For further Passover discussion
Dan Kimmel
agree with it all, but it raises some interesting and provocative points as
well as suggesting some new possible customs for Pesach.
--
Dan
FOR FURTHER PASSOVER DISCUSSION!!
by Rabbi Arthur Waskow
There follow five ways of making real the passage of the Passover Haggadah
that says, "In every generation all human beings must look upon ourselves as
if we ourselves go forth from slavery, not our forebears only."
A. The Freedom Plate
Three or four years ago, Martha Hausman, now a student at the Jewish
Theological Seminary, proposed that a special plate be set aside next to the
traditional Seder plate, on which could be placed physical objects brought
by every participant in the Seder as a symbol of her/his liberation THIS
YEAR.
My wife Phyllis and I have done this each year now, and find it very
powerful. Mature, learned Jews, children, and people who have never before
attended a Seder can all relate to this, and the stories about the objects
on the Freedom Plate become a very powerful part of the Seder.
Our custom is that soon after we begin, we ask those present to begin
lifting and explaining their freedom-object. One year it was a
just-completed 500-page book manuscript for one person, a single gold coin
that another's father had brought out of Germany as a last-ditch economic
prop in case destitution were descending; for another, a watch, representing
liberation from rigid time-rules; for another, nothing -- representing
freedom from the rule that something should be brought.
Alternatively , one might use either the passage "In every generation one
rises up against us to destroy us" or "In very generation every human being
must look upon her/himself as if we ourselves, not our ancestors only, come
forth from slavery" as a time to raise up the Freedom Plate and hear its
stories.
B. For many of us, one of the worst oppressions in our lives is being driven
into overwork, and the spiritual and emotional exhaustion that follows.
(Today the New York Times reported that schools are increasingly abolishing
recess time in order to get the children to do more work. This is a form of
slavery. As the article noted, the possibility of "wonder" is being
squashed, and this is the opposite of Heschel's teaching that the root of
all spirituality is "radical amazement."
So we could add the following to the Seder, perhaps after the passage, "In
every generation, there is one who rises up against us, to destroy us."
(Some of the imagery is a paraphrase of Heschel.)
Today we face a new kind of Egypt, the tight and narrow place. Freedom
without jobs is a bitter joke--yet many of us find our jobs dissolved,
downsized, disemployed. Jobs without freedom are a form of slavery--yet many
of us are forced to overwork. Our jobs exhaust us. When Moses faced the
Burning Bush, he learned that like an eternal burning bush, time itself is
not consumed though each instant vanishes to open the way to the next.
Things of space seem permanent-- but as we seek to make them into our
servants, they may enslave us. When the Israelites went forth from slavery,
they sought time for rest and self-reflection: They found Shabbat. Rather
than live under the tyranny of space and overwork, we will in our lives set
apart a time for freedom.
C. Benjy Ben-Baruch of Ann Arbor has suggested a new practice for Ashkenazic
households that are not yet ready for a total break with the prohibition on
rice and beans that has operated in Askenazic but not Sephardic homes, a
prohibition that has been denounced by leading Conservative authorities in
Israel as propping up the differences between the two communities and even
an atmosphere of Ashenazic superiority.
The proposal is that along with Elijah's Cup there be set aside a small
plate of rice or beans, not for eating but for observing. (Its presence does
not contaminate with prohibited food the table or the house AT ALL, since
all agree this is not forbidden for Passover.)
This dish of rice is to symbolize our hope for respectful pluralism among
all Jews, and our intention to cross over all meaningless boundaries between
us, while honoring our distinctive customs."
D. The Orange on the Seder plate.
I saw this morning that this has achieved mainstream status: it was
mentioned among other, older traditions in an article in the Philadelphia
Inquirer (general, not Jewish, newspaper).
Origins of this custom are shrouded in the mythic mists of the 1980s:
according to the tale, a women who spoke on women in the rabbinate and the
equalization of other forums was rebuked by a man who said, "Women belong on
the bimah like an orange belongs on the Seder plate." Thus the new custom.
The story may have originated in a practice of some Jewish lesbians of
setting *bread* on the Seder plate as a symbol of affirming lesbianism,
though understanding it as transgressive of Jewish tradition . (See Rebecca
Alpert's excellent book, Like Bread on the Seder Plate.)
But regardless of the origins of the orange, it has come to stand for the
freedom and equality of women in Jewish life, and implicitly of how the
achievement of that freedom is already changing Jewish practice. The orange
also (as the only whole fruit on the plate) symbolizes its own advent,
because it carries within itself the seeds of its own future as Torah
carries within itself the seeds of change. Further, the orange can symbolize
the (feminine) divine aspect of Majestic Inclusion. Till now, the other
objects on the Seder Plate have symbolized the other six aspects and
Majestic Inclusion has been symbolized by the Plate itself--very important
but present only as background.
The traditional practice of the orange on the seder plate is, either in
response to someone's independently raising the question, "Why is there an
orange on the Seder plate?" or by raising the question deliberately (as a
fifth question, or in pointing to the items on the plate just before the
meal) to answer with any or all the answers above.
E. For a couple of years after Rosh Hashanah 1993, I had hoped we would no
longer need to ask these additional questions at the Seder table. Sadly, we
see that we still must.
May the confluence in one week this year of the Muslim festival of Eid al
Idha (commemorating the Binding of Ishmail), the Christian festival of
Easter, and our own Passover remind us how our different stories overlap,
how what divides us could also be the many-eyed vision that gives us deeper
perspective on God and truth and freedom. In honor of our cousins, the
Children of Ishmael, let us ask Four More Questions:
FOUR MORE QUESTIONS
A Passage to be Read in the Passover Haggadah
(Perhaps After the Tale of the Five Rabbis in B'nei B'raq)
Let us therefore tonight expand upon the story of our deliverance from
slavery by asking:
Why is this Passover night different from every other Passover night?
Because on every Passover night--tonight as well--We call out to another
people, "Let our people go!"
But tonight we also hear another people
Calling out to us: "Let our people go!"
Tonight the children of Hagar through Ishmael and the children of Sarah
through Isaac call out to each other: We too are children of Abraham! We are
cousins, you and we! As Isaac and Ishmael once met at Be'er LaChai Ro-i, the
Well of the Living One Who Sees, So it is time for us to meet -- Time for us
to see each other, face to face. Time for us to make peace with each other.
They met for the sake of their dead father, Abraham; we must meet for the
sake of our dead children--Dead at each other's hands.
For the sake of our children's children, so that they not learn to kill.
And so tonight we must ask ourselves four new questions:
(1) Why does the Torah teach: "When a stranger lives-as-a-stranger with you
in your land, you shall not oppress him. The stranger who
lives-as-a-stranger with you shall be as one of your citizens; you shall
love her as yourself."
Because Hagar Mamitzria [Hagar the Egyptian] was a stranger in your midst,
and "because you were strangers in the Land of Egypt."
(2) Why do we break the matzah in two?
Because the bread of affliction becomes the bread of freedom --when we share
it. Because the Land that gives bread to two peoples must be divided in two,
so that both peoples may eat of it. So long as one people grasps the whole
land, it is a land of affliction. When each people can eat from part of the
Land, it will become a land of freedom.
(3) Why do we dip herbs twice, once in salt water and once in sweet
charoset?
First for the tears of two peoples, Israeli and Palestinian; then for the
sweetness of two peoples, Palestinian and Israeli; for the future of both
peoples, who must learn not to repeat the sorrows of the past but to create
the joys of the future.
(4) Why is there an egg upon the Passover plate?
It is the egg of birthing. When we went forth from Egypt, the Narrow Place,
it was the birthtime of our people, the People of Israel; and today we are
witnessing the birth of freedom for another people, the People of Palestine.
When the midwives Shifrah and Puah Saved the children that Pharaoh ordered
them to kill, That was the beginning of the birth-time;
When Pharaoh's daughter joined with Miriam to give a second birth to Moses
from the waters, she birthed herself anew into God's daughter, Bat-yah, and
our people turned to draw ourselves toward life. When God became our Midwife
and named us Her firstborn, though we were the smallest and youngest of the
peoples, the birthing began; when the waters of the Red Sea broke, we were
delivered.
So tonight it is our task to help the Midwife, who tonight is giving birth
to a new people--and so to give a new birth to ourselves.
Blessings for a sweet and liberating Passover and a life-giving birth thru
the waters of the Sea.
Polar
wrote:
[...]
Thanks, Dan, for the very interesting message which I have sent
on to a few people.
Re: the following, however:
>Origins of this custom are shrouded in the mythic mists of the 1980s:
>according to the tale, a women who spoke on women in the rabbinate and the
>equalization of other forums was rebuked by a man who said, "Women belong on
>the bimah like an orange belongs on the Seder plate."
Its origins, AFAIK, are well-documented, rather than "mythic".
It was Susannah Heschel who was confronted by some hardliners --
was it in Florida?
Anyway, the minhag spread like wildfire.
[...]
--
Polar
Elisabeth Riba
> A. The Freedom Plate
> Three or four years ago, Martha Hausman, now a student at the Jewish
> Theological Seminary, proposed that a special plate be set aside next to the
> traditional Seder plate, on which could be placed physical objects brought
> by every participant in the Seder as a symbol of her/his liberation THIS
> YEAR.
to you (the participant).
> My wife Phyllis and I have done this each year now, and find it very
> powerful.
Ditto. To past seders I've brought photos of my grandparents
(concentration camp survivors), a series of essays written by my other
grandfather as he traced his geneology back in Poland and tried to
describe what life would've been like for his parents/grandparents/on back,
and one year I used my wedding ring.
> Mature, learned Jews, children, and people who have never before
> attended a Seder can all relate to this, and the stories about the objects
> on the Freedom Plate become a very powerful part of the Seder.
> Our custom is that soon after we begin, we ask those present to begin
> lifting and explaining their freedom-object. One year it was a
> just-completed 500-page book manuscript for one person, a single gold coin
> that another's father had brought out of Germany as a last-ditch economic
> prop in case destitution were descending; for another, a watch, representing
> liberation from rigid time-rules; for another, nothing -- representing
> freedom from the rule that something should be brought.
> Alternatively , one might use either the passage "In every generation one
> rises up against us to destroy us" or "In very generation every human being
> must look upon her/himself as if we ourselves, not our ancestors only, come
> forth from slavery" as a time to raise up the Freedom Plate and hear its
> stories.
--
----------> Elisabeth Anne Riba * l...@osmond-riba.org <----------
"[She] is one of the secret masters of the world: a librarian.
They control information. Don't ever piss one off."
- Spider Robinson, "Callahan Touch"
Joseph Hertzlinger
>A colleague at my shul sent this to me and I pass it along. You may not
>agree with it all, but it raises some interesting and provocative points as
>well as suggesting some new possible customs for Pesach.
>--
>Dan
>
>dan.k...@att.net
>
>
>FOR FURTHER PASSOVER DISCUSSION!!
>
>by Rabbi Arthur Waskow
>
>There follow five ways of making real the passage of the Passover Haggadah
>that says, "In every generation all human beings must look upon ourselves as
>if we ourselves go forth from slavery, not our forebears only."
>
>A. The Freedom Plate
>
>Three or four years ago, Martha Hausman, now a student at the Jewish
>Theological Seminary, proposed that a special plate be set aside next to the
>traditional Seder plate, on which could be placed physical objects brought
>by every participant in the Seder as a symbol of her/his liberation THIS
>YEAR.
Will a copy of the Libertarian platform count?
>Today we face a new kind of Egypt, the tight and narrow place. Freedom
>without jobs is a bitter joke--yet many of us find our jobs dissolved,
>downsized, disemployed. Jobs without freedom are a form of slavery--yet many
>of us are forced to overwork. Our jobs exhaust us.
Evidence?
meirm...@erols.com
<sme...@mindspring.com> posted:
I agreed with you when I read your post, but I read it before the
original post in the thread.
I think Waskow was referring to the whole paragraph with his use of
mythic. It continued:
"Thus the new custom. The story may have originated in a practice of
some Jewish lesbians of setting *bread* on the Seder plate as a symbol
of affirming lesbianism, though understanding it as transgressive of
Jewish tradition . (See Rebecca Alpert's excellent book, Like Bread on
the Seder Plate.)"
I only hope that's mythic and in this case means not true, because,
not only don't I know what bread has to do with lesbianism, it's more
than "transgressive of Jewish tradition". It's a violation of the law
to posess bread on Pesach, and though plenty people screw up or are
lax in many ways, even including purposefully, they are all a far cry
from putting bread right on the table, and in front of guests, takeh.
I agree with Jonathan's appraisal.
I can only hope that Rebecca Alpert, not family as far as I know, is
using "Like" to introduce a simile only, and that may well be the case
of course.
>Anyway, the minhag spread like wildfire.
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
Jonathan J. Baker
>A colleague at my shul sent this to me and I pass it along. You may not
>agree with it all, but it raises some interesting and provocative points as
>well as suggesting some new possible customs for Pesach.
Brought to you by Rabbi Arthur Waskow:
Waskow is such a New-Ager. Can't leave old customs alone, have to put
neo-pagan and other extra-Judaic symbolisms on them.
Everything on the seder plate, as well as the haggadah itself, goes
back to Mishnaic times. But damn the symbolism of continuity - full
PC ahead!
>A. The Freedom Plate
>Three or four years ago, Martha Hausman, now a student at the Jewish
>Theological Seminary, proposed that a special plate be set aside next to the
>traditional Seder plate, on which could be placed physical objects brought
>by every participant in the Seder as a symbol of her/his liberation THIS
>YEAR.
Interesting flip of the "Matza of Freedom" that was popular 25 years ago,
when the Soviet Jews couldn't get out.
Rabbi Waskow said: one has not fulfilled his obligation on the Seder night
unless heesh has made up his own symbolisms and explained them:
>Our custom is that soon after we begin, we ask those present to begin
>lifting and explaining their freedom-object. One year it was a
>just-completed 500-page book manuscript for one person, a single gold coin
>that another's father had brought out of Germany as a last-ditch economic
>prop in case destitution were descending; for another, a watch, representing
>liberation from rigid time-rules; for another, nothing -- representing
>freedom from the rule that something should be brought.
>B. For many of us, one of the worst oppressions in our lives is being driven
>into overwork, and the spiritual and emotional exhaustion that follows.
>(Today the New York Times reported that schools are increasingly abolishing
>recess time in order to get the children to do more work. This is a form of
>slavery. As the article noted, the possibility of "wonder" is being
>squashed, and this is the opposite of Heschel's teaching that the root of
>all spirituality is "radical amazement."
>So we could add the following to the Seder, perhaps after the passage, "In
>every generation, there is one who rises up against us, to destroy us."
>(Some of the imagery is a paraphrase of Heschel.)
>Today we face a new kind of Egypt, the tight and narrow place. Freedom
>without jobs is a bitter joke--yet many of us find our jobs dissolved,
>downsized, disemployed. Jobs without freedom are a form of slavery--yet many
>of us are forced to overwork. Our jobs exhaust us. When Moses faced the
>Burning Bush, he learned that like an eternal burning bush, time itself is
>not consumed though each instant vanishes to open the way to the next.
>Things of space seem permanent-- but as we seek to make them into our
>servants, they may enslave us. When the Israelites went forth from slavery,
>they sought time for rest and self-reflection: They found Shabbat. Rather
>than live under the tyranny of space and overwork, we will in our lives set
>apart a time for freedom.
Pesach is a time which celebrates overwork. Eating matza is a positive
mitzva with a set time, therefore one might think that women are exempt.
But no - they do most of the preparation, so it's logical that they also
partake in the mitzvot of the day.
Maybe the Waskowites should try celebrating Shabbat itself? Two days of
late night dinners with lots of ceremony after two weeks of cleaning
and cooking is fine, but it doesn't help with the rest of the year when
one is normally "overworked". I find (now that I observe it properly)
that Shabbat is necessary to my mental well-being. On Shabbat I know
I can't do anything about work, so my mind just shuts off any worries
I might have about it.
>C. Benjy Ben-Baruch of Ann Arbor has suggested a new practice for Ashkenazic
>households that are not yet ready for a total break with the prohibition on
>rice and beans that has operated in Askenazic but not Sephardic homes, a
>prohibition that has been denounced by leading Conservative authorities in
>Israel as propping up the differences between the two communities and even
>an atmosphere of Ashenazic superiority.
