Arthur's Perfect Christmas (On-Topic Jewish Content)
Dan Kimmel
Thanksgiving night prime time "Arthur" special in which the cartoon aardvark
celebrates his Christian holiday. However Jewish families with young Arthur
fans may wish to tune in, because the show reveals -- in one of the major
storylines in the hour -- that Francine is Jewish and celebrates a
traditional Chanukah. (If you don't have kids, never mind.)
It's a cute show in which Francine's friend Muffy can't understand why
Francine isn't at her Christmas party. When she learns that Francine is
Jewish she asks what her family does on Christmas Day. Go to the movies,
replies Francine. :)
Arthur fans may also be interested to learn that author Marc Brown is a Jew
by choice and his daughter was bat mitzvahed in the past year.
I don't know if this warrants further discussion, but I thought parents
would want to know.
Susan Cohen
Dan Kimmel wrote:
> I have an article coming out this coming week (or next week) about the
> Thanksgiving night prime time "Arthur" special in which the cartoon aardvark
> celebrates his Christian holiday. However Jewish families with young Arthur
> fans may wish to tune in, because the show reveals -- in one of the major
> storylines in the hour -- that Francine is Jewish and celebrates a traditional
> Chanukah.
This is interesting because Francine is the very antithesis of a JAP -
she's a tomboy with a poor family (Her father is a "sanitation
engineer" who can give her a new bike only by cobbling one
together from old bike parts).
> (If you don't have kids, never mind.)
>
> It's a cute show in which Francine's friend Muffy can't understand why
> Francine isn't at her Christmas party. When she learns that Francine is
> Jewish she asks what her family does on Christmas Day. Go to the movies,
> replies Francine. :)
>
> Arthur fans may also be interested to learn that author Marc Brown is a Jew by
> choice and his daughter was bat mitzvahed in the past year.
>
> I don't know if this warrants further discussion, but I thought parents
> would want to know.
I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
I didn't expect her to be Jewish, so I haven't checked to see if she
eats pepperoni pizza when the others do, and whther she takes her
lunch to school or eats what the school provides. I do know she
wears pants, so maybe they're Reform??
(Before anyone asks, *yes* I have a small child!!)
Susan
meirm...@erols.com
Cohen <fla...@hers.com> posted:
>
>I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
>*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
Maybe she wasn't until the season arrived and they thought about how
they would handle it. So they picked one and made her Jewish. Did
they have religious issues before? I don't watch the show.
Better than two other shows, Frasier, esp. within Cheers, whose
eventual wife was very very annoying and Jewish, but people probably
complained so she they never mentioned again that she was Jewish.
And Darma and Greg, where she was Jewish and intermarried also. I
stopped watching because of this and other tastelessness, but somehow
I have the feeling they didn't mention her being Jewish much past the
first episode.
>I didn't expect her to be Jewish, so I haven't checked to see if she
>eats pepperoni pizza when the others do, and whther she takes her
>lunch to school or eats what the school provides.
mei...@QQQerols.com
e-mail by removing QQQ
Binyamin Dissen
:>Dan Kimmel wrote:
I would expect the character to be as Jewish as your typical intermarried
assimilated Hollywood writer.
They feel a little out of place at Xmas (haven't yet gotten over the hump to
reach the other side of the road) but are otherwise indistinguishable from
non-Jews.
If I recall in my ancient memory, wasn't a similar "Jewish" character in
30-something?
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@netvision.net.il>
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
Jonathan J. Baker
>> I have an article coming out this coming week (or next week) about the
>> Thanksgiving night prime time "Arthur" special in which the cartoon aardvark
>> celebrates his Christian holiday. However Jewish families with young Arthur
>> fans may wish to tune in, because the show reveals -- in one of the major
>> storylines in the hour -- that Francine is Jewish and celebrates a traditional
>> Chanukah.
>This is interesting because Francine is the very antithesis of a JAP -
>she's a tomboy with a poor family (Her father is a "sanitation
>engineer" who can give her a new bike only by cobbling one
>together from old bike parts).
So? Only JAPs are true Jewish women? I think of Francine as a
friend I grew up with in school, who was also a kickball fan. Last
I heard (years ago) she was a drummer and drum teacher.
Actually, I've long thought of Francine as black, despite the name
("Frensky"). The books seem to bear it out. In the early books,
where the characters were drawn more realistically, Francine and Muffy
were almost identical monkeys. Arthur, by the way, looked like an aardvark,
not like a chipmunk.
In the later books, where the characters became more stylized, and it
became clear that Muffy was from a rich family and Francine from a poor
one, their colors changed, so that Muffy would be beige/yellow and Francine
brown, reinforcing the stereotype of black poor, white rich.
>> It's a cute show in which Francine's friend Muffy can't understand why
>> Francine isn't at her Christmas party. When she learns that Francine is
>> Jewish she asks what her family does on Christmas Day. Go to the movies,
>> replies Francine. :)
>> Arthur fans may also be interested to learn that author Marc Brown is a Jew by
>> choice and his daughter was bat mitzvahed in the past year.
>> I don't know if this warrants further discussion, but I thought parents
>> would want to know.
>I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
>*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
Right. Years before Rugrats started doing Passover and Chanukah
specials, it was clear that Tommy was Jewish: his mother's parents
had a Menorah on a bookshelf in their house.
--
Jonathan Baker | Marches-wan, marches-two,
jjb...@panix.com | March the months all through and through
Web page update: Vidui, Siyum on Moed. http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/
Dan Kimmel
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
news:3A0E1C3A...@hers.com...
> I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> *never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
> I didn't expect her to be Jewish, so I haven't checked to see if she
> eats pepperoni pizza when the others do, and whther she takes her
> lunch to school or eats what the school provides. I do know she
> wears pants, so maybe they're Reform??
