>gender identity is different from any other mishegass, and the penis
>is different from any other organ, that I say the world has gone
No, it's because your hypothetical examples don't actually happen. And
if they did, they'd be rare, and involve disturbed people.
But if there were a consistent pattern of people wanting to chop off
their left arm, and they seemed otherwise functional, and had an
articulate case as to why they wanted to remove their arm, and those who
managed to remove it on their own seemed to be happier and to stay
happier, then we might well treat that like we treat sex changes.
But it doesn't happen, and the sex changes do.
Also, sex changes aren't simple amputation. For M to F, the testicles
are removed, but the skin of the penis and foreskin is inverted, so
nerve endings are preserved.
And society does allow cosmetic surgery, which involve removing
substantial masses of breast tissue, or the rather exotic changes
undergone by Michael Jackson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_male-to-female
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_female-to-male
Is cosmetic surgery halachically problematic?
-xx- Damien X-)
Harry Weiss
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_male-to-female
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_female-to-male
In many cases yes, but one does not make a bracha for cosmetic surgery.
But people who rarely make a bracha on learning Torah or after meals
which is Biblically mandated come up with a brach on mutilation of
oneself
> -xx- Damien X-)
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Steve Goldfarb
>But if there were a consistent pattern of people wanting to chop off
>their left arm, and they seemed otherwise functional, and had an
>articulate case as to why they wanted to remove their arm, and those who
>managed to remove it on their own seemed to be happier and to stay
>happier, then we might well treat that like we treat sex changes.
>But it doesn't happen, and the sex changes do.
It does, actually -- there are people with a condition in which they feel
the need to amputate limbs. I have no idea how prevalent it is, but it
actually happens. Also no idea if it's related or not.
--s
--
J J Levin
news:f9s87s$s3f$3...@reader1.panix.com...
Women with breast cancer in one breast (my wife is a survivor) sometimes
have the unaffected breast amputated in order to forestall the possibility
of it being affected by cancer later on. I have known cases of women who
did not have breast cancer, but who had both breasts removed because breast
cancer was prevalent in other members of their family.
Jay
Don Levey
> Damien Sullivan <pho...@ofb.net> wrote:
> > Is cosmetic surgery halachically problematic?
>
> In many cases yes, but one does not make a bracha for cosmetic surgery.
> But people who rarely make a bracha on learning Torah or after meals
> which is Biblically mandated come up with a brach on mutilation of
> oneself
>
Perhaps the desire to say that bracha will engender (pardon the
expression) the desire to say more.
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
Micha Berger
> onel-legged or one-armed or one-eared person. And what if he were so
> distressed over the disjoin between his psychological image and his
> anatomic structure that he was suicidal? Given that a professional
> convinced a rabbi that the risk was sufficiently real and not
> avoidable in any other way... would we permit him to amputate a
> perfectly healthy (from an anatomic and physiologic point of view) leg
??? You would prefer the person kill themselves?
The civil law perspective is not relevent, I agree that has more to do
with what society has come to accept and expect.
But halachically, if there is a real threat of suicide, and you can't
eliminate that threat without amputating that arm or ear, why wouldn't
you choose to sacrifice the limb to save the patient?
The difference is that in the case of someone who is convinced they are
really supposed to be one-armed, they can put them in a straightjacket.
Since one can't implement the equivalent here (because of that
aforementioned societal difference) you have more cases where that
threat will be real and unavoidable.
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Rabindranath Tagore
Micha Berger
castration is not murder, idolatry or one of the listed sexual relations,
nor is the case one of an attempt to stamp out Judaism, one need not
die to comply to this law.
It is possible that a rabbi would be forced to invoke this concept.
Psychological issues related to sex and gender identity are pretty core
and severe.
But I did not say anything remotely like this being a common or usual
circumstance. I in fact phrased it as "the one case where a sex change
might be halachically permissable".
Yisroel Markov
<mei...@hotmail.com> said:
>On Aug 10, 11:53 pm, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:12:32 +0000 (UTC), "meir b."