They should try shopping in Israel for Pesach, then they'll get a shot
about Ashkenazic superiority. Most of the Kosher for Passover packaged
food in Israel contains kitniyot, since most of the K-P consumers are
Sephardim - demonstrating Sephardi superiority. One has to be as careful
in Israel shopping as a K-P Ashkenazi as one is in America.
>The proposal is that along with Elijah's Cup there be set aside a small
>plate of rice or beans, not for eating but for observing. (Its presence does
>not contaminate with prohibited food the table or the house AT ALL, since
>all agree this is not forbidden for Passover.)
>This dish of rice is to symbolize our hope for respectful pluralism among
>all Jews, and our intention to cross over all meaningless boundaries between
>us, while honoring our distinctive customs."
But do these Waskowites inspect each grain in the rice three times,
as Sephardim who actually use rice on Pesach have to do, to ensure that
no wheat got into the bag? Or are they again introducing potential
chametz - creating a big real ritual problem to solve a perceived social
problem?
>D. The Orange on the Seder plate.
>I saw this morning that this has achieved mainstream status: it was
>mentioned among other, older traditions in an article in the Philadelphia
>Inquirer (general, not Jewish, newspaper).
>Origins of this custom are shrouded in the mythic mists of the 1980s:
>according to the tale, a women who spoke on women in the rabbinate and the
>equalization of other forums was rebuked by a man who said, "Women belong on
>the bimah like an orange belongs on the Seder plate." Thus the new custom.
>The story may have originated in a practice of some Jewish lesbians of
>setting *bread* on the Seder plate as a symbol of affirming lesbianism,
>though understanding it as transgressive of Jewish tradition . (See Rebecca
>Alpert's excellent book, Like Bread on the Seder Plate.)
Well, if they want to open themselves up to spiritual excision for owning
and looking at chametz on pesach, whereas lesbianism is barely if at all
forbidden. It seems like cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.
Lesbianism is far less of a problem in Jewish law than male homosexual
activity.
>But regardless of the origins of the orange, it has come to stand for the
>freedom and equality of women in Jewish life, and implicitly of how the
>achievement of that freedom is already changing Jewish practice. The orange
>also (as the only whole fruit on the plate) symbolizes its own advent,
>because it carries within itself the seeds of its own future as Torah
>carries within itself the seeds of change. Further, the orange can symbolize
>the (feminine) divine aspect of Majestic Inclusion. Till now, the other
>objects on the Seder Plate have symbolized the other six aspects and
>Majestic Inclusion has been symbolized by the Plate itself--very important
>but present only as background.
Eggs aren't feminine? Plants aren't feminine?
>The traditional practice of the orange on the seder plate is, either in
>response to someone's independently raising the question, "Why is there an
>orange on the Seder plate?" or by raising the question deliberately (as a
>fifth question, or in pointing to the items on the plate just before the
>meal) to answer with any or all the answers above.
>E. For a couple of years after Rosh Hashanah 1993, I had hoped we would no
>longer need to ask these additional questions at the Seder table. Sadly, we
>see that we still must.
>May the confluence in one week this year of the Muslim festival of Eid al
>Idha (commemorating the Binding of Ishmail), the Christian festival of
>Easter, and our own Passover remind us how our different stories overlap,
Ah yes, Waskowism celebrates the negation of Judaism by a) the Muslims,
who think that the Akeidah was of Ishmael, not of Isaac; and b) the
Christians, who believe that they replaced the Jews as the carriers
of His covenants, which covenants are abrogated anyway.
Is Waskow now going to stand alongside Edward Said in tossing rocks
at Israeli soldiers?
>how what divides us could also be the many-eyed vision that gives us deeper
>perspective on God and truth and freedom. In honor of our cousins, the
>Children of Ishmael, let us ask Four More Questions:
>FOUR MORE QUESTIONS
>A Passage to be Read in the Passover Haggadah
>(Perhaps After the Tale of the Five Rabbis in B'nei B'raq)
>Let us therefore tonight expand upon the story of our deliverance from
>slavery by asking:
>Why is this Passover night different from every other Passover night?
>Because on every Passover night--tonight as well--We call out to another
>people, "Let our people go!"
>But tonight we also hear another people
>Calling out to us: "Let our people go!"
>Tonight the children of Hagar through Ishmael and the children of Sarah
>through Isaac call out to each other: We too are children of Abraham! We are
>cousins, you and we! As Isaac and Ishmael once met at Be'er LaChai Ro-i, the
>Well of the Living One Who Sees, So it is time for us to meet -- Time for us
>to see each other, face to face. Time for us to make peace with each other.
>They met for the sake of their dead father, Abraham; we must meet for the
>sake of our dead children--Dead at each other's hands.
Ishmael did teshuvah. Eisav did teshuvah. Both reconciled themselves
to the Avraham-Yitzchak-Yaakov chain of tradition. I see no sign of
reconciliation among the Arabs; in fact, they have stepped up their
negation of everything Jewish, in their destruction of Jewish religious
sites and negation of Jewish claims to religious sites.
>For the sake of our children's children, so that they not learn to kill.
This lefty blindness to political reality is unbelievable. Who do you
think is blowing up bombs to kill special-ed kids? Arabs. Who is
shooting babies in the head? Arabs. These are not people who are following
in the conciliatory paths of Eisav and Ishmael as brothers, these are
people who are bent on destroying Jews and Judaism. These are people who
are following the mold of Amalek, in attacking the weak and defenseless
among the Jews. And Waskow wants to throw in his lot with them?
>And so tonight we must ask ourselves four new questions:
>(1) Why does the Torah teach: "When a stranger lives-as-a-stranger with you
>in your land, you shall not oppress him. The stranger who
>lives-as-a-stranger with you shall be as one of your citizens; you shall
>love her as yourself."
>Because Hagar Mamitzria [Hagar the Egyptian] was a stranger in your midst,
>and "because you were strangers in the Land of Egypt."
Indeed. However, if they foment insurrection, they eare not living-as-
strangers. That status includes acceptance of the 7 Laws of the Sons
of Noah under Jewish sovereignty. It includes obeying the laws of the
land.
>(2) Why do we break the matzah in two?
>Because the bread of affliction becomes the bread of freedom --when we share
>it. Because the Land that gives bread to two peoples must be divided in two,
>so that both peoples may eat of it. So long as one people grasps the whole
>land, it is a land of affliction. When each people can eat from part of the
>Land, it will become a land of freedom.
Oh. I thought it was to symbolize the death of the Son.
It might as well be, since the other side that Waskow idolizes is not
interested in sharing the Land. When they regard Jerusalem and Natanya
as areas "not liberated yet", it is clear they are not interested in
sharing - they are interested in driving the Jews into the sea, as
Salah-al-Din did to the Chistians in the 14th century.
>(3) Why do we dip herbs twice, once in salt water and once in sweet
>charoset?
>First for the tears of two peoples, Israeli and Palestinian; then for the
>sweetness of two peoples, Palestinian and Israeli; for the future of both
>peoples, who must learn not to repeat the sorrows of the past but to create
>the joys of the future.
"Turn the other cheek", eh? As was said in "the Great Brain", turn
the other cheek, and they'll paste another one on that one.
>(4) Why is there an egg upon the Passover plate?
>It is the egg of birthing. When we went forth from Egypt, the Narrow Place,
>it was the birthtime of our people, the People of Israel; and today we are
>witnessing the birth of freedom for another people, the People of Palestine.
>When the midwives Shifrah and Puah Saved the children that Pharaoh ordered
>them to kill, That was the beginning of the birth-time;
>When Pharaoh's daughter joined with Miriam to give a second birth to Moses
>from the waters, she birthed herself anew into God's daughter, Bat-yah, and
>our people turned to draw ourselves toward life. When God became our Midwife
>and named us Her firstborn, though we were the smallest and youngest of the
>peoples, the birthing began; when the waters of the Red Sea broke, we were
>delivered.
>So tonight it is our task to help the Midwife, who tonight is giving birth
>to a new people--and so to give a new birth to ourselves.
Good grief. The egg symbolizes the Chagigah offering, as the chicken
neck symbolizes the Pesach offering, both of which were eaten on this
night. But no, we have to give it a neo-pagan symbolism of Spring-Rebirth,
and layer on another pile of political hooey.
>Blessings for a sweet and liberating Passover and a life-giving birth thru
>the waters of the Sea.
Into which the Party of the Second Part which Waskow idolizes wants to drive
us.
--
Jonathan Baker | What is the 7th verse of the piut Shir haChodoshim?
jjb...@panix.com | The Nissan Stanza. [1st verse in the orig. ms.]
Web page <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> Update: Rambam 13 Principles
Polar
>In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 3 Apr 2001 15:23:48 GMT Polar
><sme...@mindspring.com> posted:
>
>>On 3 Apr 2001 14:25:08 GMT, "Dan Kimmel" <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>Thanks, Dan, for the very interesting message which I have sent
>>on to a few people.
>>
>>Re: the following, however:
>>
>>>Origins of this custom are shrouded in the mythic mists of the 1980s:
>>>according to the tale, a women who spoke on women in the rabbinate and the
>>>equalization of other forums was rebuked by a man who said, "Women belong on
>>>the bimah like an orange belongs on the Seder plate."
>>
>>Its origins, AFAIK, are well-documented, rather than "mythic".
>>It was Susannah Heschel who was confronted by some hardliners --
>>was it in Florida?
>
>I agreed with you when I read your post, but I read it before the
>original post in the thread.
>
>I think Waskow was referring to the whole paragraph with his use of
>mythic.
Disagree.
It continued:
>"Thus the new custom. The story may have originated in a practice of
>some Jewish lesbians of setting *bread* on the Seder plate as a symbol
>of affirming lesbianism, though understanding it as transgressive of
>Jewish tradition . (See Rebecca Alpert's excellent book, Like Bread on
>the Seder Plate.)"
>
>I only hope that's mythic and in this case means not true, because,
>not only don't I know what bread has to do with lesbianism, it's more
>than "transgressive of Jewish tradition". It's a violation of the law
>to posess bread on Pesach, and though plenty people screw up or are
>lax in many ways, even including purposefully, they are all a far cry
>from putting bread right on the table, and in front of guests, takeh.
I didn't read Rabbi Waskow's message the way you did.
I saw the reference to "orange on seder plate" as distinct from
his (weird?) theory about Jewish lesbians. New one on me.
The story about Susannah Heschel and the hardliner re:
orange on seder plate iis well-documented, and has nothing\ to do with
the (alleged) Lesbian reference, IMO.
>
>I agree with Jonathan's appraisal.
>
>I can only hope that Rebecca Alpert, not family as far as I know, is
>using "Like" to introduce a simile only, and that may well be the case
>of course.
>
>>Anyway, the minhag spread like wildfire.
--
Polar
Jonathan J. Baker
In <9ad8kt$o8q$1...@panix6.panix.com> jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>In <> "Dan Kimmel" <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes in the name of
>Rabbi Arthur Waskow:
>>E. For a couple of years after Rosh Hashanah 1993, I had hoped we would no
>>longer need to ask these additional questions at the Seder table. Sadly, we
>>see that we still must.
>>May the confluence in one week this year of the Muslim festival of Eid al
>>Idha (commemorating the Binding of Ishmail), the Christian festival of
>>Easter, and our own Passover remind us how our different stories overlap,
Debbie pointed out that they may not coincide - what year was this written?
I investigated a bit with the NYC Parking Calendar, and found that Pesach
and Id-al-Adha fell within a week of each other only between 1997 and 1999
(in the recent past; the last time would have been more than 30 years ago).
So this piece was not written recently. Which leaves the question:
>>(2) Why do we break the matzah in two?
>>Because the bread of affliction becomes the bread of freedom --when we share
>>it. Because the Land that gives bread to two peoples must be divided in two,
>>so that both peoples may eat of it. So long as one people grasps the whole
>>land, it is a land of affliction. When each people can eat from part of the
>>Land, it will become a land of freedom.
>Oh. I thought it was to symbolize the death of the Son.
>It might as well be, since the other side that Waskow idolizes is not
>interested in sharing the Land. When they regard Jerusalem and Natanya
>as areas "not liberated yet", it is clear they are not interested in
>sharing - they are interested in driving the Jews into the sea, as
>Salah-al-Din did to the Chistians in the 14th century.
Does Waskow still hold this way since the "Al-Aqsa Intifada" happened?
Since Shalhevet Pass died? Etc.?
Some of the material on Waskow's site <http://www.shalomctr.org/>
leads me to think that he still does, but we don't really know.
On the one hand, there isn't anything recent on the site. On the
other hand, there's no mea culpa either.
Polar
wrote:
[...]
>Lesbianism is far less of a problem in Jewish law than male homosexual
>activity.
[...]
I will probably regret waiving my policy of not getting involved
in the interminable scjm discussions (which I largely do not read;
confining myself to simple requests for information or statement of
facts). However:
Could the above be explained by the attitude of the ancients
toward female sexuality -- that they were so male-oriented
(read: patriarchal) that they simply couldn't imagine
two women giving each other pleasure?
And/or that if that did happen, it wouldn't prevent
conception because no sperm would be involved,
therefore it wasn't pertinent.
And/or that men "wasting" sperm on each other precluded
the possibility of conception. You know: "Be fruitful and
multiply."
[....]
--
Polar
Jonathan J. Baker
>On 4 Apr 2001 13:35:27 GMT, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker)
>>Lesbianism is far less of a problem in Jewish law than male homosexual
>>activity.
>I will probably regret waiving my policy of not getting involved
>in the interminable scjm discussions (which I largely do not read;
>confining myself to simple requests for information or statement of
>facts). However:
>Could the above be explained by the attitude of the ancients
>toward female sexuality -- that they were so male-oriented
>(read: patriarchal) that they simply couldn't imagine
>two women giving each other pleasure?
If one wants to bash the Sages for being misogynist (which some of
them may have been), sure. But really, male and female homosexuality
are given about equal time, which is to say, almost none, in the
classical sources (Talmud, midrashim, codes). I tried to look it up
in Maimonides Code and in the SHulchan Aruch, and found almost nothing.
There are a few brief mentions in each place, but no extended discussion.
The Torah briefly forbids male anal intercourse, and says nothing about
female-female sexual activity directly. THat's God's perspective; we
can only speculate about His motives.
meirm...@erols.com
<sme...@mindspring.com> posted:
>On 4 Apr 2001 13:35:27 GMT, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker)
>wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>Lesbianism is far less of a problem in Jewish law than male homosexual
>>activity.
>
>[...]
>
>I will probably regret waiving my policy of not getting involved
You may be right. :)
>in the interminable scjm discussions (which I largely do not read;
>confining myself to simple requests for information or statement of
>facts). However:
>
>Could the above be explained by the attitude of the ancients
>toward female sexuality -- that they were so male-oriented
>(read: patriarchal) that they simply couldn't imagine
>two women giving each other pleasure?
If for some reason God had chosen to make it the other way around, you
could object to that too in the same way: that they belittle the issue
of male homosexuality while coming down hard on women.
That they simply couldn't imagine men engaging in such a thing while
they were so male dominant that they were eager to exert their power
against women (now matter how few or many did it).
That if men want to do it, they'll make up reasons why they can, but
if women want to do something similar, why bother to help them do it?
I'd attribute it to the fact that there is an explicit line in Torah
(from G-d) that refers to men, but only an indirect reference to
women. And whatever else Jonathan has to add.
>And/or that if that did happen, it wouldn't prevent
>conception because no sperm would be involved,
>therefore it wasn't pertinent.
Therefore it wasn't prohibited on the basis of what was said to Onan.
You'll have to tell me why an act is not pertinent just because it's
not prohibited by a particular rule, and indeed if perhaps anything
that's not prohibited is not pertinent. And don't forget that
Jonathan didn't say it was permitted. There plainly is at least one
thing that is prohibited, which doesn't involve any sperm.
>And/or that men "wasting" sperm on each other precluded
>the possibility of conception. You know: "Be fruitful and
>multiply."
You do have a child or children, but would you have wanted God to have
required it too? Plainly there is enough sperm for men to do both,
and although I don't think that is an argument in favor of wasting in
general, since you've trifurcated all this, I think it applies here.
:)
>[....]
Henry Goodman
<meirm...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:uv1octkp0347vjj9s...@4ax.com...
