Sabbos dinner?
Linda
it correctly) by the owner of the company I work for. We are not
particularly religious in any sense but our background is roman
catholic. I am honored to be invited and I feel that I shouldnt pass
this invitation up. The problem is, I have no idea what to expect...
Any feedback would be appreciated.. I would like to go, but kind of
fear the unknown..
Tim Meushaw
No need to fear, there's probably only a few rituals you'll need to be
warned about. You didn't specify if the owner is Orthodox or not, but
I'll post as though he is as that's all I know. As a note of
introduction, if the owner knows you're not Jewish, then he won't expect
you to be prepared for any of it and he'll be explaining everything as
they go along. BTW, proper spelling is "Shabbos" or "Shabbat."
Depending on when you arrive, the owner might not be back from synagogue
yet (if he goes on Friday night). When he returns, or when you arrive,
it might be a bit before dinner starts, as last minute preparations
might be taking place. When it's time to sit down, everyone might
sing a couple of songs (if Orthodox, probably in Hebrew, for others,
I'm not sure), welcoming the Sabbath. Then it's time for Kiddush.
This article <http://www.jewish-holiday.com/shabbatkabbala.html> has
some info on that. Basically, follow the head of the household's lead;
if he stands, stand, if he doesn't, don't. He'll recite some passages
in Hebrew over a cup of wine, then pass out some for everyone to drink.
BTW, if they ask you not to pour your own wine but ask someone else to
do it for you, listen to them; there's a kosher stringency with wine
about it being poured by non-Jews that some, but not all, people hold.
After the wine, everyone will get up and go to the kitchen to wash hands
using a two-handled cup. They'll show you how it's done if they expect
you to wash. After washing, you're not allowed to talk; just return to
the table and take your seat. After another blessing said over the
bread, bread will be passed to everyone. After you've eaten (wait for
others to do so), you can talk again. Then it's just a normal dinner.
During dinner, some songs might be sung about the Sabbath, either in
English or Hebrew. After dinner, prayers are said/sung thanking God for
the food (you'll notice that unlike in Catholicism, God is thanked for
the food after the meal; the blessings before the meal are more
acknowleging that God made the food originally, as in causing the wheat
to grow from the ground). If those prayers are done in Hebrew, no one
will expect you to join in; if they give you a prayerbook in both Hebrew
and English, I usually encourage guests to follow along with the
blessings on the English side so they can feel as though they're
participating in what's going on as well.
That's about it, really. It won't be too bad, and I'm sure they'll do
all the explaining for anything you have to worry about. And if you're
unsure about anything, ask them, as they'd love to explain it to you.
Hope that helps,
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Le gar?on Au Cheveux De Lin
> I would like to go, but kind of
> fear the unknown..
I wouldn't worry. he probably just wants to have dinner with you!
Other than a short blessing before the meal, and a l-o-n-g one after,
you'll just be having dinner with them.
For folks who keep Kosher, it's hard for him to have dinner in other
people's homes, that's why it's most convinient for him to have guests
over at his house.
He's not going to try to convert you. That just isn't done within
Judaism.
Tonibaruch
>
> Hope that helps,
> Tim
>
A very helpful article indeed, Tim.
Since I have been both :-) I'd just add that there's nothing wrong for a
Roman Catholic in joining a jewish prayer thanking G-d (who is G-d for RC
too) for the gift of shabbath and for the food.
The reverse side would be much more problematic, as a Jew obviously can't
join in any prayer direct to JC.
Tb
cindys
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc7qfeu....@athens.meushaw.com...
Great post, but you forgot one thing...if Linda would like to bring him a
thank you gift for having her as a dinner guest, she should bring it before
sunset, as we are prohibited from accepting gifts on the Sabbath and also it
should be a non-food item unless it is something store-bought in a sealed
package and carries a kosher mark she knows the host finds acceptable. She
should not bring any wine unless it's a kosher brand.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Z
<ti...@yahoo.com> writes
>My husband and I have been invited to Sabbos dinner (if I am spelling
>it correctly) by the owner of the company I work for. We are not
>particularly religious in any sense but our background is roman
>catholic. I am honored to be invited and I feel that I shouldnt pass
>this invitation up. The problem is, I have no idea what to expect...
Cholent.
--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
cindys
"Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:odivw406...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
Not on Friday night :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Chano
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eucfc.48837$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
...and mevushal
Chano
cindys
"Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c5k2nk$tj9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
snippage for brevity
> > Great post, but you forgot one thing...if Linda would like to bring him
a
> > thank you gift for having her as a dinner guest, she should bring it
> before
> > sunset, as we are prohibited from accepting gifts on the Sabbath and
also
> it
> > should be a non-food item unless it is something store-bought in a
sealed
> > package and carries a kosher mark she knows the host finds acceptable.
> She
> > should not bring any wine unless it's a kosher brand.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
> >
>
> ...and mevushal
-----
It wasn't an oversight. The word "mevushal" would not mean anything to this
poster, and depending on where she shops, it may not mean anything to the
proprietor of the shop where she purchases the wine either. I just thought
it would be easier to focus on the kosher part, and figured if she ended up
bringing a non-mevushal wine, the host could just put it away for another
day (or he could do all the pouring himself), but if she brought a mamash
treif wine, that would be utterly useless to him at any time (and no that
was not a cow pun :-).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
> do it for you, listen to them; there's a kosher stringency with wine
> about it being poured by non-Jews that some, but not all, people hold.
This is NOT due to an imagined "inferiority" of non-Jews!!
(Just thought I'd throw that in)
Susan
Susan Cohen
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eucfc.48837$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> thank you gift for having her as a dinner guest, she should bring it
before
> sunset, as we are prohibited from accepting gifts on the Sabbath and also
it
> should be a non-food item unless it is something store-bought in a sealed
> package and carries a kosher mark she knows the host finds acceptable.
She
> should not bring any wine unless it's a kosher brand.
Flowers for the hostess are always acceptable & correct.
Susan
cindys
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Rkhfc.31901$F9.1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
As long as she brings them before candlelighting. They can't be accepted
after shabbos begins or be placed in water. A plant is even more problematic
since it is a growing thing.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Linda
already. I wasn't really afraid of them trying to convert us, I have
worked for this guy for 8 or 9 years and I wouldnt expect such a thing
at all. I guess it was just fear of the unknown... I feel better with
a kind of picture in my mind of what may go on etc...
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
But these must be brought BEFORE Shabbat since cut flowers on Shabbat
are "muktzeh".
Josh
>
> Susan
>
Eliyahu Rooff
"Linda" <ti...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com...
Great! Hope you have a pleasant evening, and please let us know how
it went.
Eliyahu
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5ka30$68d$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Aside from any issues of someone bringing a floral gift on shabbos, I
thought that it was permissible to handle cut flowers on shabbos as long as
they weren't in water, i.e. let's suppose I have cut flowers on my table in
a vase WITHOUT water. I'm not permitted to move the vase and flowers to
another location in the room?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
You may be done here, but we're not. This thread could potentially continue
for several more days :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
Well, yeah - I was *adding* onto what Cindy wrote, not trying to supercede
it.
Susan
cindys
I just assumed your focus was that a non-food item would avoid kashrus
issues (which it would).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Chano
Several more days? waddya mean? Shabbos dinner can go on for years.
Chano
cindys
You're not planning to punjack the thread are you?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
No. The very act of holding/grasping 2-3 cut flowers in your hand on
shabbat may involve the Toraitic prohibition (AV MELACHA) of M'AMER.
See: Aruch haShulchan OC 340 #2 who laments how most people are unaware
of this "issur d'oraita"; Mishna Brura OC 340 s"k 37.
Josh
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
Abe Kouris
> ti...@yahoo.com (Linda) wrote in message news:<1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > I would like to go, but kind of
> > fear the unknown..
>
> I wouldn't worry. he probably just wants to have dinner with you!
>
> Other than a short blessing before the meal, and a l-o-n-g one after,
> you'll just be having dinner with them.
