Satmar and Yemeni Jews
Abe Kohen
the Satmar. For the full story please see:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/15/nyregion/15YEME.html?ex=996163776&ei=1&en=
197200d4795a8eb6
Here are a few excerpts:
In 1994, Yahia and Lauza Jaradi left
Yemen for a stab at life in America. [T]hey were grateful that their
Hasidic sponsors, the ultra-Orthodox Satmars, had promised a
nurturing environment.
In the 1960's, Yemen essentially closed its borders, cutting Jews
off from the outside world. Two decades later, representatives of
the Satmars, an ardently anti-Zionist Hasidic group based in
Williamsburg, Brooklyn, with a major outpost in Kiryas Joel, in
Orange County, were allowed to send representatives to Yemen, where
they encouraged Yemeni Jews to study in New York or London instead
of in Israel.
About 100 Yemeni Jews have settled in New York under the aegis of
the Satmars, said Ephraim Isaac, president of the Yemenite Jewish
Federation of America. Some express tremendous gratitude to the
Satmars. But others criticize Satmar leaders for promoting a rigid,
Yiddish-only orthodoxy and punishing nonconformists.
There wasn't much time to study, either, he said,
because he was required to spend many hours collecting donations for
the Satmars. Mr. Jaradi said he was allowed to keep only a small
part for living expenses.
"The Satmars, they say you have to collect money, collect money,"
Mr. Jaradi said in an interview on Tuesday at a friend's house here.
"It's not easy. But what can you do? You have to listen."
Mr. Jaradi said he soon realized that Yemeni Jews stood out within
the Satmars' insular world. Most have dark olive-toned skin and
speak Arabic and a Yemeni-Hebrew dialect. Their traditional clothing
is colorful, festooned with elaborate embroidery or jewelry. They
favor foods more apt to be found in a Middle Eastern spice bazaar
than in an Eastern European delicatessen.
Once, the Satmars demanded that Mrs. Jaradi shave her head as Satmar
women do, Mr. Jaradi said. She did, but vowed never to do it again.
The Satmars also insisted that the couple's children be educated
according to Satmar custom. "Only Yiddish, only Torah," Mr. Jaradi
said. "No English."
Concerned that their ethnic identity was being erased, he said, the
family began to act more independently. Mr. Jaradi took a job as a
taxi driver, against the wishes of his rabbinical teachers. Mrs.
Jaradi cared for the children, but her husband said they had to fend
off Satmars who offered to buy their children for as much as $20,000
apiece.
------------
Abe
July 14, 2001 10:48 pm EDT
Jonathan J. Baker
>The New York Times has an interesting story about Yemeni Jews living among
>the Satmar. For the full story please see:
>There wasn't much time to study, either, he said,
>because he was required to spend many hours collecting donations for
>the Satmars. Mr. Jaradi said he was allowed to keep only a small
>part for living expenses.
...
>Concerned that their ethnic identity was being erased, he said, the
>family began to act more independently. Mr. Jaradi took a job as a
>taxi driver, against the wishes of his rabbinical teachers. Mrs.
>Jaradi cared for the children, but her husband said they had to fend
>off Satmars who offered to buy their children for as much as $20,000
>apiece.
The anti-zionists take a page from the zionist Jewish Agency in treating
the Teimanim like so much chattel (cattle?) - even to the treating
their children as commodities.
I thought we had done away with slavery in this country in 1863?
--
Jonathan Baker | It's almost time ta muze
jjb...@panix.com | about the Destruction.
Web page <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker>
CreedmoorChronicles
Jaradi family is suspected of child abuse and is looking to blame Satmar for
their tragedy. Satmarers BUYING children? Satmarers having brought the
Yemenis over and then sending them to schnorr? Sounds way out in left field.
Ian (no Satmar sympathizer by any means, but no lover of fictitious news
stories either)
R
>
> This article looks spurious; if you read the article, you will see that the
> Jaradi family is suspected of child abuse and is looking to blame Satmar for
> their tragedy. Satmarers BUYING children? Satmarers having brought the
> Yemenis over and then sending them to schnorr? Sounds way out in left field.
>
> Ian (no Satmar sympathizer by any means, but no lover of fictitious news
> stories either)
I can vouch that there are indeed more that a few Teimanim (or
else they are other dark-skinned peoples dressed up to look like
Teimanim) integrated into the Satmar community in Williamsburg. I
can't say to what extent they are actully integrated (i.e., would
a Hungarian Satmar family let their daughte marry the sone of one
of these Teimani families?), nor can I give an accurate report of
their numbers. But you do see them. As for the other allegations
brought forth here, I have no information at all.
CreedmoorChronicles
US. But for the purposes of schnorring? And offering money for kids?
Incidentally, I think that the Satmarers did help some Iranian Jews escape
the Islamic paradise as well; whether they then joined the Satmar community
is another story; I have no idea, and I never saw any dark skinned Satmarers
on my many shopping trips to "Willy" 10-odd years ago.
Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights? That
is just the way it is socially.
Ian
--
> I can vouch that there are indeed more that a few Teimanim (or
> else they are other dark-skinned peoples dressed up to look like
> Teimanim) integrated into the Satmar community in Williamsburg. I
> can't say to what extent they are actully integrated (i.e., would
> a Hungarian Satmar family let their daughte marry the sone of one
> of these Teimani familiesat all.
Abe Kohen
"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message
news:9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
> Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
> of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights?
That
> is just the way it is socially.
Iranian Lubavitchers? Really? From Tehran or Kurdistan?
Speaking about Iranians, what do you think of Rita. FWIW Rami Klinstein
(Ashkenazi) is married to Rita Farouz (Iranian). Just downloaded one of her
mp3s. Oy vey - kol isha!
Lamut, lamut alecha ...
Abe
July 15, 2001 10:47 pm EDT
Eliyahu
"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message
news:9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
>
>
> of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights?
That
> is just the way it is socially.
>
Lubavitch Aleph Institute made in a taped talk to his congregation. He said
that someone had asked if he had a problem with white Jews dating or
marrying the few black Jews in the area. His comment was roughly, "I have no
problem with Jews marrying fellow Jews of any race or color. What I do have
a problem with is Jews dating or marrying non-Jews." He went on to talk
about the importance of finding a Jewish spouse and of accepting other
Jewish couples who might not meet our preconceptions of what a husband and
wife ought to look like.
--
Eliyahu Rooff
www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm
RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm
N. Samuel R.
news:9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
'R' wrote:
> I can vouch that there are indeed more that a few Teimanim (or
> else they are other dark-skinned peoples dressed up to look like
> Teimanim) integrated into the Satmar community in Williamsburg. I
> can't say to what extent they are actully integrated (i.e., would
> a Hungarian Satmar family let their daughte marry the sone of one
> of these Teimani familiesat all.
> Yes - there is no question that the Satmarers brought some Teimanim to the
> US. But for the purposes of schnorring? And offering money for kids?
> Incidentally, I think that the Satmarers did help some Iranian Jews escape
> the Islamic paradise as well; whether they then joined the Satmar community
> is another story; I have no idea, and I never saw any dark skinned Satmarers
> on my many shopping trips to "Willy" 10-odd years ago.
>
> Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
> of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights? That
> is just the way it is socially.
>
> Ian
Dear Mr. Schier,
I greatly appreciate this and your other posts that have defended Orthodox Jews.
Your Lubavitch background combined with your secular and Zionist ideology and
lifestyle do not exactly paint a picture of one likely to be enamored of Satmar
and yet you have exhibited that most rare quality of objectivity and fairness in
speaking out when they appear to be unfairly maligned. I truly admire you for
this.
Sincerely,
N. Samuel R.
Michael Shimshoni
"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru% writes:
%Yes - there is no question that the Satmarers brought some Teimanim to the
%US. But for the purposes of schnorring? And offering money for kids?
%Incidentally, I think that the Satmarers did help some Iranian Jews escape
%the Islamic paradise as well; whether they then joined the Satmar community
%is another story; I have no idea, and I never saw any dark skinned Satmarers
%on my many shopping trips to "Willy" 10-odd years ago.
%
%Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
%of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights? That
%is just the way it is socially.
In those communities the Rabbis have much influence on the behaviour
of their flock. If those Rabbis do not condemn this racist
behaviour it is their fault. It is not "socially" but rascistically.
Not all O are like that. Among the O cousins (and none O ones)
here is a considerable number of "intermarriages", i.e. marrying out
of the Ashkenazi circle. Haredim are known to be much more
inclined to racism on such matters, bring all kind of "halakha"
reasons for it. To a considerable extend the success of Shas
is the result of Aguda rejecting them.
%Ian
Michael Shimshoni
%--
%> I can vouch that there are indeed more that a few Teimanim (or
%> else they are other dark-skinned peoples dressed up to look like
%> Teimanim) integrated into the Satmar community in Williamsburg. I
%> can't say to what extent they are actully integrated (i.e., would
%> a Hungarian Satmar family let their daughte marry the sone of one
%> of these Teimani familiesat all.
Michael Shimshoni
"Abe Kohen" <abek...@yahoo.com% writes:
%"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message
%news:9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
%> Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
%> of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights?
%That
%> is just the way it is socially.
%
%Iranian Lubavitchers? Really? From Tehran or Kurdistan?
%
%Speaking about Iranians, what do you think of Rita. FWIW Rami Klinstein
%(Ashkenazi) is married to Rita Farouz (Iranian). Just downloaded one of her
%mp3s. Oy vey - kol isha!
%
%Lamut, lamut alecha ...
One lives and learns. I would never have guessed that Rita and Rami
were Lubavitchers!
%Abe
Michael Shimshoni
Dr. Shlomo Argamon
MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
But you should have known that they are `Haredi -- after all, he
shaves his head!
-Shlomo-
Micha Berger
: Your question reminded me of a comment that Rabbi Sholom Lipskar of the
: Lubavitch Aleph Institute made in a taped talk to his congregation. He said
: that someone had asked if he had a problem with white Jews dating or
: marrying the few black Jews in the area. His comment was roughly, "I have no
: problem with Jews marrying fellow Jews of any race or color. What I do have
You reminded me of one "brilliant" comment a neighbor made to my wife
recently.
As I've mentioned here before, our oldest, Rafi, is black. Okay,
technically he's biracial as he's Ashkenazi on his birth-mother's
side, but he looks firmly African American.
One woman asked my wife what she would do if Rafi brought home a black
girl. Jewish, of course, she rapidly added. Would we welcome her? How
would we feel about having black children?
Well, gee, having a black son hasn't bothered us yet, I think we'll be
able to handle it...
BTW, interesting thing to note about this story -- aside from the lady's
lack of forethought... People in the neighborhood see Rafi as Rafi,
not as "that black frum kid". Which is why she instinctively thought
of him marrying a black Jew as being a cross-racial issue. Most of our
neighbors don't see Rafi in terms of race. Race is an issue when dealing
in numbers or stereotypes. Once you get to know the person, it's about
as relevent as pupil color.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Time flies...
mi...@aishdas.org ... but you're the pilot.
http://www.aishdas.org - R' Zelig Pliskin
Fax: (413) 403-9905
R
>
>> Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
> of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights? That
> is just the way it is socially.