>> <meir...@hotmail.com> said:
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> NEW YORK (JTA) -- In a groundbreaking move to recognize the experiences
>> >> >> of transgender Jews, the Reform movement has published
>> >> >> several prayers for sanctifying the sex-change process.
>>
>> > How does a prayer sanctify a process? We thank G-d for
>> >sanctifying us by giving us commandments; we have a blessing
>> >acknowledging sanctity (Kiddush). In Israel, there is a process of
>> >endowing certain portions of crops with sanctity (tithing). But what
>> >does it mean to sanctify the sex-change process? What holiness does
>> >the process obtain as a result of this prayer? And does the Reform
>> >movement also have a prayer for sanctifying, say, an appendectomy?
>>
>> It may be the same thought process that says that saying "asher
>> yotzar" sanctifies the process of elimination.
>
> Whose thought process would that be? To the orthodox, Asher
>Yatzar is a prayer of thanksgiving. To the reform, it is never said.
>Who considers it as a sanctification of anything?
I have heard this a few times from laymen, never rabbis. Online, I
could only find such a reference in "Mudhouse Sabbath," a book by a
Jewish convert to Christianity. Telling.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
fla...@verizon.net
On 14-Aug-2007, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> Perhaps the desire to say that bracha will engender (pardon the
> expression) the desire to say more.
AAARRRGGGHH!
(good one - and a good thing I wasn't drinking my tea at the time....)
Susan
Don Levey
Sorry; I was hoping that the rest of the statement would overshadow the
embedded pun.
fla...@verizon.net
On 15-Aug-2007, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net writes:
>
> > On 14-Aug-2007, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps the desire to say that bracha will engender (pardon the
> > > expression) the desire to say more.
> >
> > AAARRRGGGHH!
> > (good one - and a good thing I wasn't drinking my tea at the time....)
> >
> Sorry; I was hoping that the rest of the statement would overshadow the
> embedded pun.
Oh, that's right - castigate me for paying attention! :-P
Susan
Don Levey
mm
http://www.torahtots.com/birchtam/asheryatzar.htm
http://home.aol.com/lazera/asheryatzar.htm
http://www.torahzone.com/AsherYatzar.htm
I think it is hard to appreciate this when one is under 40, or 50, and
everything always works, but when one, or even one's friends, start
having little troubles, it becomes so clear.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> "meir b." said:
>>> Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>> "meir b." <meir...@hotmail.com> said:
snip
>>>> It may be the same thought process that says that saying "asher
>>>> yotzar" sanctifies the process of elimination.
>>>
>>> Whose thought process would that be? To the orthodox, Asher
>>>Yatzar is a prayer of thanksgiving. To the reform, it is never said.
>>>Who considers it as a sanctification of anything?
>>
>>I have heard this a few times from laymen, never rabbis. Online, I
>>could only find such a reference in "Mudhouse Sabbath," a book by a
>>Jewish convert to Christianity. Telling.
>
> http://www.torahtots.com/birchtam/asheryatzar.htm
> http://home.aol.com/lazera/asheryatzar.htm
> http://www.torahzone.com/AsherYatzar.htm
>
> I think it is hard to appreciate this when one is under 40, or 50,
> and everything always works, but when one, or even one's friends,
> start having little troubles, it becomes so clear.
After my heart attack, L"A, that prayer has become much more
meaningful.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Fiona Abrahami
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote
> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>> "meir b." said:
>>>> Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>>> "meir b." <meir...@hotmail.com> said:
>
> snip
>
>>>>> It may be the same thought process that says that saying "asher
>>>>> yotzar" sanctifies the process of elimination.
>>>>
>>>> Whose thought process would that be? To the orthodox, Asher
>>>>Yatzar is a prayer of thanksgiving. To the reform, it is never said.
>>>>Who considers it as a sanctification of anything?
>>>
>>>I have heard this a few times from laymen, never rabbis. Online, I
>>>could only find such a reference in "Mudhouse Sabbath," a book by a
>>>Jewish convert to Christianity. Telling.