The host ("The Papa!! Tradition!!) may give a short homelitical Torah
lesson ("d'rash") at some point during the meal. If it's a
Lubavtacher chasid, you might get one between each course. There will
also be singing of special songs set to medeival Jewish poetry
("z'miros") sung during the meal.
>
> For folks who keep Kosher, it's hard for him to have dinner in other
> people's homes, that's why it's most convinient for him to have guests
> over at his house.
>
> He's not going to try to convert you. That just isn't done within
> Judaism.
Well, that's not entirely true. If a non-Jew is persistent enough, he
or she can convert to Judaism. But your host isn't going to be
pitching conversion to you.
On the other hand, a guest who _is_ Jewish can expect a cetain amount
of (usually) low-key pitch to become observant if they're invited to
many "right-wing" (in the religious sense) Orthodox Shabbos dinners.
I know this from personal experience. It is a phenomenon called
"kiruv" (outreach), perfected by the Chabad (Lubavatcher) chasidim,
thoughit's now practiced by other orthodox groups.
Abe
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> as a dinner guest, she should bring it before sunset, as we are
>> prohibited from accepting gifts on the Sabbath and also it should
>> be a non-food item unless it is something store-bought in a sealed
>> package and carries a kosher mark she knows the host finds
>> acceptable. She should not bring any wine unless it's a kosher
>> brand.
>
> Flowers for the hostess are always acceptable & correct.
We had a guest for the last night of Yom Tov. The first meal with no
family. She brought a sealed bottle of wine _and_ flowers, _before_
Yom Tov. She obviously knows her P's and Q's.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> But these must be brought BEFORE Shabbat since cut flowers on
> Shabbat are "muktzeh".
Are you saying that we may not move a vase of cut flowers on Shabbos?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> are "muktzeh".
> ------------
> Aside from any issues of someone bringing a floral gift on shabbos, I
> thought that it was permissible to handle cut flowers on shabbos as long as
> they weren't in water, i.e. let's suppose I have cut flowers on my table in
> a vase WITHOUT water. I'm not permitted to move the vase and flowers to
> another location in the room?
I'm wondering even if they are in water.
cindys
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> >> But these must be brought BEFORE Shabbat since cut flowers on Shabbat
> >> are "muktzeh".
> > ------------
> > Aside from any issues of someone bringing a floral gift on shabbos, I
> > thought that it was permissible to handle cut flowers on shabbos as long
as
> > they weren't in water, i.e. let's suppose I have cut flowers on my table
in
> > a vase WITHOUT water. I'm not permitted to move the vase and flowers to
> > another location in the room?
>
> I'm wondering even if they are in water.
It may be okay depending on the circumstances. I checked Rabbi Ribiat's _39
Melachos_. Here is what it says (although I did not check Rabbi Ribiat's
sources):
[All notes in square brackets are mine]
Placing Detached Flowers in Water: Once a plant is fully detached from its
root or stem, it is no longer a living plant. Consequently, zoraya [sowing]
me'doraisa [from the torah] can no longer apply. Nevertheless, there are
rabbinical restrictions on watering and preserving these plants because
watering can lend to the outward appearance of zoraya. (There are other
shabbos restrictions as well). This problem applies especially to preserving
flowers and similar decorative plants, as shall be explained further.
Placing Unopened Flowers in Water: A bouquet of flowers is ordinarily not
muktzah. However, if the flowers have not fully bloomed, they may not be set
or even replaced in water on shabbos, because this will cause the flowers to
bloom more fully. Causing flowers or plants (even detached) to bloom more
fully is a form of zoraya m'derabonon. [i.e. it is considered sowing by
rabbinic prohibition but not by torah prohibition].
Preserving Fully Bloomed Flowers in Water: According to some poskim
[halachic decisors], even fully bloomed flowers may not be placed in a vase
of water for the first time on shabbos because this has the appearance of
zoraya. Flowers being placed in water for the first time appear like plants
that are being watered and cultivated.
Bringing fresh water to a vase and filling (or refilling) it on shabbos is
also forbidden because of the restriction of tircha (excessive exertion on
shabbos), an additional, unrelated rabbinic restriction. Placing any kind of
flowers in water on shabbos should therefore be avoided.
Replacing flowers that were removed from the Vase: Flowers that were already
in water before shabbos, but were somehow removed or fell out during shabbos
may be replaced in the vase. This is different from putting them in water
for the first time, because preparation of the water and vase is regarded
as a significant measure of effort (tircha), which is rabbinically
prohibited. However, merely reinserting the flowers into the existing vase
of water is not prohibited. Placing fully bloomed flowers in water is not
zoraya because they can no longer grow. The water merely preserves them.
Note: Flowers, plants, grass, leaves, etc. are muktza and may not be handled
unless they were specifically designated for use (e.g. decoration) before
shabbos.
Removing flowers from a vase: Flowers that were placed in water (whether
fully bloomed or not) may be removed on shabbos.
According to Josh's post, there is a problem with holding/grasping several
stems together on shabbos. This may constitute the av melacha of m'amer
[gathering].
[Cindy S. comment: The prohibition regarding putting the flowers in a vase
of water was discussed at length on my Aish Hatorah tape. The focus of the
discussion was why putting the water in the vase is considered prohibited on
the basis of tircha (exertion), when realistically putting water in a vase
requires very little exertion. IIRC, the rabbi on the tape didn't have an
answer, but I don't think the issue of zoraya was raised in the context of
cut flowers being placed in a vase of water. Also, the implication from the
tape (or maybe it was stated outright.. I can't recall and would have to
listen to it again), was that it was okay to put the cut flowers in a vase
without water. Obviously, not all poskim hold this way.
Also, it would seem, based on the above, that if the cut flowers are
designated for shabbos (not muktzah) and gathered pre-shabbos (no m'amer)
and placed in a vase filled with water pre-shabbos (no zoraya), there would
be no prohibition on moving the vase with the flowers from one location to
another on shabbos. But this is only my own deduction, and I am not a
posek.]
USUAL DISCLAIMER: THIS IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION ONLY. PLEASE CYLOR.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5laep$aji$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
I was aware of the prohibition of m'amer, but would not have thought of it
in connection with holding flowers or putting them in a vase. I think of
m'amer more in terms of gathering up toys or a spilled basket of fruit or
something like that. Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
p_al...@hotmail.com
> The very act of holding/grasping 2-3 cut flowers in your hand on
> shabbat may involve the Toraitic prohibition (AV MELACHA) of M'AMER.
> See: Aruch haShulchan OC 340 #2 who laments how most people are unaware
> of this "issur d'oraita"; Mishna Brura OC 340 s"k 37.
Would this apply if the bunch of flowers is already tied together?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>> <fla...@verizon.net> writes:
>>> > "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
snip
>>> > Flowers for the hostess are always acceptable & correct.
>>>
>>> But these must be brought BEFORE Shabbat since cut flowers on Shabbat
>>> are "muktzeh".
>> ------------
>> Aside from any issues of someone bringing a floral gift on shabbos, I
>> thought that it was permissible to handle cut flowers on shabbos as long as
>> they weren't in water, i.e. let's suppose I have cut flowers on my table in
>> a vase WITHOUT water. I'm not permitted to move the vase and flowers to
>> another location in the room?
>
> No. The very act of holding/grasping 2-3 cut flowers in your hand on
> shabbat may involve the Toraitic prohibition (AV MELACHA) of M'AMER.
> See: Aruch haShulchan OC 340 #2 who laments how most people are unaware
> of this "issur d'oraita"; Mishna Brura OC 340 s"k 37.
But what about the cut flowers already in a vase. May I move the
vase from place to place on Shabbos. (Assuming the vase has water).
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
The prohibition of ME'AMER is only for "gidulei karka" (anything that
grows from the ground that has not been cooked or ground). Actually,
picking up spilled fruit ON YOUR TABLE is perfectly OK.
