Differences between Ashkenazim and Sepharadim?

[Alex Fisher]

(Tried posting earlier, but no acknowledgement email, so re-posting
from a different newsreader.)

Hi All.

I don't normally post much here, I'm too busy reading and learning from 
everyone :)

Background to my question: I've been interested in Judaism for around
10 or more years, and am seriously contemplating conversion. I've
started trying to learn Biblical Hebrew as well.

I live in Brisbane, Queensland Australia. The Jewish community is quite 
small here, only around a few thousand. We have two O synagogues, and
about 3 Progressive ones (Progressive here encompasses both
Conservative and Reform streams).

They all, however, follow the Ashkenzi minhagim, and that is a minor 
problem. I'm well aware that there are differences in a number of
areas, and before I make any commitment I feel I really need to learn
more about those differences.

While I could perhaps move to either Sydney or Melbourne, where there
are several Sephardi communities, that is not really an option at this
time (financial considerations are the primary problem).

I would really welcome information on the differences, and I'd invite
anyone who feels they would prefer to answer off-list to email me
directly. Although I am of the opinion that HaShem is indeed leading me
to convert, I feel that I cannot commit until I have more information
on these differences.

Thanking everyone in advance,

Alex

--
Alex Fisher

[Alex Fisher]

--
Alex

[Beach Runner]

The answer is not that complex. When the Jews were expelled from the land
of Israel some stayed in Arab lands, including Spain. People from those
tradition are Sephardic.

The Jews that went to Eastern Europe became Ashkanazi.

They pronounce vowells differently, have slightly different intrepetations
of some laws, like Kosher for Pesach Sephadim eat rice.

It really is something, since before there was a religion of Islam, Jews lived
throughout the Middle East and Northern Africa. When Israel was created, most of the Jews living in Arab lands were expelled or even killed.

[mm]

I don't think you have a real problem. Wrt law, differences are not
that numerous, they're small and not about basics, just details and
you're a long way from even knowing the basic law from which the small
variations differ.

WRT minhagim, customs, AIUI, someone in your shoes gets to pick whether
he wants to be Ashkenazic or Sephardic or Mizrachi, or Italian. Well
you might have to discuss Italian with the Italians. There's nothing
wrong with being Ashkenazic. Some of my best friends are. Including my
parents and my brother. But if you have some reason to want to
follow Sephardic tradition, you might be able to go over occasionally
with the rabbi or someone knowledgable so you could keep straight any
custom that they did that Sephardim don't do. (Well it's hard to know
what other people don't do, you can unlearn this stuff later if you
really want. If you have some customs of another group, it won't hurt
you.)


WRT Hebrew pronunciation, if I were in your shoes I would learn Israeli
pronunciation. It's a lot more like Sephardic (and has maybe replaced
Sephardic except in the remaining communities in Morocco etc., and I
guess France, etc. ) than it is like Ashkenazic Hebrew pronunciation,
but plenty of Ashkenazic Jews uses Israeli pronunciation all the time,
including I think almost all Modern Orthodox.

Chassidim and some or many Yeshivish Jews use Ashkenazic for prayer and
Sephardic when talking to Israelis, but that's a complication you don't
need , and have no real reason to take on.

Well, the only reason might be is if you get yourself a Hebrew teacher
from the community and he uses only Ashkenazic pronunciation, but though
I've never been to Brisbane, that seems super unlikely.

I certainly woldn't move to another city because of this distinction,
even if money were not involved.

When you say contemplating conversion, I assume you mean Orthodox
conversion. I'm not sure what it means to have a "non-Orthodox
conversion". OTOH, as I'm sure you know, you don't have to be a Jew
to go to heaven, etc.

>Thanking everyone in advance,
>
>Alex

--

Meir

[Alex Fisher]

Not really the halakot I'm concerned about. From what I've learned so
far, there are really very few significant differences.

>
> WRT minhagim, customs, AIUI, someone in your shoes gets to pick
> whether he wants to be Ashkenazic or Sephardic or Mizrachi, or
> Italian. Well you might have to discuss Italian with the Italians.
> There's nothing wrong with being Ashkenazic. Some of my best friends
> are. Including my parents and my brother. But if you have some
> reason to want to follow Sephardic tradition, you might be able to
> go over occasionally with the rabbi or someone knowledgable so you

One of the reasons (not a real biggie however) is cuisine. While my
tastes in food are quite eclectic, I do have a predilection to
"Mediterranean" style cooking. I've not tried some of the traditional
Ashkenazi foods, but since I quite like pickled herring products (such
as matjes fillets and rollmops), not to mention bortsch and blinis,
that aspect is not at al important.

OTOH, I like to follow a primarily vegetarian diet, so at Pesach the
question of kitinyot becomes important, since pulses and legumes are a
major part of that dietary regime.