What has this discussion to do with Pesach (see heading)?
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
>>A colleague at my shul sent this to me and I pass it along. You may not
>>agree with it all,
Understatement of the year.
>>but it raises some interesting and provocative points as
>>well as suggesting some new possible customs for Pesach.
But is it "Jewish"?
> Brought to you by Rabbi Arthur Waskow:
>
> Waskow is such a New-Ager. Can't leave old customs alone, have to put
> neo-pagan and other extra-Judaic symbolisms on them.
>
> Everything on the seder plate, as well as the haggadah itself, goes
> back to Mishnaic times. But damn the symbolism of continuity - full
> PC ahead!
Jonathan, thank you so much for taking much of the bluster out of
Waskow's New-Age neo-pagan nonesense. The part about _support_ for
Palestenian terrorists is most frightening, espescially for someone
like me. I ride Israeli busses every day and in back of my mind is
the question, "Will the ride finish safely?". Of course Waskow, in
the safety of California (or whereever he is) can afford to "preach"
a "love" of "Ishmael".
I'm not snipping it in case anyone didn't see it yet.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
Eliyahu
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:KZVy6.3846$%W5.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > You do have a child or children, but would you have wanted God to have
> > required it too? Plainly there is enough sperm for men to do both,
> > and although I don't think that is an argument in favor of wasting in
> > general, since you've trifurcated all this, I think it applies here.
> >
>
> What has this discussion to do with Pesach (see heading)?
>
Just typical thread drift... someone forgot to change the subject line as it
slipped along. :-)
--
Eliyahu Rooff
www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm
RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm
janet rosenbaum
>C. Benjy Ben-Baruch of Ann Arbor has suggested a new practice for Ashkenazic
>households that are not yet ready for a total break with the prohibition on
>rice and beans that has operated in Askenazic but not Sephardic homes, a
>prohibition that has been denounced by leading Conservative authorities in
>Israel as propping up the differences between the two communities and even
>an atmosphere of Ashenazic superiority.
they've got to be joking. ashkenazim are jealous of the sephardim.
janet
Binyamin Dissen
:>"Dan Kimmel" <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Certainly not during Elul.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@netvision.net.il>
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
Polar
wrote:
>
>
><meirm...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:uv1octkp0347vjj9s...@4ax.com...
>> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 4 Apr 2001 22:36:26 GMT Polar
>> <sme...@mindspring.com> posted:
>>
>> >On 4 Apr 2001 13:35:27 GMT, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker)
>> >wrote:
>>
[...]
>
>What has this discussion to do with Pesach (see heading)?
"Wandering threads" are ubiquitous on the 'Net.
--
Polar
Abe Kohen
"janet rosenbaum" <jero...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:9aicv2$fat$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
Absolutely.
BTW, is tofu allowed to be eaten by Ashkenazim during Passover?
>
> janet
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
No. As a soybean derivative it is in the category of Kitniyot.
[BTW I'd avoid eating tofu. A paper came out a year ago showing
increased neurodegenerative disease as a result of eating tofu]
Josh
>
>>
>> janet
meirm...@erols.com
<abek...@yahoo.com> posted:
>
>"janet rosenbaum" <jero...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote in message
>news:9aicv2$fat$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
>> "Dan Kimmel" <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> >C. Benjy Ben-Baruch of Ann Arbor has suggested a new practice for
>Ashkenazic
>> >households that are not yet ready for a total break with the prohibition
>on
>> >rice and beans that has operated in Askenazic but not Sephardic homes, a
I think it is only Mexican Ashkenazim who are not ready for a break
from rice and beans. :)
But I don't see the problem. It's a practice one is born into, and if
one is becoming a baal tshuvah, this seems like one of the easiest to
get used to.
>> >prohibition that has been denounced by leading Conservative authorities
>in
>> >Israel as propping up the differences between the two communities and
>even
>> >an atmosphere of Ashenazic superiority.
They have to be kidding. Do the Sephardim have to cut out their
differences too?
AIUI about a third of all Ash and Seph Jews marry people from the
other group, Seph or Ash. Total randomness would generate no more
than one half doing so, and total randomness isn't to be expected
since people often meet their future spouses through their community
and their families. One third is enormously high, and a bigger
problem may well be preserving the differences between the two
communities. I would hate to lose track of all the cultural
variations.
>> they've got to be joking. ashkenazim are jealous of the sephardim.
>
>Absolutely.
>
>BTW, is tofu allowed to be eaten by Ashkenazim during Passover?
>
I'm not jealous of people who can eat tofu.
>>
>> janet
Eliyahu
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message news:9airjj$nf9$1...@condor.nj.org...
tastes yukky. :-)
Eliyahu
<meirm...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:bs0qctsdh1h4upmlp...@4ax.com...
things that divide us between A and S. Perhaps one of the differences of
being a BT is that I've been able to look at those differences as just
that... differences... not from the POV of one group being superior to the
other or that one practice is somehow better. There are many things we do
( or ought to do) that separate and differentiate us from non-Jews. We ought
to think carefully about those things that also separate us from our fellow
Jews; particularly those with minimal or no halachic basis.
meirm...@erols.com
<lro...@hotmail.com> posted:
>
><meirm...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:bs0qctsdh1h4upmlp...@4ax.com...
>> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 5 Apr 2001 20:42:29 GMT "Abe Kohen"
>> <abek...@yahoo.com> posted:
>>
>> >
>> >"janet rosenbaum" <jero...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote in message
>> >news:9aicv2$fat$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
>> >> "Dan Kimmel" <dan.k...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> >> >C. Benjy Ben-Baruch of Ann Arbor has suggested a new practice for
>> >Ashkenazic
>> >> >households that are not yet ready for a total break with the
>prohibition
>> >on
>> >> >rice and beans that has operated in Askenazic but not Sephardic homes,
>a
>>
>> I think it is only Mexican Ashkenazim who are not ready for a break
>> from rice and beans. :)
Cubans are into rice and beans too, and others I guess. My Sephardic
step-father was married to an Ashkenazic Cuban until she died, so
there are some.
>> But I don't see the problem. It's a practice one is born into, and if
>> one is becoming a baal tshuvah, this seems like one of the easiest to
>> get used to.
>>
>> >> >prohibition that has been denounced by leading Conservative
>authorities
>> >in
>> >> >Israel as propping up the differences between the two communities and
>> >even
>> >> >an atmosphere of Ashenazic superiority.
>>
>> They have to be kidding. Do the Sephardim have to cut out their
>> differences too?
>>
>> AIUI about a third of all Ash and Seph Jews marry people from the
>> other group, Seph or Ash. Total randomness would generate no more
>> than one half doing so, and total randomness isn't to be expected
>> since people often meet their future spouses through their community
>> and their families. One third is enormously high, and a bigger
>> problem may well be preserving the differences between the two
>> communities. I would hate to lose track of all the cultural
>> variations.
>>
>While I can understand that, I also see some benefit in reducing some of the
>things that divide us between A and S.
What kinds of things? Won't we still be S or A when we're done so
what difference would it make? Since you only say "some" you seem to
be implying there are things that distinguish A vs. S that matter in
some way, that are important enough to get rid of. Do you have
anything in mind?
Would you be changing your practice to be more like S?
I bet you're not going to encourage S to be more like A.
> Perhaps one of the differences of
>being a BT is that I've been able to look at those differences as just
>that... differences... not from the POV of one group being superior to the
>other or that one practice is somehow better.
Are you saying you had trouble doing that before you were a BT?
If so, we could learn a lot from hearing about those days.
If not, why do you think others do?
I think we need details of real complaints about S by A or vice versa.
I have one example and it doesn't relate to religious practice.
> There are many things we do
>( or ought to do) that separate and differentiate us from non-Jews. We ought
>to think carefully about those things that also separate us from our fellow
>Jews; particularly those with minimal or no halachic basis.
I was raised in Reform and Conservative congregations, and for all my
complaints about them, they never said a word that implied that any
differences had to do with one group being superior to another. And
my grandparents, all Ashkenazic O in Europe, 0 to traditional in the
US, and my very lax parents, never thought anything like that either.
If A have problems with S or vice versa, it's not because of A vs. S
practices. They are not things that divide us. Any more than one
shul meeting on Maple Street and another meeting on Elm Street divides
us.
Colin Rosenthal
Are they sure it wasn't a reversed correlation - that only those
with incipient neurological degeneration would eat that filthy
stuff?
--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo
Eric Simon
>The story about Susannah Heschel and the hardliner re:
>orange on seder plate iis well-documented, and has nothing\ to do with
>the (alleged) Lesbian reference, IMO.
It's well documented, and it's wrong. It is, in fact, precisely about
Jewish Lesbians.
The following is from Joanna Selznick Dulkin
<joa...@stanfordalumni.org>, who got this from Rabbi Patricia
Karlin-Neumann, Associate Dean for Religious Life, Stanford
University, who got it from Suzannah Heschel herself, with permission
to reprint it:
From Ms. Heschel:
_________
In the early 1980s, the Hillel Foundation invited me to speak on a
panel at Oberlin College. While on campus, I came across a Haggada
that had been written by some Oberlin students to express feminist
concerns. One ritual they devised was placing a crust of bread on the
Seder plate, as a sign of solidarity with Jewish lesbians (there's as
much room for a lesbian in Judaism as there is for a crust of bread on
the Seder plate).
At the next Passover, I placed an orange on our family's Seder plate.
During the first part of the Seder, I asked everyone to take a segment
of the orange, make the blessing over fruit, and eat it as a gesture
of solidarity with Jewish lesbians and gay men, and others who are
marginalized within the Jewish community (I mentioned widows in
particular). Bread on the Seder plate brings an end to Pesach - it
renders everything chometz. And it suggests that being lesbian is
being transgressive, violating Judaism. I felt that an orange was
suggestive of something else: the fruitfulness for all Jews when
lesbians and gay men are contributing and active members of Jewish
life. In addition, each orange segment had a few seeds that had to be
spit out - a gesture of spitting out, repudiating the homophobia of
Judaism.
When lecturing, I often mentioned my custom as one of many new
feminist rituals that have been developed in the last twenty years.
Somehow, though, the typical patriarchal maneuver occurred: My idea
of an orange and my intention of affirming lesbians and gay men were
transformed. Now the story circulates that a MAN said to me that a
woman belongs on the bimah as an orange on the Seder plate. A woman's
words are attributed to a man, and the affirmation of lesbians and gay
men is simply erased.
Isn't that precisely what's happened over the centuries to women's
ideas?
Susannah Heschel
[4/5/01]
Steven Goldfarb
><joa...@stanfordalumni.org>, who got this from Rabbi Patricia
>Karlin-Neumann, Associate Dean for Religious Life, Stanford
>University, who got it from Suzannah Heschel herself, with permission
>to reprint it:
>When lecturing, I often mentioned my custom as one of many new
>feminist rituals that have been developed in the last twenty years.
>Somehow, though, the typical patriarchal maneuver occurred: My idea
>of an orange and my intention of affirming lesbians and gay men were
>transformed. Now the story circulates that a MAN said to me that a
>woman belongs on the bimah as an orange on the Seder plate. A woman's
>words are attributed to a man, and the affirmation of lesbians and gay
>men is simply erased.
This is really an odd thing to say, I think. While I don't have a problem
with putting oranges on the seder plate - hey, do whatever you want,
people - the "patriarchial" story has a certain ring to it. Some rotten
guy made a crack to a woman, and she responded by saying "oh, yeah? well
take this!" That's a satisfying story. But in Ms. Heschel's version, a
bunch of women said "we hereby declare that we don't belong, and we will
symbolize this in a hostile way." She then converted that into a
non-hostile expression. But who ever said they didn't belong? They
themselves? It takes all the "zing" out of the story.
I'm not denying that that's what happened, of course, it just makes the
orange seem like a really feeble political gesture.
--sg
>Isn't that precisely what's happened over the centuries to women's
>ideas?
>Susannah Heschel
>[4/5/01]
--
---------------------------------------
Steve Goldfarb Eppur si muove
s...@stevegoldfarb.com (and still, it moves)
http://stevegoldfarb.com/ - Galileo
Malcolm
"Steven Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote in message news:9b5677
>
> But who ever said they didn't belong? They themselves? It takes all the
"zing"
> out of the story.
>
> I'm not denying that that's what happened, of course, it just makes the
> orange seem like a really feeble political gesture.
>
Comunisits said, and everything, even crockery, was given some sort of
revolutionary role by being painted with the hammer and sickle or similar.
Similarly a change to attempt to politicise the seder is a very powerful
political ideal, and an orange is more subtle that chometz (which won't be
mainstream because it directly makes the rite unbiblical).
Hadass Eviatar
Quoting Susannah Heschel:
> Somehow, though, the typical patriarchal maneuver occurred: My idea
> of an orange and my intention of affirming lesbians and gay men were
> transformed. Now the story circulates that a MAN said to me that a
> woman belongs on the bimah as an orange on the Seder plate. A woman's
> words are attributed to a man, and the affirmation of lesbians and gay
> men is simply erased.
Coming in late on this ... I'm sorry Dr. Heschel feels this way about
it. I did not know about the lesbian/gay connection, but I don't think
it is invalidated by the use of the orange to symbolise the
contributions of women to Judaism. The widespread use of the orange
certainly suggests that her idea appealed to something very deep in our
collective psyche, clearly deeper than she intended.
Kol tuv, Hadass
--
Hadass Eviatar
Winnipeg, Canada
http://www.superhwy.net/~eviatar
To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d. Micah
6:8.
Eliyahu
"Hadass Eviatar" <hevi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3ADBD324...@home.com...
> Eric Simon wrote:
>
> Quoting Susannah Heschel:
>
> > Somehow, though, the typical patriarchal maneuver occurred: My idea
> > of an orange and my intention of affirming lesbians and gay men were
> > transformed. Now the story circulates that a MAN said to me that a
> > woman belongs on the bimah as an orange on the Seder plate. A woman's
> > words are attributed to a man, and the affirmation of lesbians and gay
> > men is simply erased.
>
> Coming in late on this ... I'm sorry Dr. Heschel feels this way about
> it. I did not know about the lesbian/gay connection, but I don't think
> it is invalidated by the use of the orange to symbolise the
> contributions of women to Judaism. The widespread use of the orange
> certainly suggests that her idea appealed to something very deep in our
> collective psyche, clearly deeper than she intended.
>
trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
promote social changes and ideology. Everyone has a cause (or several
causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote them
could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
grain to wigs and bricks. Politicizing our practices is certain to be
devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and social
lines.
A few years ago our community Seder included a "modern" magillah which ended
with the song "Down by the Riverside." Some of our people were a bit shocked
when I pointed out that the reason the singer of the song is "gonna put on
my long white robe, down by the riverside" is to be baptized and become a
Xtian... Some things are better left to tradition.
Jonathan J. Baker
>> Quoting Susannah Heschel:
>>
>> > Somehow, though, the typical patriarchal maneuver occurred: My idea
>> > of an orange and my intention of affirming lesbians and gay men were
>> > transformed. Now the story circulates that a MAN said to me that a
>> Coming in late on this ... I'm sorry Dr. Heschel feels this way about
>> it. I did not know about the lesbian/gay connection, but I don't think
>> it is invalidated by the use of the orange to symbolise the
>> contributions of women to Judaism. The widespread use of the orange
>Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
>trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
>promote social changes and ideology. Everyone has a cause (or several
>causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote them
>could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
>plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
>grain to wigs and bricks. Politicizing our practices is certain to be
>devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and social
>lines.
And how do you decide which causes are OK to symbolize at the seder, and
which are not? For instance, when I was in elementary school, the
principal (R' Lookstein) was very active in the Soviet Jewry movement.
We were given pamphlets to have a "Matza of Freedom" at the seder, which
would be on its own plate separate from the "official" matzot, and over
which we would say something about Soviet Jewry with the Rabban Gamliel
section. IIRC, my parents were not all that comfortable, even as (at the
time) non-O Jews, about adding new symbols and symbolisms to the Seder.
Why is that kosher, while the Miriam's Cup and the orange are looked upon
with suspicion by even the Mod-Os? Is it just that they were initiated
by women, or by non-Orthodox Jews?