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5m2il$6kn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
I was envisioning a basket of fruit that falls on the floor with apples and
oranges rolling all over the place. Thank you for clarifying this. Now,
again, I am left to wonder what the rabbi on the Aish Hatorah tape was
talking about. I think that rabbi said that collecting fruit spilled on the
floor was assur (prohibited), but every time one of these topics comes up, I
am finding that the tape is often at odds with the halacha cited by you and
by others on this forum. Sometimes the information on the tape is more
machmir (strict), sometimes more makil (lenient). The rabbi on the tape also
stated that it was assur to cut up different kinds of fruit to make a fruit
salad on shabbos (even in large pieces) because it constituted "creating
something new," but it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.When
I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of such thing.
(This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't paskening.). What
is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the fruit for a mixed fruit
salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am not asking Josh to pasken - this is
just conversation).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
I think the answer is you can move it provided the flowers/vase/water is
muchan (specifically prepared/designated for shabbos decoration). Otherwise,
it would be muktzah. But obviously, I will defer to Josh's response on this.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
It would seem to me "no" since there is no IMUR ACHAREI IMUR.
Josh
Henry Goodman
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bWefc.48912$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> "Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:odivw406...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com>,
Linda
> > <ti...@yahoo.com> writes
> > >My husband and I have been invited to Sabbos dinner (if I am
spelling
> > >it correctly) by the owner of the company I work for. We are not
> > >particularly religious in any sense but our background is roman
> > >catholic. I am honored to be invited and I feel that I shouldnt
pass
> > >this invitation up. The problem is, I have no idea what to
expect...
> >
> > Cholent.
> ----------
> Not on Friday night :-)
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
I don't think Linda specified whether it was Friday night or Saturday
lunch.
I agree Friday night is more likely.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
>
Nick Landau
>
snip,snip
I am wondering what the originator of this posting ie a non-Jew who has been
invited to a Jewish boss for Shabbat lunch is going to be making of this
discussion regarding the lacunae of Jewish Orthodox practice.
Nick
cindys
"Nick Landau" <n.la...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c5mltt$dd7$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
She probably thinks we're crazy :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:c5mls5$te8$2...@falcon.steinthal.us...
She said "shabbos dinner." I guess I assumed that if she meant lunch, she
would have said "lunch." Then, again, in some parts of the U.S. (I'm
assuming Linda lives in the U.S.), the midday meal is called "dinner" and
the evening meal is called "supper." It reminds me of a story my sister told
when she first moved to the midwest. On the first day that she brought her
young daughter to day care (it was around noon), the day care provider asked
"Has she had her dinner yet?" My sister thought this question was extremely
odd and responded: "No, she hasn't even had her lunch yet."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
But only ONE at a time. You can NOT grasp/hold more than 1 at a time
since this engenders the biblical prohibition of ME'AMER (see my earlier
post quoting the Aruch haShulchan how most people are unaware of this
prohibition.
The fact that Ribiat didn't place a serious warning here is regretable.
> for the first time, because preparation of the water and vase is regarded
> as a significant measure of effort (tircha), which is rabbinically
> prohibited. However, merely reinserting the flowers into the existing vase
> of water is not prohibited. Placing fully bloomed flowers in water is not
> zoraya because they can no longer grow. The water merely preserves them.
>
> Note: Flowers, plants, grass, leaves, etc. are muktza and may not be handled
> unless they were specifically designated for use (e.g. decoration) before
> shabbos.
>
> Removing flowers from a vase: Flowers that were placed in water (whether
> fully bloomed or not) may be removed on shabbos.
>
> According to Josh's post, there is a problem with holding/grasping several
> stems together on shabbos. This may constitute the av melacha of m'amer
> [gathering].
>
Not "may" but DOES.
> [Cindy S. comment: The prohibition regarding putting the flowers in a vase
> of water was discussed at length on my Aish Hatorah tape. The focus of the
> discussion was why putting the water in the vase is considered prohibited on
> the basis of tircha (exertion), when realistically putting water in a vase
> requires very little exertion. IIRC, the rabbi on the tape didn't have an
> answer, but I don't think the issue of zoraya was raised in the context of
> cut flowers being placed in a vase of water. Also, the implication from the
> tape (or maybe it was stated outright.. I can't recall and would have to
> listen to it again), was that it was okay to put the cut flowers in a vase
> without water. Obviously, not all poskim hold this way.
>
> Also, it would seem, based on the above, that if the cut flowers are
> designated for shabbos (not muktzah) and gathered pre-shabbos (no m'amer)
> and placed in a vase filled with water pre-shabbos (no zoraya), there would
> be no prohibition on moving the vase with the flowers from one location to
> another on shabbos. But this is only my own deduction, and I am not a
> posek.]
>
> USUAL DISCLAIMER: THIS IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSION ONLY. PLEASE CYLOR.
>
Henry Goodman
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wYCfc.56396$M3.4...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
I don't know why you assume Linda lives in the U.S. but the same
distinctions apply in different parts of the UK. In my house we
usually call the midday meal "lunch" and the evening meal "supper"
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5n08u$9rm$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Okay.
> > for the first time, because preparation of the water and vase is
regarded
> > as a significant measure of effort (tircha), which is rabbinically
> > prohibited. However, merely reinserting the flowers into the existing
vase
> > of water is not prohibited. Placing fully bloomed flowers in water is
not
> > zoraya because they can no longer grow. The water merely preserves them.
> >
> > Note: Flowers, plants, grass, leaves, etc. are muktza and may not be
handled
> > unless they were specifically designated for use (e.g. decoration)
before
> > shabbos.
> >
> > Removing flowers from a vase: Flowers that were placed in water (whether
> > fully bloomed or not) may be removed on shabbos.
> >
> > According to Josh's post, there is a problem with holding/grasping
several
> > stems together on shabbos. This may constitute the av melacha of m'amer
> > [gathering].
> >
>
> Not "may" but DOES.
I said "may" only because I was under the impression that there may be some
poskim who held otherwise (not that m'amer was permitted but that grasping
several stems was not m'amer).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
>
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:wYCfc.56396$M3.4...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> lunch, she
> > would have said "lunch." Then, again, in some parts of the U.S.
> (I'm
> > assuming Linda lives in the U.S.), the midday meal is called
> "dinner" and
> > the evening meal is called "supper." It reminds me of a story my
> sister told
> > when she first moved to the midwest. On the first day that she
> brought her
> > young daughter to day care (it was around noon), the day care
> provider asked
> > "Has she had her dinner yet?" My sister thought this question was
> extremely
> > odd and responded: "No, she hasn't even had her lunch yet."
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> I don't know why you assume Linda lives in the U.S.
The numbers lean in that direction.
Susan
Z
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes
>
>"Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:odivw406...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com>, Linda
>> <ti...@yahoo.com> writes
>> >My husband and I have been invited to Sabbos dinner (if I am spelling
>> >it correctly) by the owner of the company I work for. We are not
>> >particularly religious in any sense but our background is roman
>> >catholic. I am honored to be invited and I feel that I shouldnt pass
>> >this invitation up. The problem is, I have no idea what to expect...
>>
>> Cholent.
>----------
>Not on Friday night :-)
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
Hillel Sabba Markowitz
> "Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:odivw406...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com>, Linda
> > <ti...@yahoo.com> writes
> > >My husband and I have been invited to Sabbos dinner (if I am spelling
> > >it correctly) by the owner of the company I work for. We are not
> > >particularly religious in any sense but our background is roman
> > >catholic. I am honored to be invited and I feel that I shouldnt pass
> > >this invitation up. The problem is, I have no idea what to expect...
> >
> > Cholent.
> ----------
> Not on Friday night :-)
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Of course some people love to sneak into the kitchen to "steal" some
cholent Friday night. But that is usually late after most people are
asleep. Some Yeshivahs actually make an extra pot or so of cholent
for the boys to "steal".
Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
lives.
Some people have thought that it is a result of poverty. This way you
get two courses of food out of the same chicken (with vegetables).
That is the delicious soup and then the main dish of chicken.
In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
chicken soup.
--
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
Sabba....@verizon.net | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
Eliyahu Rooff
"Hillel Sabba Markowitz" <Sabba....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:927a0385.04041...@posting.google.com...
problem with serving leftovers for Shabbat?
Eliyahu
Don Levey
>
> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
> lives.
>
>...
> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
> chicken soup.
>
Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
try to serve it.