>>
>> http://www.torahtots.com/birchtam/asheryatzar.htm
>> http://home.aol.com/lazera/asheryatzar.htm
>> http://www.torahzone.com/AsherYatzar.htm
>>
>> I think it is hard to appreciate this when one is under 40, or 50,
>> and everything always works, but when one, or even one's friends,
>> start having little troubles, it becomes so clear.
>
> After my heart attack, L"A, that prayer has become much more
> meaningful.
It became very meaningful to me after I was hospitalised with ulcerative
colitis back in the mid-90s.
Fiona
mm
He was saying that other people can't, and that's what he called
balderdash.
P&M perhaps because it is so old
>Daniele
Micha Berger
> It became very meaningful to me after I was hospitalised with ulcerative
> colitis back in the mid-90s.
In all the places in NY that one can find Jews praying, the most heartfelt
in the city are probably said at the area right by the restrooms just by
the elevator lobby, bank A, 2nd fl., at The Sloane Kettering Memorical
Cancer Center which is right as one enters or leaves Pediatrics.
(And, unfortunately, it seems to be in frequent use as a house of
prayer. Depression is being in the lobby and someone needs a minyan for
Maariv for a yahrzeit, and you realize they can find 10 for a pick-up
minyan in a couple of minutes -- less time than would most synagogues
in the heart of Brooklyn.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507 "mensch"! -Rabbi Israel Salanter
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Fiona Abrahami <fiona@no_spam.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> It became very meaningful to me after I was hospitalised with ulcerative
>> colitis back in the mid-90s.
>
> In all the places in NY that one can find Jews praying, the most heartfelt
> in the city are probably said at the area right by the restrooms just by
> the elevator lobby, bank A, 2nd fl., at The Sloane Kettering Memorical
> Cancer Center which is right as one enters or leaves Pediatrics.
>
> (And, unfortunately, it seems to be in frequent use as a house of
> prayer. Depression is being in the lobby and someone needs a minyan for
> Maariv for a yahrzeit, and you realize they can find 10 for a pick-up
> minyan in a couple of minutes -- less time than would most synagogues
> in the heart of Brooklyn.)
And the obvious question is "why do we wait?". <Sigh>
And a corollary could be that many of these calamaties strike _in
order_ to get us to think, pray, improve ouselves etc.
I still recall Georgies' comment after my heart attack. WTTE that now
you can rebuild your heart to be more pure.
Micha Berger
: mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
:> Fiona Abrahami <fiona@no_spam.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>> It became very meaningful to me after I was hospitalised with
:>> ulcerative colitis back in the mid-90s.
:> In all the places in NY that one can find Jews praying, the most
:> heartfelt
:> in the city are probably said at the area right by the restrooms
:> just by
:> the elevator lobby, bank A, 2nd fl., at The Sloane Kettering
:> Memorial
:> Cancer Center which is right as one enters or leaves Pediatrics.
...
: And the obvious question is "why do we wait?". <Sigh>
:
: And a corollary could be that many of these calamaties strike _in
: order_ to get us to think, pray, improve ourselves etc.
Along similar lines... I wrote here once (more than once, knowing me)
about the qiddush we made. My daughter fell off a cliff onto a dry
riverbed. 3 months later, bH she already had a clean bill of health.
So, we wanted to make a qiddush to thank Hashem and celebrate. By the
time the Rabbi announced it, though, I came up with the idea of it
being to thank G-d for all the things that could go wrong every day --
just think of the risks of crossing the street! -- and don't.
Yes, thank G-d she wasn't far worse off. But thank G-d for all the
kids (including mine and nieces and nephews who were with her) who
went hiking that day and didn't fall off a cliff!
Among the most incredible things are all those things that work out
right so often that we consider them matter of course. That Hashem
guarantees them so often is MORE reason to thank Him, and yet makes it
harder to remember to do so.
SheTir'u baTov!