There are few unmixed "Russian Lubavitcher" families left in
Crown Heights. Most Lubavitcher families here are American,
Americans of Polish (not Russian) extraction, English, French,
Israeli, Middle-Eastern/North African, and all sorts of mixtures
in between. Some have some original Russian-Lubo blood, most do
not. Marriage between and among these groups happens all the
time. FWIW: I myself have a half-Egyptian son-in-law, and no
complaints about it.
CreedmoorChronicles
taken out of Iran by the late and very lamented Habad activist Yaakov Yehuda
Hecht Z"L; they became involved in Chabad while in the US or Israel. There
is also an Iranian Lubavitch community in Milan, Italy - I think they are
from Meshed.
Ian
--
CreedmoorChronicles
(organization for Iranian and Russian Jews) etc. Also, as a former amateur
photographer, I can say that the Satmar chassidim (B and H, Adorama, 47th St
Photo Z"L) cleaned up the retail photo equipment sector - I would never have
been able to afford decent equipment had they not moved the price gouging
official importers and the sleazy semi black marketers aside with their
combination of astute purchasing and merchandising, along with a well
deserved reputation for honesty.
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
toichen
> a Hungarian Satmar family let their daughte marry the sone of one
> of these Teimani families?)
Yes they would and they do. There is a shortage of available young men
in the Satmar community and thus some Satmar girls end up marrying
Teimani husbands.
toichen
Fiona
Micha Berger wrote in message <9ivalc$ndm$5...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
That's great Micha, and Rafi is truly lucky that he lives in an
understanding community. I know of others in Rafi's position (i.e. Jewish by
birth but non-white) who have not been so lucky. I don't know how old Rafi
is, but once he moves out of the neighborhood he will very likely find
things a bit different. And it's always the little things that hurt the
most, like when visiting strange shuls always being asked who was the Rav
who did his gerut. Or simply being ignored like he wasn't there, or not
being counted in a minyan. I know people in Rafi's position who have given
up on Torah, and the kehilah, because of these things. Some of them become
rabid anti-semites to prove their allegiance to which ever new group the
choose. There are literally tens of thousands of black Jewish by birth
people in the US, Canada, France, and the UK and the vast majority of them
want nothing to do with the Jewish community.
There are of course plenty of non-Jewish movements and organisations that
are just waiting to enlist them. It is to our eternal shame that these
Jewish souls are ignored and their special needs in the community
unrecognised. And it is to the credit of Lubavitch that they are virtually
(not totally by any means) colour blind, and that the word 'black' in their
dictionary has nothing to do with skin colour, but only the colour of a
man's hat.
Just to illustrate the pressure that Jewish Blacks are under from non-Jewish
Blacks, a mixed-race friend of mine who is Lubavitch and now lives in the
UK, was sitting with her husband on a park bench (in Central Park, I think)
and a black guy approached them, drew a gun and told her to make up her mind
whether she was Jewish or Black. But on the flip side, she is praying that
none of her children will be born black.
Fiona
Fiona
Michael Shimshoni wrote in message
<4ADA5AB...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>...
>In article <9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de%
>"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru% writes:
>
>%Yes - there is no question that the Satmarers brought some Teimanim to the
>%US. But for the purposes of schnorring? And offering money for kids?
>%Incidentally, I think that the Satmarers did help some Iranian Jews escape
>%the Islamic paradise as well; whether they then joined the Satmar
community
>%is another story; I have no idea, and I never saw any dark skinned
Satmarers
>%on my many shopping trips to "Willy" 10-odd years ago.
>%
>%Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
>%of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights?
That
>%is just the way it is socially.
>
>In those communities the Rabbis have much influence on the behaviour
>of their flock. If those Rabbis do not condemn this racist
>behaviour it is their fault. It is not "socially" but rascistically.
>
>Not all O are like that. Among the O cousins (and none O ones)
>here is a considerable number of "intermarriages", i.e. marrying out
>of the Ashkenazi circle. Haredim are known to be much more
>inclined to racism on such matters, bring all kind of "halakha"
Can you bring a proof for that? In my experience that is certainly not the
case. On the contrary, I have found "secular" Jews to be far more racist
than Haredim. But that is just my experience. You can no doubt bring hard
documentary evidence that can make me change my mind, but as a Sephardi in
an Ashkenazi jungle, and having spent most of my life living with black
people my senses are finely tuned to racism issues, so I look forward to
seeing you defend your biggoted statement above.
>reasons for it. To a considerable extend the success of Shas
>is the result of Aguda rejecting them.
Shas are also Haredim!
Fiona
Fiona
R wrote in message <3B51ED60...@concentric.net>...
>CreedmoorChronicles wrote:
>>
>> This article looks spurious; if you read the article, you will see that
the
>> Jaradi family is suspected of child abuse and is looking to blame Satmar
for
>> their tragedy. Satmarers BUYING children? Satmarers having brought the
>> Yemenis over and then sending them to schnorr? Sounds way out in left
field.
>>
>> Ian (no Satmar sympathizer by any means, but no lover of fictitious news
>> stories either)
>
>I can vouch that there are indeed more that a few Teimanim (or
>else they are other dark-skinned peoples dressed up to look like
>Teimanim) integrated into the Satmar community in Williamsburg. I
Also in London.
A little bit of history: the Satmar operation to bring out Teimanim was set
up as an antidote to the wholesale destruction of Teimani Torah culture by
the Jewish Agency in the fifties and sixties. Israel needed workers, but was
reluctant to hire too many Arabs (for obvious reasons), and the Teimani (and
later the Ethiopians) were seen as suitable alternative field workers. If an
Ashkenazi got paid 10 shekels for a job, an Arab got one shekel and a
Teimani two for the same work. The Teimani were herded into 'Absorbsion
Centers' and de-Judaised, they were forced to give up their dress codes,
language, and minhagim. - Look at the Teimani in Israel today, all that is
left of their once rich and beautiful culture is their food and some wedding
Jewllery - Torah study was discouraged, and the camp schools taught the
Zionist work ethic, and encouraged Hillul Shabbat.
This was the background to the now famous Teimani child kidnapping stories.
And there is also the case of a Teimani father who was shot by a camp guard
for taking is daughter out of a camp school on Shabbat Hol HaMoed Pessah. Is
there any wonder that people like Rav Meshullam, believe that the Teimani
have a genuine grievance against Zionism? There is a school of thought that
believes the Teimani were literally tricked into emmigrating to Israel by
Zionists who pretended to be frum in order to whip up a spirit of redemption
fever amongst the Teimani only to deny them freedom of religious expression
once they got to Eretz Yisrael.
The conditions for the Jews left in Yemen are no better now than they ever
where, with the right kind of lubrication the Yemeni authorities allow a
small number of Jews to leave each year providing they don't go to Israel.
Satmar provide that lubrication and the assurances that the Teimani Jews who
leave are not bound for Israel. Yes there are points of conflict between the
Yiddish world of Satmar and the Judeo-Arabic world of the Teimani, but Yirat
Shamaim and Ahavat Torah make these points of friction fewer than between
the Teimani and the secular Zionist Ashkenazim in Israel. And all Torah
Jewry accepts that Minhag Aboteinu BeYadeinu is an important principle.
Fiona
N. Samuel R.
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:995328891.4482.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
Thank you very much for posting this.
BTW, you wouldn't happen to be related to 'Fiona Fennec' of 'Kevin and Kell'
fame, would you? (http://kevinandkell.com ) .
Whenever, I see your name that's what I think of! :o)
Fiona
Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
>
>"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message
>news:9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
>> Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of
one
>> of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families in Crown Heights?
>That
>> is just the way it is socially.
>
>Iranian Lubavitchers? Really? From Tehran or Kurdistan?
The most famous of whom is Shmueli Boteach, I think. Well ex-lubavitcher, if
that still counts.
Fiona
Useless fact #624: my spellchecker offers Biotech for Boteach.
CreedmoorChronicles
families have known each other for generations and prefer to marry within
their own circles (disastrous for the gene pool as cousin marriages come
into play here). Also, the Sefardic and Iranian Chabad families want to
maintain their identity and prefer to marry people of their own geographic
and ethnic origin. That is not to say that there are not some mixed
families; I know of the Lubavitch E family, originally from Tangier, which
is almost entirely mixed in this generation, so that most of the Lubavitch
bearers of this clearly Moroccan surname are actually at least 1/2
Ashkenazi, and a boy I knew from one of the old-line Chabad families which
was active in Russia during the Stalinist repression recently married the
daughter of one of the Milan Iranian families.
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
Harry Weiss
> It has nothing to do with halacha; it is simply that "old-line" Hassidic
> families have known each other for generations and prefer to marry within
> their own circles (disastrous for the gene pool as cousin marriages come
> into play here). Also, the Sefardic and Iranian Chabad families want to
> maintain their identity and prefer to marry people of their own geographic
> and ethnic origin. That is not to say that there are not some mixed
> families; I know of the Lubavitch E family, originally from Tangier, which
> is almost entirely mixed in this generation, so that most of the Lubavitch
> bearers of this clearly Moroccan surname are actually at least 1/2
> Ashkenazi, and a boy I knew from one of the old-line Chabad families which
> was active in Russia during the Stalinist repression recently married the
> daughter of one of the Milan Iranian families.
> Ian
Our Shaliach's father is Tunesian. His mother is from a big Lub family.
(R. Groner is his uncle)
> --
> ____________________________________________________________
>> In those communities the Rabbis have much influence on the behaviour
>> of their flock. If those Rabbis do not condemn this racist
>> behaviour it is their fault. It is not "socially" but rascistically.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Abe Kohen
> It has nothing to do with halacha; it is simply that "old-line" Hassidic
> families have known each other for generations and prefer to marry within
> their own circles (disastrous for the gene pool as cousin marriages come
> into play here). Also, the Sefardic and Iranian Chabad families want to
> maintain their identity and prefer to marry people of their own geographic
> and ethnic origin. That is not to say that there are not some mixed
> families; I know of the Lubavitch E family, originally from Tangier, which
> is almost entirely mixed in this generation, so that most of the Lubavitch
> bearers of this clearly Moroccan surname are actually at least 1/2
> Ashkenazi, and a boy I knew from one of the old-line Chabad families which
> was active in Russia during the Stalinist repression recently married the
> daughter of one of the Milan Iranian families.
"It has nothing to do with Halacha" is right. It is plain old fashioned
discrimination. It is not restricted to Lubavs or UO. We are all guilty.
Myself included.
Abe
July 17, 2001 12:39 am EDT
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> This article looks spurious; if you read the article, you will see that the
> Jaradi family is suspected of child abuse and is looking to blame Satmar for
> their tragedy. Satmarers BUYING children? Satmarers having brought the
> Yemenis over and then sending them to schnorr? Sounds way out in left field.
>
> Ian (no Satmar sympathizer by any means, but no lover of fictitious news
> stories either)
When I read the story, I had similar suspiscions. Good you pointed out
the real contradictions in the story. Pity Jonathan was so gullible,
accepted the story at face value and came out with a Satmar-bash.
I'll repeat a quetion I just asked, Have we learned nothing from the
"C rabbi's vacation" fiasco?
>> "The Satmars, they say you have to collect money, collect money,"
>> Mr. Jaradi said in an interview on Tuesday at a friend's house here.