--
Don Levey "It could have happened to anyone with a
Framingham, MA genius IQ and access to unstable chemicals"
NOTE: email server uses spam filters.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
>
>>
>> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
>> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
>> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
>> lives.
>>
>>...
>> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
>> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
>> chicken soup.
>>
> Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
> however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
> try to serve it.
Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
Josh
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>>
>
> I am wondering what the originator of this posting ie a non-Jew who
> has been invited to a Jewish boss for Shabbat lunch is going to be
> making of this discussion
IINM, the OP thanked us for the discussion.
> regarding the lacunae of Jewish Orthodox practice.
Umm that's a big word you used so I looked it up. I don't think it's
the word you wanted.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>> Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
>>
>>> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
>>> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
>>> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
>>> lives.
>>>
>>> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
>>> chicken soup.
>>>
>> Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
>> however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
>> try to serve it.
>
> Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
I've heard a rumor, probably UL, that any restaurant or caterer
who serves vegetable soup on Friday night will have their kashrus
certification rescinded!
cindys
> > "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> >>
> > snip,snip
> >
> > I am wondering what the originator of this posting ie a non-Jew who
> > has been invited to a Jewish boss for Shabbat lunch is going to be
> > making of this discussion
>
> IINM, the OP thanked us for the discussion.
>
> > regarding the lacunae of Jewish Orthodox practice.
>
> Umm that's a big word you used so I looked it up. I don't think it's
> the word you wanted.
I suspect he meant "minutiae" which are small details. "Lacunae" would be
small parts which are missing.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
snip
>> >>>> > Flowers for the hostess are always acceptable & correct.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But these must be brought BEFORE Shabbat since cut flowers on
>> >>>> Shabbat are "muktzeh".
>> >>> ------------
>> >>> Aside from any issues of someone bringing a floral gift on
>> >>> shabbos, I thought that it was permissible to handle cut
>> >>> flowers on shabbos as long as they weren't in water, i.e.
>> >>> let's suppose I have cut flowers on my table in a vase WITHOUT
>> >>> water. I'm not permitted to move the vase and flowers to
>> >>> another location in the room?
>> >>
>> >> No. The very act of holding/grasping 2-3 cut flowers in your
>> >> hand on shabbat may involve the Toraitic prohibition (AV
>> >> MELACHA) of M'AMER. See: Aruch haShulchan OC 340 #2 who laments
>> >> how most people are unaware of this "issur d'oraita"; Mishna
>> >> Brura OC 340 s"k 37.
Josh, in a different post you correct Cindy for say "may be m'amer"
rather than "definitely is m'amer". Yet in this post, that's exactly
what you did. I think saying "may" is indeed preferable since there
may be other issues involved. You wouldn't want someone to bring a
"chatos" unnecessarily, would you? :-)
>> > --------------
>> > I was aware of the prohibition of m'amer, but would not have thought of
>> > it in connection with holding flowers or putting them in a vase. I think of
>> > m'amer more in terms of gathering up toys or a spilled basket of fruit
>> > or something like that. Thank you.
>>
>> The prohibition of ME'AMER is only for "gidulei karka" (anything that
>> grows from the ground that has not been cooked or ground). Actually,
>> picking up spilled fruit ON YOUR TABLE is perfectly OK.
> -------
> I was envisioning a basket of fruit that falls on the floor with apples and
> oranges rolling all over the place. Thank you for clarifying this. Now,
> again, I am left to wonder what the rabbi on the Aish Hatorah tape was
> talking about. I think that rabbi said that collecting fruit spilled on the
> floor was assur (prohibited), but every time one of these topics comes up, I
> am finding that the tape is often at odds with the halacha cited by you and
> by others on this forum. Sometimes the information on the tape is more
> machmir (strict), sometimes more makil (lenient).
That's why you should choose one Rav and abide by all his rulings.
> The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
> different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
> large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
> it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
> When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
> such thing.
Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
cindys
<snippage for brevity>
> > The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
> > different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
> > large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
> > it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
> > When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
> > such thing.
>
> Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
>
> > (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
> > paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
> > fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
> > not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>
> I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
> that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
> cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
----------------
I am projecting that the rabbi on the tape would say that it's not the same
as the fruit. In the case of the cold cuts on the platter, they remain
discreet entities. If you wanted to make an analogy with the fruit, you
would have to mix the cold cuts together to create a new entity called a
"cold cut salad." The same would apply to the cakes on the plate.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Chano
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5t0gg$o9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <m3brlrr...@dauphin.the-leveys.us>, Don Levey
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
> > Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
> >
> >>
> >> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
> >> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
> >> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
> >> lives.
> >>
> >>...
> >> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
> >> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
> >> chicken soup.
> >>
> > Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
> > however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
> > try to serve it.
>
>
> Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
Mit lokshen!!
Chano
cindys
"Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c5tb3b$cmi$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:c5t0gg$o9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> > In article <m3brlrr...@dauphin.the-leveys.us>, Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
> > > Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night.
While
> > >> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos,
noone
> > >> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
> > >> lives.
> > >>
> > >>...
> > >> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
> > >> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
> > >> chicken soup.
> > >>
> > > Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
> > > however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
> > > try to serve it.
> >
> >
> > Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
>
> Mit lokshen!!
>
It all depends...are you "creating something new?" ;-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>> > Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
>> >
>> >> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
>> >> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
>> >> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
>> >> lives.
>> >>
>> >>...
>> >> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
>> >> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
>> >> chicken soup.
>> >>
>> > Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
>> > however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
>> > try to serve it.
>>
>> Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
>
> Mit lokshen!!
So what do you do on Pesach?
Chano
p_al...@hotmail.com
> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
> lives.
>
> Some people have thought that it is a result of poverty. This way you
> get two courses of food out of the same chicken (with vegetables).
> That is the delicious soup and then the main dish of chicken.
>
> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
> chicken soup.
I honestly don't know how someone can talk about "the main tradition
for Friday night". You could talk about your family's tradition.
Maybe you could talk about your community's tradition, if you live in
a community where everyone makes a point of eating chicken soup every
Erev Shabbat.
In my house, the only things on the menu without fail are kiddush and
lechem mishneh (usually braided, but not always). Since traditions
become requirements, and then someon asks their rabbi how many matzo
balls are mandatory per serving of soup, and if soup nuts are
permitted for children below the age of mitzvot, there are no other
required courses over here.
While making chicken soup and a main dish out of the same chicken
might be a good idea for poor people, I wouldn't recommend it unless
one can only afford one chicken and would feel something lacking if
there wasn't both soup and chicken on the table, never mind how the
chicken tastes. Chicken that has been used to make soup and then
roasted is dry and lacking in flavor.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>> >> In article <m3brlrr...@dauphin.the-leveys.us>, Don Levey
>> > <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>> >> > Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
>> >>
>> >> Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
>> >
>> > Mit lokshen!!
>>
>> So what do you do on Pesach?
>
> Pesachdik lokshen !!
My wife makes those phony substitutes also. If you don't _need_
lokshen they're acceptible. But if your de rigeur for the Friday
night meal is chicken soup with lokshen, then the pesachdik stuff
just ain't it.
It's like the story of the fellow who struck it rich and decided he
wanted a yacht. So he bought a beautiful yacht and bought himself a
beautiful captain's uniform to go with it. He invited his mother to
inspect the ship under his "command". She told him; "My dear son, by
me you're a keptain, and by you you're a keptain, but by a keptain,
you're _no_ keptain!"
Chano
Hey Moshe, I think that's the first joke you told on the NG. You win first
prize; a bowl of piping hot (chumetzdik) lokshen soup (with no substitutes)
;-)
Chano
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> Shabbos, noone seems to know why or how chicken soup became such
>> a major part of our lives.
>>
>> Some people have thought that it is a result of poverty. This way you
>> get two courses of food out of the same chicken (with vegetables).
>> That is the delicious soup and then the main dish of chicken.
>>
>> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
>> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday
>> night chicken soup.
>
> I honestly don't know how someone can talk about "the main tradition
> for Friday night".
How long you been on Usenet? :-)
> You could talk about your family's tradition. Maybe you could talk
> about your community's tradition, if you live in a community where
> everyone makes a point of eating chicken soup every Erev Shabbat.