>A few years ago our community Seder included a "modern" magillah which ended
>with the song "Down by the Riverside." Some of our people were a bit shocked
>when I pointed out that the reason the singer of the song is "gonna put on
>my long white robe, down by the riverside" is to be baptized and become a
>Xtian... Some things are better left to tradition.
The Saul Raskin haggadah has "Go Down Moses", which at least is not
theologically difficult. OTOH, we sing Avram Grumer's contemporary
"Banned from Egypt" at our seder, usually over dinner.
<http://www.pigsandfishes.org/filks/bannedfromegypt.html>
Not that Avram is particularly proud of the song, but we & our friends
like it.
Micha Berger
: Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
: trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
I would state my objection more broadly: I am deeply bothered and offended
by the trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in
order to promote anything other than the various ideas we think they
were created for.
Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft new
ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism" into meaning
"whatever fits the zeitgeist".
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287 - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l
Eliyahu
"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9bhinv$3lc$1...@panix6.panix.com...
because it was just a bit more of what was already there,rather than
something new and different. As I'm sure you already deduced, I'm opposed to
those changes as well. If we start making changes, additions and deletions
every time the social winds change or someone gets support for a new cause,
it only takes a couple generations for the seder to change into something
totally unrecognizable as those changes accumulate and accrete.
Eliot Shimoff
> : Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
> : trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
> : promote social changes and ideology....
Micha:
> I would state my objection more broadly: I am deeply bothered and offended
> by the trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in
> order to promote anything other than the various ideas we think they
> were created for.
>
> Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft new
> ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism" into meaning
> "whatever fits the zeitgeist".
I share Micha's concern. But it's not that the revised rituals promote
other ideologies as much as it is that the ritual _reflect_ ideologies
and themes that have already been changed.
I remember when my father a'h and I discussed the "Matzah of Freeddom"
designed to remind us of the plight of Soviet Jews. Was it appropriate
to modify the Seder ritual? We agreed that it was -- because of the
_Jewish_ aspect of Soviet Jewry. The theme wasn't simply "Let My people
go," but "Let My people go so that they shall worship Me." There's a
big difference.
The Seder has a structure and a history, and a halakhic basis. Within
that structure and history and halakha, there is lots of room for
certain
kinds of innovations. But when the Seder morphs into a celebration of
universal values of freedom, it does so only at the expense of its
structure, history, and halakha. When the Four Sons morph into the
privileged, the disabled [sorry -- "differently-abled"], the
economically
disavantaged, and the politically powerless, there is a cost. To the
extent that the Seder can be a meaningful experience for nonJewish
guests,
it necessarily has less meaning for the Jewish participants.
Midrash shifts from something that merits serious study to something
that
any of us can make up on our own. Kabbalah shifts from a subject so
esoteric
that very few can understand (despite years of study) to a text that can
be easily summarized in something akin to Cliff's Notes.
These innovations -- the Seder as a celebration of freedom,
"roll-your-own
midrash," understand Kabbalah in four easy lessons" are not additions;
they are replacements.
--
Eliot Shimoff
UMBC Psychology
Baltimore, MD 21250
410 455-2973 (lab)
410 455-2567 (dept. office)
410 455-1055 (fax)
http://www.umbc.edu/~shimoff
shi...@umbc.edu
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
for why we start the seder by eating a green vegetable is to encourage
the children to ask questions. If, on the other hand, you were to give
a child a green vegetable because his whining "mommy, I'm hungry" got
on your nerves -- would that be a Karpasifier?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"French bread makes very good skis"
Micha Berger
: And how do you decide which causes are OK to symbolize at the seder, and
: which are not? For instance, when I was in elementary school, the
: principal (R' Lookstein) was very active in the Soviet Jewry movement.
: We were given pamphlets to have a "Matza of Freedom" at the seder, which
: would be on its own plate separate from the "official" matzot, and over
: which we would say something about Soviet Jewry with the Rabban Gamliel
: section. IIRC, my parents were not all that comfortable, even as (at the
: time) non-O Jews, about adding new symbols and symbolisms to the Seder.
First, I am not sure I'm okay with the "Matzah of Freedom".
Second, as you describe it R' Lookstein wasn't trying to make it part
of the ke'arah. It was an added symbol, intentionally kept "on its own
plate separate from the 'official' matzot". There is a big difference
between adding to the seder and modifying it.
Third, I'm not sure how much of a modification it is. "And this is
what stood for our forefathers and for us. Because/That it wasn't just
one [nation] alone who stood against us to end us. Rather, in every
generation, [there are those] who stand against us to destroy us."
This "matzah of freedom" symbolizes an idea already in the seder. It's
not coopting the seder.
My discomfort mentioned above is over that issue. I wouldn't want the
contemporary message to overshadow and therefore modify.
: The Saul Raskin haggadah has "Go Down Moses", which at least is not
: theologically difficult. OTOH, we sing Avram Grumer's contemporary
: "Banned from Egypt" at our seder, usually over dinner.
At my father's seder, now mine, we have a tune for "betichila ovdei
avodah zarah hayu avoseinu" (In the begining, our ancestors [Terach et
al] were idol worshippers.) The sentence continues, but the song doesn't,
with "and now G-d brought us close to serve Him". It's a cheary little
tune.
It started with a joke: why does every other famous line from the
Haggada have a tune, but not this one?
wba...@panix.com
: "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
Interestingly, we had a discussion about this at our seder (Jon was not
there). We remembered the old Reconstructionist Haggada of the 30's or
40's that hung arond my folk house. It had quite a dated look to it.
Some of the changes, as I recall were lots of mention of Moses and more
direct telling of the story, not in the words of gemorrah and comparison
texts. There was also a "nice nelly" version of ehad mi yodea, changing 8
and 9, as it clearly was problematic to mention Brit Milah and (God
forbid) pregnancy at a family table. Quaint , to say the least. This, to
me is the problem with maing these changes. One of our guests said that
her family is now self conscious about a big printied right in the
Hagaddah piece on Soviet Jewry, related to letting my people go. Perhaps
the answer to this is to use xeroxed addendum that can be removed when no
longer applicable and only of historical interest. Before we became
observant and before I engaged in Torah study, I always enjoyed the
haggada and it's taste of traditional learning. For many it is the only
bit of this kind of material they ever see and learn. Revising to make it
more "contemporary" removes this link with tradition.
I feel the same about people who want to change the Torah reading for YK
from the description of the Kohein Gadol entering the Holy of Holys. It
puts us in touch, not only with Temple times, but with the generation that
lost the temple and had to sit around remembering what it was like and
creating a way to achieve absolution without the Azazel and the red thread
changing from red to white, and without the whole Temole service. These
people must have been quivering with fear that first year after the Temple
was destroyed, worrying that they all would die for lack of "proper "
atonement. I think of them during this reading and feel really close to
my ancestors and their thoughts at this time.
Wendy Baker
Hadass Eviatar
<snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
> Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
> trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
> promote social changes and ideology.
It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a Hannukiah in
the window?
Everyone has a cause (or several
> causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote them
> could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
> plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
> grain to wigs and bricks.
So, does Rabban Gamliel's seder plate include charoset? (Thank you,
Judith).
Politicizing our practices is certain to be
> devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and social
> lines.
What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the table
in honour of Miriam?
>
> A few years ago our community Seder included a "modern" magillah which ended
> with the song "Down by the Riverside." Some of our people were a bit shocked
> when I pointed out that the reason the singer of the song is "gonna put on
> my long white robe, down by the riverside" is to be baptized and become a
> Xtian... Some things are better left to tradition.
That's just ignorance. You can accuse Dr. Heschel of a lot of things,
but not of that.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> On 17 Apr 2001 07:02:53 GMT, Eliyahu <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> : Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
> : trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
> : promote social changes and ideology....
>
> I would state my objection more broadly: I am deeply bothered and offended
> by the trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in
> order to promote anything other than the various ideas we think they
> were created for.
Whatever Dr. Heschel's original intention may have been, the orange, as
used by most people today, does not promote anything. It is merely a
symbol of the increasing role of women in ritual life, which in turn
brings in new and fresh viewpoints on Torah and the life of Torah.
>
> Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft new
> ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism" into meaning
> "whatever fits the zeitgeist".
Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt? (My rabbi showed us a set of
woodcuts, showing a traditional Seder, in which there is indeed not a
single woman to be seen, not even serving food or in the picture
depicting the Exodus).
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Eric Simon wrote:
>
> Quoting Susannah Heschel:
>
>> Somehow, though, the typical patriarchal maneuver occurred: My idea
>> of an orange and my intention of affirming lesbians and gay men were
>> transformed. Now the story circulates that a MAN said to me that a
>> woman belongs on the bimah as an orange on the Seder plate. A woman's
>> words are attributed to a man, and the affirmation of lesbians and gay
>> men is simply erased.
>
> Coming in late on this ... I'm sorry Dr. Heschel feels this way about
> it. I did not know about the lesbian/gay connection, but I don't think
> it is invalidated by the use of the orange to symbolise the
> contributions of women to Judaism. The widespread use of the orange
> certainly suggests that her idea appealed to something very deep in our
> collective psyche, clearly deeper than she intended.
You mean if I don't put on orange on my seder plate I'm somehow
insulting lesbians. I wonder if Lisa puts one on hers.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
Eliyahu
> Eliyahu wrote:
>
> <snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
>
> > Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
> > trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
> > promote social changes and ideology.
>
> It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a Hannukiah in
> the window?
>
> Everyone has a cause (or several
> > causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote
them
> > could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
> > plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
> > grain to wigs and bricks.
>
> So, does Rabban Gamliel's seder plate include charoset? (Thank you,
> Judith).
I'll leave that one for someone more knowledgable than myself to answer.
>
> Politicizing our practices is certain to be
> > devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and social
> > lines.
>
> What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the table
> in honour of Miriam?
That one hasn't caught on here yet, so I haven't had the opportunity/need to
consider or explore it.
>
As I've mentioned elsewhere, one of the troubling things about introducing
changes in the Seder (or other ritualized observances) is that it only takes
a few generations until what we do is completely unrecognizable. Following a
traditional Seder gives us a fairly direct connection with our ancestors,
knowing that we are doing the same thing they did; asking and answering the
same questions, and creating the same connection with their ancestors who
left Mitzrayim for freedom. Once we start making changes, where do we stop?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Eliyahu wrote:
>
> <snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
>
>> Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
>> trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
>> promote social changes and ideology.
>
> It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a Hannukiah in
> the window?
On the night of Pesach!!??
> Everyone has a cause (or several
>> causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote them
>> could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
>> plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
>> grain to wigs and bricks.
>
> So, does Rabban Gamliel's seder plate include charoset? (Thank you,
> Judith).
Of course. Why do you think not?
> Politicizing our practices is certain to be
>> devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and social
>> lines.
>
> What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the
> table in honour of Miriam?
Huh?
>> A few years ago our community Seder included a "modern" magillah which ended
>> with the song "Down by the Riverside." Some of our people were a bit shocked
>> when I pointed out that the reason the singer of the song is "gonna put on
>> my long white robe, down by the riverside" is to be baptized and become a
>> Xtian... Some things are better left to tradition.
>
> That's just ignorance. You can accuse Dr. Heschel of a lot of things,
> but not of that.
Then she's much worse. She _knows_ and chooses to rebel.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Micha Berger wrote:
>> On 17 Apr 2001 07:02:53 GMT, Eliyahu <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> : Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
>> : trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
>> : promote social changes and ideology....
>>
>> I would state my objection more broadly: I am deeply bothered and offended
>> by the trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in
>> order to promote anything other than the various ideas we think they
>> were created for.
>
> Whatever Dr. Heschel's original intention may have been, the orange, as
> used by most people today, does not promote anything. It is merely a
> symbol of the increasing role of women in ritual life, which in turn
> brings in new and fresh viewpoints on Torah and the life of Torah.
>
>> Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft
>> new ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism"
>> into meaning "whatever fits the zeitgeist".
>
> Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new
> ideas into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
On the contrary, we were redeemed in the _merit_ of the righteous
women. See Rashi on Ex. 38:8. That's correct, right in the middle of
discussing the building of the Mishkan. It's easy to remember, there
is no Rashi on any of the adjacent verses.
> (My rabbi showed us a set of woodcuts, showing a traditional Seder,
> in which there is indeed not a single woman to be seen, not even
> serving food or in the picture depicting the Exodus).
And _my_ woodcut shows the women baking matzohs. So?
Micha Berger
: Whatever Dr. Heschel's original intention may have been, the orange, as
: used by most people today, does not promote anything. It is merely a
: symbol of the increasing role of women in ritual life, which in turn
: brings in new and fresh viewpoints on Torah and the life of Torah.
IOW, it promotes increasing the role of women in ritual life, and bringing
in fresh and new viewpoints.
Regardless of whether or not I agree with those goals, those are centers
of attention being added to the seder, competing with the seder's intended
messages.
:> Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft new
:> ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism" into meaning
:> "whatever fits the zeitgeist".
: Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
: into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
Women must participate in the seder, regardless of what was done in the
past. To cast what you wrote into a translation of the words the Talmud
uses: they too were in the same miracle. Women are equally obligated.
However, the seder isn't /about/ that participation. One should take it
as a given, rather than making it one of the messages of the evening.
The seder is a ritual about a particular thing. Making the ritual
about something else, or even making it also about something else,
is transvaluing the term "seder".
The Matzah of Freedom was based on the idea that it's not "something
else". Which is true in one sense. To the extent that this claim is not
true, I'm unhappy with the innovation. Perhaps if it were limited to
being an addition to the one paragraph I quoted earlier, the one point
at which the ritual mentions that Egypt was a pattern that repeats itself
through history, I would feel differently.
: (My rabbi showed us a set of
: woodcuts, showing a traditional Seder, in which there is indeed not a
: single woman to be seen, not even serving food or in the picture
: depicting the Exodus).
I'm happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
none depicted single women...? <grin>
As I said earlier, if this is an indication of what was done, it's
against halachah. I guess it is also possible the woodcutting didn't
depict women because religious artists (who were all male, I assume)
felt uncomfortable studying the female form well enough to get it right.
Polar
[...]
>'m happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
>none depicted single women...? <grin>
[...]
"Marry off". What a revolting phrase.
Like putting them out on the curb in the hope that
the trash truck will take them off your hands.
--
Polar
Micha Berger
:>'m happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
:>none depicted single women...? <grin>
: "Marry off". What a revolting phrase.
: Like putting them out on the curb in the hope that
: the trash truck will take them off your hands.
Well, in communities where marriages are arranged, children are "married
off". That is and was the reality.
If it makes you any happier, the term is equally used for sons. This isn't
a gender issue.
-mi
Henry Goodman
"Eliyahu" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tdqdv8n...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Hadass Eviatar" <hevi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3ADD2397...@home.com...
> > Eliyahu wrote:
> >
> > <snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
> >
> > > Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing
the
> > > trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order
to
> > > promote social changes and ideology.
> >
> > It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a Hannukiah in
> > the window?
> >
> > Everyone has a cause (or several
> > > causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to
promote
> them
> > > could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else
a
> > > plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit
and
> > > grain to wigs and bricks.
> >
> > So, does Rabban Gamliel's seder plate include charoset? (Thank you,
> > Judith).
Charoset is mentioned in th Gemara (Pesachim 114a)
>
> I'll leave that one for someone more knowledgable than myself to answer.
> >
> > Politicizing our practices is certain to be
> > > devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and
social
> > > lines.
> >
> > What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the table
> > in honour of Miriam?
We have water on the table; somebody always needs it when chocking over the
Maror (horse-radish) <g>
>
> That one hasn't caught on here yet, so I haven't had the opportunity/need
to
> consider or explore it.
> >
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Henry Goodman
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2001Apr1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
Do American feminists really put an orange on their Seder plates? I thought
it was just a joke.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
<henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>Do American feminists really put an orange on their Seder plates? I thought
>it was just a joke.
I've seen it done once or twice, but not very often, and we don't at
ours.
-Naomi
Hadass Eviatar
>
> On 18 Apr 2001 05:23:54 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
> : Whatever Dr. Heschel's original intention may have been, the orange, as
> : used by most people today, does not promote anything. It is merely a
> : symbol of the increasing role of women in ritual life, which in turn
> : brings in new and fresh viewpoints on Torah and the life of Torah.