>> "It's not easy. But what can you do? You have to listen."
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
Michael Shimshoni
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk% writes:
%Michael Shimshoni wrote in message
%<4ADA5AB...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>...
%>In article <9istli$khdqc$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de%
%>"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru% writes:
%>
%>%Yes - there is no question that the Satmarers brought some Teimanim to the
%>%US. But for the purposes of schnorring? And offering money for kids?
%>%Incidentally, I think that the Satmarers did help some Iranian Jews escape
%>%the Islamic paradise as well; whether they then joined the Satmar
%community
%>%is another story; I have no idea, and I never saw any dark skinned
%Satmarers
%>%on my many shopping trips to "Willy" 10-odd years ago.
%>%
%>%Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the son of one
%That
%>%is just the way it is socially.
%>
%>In those communities the Rabbis have much influence on the behaviour
%>of their flock. If those Rabbis do not condemn this racist
%>behaviour it is their fault. It is not "socially" but rascistically.
%>
%>Not all O are like that. Among the O cousins (and none O ones)
%>here is a considerable number of "intermarriages", i.e. marrying out
%>of the Ashkenazi circle. Haredim are known to be much more
% ******************************
%>inclined to racism on such matters, bring all kind of "halakha"
%
%Can you bring a proof for that? In my experience that is certainly not the
%case. On the contrary, I have found "secular" Jews to be far more racist
%than Haredim. But that is just my experience. You can no doubt bring hard
%documentary evidence that can make me change my mind, but as a Sephardi in
%an Ashkenazi jungle, and having spent most of my life living with black
%people my senses are finely tuned to racism issues, so I look forward to
%seeing you defend your biggoted statement above.
One thing that pushed Haredi Sfaradim towards Shas was the quota
system of the Ashkenazi haredi schools, allowing only a very small
proportion of Sfardi children to study in their schools.
This is true also now, and in the news we had many cases of
discriminations against haredi sfardi children. My three sons
went to general (non-O) schools and in them all children of the
school district were allowed in. In Rehovot the social division
was essentially North versus South, so the division line was
the north to south running Herzl Street, anyone to the east of
it went to one school, the rest to the other one. This was
especially true for junior high and high schools. For elementary
schools there were several schools on each side of Herzl St. I do
remember that there was a high percentage of mizra`hi children in
my sons' classes. e.g. there was a weak section of the city, Kfar
Gvirol, and thus their kids were bussed to to all other schools
in Rehovot while their school was closed. The above was at least
true when my sons (now from middle 30 to over 40) went to school.
%
%
%>reasons for it. To a considerable extend the success of Shas
%>is the result of Aguda rejecting them.
%
%Shas are also Haredim!
That is what I claimed, that among haredim the Ashkenazim discriminate
against Sfardi haredim. I call it racism, you may call me bigotted.
%Fiona
Michael Shimshoni
Jonathan J. Baker
>"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> writes:
>> This article looks spurious; if you read the article, you will see that the
>> Jaradi family is suspected of child abuse and is looking to blame Satmar for
>> their tragedy. Satmarers BUYING children? Satmarers having brought the
>> Yemenis over and then sending them to schnorr? Sounds way out in left field.
>> Ian (no Satmar sympathizer by any means, but no lover of fictitious news
>> stories either)
>When I read the story, I had similar suspiscions. Good you pointed out
>the real contradictions in the story. Pity Jonathan was so gullible,
>accepted the story at face value and came out with a Satmar-bash.
>I'll repeat a quetion I just asked, Have we learned nothing from the
>"C rabbi's vacation" fiasco?
Yes, but this was in the Pravda-Times. I mean, the Times may be somewhat
anti-Israel biased, but I haven't noticed the kind of heavy anti-religious
bias that motivates certain journalists in Israel to create complete
fictions, e.g., the man who had to divorce his wife who had been raped.
Exaggeration, perhaps, but is it complete fiction?
Abe Kohen
> where, with the right kind of lubrication the Yemeni authorities allow a
> small number of Jews to leave each year providing they don't go to Israel.
> Satmar provide that lubrication and the assurances that the Teimani Jews
who
> leave are not bound for Israel. Yes there are points of conflict between
the
> Yiddish world of Satmar and the Judeo-Arabic world of the Teimani, but
Yirat
> Shamaim and Ahavat Torah make these points of friction fewer than between
> the Teimani and the secular Zionist Ashkenazim in Israel. And all Torah
> Jewry accepts that Minhag Aboteinu BeYadeinu is an important principle.
So then how do you reconcile the above with your other post:
"That's great Micha, and Rafi is truly lucky that he lives in an
understanding community. I know of others in Rafi's position (i.e. Jewish by
birth but non-white) who have not been so lucky. I don't know how old Rafi
is, but once he moves out of the neighborhood he will very likely find
things a bit different. And it's always the little things that hurt the
most, like when visiting strange shuls always being asked who was the Rav
who did his gerut. Or simply being ignored like he wasn't there, or not
being counted in a minyan. I know people in Rafi's position who have given
up on Torah, and the kehilah, because of these things. Some of them become
rabid anti-semites to prove their allegiance to which ever new group the
choose. There are literally tens of thousands of black Jewish by birth
people in the US, Canada, France, and the UK and the vast majority of them
want nothing to do with the Jewish community."
How do you think a little (black) Teimani kid feels when taunted by his
Transylvanian (white) classmates in Satmar Yeshiva?
How do you think the Sephardi students in the Litvag Yeshivot in Bnei Brak
felt? A non-ashkenazi friend who spoke fluent English told me that the
Ashkenazi yeshiva students would make comments in Yiddish about how the
Sephardim stink. Since the words in Yiddish and English for stink are quite
similar, he understood what they said. Why do you think Shas was created?
Minhag Avoteinu B'yadeinu?
For the record, I have secular and religious Teimani friends in Israel. They
are infinitely better off than the Teimanim in Kiryas Yoel, New York. What
Mapai did to the Teimanim is unforgivable. What Satmar is now doing to the
Teimanim is just as unforgivable.
Abe
July 16, 2001 11:28 pm EDT
CreedmoorChronicles
more wrong than wanting to marry someone of different background - people
choose their mates according to all different sorts of criteria.
Ian
--
Micha Berger
: Yes, but this was in the Pravda-Times. I mean, the Times may be somewhat
: anti-Israel biased, but I haven't noticed the kind of heavy anti-religious
: bias that motivates certain journalists in Israel to create complete
: fictions, e.g., the man who had to divorce his wife who had been raped.
: Exaggeration, perhaps, but is it complete fiction?
I think a number of factors come into play here.
First, the reporter didn't know about Israel's Yaldei Teiman fiasco
(where children were litterally kidnapped from Teimani homes and placed in
secularist Ashkenazi ones) or at least didn't think it was important. The
story can NOT even resemble reality without it.
Second, we don't know how typical the Jaradi's experience was. This was
a couple who were -- by the husband's admission -- at wit's end at the
time. The Satmar community may have felt that this particular family
was incapable of being self supporting, and supported them off charity
in exchange for his help raising funds for that charity. Or not. We
don't know.
Third, any liberal paper's writer would start coverage assuming that the
westerner is victimizing the third world survivor. This story fits
that bias.
My own guess is that the family was a victim of a well meaning community
that was trying to help out a disfunctional home but didn't know the right
way to go about doing so. I could be wrong, of course, but it's a common
story in the adoption and foster care game.
Fiona
Michael Shimshoni wrote in message
While I hear what you are saying, and I don't disagree that there is racism
problem in the Haredi world, what I was objecting to is your relative value
judgement. To state that "Haredim are known to be much more inclined to
racism..." (presumably, than secular Jews) is in itself a bigotted
generalized statement akin to racism. And in my opinion, it is also not
true, in my own personal experience (and also from my historical
perspective) I have found secular Ashkenazim much more racist than Haredi
Ashkenazim.
The success of Shas has more to do with secular Ashkenazi arrogance than a
rejection by Aguda, Shas's powerbase is the ordinary Sefardi
man-one-the-street who feels abused and alienated by the Ashkenazi ruling
elite. I am by no means a follower of Rav Ovadia (I go by Rav Mordecai), but
I voted Shas in the last two elections, and I will continue to vote Shas
because they are the only political who represent my culture and history.
Non-Ashkenazim have been a majority in Israel for the last ten years or so
(according to figures I have seen) and yet if it were not for Shas we would
have virtually no representation in the corridors of power.
Fiona
Fiona
ever
>> where, with the right kind of lubrication the Yemeni authorities allow a
>> small number of Jews to leave each year providing they don't go to
Israel.
>> Satmar provide that lubrication and the assurances that the Teimani Jews
who
>> leave are not bound for Israel. Yes there are points of conflict between
the
>> Yiddish world of Satmar and the Judeo-Arabic world of the Teimani, but
Yirat
>> Shamaim and Ahavat Torah make these points of friction fewer than between
>> the Teimani and the secular Zionist Ashkenazim in Israel. And all Torah
>> Jewry accepts that Minhag Aboteinu BeYadeinu is an important principle.
>
>Thank you very much for posting this.
>
>BTW, you wouldn't happen to be related to 'Fiona Fennec' of 'Kevin and
Kell'
>fame, would you? (http://kevinandkell.com ) .
Related to a cartoon fox!? In what way do you suppose, by blood or marriage?
>Whenever, I see your name that's what I think of! :o)
Having never heard of this comic strip before, I will *try* to take that as
a compliment.
Fiona (sans red hair and bushy tail)
toichen
> In <m> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >The New York Times has an interesting story about Yemeni Jews living among
> >the Satmar. For the full story please see:
>
> >There wasn't much time to study, either, he said,
> >because he was required to spend many hours collecting donations for
> >the Satmars. Mr. Jaradi said he was allowed to keep only a small
> >part for living expenses.
> ...
> >Concerned that their ethnic identity was being erased, he said, the
> >family began to act more independently. Mr. Jaradi took a job as a
> >taxi driver, against the wishes of his rabbinical teachers. Mrs.
> >Jaradi cared for the children, but her husband said they had to fend
> >off Satmars who offered to buy their children for as much as $20,000
> >apiece.
>
> The anti-zionists take a page from the zionist Jewish Agency in treating
> the Teimanim like so much chattel (cattle?) - even to the treating
> their children as commodities.
>
> I thought we had done away with slavery in this country in 1863?
No way! The satmarers all have slaves preferably black ones, and if
they can't find black slaves then they take Teimani's who are dark
brown.
Thank you Jonathan for pointing out to all of us the true face of the
fanatically narrow minded Satmarers.
toichen
N. Samuel R.
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:995402461.3509.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
N.R. asked:
> >BTW, you wouldn't happen to be related to 'Fiona Fennec' of 'Kevin and
> Kell'
> >fame, would you? (http://kevinandkell.com ) .
>
> Related to a cartoon fox!? In what way do you suppose, by blood or marriage?
>
> >Whenever, I see your name that's what I think of! :o)
>
> Having never heard of this comic strip before, I will *try* to take that as
> a compliment.
>
>
> Fiona (sans red hair and bushy tail)
Oy! Usenet is so conducive to misunderstanding; it is so difficult to express
nuances, subtelties, etc.
I was actually worried that you may take my comment the wrong way. Please allow
me to explain.