Doesn't everybody? :-)
> In my house, the only things on the menu without fail are kiddush
> and lechem mishneh (usually braided, but not always).
I'm sure last week they were _not_ braided. :-)
> Since traditions become requirements, and then someone asks their
> rabbi how many matzo balls are mandatory per serving of soup, and
> if soup nuts are permitted for children below the age of mitzvot,
> there are no other required courses over here.
You're missing a lot of fun. I'm sure the rabbi _loves_ getting
questions like that.
> While making chicken soup and a main dish out of the same chicken
> might be a good idea for poor people, I wouldn't recommend it unless
> one can only afford one chicken and would feel something lacking if
> there wasn't both soup and chicken on the table, never mind how the
> chicken tastes. Chicken that has been used to make soup and then
> roasted is dry and lacking in flavor.
Who roasts it after cooking? Just one quarter goes into the soup, the
_rest_ gets roasted.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>> "Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> >> So what do you do on Pesach?
>> >
>> > Pesachdik lokshen !!
>>
>> My wife makes those phony substitutes also. If you don't _need_
>> lokshen they're acceptible. But if your de rigeur for the Friday
>> night meal is chicken soup with lokshen, then the pesachdik stuff
>> just ain't it.
>>
>> It's like the story of the fellow who struck it rich and decided he
>> wanted a yacht. So he bought a beautiful yacht and bought himself a
>> beautiful captain's uniform to go with it. He invited his mother to
>> inspect the ship under his "command". She told him; "My dear son, by
>> me you're a keptain, and by you you're a keptain, but by a keptain,
>> you're _no_ keptain!"
>
> Hey Moshe, I think that's the first joke you told on the NG.
How long you been here? Maybe you meant to say "...the first _good_
joke you told..."?
> You win first prize; a bowl of piping hot (chumetzdik) lokshen
> soup (with no substitutes) ;-)
Now you're talking!
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Or even the Martha Stewart version of chicken soup where first you boil the
chicken and then you THROW OUT THE STOCK :-)
Josh
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Picky picky :-)
Cindy may have been referring to ARRANGING (not "cutting') the different
types of fruit into a bowl. This is considered BORER OCHEL MI'TOCH OCHEL
(selecting good items from other good items) and is biblically prohibited
on shabbat.
>
>> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
>> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
>> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
>> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>
> I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
> that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
> cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
>
Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited on shabbat.
Josh
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:c5t0gg$o9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>> In article <m3brlrr...@dauphin.the-leveys.us>, Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>> > Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
>> >> gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
>> >> seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
>> >> lives.
>> >>
>> >>...
>> >> In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
>> >> Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
>> >> chicken soup.
>> >>
>> > Interesting. I never associated chicken soup with Shabbat. I do,
>> > however, associate roast chicken with Shabbat, and when I can I always
>> > try to serve it.
>>
>>
>> Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
>
> Mit lokshen!!
And "babaloch" :-)
Josh
Chano
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5u076$6kf$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Of course! (we call them beb'lach). The soup must be as close to boiling
temperature as possible.
Chano
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>>> >> Susan Cohen wrote:
>> snip
>>>> grows from the ground that has not been cooked or ground). Actually,
>>>> picking up spilled fruit ON YOUR TABLE is perfectly OK.
>>> -------
>>> I was envisioning a basket of fruit that falls on the floor with apples and
>>> oranges rolling all over the place. Thank you for clarifying this. Now,
>>> again, I am left to wonder what the rabbi on the Aish Hatorah tape was
>>> talking about. I think that rabbi said that collecting fruit spilled on the
>>> floor was assur (prohibited), but every time one of these topics comes up, I
>>> am finding that the tape is often at odds with the halacha cited by you and
>>> by others on this forum. Sometimes the information on the tape is more
>>> machmir (strict), sometimes more makil (lenient).
>>
>> That's why you should choose one Rav and abide by all his rulings.
>>
>>> The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
>>> different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
>>> large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
>>> it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
>>> When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
>>> such thing.
>>
>> Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
>
> Cindy may have been referring to ARRANGING (not "cutting') the different
> types of fruit into a bowl. This is considered BORER OCHEL MI'TOCH OCHEL
> (selecting good items from other good items) and is biblically prohibited
> on shabbat.
How is putting the fruit into the bowl to be considered "borer"?
What are you selecting? From what? May you eat the matzoh balls in
the chicken soup? I'm totaly confused.
>>> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
>>> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
>>> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
>>> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>>
>> I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
>> that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
>> cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
>
> Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited
> on shabbat.
I was aking about _arranging_ the plate. Again what is the borer
involved? What am I selecting from what?
And if your talking about selecting from such a platter, again I
can't imagine the problem. Can you take food from the cholent
platter?
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
That Moshe got the joke from me is beside the point :-)
Josh
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5u06v$6j9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il>, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
> > "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
<snippage for brevity>
> >
> >> The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
> >> different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
> >> large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
> >> it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
> >> When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
> >> such thing.
> >
> > Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
>
>
> Cindy may have been referring to ARRANGING (not "cutting') the different
> types of fruit into a bowl. This is considered BORER OCHEL MI'TOCH OCHEL
> (selecting good items from other good items) and is biblically prohibited
> on shabbat.
I was referring to cutting up several different types of fruits into smaller
pieces and mixing them together randomly in a bowl. Here is how the rabbi on
the tape explained it:
Let's suppose I have a cantaloupe, and someone were to ask me: "What do you
have?" I would answer "I have a cantaloupe." Then, I cut the cantaloupe into
roughly bite-sized pieces and put it in a bowl. Someone asks "What do you
have?" I would still answer "I have some cantaloupe."
Now, let's suppose I have a cantaloupe and some apples and peaches. Someone
asks "What do you have?" I would answer "A cantaloupe and some apples and
peaches." Then, I cut the cantaloupe and the apples and peaches into
bite-sized pieces and mix the pieces randomly in a bowl.Someone asks "What
do you have?" Now, I answer "I have a fruit salad." Ergo: According to the
rabbi on the tape, I have "created something new."
>
>
>
> >
> >> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
> >> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
> >> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
> >> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
> >
> > I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
> > that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
> > cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
> >
>
> Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited on
shabbat.
I'm assuming you are referring to arranging the stuff on the plate. It's not
a prohibition to select the corned beef rather than the pastrami, is it? I
understood that selecting was permissible as long as the person was
selecting good from good or good from bad (but not bad from good) and also
that the selecting was being done either by hand or with a utensil that is
considered an extension of the hand (like a regular fork or a spoon) as
opposed to specialized utensil such as using a slotted spoon to remove meat
or potatoes from the cholent pot. Is this not correct?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
<p_al...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:91bf498e.04041...@posting.google.com...
> Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) wrote in message
news:<927a0385.04041...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Of course, chicken soup is the main tradition for Friday night. While
> > gefilte fis and cholent are actually created because of Shabbos, noone
> > seems to know why or how chicken soup became such a major part of our
> > lives.
> >
> > Some people have thought that it is a result of poverty. This way you
> > get two courses of food out of the same chicken (with vegetables).
> > That is the delicious soup and then the main dish of chicken.
> >
> > In any case, many people who seem to have no other connection with
> > Judaism have been unable to bring themselves to give up Friday night
> > chicken soup.
>
> I honestly don't know how someone can talk about "the main tradition
> for Friday night". You could talk about your family's tradition.
> Maybe you could talk about your community's tradition, if you live in
> a community where everyone makes a point of eating chicken soup every
> Erev Shabbat.
>
> In my house, the only things on the menu without fail are kiddush and
> lechem mishneh (usually braided, but not always). Since traditions
> become requirements, and then someon asks their rabbi how many matzo
> balls are mandatory per serving of soup,
How many? It's not the number, but the size! Or, if you will, weight.
Over here, everyone demands at least 2 tennis ballish ones per bowl.
and if soup nuts are
> permitted for children below the age of mitzvot, there are no other
> required courses over here.