> could keep straight any custom that they did that Sephardim don't
> do. (Well it's hard to know what other people don't do, you can
> unlearn this stuff later if you really want. If you have some
> customs of another group, it won't hurt you.)
>
>
> WRT Hebrew pronunciation, if I were in your shoes I would learn
> Israeli pronunciation. It's a lot more like Sephardic (and has

Initially, I learned the "Tiberian" pronunciations. However, there is
no-one here in Brisbane to teach me Biblical Hebrew, so I've been doing
an online course through eTeacher who provide the online course for the
Hebrew University in Jerusalem). All their teachers are based in
Israel, so I'm (by default) learning the Israeli pronunciations. Only
difference really is that I still try to make a distinction between how
I pronounce 'alef and 'ayin (I've studied some linguistics and
phonology, so I tend to be a little pedantic with pronunciations). But
even so, I've noticed some marked differences in pronunciations, for
example the teacher I have for level B pronounces /het/ quite
differently from the teacher I had for level A.

> maybe replaced Sephardic except in the remaining communities in
> Morocco etc., and I guess France, etc. ) than it is like Ashkenazic
> Hebrew pronunciation, but plenty of Ashkenazic Jews uses Israeli
> pronunciation all the time, including I think almost all Modern
> Orthodox.
>
> Chassidim and some or many Yeshivish Jews use Ashkenazic for prayer
> and Sephardic when talking to Israelis, but that's a complication you
> don't need , and have no real reason to take on.

I'll settle for the pronunciations I'm learning online.

>
> Well, the only reason might be is if you get yourself a Hebrew teacher
> from the community and he uses only Ashkenazic pronunciation, but
> though I've never been to Brisbane, that seems super unlikely.

As I mentioned above, there are no Hebrew teachers in Brisbane. Chabad
occasionally runs a short course in reading Hebrew (so people can at
lest read the siddur), but no grammar etc.

>
> I certainly woldn't move to another city because of this distinction,
> even if money were not involved.

I'd have to move if I started the conversion process, because there is
no Jewish community within 3 miles of my current location. If I have to
move suburbs, I may as well move to another city.

>
> When you say contemplating conversion, I assume you mean Orthodox

Yes, your assumption is 100% correct. While the Progressives might make
it easier, their way doesn't really resonate with me.

> conversion. I'm not sure what it means to have a "non-Orthodox
> conversion". OTOH, as I'm sure you know, you don't have to be a Jew
> to go to heaven, etc.

Absolutely. As things stand, I'm confident that I'll have a place in the
world to come. That 9is not why I'm looking at converting, in fact it's
quite irrelevant. Over the years, I've developed a belief system which
I thought was unique. However, when I started learning about Judaism I
discovered to my surprise that most of the attitudes I'd developed were
there in black and white so to speak, in Jewish belief. And I've also
been getting an increasingly strong impression that HaShem wants me to
take that step (not to the point of "hearing" him speaking, just
little things which add up to one big thing). Fortunately, I have very
few Christian friends (only one really), so I won't have to put up with
them trying to stop me :)

I've got phone numbers for two rabbis here (one Chabad, the other MO),
and a contact for the shul that I feel most comfortable at. I'll
probably contact them in the next few months.

>
> >Thanking everyone in advance,
> >
> >Alex
>
> --
>
> Meir

Thank you very much for your time, Meir.


--
Alex Fisher

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:35:50 AM UTC+3, Alex Fisher wrote:
Excuse me if i had to giggle when i read this REASON , many of the Askenazic families in Israel Eat Humus, kebab and many Other Mediterranean foods. If you choose to follow one tradition IT DOES NOT FORBID you to eat the Other foods or herbs as well !!!!
There are many Israeli Vegetarians and Vegans and they all do well!!!!
mirjam

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:21:07 AM UTC-4, mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

> Excuse me if i had to giggle when i read this REASON,
> many of the Askenazic families in Israel Eat Humus,
> kebab and many Other Mediterranean foods. If you choose
> to follow one tradition IT DOES NOT FORBID you to eat
> the Other foods or herbs as well !!!!

I think the poster was referring to eating those foods on Pesach. When Ashkanasic Jews ARE forbidden to eat them. But I agree that it is not a reason to choose to adopt the Sapharadic customes. Even the biggest lover of humus and other Mediterranean foods can easily survive for one week on matza, eggs and potatoes. And then the hummus will seem even tastier the following week.

GEK

[W. Baker]

Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote:

: On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:21:07 AM UTC-4, mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

: > Excuse me if i had to giggle when i read this REASON,
: > many of the Askenazic families in Israel Eat Humus,
: > kebab and many Other Mediterranean foods. If you choose
: > to follow one tradition IT DOES NOT FORBID you to eat
: > the Other foods or herbs as well !!!!

: I think the poster was referring to eating those foods on Pesach. When Ashkanasic Jews ARE forbidden to eat them. But I agree that it is not a reason to choose to adopt the Sapharadic customes. Even the biggest lover of humus and other Mediterranean foods can easily survive for one week on matza, eggs and potatoes. And then the hummus will seem even tastier the following week.