At the present time, my only conscious association with the name 'Fiona' is with
the character 'Fiona Fennec' in Kevin & Kell, one of my favorite comic strips.
Therefore, whenever I see your posts here, I automatically make that
word-association. My asking if you were related was meant only as a light and
humorous comment, nothing more. I did not mean to imply that you were in any way
comparable to the cartoon character Fiona Fennec.
Please forgive me if I offended you in any way.
N. Samuel R.
"toichen" <toi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:dd1c0ee8.01071...@posting.google.com...
J. Baker:
> > The anti-zionists take a page from the zionist Jewish Agency in treating
> > the Teimanim like so much chattel (cattle?) - even to the treating
> > their children as commodities.
> >
> > I thought we had done away with slavery in this country in 1863?
Toichen:
> No way! The satmarers all have slaves preferably black ones, and if
> they can't find black slaves then they take Teimani's who are dark
> brown.
> Thank you Jonathan for pointing out to all of us the true face of the
> fanatically narrow minded Satmarers.
> toichen
N.R:
<Sarcasm on> Don't forget how they also kill the the slave children to bake
matzohs when they have a shortage of the blood of Zionist children to use.
<Sarcasm off>
Jonathan J. Baker
>"toichen" <toi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>J. Baker:
>> > The anti-zionists take a page from the zionist Jewish Agency in treating
>> > the Teimanim like so much chattel (cattle?) - even to the treating
>> > their children as commodities.
>> >
>> > I thought we had done away with slavery in this country in 1863?
>Toichen:
>> No way! The satmarers all have slaves preferably black ones, and if
>> they can't find black slaves then they take Teimani's who are dark
>> brown.
>> Thank you Jonathan for pointing out to all of us the true face of the
>> fanatically narrow minded Satmarers.
>> toichen
>N.R:
><Sarcasm on> Don't forget how they also kill the the slave children to bake
>matzohs when they have a shortage of the blood of Zionist children to use.
><Sarcasm off>
Oh shut up.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> CreedmoorChronicles wrote:
>>
>>> Would a Russian Lubavitcher family let their daughter marry the
>> son of one of the many Moroccan and Iranian Lubavitcher families
>> in Crown Heights? That is just the way it is socially.
>
> There are few unmixed "Russian Lubavitcher" families left in
> Crown Heights. Most Lubavitcher families here are American,
> Americans of Polish (not Russian) extraction, English, French,
> Israeli, Middle-Eastern/North African, and all sorts of mixtures
> in between. Some have some original Russian-Lubo blood, most do
> not. Marriage between and among these groups happens all the time.
Nice to hear.
> FWIW: I myself have a half-Egyptian son-in-law, and no
> complaints about it.
Which half? Left-right? Top-bottom? Curious minds want to know. :-)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Eliyahu <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> : Your question reminded me of a comment that Rabbi Sholom Lipskar
> : of the Lubavitch Aleph Institute made
snip
> : "I have no problem with Jews marrying fellow Jews of any race or
> : color. What I do have a problem with is Jews dating or marrying
> : non-Jews." ...
>
> You reminded me of one "brilliant" comment a neighbor made to my
> wife recently.
>
> As I've mentioned here before, our oldest, Rafi, is black. Okay,
> technically he's biracial as he's Ashkenazi on his birth-mother's
> side, but he looks firmly African American.
>
> One woman asked my wife what she would do if Rafi brought home a
> black girl. Jewish, of course, she rapidly added. Would we welcome
> her? How would we feel about having black children?
>
> Well, gee, having a black son hasn't bothered us yet, I think
> we'll be able to handle it...
What a lovely story. You and your wife are obviously doing something
extremely "right". Keep it up.
> BTW, interesting thing to note about this story -- aside from the
> lady's lack of forethought... People in the neighborhood see Rafi
> as Rafi, not as "that black frum kid".
Excelent! That's what I meant.
> Which is why she instinctively thought of him marrying a black
> Jew as being a cross-racial issue.
That _is_ very humorous.
> Most of our neighbors don't see Rafi in terms of race. Race is an
> issue when dealing in numbers or stereotypes. Once you get to know
> the person, it's about as relevent as pupil color.
Minor nit. IINM, _all_ pupils are black. It's the iris that varies
in color. (Or maybe that was your subtle point)
Jordi Sod
> BTW, interesting thing to note about this story -- aside from the lady's
> lack of forethought... People in the neighborhood see Rafi as Rafi,
> not as "that black frum kid". Which is why she instinctively thought
> of him marrying a black Jew as being a cross-racial issue. Most of our
> neighbors don't see Rafi in terms of race. Race is an issue when dealing
> in numbers or stereotypes. Once you get to know the person, it's about
> as relevent as pupil color.
... make that eye color. Most pupils are black anyway. :)
Incidentally, this is something that my family has been concerned
about as well. Little Daniela is almost half Japanese. It's way
too early to tell how she'll end up looking. If she keeps it up,
she'll be REALLY REALLY CUTE, though. My parents were
concerned how well she and Susana would be welcome in Jewish
places, for instance, the Sports Club (nota bene: it's not only a
club, but one of the main social centers of the community.). As I
told Susana, if someone rejects you for the way you look, you
wouldn't want to have anything to do with that person in the first
place. Still, I am concerned about preparing Danielita for the
unavoidable remarks she'll have to deal with. Both Susana and I
have a long history of not fitting into our surroundings. We both
look foreign in our country. I am sure Daniela will pull through.
Still, one of the reasons I am looking for an O-C conversion is that
nobody will be able to tell Daniela she's not Jewish and get away
with it.
>
> -mi
Jordi
Jonathan J. Baker
>Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> writes:
>> BTW, interesting thing to note about this story -- aside from the
>> lady's lack of forethought... People in the neighborhood see Rafi
>> as Rafi, not as "that black frum kid".
>> Which is why she instinctively thought of him marrying a black
>> Jew as being a cross-racial issue.
>That _is_ very humorous.
It can also lead to strange things. In 1991, I was at the home
of a Lubavitcher, where the (black convert) long-time shammos of
the shul was also visiting. The little boys were telling "Uncle
Willie" (the shammos) that their teacher had told them (in the
wake of the Crown Heights riots) that "we're going to kill the
schvartzes" - not realizing that their beloved "uncle Willie"
was one of that class.
Being Jewish may be a race thing, but it isn't a color thing.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Huge snip
>>%>To a considerable extend the success of Shas
>>%>is the result of Aguda rejecting them.
>>%
>>%Shas are also Haredim!
>>
>>That is what I claimed, that among haredim the Ashkenazim discriminate
>>against Sfardi haredim. I call it racism, you may call me bigotted.
>
> While I hear what you are saying, and I don't disagree that there is racism
> problem in the Haredi world, what I was objecting to is your relative value
> judgement. To state that "Haredim are known to be much more inclined to
> racism..." (presumably, than secular Jews) is in itself a bigotted
> generalized statement akin to racism. And in my opinion, it is also not
> true, in my own personal experience (and also from my historical
> perspective) I have found secular Ashkenazim much more racist than Haredi
> Ashkenazim.
At least Haredi Ashkenazim are aware that there is a prohibition
against such racism. It doesn't always help. <sigh> And (forgive
me) sometimes keeping a difference is justified. There are definite
differences in the mindset of Ashkenazim and Sfardim. Just to use an
aexample that most posters here can appreciate, the way Sfardim
consider women is several degrees lower than Ashkenazim.
> The success of Shas has more to do with secular Ashkenazi arrogance
> than a rejection by Aguda, Shas's powerbase is the ordinary Sefardi
> man-one-the-street who feels abused and alienated by the Ashkenazi ruling
> elite. I am by no means a follower of Rav Ovadia (I go by Rav Mordecai), but
> I voted Shas in the last two elections, and I will continue to vote Shas
> because they are the only political who represent my culture and history.
> Non-Ashkenazim have been a majority in Israel for the last ten years or so
> (according to figures I have seen) and yet if it were not for Shas we would
> have virtually no representation in the corridors of power.
There is another reason Shas is so successful. There out there,
working for their constituents all year every year and _not_ just
at election time. There was an article in the Jerusalem Post last
Friday about the Shas Minister of Health. There was a qoute made by
a functionary of the Ministry. "I wish all Health Ministers were
from Shas. They worry about the people and not their own personal
political careers".
Eliyahu
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2001Jul1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
>
>
> At least Haredi Ashkenazim are aware that there is a prohibition
> against such racism. It doesn't always help. <sigh> And (forgive
> me) sometimes keeping a difference is justified. There are definite
> differences in the mindset of Ashkenazim and Sfardim. Just to use an
> aexample that most posters here can appreciate, the way Sfardim
> consider women is several degrees lower than Ashkenazim.
>
women is simply different than ours... not higher or lower, just different.
While some of it is cultural, they'll also make reasoned argument based on
halacha for that difference.
--
Eliyahu Rooff
www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm
RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm
Jordi Sod
><mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>news:2001Jul1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
>>
>>
>> At least Haredi Ashkenazim are aware that there is a prohibition
>> against such racism. It doesn't always help. <sigh> And (forgive
>> me) sometimes keeping a difference is justified. There are definite
>> differences in the mindset of Ashkenazim and Sfardim. Just to use an
>> aexample that most posters here can appreciate, the way Sfardim
>> consider women is several degrees lower than Ashkenazim.
>>
>But that's only from our own POV. To a Sfardi, their view and treatment of
>women is simply different than ours... not higher or lower, just different.
>While some of it is cultural, they'll also make reasoned argument based on
>halacha for that difference.
I am curious about any such halachic differences. In any
case, the simple rule of following the husband's nusach should
be enough to bridge halachic conflicts.
>--
>Eliyahu Rooff
>www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm
>RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm
Jordi
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Fiona
N. Samuel R. wrote in message <9j3313$lkuku$1...@ID-67534.news.dfncis.de>...
>[P&M]
>
>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:995402461.3509.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
>N.R. asked:
>> >BTW, you wouldn't happen to be related to 'Fiona Fennec' of 'Kevin and
>> Kell'
>> >fame, would you? (http://kevinandkell.com ) .
>>
>> Related to a cartoon fox!? In what way do you suppose, by blood or
marriage?
>>
>> >Whenever, I see your name that's what I think of! :o)
>>
>> Having never heard of this comic strip before, I will *try* to take that
as
>> a compliment.
>>
>>
>> Fiona (sans red hair and bushy tail)
>
>Oy! Usenet is so conducive to misunderstanding; it is so difficult to
express
>nuances, subtelties, etc.
Ditto
>I was actually worried that you may take my comment the wrong way. Please
allow
>me to explain.
I didn't, but you seemly misunderstood my reply.
>At the present time, my only conscious association with the name 'Fiona' is
with
>the character 'Fiona Fennec' in Kevin & Kell, one of my favorite comic
strips.
>Therefore, whenever I see your posts here, I automatically make that
>word-association. My asking if you were related was meant only as a light
and
>humorous comment, nothing more. I did not mean to imply that you were in
any way
>comparable to the cartoon character Fiona Fennec.
No worries, that was the way I understood it.
>Please forgive me if I offended you in any way.
I wasn't....
.....much.
Fiona
Fiona
Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
>
Which bit are you having trouble with?