>
> While making chicken soup and a main dish out of the same chicken
> might be a good idea for poor people, I wouldn't recommend it unless
> one can only afford one chicken and would feel something lacking if
> there wasn't both soup and chicken on the table, never mind how the
> chicken tastes. Chicken that has been used to make soup and then
> roasted is dry and lacking in flavor.
I always thought that *nowadays* people buy more than one chicken.
Now, one of *my* favorite "tricks" is a cut-up chicken w/an extra breast,
use the breasts & wings for soup, & "oven fry" the legs/thighs.
Susan
Susan Cohen
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>
> >> I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
> >> that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
> >> cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
> >
> > Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited
> > on shabbat.
>
> I was aking about _arranging_ the plate. Again what is the borer
> involved? What am I selecting from what?
The selcting going on may just be a matter of aesthetics - certainly
w/flowers (tall in the middle/back, shorter around the sides/front).
W/little cakes: "Oh, no - not all the pink ones together!" Or, "I like
eclairs," "I like rainbow cake"....
>
> And if your talking about selecting from such a platter, again I
> can't imagine the problem. Can you take food from the cholent
> platter?
Could be that you just have to take it by the ladle as it comes rather than
"Make sure I get a potato!"
Susan
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5u076$6kf$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Lima beans?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Vmygc.7884$Aq....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
I didn't think you even needed to "take it as it comes" (i.e. I think it
*is* okay to pull out just a potato). I think the problem would be if you
scooped up a variety of items and then allowed the ones you didn't want to
fall back into the general mixture, but if I am wrong on this point, Josh or
Moshe (or someone else) will correct me.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
Huh? I have never heard anything like this. Who is this rav?
Does he also hold that I cannot serve my guests chicken, rice, and saag
bhajee on the same plate because I would then a created a new item called a
"plate of food"? Does he also hold I cannot mix hot water, tea power, and
milk because I would then have created a new item called a "cup of tea"?
Fiona
cindys
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c5uenp$egi$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz from Aish Hatorah.
>
> Does he also hold that I cannot serve my guests chicken, rice, and saag
> bhajee on the same plate because I would then a created a new item called
a
> "plate of food"? Does he also hold I cannot mix hot water, tea power, and
> milk because I would then have created a new item called a "cup of tea"?
Oh, please...I can't stand it...I'm ROTFLWTIME !!!
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
Susan Cohen
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c5uenp$egi$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
How many people when asked what they are eating would reply "a plate of
food"?
Does he also hold I cannot mix hot water, tea power, and
> milk because I would then have created a new item called a "cup of tea"?
If you're using "tea powder" it sounds like you have ersatz tea....
Susan
cindys
>
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c5uenp$egi$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
<snippage>
>
> Does he also hold I cannot mix hot water, tea power, and
> > milk because I would then have created a new item called a "cup of tea"?
>
> If you're using "tea powder" it sounds like you have ersatz tea....
------------
It does sound like what Americans would call "instant tea," but being that
Fiona is British, I would be willing to bet "tea powder" means loose tea
leaves.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RDzgc.64463$M3.2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Oops! I just realized that maybe Fiona meant instant tea after all because
this is a discussion about shabbos, and preparing tea directly from tea
leaves would be assur (prohibited) because it's considered bishul (cooking),
according to many/most poskim.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote
> > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
> <snippage>
> >
> > Does he also hold I cannot mix hot water, tea power, and
> > > milk because I would then have created a new item called a "cup of
tea"?
> >
> > If you're using "tea powder" it sounds like you have ersatz tea....
> ------------
> It does sound like what Americans would call "instant tea," but being that
> Fiona is British, I would be willing to bet "tea powder" means loose tea
> leaves.
You would have lost the bet :-) I was actually thinking of instant tea
power, but didn't feel the "instant" was necessary in the context.
Fiona
Fiona
But it's the principal at issue; does combining food stuffs on Shabbat, in a
such a way that a different name is given to the combination, make it assur?
From what Cindy wrote, that seems to be the rav's argument. He is not
bringing any breach of melachah but is saying it is assur because it has a
new name, and he seems therefore to be saying it is assur because of Nolad.
But Nolad is a form of Muktzeh, and all edible food is Mukan (because it is
ready before Shabbat starts), and it cannot lose its Mukan status by mixing
to become Muktzeh through Nolad.
Maybe he is saying something else, but I am at a loss to see what.
Fiona
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
From: bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish.moderated
Subject: Re: Sabbos dinner?
Message-ID: <2004Apr18.193415@hujicc>
Date: 18 Apr 2004 19:34:15 GMT
References: <1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com> <slrnc7qfeu....@athens.meushaw.com> <eucfc.48837$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <Rkhfc.31901$F9.1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> <c5ka30$68d$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <80ifc.49049$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <c5laep$aji$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <bIrfc.26657$1U2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <c5m2il$6kn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <hTwfc.26687$1U2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il> <c5u06v$6j9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il>
Followup-To: .172...@mm.huji.ac.il>
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 84
In article <2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il>, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>>>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>>> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>>>> >> Susan Cohen wrote:
>>> snip
>>>>> The prohibition of ME'AMER is only for "gidulei karka" (anything that
>>>>> grows from the ground that has not been cooked or ground). Actually,
>>>>> picking up spilled fruit ON YOUR TABLE is perfectly OK.
>>>> -------
>>>> I was envisioning a basket of fruit that falls on the floor with apples and
>>>> oranges rolling all over the place. Thank you for clarifying this. Now,
>>>> again, I am left to wonder what the rabbi on the Aish Hatorah tape was
>>>> talking about. I think that rabbi said that collecting fruit spilled on the
>>>> floor was assur (prohibited), but every time one of these topics comes up, I
>>>> am finding that the tape is often at odds with the halacha cited by you and
>>>> by others on this forum. Sometimes the information on the tape is more
>>>> machmir (strict), sometimes more makil (lenient).
>>>
>>> That's why you should choose one Rav and abide by all his rulings.
>>>
>>>> The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
>>>> different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
>>>> large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
>>>> it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
>>>> When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
>>>> such thing.
>>>
>>> Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
>>
>> Cindy may have been referring to ARRANGING (not "cutting') the different
>> types of fruit into a bowl. This is considered BORER OCHEL MI'TOCH OCHEL
>> (selecting good items from other good items) and is biblically prohibited
>> on shabbat.
>
> How is putting the fruit into the bowl to be considered "borer"?
> What are you selecting? From what? May you eat the matzoh balls in
> the chicken soup? I'm totaly confused.
Nisht duh gedacht :-)
I would highly recommend you start learning Hilchot Shabbat, especially
the halachot of BORER.
>
>>>> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
>>>> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
>>>> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
>>>> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>>>
>>> I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
>>> that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
>>> cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
>>
>> Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited
>> on shabbat.
>
> I was aking about _arranging_ the plate. Again what is the borer
> involved? What am I selecting from what?
>
See my comment above.
> And if your talking about selecting from such a platter, again I
> can't imagine the problem. Can you take food from the cholent
> platter?
See my comment above.
Josh
cindys
I totally agree. I haven't listened to the tape in a while. I may listen to
it again just to verify that this is his point. If it is, I will attempt to
contact him to inquire about his reasoning and report back.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
From: bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish.moderated
Subject: Re: Sabbos dinner?
Date: 18 Apr 2004 19:55:11 GMT
References: <1496d0c0.04041...@posting.google.com> <slrnc7qfeu....@athens.meushaw.com> <eucfc.48837$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <Rkhfc.31901$F9.1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> <c5ka30$68d$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <80ifc.49049$e17....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <c5laep$aji$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <bIrfc.26657$1U2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <c5m2il$6kn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <hTwfc.26687$1U2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il> <c5u06v$6j9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us> <gVxgc.44962$1u2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
Followup-To: 62$1u2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Lines: 101
In article <gVxgc.44962$1U2....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:c5u06v$6j9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Moshe was right :-) It's an outbreak of the KEYLIKAU Syndrome ! Who is
this clergyman ??? He obviously hasn't got the faintest idea what
he's talking about (at least with regard to NOLAD).
>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
>> >> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
>> >> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
>> >> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>> >
>> > I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
>> > that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? Wha about different
>> > cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
>> >
>>
>> Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited on
> shabbat.