Up until this special she has never had any religion in so far as the TV
shows. What happened was that when they decided to do this Christmas
special, they decided to show a variety of holiday observances. The head
writer of the TV show told me that they understood they would have to "out"
everyone's religion, even though it had never been an issue before. (The
Brain, for example, celebrates Kwaanza.)
While there will be no further mention of it this season, because all the
shows are done, one of the questions I asked was whether we will see further
reference to this in the future. (On the show they make a point of
referring to past occurrences, and of keeping things consistent.) Everyone
from Marc Brown (the author) to the head writer and the executive producer
of the show said that now that they have made Francine Jewish, there will be
future reference to it, either in passing, or perhaps in a story centering
on her. Brown said he was also open to working it into a future book.
It's important to remember that the show isn't ABOUT religion or the
religious beliefs and practices of the characters, so don't expect Francine
to get into a debate on whether women should be counted for a minyan. :)
Dan Kimmel
<meirm...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:l9ds0t046iqcqalh5...@4ax.com...
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 12 Nov 2000 05:07:54 GMT Susan
> Cohen <fla...@hers.com> posted:
>
> >
> >I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> >*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
>
> Maybe she wasn't until the season arrived and they thought about how
> they would handle it. So they picked one and made her Jewish. Did
> they have religious issues before? I don't watch the show.
>
> Better than two other shows, Frasier, esp. within Cheers, whose
> eventual wife was very very annoying and Jewish, but people probably
> complained so she they never mentioned again that she was Jewish.
That's not really fair, because that was part of the joke. After all,
Frasier is very annoying and WASPish. They deserved each other. :)
Since they had a son together his being Jewish does come up occasionally (as
in a "Cheers" episode about the baby's bris.)
Susan Cohen
"Jonathan J. Baker" wrote:
> In <3A0E1C3A...@hers.com> Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> writes:
> >Dan Kimmel wrote:
>
> >> I have an article coming out this coming week (or next week) about the
> >> Thanksgiving night prime time "Arthur" special in which the cartoon aardvark
> >> celebrates his Christian holiday. However Jewish families with young Arthur
> >> fans may wish to tune in, because the show reveals -- in one of the major
> >> storylines in the hour -- that Francine is Jewish and celebrates a traditional
> >> Chanukah.
>
> >This is interesting because Francine is the very antithesis of a JAP -
> >she's a tomboy with a poor family (Her father is a "sanitation
> >engineer" who can give her a new bike only by cobbling one
> >together from old bike parts).
>
> So? Only JAPs are true Jewish women?
Uh, no - that was my point!!! Hollywood usually only does
JAPS when they're doing Jewish women.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Dan Kimmel wrote:
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3A0E1C3A...@hers.com...
> > I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> > *never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
> > I didn't expect her to be Jewish, so I haven't checked to see if she
> > eats pepperoni pizza when the others do, and whther she takes her
> > lunch to school or eats what the school provides. I do know she
> > wears pants, so maybe they're Reform??
>
> Up until this special she has never had any religion in so far as the TV
> shows. What happened was that when they decided to do this Christmas
> special, they decided to show a variety of holiday observances.
Meir came up with this on his own, and I said it was possible,
so he guessed right!!
> The head writer of the TV show told me that they understood they would have to
> "out" everyone's religion, even though it had never been an issue before.
> (The Brain, for example, celebrates Kwaanza.)
What makes "The Brain" any more AfAm than say, Francine??
I think she's darker than he is!! (Of course, why I am I nagging
*you* about it?)
> While there will be no further mention of it this season, because all the
> shows are done, one of the questions I asked was whether we will see further
> reference to this in the future. (On the show they make a point of
> referring to past occurrences, and of keeping things consistent.) Everyone
> from Marc Brown (the author) to the head writer and the executive producer of
> the show said that now that they have made Francine Jewish, there will be
> future reference to it, either in passing, or perhaps in a story centering on
> her. Brown said he was also open to working it into a future book.
>
> It's important to remember that the show isn't ABOUT religion or the
> religious beliefs and practices of the characters, so don't expect Francine
> to get into a debate on whether women should be counted for a minyan. :)
Oh, I know that. It's just that there are certain aspects of religion
that are a part of everyday life, and I'd like to know how many
details they're going to include from now on.
Susan
Susan Cohen
meirm...@erols.com wrote:
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 12 Nov 2000 05:07:54 GMT Susan
> Cohen <fla...@hers.com> posted:
>
> >
> >I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> >*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
>
> Maybe she wasn't until the season arrived and they thought about how
> they would handle it. So they picked one and made her Jewish.
*Very* possible!!
> Did
> they have religious issues before? I don't watch the show.
>
> Better than two other shows, Frasier, esp. within Cheers, whose
> eventual wife was very very annoying and Jewish, but people probably
> complained so she they never mentioned again that she was Jewish.
Of course, they also showed them raising their son Jewish (bris).
I didn't mind her being annoying because it wasn't in the obnoxious
"traditional Hollywood Jewish" way; she was annoying like other
people could be annoying.
> And Darma and Greg, where she was Jewish and intermarried also. I
> stopped watching because of this and other tastelessness, but somehow
> I have the feeling they didn't mention her being Jewish much past the
> first episode.
I've never watched the show - thanks for confirming my decision.
Susan
Dan Kimmel
"Binyamin Dissen" <post...@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:7qls0t816ssp0reg4...@4ax.com...
> On 12 Nov 2000 05:07:54 GMT Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> wrote:
> :>I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> :>*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
> :>I didn't expect her to be Jewish, so I haven't checked to see if she
> :>eats pepperoni pizza when the others do, and whther she takes her
> :>lunch to school or eats what the school provides. I do know she
> :>wears pants, so maybe they're Reform??
>
> I would expect the character to be as Jewish as your typical intermarried
> assimilated Hollywood writer.
And you would be wrong. The author of the book series is a Jew by choice
who lives in Massachusetts. Most of the writers live in Massachusetts or
New York. The point of making the character Jewish was not proselytize but
to show the different holiday observances amond the CARTOON CHARACTERS on a
CHILDREN'S SHOW.