You are not comparing like with like. The paragraphs discuss completely
different situations. The first talks about two different sects of Haredim,
both with equally stong histories and minhagim. The second talks primarily
about Jews who are born nominally Jewish of a white Jewish mother and a
black non-Jewish father.
The only similarity between the two is their skin colour. If a Teimani youth
gets fed up with the taunts of his Ashkenazi peers and rejects their ways he
will more than likely fall back on his family traditions. He may even be
strengthed in loyalty to his Teimani roots, but he will 9 times out of 10
remain Haredi. A youth with a white Jewish mother and black non-Jewish who
gets fed up with the taunts of his Ashkenazi peers will more than likely
reject Judaism altogether, after all he has no minhagim inhereted from his
father so by default he takes the minhagim of his (Ashkenazi) mother's
family (or his step father if he is lucky enough to have one, many don't).
Do you understand the difference?
>How do you think a little (black) Teimani kid feels when taunted by his
>Transylvanian (white) classmates in Satmar Yeshiva?
Probably much like I did as the only Jewish girl in a non-Jewish school.
>How do you think the Sephardi students in the Litvag Yeshivot in Bnei Brak
>felt? A non-ashkenazi friend who spoke fluent English told me that the
>Ashkenazi yeshiva students would make comments in Yiddish about how the
>Sephardim stink. Since the words in Yiddish and English for stink are quite
>similar, he understood what they said. Why do you think Shas was created?
I answer that elsewhere!
>Minhag Avoteinu B'yadeinu?
That was one of the reasons.
>For the record, I have secular and religious Teimani friends in Israel.
And some of my best friends are..... Hmmm, now where have I heard that
before?
>They are infinitely better off than the Teimanim in Kiryas Yoel, New York.
Probably, but the Teimanim of Kiryat Yoel are infinitely better off than
they were in Yemen, and Satmar are the ONLY people willing and able to bring
Jews out of Yemen at the present time. The good they are doing outways the
negative side that many in your camp like make into an issue.
> What Mapai did to the Teimanim is unforgivable.
Absolutely.
> What Satmar is now doing to the Teimanim is just as unforgivable.
How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing, selling
Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
Fiona
Jess Olson
>of a Lubavitcher, where the (black convert) long-time shammos of
>the shul was also visiting. The little boys were telling "Uncle
>Willie" (the shammos) that their teacher had told them (in the
>wake of the Crown Heights riots) that "we're going to kill the
>schvartzes" - not realizing that their beloved "uncle Willie"
>was one of that class.
Stories like this make me very sad. I hope someone explained to
the kids why what there rebbe melamed said reflected a profound
lack of derekh eretz.
Yishai
Michael Shimshoni
19 Jul 2001 08:53:48 GMT Moshe wrote:
%"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
%> Michael Shimshoni wrote in message
%>>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk% writes:
%>>%Michael Shimshoni wrote in message
%>>%>"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru% writes:
%
%Huge snip
%
%>>%>To a considerable extend the success of Shas
%>>%>is the result of Aguda rejecting them.
%>>%
%>>%Shas are also Haredim!
%>>
%>>That is what I claimed, that among haredim the Ashkenazim discriminate
%>>against Sfardi haredim. I call it racism, you may call me bigotted.
%>
%> While I hear what you are saying, and I don't disagree that there is racism
%> problem in the Haredi world, what I was objecting to is your relative value
%> judgement. To state that "Haredim are known to be much more inclined to
%> racism..." (presumably, than secular Jews) is in itself a bigotted
%> generalized statement akin to racism. And in my opinion, it is also not
%> true, in my own personal experience (and also from my historical
%> perspective) I have found secular Ashkenazim much more racist than Haredi
%> Ashkenazim.
%
%At least Haredi Ashkenazim are aware that there is a prohibition
%against such racism. It doesn't always help. <sigh> And (forgive
%me) sometimes keeping a difference is justified. There are definite
%differences in the mindset of Ashkenazim and Sfardim. Just to use an
%aexample that most posters here can appreciate, the way Sfardim
%consider women is several degrees lower than Ashkenazim.
If you speak about haredim, both Ashkenazim and Sfaradim hold them
pretty low, so it would be difficult to find a difference!
%> The success of Shas has more to do with secular Ashkenazi arrogance
%> than a rejection by Aguda, Shas's powerbase is the ordinary Sefardi
%> man-one-the-street who feels abused and alienated by the Ashkenazi ruling
%> elite. I am by no means a follower of Rav Ovadia (I go by Rav Mordecai), but
%> I voted Shas in the last two elections, and I will continue to vote Shas
%> because they are the only political who represent my culture and history.
%> Non-Ashkenazim have been a majority in Israel for the last ten years or so
%> (according to figures I have seen) and yet if it were not for Shas we would
%> have virtually no representation in the corridors of power.
%
%There is another reason Shas is so successful. There out there,
% working for their constituents all year every year and _not_ just
%at election time. There was an article in the Jerusalem Post last
%Friday about the Shas Minister of Health. There was a qoute made by
%a functionary of the Ministry. "I wish all Health Ministers were
=============================
%from Shas. They worry about the people and not their own personal
%political careers".
Do you consider the opinion of a functionary of a ministry about
his minister to be an unbiased opinion? I have not seen that
Shas ministers are especially effective about helping the weak
and poor.
%Moshe Schorr
Michael Shimshoni
Susan Cohen
Eliyahu wrote:
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:2001Jul1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> >
> >
> > At least Haredi Ashkenazim are aware that there is a prohibition
> > against such racism. It doesn't always help. <sigh> And (forgive
> > me) sometimes keeping a difference is justified. There are definite
> > differences in the mindset of Ashkenazim and Sfardim. Just to use an
> > aexample that most posters here can appreciate, the way Sfardim
> > consider women is several degrees lower than Ashkenazim.
> >
> But that's only from our own POV. To a Sfardi, their view and treatment of
> women is simply different than ours... not higher or lower, just different.
> While some of it is cultural, they'll also make reasoned argument based on
> halacha for that difference.
Reminds me exactly of the difference between religious
and secular Jews (or even Orthodox & other Jews)
Susan
CreedmoorChronicles
> Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
Please, this is speculation of the most far-fetched sort, which I have
heretofore heard only from excerpts of Barry Chamish's books. Barry Chamish
believes in space alien conspiracies and UFO's.
Ian
Harry Weiss
> Ian
The problem is that Chamish has some good and legitimate stuff, but it is
buried in tons of drivel.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
meirm...@erols.com
"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> posted:
>> How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing, selling
>> Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
>
>
>Please, this is speculation of the most far-fetched sort, which I have
It's not speculation at all. It's meant as an absurd reference.
Despite your bringing up Barry Chamish, you make it sound like Fiona
meant this to be taken as if it might be true. She didn't.
>heretofore heard only from excerpts of Barry Chamish's books. Barry Chamish
>believes in space alien conspiracies and UFO's.
>
>Ian
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
toichen
Teimani kids were unquestionably sold by the Israeli government, and I
myself have seen an ad placed by the Israeli embassy in Argentina (I
think it was there) offering help with adopting children. Don't ask me
for a reference as I saw it many many years ago.
toichen
Michael Shimshoni
22 Jul 2001 18:19:40 GMT toichen wrote:
%"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message news:<9j8fof$mcg
%> > How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing, selling
%> > Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
%>
%>
%> Please, this is speculation of the most far-fetched sort, which I have
%> heretofore heard only from excerpts of Barry Chamish's books. Barry Chamish
%> believes in space alien conspiracies and UFO's.
%>
%> Ian
%
%Teimani kids were unquestionably sold by the Israeli government, and I
==============
%myself have seen an ad placed by the Israeli embassy in Argentina (I
=
%think it was there) offering help with adopting children. Don't ask me
==================
%for a reference as I saw it many many years ago.
===============================================
toichen libels Israel and its government, while he himself admits
that he is not sure when and where he saw that ad, and has no reference
as it was so many years ago.
I challenge toichen to fill in the details as I am sure that
his whole story is nothing but a lie. I will withdraw this statement
and accusation and apologize if he can prove his statement which he
has the hutspa to define as "unquestionable". I *question* it, and
how!
%toichen
Michael Shimshoni
CreedmoorChronicles
were probably kidnapped and sent to childless homes for adoption.
meirm...@erols.com
Kohen" <abek...@yahoo.com> posted:
I have a friend who went to Israel as a tourist when she was in her
20's. She met a Teimani boy and liked him, but then she went home.
Over the next few years she became religious and went back for
seminary or something. She met the same boy and, harei, he was
religious too. They married and moved to Netanya. Had a kid, etc.
When I was there, I stayed with them for 2 or 3 nights. She confirmed
the some of the sad stories Fiona told and recommended a book that
deals with this. It's the sad sort of book I'm not going to read, and
I forget it's name.
>How do you think a little (black) Teimani kid feels when taunted by his
>Transylvanian (white) classmates in Satmar Yeshiva?
So I went with the husband to a Teimani shul and neither he nor most
of/anyone else I saw there would I call black, nor his parents and
whatever other family I met at their home. I wouldn't call them brown
either. More like white.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
Much snipped
>>For the record, I have secular and religious Teimani friends in Israel.
>
> And some of my best friends are..... Hmmm, now where have I heard that
> before?
>
>>They are infinitely better off than the Teimanim in Kiryas Yoel, New York.
>
> Probably, but the Teimanim of Kiryat Yoel are infinitely better off than
> they were in Yemen, and Satmar are the ONLY people willing and able to bring
> Jews out of Yemen at the present time. The good they are doing outways the
> negative side that many in your camp like make into an issue.
I must say, Fiona is winning this debate, hands down. Maybe because
she's BTDT and Abe is talking second-hand.
>> What Mapai did to the Teimanim is unforgivable.
>
> Absolutely.
>
>> What Satmar is now doing to the Teimanim is just as unforgivable.
>
> How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing, selling
> Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
What are you talking about?
Fiona
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote in message <2001Jul2...@mm.huji.ac.il>...
>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
>
>Much snipped
>
>>>For the record, I have secular and religious Teimani friends in Israel.
>>
>> And some of my best friends are..... Hmmm, now where have I heard that
>> before?
>>
>>>They are infinitely better off than the Teimanim in Kiryas Yoel, New
York.
>>
>> Probably, but the Teimanim of Kiryat Yoel are infinitely better off than
>> they were in Yemen, and Satmar are the ONLY people willing and able to
bring
>> Jews out of Yemen at the present time. The good they are doing outways
the
>> negative side that many in your camp like make into an issue.
>
>I must say, Fiona is winning this debate, hands down. Maybe because
>she's BTDT and Abe is talking second-hand.
Thanks Moshe, but I do not see this as a win or lose situation.
>>> What Mapai did to the Teimanim is unforgivable.
>>
>> Absolutely.
>>
>>> What Satmar is now doing to the Teimanim is just as unforgivable.
>>
>> How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing, selling
>> Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
>
>What are you talking about?
Rabbi Meshullam, the Teimani Rav who was very vocal on this issue and one of
the people who revived interest in the case a few years ago and who is now
in prison for illegal possession of fire arms, was asked by the journalist
Barry Chamish recently why, if he knows who the 4500 kidnapped children
were, doesn't he just reunite them with their parents. He was quoted as
replying along the lines of 'I can't, they are dead. They were sold to the
Americans for radiation testing.'