: GEK

Don't forget quinoa, which, currently, for most Ashkenazim is considered
Kosher for Pesach. This has made a difference for many of my
vegetarianfriends.

Wendy

[Alex Fisher]

On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 16:01:06 +0000 (UTC)
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

> Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> : On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:21:07 AM UTC-4, mir...@actcom.co.il
> : wrote:
>
> : > Excuse me if i had to giggle when i read this REASON,
> : > many of the Askenazic families in Israel Eat Humus,
> : > kebab and many Other Mediterranean foods. If you choose
> : > to follow one tradition IT DOES NOT FORBID you to eat
> : > the Other foods or herbs as well !!!!
>
> : I think the poster was referring to eating those foods on Pesach.
> : When Ashkanasic Jews ARE forbidden to eat them. But I agree that it
> : is not a reason to choose to adopt the Sapharadic customes. Even
> : the biggest lover of humus and other Mediterranean foods can easily
> : survive for one week on matza, eggs and potatoes. And then the
> : hummus will seem even tastier the following week.

Love my homos! sometimes make my own from scratch.

>
> : GEK
>
>
> Don't forget quinoa, which, currently, for most Ashkenazim is
> considered Kosher for Pesach. This has made a difference for many of
> my vegetarianfriends.
>
> Wendy

Have not yet tried quinoa. With all the hype surrounding it, touting it
as a "super" food, I've turned off it for now. Later, when all that
dies down and some other obscure food becomes the "in thing", maybe
then I'll try it.

--
Alex Fisher

[Alex Fisher]

On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:22:52 +0000 (UTC)
mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:35:50 AM UTC+3, Alex Fisher wrote:
> Excuse me if i had to giggle when i read this REASON , many of the

Glad I could raise a giggle from you :)

> Askenazic families in Israel Eat Humus, kebab and many Other
> Mediterranean foods. If you choose to follow one tradition IT DOES

As I think i mentioned, it isn't a major thing. It's just one very
minor factor that I do need to consider. As Giorges said in his reply,
it's only in relation to the question of KLP that is might possibly
matter.

> NOT FORBID you to eat the Other foods or herbs as well !!!! There are
> many Israeli Vegetarians and Vegans and they all do well!!!! mirjam

I know several from Facebook here in Australia, actually

> > One of the reasons (not a real biggie however) is cuisine. While my
> > tastes in food are quite eclectic, I do have a predilection to
> > "Mediterranean" style cooking. I've not tried some of the
> > traditional Ashkenazi foods, but since I quite like pickled herring
> > products (such as matjes fillets and rollmops), not to mention
> > bortsch and blinis, that aspect is not at al important.
> >
> > OTOH, I like to follow a primarily vegetarian diet, so at Pesach the
> > question of kitinyot becomes important, since pulses and legumes
> > are a major part of that dietary regime.
> >

[snipped]
--
Alex Fisher

[mm]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 00:51:18 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher
<peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:

>On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:22:52 +0000 (UTC)
>mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
>
>> There are
>> many Israeli Vegetarians and Vegans and they all do well!!!! mirjam

My niece took us to two vegan restaurants when I was in NYC for her
graduation. The food was delicious....

>
>I know several from Facebook here in Australia, actually

if you've never experienced food before.


http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/buddha-bodai/menu
http://www.chinatownvegetarian.com/
They have a menu page too.
http://www.chinatownvegetarian.com/menu.html
http://www.yelp.com/biz/buddha-bodai-new-york
--

Meir

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 8:49:24 PM UTC-4, Alex Fisher wrote:
>
> Love my homos! sometimes make my own from scratch.

You make homos? I thought the professors say that they are born that way.

GEK

[mm]

I knew he gave a straight line. I just couldn't figure out the punch
line.

--

Meir

[Alex Fisher]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 01:33:48 +0000 (UTC)

Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Oops! Typo there, should be homMos (that's the spelling I first learned
from an Armenian friend (who was actually born in Lebanon)).

--
Alex Fisher

[Patricia Heil]

Another site stuffed with educational info tho' not strictly on Sephardim, is the Chabad website. Audio and video lessons on Chumash, Mishnah; English translation of Mishneh Torah. If you decide to take any kind of a plunge this page has the addie of the Brisbane Chabad house.
http://www.chabad.org/centers/default_cdo/aid/118204/jewish/Chabad-Brisbane.htm

[Patricia Heil]

See mechon-mamre.org. They have a section that discusses the differences. They also have primary documents and mp3s reading Tannakh in Sephardic pronunciation.

This site will let you look at the differences in the prayer books.
http://www.onlinesiddur.com/

If you figure out how to do it side by side other than copying and pasting, let me know.

You can read about the differences at Jewish Virtual Library and Judaism101 as well as Mechon Mamre.

I have Biblical Hebrew lessons on my blog. At lesson 80 I'm still going through Genesis but a) I tried to assume starters didn't know anything so I've been going quite slow and b) I do a vocab review about every 10 lessons to focus people on hi-freq stuff. This is going for another 62 lessons and later I'll wrap in something I learned in 2014 from a doctoral dissertation posted online in 2002. Miriam can tell you what she thought of them before you invest any time in them.