-micha
--
Micha Berger One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507 parts to offer. - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv
Tim Meushaw
> On Tue, October 23, 2007 4:27 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>: mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>:> Fiona Abrahami <fiona@no_spam.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>:>> It became very meaningful to me after I was hospitalised with
>:>> ulcerative colitis back in the mid-90s.
>
>:> In all the places in NY that one can find Jews praying, the most
>:> heartfelt
>:> in the city are probably said at the area right by the restrooms
>:> just by
>:> the elevator lobby, bank A, 2nd fl., at The Sloane Kettering
>:> Memorial
>:> Cancer Center which is right as one enters or leaves Pediatrics.
> ...
>: And the obvious question is "why do we wait?". <Sigh>
>:
>: And a corollary could be that many of these calamaties strike _in
>: order_ to get us to think, pray, improve ourselves etc.
>
> Along similar lines... I wrote here once (more than once, knowing me)
> about the qiddush we made. My daughter fell off a cliff onto a dry
> riverbed. 3 months later, bH she already had a clean bill of health.
> So, we wanted to make a qiddush to thank Hashem and celebrate. By the
> time the Rabbi announced it, though, I came up with the idea of it
> being to thank G-d for all the things that could go wrong every day --
> just think of the risks of crossing the street! -- and don't.
Several months ago, a family in our shul sponsored a kiddush, in honor
of "Everyday miracles." I never asked them what they were referring
to, but knowing the family, it wouldn't surprise me if it was
something along the lines of what you were saying.
> Yes, thank G-d she wasn't far worse off. But thank G-d for all the
> kids (including mine and nieces and nephews who were with her) who
> went hiking that day and didn't fall off a cliff!
>
> Among the most incredible things are all those things that work out
> right so often that we consider them matter of course. That Hashem
> guarantees them so often is MORE reason to thank Him, and yet makes it
> harder to remember to do so.
True, how many people drive to work and thank G-d for all the
accidents they didn't get into? Sometimes, if I'm running late, or if
I get stuck at one too many traffic lights, I like to think that it's
Hashem keeping me held up at an earlier point in my commute because,
if I'd been further along, I could have been in an accident and He was
trying to protect me from that.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
If I may take an example from a different religion.
A church in England wanted to raise money. They offered, for a donation,
to dedicate a window in the chapel to fallen soldier. One man turned
to his wife and said he wanted to donate a window. "But our son came
home" she said. "That's why I want to dedicate a window".
Eliyahu
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> On 11-Aug-2007, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 10, 4:53 pm, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:35:57 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
>> > <hjwe...@panix.com> said:
>> > >>Has the world gone totally Meshugga?
>> >> This question is perennial. I think we can safely say that the world
>> >> has been "totally meshugga" at least since Plato.
>> >But now that Plato is no longer listed among the planets, perhaps the
>> >world can return to sanity?
> >Mickey Mouse's dog was a planet???
>No, silly, Mickey Mouse's dog was made of brightly colored clay.
Bringing to mind the question that was on the minds of many of us who
watched Disney cartoons: How come Goofy could talk and wore clothes
while Pluto couldn't speak and was naked? :-)
(To add a little Jewish connection, I've been amused by the various
Chanukkah Menorahs in catalogs over the past few years which were made
with various Disney characters. Heck, I'd never even imagined that
Mickey and Donald were Jewish...)
Eliyahu
fla...@verizon.net
On 24-Oct-2007, Eliyahu <lro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >But now that Plato is no longer listed among the planets, perhaps the
> >> >world can return to sanity?
>
> > >Mickey Mouse's dog was a planet???
>
> >No, silly, Mickey Mouse's dog was made of brightly colored clay.
>
> Bringing to mind the question that was on the minds of many of us who
> watched Disney cartoons: How come Goofy could talk and wore clothes
> while Pluto couldn't speak and was naked? :-)
>
> (To add a little Jewish connection, I've been amused by the various
> Chanukkah Menorahs in catalogs over the past few years which were made
> with various Disney characters. Heck, I'd never even imagined that
> Mickey and Donald were Jewish...)