Outlandish? Yes. True? G-d knows.
I mentioned it here because Abe was making an unqualified and
unsubstantiated accusation about Satmar's actions being "just as
unforgivable." My reply implied that to make a moral equivalence Abe's
accusation must be at least as crazy as this.
Fiona
CreedmoorChronicles
outlook, perhaps by someone affiliated with the extremist Teimani activist
Uzi Meshulam.
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
toichen
> ==============
> %myself have seen an ad placed by the Israeli embassy in Argentina (I
> =
> %think it was there) offering help with adopting children. Don't ask me
> ==================
> %for a reference as I saw it many many years ago.
> ===============================================
>
> toichen libels Israel and its government, while he himself admits
> that he is not sure when and where he saw that ad, and has no reference
> as it was so many years ago.
>
> I challenge toichen to fill in the details as I am sure that
> his whole story is nothing but a lie. I will withdraw this statement
> and accusation and apologize if he can prove his statement which he
> has the hutspa to define as "unquestionable". I *question* it, and
> how!
>
> %toichen
>
> Michael Shimshoni
You know the evidence as well as I.
Kids taken to hospital for routine check ups and then 'dying'.
The empty graves.
The fact that the children received call up papers for the army.
The fact that if the parents protested violently in the hospital the
children wre brought back to them.
There is far far more, go to any Teimani person in the street and
chances are he will know of a child that went missing for no apparent
reason.
toichen
Abe Kohen
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2001Jul2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
Been have problems losing posts lately, so I don't think I saw Fiona's
response. Thanks, Moshe, for referencing her post.
> > Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
>
> Much snipped
>
> >>For the record, I have secular and religious Teimani friends in Israel.
> >
> > And some of my best friends are..... Hmmm, now where have I heard that
> > before?
FWIW, when I moved to Israel in high school, I attended a school that was
highly not Ashkenazi. Lots of Moroccans, Iraquis, Indians, Persians, and
Yemenites, among others. So some of my best friends, from high school, are
indeed ... No need to "Hmmm."
> >
> >>They are infinitely better off than the Teimanim in Kiryas Yoel, New
York.
> >
> > Probably, but the Teimanim of Kiryat Yoel are infinitely better off than
> > they were in Yemen, and Satmar are the ONLY people willing and able to
bring
> > Jews out of Yemen at the present time. The good they are doing outways
the
> > negative side that many in your camp like make into an issue.
What do you, Fiona, mean that ONLY Satmar are willing and able. What's the
basis for this?
>
> I must say, Fiona is winning this debate, hands down. Maybe because
> she's BTDT and Abe is talking second-hand.
Moshe loves acronyms. What do you mean she's Been There, Done That? Been
where? Done what?
>
> >> What Mapai did to the Teimanim is unforgivable.
> >
> > Absolutely.
> >
> >> What Satmar is now doing to the Teimanim is just as unforgivable.
> >
> > How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing, selling
> > Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
>
> What are you talking about?
Good question, Moshe.
Abe
July 24, 2001 7:42 am EDT
Eliyahu
for urban legends, Israeli style. Can you supply statistical evidence,
specific cases, references from respected media sites available to all of
us, etc?
meirm...@erols.com
Kohen" <abek...@yahoo.com> posted:
>
>>
>> I must say, Fiona is winning this debate, hands down. Maybe because
>> she's BTDT and Abe is talking second-hand.
>
>Moshe loves acronyms. What do you mean she's Been There, Done That? Been
>where? Done what?
I thought it meant Baal Tshuvah, Double Throw.
Please, go back to your serious topic.
Abe Kohen
I'm surprised that you resort to such a cheap trick to imply that there
might be some element of truth to Meshulam's shenanigans.
The best way to describe Meshulam is to call him the Al Sharpton of Israel.
>
> I mentioned it here because Abe was making an unqualified and
> unsubstantiated accusation about Satmar's actions being "just as
> unforgivable." My reply implied that to make a moral equivalence Abe's
> accusation must be at least as crazy as this.
Having lived among the Satmar in Williamsburg, being fluent in both
Hungarian and Yiddish, listening to what they say when they think no one
understands is quite an education.
Why don't you ask Yosselle Shuchmacher, a nice Ashkenazi, kidnapped by his
grandfather and the Satmars, what it was like living among the Satmar in
Williamsburg? I recall an interview in the Israeli papers maybe three years
ago.
Or Shai Fhima?
Abe
July 24, 2001 9:09 pm EDT
toichen
These are facts, as well known in Israel as the sun shining in the
east and setting in the west, the only differences of opinion is how
to interpret those facts.
toichen
Michael Shimshoni
toi...@my-deja.com (toichen) writes:
%> %Teimani kids were unquestionably sold by the Israeli government, and I
%> ==============
%> %myself have seen an ad placed by the Israeli embassy in Argentina (I
%> =
%> %think it was there) offering help with adopting children. Don't ask me
%> ==================
%> %for a reference as I saw it many many years ago.
%> ===============================================
%>
%> toichen libels Israel and its government, while he himself admits
%> that he is not sure when and where he saw that ad, and has no reference
%> as it was so many years ago.
%>
%> I challenge toichen to fill in the details as I am sure that
%> his whole story is nothing but a lie. I will withdraw this statement
%> and accusation and apologize if he can prove his statement which he
%> has the hutspa to define as "unquestionable". I *question* it, and
%> how!
%>
%> %toichen
%>
%> Michael Shimshoni
%
%You know the evidence as well as I.
Don't tell me what I know.
%Kids taken to hospital for routine check ups and then 'dying'.
At the level of health among that population many children were
dying not "dying".
%The empty graves.
This was explained by the committee.
%The fact that the children received call up papers for the army.
I know that even these days children who had died a few years
ago got later call up papers. The usual mess of gov. offices.
%The fact that if the parents protested violently in the hospital the
%children wre brought back to them.
%There is far far more, go to any Teimani person in the street and
%chances are he will know of a child that went missing for no apparent
%reason.
There are those teimanim who feel like that, by far not all of them.
It is always hard to accept death and if there are rumours one tries
to cling to them. As to any teimani in the street, I do not know how
many teimanim you know, I live in Rehovot, a city with a huge teimani
community, and I do know a great number of teimanim quite well.
All the above does not claim that there have been no cases at all
of children removed under false pretenses from there parents, but these
were relatively rare exceptions, and of course should not have happened.
%toichen
Michael Shimshoni
CreedmoorChronicles
Yossele Schumacher's grandfather was actually an old yishuv Yerushalmi who
may have in some way affiliated with Breslov (incidentally, his relatives in
the UK are Chabad), and the family he stayed with belonged to a sort of semi
cult known as the "Melachim," whose only similarity to Satmar was perhaps in
mode of dress. They actually based their "philosophy" on the Tanya! As for
Shai Fhima, again an independent quasi-cult leader was to blame, his
kidnapper was not Satmar.
Satmar is a specific community. Yes, they are anti-Zionist, isolationist
etc. No, they are not responsible for every evil committed by some character
in a beard, peyos, longreckel and shtreimel.
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
Michael Shimshoni
%> "toichen" <toi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
%> news:dd1c0ee8.01072...@posting.google.com...
%> > > %Teimani kids were unquestionably sold by the Israeli government, and I
%> > > ==============
%> > > %myself have seen an ad placed by the Israeli embassy in Argentina (I
%> > > =
%> > > %think it was there) offering help with adopting children. Don't ask me
%> > > ==================
%> > > %for a reference as I saw it many many years ago.
%> > > ===============================================
%> > >
%> > > toichen libels Israel and its government, while he himself admits
%> > > that he is not sure when and where he saw that ad, and has no reference
%> > > as it was so many years ago.
%> > >
%> > > I challenge toichen to fill in the details as I am sure that
%> > > his whole story is nothing but a lie. I will withdraw this statement
%> > > and accusation and apologize if he can prove his statement which he
%> > > has the hutspa to define as "unquestionable". I *question* it, and
%> > > how!
%> > >
%> > > %toichen
%> > >
%> > > Michael Shimshoni
%> >
%> > Kids taken to hospital for routine check ups and then 'dying'.
%> > The empty graves.
%> > The fact that the children received call up papers for the army.
%> > The fact that if the parents protested violently in the hospital the
%> > children wre brought back to them.
%> > There is far far more, go to any Teimani person in the street and
%> > chances are he will know of a child that went missing for no apparent
%> > reason.
%> >
%> Those are allegations, not evidence. Michael asked for details, not fodder
%> for urban legends, Israeli style. Can you supply statistical evidence,
%> specific cases, references from respected media sites available to all of
%> us, etc?
%
%These are facts, as well known in Israel as the sun shining in the
%east and setting in the west, the only differences of opinion is how
%to interpret those facts.
I live in Israel and am not aware of your facts. You bringing in
astronomical evidence does not convince me, although I am a fellow
of the Royal Astronomical Society...
%toichen
Michael Shimshoni
Abe Kohen
> Neither Yossele Schumacher nor Shai Fhima were involved with Satmars.
> Yossele Schumacher's grandfather was actually an old yishuv Yerushalmi who
> may have in some way affiliated with Breslov (incidentally, his relatives
in
> the UK are Chabad), and the family he stayed with belonged to a sort of
semi
> cult known as the "Melachim," whose only similarity to Satmar was perhaps
in
> mode of dress. They actually based their "philosophy" on the Tanya!
Gimme a break. The French gioret who transported and hid the child (YS)
ended up marrying Reb Amram Blau. Satmar, not Breslov, and not Lubavitch.
> As for
> Shai Fhima, again an independent quasi-cult leader was to blame, his
> kidnapper was not Satmar.
???
>
> Satmar is a specific community. Yes, they are anti-Zionist, isolationist
> etc. No, they are not responsible for every evil committed by some
character
> in a beard, peyos, longreckel and shtreimel.
When you live in Williamsburg, you learn to differentiate between Satmar,
Poopa, Kloisenberg, Tseilem, etc. It's not that difficult at all.
Abe
July 27, 2001 12:25 am EDT
toichen
> %> > Kids taken to hospital for routine check ups and then 'dying'.
> %> > The empty graves.
> %> > The fact that the children received call up papers for the army.
> %> > The fact that if the parents protested violently in the hospital the
> %> > children wre brought back to them.
> %> > There is far far more, go to any Teimani person in the street and
> %> > chances are he will know of a child that went missing for no apparent
> %> > reason.
> %> >
> %> Those are allegations, not evidence. Michael asked for details, not fodder
> %> for urban legends, Israeli style. Can you supply statistical evidence,
> %> specific cases, references from respected media sites available to all of
> %> us, etc?
> %
> %These are facts, as well known in Israel as the sun shining in the
> %east and setting in the west, the only differences of opinion is how
> %to interpret those facts.
>
> I live in Israel and am not aware of your facts.
You contradict yourself on the same thread, here is another post of
yours!
toichen:
%You know the evidence as well as I.
Michael:
Don't tell me what I know.
toichen:
%Kids taken to hospital for routine check ups and then 'dying'.
Michael:
At the level of health among that population many children were
dying not "dying".
toichen:
%The empty graves.