I know about leadings because I've been following one for about 2 years during which I feel like I've learned exponentially more than I knew when it started. Look at my other posts and you'll get an idea of where I've been. I just want to make sure you understand in advance, that I had been studying about 30 years before it all came to critical mass so that I could understand, for example, the dissertation. Don't rush it. You've only got 100 years to live, as the song says.

[Patricia Heil]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 9:19:48 AM UTC-4, Alex Fisher wrote:

Yeah my first reply didn't get an ack email either so here's the stuff.

mechon-mamre.org: Judaism101, with a discussion on the differences; plus mp3s of Tannakh in Sephardic pronunciation.

Jewish Virtual Library
myjewishlearning.com

Both have info.

Ashkenazic audio here, this link is to morning prayer but there are links to lots of other prayers.
http://sidduraudio.com/weekday.html

A London nusach resource for Sephardim
https://sites.google.com/site/londonsephardicongregational/

They link to this which has weekday prayers.
https://sites.google.com/site/shaarhashamayimlondon/

Sephardic prayers audio, Hebrew, transliteration and translation here on the Chabad site:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/888146/jewish/Tefilah-Trax.htm

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 2:36:53 PM UTC-4, Patricia Heil wrote:
>
> Ashkenazic audio here, this link is to morning prayer but there are links to lots of other prayers.
> http://sidduraudio.com/weekday.html

I don't know by what criterion that is Ashkanazic audio. The reader does not distinguish kommatz from patoch, tov from sov, cholam from kommatz kotton. Not Ashkanazic at all.

GEK

[Yisroel Markov]

That's correct. There are, however, some cultural differences.
Ashkenazim are more European, Sephardim, more Oriental. The differing
experiences have left a different imprint. E.g., Ashkenazi culture is,
IMHO, substantially more death-oriented (or memory-oriented, if you
will). That was the Jewish population that endured many more horrible
massacres, and as a result came up with the idea of yahrzeit, orphan's
kaddish, and prayers for the dead (Yizkor and El Malei Rahamim).
AFAIK, Sephardim have nothing of the sort that they haven't adopted
from Ashkenazim.

To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.

[snip]
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[mm]

Sephardim say Yizkor on Yom Kippur, I believe, but not on the last day
of Pesach, Sukkos, and Shavuos, as Ashkenazim do.

Plus I suppose Ash. are more likely to attend something on Yom haShoa.

But Sephardim at least read about what happened to us in Europe and we
should know that life was not a bed of roses for us in Moslem countries.

I doubt any or all of that puts more of a a gloom over Ash life than
Sephardic. Then again, I've never been in two places at once.

>To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
>eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.
>
>[snip]

--

Meir

[Alex Fisher]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 17:59:58 +0000 (UTC)
Patricia Heil <paj...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 12:35:50 AM UTC-4, Alex Fisher wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Jun 2015 12:45:37 +0000 (UTC)
> > mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 1 Jun 2015 13:21:31 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher
> > > <peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:
> > >

[snipped]

> > I'll probably contact them in the next few months.
> > >
> > > >Thanking everyone in advance,
> > > >
> > > >Alex
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Meir
> >
> > Thank you very much for your time, Meir.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alex Fisher
>
> Another site stuffed with educational info tho' not strictly on
> Sephardim, is the Chabad website. Audio and video lessons on
> Chumash, Mishnah; English translation of Mishneh Torah. If you
> decide to take any kind of a plunge this page has the addie of the
> Brisbane Chabad house.
> http://www.chabad.org/centers/default_cdo/aid/118204/jewish/Chabad-Brisbane.htm
>
>

I'm already registered on ht Chabad Brisbane site. Also receive the
newsletter from the Brisbane shule. Chabad is very useful, so is
http://www.jewfaq.org . Aish.com Machon-Mamre (I use their audio files)
http:and several other sites I've bookmarked (most of which I've first
http:heard of on this NG) are in there too.

--
Alex Fisher

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:58:12 AM UTC+3, Alex Fisher wrote:
I was sure there were no O in it so i decided to check
Wikipedia says this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummus

never heard it with O
mirjam

[mm]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 05:21:11 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher

I just read your last line and see you've been reading this ng. In fact
I think you said that in your first post. Oh well. I was just going
to suggest 4torah.com as a good search engine. It's a subset of google
with many of the options and problems of google, but only looks at
halachically-verified domains.

That means it's not good for things that have little to do with history
or halacha, like looking for blue cheese, or recipes, etc. etc. But
it's very good for what it's good for.
--

Meir

[Alex Fisher]

Which is interesting, because before I started reading this NG, I'd
never seen it with a "U". When I first started eating it, and used to
buy it ready-made, the brand I used to get was made in Israel, and was
most definitely labelled "Hommos bi tahini". How things change over the
course of some 40+ years!