> They feel a little out of place at Xmas (haven't yet gotten over the hump
to
> reach the other side of the road) but are otherwise indistinguishable from
> non-Jews.
You couldn't be more wrong. The book author's daughter was recently Bat
Mitzvahed.
> If I recall in my ancient memory, wasn't a similar "Jewish" character in
> 30-something?
Why are you comparing a prime time adult series with a children's cartoon
show?
Dan Kimmel
>
>
> meirm...@erols.com wrote:
>
> > In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 12 Nov 2000 05:07:54 GMT Susan
> > Cohen <fla...@hers.com> posted:
> >
> > >
> > >I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> > >*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
> >
> > Maybe she wasn't until the season arrived and they thought about how
> > they would handle it. So they picked one and made her Jewish.
>
> *Very* possible!!
>
> > Did
> > they have religious issues before? I don't watch the show.
> >
> > Better than two other shows, Frasier, esp. within Cheers, whose
> > eventual wife was very very annoying and Jewish, but people probably
> > complained so she they never mentioned again that she was Jewish.
>
> Of course, they also showed them raising their son Jewish (bris).
> I didn't mind her being annoying because it wasn't in the obnoxious
> "traditional Hollywood Jewish" way; she was annoying like other
> people could be annoying.
All too often being Jewish for a TV character means an episode about either
a.) intermarriage or b.) anti-semitism. That's what made this interesting.
Another great exception was the '90s science fiction series "Babylon 5"
where one of the characters was a Russian Jew. In one episode her father
dies and several episodes later her rabbi (played by Theodore Bikel!) shows
up asking if she sat shiva. It was a wonderful episode, and what made it
especially ironic was that the creator and chief writer for the series is an
avowed atheist. Asked by fans how he could handle religious issues so
sympathetically (he did one on the Catholic view of sin and grace as well)
he replied that while he may not believe, religion has been around for
thousands of years, and he saw no reason that it would disappear in the next
few centuries.
abe kohen
>
> > In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 12 Nov 2000 05:07:54 GMT Susan
> > Cohen <fla...@hers.com> posted:
> >
> > >
> > >I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there is
> > >*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
> >
> > Maybe she wasn't until the season arrived and they thought about how
> > they would handle it. So they picked one and made her Jewish.
>
> *Very* possible!!
>
> > Did
> > they have religious issues before? I don't watch the show.
> >
> > Better than two other shows, Frasier, esp. within Cheers, whose
> > eventual wife was very very annoying and Jewish, but people probably
> > complained so she they never mentioned again that she was Jewish.
>
> Of course, they also showed them raising their son Jewish (bris).
> I didn't mind her being annoying because it wasn't in the obnoxious
> "traditional Hollywood Jewish" way; she was annoying like other
> people could be annoying.
You mean unlike Feyvush Finkel in Picket Fences, or even Feyvush in Boston
Common.
Abe
Hadass Eviatar
>
> "Binyamin Dissen" <post...@dissensoftware.com> wrote
> > assimilated Hollywood writer.
>
> And you would be wrong. The author of the book series is a Jew by choice
> who lives in Massachusetts. Most of the writers live in Massachusetts or
> New York. The point of making the character Jewish was not proselytize but
> to show the different holiday observances amond the CARTOON CHARACTERS on a
> CHILDREN'S SHOW.
Cool, I didn't know that Marc Brown was Jewish (by choice or otherwise).
BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely
episode where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember) turns
out to be Jewish - but they discover this because she refuses to eat
some bread brought in by another character, and says she'll do it in a
week's time. He is insulted and things deteriorate from there, until she
finally explains about Pesach. I thought it was very well done.
Kol tuv, Hadass
--
Hadass Eviatar
Winnipeg, Canada
http://www.superhwy.net/~eviatar
Keep me far from petty thoughts and petty pride, far from anger,
impatience, despair, gossip and all bad traits - Yom Kippur liturgy.
Hadass Eviatar
> It's important to remember that the show isn't ABOUT religion or the
> religious beliefs and practices of the characters, so don't expect Francine
> to get into a debate on whether women should be counted for a minyan. :)
That's a shame - I think I can imagine what her standpoint would be 8-).
Susan Cohen
abe kohen wrote:
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3A0ECF57...@hers.com...
> >
> > I didn't mind her being annoying because it wasn't in the obnoxious
> > "traditional Hollywood Jewish" way; she was annoying like other
> > people could be annoying.
>
> You mean unlike Feyvush Finkel in Picket Fences, or even Feyvush in Boston
> Common.
Maybe I would if I actually watched those shows... :-}
Susan
Susan S
Kimmel" <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net>:
I thought it was amusing that the person playing that character
is named Claudia Christian.
Susan Silberstein
maxine in ri
> Francine is a hippo.
>
> I have no idea what kind of surgery she underwent. My guess is she just
> wanted to look more like the wealthy Crosswires.
>
> Sadly, we see many a Jewish girl undergo plastic surgery in an attempt
> to more closely resemble an aesthetic ideal invented by WASPs. It's sad
> to see yet another example perpetuated in the stories we read our
> children.
Are we reading too much into this? The characters have become
more appealing to the child's eye, i.e. rounder, with big
eyes,button noses, and other cute features. I doubt strongly
that they've undergone plastic surgery to water down their
looks, altho it has done good for their popularity. Kids like
pictures of real animals, especially their babies, which are
generally rounder, with big eyes,button noses, and other cute
features. When it comes to drawings, they'll go for the baby
look.
> Speaking of which, and going off on yet another tangent...
>
> What's this with "The Little Mermaid"? We're supposed to be happy the
> girl ignored her father's wishes, abandoned her people, and married
> someone who was not only from outside her faith, but didn't even know
> anything about Mermaid values?
>
> Is this something that we, as Jewish parents, should be exposing our
> children to?
That's Disney. Read your children the originals of these
Disneyfied stories, and you'll see morals. Such morals it'll
give you nightmares, let alone your children<g> My daughter
disliked the D version of LM, but loved the HC Anderson version,
where she dies in the end, when the prince leaves her for
another, more vocal female.
> -mi
>
> PS: It's humor, people.
Oops. I'm leaving my points, but am glad you're not serious. I
still don't know you all that well.
maxine in ri
Sheldon Glickler
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:8upe7a$qkp$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> On 13 Nov 2000 18:51:32 GMT, Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> : If you go to the ARTHUR website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/arthur) you
will
> : discover
> : that both Muffy and Francine are monkeys. Muffy's father, by the way,
sells
> : NEW cars.
>
> I beg to differ on the first point. Although I'm willing to admit that
> I could be wrong about Muffy's father's merchandise.
>
> In "Arthur's Glasses" a book I have read approximately 100 times (without
> exageration), the characters were still drawn far closer to the animals
> they are supposed to be. Arthur has a long anteater face, etc...
>
> Francine is a hippo.
>
> I have no idea what kind of surgery she underwent. My guess is she just
> wanted to look more like the wealthy Crosswires.
>
> Sadly, we see many a Jewish girl undergo plastic surgery in an attempt
> to more closely resemble an aesthetic ideal invented by WASPs. It's sad
> to see yet another example perpetuated in the stories we read our
> children.
>
>
> What's this with "The Little Mermaid"? We're supposed to be happy the
> girl ignored her father's wishes, abandoned her people, and married
> someone who was not only from outside her faith, but didn't even know
> anything about Mermaid values?
>
> Is this something that we, as Jewish parents, should be exposing our
> children to?
>
>
> PS: It's humor, people.
>
I know it is humor, but also consider the following:
Cinderella disobeyed her step-mother's wishes about going to the ball.
Jack disobeyed his mother and traded for beans (is that where the
expression comes from?)
The dish ran away with the spoon -- not even a saucer, no less.
BTW, when did the Arthur show come into being. The last I heard the rage
was Barney. I knew nothing about this show before this thread (no
grandchildren as of yet).
Shelly
Sheldon Glickler
"Susan S" <ot...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:ev4v0ts0gkqe9vfl4...@4ax.com...
> I thought it was amusing that the person playing that character
> is named Claudia Christian.
The most beautiful rendition I have ever heard of Kol Nidre was done each
year by Perry Como.
Shelly
Yitzchak Moran
>
> Dan Kimmel wrote:
>
> > The head writer of the TV show told me that they understood they would have to
> > "out" everyone's religion, even though it had never been an issue before.
> > (The Brain, for example, celebrates Kwaanza.)
>
> What makes "The Brain" any more AfAm than say, Francine??
> I think she's darker than he is!! (Of course, why I am I nagging
> *you* about it?)
Perhaps because Francine is quite clearly an ape of some sort (an
orangutan, perhaps?), and a not-uncommon insult by racist whites about
blacks is to compare them to monkeys et. al.?
Probably I'm reading too much into it.
--
Yitzchak Moran | "...for what reason was the School of Hillel entitled
Professional Dad | to have the law determined according to their rulings?
from the Home Office | Because they were kindly and humble, and because they
dou...@earthlink.net | studied their own rulings and those of Shammai..."
Susan Cohen
Hadass Eviatar wrote:
> BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely episode
> where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember)
Jodie (Jody?)
> turns out to be Jewish - but they discover this because she refuses to eat some
> bread brought in by another character, and says she'll do it in a week's time.
> He is insulted and things deteriorate from there, until she finally explains
> about Pesach. I thought it was very well done.
And then there was the one where the boy thought that her
menorah (chanukiah) would look *lovely* on his Xmas tree....
We taped that one for our little girl :-))
Susan
Dan Kimmel
>
>
> Dan Kimmel wrote:
>
> > It's important to remember that the show isn't ABOUT religion or the
> > religious beliefs and practices of the characters, so don't expect
Francine
> > to get into a debate on whether women should be counted for a minyan. :)
>
> Oh, I know that. It's just that there are certain aspects of religion
> that are a part of everyday life, and I'd like to know how many
> details they're going to include from now on.
Well, I highly doubt the Frensky family is frum, so don't expect a lot. My
guess would be a reference to a Passover seder, or perhaps a cousin's bar
mitzvah.
Susan Cohen
Yitzchak Moran wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Dan Kimmel wrote:
> >
> > > (The Brain, for example, celebrates Kwaanza.)
> >
> > What makes "The Brain" any more AfAm than say, Francine??
> > I think she's darker than he is!! (Of course, why I am I nagging
> > *you* about it?)
>
> Perhaps because Francine is quite clearly an ape of some sort (an
> orangutan, perhaps?), and a not-uncommon insult by racist whites about
> blacks is to compare them to monkeys et. al.?
>
> Probably I'm reading too much into it.
Oh, I can well imagine that they were pretty careful
not to have Kwanzaa celebrated by an ape!!
Susan
Sheldon Glickler
"abe kohen" <abek...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t0um2b2...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3A0ECF57...@hers.com...
> >
> >
> > meirm...@erols.com wrote:
> >
> > > In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 12 Nov 2000 05:07:54 GMT Susan
> > > Cohen <fla...@hers.com> posted:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >I confess to being a little disappointed to find this out, as there
is
> > > >*never* any other mention of Francine's Jewishness - of course,
> > >
> > > Maybe she wasn't until the season arrived and they thought about how
> > > they would handle it. So they picked one and made her Jewish.
> >
> > *Very* possible!!
> >
> > > Did
> > > they have religious issues before? I don't watch the show.
> > >
> > > Better than two other shows, Frasier, esp. within Cheers, whose
> > > eventual wife was very very annoying and Jewish, but people probably
> > > complained so she they never mentioned again that she was Jewish.
> >
> > Of course, they also showed them raising their son Jewish (bris).
> > I didn't mind her being annoying because it wasn't in the obnoxious
> > "traditional Hollywood Jewish" way; she was annoying like other
> > people could be annoying.
>
> You mean unlike Feyvush Finkel in Picket Fences, or even Feyvush in Boston
> Common.
>
> Abe
I liked Feyvush in Picket Fences. That character had heart. As to the
other, I think you mean "Boston Public". While that show is very good,
Feyvush is terrible character as comes across as a doddering, stupid old
man.
Shelly
Dan Kimmel
"Hadass Eviatar" <hevi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A0F6C51...@home.com...
> Dan Kimmel wrote:
> >
> > "Binyamin Dissen" <post...@dissensoftware.com> wrote
> > > I would expect the character to be as Jewish as your typical
intermarried
> > > assimilated Hollywood writer.
> >
> > And you would be wrong. The author of the book series is a Jew by
choice
> > who lives in Massachusetts. Most of the writers live in Massachusetts
or
> > New York. The point of making the character Jewish was not proselytize
but
> > to show the different holiday observances amond the CARTOON CHARACTERS
on a
> > CHILDREN'S SHOW.
>
> Cool, I didn't know that Marc Brown was Jewish (by choice or otherwise).
Neither did I, and I had interviewed him twice before. It was only in the
context of the character of Francine being revealed as Jewish did the
subject come up. He's a real nice guy, btw, who keeps a tight rein on the
marketing of Arthur. Obviously he wants to make a buck, and the public
television show needs the financing, but he said that as a parent he
remembers what they went through with Barney's image popping up everywhere,
and he carefully controls how Arthur is used. (He said he was stunned at
one potential licensee who wanted to put the Arthur characters on beer
glasses. He turned that right down.)
> BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely
> episode where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember) turns
> out to be Jewish - but they discover this because she refuses to eat
> some bread brought in by another character, and says she'll do it in a
> week's time. He is insulted and things deteriorate from there, until she
> finally explains about Pesach. I thought it was very well done.
There are some nice children's programs with Jewish themes, mostly around
Chanukah and Passover. The late Shari Lewis did two marvelous specials, and
I especially recommend the Passover one.
Dan Kimmel
Among the things they considered and decided against was making *Arthur*
Jewish, and having an atheist character.
Micha Berger
: Oh, I can well imagine that they were pretty careful
: not to have Kwanzaa celebrated by an ape!!
As the only ape in Arthur's class is Muffy Crosswire, wealthy daughter
of a used car salesman, it wasn't a likely choice anyway. Could you
picture all those connotations of bunko artist (yes, Marc Brown does
perpetuate stereotypes about used car salesmen) being associated with
a black character?
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287 - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l
Dan Kimmel
> On 13 Nov 2000 15:15:17 GMT, Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> wrote:
> : Oh, I can well imagine that they were pretty careful
> : not to have Kwanzaa celebrated by an ape!!
>
> As the only ape in Arthur's class is Muffy Crosswire, wealthy daughter
> of a used car salesman, it wasn't a likely choice anyway. Could you
> picture all those connotations of bunko artist (yes, Marc Brown does
> perpetuate stereotypes about used car salesmen) being associated with
> a black character?
If you go to the ARTHUR website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/arthur) you will
discover
that both Muffy and Francine are monkeys. Muffy's father, by the way, sells
NEW cars.
What I find more interesting is that by making Francine Jewish we have a
family that is working class where the character we focus on is the
tomboy/athlete of the gang. Certainly there are many Jews like that but it
is nice BREAK from stereotypes.
Micha Berger
: discover
: that both Muffy and Francine are monkeys. Muffy's father, by the way, sells
: NEW cars.
I beg to differ on the first point. Although I'm willing to admit that
I could be wrong about Muffy's father's merchandise.
In "Arthur's Glasses" a book I have read approximately 100 times (without
exageration), the characters were still drawn far closer to the animals
they are supposed to be. Arthur has a long anteater face, etc...
Francine is a hippo.
I have no idea what kind of surgery she underwent. My guess is she just
wanted to look more like the wealthy Crosswires.
Sadly, we see many a Jewish girl undergo plastic surgery in an attempt
to more closely resemble an aesthetic ideal invented by WASPs. It's sad
to see yet another example perpetuated in the stories we read our
children.
Speaking of which, and going off on yet another tangent...
What's this with "The Little Mermaid"? We're supposed to be happy the
girl ignored her father's wishes, abandoned her people, and married
someone who was not only from outside her faith, but didn't even know
anything about Mermaid values?
Is this something that we, as Jewish parents, should be exposing our
children to?
-mi
PS: It's humor, people.
--
Dan Kimmel
> On 13 Nov 2000 18:51:32 GMT, Dan Kimmel <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> : If you go to the ARTHUR website (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/arthur) you
will
> : discover
> : that both Muffy and Francine are monkeys. Muffy's father, by the way,
sells
> : NEW cars.
>
> I beg to differ on the first point. Although I'm willing to admit that
> I could be wrong about Muffy's father's merchandise.
>
> In "Arthur's Glasses" a book I have read approximately 100 times (without
> exageration), the characters were still drawn far closer to the animals
> they are supposed to be. Arthur has a long anteater face, etc...
>
> Francine is a hippo.
>
> I have no idea what kind of surgery she underwent. My guess is she just
> wanted to look more like the wealthy Crosswires.
The characters changed when they made the transition to TV and in fact had
been changing in the books for some time. Because it is so far off topic,
I'm going to e-mail you the brief description from the website in which Marc
Brown answers the question of who is what himself.
> Sadly, we see many a Jewish girl undergo plastic surgery in an attempt
> to more closely resemble an aesthetic ideal invented by WASPs. It's sad
> to see yet another example perpetuated in the stories we read our
> children.
I understand this is tongue in cheek, but realize that when the characters
were softened up (and Arthur lost his aardvark nose) it was long before it
was decided that Francine was Jewish which was done specifically for this
upcoming TV special. (BTW, the website also offers an "explanation" of what
happened to Arthur's nose that was sent to Marc Brown by some kids. He
liked it so much he offers it in his FAQ at the show's website.)
Jonathan J. Baker
>On 13 Nov 2000 15:15:17 GMT, Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> wrote:
>: Oh, I can well imagine that they were pretty careful
>: not to have Kwanzaa celebrated by an ape!!
>As the only ape in Arthur's class is Muffy Crosswire, wealthy daughter
>of a used car salesman, it wasn't a likely choice anyway. Could you
Look at the older books, like "Arthur's Eyes". Muffy and Francine are
both monkeys, and are both drawn almost the same color.
The TV show is stylized, as are the later books. Muffy and Francine
have become white and black (well, yellow-beige and brown), corresponding
with their (capitalist-rich, working-class) economic status.
Do you know any aardvarks with egg-shaped heads? Arthur and Brain have
almost identical heads, but I don't think they're supposed to be the same
kind of animal
--
Jonathan Baker | Marches-wan, marches-two,
jjb...@panix.com | March the months all through and through
Web page update: Vidui, Siyum on Moed. http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/
Jonathan J. Baker
>"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>will
>> : discover
>> : that both Muffy and Francine are monkeys. Muffy's father, by the way,
>>
>> Francine is a hippo.
>The characters changed when they made the transition to TV and in fact had
>been changing in the books for some time. Because it is so far off topic,
>I'm going to e-mail you the brief description from the website in which Marc
>Brown answers the question of who is what himself.
The name Binky Barnes comes from a book series from the '60s called
the "Brains Benton mysteries" - Binky Barnes was an annoying kid who
tagged along with the main gang.
I don't know if Marc Brown did this intentionally, or just had the
name sitting in his head unconsciously.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> Hadass Eviatar wrote:
>
> > BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely episode
> > where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember)
>
> Jodie (Jody?)
That's it - thanks. Have you noticed that she always wears a hat? Not
sure why, since she obviously isn't married ...
>
> > turns out to be Jewish - but they discover this because she refuses to eat some
> > bread brought in by another character, and says she'll do it in a week's time.
> > He is insulted and things deteriorate from there, until she finally explains
> > about Pesach. I thought it was very well done.
>
> And then there was the one where the boy thought that her
> menorah (chanukiah) would look *lovely* on his Xmas tree....
> We taped that one for our little girl :-))
Haven't seen that one ... I'll look out for it, it's sure to air
sometime in the next few weeks 8-).
Yitzchak Moran
>
> What's this with "The Little Mermaid"? We're supposed to be happy the
> girl ignored her father's wishes, abandoned her people, and married
> someone who was not only from outside her faith, but didn't even know
> anything about Mermaid values?
>
> Is this something that we, as Jewish parents, should be exposing our
> children to?
Wait, that's it! Micha has put the proverbial finger on it! In "Little
Mermaid II," Ariel's daughter, Melody, is able to become a Mermaid again.
Obviously, then, mermism is passed through the mother, no matter the
status of the father. Plus, the name "Ariel" is clearly a clue. Then,
add to the fact that the original Little Mermaid came out during
Katzenberg's time at the helm of Disney's animation department and,
well, the case is clear:
Merpeople are the lost tribes.
Susan Cohen
Hadass Eviatar wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Hadass Eviatar wrote:
> >
> > > BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely episode
> > > where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember)
> >
> > Jodie (Jody?)
>
> That's it - thanks. Have you noticed that she always wears a hat? Not
> sure why, since she obviously isn't married ...
Yes! That bothers me, too! I keep hoping that they didn't
mess up - they seemed to do well with everything else....
> > > turns out to be Jewish - but they discover this because she refuses to eat some
> > > bread brought in by another character, and says she'll do it in a week's time.
> > > He is insulted and things deteriorate from there, until she finally explains
> > > about Pesach. I thought it was very well done.
> >
> > And then there was the one where the boy thought that her
> > menorah (chanukiah) would look *lovely* on his Xmas tree....
> > We taped that one for our little girl :-))
>
> Haven't seen that one ... I'll look out for it, it's sure to air
> sometime in the next few weeks 8-).
:-)
Susan
Micha Berger
:> That's it - thanks. Have you noticed that she always wears a hat? Not
:> sure why, since she obviously isn't married ...
: Yes! That bothers me, too! I keep hoping that they didn't
: mess up - they seemed to do well with everything else....
People, she's a puppet. The hat is part of her head. You'll notice they
never change clothing, either.
The Puzzle Place is about ethnic diversity, so it ought to have "one
of each" -- a Jewish girl from NY, Ben is of Scandinavian descent from
Wisconsin, there is a native American, an Asian girl from San Francisco,
etc...
In Arthur, though, imposing such diversity seems artificial. Even in New
York, how many people live in that diverse of a neighborhood. By making
a point of mixing races, ethnicities and religions, they make a point
about people's uniqueness. Martin Luther King's dream was for all people
to be equal because they "would not be judged by the color of their skin"
-- not because we judge all colors/faiths/lifestyles to be equal.
:>> And then there was the one where the boy thought that her
:>> menorah (chanukiah) would look *lovely* on his Xmas tree....
:>> We taped that one for our little girl :-))
:> Haven't seen that one ... I'll look out for it, it's sure to air
:> sometime in the next few weeks 8-).
This is a good thing? To rob both religions of signficance?
-mi
Susan Cohen
Micha Berger wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2000 15:15:17 GMT, Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> wrote:
> : Oh, I can well imagine that they were pretty careful
> : not to have Kwanzaa celebrated by an ape!!
>
> As the only ape in Arthur's class is Muffy Crosswire, wealthy daughter
> of a used car salesman, it wasn't a likely choice anyway.
Francine is as much of an ape as Muffy.
> Could you
> picture all those connotations of bunko artist (yes, Marc Brown does
> perpetuate stereotypes about used car salesmen)
Wow! Must have missed those episodes!
Susan
Adelle Stavis
>
>
> Hadass Eviatar wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Hadass Eviatar wrote:
> > >
> > > > BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely
episode
> > > > where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember)
> > >
> > > Jodie (Jody?)
> >
> > sure why, since she obviously isn't married ...
>
> Yes! That bothers me, too! I keep hoping that they didn't
> mess up - they seemed to do well with everything else....
Seems to me it was a personal quirk of the vanity variety. Wasn't she also
particular about her curly hair and certain dress up clothes?
On what station can you see Puzzle Place? It's no longer carried on the PBS
stations in Boston AFAIK.
Adelle Stavis
Dan Kimmel
> In Arthur, though, imposing such diversity seems artificial. Even in New
> York, how many people live in that diverse of a neighborhood. By making
> a point of mixing races, ethnicities and religions, they make a point
> about people's uniqueness. Martin Luther King's dream was for all people
> to be equal because they "would not be judged by the color of their skin"
> -- not because we judge all colors/faiths/lifestyles to be equal.
The kids on "Arthur" don't live in the same neighborhood. They live in the
same small town. Francine lives in an apartment building, Buster lives in a
condo, Muffy in a mansion, Arthur in a single-family home. What the kids
have in common is that they're all in the same class at school. (And just
what religion IS Mr. Ratburn? Might his father have been a Ratburnowitz?)
Micha Berger
: The kids on "Arthur" don't live in the same neighborhood. They live in the
: same small town.
They live close enough to each other to attend the same Public School.
: (And just
: what religion IS Mr. Ratburn? Might his father have been a Ratburnowitz?)
As anyone who read Art Spiegelman's "Maus" would know, Mr Ratburn Sr
was clearly a holocaust survivor. Note also how "Barnes", the typical
American is a dog... Clearly the whole thing was intended from day
one to be set in Spiegelman's metaphor. Arthur is actually about the
obliviousness of the third generation toward the horrid potential man
carries within himself that came out in the holocaust.
Don't even get me started on Pickles the Clown, with his obvious statement
about the absurdity of "kosher style", gastronomic Judaism.
-mi
PS: No, I'm not being serious.
Susan Cohen
Micha Berger wrote:
> On 14 Nov 2000 07:10:02 GMT, Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> wrote:
> :> That's it - thanks. Have you noticed that she always wears a hat? Not
> :> sure why, since she obviously isn't married ...
>
> : Yes! That bothers me, too! I keep hoping that they didn't
> : mess up - they seemed to do well with everything else....
>
> People, she's a puppet.
Yes, we *know* they're all puppets.
> The hat is part of her head.
No, it isn't, as she wears different ones.
> You'll notice they
> never change clothing, either.
Actually, they do. They wear all sorts of costumes.
Yes, I know that you are saying their usual
clothes are sewn to their bodies.
> The Puzzle Place is about ethnic diversity, so it ought to have "one
> of each" -- a Jewish girl from NY, Ben is of Scandinavian descent from
> Wisconsin, there is a native American, an Asian girl from San Francisco,
> etc...
We're clear on this concept.
What we're wondering is if the writers think unmarried Jewish
girls have to wear hats - IOW, are they confused?
> In Arthur, though, imposing such diversity seems artificial. Even in New
> York, how many people live in that diverse of a neighborhood. By making
> a point of mixing races, ethnicities and religions, they make a point
> about people's uniqueness. Martin Luther King's dream was for all people
> to be equal because they "would not be judged by the color of their skin"
> -- not because we judge all colors/faiths/lifestyles to be equal.
>
> :>> And then there was the one where the boy thought that her
> :>> menorah (chanukiah) would look *lovely* on his Xmas tree....
> :>> We taped that one for our little girl :-))
>
> :> Haven't seen that one ... I'll look out for it, it's sure to air
> :> sometime in the next few weeks 8-).
>
> This is a good thing? To rob both religions of signficance?
And what makes you think they are robbed of significance?
Has it not occurred to you that they are leaving more religious
details to each family to sort out?
Susan
Susan Cohen
Adelle Stavis wrote:
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3A10E4B6...@hers.com...
> >
> >
> > Hadass Eviatar wrote:
> >
> > > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hadass Eviatar wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > BTW, on another children's show, The Puzzle Place, there's a lovely
> episode
> > > > > where one of the characters (whose name I can't remember)
> > > >
> > > > Jodie (Jody?)
> > >
> > > That's it - thanks. Have you noticed that she always wears a hat? Not
> > > sure why, since she obviously isn't married ...
> >
> > Yes! That bothers me, too! I keep hoping that they didn't
> > mess up - they seemed to do well with everything else....
>
> Seems to me it was a personal quirk of the vanity variety. Wasn't she also
> particular about her curly hair and certain dress up clothes?
Oh, all the girls get that routine at least once.
> On what station can you see Puzzle Place? It's no longer carried on the PBS
> stations in Boston AFAIK.
Yes, I've noticed the PBS stations we get (MD) don't
carry it either!
Susan
Hadass Eviatar
> Seems to me it was a personal quirk of the vanity variety. Wasn't she also
> particular about her curly hair and certain dress up clothes?
You are probably right.
>
> On what station can you see Puzzle Place? It's no longer carried on the PBS
> stations in Boston AFAIK.
Hm. I haven't seen it recently, maybe it isn't carried by our PBS
anymore either (Prairie Public, out of Fargo, ND). I saw a lot more
kids' TV when I was on mat leave ...
Dan Kimmel
"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:8upq7s$llb$1...@panix6.panix.com...
> In <> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> writes:
> >On 13 Nov 2000 15:15:17 GMT, Susan Cohen <fla...@hers.com> wrote:
> >: Oh, I can well imagine that they were pretty careful
> >: not to have Kwanzaa celebrated by an ape!!
>
> >As the only ape in Arthur's class is Muffy Crosswire, wealthy daughter
> >of a used car salesman, it wasn't a likely choice anyway. Could you
>
> Look at the older books, like "Arthur's Eyes". Muffy and Francine are
> both monkeys, and are both drawn almost the same color.