Michael:
This was explained by the committee.
toichen:
%The fact that the children received call up papers for the army.
Michael:
I know that even these days children who had died a few years
ago got later call up papers. The usual mess of gov. offices.
toichen:
%The fact that if the parents protested violently in the hospital the
%children wre brought back to them.
%There is far far more, go to any Teimani person in the street and
%chances are he will know of a child that went missing for no apparent
%reason.
Michael:
There are those teimanim who feel like that, by far not all of them.
It is always hard to accept death and if there are rumours one tries
to cling to them. As to any teimani in the street, I do not know how
many teimanim you know, I live in Rehovot, a city with a huge teimani
community, and I do know a great number of teimanim quite well.
All the above does not claim that there have been no cases at all
of children removed under false pretenses from there parents, but
these
were relatively rare exceptions, and of course should not have
happened.
And finally the most amazing thing of all, you admit that some
Teimanin were abducted from their parents, so it would seem the only
difference between you and me, would be quantitative and not
qualitative.
toichen
CreedmoorChronicles
leader of the Neturei Karta, who, while supported by Satmar in the US and
while agreeing with Satmar (and even more militant than Satmar) regarding
Zionism, are a separate and most definitely non-Chassidic group (note that
almost all haredim in Jerusalem wear what many commonly refer to as
Chassidic garb). The notorious Moishe Hirsch, minister of Jewish affairs in
the Arafat PA cabinet, is a member in not very good standing of Neturei
Karta (he has been excommunicated for going way too far); he is most
certainly NOT Chassidic in practice. And Yossele Schumacher's grandfather
was NOT Satmar either - as I had said before, I can't say for sure that he
was connected with Breslov as I had heard, but he was an old yishuv
Yerushalmi.
As for Rabbi Heilbron or whatever his name is in the Shai Fhima case, he
acted alone and not on behalf of Satmar or anyone else.
I, too, can distinguish between Satmar and the others - and especially in
Yerushalayim where there are so many groups and subgroups, the distinctions
between various non and anti-Zionist communities are wide indeed.
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
N. Samuel R.
Friday and 93 mins. after this time on Saturday. Explanation available upon
request. Thank you.]
I am once again most grateful and appreciative to Ian for defending Satmar
against unfair attacks. It should be noted that Ian's background, ideology and
lifestyle are all quite far from Satmar, making it highly unlikely for him to
harbor any personal favorable bias that could cloud his objectivity.
It must be noted and considered that Abe Kohen has demonstrated a distinct
contempt for and bias against Satmar, as evidenced in many posts of his. Just
over a year ago, Mr. Kohen called Satmar "anti-Semitic" and insisted that they
were no different from Neturei Karta , despite both myself and Micha Berger
refuting this claim. Several people defended Satmar against Mr. Kohen's smears,
including Micha Berger and Harry Weiss, both of whom are ideologically the
opposite of Satmar in many areas.
I reply specifically below.
"CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message
news:9jr9cf$179ep$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
> Sorry - inaccuracy here. "Reb" Amram Blau was NOT a Satmarer!
Correct.
> He was the
> leader of the Neturei Karta, who, while supported by Satmar in the US and
> while agreeing with Satmar (and even more militant than Satmar) regarding
> Zionism, are a separate [snip]
It must be noted that the Neturei Karta of today is not the same as the
original Netrurei Karta, which was founded by Rav Avram Blau, z'l, a righteous
and holy man who had an extraordinary love of and concern for all Jews. I have
copied below some excerpts form a brief biography of R' Blau that illustrate
this. While it is true that R' Amrom was a highly controversial zealous figure,
he did NOT condone the type of collaboration with Arab murderers that today's NK
engages in.
Satmar does NOT and NEVER HAS aligned themselves with Arab murderers in any way,
shape or form and the holy Grand Rabbi of Satmar, of blessed memory, denounced
and distanced himself from NK over this issue and refused to meet with Yassir
Arafat, ym"sh.
>And Yossele Schumacher's grandfather
> was NOT Satmar either - as I had said before, I can't say for sure that he
> was connected with Breslov as I had heard, but he was an old yishuv
> Yerushalmi.
>
> As for Rabbi Heilbron or whatever his name is in the Shai Fhima case, he
> acted alone and not on behalf of Satmar or anyone else.
>
> I, too, can distinguish between Satmar and the others - and especially in
> Yerushalayim where there are so many groups and subgroups, the distinctions
> between various non and anti-Zionist communities are wide indeed.
Very true.
Dear Fellow SCJMer,
The following is a draft of a post I want to make to
soc.culture.jewish.moderated. Please let me know any comments or advice that you
may have. Thank you very much. Gut Shabbos and if we don't merit to see a Yom
Tov , an easy fast.
Sincerely,
N. Samuel R.
_______________________________________________________________________
The following are some selected excerpts from a biography of R' Amram Blau that
does not appear to be copyrighted.
___________________________________________
> Reb Amram and his wife had an open home. Jews of all stripes came there to
> receive hot meals - and healthy doses of encouragement.
------------------
> Reb Amram was also like a father to the many poor Jews who were left without
> any family to take care of them. A man with a highly contagious disease once
> found his way to Reb Amram's home. Despite the danger to his own health, Reb
> Amram took care of this sick man as though he was his own child. He
> continued with his chesed toward this man even after the man passed away,
> personally seeing to all the funeral arrangements.
-------------------
> Reb Amram accorded great honor to all the poor and lonely souls who made
> their way to his home. On Pesach, the beggars were seated at the head of the
> table for the seder, while his children were placed at the other end.
---------------
> Reb Amram was only able to do such great chessed because he had the full
> support of his rebbetzin, Hinda, who shared his boundless love for others.
-----------------
>Every Shabbos he called out "Shabbos,
> Shabbos" to the passing cars. But contrary to public opinion, this cry was
> not a cry of hate; it was a cry of pain upon seeing Hashem's holy day
> desecrated.
> The Chazon Ish once came to visit Reb Amram while he was imprisoned for
> protesting chillul Shabbos. One of the Chazan Ish's talmidim was surprised
> that the elderly gadol would travel all the way from Bnei Brak to
> Yerushalayim to visit Reb Amram.
>
> "Shabbos itself is sitting in prison," the Chazon Ish told him, "so how
> could I not go to visit?"
---------------------------
> A newspaper reporter once commented: "I am not a part of Reb Amram's group
> nor do I hold of his ideals. I am not religious, and I do not cover my head.
> But one thing I am sure of: if I were ever to be in trouble, I would turn to
> Reb Amram for help. He would be willing to give me whatever I needed - even
> the shirt off his back.
>
> "I remember," continued the reporter, "that during the 1948 war, Reb Amram
> endangered his own life and brought food to a nonreligious family that lived
> next to the border. They were cut off from the rest of Jewish neighborhoods
> for several days and it was only because of Reb Amram that they had food to
> eat."
---------------------
> Reb Amram loved his fellow Jews, and he always tried to find ways to draw
> them closer to him and to Hashem. Once, he traveled to Tel Aviv to protest
> the desecration of an ancient grave that was discovered when foundations for
> a new road were being built.
>
> When Reb Amram arrived in Tel Aviv, he asked permission to convert the small
> hut that was used as an office for the workers into a temporary shul. The
> workers graciously allowed him and the other protestors to use the hut for
> davening. Reb Amram, of course, invited them to join their minyanim.
>
> "I do not know how to daven," said one worker, a recent immigrant from
> Bulgaria.
>
> "It is possible to daven in any language," replied Reb Amram.
>
> "But I have never worn tefillin," continued the worker. "My father, as well,
> never put on tefillin nor did I receive a pair for my bar mitzva."
>
> "So today," answered Reb Amram, "will be your bar mitzva."
>
> "If the rav would like to help me put on tefillin," said the worker, "I
> would be happy to wear them."
>
> That day Reb Amram not only succeeded in preventing the desecration of an
> ancient grave, but he also brought a Jew back to his roots.
------------------------------
> According to Reb Yehuda Leib, the policemen "really loved Reb Amram because
> they realized that he cared for them. He never hated them, but when he
> protested, he was crying in pain over the wrongs he saw."
--------------
> Because Reb Amram was an important public figure, many people came to ask
> for his advice. Reb Amram thought carefully before anwering their questions
> and would often turn to his beloved seforim to find out what the gedolim of
> previous generations advised in similar situations. He had incredible
> patience and would listen for hours as people explained their difficulties
> in great detail.
--------------------
> Zalman Shazar davened every Rosh Hashana in one of the anti-Zionist shuls in
> Meah Shearim. When he later became president of Israel, the gabbai of the
> shul turned to Reb Amram to ask him how to handle the situation. A large
> percentage of the members of the shul felt that it would be an affront to
> their ideals if Shazar, now the president of the secular state of Israel,
> would pray in their shul.
>
> Reb Amram, however, told the gabbai that the members of the shul were wrong.
>
> "Of course you must allow Zalman Shazar to pray in your shul," he said. "He
> is a Jew and a Jew is allowed to daven in shul."
>
> Reb Amram, however, warned the gabbai that he and the other shul members
> should not accord Shazar any extra honor because of his new position.
> Rather, they should treat him exactly the same as any other Jew who came to
> pray in their shul on Rosh Hashana.
--------------------
>"While we were living in Bnei Brak," wrote Rebbetzin Ruth, "I met some of
> the mentally ill people that used to come regularly to my husband's home in
> Yerushalayim. My husband received them graciously, even though it was very
> difficult for him
---------------------
>There was one highly emotional bochur that would often come to visit Reb
> Amram, and each time he came, Reb Amram and his rebbetzin would become
> exhausted from simply having him in the house. One day, after he had
> finally gone home, Reb Amram turned to his rebbetzin and sighed, "When this
> boy is here, his elderly parents are finally able to have a bit of rest."
----------------------------------
> Reb Amram and his second rebbetzin helped many converts on their path to
> Torah. One day, in 1973, a young man from France arrived on Reb Amram's
> doorstep. He had walked all the way from the airport to Reb Amram's home in
> Yerushalayim, and immediately informed the rebbetzin that that he had come
> to Eretz Yisroel to convert.
>
> Reb Amram took the young man under his wing and helped him with the
> conversion process. Eventually, Reb Amram found him a shidduch and married
> him off as though he was his own son. The young couple felt so close to Reb
> Amram that they named one of their daughters Shaindel after Reb Amram's
> mother, and after Reb Amram's passing, they named one of their sons Amram in
> his memory.
------------------
> Reb Amram was able to help many young men become baalei teshuvos through his
> deep love for them, which was apparent to all.
----------------
>A large group of policemen came to Reb Amram's funeral. Suddenly, the chief
> of the police department approached the coffin. "Rebbe," he sobbed, "I beg
> your forgiveness for all the pain I have caused you throughout the years.
> Reb Amram, you were a tzaddik. Forgive me."
> May his memory be a blessing.
Abe Kohen
"N. Samuel R." <n_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9jst37$1g2of$1...@ID-67534.news.dfncis.de...
> I am once again most grateful and appreciative to Ian for defending Satmar
> against unfair attacks. It should be noted that Ian's background, ideology
and
> lifestyle are all quite far from Satmar, making it highly unlikely for him
to
> harbor any personal favorable bias that could cloud his objectivity.