>
> I'm assuming you are referring to arranging the stuff on the plate. It's not
> a prohibition to select the corned beef rather than the pastrami, is it? I
If it's not done immediately (but say for an hour later) it's most
definitely prohibited. It may even be prohibited if done immediately;
that why you first LOOK at the plate, let your mind pick what you want
and then let your hand glide over to the pastrami.
> understood that selecting was permissible as long as the person was
> selecting good from good or good from bad (but not bad from good) and also
> that the selecting was being done either by hand or with a utensil that is
> considered an extension of the hand (like a regular fork or a spoon) as
> opposed to specialized utensil such as using a slotted spoon to remove meat
> or potatoes from the cholent pot. Is this not correct?
> Best regards,
Selecting good from other good is also in the category of BORER.
Josh
> ---Cindy S.
cindys
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2004Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
(snippage for brevity)
> >>
> >>> The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
> >>> different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
> >>> large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
> >>> it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
> >>> When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
> >>> such thing.
> >>
> >> Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
> >
> > Cindy may have been referring to ARRANGING (not "cutting') the different
> > types of fruit into a bowl.
I did mean "cutting" not "arranging," which is why I don't understand what
is the objection (of the rabbi on the tape).
>>This is considered BORER OCHEL MI'TOCH OCHEL
> > (selecting good items from other good items) and is biblically
prohibited
> > on shabbat.
But there are certain conditions (according to R' Ribiat) where ochel mitoch
ochel would be permitted.
>
> How is putting the fruit into the bowl to be considered "borer"?
Generally, cut up fruit is not arranged, but when whole fruit is put in a
bowl, it is generally arranged to make it look attractive. This is a big
distinction (as Josh points out). In my _39 Melachos_ books, I see the three
conditions for permissible borer: [The examples in brackets are mine]
1. B'yad: The selection must be done by hand (and not with a k'li that aids
in the selection). - [i.e., A fork would be okay but a slotted spoon would
not.]
2. Ochel mitoch p'soles: The desired objects must be selected from the
undesired, not the other way around. - [The fish can be selected from the
bones, but the bones can't be pulled from the fish]
3. M'yad: The selection has to be done immediately before the time of use,
not later.
According to R' Ribiat, "ochel mitoch ochel" is permissible if it is being
done for immediate use. Example: If one wishes to eat raisins and almonds
that are mixed in a bowl but wants to eat them separately. He may separate
them if he intends to eat both right away. [However, if the person wants to
eat the raisins now and the almonds later, then the action is prohibited the
same as "ochel mitoch p'soles."]
[It seems that there is a difference between taking a scoop of the
raisin/almond mixture out of the bowl and sorting it, which would be "ochel
mitoch ochel" versus simply picking the raisins out of the serving dish and
leaving the almonds behind. The reason I say this is because R' Ribiat
specifically cites the examples of the cold cut platter and a fruit where
the person is going so far as to move aside undesired items to be able to
access the items he wants.]
R' Ribiat states:
1. A bowl of fruit: One may remove apples at the top of a bowl of fruit in
order to reach an orange at the bottom of the bowl.
2. A plate of cold cuts: One may remove slices of pastrami and bologna on a
serving plate in order to reach and pull out slices of salami that lie
beneath them.
The act of removal in circumstances such as these is referred to by the
Poskim as "siluk" (literally: removal). The simple removal of an unwanted
item in order to gain access to other desired items is permitted, even
though the action has the outward appearance of taking the p'soles from the
ochel. This is permitted because the individual has no interest whatsoever
in sorting or improving any mixture or assortment, but merely intends to
remove an obstructed or obscured item. As explained above, the concept of
borer applies only to sorting a mixture for the purpose of somehow improving
that mixture.
I checked the reference, (and I hope I am citing this correctly because I am
new at this) is Mishnah Berura, siman 318, sif katan 39.
[I am wondering if the distinction between mutar and assur (permitted and
forbidden) in this case is that in Josh's example of what is assur, the
fruit, cold cuts, etc are being selected and/or arranged to improve them in
some way (assur), whereas maybe what Moshe and I are thinking is that some
one is just take a spoon or a fork and grabbing what he wants (mutar) ??]
Josh, I just want to add once again, how much I appreciate all the time you
put into citing halacha because I frequently learn something new, and it has
inspired me to do some of my own research as evidenced above.
Best regards,
--- Cindy S.
only "mitoch ochel p'soles" (removing good from bad).
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
yes !
Josh
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5uns1$36s$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
See my comment to Fiona. I will listen to the tape again to ensure that I
haven't misunderstood. Assuming my understanding is the one the rabbi
intended, I will contact him for clarification. And if I have misunderstood,
I will post that as well.
The prohibition of ochel mitoch ochel is conditional, according to R'
Ribiat. Unfortunately, my follow-up to the post you are following up (whoa,
there's a mouthful - no pun intended - did I need to put pun alert in the
subject line?) was delayed in moderation. I subsequently posted another
follow-up with a cite directly from R' Ribiat who qualifies the
circumstances where (in his opinion) ochel mitoch ochel is permitted. Had I
seen the R' Ribiat before I posted my above statement, I would have posted a
bit differently.
cindys
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5uprq$66n$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
It took me a while. Thank God, it wasn't...well, I'll just leave the rest to
your imagination ;-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Asher N
news:c5ukoq$o12$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
So if I refer to the whole fruits in a bowl toghether as 'a bunch of
fruit in a bowl', cut them up, mix them and refer to that as 'a bunch opf
fruit toghether' it's OK? :-)
cindys
"Asher N" <compg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94CFA7F9FB14...@66.250.171.186...
> >
>
> So if I refer to the whole fruits in a bowl toghether as 'a bunch of
> fruit in a bowl', cut them up, mix them and refer to that as 'a bunch opf
> fruit toghether' it's OK? :-)
Just don't call them "fruit salad!"
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Henry Goodman
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c5u5sg$dia$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
It's on the old record (1960s) "You don't have to be Jewish"
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Henry Goodman
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RDzgc.64463$M3.2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
Most poskim hold that you cannot use loose tea leaves on Shabbat
because it is kal labishul. You either make very strong tea before
shabbat, which is allowed to cool and mix a little with hot water or
use powdered instant tea. I use the powder. On weekdays we use loose
leaves but, unfortunately, most people in Britain now use teabags
which are more convenient but don't make a decent cup of tea. I say
unfortunate because since loose tea is a minority interest it is no
longer possible to get loose tea with a Pesach hechsher so I am now
recovering from a week of horrible Yorkshire Tea bags.
cindys
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:c5v0ob$dt6$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
>
>
>
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:RDzgc.64463$M3.2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:Onzgc.7983$Aq....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > >
> > > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:c5uenp$egi$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> >
> > <snippage>
> > >
> > > Does he also hold I cannot mix hot water, tea power, and
> > > > milk because I would then have created a new item called a "cup
> of tea"?
> > >
> > > If you're using "tea powder" it sounds like you have ersatz
> tea....
> > ------------
> > It does sound like what Americans would call "instant tea," but
> being that
> > Fiona is British, I would be willing to bet "tea powder" means loose
> tea
> > leaves.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> Most poskim hold that you cannot use loose tea leaves on Shabbat
> because it is kal labishul. You either make very strong tea before
> shabbat, which is allowed to cool and mix a little with hot water or
> use powdered instant tea. I use the powder.
Agreed, which is the point I made in the follow-up to my follow-up.
>On weekdays we use loose
> leaves but, unfortunately, most people in Britain now use teabags
> which are more convenient but don't make a decent cup of tea. I say
> unfortunate because since loose tea is a minority interest it is no
> longer possible to get loose tea with a Pesach hechsher so I am now
> recovering from a week of horrible Yorkshire Tea bags.
I hope you recover soon from your ordeal :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
>
Micha Berger
: Most poskim hold that you cannot use loose tea leaves on Shabbat
: because it is kal labishul. You either make very strong tea before
: shabbat, which is allowed to cool and mix a little with hot water or
Loose tea and teabags are identical for the laws of cooking. Teabags
add the problem of filtering with a utensil. So, take the bag out
quickly, so that there is tea being removed from the cup along with
the leaves. DON'T let it hang over the cup to drip, nor squeeze it
with the string or spoon.