--
Alex Fisher

[Yisroel Markov]

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:36:53 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> said:

>On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:50:19 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 04:37:34 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher
>><peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> said:

[snip]

>>>Not really the halakot I'm concerned about. From what I've learned so
>>>far, there are really very few significant differences.
>>
>>That's correct. There are, however, some cultural differences.
>>Ashkenazim are more European, Sephardim, more Oriental. The differing
>>experiences have left a different imprint. E.g., Ashkenazi culture is,
>>IMHO, substantially more death-oriented (or memory-oriented, if you
>>will). That was the Jewish population that endured many more horrible
>>massacres, and as a result came up with the idea of yahrzeit, orphan's
>>kaddish, and prayers for the dead (Yizkor and El Malei Rahamim).
>>AFAIK, Sephardim have nothing of the sort that they haven't adopted
>>from Ashkenazim.
>
>Sephardim say Yizkor on Yom Kippur, I believe,

I found no evidence of that. There may very well be some congregations
that do, but if so, they've adopted the custom from the Ashkenazim.

Sephardim do have their own prayers associated with death -
specifically, Hashkava, which is mostly rhymed, so it's a kind of a
piyut. It's recited graveside and at the conclusion of every prayer in
the shiva house. IOW, they are personal; there's no Sephardi concept
that there are specific times during the year when you have to say
communal prayers for the dead.

They have also adopted the custom of the orphan's kaddish and the
yahrzeit, which they call Hazkara (which once again involves the
Hashkava prayer). Both are medieval innovations. In fact, any rite
beyond thirty days after burial is post-Mishnaic; the only exception
is that a major scholar can be eulogized for a year.

>but not on the last day
>of Pesach, Sukkos, and Shavuos, as Ashkenazim do.
>
>Plus I suppose Ash. are more likely to attend something on Yom haShoa.
>
>But Sephardim at least read about what happened to us in Europe and we
>should know that life was not a bed of roses for us in Moslem countries.

No doubt, but... relevance?

>I doubt any or all of that puts more of a a gloom over Ash life than
>Sephardic. Then again, I've never been in two places at once.

Who said anything about gloom?

[mm]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 13:13:51 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher
<peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:

>On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 05:21:45 +0000 (UTC)
>mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:58:12 AM UTC+3, Alex Fisher wrote:
>> I was sure there were no O in it so i decided to check
>> Wikipedia says this
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummus
>>
>> never heard it with O
>> mirjam
>Which is interesting, because before I started reading this NG, I'd
>never seen it with a "U". When I first started eating it, and used to

Maybe it has something to do with Australian vs. USA accents? And that
they are pronounced the same by the respective writers.

For comparison, my father was named Chayim, something like Hayim or Hyim
(without the ch that confuses some readers). And I have a Cuban
cousin named Jaime, which if one doesn't know he's from a Spanish-
speaking country looks like Jamie Lee Curtis's name. But since he's
Cuban it's actually pronounced Hymay, rhymes with flyway. (not counting
the guttural part of the H/J) I'm sure this was clear. ;-)

>buy it ready-made, the brand I used to get was made in Israel, and was
>most definitely labelled "Hommos bi tahini". How things change over the
>course of some 40+ years!

--

Meir

[mm]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:03:07 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov

<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:36:53 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> said:
>
>>On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:50:19 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 04:37:34 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher
>>><peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> said:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>>Not really the halakot I'm concerned about. From what I've learned so
>>>>far, there are really very few significant differences.
>>>
>>>That's correct. There are, however, some cultural differences.
>>>Ashkenazim are more European, Sephardim, more Oriental. The differing
>>>experiences have left a different imprint. E.g., Ashkenazi culture is,
>>>IMHO, substantially more death-oriented (or memory-oriented, if you
>>>will). That was the Jewish population that endured many more horrible
>>>massacres, and as a result came up with the idea of yahrzeit, orphan's
>>>kaddish, and prayers for the dead (Yizkor and El Malei Rahamim).
>>>AFAIK, Sephardim have nothing of the sort that they haven't adopted
>>>from Ashkenazim.
>>
>>Sephardim say Yizkor on Yom Kippur, I believe,
>
>I found no evidence of that.

Where did you look?

>There may very well be some congregations
>that do, but if so, they've adopted the custom from the Ashkenazim.

Yes, I would expect so.

>
>Sephardim do have their own prayers associated with death -
>specifically, Hashkava, which is mostly rhymed, so it's a kind of a
>piyut. It's recited graveside and at the conclusion of every prayer in
>the shiva house. IOW, they are personal; there's no Sephardi concept
>that there are specific times during the year when you have to say
>communal prayers for the dead.
>
>They have also adopted the custom of the orphan's kaddish and the
>yahrzeit, which they call Hazkara (which once again involves the
>Hashkava prayer). Both are medieval innovations. In fact, any rite
>beyond thirty days after burial is post-Mishnaic; the only exception
>is that a major scholar can be eulogized for a year.
>
>>but not on the last day
>>of Pesach, Sukkos, and Shavuos, as Ashkenazim do.
>>
>>Plus I suppose Ash. are more likely to attend something on Yom haShoa.
>>
>>But Sephardim at least read about what happened to us in Europe and we
>>should know that life was not a bed of roses for us in Moslem countries.
>
>No doubt, but... relevance?

