Assur, patur, muttar
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
In article <slrne0h3pd....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> On 2006-03-03, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrne0h1gr....@athens.meushaw.com...
>> >
>>> If it's any consolation, every single time I go to a shiur about
>>> anything more than basic Judaism, I'm confronted with how little I
>>> understand, starting with the basic terminology (took me weeks to
>>> remember which was assur and which was patur).
>> --------
>> Tim? I think you meant which was "assur" and which was "mutar." ;-)
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S. (running and ducking)
>
> AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Actually, you're both right!! Regarding Hilchot Shabbat (only
for laws of shabbat) there are 3 categories: assur (forbidden toraiticaly),
patur (forbidden according to rabbinic law); and mutar (permissible).
Josh
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Timothy A. Meushaw
> meu...@pobox.com
>
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:ducpb2$me$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
You have me very confused. I've never heard patur used this way. I've always
learned that it means exempt. It can mean exempt from doing a mitzvah as in
"osek b'mitzvah patur min hamitzvah." It is the opposite of "chayuv"
(obligated to do a certain mitzvah). This is why we say a dead person is
"niftar" (exempt from doing mitzvos). In the gemara, it can mean that a
person who has committed a certain crime is exempt from being punished by a
human court (but he is subject to divine retribution), and in this usage it
is also the opposite of "chayuv" (subject to punishment by a human court).
So, now I'm wondering if a person who transgresses an issur mi'derabanan
(rabbinic prohibition) is patur (and cannot be prosecuted by a beis din) but
a person who transgresses an issur mi'doraisa (torah prohibition) is chayuv
(and *can* be prosecuted by a beis din)? Is this what you're saying?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:k1qOf.2190$Da7...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Or maybe you're saying that something which is *patur* would be permitted by
the torah but forbidden by the rabbis?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Lisa
Actually, patur means patur aval assur. The term used for something
that is assur is generally chayav.
Lisa
Lisa
Something that is patur is merely patur me-onesh.
Lisa
cindys
"Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
news:1141520694.6...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
snip
>>>In the gemara, it can mean that a
> > > person who has committed a certain crime is exempt from being punished
by
> > a
> > > human court (but he is subject to divine retribution),
snip
> Something that is patur is merely patur me-onesh.
---------------
Which is what I was saying above. So, I don't understand what Josh means by
patur = "forbidden according to rabbinic law," (unless he means that issurei
de'rabbanan are patur me-onesh).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Harry Weiss
That is what Josh said, referring to patur aval assur. As Josh said that
is used primarily in Messechet Shabbos.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:ducpb2$me$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>>
>> In article <slrne0h3pd....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
> <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
>> > On 2006-03-03, cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:slrne0h1gr....@athens.meushaw.com...
>> >> >
>> >>> If it's any consolation, every single time I go to a shiur about
>> >>> anything more than basic Judaism, I'm confronted with how little I
>> >>> understand, starting with the basic terminology (took me weeks to
>> >>> remember which was assur and which was patur).
>> >> --------
>> >> Tim? I think you meant which was "assur" and which was "mutar." ;-)
>> >> Best regards,
>> >> ---Cindy S. (running and ducking)
>> >
>> > AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
>>
>>
>> Actually, you're both right!! Regarding Hilchot Shabbat (only
>> for laws of shabbat) there are 3 categories: assur (forbidden
> toraiticaly),
>> patur (forbidden according to rabbinic law); and mutar (permissible).
>>
> ------------
> You have me very confused. I've never heard patur used this way. I've always
There's always a first time :-)
> learned that it means exempt. It can mean exempt from doing a mitzvah as in
In Hilchot Shabbat only, "pattur" means exempt from biblical punishment
but still rabbinically prohibited. The term is "patur aval assur"
> "osek b'mitzvah patur min hamitzvah." It is the opposite of "chayuv"
> (obligated to do a certain mitzvah). This is why we say a dead person is
> "niftar" (exempt from doing mitzvos). In the gemara, it can mean that a
> person who has committed a certain crime is exempt from being punished by a
> human court (but he is subject to divine retribution), and in this usage it
> is also the opposite of "chayuv" (subject to punishment by a human court).
> So, now I'm wondering if a person who transgresses an issur mi'derabanan
> (rabbinic prohibition) is patur (and cannot be prosecuted by a beis din) but
> a person who transgresses an issur mi'doraisa (torah prohibition) is chayuv
> (and *can* be prosecuted by a beis din)? Is this what you're saying?
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Almost.
Josh
>
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:duecj3$if0$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
snip
>
> In Hilchot Shabbat only, "pattur" means exempt from biblical punishment
> but still rabbinically prohibited. The term is "patur aval assur"
------------
Oooooh...my eyes totally glossed over the *Hilchot Shabbat* part. I guess
that's what I get for reading SCJM late at night.
Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:due54f$jmi$1...@reader2.panix.com...
snip
> > Or maybe you're saying that something which is *patur* would be
permitted by
> > the torah but forbidden by the rabbis?
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> That is what Josh said, referring to patur aval assur. As Josh said that
> is used primarily in Messechet Shabbos.
-----
I totally missed that qualification. Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Boruch Tkatch
>"niftar" (exempt from doing mitzvos).
I thought it was because his soul was released from the obligation of
the body.
Boruch
cindys
"Boruch Tkatch" <Maxwel...@ThePentagon.com> wrote in message
news:1141658160....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Maybe, but I've never heard that before. I've only heard about the exemption
from mitzvos.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Micha Berger
:>This is why we say a dead person is "niftar" (exempt from doing mitzvos).
: I thought it was because his soul was released from the obligation of
: the body.
Assur means bound, patur means released. The legal usage is derived
from that, not the baseline meaning. (As in Joseph's jail, the "beis
haasurim".)
So, my own take is that it's released from the body itself, not
necessarily about its obligations in particular.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Nachman of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507 Likutei Tefilos 94:964
Boruch Tkatch
I guess i wasn't thinking straight yesterday. :)
Boruch
Art Werschulz
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
> Actually, you're both right!! Regarding Hilchot Shabbat (only for
> laws of shabbat) there are 3 categories: assur (forbidden
> toraiticaly), patur (forbidden according to rabbinic law); and mutar
> (permissible).
"Patur" is also found in reference to the laws of Pesach, as found
recently (in the daf-yomi sense) in the last mishnah on Pesachim 48b.
--
Art Werschulz (agw STRUDEL comcast.net)
207 Stoughton Ave Cranford NJ 07016
(908) 272-1146