Not to mention Pooh & Piglet!!
Susan
Darrin
Who needs Mickey & Donald when we have plenty of legendary Jewish
cartoonists, creators & characters to choose from:
Al Capp (Lil' Abner)
Max Fleisher (Popeye, Ko-Ko The Clown, Betty Boop)
Rube Goldberg (Ike & Mike)
Bob Kane (b. Kahn, NYC, Batman)
Stan Lee (b. Lieber, NYC, Spiderman)
Joe Shuster (b. Schuster) & Jerry Siegel (Superman).
It should come as no surprise that three of the greatest Superheroes
were Jewish! eh More so with Superman, since he was born on the eve of
WW II, and his real last name is "El," which means God in Hebrew.
Personally, I have always been partial to the Warner Bros. (Jack
Warner was a sweet) cartoon characters, which leaves Disney in the
dust. Far superior on every level. And where would Bugsy Bunny, Porky
Pig, Tweety Bird, Yosemite Sam, and Daffy Duck be without sweet,
Jewish Mel Blanc, b. Melvin Jerome Blank? Aka, "The man of a thousand
voices." -D, NYC "Most famous theatrical caricaturist in history, a
line king of the first order. His brilliant and respectful works, with
their hidden Ninas (he frequently puts the name of his daughter within
his drawings), have been part of the New York Times Arts & Leisure
section for years. A gold medal recipient of the National Society of
Arts and Letters, his work is also represented at the Metropolitan
Museum of Art in New York, The Whitney Museum of Modern Art, The
Brooklyn Museum, and other top artistic venues" - AL HIRSCHFELD
(raised in NYC), excerpt from The Jewish Book of Lists By Joel
Samberg
Tim Meushaw
> On 2007-08-12, flav...@verizon.net <flav...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> - Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
>
>> On 11-Aug-2007, "Giorgies E. Geshahnna" <geshah...@saintly.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Aug 10, 4:53 pm, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>> > On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:35:57 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
>>> > <hjwe...@panix.com> said:
>
>>> > >>Has the world gone totally Meshugga?
>
>>> >> This question is perennial. I think we can safely say that the world
>>> >> has been "totally meshugga" at least since Plato.
>
>>> >But now that Plato is no longer listed among the planets, perhaps the
>>> >world can return to sanity?
>
>> >Mickey Mouse's dog was a planet???
>
>>No, silly, Mickey Mouse's dog was made of brightly colored clay.
>
> Bringing to mind the question that was on the minds of many of us who
> watched Disney cartoons: How come Goofy could talk and wore clothes
> while Pluto couldn't speak and was naked? :-)
Because while they were both dawgs, they were different varieties.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_077.html
(I don't understand it, I just pass it along)
Tim
> (To add a little Jewish connection, I've been amused by the various
> Chanukkah Menorahs in catalogs over the past few years which were made
> with various Disney characters. Heck, I'd never even imagined that
> Mickey and Donald were Jewish...)
You'd think we'd be able to know if Donald was Jewish or not, what
with his age-long refusal to wear pants in public....
fla...@verizon.net
On 27-Oct-2007, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > (To add a little Jewish connection, I've been amused by the various
> > Chanukkah Menorahs in catalogs over the past few years which were made
> > with various Disney characters. Heck, I'd never even imagined that
> > Mickey and Donald were Jewish...)
>
> You'd think we'd be able to know if Donald was Jewish or not, what
> with his age-long refusal to wear pants in public....
Depends on whether he was born after circ got secularized & popular... :-)
Susan
Tim Meushaw
"According to Disney canon, Donald's full name is Donald Fauntleroy
Duck, probably a reference to his traditional outfit. Donald's
birthday is officially recognized as June 9, 1934[2], the day his
debut film was released, but in The Three Caballeros, his birthday is
given as simply "Friday the 13th". In Donald's Happy Birthday (short)
gives his birthday as 13 March."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Duck
I don't know if it became popular by 1934 or not, I wasn't around
then. :-)