You said ".The differing experiences have left a different imprint.
E.g., Ashkenazi culture is, substantially more death-oriented (or
memory-oriented, if you will). "

>>I doubt any or all of that puts more of a a gloom over Ash life than
>>Sephardic. Then again, I've never been in two places at once.
>
>Who said anything about gloom?

You said death-oriented. Even with the appositive of memory-oriented, I
took that as being about gloom. If not, I don't know what you meant.
>
>[snip]

--

Meir

[Arthur Kamlet]

In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,

Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
>eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.

What about differences in how much time must elapse between
eating meat and dairy?
--

ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

[Arthur Kamlet]

In article <fbb81c33-a1c1-4fe8...@googlegroups.com>,

Patricia Heil <paj...@verizon.net> wrote:
>I know about leadings because I've been following one for about 2 years
>during which I feel like I've learned exponentially more than I knew
>when it started. Look at my other posts and you'll get an idea of where
>I've been. I just want to make sure you understand in advance, that I
>had been studying about 30 years before it all came to critical mass so
>that I could understand, for example, the dissertation. Don't rush it.
>You've only got 100 years to live, as the song says.

although the psalm says 70; 80 if by reason of special strength.

[Harry Weiss]

I always heard it pronouced Houmous. The commercial variety is spelled
Humus. I was talking with a non Jewish coworkmer (a vvegetarian) and
mentioned Chmoumous and at first she did not know what I meant and then
said Oh, Hummus (which I thought was compost)



--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com

[Harry Weiss]

Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
> Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
> >eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.


> What about differences in how much time must elapse between
> eating meat and dairy?

It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,. Sephardim
wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5 and a tick.
Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.

Sepahrdim do not mix fish and dairy (to various degrees)

> --

> ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

[henry.dot.goodman.at.virgin.net]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 12:48:48 AM UTC+1, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
> Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
> > Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
> > >eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.
>
>
> > What about differences in how much time must elapse between
> > eating meat and dairy?
>
>
> It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,. Sephardim
> wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5 and a tick.
> Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.
>

The usual minhag in England is 3 hours. Possibly the same in Australia?
Shavuo Tov
Henry Goodman

[Alex Fisher]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:50:37 +0000 (UTC)
Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

> Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
> > Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
> > >eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.
>
>
> > What about differences in how much time must elapse between
> > eating meat and dairy?

That's one of the really nice things about a vegetarian diet - most
dishes are pareve.

>
>
> It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,.
> Sephardim wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5 and a
> tick. Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.
>
> Sepahrdim do not mix fish and dairy (to various degrees)

One thing I've been wondering about recently is eggs. are they
considered as meat or pareve? Fish I would expect to be meat, since it
is the flesh of an animal.

> > --
>
> > ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH
>
> --
> Harry J. Weiss
> hjw...@panix.com

--
Alex Fisher

[Alex Fisher]

And, IIRC, in Berishit it says "the life of man shall be 70 years"

> --
>
> ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

--
Alex Fisher

[henry.dot.goodman.at.virgin.net]

120 See Gen 6:3
Henry Goodman

[Shelly]

How disheartening! :-)

--
Shelly

[Arthur Kamlet]

In article <b4b1fe70-c6d9-42d7...@googlegroups.com>,

There is an interesting Bereshit midrash that says Adam's lifespan
was originally set to be 1000 years,


Adam observes Cain doing repentance. He asks Cain to explain
repentance to him, and Adam chooses to do repentance.


Adam is then given a vision explaining that King David would actually
be stricken and die in infancy, so Adam decides to give David
70 years of his own lifespan. So Adam lived 1000-70 = 930 years
and David lived 70 years.

[Harry Weiss]

The davening for England is also Nusach Hamburg IIRC

[Harry Weiss]

Alex Fisher <peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:50:37 +0000 (UTC)
> Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

> > Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> > > In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
> > > Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
> > > >eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.
> >
> >
> > > What about differences in how much time must elapse between
> > > eating meat and dairy?

> That's one of the really nice things about a vegetarian diet - most
> dishes are pareve.
> >
> >
> > It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,.
> > Sephardim wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5 and a
> > tick. Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.
> >
> > Sepahrdim do not mix fish and dairy (to various degrees)

> One thing I've been wondering about recently is eggs. are they
> considered as meat or pareve? Fish I would expect to be meat, since it
> is the flesh of an animal.