>
> It must be noted and considered that Abe Kohen has demonstrated a distinct
> contempt for and bias against Satmar, as evidenced in many posts of his.
Just
> over a year ago, Mr. Kohen called Satmar "anti-Semitic" and insisted that
they
> were no different from Neturei Karta , despite both myself and Micha
Berger
> refuting this claim. Several people defended Satmar against Mr. Kohen's
smears,
> including Micha Berger and Harry Weiss, both of whom are ideologically the
> opposite of Satmar in many areas.
Neturei Karta is to Satmar as Tanzim is to Fatah.
>
> I reply specifically below.
>
> "CreedmoorChronicles" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote in message
> news:9jr9cf$179ep$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
> > Sorry - inaccuracy here. "Reb" Amram Blau was NOT a Satmarer!
>
> Correct.
>
> > He was the
> > leader of the Neturei Karta, who, while supported by Satmar in the US
and
> > while agreeing with Satmar (and even more militant than Satmar)
regarding
> > Zionism, are a separate [snip]
>
> It must be noted that the Neturei Karta of today is not the same as the
> original Netrurei Karta, which was founded by Rav Avram Blau, z'l, a
righteous
> and holy man who had an extraordinary love of and concern for all Jews. I
have
> copied below some excerpts form a brief biography of R' Blau that
illustrate
> this. While it is true that R' Amrom was a highly controversial zealous
figure,
> he did NOT condone the type of collaboration with Arab murderers that
today's NK
> engages in.
Replace Neturei Karta with Hizbollah, and Rev Amram with Sheik Yassin. The
both support bikkur cholim and chesed within their own communities. They
both call for the destruction of the State of Israel. And neither one of
them is anti-Semitic.
Abe
Tisha B'av, 9:40 am EDT
CreedmoorChronicles
> Neturei Karta is to Satmar as Tanzim is to Fatah.
Sorry, this is incorrect. Neturei Karta is to Satmar as a lion is to a bear,
perhaps. Both are similar in their anti-Zionist ideology, but they are very
different from each other in other ways.
>
>
> Replace Neturei Karta with Hizbollah, and Rev Amram with Sheik Yassin. The
> both support bikkur cholim and chesed within their own communities. They
> both call for the destruction of the State of Israel. And neither one of
> them is anti-Semitic.
Now it seems that you are confusing Neturei Karta of then with Neturei Karta
of today, and in particular the views of extremists such as Moishe Hirsch
and an individual who is actually not NK and to whom I refer as the Admou"r
meCreedmoor. NK and Satmar never called for the violent destruction of the
state of Israel in the way the Arab haters do. I have no idea what Hirsch or
the Admou"r call for; in any case they are on the lunatic fringe even among
the anti-Zionists.
Ian
toichen
> both support bikkur cholim and chesed within their own communities. They
> both call for the destruction of the State of Israel. And neither one of
> them is anti-Semitic.
>
> Abe
This is out and out libel, Rav Amram never believed in murder or
maiming, or driving the Jews out of Israel.
Hasinah mekalkeles es hashrua.
toichen
CreedmoorChronicles
> Rabbi Meshullam, the Teimani Rav who was very vocal on this issue and one
of
> the people who revived interest in the case a few years ago and who is now
> in prison for illegal possession of fire arms, was asked by the journalist
> Barry Chamish
Hate to resort to ad hominem, but you have 2 doubtful sources here. R' Uzi
Meshullam is generally regarded as a dangerous fruitcake who has gone too
far, and as for Barry Chamish, his UFO and space alien theories discredit
him completely.
Ian
Fiona
Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
>> > Probably, but the Teimanim of Kiryat Yoel are infinitely better off
than
>> > they were in Yemen, and Satmar are the ONLY people willing and able to
>bring
>> > Jews out of Yemen at the present time. The good they are doing outways
>the
>> > negative side that many in your camp like make into an issue.
>
>
>What do you, Fiona, mean that ONLY Satmar are willing and able. What's the
>basis for this?
I cannot offer you any documented proof from external sources, but: As I
understand it (from people closely involved in the London cases), the
Yemenite authorities grant exit visas to a handful of Jews each year on the
condition that they do not go to Israel (the families that remain are in big
trouble if the Yemeni authorities discover that those who have left have
travelled to Israel). The Yemenite Authorities trust Satmar's anti-Zionist
stance to assure that and the fact that they are Haredi bolsters that trust
(like it or not, Muslims have more respect for religious Jews than
non-religious Jews, but to understand that you must understand the
conditions of the Dhimma. This is not the place to explain it.). Satmar also
arrange for these Yemenite Jews to enter the US or UK not as refugees but as
students at Satmar Yeshivot, that also suits the Yemenite authorities as it
means they do not get accused of persecuting Jews, which as a rule is true.
So who else could bring these Yemenite Jews out? The State of Israel, or the
Jewish Agency? - No chance, they wouldn't even get near a Yemenite Embassy
door, that's even if the Yemenite Jews would consider having anything to do
with the Jewish Agency (news of the trials and tribulations of the previous
generation of Aliyot has reached Yemen you know, Israel does not have a very
good reputation amonst the remaining Jews, and there is no Zionist ferver
there anymore). So who else could do it? Lubavitch? Breslov? - most other
Haredi groups are content to leave it to Satmar, some even make donations.
Fiona
Fiona
CreedmoorChronicles wrote in message
<9jm8eb$1c4l$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de>...
>
>
>> Rabbi Meshullam, the Teimani Rav who was very vocal on this issue and one
>of
>> the people who revived interest in the case a few years ago and who is
now
>> in prison for illegal possession of fire arms, was asked by the
journalist
>> Barry Chamish
>
>Hate to resort to ad hominem, but you have 2 doubtful sources here. R' Uzi
>Meshullam is generally regarded as a dangerous fruitcake who has gone too
>far, and as for Barry Chamish, his UFO and space alien theories discredit
>him completely.
I merely stated he had said it, I didn't give it any credence.
Fiona
Fiona
Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
>
>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:996006573.13618.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote in message <2001Jul2...@mm.huji.ac.il>...
>> >"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
snip
>> >>> What Satmar is now doing to the Teimanim is just as unforgivable.
>> >>
>> >> How can you equate the two? What do you think Satmar are doing,
selling
>> >> Teimani children to the Americans as radiation test guinea pigs?
>> >
>> >What are you talking about?
>>
>> Rabbi Meshullam, the Teimani Rav who was very vocal on this issue and one
>of
>> the people who revived interest in the case a few years ago and who is
now
>> in prison for illegal possession of fire arms, was asked by the
journalist
>> Barry Chamish recently why, if he knows who the 4500 kidnapped children
>> were, doesn't he just reunite them with their parents. He was quoted as
>> replying along the lines of 'I can't, they are dead. They were sold to
the
>> Americans for radiation testing.'
>>
>> Outlandish? Yes. True? G-d knows.
>
>I'm surprised that you resort to such a cheap trick to imply that there
>might be some element of truth to Meshulam's shenanigans.
I have seen proof neither for nor against this accusation, I merely reported
a comment by a journalist as you did to start this thread.
>The best way to describe Meshulam is to call him the Al Sharpton of Israel.
Then perhaps it's about time the left wing in Israel started to grovel to
Meshullam like the Democrats in the US have been "kissing the Ring" of "the
Rev." Perhaps they could start by giving him the same sort of airtime
Sharpton gets. Or does freedom of speech in Israel only apply to the left?
>>
>> I mentioned it here because Abe was making an unqualified and
>> unsubstantiated accusation about Satmar's actions being "just as
>> unforgivable." My reply implied that to make a moral equivalence Abe's
>> accusation must be at least as crazy as this.
>
>Having lived among the Satmar in Williamsburg, being fluent in both
>Hungarian and Yiddish, listening to what they say when they think no one
>understands is quite an education.
>
>Why don't you ask Yosselle Shuchmacher, a nice Ashkenazi, kidnapped by his
>grandfather and the Satmars, what it was like living among the Satmar in
>Williamsburg? I recall an interview in the Israeli papers maybe three years
>ago.
>
>Or Shai Fhima?
What have they got to do with the price of eggs?
It appears that you don't actually give a damn about the Teimanim, you are
just looking for reasons to attack the Satmar and any other Haredi group
that gets dragged into the conversation.
So let me recap: you posted an article about one Yemenite Jew who had an axe
to grind against Satmar. That aricle also contained the line "Some [Yemenite
Jews] express tremendous gratitude to the Satmars" which you completely
ignore when you accuse Satmar of committing acts "just as unforgivable" as
Mapai in the 50s and 60s. You do not even state what you believe Satmar's
unforgivable sins are. Then you bring two Ashkenazi complaints against
Satmar, as if they justify your comments about how the Yemenites are
treated.
The prosecution has supplied no evidence and has not created a case against
Satmar, M'lud. I rest.
Fiona
CreedmoorChronicles
> >The best way to describe Meshulam is to call him the Al Sharpton of
Israel.
No, the Al Sharpton of Israel would be Moshe Feiglin and his Manhigut
Yehudit/Zo Artzeinu crowd. Meshullam would be the LaRouche of Israel.
Ian
meirm...@erols.com
<fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> posted:
>
>Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
><snip>
>>> > Probably, but the Teimanim of Kiryat Yoel are infinitely better off
>than
>>> > they were in Yemen, and Satmar are the ONLY people willing and able to
>>bring
>>> > Jews out of Yemen at the present time. The good they are doing outways
>>the
>>> > negative side that many in your camp like make into an issue.
>>
>>
>>What do you, Fiona, mean that ONLY Satmar are willing and able. What's the
>>basis for this?
>
>I cannot offer you any documented proof from external sources, but: As I
>understand it (from people closely involved in the London cases), the
>Yemenite authorities grant exit visas to a handful of Jews each year on the
>condition that they do not go to Israel (the families that remain are in big
>trouble if the Yemeni authorities discover that those who have left have
>travelled to Israel). The Yemenite Authorities trust Satmar's anti-Zionist
>stance to assure that and the fact that they are Haredi bolsters that trust
>(like it or not, Muslims have more respect for religious Jews than
>non-religious Jews, but to understand that you must understand the
>conditions of the Dhimma. This is not the place to explain it.).
I'd be very interested, and to the extent that it afects our lives, I
think this is the place. If we were discussing farming, all the
weather problems and parasites that farmers face would be part of the
topic. How can farmers, how can we live our lives without dealing
with our problems, without trying to understand them?
>atmar also
>arrange for these Yemenite Jews to enter the US or UK not as refugees but as
>students at Satmar Yeshivot, that also suits the Yemenite authorities as it
>means they do not get accused of persecuting Jews, which as a rule is true.
>
>So who else could bring these Yemenite Jews out? The State of Israel, or the
>Jewish Agency? - No chance, they wouldn't even get near a Yemenite Embassy
>door, that's even if the Yemenite Jews would consider having anything to do
>with the Jewish Agency (news of the trials and tribulations of the previous
>generation of Aliyot has reached Yemen you know, Israel does not have a very
>good reputation amonst the remaining Jews, and there is no Zionist ferver
>there anymore). So who else could do it? Lubavitch? Breslov? - most other
>Haredi groups are content to leave it to Satmar, some even make donations.
>
>
>Fiona
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether