"Boreinu Moshichists"... and "ELOHEINU[!!!] Moshichists"? Is this really serious?!?
Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad
For quite some time I've been fascinated by the "Moshichist"
cross-section of the Lubavitchers. A couple years ago (or more?) I had
a discussion with a Rabbi (I think from NYU?) who had just given a
speech at an interfaith meeting at City college. He was the first one
to mention that a minority within the Moshichist cohort goes beyond
calling the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe "adoneinu, morenu, rabbeinu,
melekh ha-Mashiach" and goes as far as calling him "boreinu" (our
creator). At the time it totally blew me away, and I desired to learn
more.
Since, then I devoured "The Rebbe's Army" (which, if I recall
correctly, said nothing on the Boreinu issue), and ""The Messiah of
Brooklyn". The latter work had a section which shocked me, discussing
how it is not uncommon among Chasidim to believe that it is okay to
protstrate before and even pray to a Tsaddiq, as it is (in their view)
no different from doing such before G-d. I briefly touched on this last
March...
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish.moderated/msg/993b90d37b3973a4
Anyway, I felt I couldn't find much on the Boreinu issue (and I figured
I would never, with my own eyes, see a person positively assert/endorse
the "Boreinu" proclamation). I only read online about people seeing
bumper stickers in Israel with "Boreinu" on it, which struck me as
being like bigfoot sightings (due to how rare they were).
But then, I found this today:
I did a google search of the URL, and apparently this has never been
brought up in SCJM (or SCJ, or any other newsgroup for that matter!).
So for those who have not seen this, you might be shocked.
**Before I go on, however, please note that I am not endorsing any of
the claims on the site, nor will I be making any attempt to say what is
and is not authentic Jewish belief in this post. Also, in case anyone
is wondering, I am *NOT* a Christian, J4J type, or anything like that
(I employ this disclaimer because such things become sensative issues
when discussing this topic).**
I spent the last half hour reading and re-reading the site, and I
simply could not believe my eyes. Not only does it defend referring to
the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe as "boreinu," it even defends (and
endorses!) calling him "eloheinu" (our God), and further employs the
Tetragrammaton (vocalizing it _e_o_a_) when referring to Schneerson. In
short, as is obvious from the URL, it is unabashed about declaring the
late Lubavitcher Rebbe to be G-d.
As I read it, I wondered if it was a joke. I thought to myself "is this
some sick J4J-type missionary group trying to cause confusion and
create an environment more conducive to their own conversion efforts?"
I mean, the language employed, and the images, at first glance seemed
to hint at such a possibility. But now I don't think so. The blog is
attributed to Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky, who is apparently a very vocal
Moshichist, and it seems the same claims appear on another blog
apparently run by Sokolovsky:
http://moshiachtv.blogspot.com/
Now, some of the language attempting to describe precisely in what
sense the Rebbe is divine *seems* to be along the lines of what is
mentioned in the aforementioned book by Avrum Ehrlich ("The Messiah of
Brooklyn"). But I am still shocked.
Also, the site seems to hint at reaching out to gentiles in some
respect (i.e. I wonder if the author believes they too are required to
accept Schneerson as Mashiach?), and the website http://noahide.com/ is
even more explicit in this regard. It even has the acronym JAHG - "Jews
And Hasidic Gentiles".... Chasidic Gentiles?!? What does that mean?
I must confess: I am very confused. So let me ask some questions which
I hope will spark further conversation:
(1) How prominent is the Moshichist crowd within ChaBaD? Are they a
minority or a majority? Some have claimed that the only difference
between anti-Moshichist and Moshichist Lubavitchers is on how public
they should be about about their continued belief that the Rebbe was/is
Mashiach - do others believe that is true? Or is that merely
unwarranted cynicism?
(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
(3) Does anyone know what the precise position of the Moshichists
and/or the Boreinu crowd is regarding gentiles? Do they have to accept
the Rebbe as Mashiach (and in the case of the Boreinu crowd, accept him
as divine) as a requisite for saving themselves? What, exactly, is a
chasidic gentile?
(4) Finally, where is this heading? Will these groups grow or die out?
What do others think?
I anxiously look forward to the comments of others, and hope that no
one found what I wrote offensive.
Harry Weiss
> As I read it, I wondered if it was a joke. I thought to myself "is this
> some sick J4J-type missionary group trying to cause confusion and
> create an environment more conducive to their own conversion efforts?"
> I mean, the language employed, and the images, at first glance seemed
> to hint at such a possibility. But now I don't think so. The blog is
> attributed to Rabbi Ariel Sokolovsky, who is apparently a very vocal
> Moshichist, and it seems the same claims appear on another blog
> apparently run by Sokolovsky:
> http://moshiachtv.blogspot.com/
The site lists this sokolovsky as being in Portland. He is NOT one of the
official Chabad reps there. There are wackos everywhere.
Yisroel Markov
I know this guy personally. He has a confirmed diagnosis of bipolar
disorder, and probably other problems, as well. He's no rabbi - I know
for a fact that he was unable to last more than a couple of months in
any of the Boston schools and yeshivas. A sad case, really.
>Now, some of the language attempting to describe precisely in what
>sense the Rebbe is divine *seems* to be along the lines of what is
>mentioned in the aforementioned book by Avrum Ehrlich ("The Messiah of
>Brooklyn"). But I am still shocked.
>
>Also, the site seems to hint at reaching out to gentiles in some
>respect (i.e. I wonder if the author believes they too are required to
>accept Schneerson as Mashiach?), and the website http://noahide.com/ is
>even more explicit in this regard. It even has the acronym JAHG - "Jews
>And Hasidic Gentiles".... Chasidic Gentiles?!? What does that mean?
>
>I must confess: I am very confused. So let me ask some questions which
>I hope will spark further conversation:
>
>(1) How prominent is the Moshichist crowd within ChaBaD? Are they a
>minority or a majority? Some have claimed that the only difference
>between anti-Moshichist and Moshichist Lubavitchers is on how public
>they should be about about their continued belief that the Rebbe was/is
>Mashiach - do others believe that is true? Or is that merely
>unwarranted cynicism?
I believe it is true. There are *very* few anti-Moshichists. The
"don't make noises about it" crowd are at most non-Moshichists.
>(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
>bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
>claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
>(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
>(3) Does anyone know what the precise position of the Moshichists
>and/or the Boreinu crowd is regarding gentiles? Do they have to accept
>the Rebbe as Mashiach (and in the case of the Boreinu crowd, accept him
>as divine) as a requisite for saving themselves? What, exactly, is a
>chasidic gentile?
Don't know about that last, but the former statements are all correct,
AFAIK.
>(4) Finally, where is this heading? Will these groups grow or die out?
Hard to say. Most likely, once the generation that actually saw the
Rebbe dies out, their children will mostly carry on, but without the
same fervor.
>What do others think?
>
>I anxiously look forward to the comments of others, and hope that no
>one found what I wrote offensive.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Lisa
Yisroel Markov wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:34:43 +0000 (UTC), "Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad"
> <abuk...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> >http://moshiachtv.blogspot.com/
>
> I know this guy personally. He has a confirmed diagnosis of bipolar
> disorder, and probably other problems, as well. He's no rabbi - I know
> for a fact that he was unable to last more than a couple of months in
> any of the Boston schools and yeshivas. A sad case, really.
Really. What's the excuse of the others?
> >(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
> >bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
> >claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
> >(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
>
> I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
And what I just don't get is why 10% isn't enough for bigshot
Chabadnikim to stand up and proclaim very loudly and very publically
that such people are ovdei avodah zarah, and that they are utterly
outside of Judaism. That they are not to be permitted to hold
positions of authority in Jewish institutions, and that they are not
even to be greeted without three days of any holidays they observe
(even if they are holidays that we also observe).
The fact that this doesn't happen tells me that it's a helluva lot more
prevelant than you think. We know that non-meshichistim are just
meshichistim who don't believe it's appropriate to publicise their
beliefs. I'm starting to think that the same may be true of so-called
non-elokistim among the Lubavitch.
> >(4) Finally, where is this heading? Will these groups grow or die out?
>
> Hard to say. Most likely, once the generation that actually saw the
> Rebbe dies out, their children will mostly carry on, but without the
> same fervor.
Right. Just like the early Christians.
> >What do others think?
> >
> >I anxiously look forward to the comments of others, and hope that no
> >one found what I wrote offensive.
I only think it's offensive that there are ostensibly frum Jews who
tolerate this kind of avodah zarah. Who daven at Lubavitch places of
worship and accept Lubavitchers on batei din.
Lisa
Eliyahu
Lisa wrote:
> Yisroel Markov wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:34:43 +0000 (UTC), "Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad"
> > <abuk...@yahoo.com> said:
> >
> > >http://moshiachtv.blogspot.com/
> >
> > I know this guy personally. He has a confirmed diagnosis of bipolar
> > disorder, and probably other problems, as well. He's no rabbi - I know
> > for a fact that he was unable to last more than a couple of months in
> > any of the Boston schools and yeshivas. A sad case, really.
>
> Really. What's the excuse of the others?
>
> > >(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
> > >bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
> > >claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
> > >(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
> >
> > I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
>
> And what I just don't get is why 10% isn't enough for bigshot
> Chabadnikim to stand up and proclaim very loudly and very publically
> that such people are ovdei avodah zarah, and that they are utterly
> outside of Judaism. That they are not to be permitted to hold
> positions of authority in Jewish institutions, and that they are not
> even to be greeted without three days of any holidays they observe
> (even if they are holidays that we also observe).
>
> The fact that this doesn't happen tells me that it's a helluva lot more
> prevelant than you think.
Or it could just as well mean that there are other reasons they haven't
done so. The big-shots minght also be trying to work behind the scenes
to get the heretics in line without either raising a public ruckus or
humiliating them. I don't have any contact with them, and don't presume
to read their minds.
>We know that non-meshichistim are just
> meshichistim who don't believe it's appropriate to publicise their
> beliefs.
How do we "know" this? The few Chabad folks I know believe, at most,
that the Rebbe _had the potential_ to become Moshiach*, and are of the
opinion that the meshichistim are either nuts or following bad advice
and poor information. I wouldn't classify them as "closet
meshichistim."
Eliyahu
*Could the Lubavitcher Rebbe have become Moshiach? Who knows? He was
probably as good a candidate as anyone else of his generation, and one
could make a fairly compelling case in his favor. The question is
academic now, of course, since he died.
Boruch Tkatch
chasidim believe one may pray to a Tzaddik.
Both of these are Xian values, repulsed and rejected by Judaism as
either paganism, polytheism, (or shutfus).
For your questions:
1) It depends on the city. Every city is different. And even in the
"Moshichist camp" there are many different beliefs.
I think most Moshichists just means they are Lubavitch with an extra
belief about the Rebbe, they are not a "separate camp".. These is a
minority that is more vociferous about it, however, and that does breed
a bit of sectarianism. They are mostly rejected even by the standard
Moshichists.
2) There is no "Boreinu" crowd.
3) There is no "Boreinu" crowd. As such, it is not prominent, and there
are no beliefs regarding genitles.
4) I see this is as an attempt by someone to malign Lubavitchers, since
they seem to be an easy target. Lubavitch has Tzedakkah and Chesed
guarding them, even if they are mistaken regarding the status of the
Rebbe, so i do not see any long term affects.
Boruch
q_q_an...@yahoo.co.uk
I think the majourity aren't moshiachists
minority are, and a really tiny tiny minority think he's G-d.
They don't make a fuss because they value jewish unity. especially
within their own ranks.
Lubavitch/chabad are a branch of chassidim. Chassidim are followers of
the Baal Shem Tov
I see no indication that http://noahide.com/ is moshiachist. They
are just gentiles that like lubavitcher chassidim, are influenced by
and follow the teaching of the late lubavitcher rebbe. He taught Torah.
Torah defines laws for jews - jewish law - 613 mitzvot. And 7 laws for
non jews - the noachide laws.
There are noachides that aren't influenced by Rabbi shneersohn but the
ones on that site clearly are. The site seems to be ex christians and
influenced by Rabbi Shneersohn.
Harry Weiss
> I think the majourity aren't moshiachists
> minority are, and a really tiny tiny minority think he's G-d.
I agree that the boreinu crod is tiny, but it is probably as big as those
who belive that Shneersoon is not Moshiach. (The non Moshicists are those
that belive in not making it too public
Lisa
Harry Weiss wrote:
> q_q_an...@yahoo.co.uk <q_q_an...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I think the majourity aren't moshiachists
> > minority are, and a really tiny tiny minority think he's G-d.
>
>
> I agree that the boreinu crod
You misspelled "crud".
> is tiny, but it is probably as big as those
> who belive that Shneersoon is not Moshiach. (The non Moshicists are those
> that belive in not making it too public
Correct.
Lisa
Yisroel Markov
said:
>
>Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:34:43 +0000 (UTC), "Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad"
>> <abuk...@yahoo.com> said:
>>
>> >http://moshiachtv.blogspot.com/
>>
>> I know this guy personally. He has a confirmed diagnosis of bipolar
>> disorder, and probably other problems, as well. He's no rabbi - I know
>> for a fact that he was unable to last more than a couple of months in
>> any of the Boston schools and yeshivas. A sad case, really.
>
>Really. What's the excuse of the others?
Don't know, but I suspect similar problems with at least some of them.
>> >(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
>> >bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
>> >claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
>> >(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
>>
>> I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
>
>And what I just don't get is why 10% isn't enough for bigshot
>Chabadnikim to stand up and proclaim very loudly and very publically
>that such people are ovdei avodah zarah, and that they are utterly
>outside of Judaism. That they are not to be permitted to hold
>positions of authority in Jewish institutions, and that they are not
>even to be greeted without three days of any holidays they observe
>(even if they are holidays that we also observe).
Apparently, they disagree on the degree of loudness required. Anyway,
here's a link to scans of some documents from the Beit Din of Crown
Heights - http://rabbi-kittner.livejournal.com/10601.html
(the page is in Russian, but the documents are in Hebrew and English.)
Those document how four years ago they disclaimed any connection to a
boreinik "rabbi" in Milwakee, WS, one Alexander Milshtein. I have not
heard of any other boreiniks who hold similar positions.
>The fact that this doesn't happen tells me that it's a helluva lot more
>prevelant than you think. We know that non-meshichistim are just
>meshichistim who don't believe it's appropriate to publicise their
>beliefs. I'm starting to think that the same may be true of so-called
>non-elokistim among the Lubavitch.
I doubt it. Rather, I suspect, the non-elokists, who are still a vast
majority, do have to struggle with the statements of the two latest L
Rebbes regarding the divinity of a perfect tzaddik, which probably
leads them to look with some leniency on those who lose the struggle.
>> >(4) Finally, where is this heading? Will these groups grow or die out?
>>
>> Hard to say. Most likely, once the generation that actually saw the
>> Rebbe dies out, their children will mostly carry on, but without the
>> same fervor.
>
>Right. Just like the early Christians.
The early Christians were swimming in a receptive sea of people ready
to abandon polytheism. This is not the case today.
>> >What do others think?
>> >
>> >I anxiously look forward to the comments of others, and hope that no
>> >one found what I wrote offensive.
>
>I only think it's offensive that there are ostensibly frum Jews who
>tolerate this kind of avodah zarah. Who daven at Lubavitch places of
>worship and accept Lubavitchers on batei din.
This is a halakhic matter, and should be addressed as such.
Boruch Tkatch
from someone i trust) that she gave a speech, and thanked the Rebbe for
creating her. So, i recognize the phenomena, and am rather troubled
that such things exist.
I still do not think there is a Boreinu crowd.
Boruch
q_q_an...@yahoo.co.uk
what do you guys base this on?
the lubavitchers i've spoken to on askmoses say he's not moshiach. I
think it's a bit disproportionately aggressive to ask them in real
life. Though my friendly cousin asks them gently, and he says they
say they are.
They had a bad experience in his shul where a luby took the shul
service in a non main service (aged 20-30?) (13-24?) (i've never been,
don't ask me!) , they said something about the Rebbe in the davening.
However, Lubaitchers regularly lead misnaged congregations and they
don't make any claims about the Rebbe.
Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad
An interesting exchnage below...
I, Sayid Abu Khamr, asked:
> >> >(4) Finally, where is this heading? Will these groups grow or die out?
Yisroel Markov answered:
> >> Hard to say. Most likely, once the generation that actually saw the
> >> Rebbe dies out, their children will mostly carry on, but without the
> >> same fervor.
Lisa commented:
> Right. Just like the early Christians.
Yisroel retorted:
> The early Christians were swimming in a receptive sea of people ready
> to abandon polytheism. This is not the case today.
Regarding this, it reflects when the Christian community failed to make
any serious converts within the Jewish community, and then moved to
proselytizing the gentiles. So for the situation to be analogous, the
Moshichists and/or Boreinists would have to start proselytizing to
gentiles as well. While America is not exactly "a sea of people ready
to abandon polytheism," there are *MANY* Americans (however small
percentage wise) who are anxious to embrace something other than
Christianity. Such people are the ones who reject their christian
ubbringing to become Muslims, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, "New Age
Pagans" (e.g. Wiccans, Santeros, et cetera). Still others become
Noahides or even convert to Judaism. But I think these people want to
hold onto something which has elements similar to the faith they are
abandoning (i.e. Judaism, and to a lesser degree Islam, are going to be
a lot more familiar to a lapsed Christian than is Buddhism or the Hare
Krishna faith).
The only reason Judaism is not more successful in sweeping these people
up is because Jews don't proselytize, and furthermore, generally
discourage conversion. Islam would also be more successful were it not
the case that so many Muslims are so good at providing very negative
examples of Islam in practice (e.g. 9/11, terrorism in Europe and
Israel, assorted death threats against cartoonists and writers,
probably turned off a potential convert or two). Thus, in short, if
Moshichist (or even Boreinist) Lubavitchers actually started to
actively proselytize among American gentiles, they could easily gain
thousands of converts in a matter of years. Of course they would never
be any sort of a majority, but they would be capable to building a
community and finding people willingly interested in their ideas and
doctrines.
Furthermore, Lisa has a point. The Christian analogy is relevant
because the faith did not die out after the first generation passed
away. Admittedly, this DID happen with the followers of Shabtai Zvi who
continued to proclaim him Mashiach even after he embraced Islam, but
then where in the world were such people free to proselytize (if they
desired to do so) at that time? America is a place were people are free
to invite others to embrace their ideologies (unlike medieval Christan
and Muslim lands).
Regarding the next generation, I think it is obvious that if you are
taught something at a time when you are too young to think critically
about it (i.e. when you are a child), it is more difficult for you to
abandon that belief. Even Fishkoff's book alludes to the existence of a
pre-school where, every morning, the children sing "yechi adoneinu" and
are taught that the Rebbe is Moshiach. If the Moshichists are actively
instilling this belief in their children, then many of those children
are likely to hold very firmly to this belief (because of human nature,
as we all love and trust our parents). As for the Boreinu crowd, if
they are in fact near 10% of the Lubavitch community, does that mean it
is possible that literally hundreds of children are being taught these
beliefs?
Now, tying some of these points together, the Donmeh (people who
continued to believe Shabtai Zvi was Moshiach after he embraced Islam,
and apparently even worshipped him as divine) allegedly lasted well
into the 19th century. So children can and do maintain the beliefs of
their forefathers. Combine that with an environment where one is free
to proselytize, and a community can indeed grown and prosper. The only
question now is, will the Moshichists (and/or Boreinists), if they feel
rejected by the Jewish community, ever actually turn to brining their
message to gentiles? It is a fascinating thought experiment to wonder
what would happen in such instances (how many Christians would they
convert, and what sort of responses would the Christians develop over
time in counter-missionary activities?).
Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad
Boruch Tkatch wrote:
>
> No chasidim believe one may pray to a Tzaddik.
As I noted in my opening post, a rather different claim was made in M.
Avrum Ehrlich's book "The Messiah Of Brooklyn: Understanding Lubavitch
Hasidism Past And Present". This was also roughly alluded to in what
Yisroel Markov wrote in this very thread on friday:
"I suspect, the non-elokists, who are still a vast majority, do have to
struggle with the statements of the two latest L[ubavitcher] Rebbes
regarding the divinity of a perfect tzaddik, which probably leads them
to look with some leniency on those who lose the struggle."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish.moderated/msg/164ee0c985c357fc
> Both of these are Xian values, repulsed and rejected by Judaism as
> either paganism, polytheism, (or shutfus).
Indeed, the whole phenomenon reminds many of the history of Xianity
(small group of Jews claims their Rebbe was Moshiach, their Rebbe dies,
but a few still hold onto the claim despite this fact, some even go on
to declare that man divine, and while they are unable to convince many
in the larger Jewish community that their beliefs are true, they start
toying with the idea of brining this message to gentiles). If what we
are hearing about *certain* Lubavitchers is true (and it seems to me
that it is), then this could at least provide us with some historical
insight into how such things happen.
> There is no "Boreinu" crowd. As such, it is not prominent
What does this mean? When others speak of the "Boreinu crowd" I think
they mean simply a cohort which employs the term "boreinu" when
referring to Schneerson. It is one thing to say that they are not
prominent, but something entirely different to say they do not exist
(and you yourself mentioned hearing about a girl thanking the Rebbe for
creating her).
> I see this is as an attempt by someone to malign Lubavitchers, since
> they seem to be an easy target.
Well, it was not my intention to attack ChaBaD. I was not endorsing any
of these views, or making any claims about what is and is not proper
Judaism. I was merely commenting on a phenomenon that I find quite
interesting. And while it is indeed true that some are using this
phenomenon to attack Lubavitch (or engage in other less-than-salubrious
activities), this does not mean the phenomenon is not real.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Shalom Haverim!
>
> An interesting exchnage below...
Besides being "interesting" I found it frightening.
Nothing snipped, just one point to make near the end.
It is _still_ around, mainly in Turkey. I met one a few years ago.
> So children can and do maintain the beliefs of
> their forefathers. Combine that with an environment where one is free
> to proselytize, and a community can indeed grown and prosper. The only
> question now is, will the Moshichists (and/or Boreinists), if they feel
> rejected by the Jewish community, ever actually turn to brining their
> message to gentiles? It is a fascinating thought experiment to wonder
> what would happen in such instances (how many Christians would they
> convert, and what sort of responses would the Christians develop over
> time in counter-missionary activities?).
Ouch.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Boruch Tkatch
I stand by this statement. I'd have to see clear undeniable proof that
the last two Rebbes said that. With the "controversy" over praying "to"
angels "macnisay rachamim" praying to a tzaddik would never be
accepted.
>(and you yourself mentioned hearing about a girl thanking the Rebbe for creating her).
I said that in my second post, as a form of correction to this first
post.
I still object to the term "crowd". It makes it sound much larger than
i believe it to be. You can say there are "boreinuists", however.
Assuming there is a distinct philosophy about it, and not just
something that happened on its own.
>Well, it was not my intention to attack ChaBaD.
I did not mean to say that you did. But you quotes sources, and my
comments about maligning would be directed at the source.
Boruch
Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad
Yisroel Markov wrote:
>
> >(1) How prominent is the Moshichist crowd within ChaBaD? Are they a
> >minority or a majority? Some have claimed that the only difference
> >between anti-Moshichist and Moshichist Lubavitchers is on how public
> >they should be about about their continued belief that the Rebbe was/is
> >Mashiach - do others believe that is true? Or is that merely
> >unwarranted cynicism?
>
> I believe it is true. There are *very* few anti-Moshichists. The
> "don't make noises about it" crowd are at most non-Moshichists.
I'm a bit confused here (and I think this is my own fault, for
carelessly using certain terminology). I was using "anti-Moshichist" in
a way that would have been similar to "non-Moshichist," i.e. a person
who does not positively believe (at present) that Schneerson was
Mashiach.
On a side note, in my previous post I alluded to Sue Fishkoff's book
"The Rebbe's Army : Inside the World of Chabad-Lubavitch," and I also
alluded to a Rabbi (I think from NYU) whom I met at City College
(sadly, I forget his name). Anyway, I mentioned how Fishkoff's book
paints the picture of the Rebbe sternly rejecting the claim that he was
Melekh HaMashiach, but then after he had his stroke, and was no longer
able to speak, Moshichists only believed he accepted the mantle of
Melekh HaMashiach because he bobbed his head along to the tune of them
singing "yechi adoneinu". For example, you can see video of Schneerson
(post stroke) moving to the tune of Yechi Adoneinu (and the
Lubavitchers in attendance seemingly whipping themselves up into a
frenzy) here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6409897220297335666
Anyway when I mentioned this to the Rabbi I met at City College (we
rode the 1/9 train back together and had an interesting conversation),
he said it was nonsense, and he called Fishkoff's book "a total
whitewash". Then he said there is video out there of Schneerson, long
before his stroke, being presented with gifts from women who are
declaring him, to his face, to be Melekh HaMashiach, and he accepted
it. Just today I found the videos at 77live.com, which can be seen
here:
http://216.53.71.16:8080/ramgen/770live/likutim/kabolas-hamalchus.rm
http://216.53.71.16:8080/ramgen/770live/likutim/yechi-tambourine.rm
The videos are slow to load/buffer, but if the links don't work, you
can find them here:
http://www.770live.com/En770/rebbe_videos.asp
So it seems this Moshichist issue goes deeper than Fishkoff seemed to
let on. Furthermore, last night I flipped through my copy of Fishkoff's
book again, browsing the 14th chapter (which is specifically on the
subject of the Moshichist issue), and she mentions something I found
perplexing. One, she writes that Schneerson loved the song Yechi
Adoneinu, but never sang the words (I'm at a loss to what this means -
did he simply hum, or say "ya ya" to the tune of the song sung in the
video above? and why the need to keep the words unspoken or even
hidden?). Two, she speaks of an incident IN THE 60S[!!!], in which a
Lubavitcher rented a helicopter and threw out hundreds of leaflets
which proclaimed Schneerson to be Melekh HaMashiach. On this second
point, if the story is true, does that mean the Moshichist camp already
existed three decades before Schneerson suffered his stroke?
This is all very interesting to me. It seems there is reason to believe
that Schneerson did in fact endorse the Moshichist view. If that is so,
I should note something that I have noted previously in SCJM: back in
September of 2003 I was in a library in Crown Heights and found a book
(I forget the title, but it is in the Jewish/Hebrew section of that
tiny library on Eastern Parkway), which had an article/chapter - I
*think* authored by Rabbi Zushe A. Kohn - which gave an interesting
argument about how, within a Chasidic community, it
is the community's Rebbe that determines what is and is not apiqorsus.
Assuming this is true, one has to wonder what effect the Rebbe
endorsing (even if in a mostly tacit way) the Moshichist view would
have on the Lubavitcher community.
> >(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
> >bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
> >claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
> >(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
>
> I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
I must confess that this shocked me. I assumed it was smaller, but I'll
take your word for it. If 10% of Lubavitchers fall into the "Boreinu"
crowd, what does that mean? I mean, how many Lubavitchers are out
there? Tens of thousands perhaps? If so, does this mean that the
Boreinu crowd could number in the thousands?
Harry Weiss
> So it seems this Moshichist issue goes deeper than Fishkoff seemed to
> let on. Furthermore, last night I flipped through my copy of Fishkoff's
> book again, browsing the 14th chapter (which is specifically on the
> subject of the Moshichist issue), and she mentions something I found
> perplexing. One, she writes that Schneerson loved the song Yechi
> Adoneinu, but never sang the words (I'm at a loss to what this means -
> did he simply hum, or say "ya ya" to the tune of the song sung in the
> video above? and why the need to keep the words unspoken or even
> hidden?). Two, she speaks of an incident IN THE 60S[!!!], in which a
> Lubavitcher rented a helicopter and threw out hundreds of leaflets
> which proclaimed Schneerson to be Melekh HaMashiach. On this second
> point, if the story is true, does that mean the Moshichist camp already
> existed three decades before Schneerson suffered his stroke?
I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah, the Lubavitchers
were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach. The Yeshivah then began expelling all
Lubavitchers. Shneerson then apparently put a stop to it.
Yisroel Markov
<abuk...@yahoo.com> said:
>Shalom Haver Sheli!
>
>Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>
>> >(1) How prominent is the Moshichist crowd within ChaBaD? Are they a
>> >minority or a majority? Some have claimed that the only difference
>> >between anti-Moshichist and Moshichist Lubavitchers is on how public
>> >they should be about about their continued belief that the Rebbe was/is
>> >Mashiach - do others believe that is true? Or is that merely
>> >unwarranted cynicism?
>>
>> I believe it is true. There are *very* few anti-Moshichists. The
>> "don't make noises about it" crowd are at most non-Moshichists.
>
>I'm a bit confused here (and I think this is my own fault, for
>carelessly using certain terminology). I was using "anti-Moshichist" in
>a way that would have been similar to "non-Moshichist," i.e. a person
>who does not positively believe (at present) that Schneerson was
>Mashiach.
The terms are imprecise. I'll try to describe the situation as I see
it:
When the Rebbe was alive, there was not a Lubavitcher who didn't
believe it. (Well, maybe a few - I do know one guy who interpreted the
Rebbe's total abstention from any action during the Crown Heights
riots as a clear failure of leadership unworthy of a Mashiakh.)
After the Rebbe's death, opinions split. A more benign and AFAIK the
most popular version is that he is not currently Mashiakh (not being
present in a physical body), but will be once the resurrection of the
dead starts. This belief precludes accepting anyone else as Mashiakh,
regardless of qualifications. I'd peg this faction at 40%-50% as an
educated guess, and call them non-Mashikhists.
Then you have those who hold that the Rebbe *is* currently Mashiakh.
This presents a problem with his death. The two approaches are that:
1) he is alive spiritually, like Yakov-avinu; 2) he actually didn't
die, the grave at the Montefiore cemetery is empty, the whole thing
was an illusion, and the Rebbe walks the halls of 770, unseen to the
normal eye. This faction is 50%-60%, divided roughly equally between
those two approaches. These are the people who pretend to daven with
the Rebbe in 770, and even re-enact his Sunday dollar giveaways,
distribution of havdala wine after holidays, and the like.
The boreiniks and those who admit the possibility that the Rebbe will
not be Mashiakh - the anti-Mashikhists - are a tiny sliver among these
two factions. 10% is a *most* generous estimate, combined. The
division between those who advocate public restraint and those who
actively peddle the late Rebbe as current or future Mashiakh is within
the second factions - the Mashikhists.
According to my rabbi (an anti-Mashikhist), the tradition that a Habad
Rebbe will be Mashiakh goes back very far - perhaps even to the first
Habad Rebbe.
I am currently watching a few mashikhists on another forum try to
determine the authorship of a bit of scanned text. Current theory is
that it comes from the ma'amorim of Rebbe Ra"ShaB, that's three rebbes
back. Check it out (Hebrew):
http://static.flickr.com/38/102627853_3382268f71_o.jpg
If this is authentic... well.
>This is all very interesting to me. It seems there is reason to believe
>that Schneerson did in fact endorse the Moshichist view. If that is so,
>I should note something that I have noted previously in SCJM: back in
>September of 2003 I was in a library in Crown Heights and found a book
>(I forget the title, but it is in the Jewish/Hebrew section of that
>tiny library on Eastern Parkway), which had an article/chapter - I
>*think* authored by Rabbi Zushe A. Kohn - which gave an interesting
>argument about how, within a Chasidic community, it
>is the community's Rebbe that determines what is and is not apiqorsus.
>Assuming this is true, one has to wonder what effect the Rebbe
>endorsing (even if in a mostly tacit way) the Moshichist view would
>have on the Lubavitcher community.
They argue to this day whether the Rebbe had endorsed it. For if he
had, there would be no further argument. To go against the Rebbe
disqualifies one as a L hasid. (And this is why hasidism is not,
really, a halakhic movement.)
>> >(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
>> >bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
>> >claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
>> >(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
>>
>> I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
>
>I must confess that this shocked me. I assumed it was smaller, but I'll
>take your word for it. If 10% of Lubavitchers fall into the "Boreinu"
>crowd, what does that mean? I mean, how many Lubavitchers are out
>there? Tens of thousands perhaps? If so, does this mean that the
>Boreinu crowd could number in the thousands?
There are about 200,000 people who affiliate with Habad. Of these,
quite a lot are people who go to Chabad Houses. IOW, they are
congregants, but not necessarily hasidim of any sort.
Don Levey
>
> I am currently watching a few mashikhists on another forum try to
> determine the authorship of a bit of scanned text. Current theory is
> that it comes from the ma'amorim of Rebbe Ra"ShaB, that's three rebbes
> back. Check it out (Hebrew):
> http://static.flickr.com/38/102627853_3382268f71_o.jpg
>
> If this is authentic... well.
>
Out of curiosity, what does this say (a summary, no need to translate
the whole thing)?
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
Yoni S
Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad wrote:
> Shalom Haverim!
If you believe everything you read on the internet, I know a Nigerian
banker who could use your help.
Jonathan J. Baker
>Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:34:43 +0000 (UTC), "Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad"
>> >(2) How prominent is the Boreinu crowd? Are there really billboards and
>> >bumperstickers in Israel employing the proclamation (as some have
>> >claimed)? What do others guess/speculate the size of the "closeted"
>> >(i.e. non-vocal) "Boreinu" crowd might be?
>> I'd be surprised if it's more than 10%.
>And what I just don't get is why 10% isn't enough for bigshot
>Chabadnikim to stand up and proclaim very loudly and very publically
>that such people are ovdei avodah zarah, and that they are utterly
>outside of Judaism. That they are not to be permitted to hold
>positions of authority in Jewish institutions, and that they are not
>even to be greeted without three days of any holidays they observe
>(even if they are holidays that we also observe).
How often do you want them to say it? The Agu"ch (Chabad central
committee, such as it is) made a big public proclamation several
years ago that this is indeed the case.
But given that Chabadniks are masters of misdirection when it comes
to clarifying their belief system, how are you going to prove that
Yossie Shmolovsky is a Boreinu-nik?
>The fact that this doesn't happen tells me that it's a helluva lot more
>prevelant than you think. We know that non-meshichistim are just
>meshichistim who don't believe it's appropriate to publicise their
>beliefs. I'm starting to think that the same may be true of so-called
>non-elokistim among the Lubavitch.
10% is the largest figure I've ever heard for this. Most people
with connections to Chabad that I know say "maybe a minyan", never
that many, and the more prominent ones (such as the late R' Marlow)
have been successfully threatened (if you say Boreinu, we're kicking
you off the beis din - from the old Chasidic gossip rag, Ponim Chaloshos)
>I only think it's offensive that there are ostensibly frum Jews who
>tolerate this kind of avodah zarah. Who daven at Lubavitch places of
>worship and accept Lubavitchers on batei din.
Well, that was R' David Berger's argument - the indifference of the
mainstream Orthodox world to the Elokistic trend in Chabad, e.g.
the sefer Al Hatzaddikim by R' Avraham Pevsner. By tolerating this,
and not ostracising it, by relying on them for much of our kosher
slaughter and inspection, we imply that their position is permitted
within the spectrum of Orthodoxy.
--
Jonathan Baker | Happy birthday, trees!
jjb...@panix.com | Web page <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
Jonathan J. Baker
>Boruch Tkatch wrote:
>> I see this is as an attempt by someone to malign Lubavitchers, since
>> they seem to be an easy target.
>Well, it was not my intention to attack ChaBaD. I was not endorsing any
>of these views, or making any claims about what is and is not proper
>Judaism. I was merely commenting on a phenomenon that I find quite
>interesting. And while it is indeed true that some are using this
>phenomenon to attack Lubavitch (or engage in other less-than-salubrious
>activities), this does not mean the phenomenon is not real.
Look, it's a common Lubav tactic to malign critics of Meshichism and Elokism
as follows:
1) they're attacking chabad (no, they're attacking one idea embraced by some
chabadniks)
2) they were against Chabad before the Rebbe's passing, therefore their
words are to be discounted. (not necessarily true. Certainly not
true of R' David Berger, who makes clear in his book that he had
worked with Chabad on outreach and yeshiva programs before 1991.)
Yisroel Markov
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>ey.m...@iname.com (Yisroel Markov) writes:
>
>
>>
>> I am currently watching a few mashikhists on another forum try to
>> determine the authorship of a bit of scanned text. Current theory is
>> that it comes from the ma'amorim of Rebbe Ra"ShaB, that's three rebbes
>> back. Check it out (Hebrew):
>> http://static.flickr.com/38/102627853_3382268f71_o.jpg
>>
>> If this is authentic... well.
>>
>
>Out of curiosity, what does this say (a summary, no need to translate
>the whole thing)?
If I understand it correctly (the bottom half of the document is
missing in this scan), it is taking a rejected view expressed in
Gemara Sanhedrin by Hillel the Younger - which is that the messianic
prophecies have been fulfilled through King Hizkiyahu, and therefore
the future redemption will be performed by God Himself, without a
human agent - and blends it with the accepted view that a human
Mashiakh is yet to come, to conclude that this future human Mashiakh
will actually be God incarnate. (Or however you want to understand the
expression "the essence of the Holy One clothed in a body.")
Don Levey
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:44:21 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>
> >ey.m...@iname.com (Yisroel Markov) writes:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I am currently watching a few mashikhists on another forum try to
> >> determine the authorship of a bit of scanned text. Current theory is
> >> that it comes from the ma'amorim of Rebbe Ra"ShaB, that's three rebbes
> >> back. Check it out (Hebrew):
> >> http://static.flickr.com/38/102627853_3382268f71_o.jpg
> >>
> >> If this is authentic... well.
> >>
> >
> >Out of curiosity, what does this say (a summary, no need to translate
> >the whole thing)?
>
> If I understand it correctly (the bottom half of the document is
> missing in this scan), it is taking a rejected view expressed in
> Gemara Sanhedrin by Hillel the Younger - which is that the messianic
> prophecies have been fulfilled through King Hizkiyahu, and therefore
> the future redemption will be performed by God Himself, without a
> human agent - and blends it with the accepted view that a human
> Mashiakh is yet to come, to conclude that this future human Mashiakh
> will actually be God incarnate. (Or however you want to understand the
> expression "the essence of the Holy One clothed in a body.")
>
It sounds very... "new testament"-ish.
q_q_an...@yahoo.co.uk
Sayid Abu Khamr al-Murtad wrote:
thanks, that's a very itneresting post.
I have heard that the late Lubavitcher Rebbe told Rav Kaduri that he
would live to meet moshiach.
(note, I also read that rav kaduri did indeed met moshiach, he carries
a magen dovid which he uses to conceal his identity). I guess
according to that, rav kaduri didnt' live to welcome him.
It'd be funny if The rebbe meant "you're meeting him now" ;-)
Is this really all that controversial? I think I read somewhere
something about some people believing that the Ari was going to be
moshiach ben yosef. Maybe the soul of the rebbe will be the soul of
moshiach. It'd be a different body, and perhaps even an evolved soul.
The problem is in people thinking he was moshiach even then, or that
he's not dead.
The Creedmoor Chronicler
More debate of a complete and total non-issue. I happen to know the names of
all 5 elokists/boreinuniks (including the deceased one and the Shabak plant)
and a sixth borderliner. They are not even worth a sigh except that the
Shabak plant has committed assault and battery that shortened the life of a
highly respected non-meshichist Chabad rabbi in Tzfas.
The Creedmoor Chronicler
"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@iname.com> wrote in > The boreiniks and those
> not be Mashiakh - the anti-Mashikhists - are a tiny sliver among these
> two factions.
And the biggest faction are those who may or may not say Yechi, hardly care
whether the guy next to them does, and are too busy living lives that
include doing their best to bring Moshiach, to care about any of this dreck.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Thanks for the reality check.
Abe Kohen
>
> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah, the
> Lubavitchers
> were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach. The Yeshivah then began
> expelling all
> Lubavitchers. Shneerson then apparently put a stop to it.
Why were the Lubavs learning in Mir? Didn't they have a Lubav yeshiva.
BTW, when I was in Kamenitz, the principal wanted me to "transfer to Mirrer
Yeshiva" because there was no place in Kamenitz for "boys who talk to girls
on 14th Avenue on Shabbes." (The snitch rebbe had mistakenly given the
principal my name.)
Thank God, I later moved to Israel and learned to do a lot more with girls
than just talk.
Shavua Tov,
Abe
2-25-06
The Creedmoor Chronicler
"Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dtg1c2$mub$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah, the
>> Lubavitchers
> were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach.
Rabbi Schneerson, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe, if you please.
Henry Goodman
in message news:dtslqe$pa9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
You forgot to add z"l
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Henry Goodman
"Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dtskio$luq$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Does this imply that 14th Ave on weekdays is OK or talking to girls
elsewhere on Shabbos is allowed.
Can you tell us the halachik thinking behind this?
Joel Shurkin
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
> "The Creedmoor Chronicler" <itzi...@shygetzaroys.verizon.net> wrote
> in message news:dtslqe$pa9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >
> > "Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
> > news:dtg1c2$mub$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > >> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah,
> the
> > >> Lubavitchers
> > > were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach.
> >
> > Rabbi Schneerson, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe, if you please.
>
> You forgot to add z"l
I was told he wasn't dead. Was I misinformed?
J
--
Joel N. Shurkin
Baltimore, Maryland
Broken Genius
The Rise and Fall of William Shockley, father of the Electronic Age
Macmillan
June
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> In article <dtsmv5$rg1$2...@falcon.steinthal.us>,
> "Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> "The Creedmoor Chronicler" <itzi...@shygetzaroys.verizon.net> wrote
>> in message news:dtslqe$pa9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>> >
>> > "Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> > news:dtg1c2$mub$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> > >> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah,
>> the
>> > >> Lubavitchers
>> > > were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach.
>> >
>> > Rabbi Schneerson, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe, if you please.
>>
>> You forgot to add z"l
>
> I was told he wasn't dead. Was I misinformed?
I saw him just last week at the 7-11 standing next to Elvis :-)
Josh
Abe Kohen
> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> wrote
Boro Park, Brooklyn in the mid 60s: Friday night the UO would walk 13th
Avenue, Shabbat the walk would be on 14th Avenue. Everybody would go
shaptzirin. One had to walk off the chulent in the afternoon. Twas a time
young men/boys would walk in groups and young women/girls would walk in
groups. Sometimes the eyes would meet. Sometimes a smile was cast. And some
boys would stop and TALK with the girls. Now this was stricly verboten in
most yeshivot. Weekdays we were in Yeshiva all day long, so there was no
possibilty to engage in such behavior b'farhesia.
Thank God, I no longer live in such an environment.
Best,
Abe
2-26-06
yaco...@aol.com
Save for the derekh eres of not telling anyone about it.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> "Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote
>>
>> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah, the
>> Lubavitchers
>> were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach. The Yeshivah then began
>> expelling all
>> Lubavitchers. Shneerson then apparently put a stop to it.
>
> Why were the Lubavs learning in Mir? Didn't they have a Lubav yeshiva.
>
> BTW, when I was in Kamenitz, the principal wanted me to "transfer to Mirrer
> Yeshiva" because there was no place in Kamenitz for "boys who talk to girls
> on 14th Avenue on Shabbes." (The snitch rebbe had mistakenly given the
> principal my name.)
ROTFL!!! You should have snuck into the basement of the Shomrei Emunah
on the corner of 52nd Street like everybody else :-)
Josh
Abe Kohen
"Joel Shurkin" <shu...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:shurkin-7FEE2D...@news.verizon.net...
> In article <dtsmv5$rg1$2...@falcon.steinthal.us>,
> "Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> "The Creedmoor Chronicler" <itzi...@shygetzaroys.verizon.net> wrote
>> in message news:dtslqe$pa9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>> >
>> > "Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> > news:dtg1c2$mub$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> > >> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah,
>> the
>> > >> Lubavitchers
>> > > were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach.
>> >
>> > Rabbi Schneerson, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe, if you please.
>>
>> You forgot to add z"l
>
> I was told he wasn't dead. Was I misinformed?
The reference is clearly to the 60s when Rabbi Schneerson was clearly alive.
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
> In article <dtskio$luq$1...@falcon.steinthal.us>, "Abe Kohen"
> <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>> "Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote
>>>
>>> I remember in the 60s when in I was learning in Mirrer Yeshivah, the
>>> Lubavitchers
>>> were beginning to call Shneerson Moshiach. The Yeshivah then began
>>> expelling all
>>> Lubavitchers. Shneerson then apparently put a stop to it.
>>
>> Why were the Lubavs learning in Mir? Didn't they have a Lubav yeshiva.
>>
>> BTW, when I was in Kamenitz, the principal wanted me to "transfer to
>> Mirrer
>> Yeshiva" because there was no place in Kamenitz for "boys who talk to
>> girls
>> on 14th Avenue on Shabbes." (The snitch rebbe had mistakenly given the
>> principal my name.)
>
>
> ROTFL!!! You should have snuck into the basement of the Shomrei Emunah
> on the corner of 52nd Street like everybody else :-)
Occasionally, I'ld visit a cousin in Williamsburg where no Kamenitzer snitch
could observe.
Oy. Thank God, I lost my shyness (and else) in Israel.
q_q_an...@yahoo.co.uk
SOURCE
The Creedmoor Chronicler
Yes.
Chano
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:dtsq3d$36d$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
snipped for brevity
>> I was told he wasn't dead. Was I misinformed?
>
>
> I saw him just last week at the 7-11 standing next to Elvis :-)
Don't be ridiculous! ........... Elvis was in Morrisons supermarket packing
shelves.
--
Chano
>
> Josh
>
>
>>
>> J