>
> The TV show is stylized, as are the later books. Muffy and Francine
> have become white and black (well, yellow-beige and brown), corresponding
> with their (capitalist-rich, working-class) economic status.
>
> Do you know any aardvarks with egg-shaped heads? Arthur and Brain have
> almost identical heads, but I don't think they're supposed to be the same
> kind of animal
According to Marc Brown (who ought to know) Muffy and Francine are both
monkeys, Arthur is -- of course -- an aardvark, and the Brain is a bear.
abe kohen
"Sheldon Glickler" <sheldonlg_f...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:8up0j7$a43$1...@condor.nj.org...
So perhaps did Shylock.
> As to the
> other, I think you mean "Boston Public".
Yes, thank you, Boston Public. That show and Fox's "$treet" are my new shows to
watch.
> While that show is very good,
> Feyvush is terrible character as comes across as a doddering, stupid old
> man.
Make that : Feyvush is cast as a stupid old Jewish man.
Abe
>
> Shelly
Sheldon Glickler
>
> "Sheldon Glickler" <sheldonlg_f...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:8up0j7$a43$1...@condor.nj.org...
> >
>
> > As to the
> > other, I think you mean "Boston Public".
>
shows to
> watch.
>
> > Feyvush is terrible character as comes across as a doddering, stupid old
> > man.
>
>
Of course. Thank you.
Shelly
Tracey Rich
>>Another great exception was the '90s science fiction series "Babylon 5"
>>where one of the characters was a Russian Jew. In one episode her father
>>dies and several episodes later her rabbi (played by Theodore Bikel!) shows
>>up asking if she sat shiva...
>
>I thought it was amusing that the person playing that character
>is named Claudia Christian.
And she is *very* tired of hearing people point out how ironic that is.
<grin>
But she did a very nice job with it. And they didn't just forget that she was
Jewish after that episode. I can remember at least one other episode where it
came up: it was the end of the year, and at the end of an episode, they show
various people doing various things, and they show her lighting Chanukkah
candles.
Overheard at the office:
Tracey: How strictly vegetarian are you? Do you eat eggs or cheese?
Client: Yes, I eat eggs and cheese, but not fish. nothing with eyes.
Tracey: So you don't eat potatoes?
Eliyahu
"Tracey Rich" <trace...@hotmail.Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:clgR5.30$Be3....@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net...
> In article <ev4v0ts0gkqe9vfl4...@4ax.com>, Susan S
<ot...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> wrote:
> >>Another great exception was the '90s science fiction series "Babylon 5"
> >>where one of the characters was a Russian Jew. In one episode her
father
> >>dies and several episodes later her rabbi (played by Theodore Bikel!)
shows
> >>up asking if she sat shiva...
> >
> >I thought it was amusing that the person playing that character
> >is named Claudia Christian.
>
> And she is *very* tired of hearing people point out how ironic that is.
> <grin>
>
> But she did a very nice job with it. And they didn't just forget that she
was
> Jewish after that episode. I can remember at least one other episode
where it
> came up: it was the end of the year, and at the end of an episode, they
show
> various people doing various things, and they show her lighting Chanukkah
> candles.
>
story arc rather than the Star Trek model with an "alien of the week". The
writer was consistent in his characters, although they developed in their
relationships with each other, their positions and jobs, and went through
the sort of changes one would expect in the lives of real people through the
years.
I would add to this that the finest actress in the series, IMHO, was Mira
Furlan who is Jewish. (Although the Minbari ambassador she played certainly
wasn't...) :-)
Eliyahu
Dan Kimmel
"Tracey Rich" <trace...@hotmail.Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:clgR5.30$Be3....@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net...
<ot...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> wrote:
> >>Another great exception was the '90s science fiction series "Babylon 5"
> >>where one of the characters was a Russian Jew. In one episode her
father
> >>dies and several episodes later her rabbi (played by Theodore Bikel!)
shows
> >>up asking if she sat shiva...
> >
> >I thought it was amusing that the person playing that character
> >is named Claudia Christian.
>
> And she is *very* tired of hearing people point out how ironic that is.
> <grin>
>
> But she did a very nice job with it. And they didn't just forget that she
was
> Jewish after that episode. I can remember at least one other episode
where it
> came up: it was the end of the year, and at the end of an episode, they
show
> various people doing various things, and they show her lighting Chanukkah
> candles.
Yes. The good guys were the "forces of light" and since the episode was
taking place at the end of the calendar year in the story, her lighting
Chanukah candles was especially appropriate.
The punchline to the story took place on the 'net: someone calculated when
Chanukah would occur in 2260 CE (or whatever year it was in the episode) and
figured out that Chanukah has actually been celebrated three weeks earlier.
:)
Tracey Rich
>I would add to this that the finest actress in the series, IMHO, was Mira
>Furlan who is Jewish. (Although the Minbari ambassador she played certainly
>wasn't...) :-)
Really? I did not know that...
She is amazing. I've heard Mira described as "the Yugoslavian Meryl Streep."
I saw her at an SF convention many years ago, and she was a delightful woman.
And a remarkably nice woman too. There is a story that JMS and the cast tell
about a practical joke that was played on Jason Carter (Marcus), in which they
led him to believe that his character was going to be killed off because he
was getting a little full of himself. I've heard this story told by Bill
Mumy, Jason Carter, and Jerry Doyle, and all three versions of the story are
remarkably similar. All Mira would say about it was that she doesn't like
practical jokes, because it's not nice, and when Bill Mumy told her what he
had done, she told Bill that it wasn't very nice, and she was disappointed in
him. (Bill Mumy confirmed that she said this -- at a completely different
convention more than a year later).
And before anybody asks what this has to do with Judaism... it is about a
Jewish woman following Hillel's rule: that which is hurtful to you, do not do
to others. <grin>