>
> IOW, it promotes increasing the role of women in ritual life, and bringing
> in fresh and new viewpoints.
This is true.
>
> Regardless of whether or not I agree with those goals, those are centers
> of attention being added to the seder, competing with the seder's intended
> messages.
Hardly more than the hardboiled egg in salt water (BTW I recommend the
recipe for Huevos Haminados on the rec.food.cuisine.jewish archives -
much nicer than your usual rubber egg), which is not exactly part of
Rabban Gamliel's list of Seder obligations. Or the karpas, for that
matter. What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? The
orange, OTOH, signifies that just as we were all liberated from the
slavery of Egypt, now those of us who are women are liberated from the
slavery of silence.
>
> :> Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft new
> :> ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism" into meaning
> :> "whatever fits the zeitgeist".
>
> : Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
> : into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
>
> Women must participate in the seder, regardless of what was done in the
> past.
An innovation! Horrors!
To cast what you wrote into a translation of the words the Talmud
> uses: they too were in the same miracle. Women are equally obligated.
Glad to hear it.
>
> However, the seder isn't /about/ that participation. One should take it
> as a given, rather than making it one of the messages of the evening.
Well, since it obviously wasn't a given, it can't hurt to remark on it.
We talk about other innovations such as the Hillel sandwich, why not
this one?
> The seder is a ritual about a particular thing. Making the ritual
> about something else, or even making it also about something else,
> is transvaluing the term "seder".
It is about our birth as a nation. I don't think that adding one half of
that nation which was ignored is about something else.
>
> The Matzah of Freedom was based on the idea that it's not "something
> else". Which is true in one sense. To the extent that this claim is not
> true, I'm unhappy with the innovation. Perhaps if it were limited to
> being an addition to the one paragraph I quoted earlier, the one point
> at which the ritual mentions that Egypt was a pattern that repeats itself
> through history, I would feel differently.
The orange isn't even that much. It has no words at all attached to it,
except for the brief telling of the apocryphal story, which probably
happens during the meal anyway.
>
> : (My rabbi showed us a set of
> : woodcuts, showing a traditional Seder, in which there is indeed not a
> : single woman to be seen, not even serving food or in the picture
> : depicting the Exodus).
>
> I'm happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
> none depicted single women...? <grin>
Very funny, Micha 8-).
>
> As I said earlier, if this is an indication of what was done, it's
> against halachah. I guess it is also possible the woodcutting didn't
> depict women because religious artists (who were all male, I assume)
> felt uncomfortable studying the female form well enough to get it right.
Could be. They didn't do such a great job of the male form, either.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> writes:
> > Eliyahu wrote:
> >
> > <snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
> >
> >> Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find disturbing the
> >> trend toward revamping and changing our rituals and symbols in order to
> >> promote social changes and ideology.
> >
> > It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a Hannukiah in
> > the window?
>
> On the night of Pesach!!??
Being cute, are we, Moshe? 8-) Are you suggesting that the Hannukiah was
*not* instituted by the Sages to promote social changes and ideology?
>
> > Everyone has a cause (or several
> >> causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote them
> >> could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
> >> plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
> >> grain to wigs and bricks.
> >
> > So, does Rabban Gamliel's seder plate include charoset? (Thank you,
> > Judith).
>
> Of course. Why do you think not?
He mentions Pesach, matzah and maror as being the requirements for
fulfilling the obligation. While charoset is mentioned (thanks, Henry),
when did they start putting it on the Seder plate? Also, my Jerusalem
3000 Seder plate has a space for horseradish *and* maror, what am I
supposed to make of that? And when did the egg make its appearance?
>
> > Politicizing our practices is certain to be
> >> devisive and likely to polarize the community upon political and social
> >> lines.
> >
> > What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the
> > table in honour of Miriam?
>
> Huh?
Miriam, you know, Moshe's sister, the prophetess ... the one who had a
well follow her through the desert ... ring any bells? 8-)
>
> >> A few years ago our community Seder included a "modern" magillah which ended
> >> with the song "Down by the Riverside." Some of our people were a bit shocked
> >> when I pointed out that the reason the singer of the song is "gonna put on
> >> my long white robe, down by the riverside" is to be baptized and become a
> >> Xtian... Some things are better left to tradition.
> >
> > That's just ignorance. You can accuse Dr. Heschel of a lot of things,
> > but not of that.
>
> Then she's much worse. She _knows_ and chooses to rebel.
She is the daughter of Rabbi Heschel. She definitely knows. Her choice
to rebel is a considered one, I'm sure.
Hadass Eviatar
> Do American feminists really put an orange on their Seder plates? I thought
> it was just a joke.
Not just feminists. You can even buy Seder plates with a space for it,
at mainstream Judaica shops.
Eliyahu
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the
> > > table in honour of Miriam?
> >
> > Huh?
>
> Miriam, you know, Moshe's sister, the prophetess ... the one who had a
> well follow her through the desert ... ring any bells? 8-)
>
I think his "Huh?" was about the cup of water, not about Miriam. I've never
encountered this custom, either.
BAC...@vms.huji.ac.il
>From: Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com>
>Subject:Re: For further Passover discussion
>Date: 19 Apr 2001 04:44:17 GMT
>Message-ID:<3ADE6D07...@home.com>
>Micha Berger wrote:
>>
>> On 18 Apr 2001 05:23:54 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
>> : Whatever Dr. Heschel's original intention may have been, the orange, as
>> : used by most people today, does not promote anything. It is merely a
>> : symbol of the increasing role of women in ritual life, which in turn
>> : brings in new and fresh viewpoints on Torah and the life of Torah.
>>
>> IOW, it promotes increasing the role of women in ritual life, and bringing
>> in fresh and new viewpoints.
>
>This is true.
>
>>
>> Regardless of whether or not I agree with those goals, those are centers
>> of attention being added to the seder, competing with the seder's intended
>> messages.
>
>Hardly more than the hardboiled egg in salt water (BTW I recommend the
Eating an egg is mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAIM 476:2 in the
Rema. Tisha B'Av always starts on the same day of the week as the night
of the Seder. The egg, a food used by mourners, reminds us of the Churban
(destruction of the Temple that occurred on Tisha B'Av. Another reason given
is that the egg on the Seder plate represents the *korban chagiga* in the
Temple and we are to eat an egg (not the one on the Seder plate) as a
remembrance.
>recipe for Huevos Haminados on the rec.food.cuisine.jewish archives -
>much nicer than your usual rubber egg), which is not exactly part of
>Rabban Gamliel's list of Seder obligations. Or the karpas, for that
>matter. What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? The
Dipping a vegetable in salt water is already mentioned in the Mishna
(Arvei Pesachim). The reason why KARPAS specifically is used is twofold:
[see: TUR Orach Chaim 473 "v'lokeach yerakot v'yivarech borei pri
ha'adamah, v'tovel kedai la'asot shinui bishvil hatinokot she'yishalu"]
so the children will ask [look at MA NISHTANAH] why we're doing something
so out of the ordinary; and that KARPAS in gematria is SAMECH PARECH
600,000 Jews who were slaves in Egypt.
Josh
Micha Berger
instead of back-and-forth. My apologies to Hadass for mangling her
words. -mi]
On 19 Apr 2001 04:44:17 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
: Hardly more than the hardboiled egg in salt water...
: , which is not exactly part of
: Rabban Gamliel's list of Seder obligations. Or the karpas, for that
: matter. What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? ...
Neither of these are inovations designed to introduce a new theme to
the seder. They are rituals designed to underscore the theme: the egg
addresses the state of mourning of pre-redemption (note Josh's comparison
to the pre-Tish'a B'av meal), the karpas has meanings, and is to instigate
questions, as per the third question in Mah Nishtanah.
: Well, since it obviously wasn't a given, it can't hurt to remark on it.
: We talk about other innovations such as the Hillel sandwich, why not
: this one?
And this one isn't even an innovation. Hillel required that the Passover
offering be eaten as a sandwich. He lived during the 2nd Temple. We are
commemorating the meal in which the offering was eaten, so we need to
remember his opinion about that meal as well.
But this is a shade off-point. I'm more interested in the difference
between maintaining ritual, adding ritual, and adding a ritual that draws
sufficient attention as to be a distraction, and therefore a diminution,
of the traditional message.
The latter shifts the focus, and therefore the meaning, of the traditional
practice. Transvaluing the seder.
: What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? The
: orange, OTOH, signifies that just as we were all liberated from the
: slavery of Egypt, now those of us who are women are liberated from the
: slavery of silence.
"Slavery of silence" is a nice bit of poetry, but it doesn't wash. Having
a more limited choice of lifestyles isn't servitude. Nor is it
particularly Jewish servitude -- IOW, commemorating those children
who died when a slave ship sunk yesterday (yes, that's really in the
newspaper) isn't on topic either. Nor does it address the connection
between the cycle of oppression and physical redemption that runs through
Jewish history and the spiritual redemption that runs through it as well.
And even discussing other examples of the "Egypt effect" are not central
to the seder's message. 80% of the Torah focusses on this particular
story for a multitude of reasons. The other cases aren't going to have
that richness, not least because they don't have the Torah's descriptive
text to work with.
:> : Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
:> : into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
:> Women must participate in the seder, regardless of what was done in the
:> past.
: An innovation! Horrors!
: To cast what you wrote into a translation of the words the Talmud
:> uses: they too were in the same miracle. Women are equally obligated.
: Glad to hear it.
Then you should have deleted "An innovation! Horrors!" It's not an
innovation. The opposite: the lack of participation, if real, was a bad
innovation that thankfully is fading away.
By bad innovation I mean two things: it's unfair for no redeeming purpose;
it detracts from the message the Torah wants the ritual to impart because
it reduces the audience.
:> The seder is a ritual about a particular thing. Making the ritual
:> about something else, or even making it also about something else,
:> is transvaluing the term "seder".
: It is about our birth as a nation. I don't think that adding one half of
: that nation which was ignored is about something else.
But you aren't making it "also about the women who experienced and
assisted the birth of the nation". You're making it about woman's
rights and liberation in the past century. And not even Jewish women
in particular.
BTW, a thought just hit me while reading your words: I'm sure it's no
coincidence that the story opens with Pharoah speaking to two *midwives*.
Binyamin Dissen
:>Micha Berger wrote:
[ snipped ]
:>> However, the seder isn't /about/ that participation. One should take it
:>> as a given, rather than making it one of the messages of the evening.
:>Well, since it obviously wasn't a given, it can't hurt to remark on it.
:>We talk about other innovations such as the Hillel sandwich, why not
:>this one?
Exactly what was the "innovation"?
It was Hillels understanding of the proper way to eat the Pesach.
[ snipped ]
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@netvision.net.il>
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
meirm...@erols.com
BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL posted:
>
>
>>recipe for Huevos Haminados on the rec.food.cuisine.jewish archives -
>>much nicer than your usual rubber egg), which is not exactly part of
>>Rabban Gamliel's list of Seder obligations. Or the karpas, for that
>>matter. What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? The
No vegetable is free when parsley is in chains.
And what Josh said too.
>Dipping a vegetable in salt water is already mentioned in the Mishna
>(Arvei Pesachim). The reason why KARPAS specifically is used is twofold:
>[see: TUR Orach Chaim 473 "v'lokeach yerakot v'yivarech borei pri
>ha'adamah, v'tovel kedai la'asot shinui bishvil hatinokot she'yishalu"]
>so the children will ask [look at MA NISHTANAH] why we're doing something
>so out of the ordinary; and that KARPAS in gematria is SAMECH PARECH
>600,000 Jews who were slaves in Egypt.
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> [I'm reordering my quotes so that this email runs from topic to topic
> instead of back-and-forth. My apologies to Hadass for mangling her
> words. -mi]
Apology accepted. Since I only have time for SCJM around midnight, I
don't remember what I wrote originally anyway 8-).
<snip stuff about other Seder innovations>
> But this is a shade off-point. I'm more interested in the difference
> between maintaining ritual, adding ritual, and adding a ritual that draws
> sufficient attention as to be a distraction, and therefore a diminution,
> of the traditional message.
The orange doesn't draw that much attention, IME. Especially once you
expect it to be there. Now if it were bread ... <grin>
>
> The latter shifts the focus, and therefore the meaning, of the traditional
> practice. Transvaluing the seder.
It doesn't shift the focus of the entire seder, for heaven's sake. It
takes about 5 minutes out of the four hours <yawn>.
>
> : What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? The
> : orange, OTOH, signifies that just as we were all liberated from the
> : slavery of Egypt, now those of us who are women are liberated from the
> : slavery of silence.
>
> "Slavery of silence" is a nice bit of poetry, but it doesn't wash.
Thanks for the kind words 8-).
Having
> a more limited choice of lifestyles isn't servitude.
Who is talking about lifestyle? The stories that people tell, about
being forbidden to say Kaddish for their parents, forbidden to study
Gemarah, etc., are not lifestyle issues. They are life-changing,
traumatic experiences. Spending 5 minutes commemorating the fact that
women's voices were once not heard, and now they are, is the least we
can do, IMHO.
Nor is it
> particularly Jewish servitude -- IOW, commemorating those children
> who died when a slave ship sunk yesterday (yes, that's really in the
> newspaper) isn't on topic either. Nor does it address the connection
> between the cycle of oppression and physical redemption that runs through
> Jewish history and the spiritual redemption that runs through it as well.
Oh, I don't know, you could connect it with Miriam's cup ...
>
> And even discussing other examples of the "Egypt effect" are not central
> to the seder's message. 80% of the Torah focusses on this particular
> story for a multitude of reasons. The other cases aren't going to have
> that richness, not least because they don't have the Torah's descriptive
> text to work with.
Sure. But that doesn't mean you can't spend 5 minutes on an innovation.
>
> :> : Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
> :> : into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
>
> :> Women must participate in the seder, regardless of what was done in the
> :> past.
>
> : An innovation! Horrors!
>
> : To cast what you wrote into a translation of the words the Talmud
> :> uses: they too were in the same miracle. Women are equally obligated.
>
> : Glad to hear it.
>
> Then you should have deleted "An innovation! Horrors!" It's not an
> innovation. The opposite: the lack of participation, if real, was a bad
> innovation that thankfully is fading away.
SDNWOTN.
>
> By bad innovation I mean two things: it's unfair for no redeeming purpose;
> it detracts from the message the Torah wants the ritual to impart because
> it reduces the audience.
Why should anyone have cared whether women heard the story or not? They
probably didn't understand the Hebrew anyway, since nobody bothered to
teach it to them.
>
> :> The seder is a ritual about a particular thing. Making the ritual
> :> about something else, or even making it also about something else,
> :> is transvaluing the term "seder".
>
> : It is about our birth as a nation. I don't think that adding one half of
> : that nation which was ignored is about something else.
>
> But you aren't making it "also about the women who experienced and
> assisted the birth of the nation".
This is where Miriam's cup comes in. If ever a woman experienced and
assisted the birth of the nation ...
You're making it about woman's
> rights and liberation in the past century. And not even Jewish women
> in particular.
No, it is about Jewish women's liberation in particular, at least the
way we do it. We are celebrating the fact that women are now on the
bimah, reading Torah, leading services, participating in the public
ritual life of the community. I know you don't think that is
particularly worth celebrating, Micha, but that's where we differ 8-).
>
> BTW, a thought just hit me while reading your words: I'm sure it's no
> coincidence that the story opens with Pharoah speaking to two *midwives*.
Of course it isn't! Mitzrayim (Egypt) means "The Narrow Place". After
much pain and travail, a new entity comes forth. I have heard Orthodox
women describe giving birth as "k'riyat Yam Soof", the tearing of the
Sea of Reeds. I'm surprised men even dare touch the story <grin>.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> "Hadass Eviatar" <hevi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3ADE6E46...@home.com...
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the
> > > > table in honour of Miriam?
> > >
> > > Huh?
> >
> > Miriam, you know, Moshe's sister, the prophetess ... the one who had a
> > well follow her through the desert ... ring any bells? 8-)
> >
> I think his "Huh?" was about the cup of water, not about Miriam. I've never
> encountered this custom, either.
Oy vey, two cases of SDNWOTN in one thread ... I really must stop doing
this in the middle of the night ...
My friend Judith (whom Moshe knows, BTW), found a beautiful Miriam's cup
for sale in the gift shop of what purports to be the oldest Orthodox
shul in North America, in Philadelphia. She kindly brought it with her
when she came to the first Seder in my house. We do not, of course,
mention Miriam's name, just as we don't mention Moshe's. But obviously
there are others out there who do it. You might want to do a Web search
on "Miriam's cup", and see what you bring up.
Micha Berger
:> Having a more limited choice of lifestyles isn't servitude.
: Who is talking about lifestyle? The stories that people tell, about
: being forbidden to say Kaddish for their parents, forbidden to study
: Gemarah, etc., are not lifestyle issues. They are life-changing,
: traumatic experiences. Spending 5 minutes commemorating the fact that
: women's voices were once not heard, and now they are, is the least we
: can do, IMHO.
None of which is actually slavery, or oppresion by antisemites.
You wrote about a "slavery of silence". The use of the word "slavery"
there is a touch of poetic metaphor. It wasn't actual slavery.
: Oh, I don't know, you could connect it with Miriam's cup ...
I wouldn't do that either. Miriam's cup might good a good idea for
Succos, where we commemorate being sustained in the desert.
But in any case, it's not whether or not you can connect it with some
theme in the seder, it's whether or not you are trying to make the
seder, or part of the seder, into being about something other than
what a seder is for.
The seder is supposed to be a soapbox for other issues. Regardless of
those issues' merit. Similarly, mentioning the Israeli MIAs at the
seder, an idea the (U) promoted, is not my speed. Except, *perhaps*,
as part of 'Vehi sheamdah' when we discuss that the pattern repeats
through our history, or at "shefoch chamascha al hagoyim" (pour out
Your "Anger" upon the nations [that do not know You]).
:> And even discussing other examples of the "Egypt effect" are not central
:> to the seder's message. 80% of the Torah focusses on this particular
:> story for a multitude of reasons. The other cases aren't going to have
:> that richness, not least because they don't have the Torah's descriptive
:> text to work with.
: Sure. But that doesn't mean you can't spend 5 minutes on an innovation.
Yes it does. Because to someone dedicated to the cause, those become an
important or central 5 minutes.
: Why should anyone have cared whether women heard the story or not? They
: probably didn't understand the Hebrew anyway, since nobody bothered to
: teach it to them.
What year are the woodcarvings from?
Also, what about the Yiddish used at the seder, discussing the Hebrew?
Or the actions of the seder? Or the fact that they're OBLIGATED to
participate. People of the same era davened in a Hebrew most of them
couldn't follow much of. Particularly piyutim (liturgical poems). It
didn't stop them from doing it.
: You're making it about woman's
:> rights and liberation in the past century. And not even Jewish women
:> in particular.
: No, it is about Jewish women's liberation in particular, at least the
: way we do it. We are celebrating the fact that women are now on the
: bimah, reading Torah, leading services, participating in the public
: ritual life of the community. I know you don't think that is
: particularly worth celebrating, Micha, but that's where we differ 8-).
I want to stay away from that aspect, since I have similar objections to
mixing the MIAs into the seder, and would even object to someone making
a seder ritual about Jewish children being thrown into the Nile of the
American adoption system (a cause I'm very committed to).
: http://www.superhwy.net/~eviatar
: To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d. Micah
: 6:8.
Smart man, that Michah. BTW, see http://www.aishdas.org/asp/balak.html
-- Michah's summary of the mitzvos into three overarching categories
parallels Rabban Gamliel's version of the seder. There's a reason why
both come in threes.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> On 20 Apr 2001 05:07:15 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
> :> Having a more limited choice of lifestyles isn't servitude.
>
> : Who is talking about lifestyle? The stories that people tell, about
> : being forbidden to say Kaddish for their parents, forbidden to study
> : Gemarah, etc., are not lifestyle issues. They are life-changing,
> : traumatic experiences. Spending 5 minutes commemorating the fact that
> : women's voices were once not heard, and now they are, is the least we
> : can do, IMHO.
>
> None of which is actually slavery, or oppresion by antisemites.
No, oppression by their own husbands and fathers, which is in many ways
worse. But I know that this is not the core of the argument (see below).
>
> You wrote about a "slavery of silence". The use of the word "slavery"
> there is a touch of poetic metaphor. It wasn't actual slavery.
It reminds me a bit of the Hebrew slave, who said, I love my wife and
children and master, I will not go free. Since he chose to remain, was
he still a slave?
>
> : Oh, I don't know, you could connect it with Miriam's cup ...
>
> I wouldn't do that either. Miriam's cup might good a good idea for
> Succos, where we commemorate being sustained in the desert.
Oh, cool! Thanks for the idea! Something to discuss come fall ...
>
> But in any case, it's not whether or not you can connect it with some
> theme in the seder, it's whether or not you are trying to make the
> seder, or part of the seder, into being about something other than
> what a seder is for.
I understand that argument entirely. In principle I rather agree. But
since it has become established practice in many communities to add
discussion of other oppressed Jews to the Seder (the old Orthodox
Haggadot we have discuss Soviet Jewry), why should only the women be
excluded?
>
> The seder is supposed to be a soapbox for other issues. Regardless of
> those issues' merit.
I presume you left out the word NOT.
Similarly, mentioning the Israeli MIAs at the
> seder, an idea the (U) promoted, is not my speed. Except, *perhaps*,
> as part of 'Vehi sheamdah' when we discuss that the pattern repeats
> through our history, or at "shefoch chamascha al hagoyim" (pour out
> Your "Anger" upon the nations [that do not know You]).
Well, again, if we can mention MIAs, why not women? You can't have it
both ways, IMHO.
>
> :> And even discussing other examples of the "Egypt effect" are not central
> :> to the seder's message. 80% of the Torah focusses on this particular
> :> story for a multitude of reasons. The other cases aren't going to have
> :> that richness, not least because they don't have the Torah's descriptive
> :> text to work with.
>
> : Sure. But that doesn't mean you can't spend 5 minutes on an innovation.
>
> Yes it does. Because to someone dedicated to the cause, those become an
> important or central 5 minutes.
OK. But then kick out all the others, too.
>
> : Why should anyone have cared whether women heard the story or not? They
> : probably didn't understand the Hebrew anyway, since nobody bothered to
> : teach it to them.
>
> What year are the woodcarvings from?
Good question - I'll ask my rabbi. They do contain perspective, which
means they are later than the Middle Ages.
>
> Also, what about the Yiddish used at the seder, discussing the Hebrew?
> Or the actions of the seder? Or the fact that they're OBLIGATED to
> participate. People of the same era davened in a Hebrew most of them
> couldn't follow much of. Particularly piyutim (liturgical poems). It
> didn't stop them from doing it.
No, but then they were expected to. I was at a pidyon haben at our local
Lubavitch house a few weeks ago. All the Torah talk was on the other
side of the mechitzah, and I don't think any of the women (except the
Rebbitzen and I) listened to it. The women didn't join in Birkat
Hamazon, either, even though they are supposed to, not even quietly.
Again, I saw the Rebbitzen quietly doing it by herself later, but the
others just ignored the whole thing. It was very painful for me to see.
>
> : You're making it about woman's
> :> rights and liberation in the past century. And not even Jewish women
> :> in particular.
>
> : No, it is about Jewish women's liberation in particular, at least the
> : way we do it. We are celebrating the fact that women are now on the
> : bimah, reading Torah, leading services, participating in the public
> : ritual life of the community. I know you don't think that is
> : particularly worth celebrating, Micha, but that's where we differ 8-).
>
> I want to stay away from that aspect, since I have similar objections to
> mixing the MIAs into the seder, and would even object to someone making
> a seder ritual about Jewish children being thrown into the Nile of the
> American adoption system (a cause I'm very committed to).
Fair enough.
>
> : http://www.superhwy.net/~eviatar
> : To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d. Micah
> : 6:8.
>
> Smart man, that Michah. BTW, see http://www.aishdas.org/asp/balak.html
> -- Michah's summary of the mitzvos into three overarching categories
> parallels Rabban Gamliel's version of the seder. There's a reason why
> both come in threes.
Do tell!
Kol tuv, Hadass
--
Hadass Eviatar
Winnipeg, Canada
Joel Rosenberg
> Micha Berger wrote:
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2001 05:07:15 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
> > :> Having a more limited choice of lifestyles isn't servitude.
> >
> > : Who is talking about lifestyle? The stories that people tell, about
> > : being forbidden to say Kaddish for their parents, forbidden to study
> > : Gemarah, etc., are not lifestyle issues. They are life-changing,
> > : traumatic experiences. Spending 5 minutes commemorating the fact that
> > : women's voices were once not heard, and now they are, is the least we
> > : can do, IMHO.
> >
> > None of which is actually slavery, or oppresion by antisemites.
>
> No, oppression by their own husbands and fathers, which is in many ways
> worse. But I know that this is not the core of the argument (see below).
>
> >
> > You wrote about a "slavery of silence". The use of the word "slavery"
> > there is a touch of poetic metaphor. It wasn't actual slavery.
>
> It reminds me a bit of the Hebrew slave, who said, I love my wife and
> children and master, I will not go free. Since he chose to remain, was
> he still a slave?
Depends, I guess. Assuming that Judaic law is actually applied -- like, for
example, the prohibition against returning an escaped slave to his
"owner" -- the meaning of the word "slave" is very different than what was
practiced in the pre-Civil War southern US, for example.
Micha Berger
:> But in any case, it's not whether or not you can connect it with some
:> theme in the seder, it's whether or not you are trying to make the
:> seder, or part of the seder, into being about something other than
:> what a seder is for.
: I understand that argument entirely. In principle I rather agree.
So, we got quite a distance in this discussion.
: But
: since it has become established practice in many communities to add
: discussion of other oppressed Jews to the Seder (the old Orthodox
: Haggadot we have discuss Soviet Jewry), why should only the women be
: excluded?
This is the same question as:
:> Similarly, mentioning the Israeli MIAs at the
:> seder, an idea the (U) promoted, is not my speed. Except, *perhaps*,
:> as part of 'Vehi sheamdah' when we discuss that the pattern repeats
:> through our history, or at "shefoch chamascha al hagoyim" (pour out
:> Your "Anger" upon the nations [that do not know You]).
: Well, again, if we can mention MIAs, why not women? You can't have it
: both ways, IMHO.
In both cases, I wouldn not, and did not, follow that practice. I disagree
with it too.
What I was trying to say, though, is that since the haggadah itself brings
in the idea of others who try to terminate the Jewish people, I can see
someone arguing that the matzah of freedom or the 4 missing sons (the MIAs)
are within the seder's original theme.
In order to apply the same argument to women's rights, you would have to
say that unequal treatment in general is the theme of the seder. Not
slavery, not Jewish survival, not the fact that the covenant guarantees
that survival. It shifts the attention from G-d and the Jews to human
liberating human.
:> Yes it does. Because to someone dedicated to the cause, those become an
:> important or central 5 minutes.
: OK. But then kick out all the others, too.
As I said -- personally, I would.
Micha Berger
: To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d. Micah
: 6:8.
My reply:
:> Smart man, that Michah. BTW, see http://www.aishdas.org/asp/balak.html
:> -- Michah's summary of the mitzvos into three overarching categories
:> parallels Rabban Gamliel's version of the seder. There's a reason why
:> both come in threes.
On 20 Apr 2001 17:01:54 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
: Do tell!
It's a very long subject. This summary will be even shorter than the
articles at the URL I posted.
In short: the three pillars of the world are Torah, service of G-d,
and acts of kindness (Avos 1:2).
Torah is study and self-improvement, as a category it refers to man's
relationship with himself. Worship is obviously man's relationship with
G-d, and kindness is the central theme of man's relationship with other
people (Maharal, Derech Hachaim ad loc).
The three foods of the seder are the passover offering, matza and maror.
The passover offering is an offering, lit a "korban", a means of getting
closer to G-d. Matzah is poor man's bread, it's the bread of modesty
of haste to do the right thing -- in short, it's an object model in
how to properly mold oneself. Maror is reliving another's suffering.
It teaches empathy and kindness.
Performing justice is mapped by the Talmud (Makos 24a) to be following
G-d's law, which I am suggesting is the pillar of worship, between man
and G-d. Loving kindness is obviously the pillar of kindness between
one man and another -- the Talmud even uses the same expression for
both. And being modest is like matzah, the poor man's bread.
Both come in threes because man's life centers on three relationships.
meirm...@erols.com
Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> posted:
>On 17 Apr 2001 14:08:04 GMT, Jonathan J. Baker <jjb...@panix.com> wrote:
>: And how do you decide which causes are OK to symbolize at the seder, and
>: which are not? For instance, when I was in elementary school, the
>: principal (R' Lookstein) was very active in the Soviet Jewry movement.
>: We were given pamphlets to have a "Matza of Freedom" at the seder, which
>: would be on its own plate separate from the "official" matzot, and over
>: which we would say something about Soviet Jewry with the Rabban Gamliel
>: section. IIRC, my parents were not all that comfortable, even as (at the
>: time) non-O Jews, about adding new symbols and symbolisms to the Seder.
>
>First, I am not sure I'm okay with the "Matzah of Freedom".
>
>Second, as you describe it R' Lookstein wasn't trying to make it part
>of the ke'arah. It was an added symbol, intentionally kept "on its own
>plate separate from the 'official' matzot". There is a big difference
>between adding to the seder and modifying it.
>
>Third, I'm not sure how much of a modification it is. "And this is
>what stood for our forefathers and for us. Because/That it wasn't just
>one [nation] alone who stood against us to end us. Rather, in every
>generation, [there are those] who stand against us to destroy us."
>
>This "matzah of freedom" symbolizes an idea already in the seder. It's
>not coopting the seder.
>
>My discomfort mentioned above is over that issue. I wouldn't want the
>contemporary message to overshadow and therefore modify.
It's an interesting question. My impression, and I have no good data,
is that people have dropped the matzah of freedom now that emigration
from the FSU is possible. That would be the best of both worlds.
right?
Also for many people who adopted it, Pesach was by far the biggest or
one of the three biggest Jewish days of the year. To get them
involved, maybe this was the only way. (I don't mean the orgnanizers
but those one or two level removed.)
I'll also point out the Recon Hagaddah, which someone referred to as
telling more of the story than the traditional Hagaddah. I've decided
the reason for that is that, the others come to the seder knowing the
story, but for Recons, they needed that night to learn it. Possible?
>
Eliot, the recon hagaddah, my version published in 1941, definitely
morphs into "universal values of freedom". It lists various ways
people can be enslaved, including by poverty. To tell you the truth,
this was the one page I included, in addition to the traditional
hagaddah, at my seder 10 years ago. I'll have to think about this
some more.
>
>-mi
meirm...@erols.com
Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> posted:
>(My rabbi showed us a set of
>: woodcuts, showing a traditional Seder, in which there is indeed not a
>: single woman to be seen, not even serving food or in the picture
>: depicting the Exodus).
>
>I'm happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
>none depicted single women...? <grin>
>
>As I said earlier, if this is an indication of what was done, it's
>against halachah. I guess it is also possible the woodcutting didn't
>depict women because religious artists (who were all male, I assume)
All that needs be necessary is that the artist who did this set was.
>felt uncomfortable studying the female form well enough to get it right.
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
Michael Shimshoni
19 Apr 2001 10:56:42 GMT Dr Backon wrote:
%X-News: hujicc soc.culture.jewish.moderated:32044
%
%>From: Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com>
%>Subject:Re: For further Passover discussion
%>Date: 19 Apr 2001 04:44:17 GMT
%>Message-ID:<3ADE6D07...@home.com>
%
%>Micha Berger wrote:
%>>
%>> On 18 Apr 2001 05:23:54 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
%>> : Whatever Dr. Heschel's original intention may have been, the orange, as
%>> : used by most people today, does not promote anything. It is merely a
%>> : symbol of the increasing role of women in ritual life, which in turn
%>> : brings in new and fresh viewpoints on Torah and the life of Torah.
%>>
%>> IOW, it promotes increasing the role of women in ritual life, and bringing
%>> in fresh and new viewpoints.
%>
%>This is true.
%>
%>>
%>> Regardless of whether or not I agree with those goals, those are centers
%>> of attention being added to the seder, competing with the seder's intended
%>> messages.
%>
%>Hardly more than the hardboiled egg in salt water (BTW I recommend the
%
%
%Eating an egg is mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAIM 476:2 in the
%Rema. Tisha B'Av always starts on the same day of the week as the night
=================================================================
%of the Seder. The egg, a food used by mourners, reminds us of the Churban
============
%(destruction of the Temple that occurred on Tisha B'Av. Another reason given
%is that the egg on the Seder plate represents the *korban chagiga* in the
%Temple and we are to eat an egg (not the one on the Seder plate) as a
%remembrance.
Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
case not eat an egg?
%>recipe for Huevos Haminados on the rec.food.cuisine.jewish archives -
%>much nicer than your usual rubber egg), which is not exactly part of
%>Rabban Gamliel's list of Seder obligations. Or the karpas, for that
%>matter. What message of liberation does a piece of parsley send? The
%
%
%
%Dipping a vegetable in salt water is already mentioned in the Mishna
%(Arvei Pesachim). The reason why KARPAS specifically is used is twofold:
%[see: TUR Orach Chaim 473 "v'lokeach yerakot v'yivarech borei pri
%ha'adamah, v'tovel kedai la'asot shinui bishvil hatinokot she'yishalu"]
%so the children will ask [look at MA NISHTANAH] why we're doing something
%so out of the ordinary; and that KARPAS in gematria is SAMECH PARECH
%600,000 Jews who were slaves in Egypt.
As usual ignoring the Jewish women slaves, who are not included in that
600,000 number. Not nice! They had a tough time as well.
%>orange, OTOH, signifies that just as we were all liberated from the
%>slavery of Egypt, now those of us who are women are liberated from the
%>slavery of silence.
%>
%>>
%>> :> Jewish practice should be used to promote Judaism, not to graft new
%>> :> ideas into it, until we've transvalued the word "Judaism" into meaning
%>> :> "whatever fits the zeitgeist".
%>>
%>> : Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
%>> : into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
%>>
%>> Women must participate in the seder, regardless of what was done in the
%>> past.
%>
%>An innovation! Horrors!
%>
%> To cast what you wrote into a translation of the words the Talmud
%>> uses: they too were in the same miracle. Women are equally obligated.
%>
%>Glad to hear it.
%>
%>>
%>> However, the seder isn't /about/ that participation. One should take it
%>> as a given, rather than making it one of the messages of the evening.
%>
%>Well, since it obviously wasn't a given, it can't hurt to remark on it.
%>We talk about other innovations such as the Hillel sandwich, why not
%>this one?
%>
%>> The seder is a ritual about a particular thing. Making the ritual
%>> about something else, or even making it also about something else,
%>> is transvaluing the term "seder".
%>
%>It is about our birth as a nation. I don't think that adding one half of
%>that nation which was ignored is about something else.
%>
%>>
%>> The Matzah of Freedom was based on the idea that it's not "something
%>> else". Which is true in one sense. To the extent that this claim is not
%>> true, I'm unhappy with the innovation. Perhaps if it were limited to
%>> being an addition to the one paragraph I quoted earlier, the one point
%>> at which the ritual mentions that Egypt was a pattern that repeats itself
%>> through history, I would feel differently.
%>
%>The orange isn't even that much. It has no words at all attached to it,
%>except for the brief telling of the apocryphal story, which probably
%>happens during the meal anyway.
%>
%>>
%>> : (My rabbi showed us a set of
%>> : woodcuts, showing a traditional Seder, in which there is indeed not a
%>> : single woman to be seen, not even serving food or in the picture
%>> : depicting the Exodus).
%>>
%>> I'm happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
%>> none depicted single women...? <grin>
%>
%>Very funny, Micha 8-).
%>
%>> As I said earlier, if this is an indication of what was done, it's
%>> against halachah. I guess it is also possible the woodcutting didn't
%>> depict women because religious artists (who were all male, I assume)
%>> felt uncomfortable studying the female form well enough to get it right.
%>
%>Could be. They didn't do such a great job of the male form, either.
%>
%>Kol tuv, Hadass
%
%Josh
%
%>Hadass Eviatar
Michael Shimshoni
BAC...@vms.huji.ac.il
In that case, it's "l'zecher gova ha'mayim b'yam suf" :-) :-) :-)
[sorry: I can't translate]
Josh
Binyamin Dissen
wrote:
[ snipped ]
:>Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
:>case not eat an egg?
The Chaggiga was brought on Friday.
You may have wished to refer to Motza'ay Shabbat.
Henry Goodman
"Michael Shimshoni" <MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il> wrote in message
news:9bu33i$u25$1...@condor.nj.org...
I think you must mean when the Seder is Motzei Shabbat (like this year).
When Erev pesach was on Shabbat the Pesach was dochei Shabbat (overrode the
Sabbath) but the Chagiga did not so there was none in such years.
We had eggs as usual; I think most people do.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>>'m happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
>
>
> "Marry off". What a revolting phrase.
Polar, you have a knack for misreading _everything_ according to your
bias. I'm still reeling about your answer to Anja about kashrut. Now
you take an ancient and respected expression, which Jewish parents
pray for in all ages, and turn it on it's head. Pity.
> Like putting them out on the curb in the hope that
> the trash truck will take them off your hands.
You really have an *interesting* imagination. <sigh>
BTW, how many children have _you_ married off?
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> writes:
>> > Eliyahu wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
There seems to be much "feminism" being discussed here. To follow
Josh's advice, I'll try not to comment on something I know very
little (nothing?) about. I _will_ try to answer direct questions
about Jewish ritual and practice, to the best of my inadequate
ability.
>> >> Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find
>> >> disturbing the trend toward revamping and changing our rituals
>> >> and symbols in order to promote social changes and ideology.
>> >
>> > It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a
>> > Hannukiah in the window?
>>
>> On the night of Pesach!!??
>
> Being cute, are we, Moshe? 8-)
Yes. Glad you appreciated the humor.
> Are you suggesting that the Hannukiah was *not* instituted by the
> Sages to promote social changes and ideology?
Whew is that a loaded question. Why not just say that the Hannukiah
was "instituted" (I would prefer "ordained") to "remember the
miracle".
Now ask me a hard one. ;-)
>> > Everyone has a cause (or several
>> >> causes) of importance to them, and utilizing the Seder plate to promote them
>> >> could easily end up with either a myriad of different minhagim or else a
>> >> plate the size of a banquet table filled with everything from fruit and
>> >> grain to wigs and bricks.
>> >
>> > So, does Rabban Gamliel's seder plate include charoset? (Thank you,
>> > Judith).
>>
>> Of course. Why do you think not?
>
> He mentions Pesach, matzah and maror as being the requirements for
> fulfilling the obligation. While charoset is mentioned (thanks, Henry),
> when did they start putting it on the Seder plate?
He mentions that one one _must_ "describe" those three items as a
_minimum_ in order to observe the commandment "V'higadata l'vincha"
- and you shall tell your child. There are obviously _many_ other
things happening at the seder. The "4 Questions", which pre-date
Raban Gamliel, would need at least _4_ answers so how can Raban
Gamliel say 3 are enough? The answer is as I said, these three are
the _basic minimum_ things which _must_ be explained.
> Also, my Jerusalem 3000 Seder plate
What's that?
> has a space for horseradish *and* maror, what am I supposed to make
> of that?
That the current custom, based on the Arizal, is to place _two_ types
of marror on the seder plate, one to eat by itself, and one in
Hillel's "sandwich".
> And when did the egg make its appearance?
At the same time the shankbone made it's appearence. After the
destruction of the Temple, we no longer put the roasted Paschal Lamb
on the table nor the cooked/roasted Chagiga Offering. The shankbone
and egg are reminders of those two sacrifices.
>> > Politicizing our practices is certain to be devisive and likely
>> >> to polarize the community upon political and social lines.
>> >
>> > What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water on the
>> > table in honour of Miriam?
>>
>> Huh?
>
> Miriam, you know, Moshe's sister, the prophetess ... the one who
> had a well follow her through the desert ... ring any bells? 8-)
Sorry, my bells are all rusted from the water on the table. :-)
>> >> A few years ago our community Seder included a "modern" magillah which ended
>> >> with the song "Down by the Riverside." Some of our people were a bit shocked
>> >> when I pointed out that the reason the singer of the song is "gonna put on
>> >> my long white robe, down by the riverside" is to be baptized and become a
>> >> Xtian... Some things are better left to tradition.
>> >
>> > That's just ignorance. You can accuse Dr. Heschel of a lot of things,
>> > but not of that.
>>
>> Then she's much worse. She _knows_ and chooses to rebel.
>
> She is the daughter of Rabbi Heschel. She definitely knows. Her choice
> to rebel is a considered one, I'm sure.
I'm sure.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Henry Goodman wrote:
>> Do American feminists really put an orange on their Seder plates?
>> I thought it was just a joke.
>
> Not just feminists. You can even buy Seder plates with a space
> for it, at mainstream Judaica shops.
Are these space _labeled_ "Orange"? Or do some use one of the six
places on the plate for an orange and omit a different symbol?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>>Hadass asked:
>
>> > > What do you think of the practice of putting a cup of water
>> > > on the table in honour of Miriam?
>> >
>> > Huh?
>>
>> Miriam, you know, Moshe's sister, the prophetess ... the one who
>> had a well follow her through the desert ... ring any bells? 8-)
>>
> I think his "Huh?" was about the cup of water, not about Miriam.
> I've never encountered this custom, either.
Thank you Eliyahu, you got it in one. I think Hadass got it too,
but couldn't resist the dig. That's why I didn't answer her.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Micha Berger wrote:
It's nice watching Micha and Hadass go at it. I enjoy them both
so I can root for the team at bat in _both_ halves of the inning.
snip
>> :> : Do you think that bringing women into the Seder is grafting new ideas
>> :> : into it? Were we not redeemed from Egypt?
>>
>> :> Women must participate in the seder, regardless of what was done in the
>> :> past.
>>
>> : An innovation! Horrors!
>>
>> : To cast what you wrote into a translation of the words the Talmud
>> :> uses: they too were in the same miracle. Women are equally obligated.
>>
>> : Glad to hear it.
>>
>> Then you should have deleted "An innovation! Horrors!" It's not an
>> innovation. The opposite: the lack of participation, if real, was a bad
>> innovation that thankfully is fading away.
>
> SDNWOTN.
True. But don't that stop you from using it. :-)
>> By bad innovation I mean two things: it's unfair for no redeeming purpose;
>> it detracts from the message the Torah wants the ritual to impart because
>> it reduces the audience.
>
> Why should anyone have cared whether women heard the story or not? They
> probably didn't understand the Hebrew anyway, since nobody bothered to
> teach it to them.
Hadass, are you not aware that the seder is to be translated into the
language spoken by the group? One of my _signs_ of becoming Israeli
was when I conducted the Seder in Hebrew and didn't even _bother_ to
translate into English. There was a bit of sadness involved. During
my mother's lifetime I _always_ had to translate into English.
snip
Bob Halpern
a male dominant society run by women." Our seder plate has an orange on
it.
Polar
>Polar <sme...@mindspring.com> writes:
>> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>'m happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
>>>none depicted single women...? <grin>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> "Marry off". What a revolting phrase.
>
>Polar, you have a knack for misreading _everything_ according to your
>bias.
Which clearly differentiates me, in your view,
from the "God said so" crowd [1]
[1] which consistently misinterprets my comments from inside
*their* frame of references.
But of course they are utterly without bias...
I'm still reeling about your answer to Anja about kashrut.
You never saw my further elucidation of why I wanted
her to have a frame of reference, should she explore further,
perhaps become confused; worse yet, perhaps becomne
alienated.
You and your "crowd" operate like a light switch -
you reflexively respond to stimuli without ever thinking
through the possible b.g. to a comment. Where is your
"God"-given power of thought and reason?
Now
>you take an ancient and respected expression, which Jewish parents
>pray for in all ages, and turn it on it's
its
head. Pity.
>
>> Like putting them out on the curb in the hope that
>> the trash truck will take them off your hands.
>
>You really have an *interesting* imagination. <sigh>
I have worked in language fields all my life, and am
acutely aware of the subtext in even "hallowed"
(by your criteria) expressions.
>
>BTW, how many children have _you_ married off?
I don't "marry off" children. What a revolting expression.
I rejoice when they find good marriage partners. They
are not OFF - they are still part of my life.
--
Polar
Joel Rosenberg
"Bob Halpern" <B...@CPUperform.com> wrote in message
news:3AE44D3F...@CPUperform.com...
> I was once quoted in our Shule's newsletter with the comment "I live in
> a male dominant society run by women." Our seder plate has an orange on
> it.
Okay, if you don't ask you won't learn: what is the meaning of the orange,
and why is it a girl thing?
Micha Berger
: I was once quoted in our Shule's newsletter with the comment "I live in
: a male dominant society run by women." Our seder plate has an orange on
: it.
"The man is the head of the family. The woman... she's the neck. The neck
moves the head."
-mi
Hadass Eviatar
>
> On 20 Apr 2001 17:01:54 GMT, Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> wrote:
> :> But in any case, it's not whether or not you can connect it with some
> :> theme in the seder, it's whether or not you are trying to make the
> :> seder, or part of the seder, into being about something other than
> :> what a seder is for.
>
> : I understand that argument entirely. In principle I rather agree.
>
> So, we got quite a distance in this discussion.
We always do. Why do you think I read SCJM? 8-)
<snip stuff we agree on>
> What I was trying to say, though, is that since the haggadah itself brings
> in the idea of others who try to terminate the Jewish people, I can see
> someone arguing that the matzah of freedom or the 4 missing sons (the MIAs)
> are within the seder's original theme.
What about all the missing daughters? 8-)
>
> In order to apply the same argument to women's rights, you would have to
> say that unequal treatment in general is the theme of the seder. Not
> slavery, not Jewish survival, not the fact that the covenant guarantees
> that survival. It shifts the attention from G-d and the Jews to human
> liberating human.
I'm not sure it is human liberating human, any more than the 6 day war
was purely a human triumph. I believe that G-d smiles on his daughters
who raise their voices in His praise, just like Miriam did on the shores
of the Sea of Reeds ...
Hadass Eviatar
>
> It's a very long subject. This summary will be even shorter than the
> articles at the URL I posted.
I just wanted to thank you yet again, Micha, for providing us with these
wonderful words of Torah. Now I know why I sit at my computer at
midnight when I should be in bed 8-).
Kol tuv, Hadass
--
Hadass Eviatar
Winnipeg, Canada
http://www.superhwy.net/~eviatar
Hadass Eviatar
>
> Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> writes:
> > Micha Berger wrote:
>
> It's nice watching Micha and Hadass go at it. I enjoy them both
> so I can root for the team at bat in _both_ halves of the inning.
Your sports metaphors always confuse me, Moshe, but I think I understand
this one 8-). Thanks for the compliment, I always enjoy discussing with
Micha, because he teaches me without making me feel like an idiot.
> Hadass, are you not aware that the seder is to be translated into the
> language spoken by the group? One of my _signs_ of becoming Israeli
> was when I conducted the Seder in Hebrew and didn't even _bother_ to
> translate into English. There was a bit of sadness involved. During
> my mother's lifetime I _always_ had to translate into English.
You are right. One of the _signs_ of my becoming a Diaspora Jew is that
I did not feel too uncomfortable at being at a Seder conducted almost
entirely in English (except for the brachot and the songs).
I did have to laugh at the bowdlerized translations, though, and
couldn't resist filling in the blanks. Why the heck couldn't they have
translated what was actually there, breasts and nakedness and all? There
was a reason the Rabbis put it there! (Aside from keeping everybody
awake, that is).
Hadass Eviatar
>
> Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> writes:
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> >> Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> writes:
> >> > Eliyahu wrote:
> >> >
> >> > <snip comments about the orange on the Seder plate>
>
> There seems to be much "feminism" being discussed here. To follow
> Josh's advice, I'll try not to comment on something I know very
> little (nothing?) about. I _will_ try to answer direct questions
> about Jewish ritual and practice, to the best of my inadequate
> ability.
Fair enough.
>
> >> >> Regardless of the intent and the implied meaning, I find
> >> >> disturbing the trend toward revamping and changing our rituals
> >> >> and symbols in order to promote social changes and ideology.
> >> >
> >> > It's a long and honourable tradition ... why do you put a
> >> > Hannukiah in the window?
> >>
> >> On the night of Pesach!!??
> >
> > Being cute, are we, Moshe? 8-)
>
> Yes. Glad you appreciated the humor.
I generally do. Glad you appreciate mine.
>
> > Are you suggesting that the Hannukiah was *not* instituted by the
> > Sages to promote social changes and ideology?
>
> Whew is that a loaded question. Why not just say that the Hannukiah
> was "instituted" (I would prefer "ordained") to "remember the
> miracle".
>
> Now ask me a hard one. ;-)
Well, one *could* consider the power struggle between the Hasmonean
dynasty and the rabbis ... after, of course, as Lisa reminds us yearly,
the nasty civil war between the assimilated Jews and the "fanatics". It
isn't, IMHO, always entirely clear which miracle we are commemorating
8-).
<snip explanation of Rabban Gamliel - thanks>
>
> > Also, my Jerusalem 3000 Seder plate
>
> What's that?
A set of rather beautiful Judaica articles, emblazoned with scenes of
Jerusalem, much gold leaf, etc., to commemorate the 3000th anniversary
of Jerusalem. Needless to say, my husband bought it.
>
> > has a space for horseradish *and* maror, what am I supposed to make
> > of that?
>
> That the current custom, based on the Arizal, is to place _two_ types
> of marror on the seder plate, one to eat by itself, and one in
> Hillel's "sandwich".
But neither of them comes off the Seder plate, at least not in any Seder
I have been to.
> > Miriam, you know, Moshe's sister, the prophetess ... the one who
> > had a well follow her through the desert ... ring any bells? 8-)
>
> Sorry, my bells are all rusted from the water on the table. :-)
Have a timbrel instead.
8-)
Hadass Eviatar
>
> Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> writes:
> > Henry Goodman wrote:
> >> Do American feminists really put an orange on their Seder plates?
> >> I thought it was just a joke.
> >
> > Not just feminists. You can even buy Seder plates with a space
> > for it, at mainstream Judaica shops.
>
> Are these space _labeled_ "Orange"? Or do some use one of the six
> places on the plate for an orange and omit a different symbol?
I haven't seen them, myself, but it is my understanding (you should ask
Judith, Moshe) that they actually have a space labeled "Orange". For my
own Seder plate, of course I don't omit any of the other symbols
(although I do use a beet instead of a shankbone, but that is
Talmudically justified). I put the orange in the middle, on top of the
Jerusalem 3000 logo. Saves me having to look at that, too.
Hadass Eviatar
> >From: MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
> >Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
> >case not eat an egg?
>
> In that case, it's "l'zecher gova ha'mayim b'yam suf" :-) :-) :-)
> [sorry: I can't translate]
Would you like me to? (Since I inadvertantly neglected to respond to
your private e-mail making the same joke 8-)).
Eliyahu
> BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL wrote:
> > >From: MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
> > >Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
> > >case not eat an egg?
> >
> > In that case, it's "l'zecher gova ha'mayim b'yam suf" :-) :-) :-)
> > [sorry: I can't translate]
>
> Would you like me to? (Since I inadvertantly neglected to respond to
> your private e-mail making the same joke 8-)).
>
ability. I have a difficult enough time expressing myself clearly in
English...
--
Eliyahu Rooff
www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm
RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm
Hadass Eviatar
Go back up the thread. There is a story, attributed to Susannah Heschel
(but according to a quote from her posted above, it is a complete
twisting of her words - but no matter, it obviously fulfils a need among
Jews). The story says that she was talking about the position of women
in the synagogue somewhere in Florida, and that a man jumped up and
shouted that a woman on the bimah is like bread on the Seder plate. She
is supposed to have replied that a woman on the bimah is more like an
orange on the Seder plate - not forbidden, like bread, but new and
different and full of exciting new possibilities.
I like that story so much that I don't care that she never said that and
in fact repudiated the story because she had meant the orange to signify
gay and lesbian liberation. That story should have happened to somebody.
Isn't that what true Midrash is all about? 8-)
Bob Halpern
belongs on the bema like an orange on the seder plate. A new tradition
was born. It symbolizes the freedom of women.
Steven Goldfarb
>A woman rabbi was giving a speech and an "orthodox" heckler said a woman
>belongs on the bema like an orange on the seder plate. A new tradition
>was born. It symbolizes the freedom of women.
That's a nice story, but not true. As quoted here by someone reliable (I
forget hwo)who quoted Ms Heschel herself, the real story is a lot more
banal and self-indulgent.
Some women (at Oberlin, wasn't it?) decided to have a hostile ant-seder,
in which they included bread on the seder plate to symbolize their belief
that lesbians belong within Judaism just as bread belongs on the seder
plate, that is, not at all. According to the story, much like the Wicked
Son they excluded themselves -- the story brought no evidence that any
outside person actually attempted to exclude them, although I don't doubt
that that's possible.
Ms Heschel heard about this, or actually met these women I don't recall,
and appreciated the concept but thought bread was too hostile so she
substituted an orange.
It was apparently entirely internally-derived, not driven from some
outside "heckler" or a reaction to any actual threat or challenge.
Sorta takes the wind out of it a bit, imho.
--sg
--
---------------------------------------
Steve Goldfarb Eppur si muove
s...@stevegoldfarb.com (and still, it moves)
http://stevegoldfarb.com/ - Galileo
Joel Rosenberg
> Joel Rosenberg wrote:
> >
> > "Bob Halpern" <B...@CPUperform.com> wrote in message
> > news:3AE44D3F...@CPUperform.com...
> > > I was once quoted in our Shule's newsletter with the comment "I live
in
> > > a male dominant society run by women." Our seder plate has an orange
on
> > > it.
> >
> > Okay, if you don't ask you won't learn: what is the meaning of the
orange,
> > and why is it a girl thing?
>
> Go back up the thread. There is a story, attributed to Susannah Heschel
> (but according to a quote from her posted above, it is a complete
> twisting of her words - but no matter, it obviously fulfils a need among
> Jews). The story says that she was talking about the position of women
> in the synagogue somewhere in Florida, and that a man jumped up and
> shouted that a woman on the bimah is like bread on the Seder plate. She
> is supposed to have replied that a woman on the bimah is more like an
> orange on the Seder plate - not forbidden, like bread, but new and
> different and full of exciting new possibilities.
>
> I like that story so much that I don't care that she never said that and
> in fact repudiated the story because she had meant the orange to signify
> gay and lesbian liberation. That story should have happened to somebody.
> Isn't that what true Midrash is all about? 8-)
It's a cool story, and it sounds very much like her -- she was, many years
ago, briefly my Sunday School teacher.
wba...@panix.com
: Kol tuv, Hadass
Two comments here. When we do the seder, I always read part of the Hallel
in English, interupting our singing to do so. This ws my mother's
favorite so I read it in her memory and honor and weep a bit.
My late Father in Law, who was totally non-religious, but had had a cheder
education in Russia , coult still translate fromt the Chumash and the
Haggada. When Jon started learning Cumash, he asked him " do you mean
like this, and opened the book, reading "And then a Czar arose in Egypt,
who didn't know Joseph." Also, continuing in his tradition, you should
hear Jon reading translation to all our kiruv guests. He sdoes a lovely
free form translation. These differences between the traclation and the
oiginal often become part of our discussion during the service and dinner.
Somehow, as a young girl in my parents home, I always seemed to get that
bare breasts passage to read in the round table readings. Always
embarassed my no end. Anyone interested in the source of that text go to
Ezekiel Chapter 16. It's an eye opener you never read in day school!
Wendy Baker
Joel Rosenberg
"Steven Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9c42bf$be$1...@panix6.panix.com...
> In <3AE5529A...@CPUperform.com> Bob Halpern <B...@CPUperform.com>
writes:
>
> >A woman rabbi was giving a speech and an "orthodox" heckler said a woman
> >belongs on the bema like an orange on the seder plate. A new tradition
> >was born. It symbolizes the freedom of women.
>
> That's a nice story, but not true. As quoted here by someone reliable (I
> forget hwo)who quoted Ms Heschel herself, the real story is a lot more
> banal and self-indulgent.
>
> Some women (at Oberlin, wasn't it?) decided to have a hostile ant-seder,
> in which they included bread on the seder plate to symbolize their belief
> that lesbians belong within Judaism just as bread belongs on the seder
> plate, that is, not at all. According to the story, much like the Wicked
> Son they excluded themselves -- the story brought no evidence that any
> outside person actually attempted to exclude them, although I don't doubt
> that that's possible.
>
> Ms Heschel heard about this, or actually met these women I don't recall,
> and appreciated the concept but thought bread was too hostile so she
> substituted an orange.
>
> It was apparently entirely internally-derived, not driven from some
> outside "heckler" or a reaction to any actual threat or challenge.
>
> Sorta takes the wind out of it a bit, imho.
I dunno. There's something kinda neat about somebody gay or gay-friendly
getting a *fruit* to be a symbol of acceptance of gay/lesbian folks, sort of
like the way that gays/lesbians have adopted/reclaimed/claimed/whatever the
word "queer."
Harry Weiss
> "Hadass Eviatar" <hevi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3AE50C65...@home.com...
>> BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL wrote:
>> > >From: MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
>> > >Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
>> > >case not eat an egg?
>> >
>> > In that case, it's "l'zecher gova ha'mayim b'yam suf" :-) :-) :-)
>> > [sorry: I can't translate]
>>
>> Would you like me to? (Since I inadvertantly neglected to respond to
>> your private e-mail making the same joke 8-)).
>>
> It'd be nice if one of you would... Some of us have little linguistic
> ability. I have a difficult enough time expressing myself clearly in
> English...
I'm not one of them , literally - in rememberance of the height of the
water in the Re(e)d Sea.
Read into to it what you wish :-)
> --
> Eliyahu Rooff
> www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm
> RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Remember to Count the Omer
BAC...@vms.huji.ac.il
>From: Hadass Eviatar <hevi...@home.com>
>Subject:Re: For further Passover discussion
>Date: 24 Apr 2001 05:17:15 GMT
>Message-ID:<3AE50C65...@home.com>
>BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL wrote:
>> >From: MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
>> >Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
>> >case not eat an egg?
>>
>> In that case, it's "l'zecher gova ha'mayim b'yam suf" :-) :-) :-)
>> [sorry: I can't translate]
>
>Would you like me to? (Since I inadvertantly neglected to respond to
>your private e-mail making the same joke 8-)).
You've *got* to be joking :-) I wrote "I can't translate"
because the net censors would be displeased.
In any case, the joke would lose in translation into English.
Josh
meirm...@erols.com
Eviatar <hevi...@home.com> posted:
>You are right. One of the _signs_ of my becoming a Diaspora Jew is that
>I did not feel too uncomfortable at being at a Seder conducted almost
>entirely in English (except for the brachot and the songs).
>
>I did have to laugh at the bowdlerized translations, though, and
>couldn't resist filling in the blanks. Why the heck couldn't they have
>translated what was actually there, breasts and nakedness and all? There
At my second seder this year, the guy reading that paragraph had a
different year's edition of the hagada as everyone else and didn't
know what they left out when he read it. But people laughed.
Actually it left out breast and included naked in the following
phrase. Go figure.
>was a reason the Rabbis put it there! (Aside from keeping everybody
>awake, that is).
>
>
>Kol tuv, Hadass
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
Hadass Eviatar
>
> "Hadass Eviatar" <hevi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3AE50C65...@home.com...
> > BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL wrote:
> > > >From: MA...@WEIZMANN.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni)
> > > >Unless of course when the Seder is on Friday night. Does one in that
> > > >case not eat an egg?
> > >
> > > In that case, it's "l'zecher gova ha'mayim b'yam suf" :-) :-) :-)
> > > [sorry: I can't translate]
> >
> > Would you like me to? (Since I inadvertantly neglected to respond to
> > your private e-mail making the same joke 8-)).
> >
> It'd be nice if one of you would... Some of us have little linguistic
> ability. I have a difficult enough time expressing myself clearly in
> English...
Literally, Josh wrote "in memory of the height of the water in the Sea
of Reeds". Think of egg-shaped organs in contact with sea water <grin>.
meirm...@erols.com
<sme...@mindspring.com> posted:
>On 23 Apr 2001 08:26:25 GMT, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>>Polar <sme...@mindspring.com> writes:
>>> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>'m happy to hear that they were able to marry off every woman, you said
>>>>none depicted single women...? <grin>
>>>
>>> "Marry off". What a revolting phrase.
>>
>>Polar, you have a knack for misreading _everything_ according to your
>>bias.
>
>Which clearly differentiates me, in your view,
>from the "God said so" crowd [1]
>
>[1] which consistently misinterprets my comments from inside
>*their* frame of references.
>
So you didn't mean that "marry off" was a bad phrase. You used
"revolting" in its nice meaning.
Wow, I feel like I've finally escaped from my limiting frame of
reference.
>But of course they are utterly without bias...
>
Thank you for showing me the light.
>
> I'm still reeling about your answer to Anja about kashrut.
>
>You never saw my further elucidation of why I wanted
>her to have a frame of reference, should she explore further,
>perhaps become confused; worse yet, perhaps becomne
>alienated.
>
>You and your "crowd" operate like a light switch -
>you reflexively respond to stimuli without ever thinking
>through the possible b.g. to a comment. Where is your
>"God"-given power of thought and reason?
Where is your God-given power of niceness? Gemilut chassidim?
> Now
>>you take an ancient and respected expression, which Jewish parents
>>pray for in all ages, and turn it on it's
> head. Pity.
>>
>>> Like putting them out on the curb in the hope that
>>> the trash truck will take them off your hands.
>>You really have an *interesting* imagination. <sigh>
>
>I have worked in language fields all my life, and am
>acutely aware of the subtext in even "hallowed"
>(by your criteria) expressions.
I think you are too self-confident here. You reflexively respond to
little things an O says.
>>BTW, how many children have _you_ married off?
>
>I don't "marry off" children. What a revolting expression.
But you mean that in the nicest way, and it was only our bias that
made us thing otherwise. I'm glad I got that straight.
>I rejoice when they find good marriage partners. They
>are not OFF - they are still part of my life.
Glad to hear it. With Moshe, when they're gone, he changes his phone
number. Your style is much better. And it's because you use better
words. OFF, what a word. It's something the Taliban would say.
Polar
[...]
>I think you are too self-confident here. You reflexively respond to
>little things an O says.
[...]
OY!
...glass houses...!!!
--
Polar
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
Discussion of the phrase "Marrying Off" snipped
>>Now you take an ancient and respected expression, which Jewish
>>parents pray for in all ages, and turn it on it's
>>head. Pity.
>>
>>> Like putting them out on the curb in the hope that
>>> the trash truck will take them off your hands.
>>
>>You really have an *interesting* imagination. <sigh>
>
> I have worked in language fields all my life, and am
> acutely aware of the subtext in even "hallowed"
> (by your criteria) expressions.
Sorry, I also _try_ to be precise with my words. I said "ancient
and respected". _You_ changed that to "hallowed".
>>BTW, how many children have _you_ married off?
>
> I don't "marry off" children. What a revolting expression.
I see you did n't answer.
> I rejoice when they find good marriage partners. They
> are not OFF - they are still part of my life.
I'm glad to hear that. Why do you think tha someone who "marries off"
hir children will suddenly find them _not_ "part of their life"?
I'm thinking of Pesach where one married daughter stayed with us the
whole week. A second was with us for the first days. My married son
came for the last days and we all got together for the annual visit
to the Jerusalem Zoo. The only married child who was not with us
during Pesach was with her father-in-law. She's always there since
he is a widower and she "makes Pesach" for him. I hope you won't find
anything wrong with the expression "make Pesach", but I'm not taking
any bets.
meirm...@erols.com
<sme...@mindspring.com> posted:
Oy!
Glass houses...!!!
You're as reflexive as anyone you criticize. Maybe more.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Most everything has been discussed already. I'll answer one point.
>> > has a space for horseradish *and* maror, what am I supposed to make
>> > of that?
>>
>> That the current custom, based on the Arizal, is to place _two_ types
>> of marror on the seder plate, one to eat by itself, and one in
>> Hillel's "sandwich".
>
> But neither of them comes off the Seder plate, at least not in any
> Seder I have been to.
I make it a point to take some from the plate. Same with the matzohs.
_Some_ comes from the three under the plate. But since, thank G-d, we
have many participants in our seder we need _much_ more morror and
matzo than can fit.