Actually, allowing the tea sense to cool and then adding it would be
*worse* than using the leaves.
Using teabags involve a question of whether we consider it possible to
cook something that was already roasted. We rule that you can, which is
why we don't use tea bags. But there are those who have said otherwise.
Adding a cold liquid to a hot one is cooking according to everyone.
In either case, one can use a keli shelishi (3rd utensil) with either
cold liquids or things that cook easily. So, fill a teapot, pour it
into your cup, and then add the bag.
Alternatively, leave the sense on the blech so that it's hot.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (413) 403-9905 forces the "judge" into submission?
Eliyahu Rooff
we append to it?
Eliyahu
cindys
"Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1086be6...@corp.supernews.com...
It shouldn't. Hence, we're joking about it.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> "Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>>> > <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> >> "Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>>> >> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> >> >> > Sabba....@verizon.net (Hillel Sabba Markowitz) writes:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Chicken soup is de rigeur for the Friday night meal !!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Mit lokshen!!
>>> >>
>>> >> So what do you do on Pesach?
>>> >
>>> > Pesachdik lokshen !!
>>>
>>> My wife makes those phony substitutes also. If you don't _need_
>>> lokshen they're acceptible. But if your de rigeur for the Friday
>>> night meal is chicken soup with lokshen, then the pesachdik stuff
>>> just ain't it.
>>>
>>> It's like the story of the fellow who struck it rich and decided he
>>> wanted a yacht. So he bought a beautiful yacht and bought himself a
>>> beautiful captain's uniform to go with it. He invited his mother to
>>> inspect the ship under his "command". She told him; "My dear son, by
>>> me you're a keptain, and by you you're a keptain, but by a keptain,
>>> you're _no_ keptain!"
>>
>> Hey Moshe, I think that's the first joke you told on the NG. You
>> win first prize; a bowl of piping hot (chumetzdik) lokshen soup
>> (with no substitutes) ;-)
>
> That Moshe got the joke from me is beside the point :-)
You wish. Just because you're always telling old jokes doesn't mean
you _own_ all the old jokes. I heard this one when you were still
in diapers. :-)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>> <snippage for brevity>
>> I was referring to cutting up several different types of fruits
>> into smaller pieces and mixing them together randomly in a bowl.
>> Here is how the rabbi on the tape explained it:
>>
>> Let's suppose I have a cantaloupe, and someone were to ask me:
>> "What do you have?" I would answer "I have a cantaloupe." Then, I
>> cut the cantaloupe into roughly bite-sized pieces and put it in a
>> bowl. Someone asks "What do you have?" I would still answer "I
>> have some cantaloupe."
>>
>> Now, let's suppose I have a cantaloupe and some apples and peaches.
> Someone
>> asks "What do you have?" I would answer "A cantaloupe and some apples and
>> peaches." Then, I cut the cantaloupe and the apples and peaches into
>> bite-sized pieces and mix the pieces randomly in a bowl.Someone asks "What
>> do you have?" Now, I answer "I have a fruit salad." Ergo: According to the
>> rabbi on the tape, I have "created something new."
>
> Huh? I have never heard anything like this. Who is this rav?
>
> Does he also hold that I cannot serve my guests chicken, rice, and
> saag bhajee on the same plate because I would then a created a new
> item called a "plate of food"? Does he also hold I cannot mix hot
> water, tea power, and milk because I would then have created a new
> item called a "cup of tea"?
Thanks Fiona for the sanity check.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> Huh? I have never heard anything like this. Who is this rav?
>
> Rav Yitzchok Berkowitz from Aish Hatorah.
Does he live in Israel? I know a fellow by that name. B"N I will
ask him.
>> Does he also hold that I cannot serve my guests chicken, rice, and
>> saag bhajee on the same plate because I would then a created a new
>> item called a "plate of food"? Does he also hold I cannot mix hot
>> water, tea power, and milk because I would then have created a new
>> item called a "cup of tea"?
>
> Oh, please...I can't stand it...I'm ROTFLWTIME !!!
Control yourself Cindy. :-)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>>>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>> snip
>>>>> The rabbi on the tape also stated that it was assur to cut up
>>>>> different kinds of fruit to make a fruit salad on shabbos (even in
>>>>> large pieces) because it constituted "creating something new," but
>>>>> it was okay if only one kind of fruit were involved.
>>>>> When I ran this by one of my rabbeim, he said he had never heard of
>>>>> such thing.
>>>>
>>>> Me neither. I'm not a posek but this to me sounds like Kelikaku.
>>>
>>> Cindy may have been referring to ARRANGING (not "cutting') the
>>> different types of fruit into a bowl. This is considered BORER
>>> OCHEL MI'TOCH OCHEL (selecting good items from other good items)
>>> and is biblically prohibited on shabbat.
>>
>> How is putting the fruit into the bowl to be considered "borer"?
>> What are you selecting? From what? May you eat the matzoh balls in
>> the chicken soup? I'm totaly confused.
>
> Nisht duh gedacht :-)
>
> I would highly recommend you start learning Hilchot Shabbat,
> especially the halachot of BORER.
I was begining to have the same idea. I did learn those halachot
once, but a review is always valuable. Could you give me a hint
which specific halachos/simanim/seforim I could find this in? TIA
>>>>> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
>>>>> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
>>>>> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
>>>>> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>>>>
>>>> I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything like
>>>> that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? What about different
>>>> cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
>>>
>>> Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited
>>> on shabbat.
>>
>> I was aking about _arranging_ the plate. Again what is the borer
>> involved? What am I selecting from what?
>
> See my comment above.
See my comment above.
>> And if your talking about selecting from such a platter, again I
>> can't imagine the problem. Can you take food from the cholent
>> platter?
>
> See my comment above.
See my comment above.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
Coming from you Josh, that's high praise indeed.
> It's an outbreak of the KEYLIKAU Syndrome ! Who is this clergyman ???
> He obviously hasn't got the faintest idea what he's talking about
> (at least with regard to NOLAD).
>>> >> (This was in the course of casual conversation - he wasn't
>>> >> paskening.). What is your opinion/the halacha about cutting up the
>>> >> fruit for a mixed fruit salad? (Before anyone gets nervous, I am
>>> >> not asking Josh to pasken - this is just conversation).
>>> >
>>> > I'm not Josh and I'm not paskening, but I never heard anything
>>> > like that. What about a platter of assorted cold cuts? What
>>> > about different cakes on a plate for a kiddush?
>>>
>>> Absolutely in the category of BORER and is biblically prohibited
>>> on shabbat.
>>
>> I'm assuming you are referring to arranging the stuff on the plate.
>> It's not a prohibition to select the corned beef rather than the
>> pastrami, is it?
>
> If it's not done immediately (but say for an hour later) it's most
> definitely prohibited.
Understood.
> It may even be prohibited if done immediately;
How? In what circumstances? You say "may" so I assume that it _may_
be permissable as well.
> that why you first LOOK at the plate, let your mind pick what
> you want and then let your hand glide over to the pastrami.
Even if you prefer corned beef? :-)
>> I understood that selecting was permissible as long as the person was
>> selecting good from good or good from bad (but not bad from good) and also
>> that the selecting was being done either by hand or with a utensil that is
>> considered an extension of the hand (like a regular fork or a spoon) as
>> opposed to specialized utensil such as using a slotted spoon to remove meat
>> or potatoes from the cholent pot. Is this not correct?
>
> Selecting good from other good is also in the category of BORER.
Which is why you can't take a shirt out of the drawer at night to be
worn the following morning. But _while_ eating, is there any problem
with taking those items you want from a selection? Would you say that
it is forbidden to eat from a buffet on Shabbos?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Big snip. I just want to make one point.
> Unfortunately, my follow-up to the post you are following up (whoa,
> there's a mouthful - no pun intended - did I need to put pun alert
> in the subject line?) was delayed in moderation.
Cindy's posts go for moderation!!!???