Both are Pareve (with the exception of eggs that were removed from hen
after slaughter)

[Patricia Heil]

This is what I found using my search engine.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/82658/jewish/Meat-Dairy-and-Pareve.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1182104/jewish/All-About-Kosher-Fish.htm

[Arthur Kamlet]

In article <20150606173...@uqconnect.edu.au>,

Alex Fisher <peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:50:37 +0000 (UTC)
>Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
>> > In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
>> > Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
>> > >eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.
>>
>>
>> > What about differences in how much time must elapse between
>> > eating meat and dairy?
>
>That's one of the really nice things about a vegetarian diet - most
>dishes are pareve.
>>
>>
>> It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,.
>> Sephardim wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5 and a
>> tick. Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.
>>
>> Sepahrdim do not mix fish and dairy (to various degrees)

No creamed herring? :^)

>One thing I've been wondering about recently is eggs. are they
>considered as meat or pareve? Fish I would expect to be meat, since it
>is the flesh of an animal.

Eggs (of a kosher bird) are pareve.


Kosher fish are pareve with an asterisk explaining that some
communities do not mix fish and dairy as shown above, and
some do not mix fish and meat "because of the danger."

[Alex Fisher]

On Mon, 8 Jun 2015 04:50:16 +0000 (UTC)

Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

> Alex Fisher <peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:50:37 +0000 (UTC)
> > Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > > Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
> > > > Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine
> > > > >(you can eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew
> > > > >pronunciation.
> > >
> > >
> > > > What about differences in how much time must elapse between
> > > > eating meat and dairy?
>
> > That's one of the really nice things about a vegetarian diet - most
> > dishes are pareve.
> > >
> > >
> > > It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,.
> > > Sephardim wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5
> > > and a tick. Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.
> > >
> > > Sepahrdim do not mix fish and dairy (to various degrees)
>
> > One thing I've been wondering about recently is eggs. are they
> > considered as meat or pareve? Fish I would expect to be meat, since
> > it is the flesh of an animal.
> Both are Pareve (with the exception of eggs that were removed from
> hen after slaughter)

Thank you for that, Harry.

>
>
> > > > --
> > >
> > > > ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH
> > >
> > > --
> > > Harry J. Weiss
> > > hjw...@panix.com
>
>
> > --
> > Alex Fisher
>
> --
> Harry J. Weiss
> hjw...@panix.com

--
Alex Fisher

[Yisroel Markov]

That's humus - the fraction of soil organic matter that is amorphous
and without the "cellular structure characteristic of plants,
micro-organisms or animals." (Wiki)

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:43:23 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> said:

>On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:03:07 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:36:53 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> said:
>>
>>>On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:50:19 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 04:37:34 +0000 (UTC), Alex Fisher
>>>><peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> said:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>Not really the halakot I'm concerned about. From what I've learned so
>>>>>far, there are really very few significant differences.
>>>>
>>>>That's correct. There are, however, some cultural differences.
>>>>Ashkenazim are more European, Sephardim, more Oriental. The differing
>>>>experiences have left a different imprint. E.g., Ashkenazi culture is,
>>>>IMHO, substantially more death-oriented (or memory-oriented, if you
>>>>will). That was the Jewish population that endured many more horrible
>>>>massacres, and as a result came up with the idea of yahrzeit, orphan's
>>>>kaddish, and prayers for the dead (Yizkor and El Malei Rahamim).
>>>>AFAIK, Sephardim have nothing of the sort that they haven't adopted
>>>>from Ashkenazim.
>>>
>>>Sephardim say Yizkor on Yom Kippur, I believe,
>>
>>I found no evidence of that.
>
>Where did you look?

This group's archives and a book called "Journey Through Grief: A
Sephardic Manual for the Bereaved and Their Community" by Rabbi Yamin
Levy.

>>There may very well be some congregations
>>that do, but if so, they've adopted the custom from the Ashkenazim.
>
>Yes, I would expect so.
>>
>>Sephardim do have their own prayers associated with death -
>>specifically, Hashkava, which is mostly rhymed, so it's a kind of a
>>piyut. It's recited graveside and at the conclusion of every prayer in
>>the shiva house. IOW, they are personal; there's no Sephardi concept
>>that there are specific times during the year when you have to say
>>communal prayers for the dead.
>>
>>They have also adopted the custom of the orphan's kaddish and the
>>yahrzeit, which they call Hazkara (which once again involves the
>>Hashkava prayer). Both are medieval innovations. In fact, any rite
>>beyond thirty days after burial is post-Mishnaic; the only exception
>>is that a major scholar can be eulogized for a year.
>>
>>>but not on the last day
>>>of Pesach, Sukkos, and Shavuos, as Ashkenazim do.
>>>
>>>Plus I suppose Ash. are more likely to attend something on Yom haShoa.
>>>
>>>But Sephardim at least read about what happened to us in Europe and we
>>>should know that life was not a bed of roses for us in Moslem countries.
>>
>>No doubt, but... relevance?
>
>You said ".The differing experiences have left a different imprint.
>E.g., Ashkenazi culture is, substantially more death-oriented (or
>memory-oriented, if you will). "

Sorry, still don't see how what Sephardim and Ashkenazim may learn
about each other's history is relevant to how those histories are
different. What one learns about other cultures doesn't influence
one's own that much.

>>>I doubt any or all of that puts more of a a gloom over Ash life than
>>>Sephardic. Then again, I've never been in two places at once.
>>
>>Who said anything about gloom?
>
>You said death-oriented. Even with the appositive of memory-oriented, I
>took that as being about gloom. If not, I don't know what you meant.

I meant only what I said - that the cultures are different in this
respect. Please try not to jump to conclusions. To take an extreme
example, I'm pretty sure that the death cults of the Aztec were a lot
of fun to their practitioners (if not the victims). Likewise, Egyptian
pharaohs probably got a good kick out of life before embarking on
their well-furnished voyages into the beyond.

[Harry Weiss]

I remember when I was in NY when I was 13 living with my uncle so I could
go to a Yeshiva in his neighborhood, We went to Boro Park where they had
a kosher Pizza shop. (There weren't any in Florida yet) Besides eating
Pizza for the first time I tasted houmous for the first time and remember
commenting it tasted like humus, (I have been enjoying eating houmous for
many years now,)

[Harry Weiss]

Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <20150606173...@uqconnect.edu.au>,
> Alex Fisher <peter....@uqconnect.edu.au> wrote:
> >On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:50:37 +0000 (UTC)
> >Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Arthur Kamlet <kam...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> > In article <rqm0na1gpv7pgqu96...@4ax.com>,
> >> > Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGhotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >To me, these differences are way more serious than cuisine (you can
> >> > >eat whatever kosher foods you want) and Hebrew pronunciation.
> >>
> >>
> >> > What about differences in how much time must elapse between
> >> > eating meat and dairy?
> >
> >That's one of the really nice things about a vegetarian diet - most
> >dishes are pareve.
> >>
> >>
> >> It is more a difference among different Ashkenazi groups,.
> >> Sephardim wait 6 hrs as due most Ashkenazim, except many wait 5 and a
> >> tick. Germans wait 3 and Dutch wait 1.
> >>
> >> Sepahrdim do not mix fish and dairy (to various degrees)




> No creamed herring? :^)

or bagels lox and cream cheese. Some say it is only actual milk not
dairy products, I have heard that the prohibition is a result of a
printing error,

> >One thing I've been wondering about recently is eggs. are they
> >considered as meat or pareve? Fish I would expect to be meat, since it
> >is the flesh of an animal.


> Eggs (of a kosher bird) are pareve.


> Kosher fish are pareve with an asterisk explaining that some
> communities do not mix fish and dairy as shown above, and
> some do not mix fish and meat "because of the danger."
> --

> ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

[mm]

On Mon, 8 Jun 2015 22:30:50 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov

I was told by a Sephardic man at a Sephardic shul that they say Yizkor
on YK.

Egyptians and Aztecs notwithstanding, I don't think Ashkenazim get a
kick out of Yizkor, and I think as long as the Yiskor service lasts,
it's gloomy. So I still don't know what else you meant by
death-oriented. It isn't jumping to conclusions to try to understand
what is meant, if the alternative is just two words with no meaning.
--

Meir

[mm]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:46:05 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com>

wrote:

Nos habebit humus.

>
>
>
> --
>Harry J. Weiss
>hjw...@panix.com

--

Meir

[mm]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 23:46:05 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com>
wrote:

Have you ever paid close attention to non-Jews' and many Jews' too, I
think, pronunciation of Golda Meir's last name. It's usually My ear.

>
>
> --
>Harry J. Weiss
>hjw...@panix.com

--

Meir

[henry.dot.goodman.at.virgin.net]

Maybe in America. I only know May ear.
Henry Goodman

[mm]

Glad to hear it. Yes, most of the people I know or hear live in North
America.
--

Meir

[Yisroel Markov]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2015 06:41:01 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> said:

>On Mon, 8 Jun 2015 22:30:50 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:43:23 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> said:
>>
>>>On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:03:07 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>><ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

[snip]

>>>>Who said anything about gloom?
>>>
>>>You said death-oriented. Even with the appositive of memory-oriented, I
>>>took that as being about gloom. If not, I don't know what you meant.
>>
>>I meant only what I said - that the cultures are different in this
>>respect. Please try not to jump to conclusions. To take an extreme
>>example, I'm pretty sure that the death cults of the Aztec were a lot
>>of fun to their practitioners (if not the victims). Likewise, Egyptian
>>pharaohs probably got a good kick out of life before embarking on
>>their well-furnished voyages into the beyond.
>
>Egyptians and Aztecs notwithstanding, I don't think Ashkenazim get a
>kick out of Yizkor, and I think as long as the Yiskor service lasts,
>it's gloomy.

You missed my point.

>So I still don't know what else you meant by
>death-oriented.

I've explained in the previous post, still quoted above. It's
comparative. There's no "what else."

>It isn't jumping to conclusions to try to understand
>what is meant, if the alternative is just two words with no meaning.

"No meaning"? Wow. OK, whatever.