Plural of 'tallit'
Jeffrey Smith
tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
Jeffrey Smith.
To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.
J. J. Levin
The word hasn't changed, Jeffrey. Your shul's usage has.
Apparently they are now using Sephardic Hebrew (the
Hebrew spoken in Israel).
In Hebrew, the correct plural is TALLITOT.
TALLEISIM is the plural of TALLIS, which is the the
Yiddish word for TALLIT.
Jay
Jess Olson
> I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
> tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
> plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
> correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>
I have always heard (and used) "talisim." Strange, as I think it should be
something else, although I think "talitiot" would be more correct. I
presume it is just an Ashkenazi modification of the Hebrew term that has
perservered -- such as "gut yontif," which, my knowledge, has now rhyme
or reason to it -- neither because of its redundancy, nor because of its
bizarre pronunciation of "yom tov."
JO
J. J. Levin
Jess,
If the singular were TALITIT, then the plural would be TALITIOT.
Since the singular is TALLIT, you just add the OT, making it TALLITOT.
Jay
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> writes:
> I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
> tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
> plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
> correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
This is a tricky question (which pops up regularly from time to
time). The trickyness is because "tallit" is (probably) a loan word
from Greek, and hence the "-it" ending does not indicate a feminine
noun. Based solely on the "-it" ending, we'd have either "tallitot"
or "talliyot", both of which are used in modern Hebrew (and I think
are Mishnaically attested to). The Yiddish plural is "talleisim",
based on regularising the word in Hebrew as a male noun. But note,
here the root is "talleis" (or "talleit") clarifying that the ending
is part of the root and not a feminine ending (and Yemenites say
"talleith" in Hebrew, not "tallith"). IINM the form "tall(e)itim" is
attested to in some early sources as well.
Personally, in English I use "talleisim" since the Yiddish forms tend
to flow better in English (matching accent patterns) and "talliyot" in
Hebrew (I just like the way it sounds). But as far as I can tell, all
three forms may be considered correct. (Of course, if you really want
to be correct, you should go back to the Greek and say something like
"talleithoi" :-)
-Shlomo-
Jonathan J. Baker
>I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
>tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
>plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
>correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
And here I was thinking it was "taluyot". As in, "eineinu lecha
teluyot" (our eyes are covered in talleisim when we look at You)
--
Jonathan Baker | Ksivechsimetoiveh!
jjb...@panix.com | (It's a contraction, like Shkoiech, or Brshmo)
Webpage: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> writes:
> In <om> Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> writes:
>
> >I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
> >tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
> >plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
> >correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>
> And here I was thinking it was "taluyot". As in, "eineinu lecha
> teluyot" (our eyes are covered in talleisim when we look at You)
You know better than that, Jon! "Tallit" is the noun, "teluyot" is
the verb.
ani talitati
atah talituta
at tamuti im tasimi tallit!
hu talut
hi - mah amarti lifnei rega?!
anahnu taluyot
atem talitatem
aten azvu kvar!
hem talitu
hen talitutu (that way it's beged isha)
-Shlomo-
PS: Sorry, no translation possible...
Eliyahu
"Jeffrey Smith" <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> wrote in message
news:992kou42a2r9931j2...@4ax.com...
> I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
> tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
> plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
> correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>
Eliyahu
Jess Olson
You're right. My mistake. Didn't think it sounded right...of course
anything other than talisim sounds wrong to me...:-)
JO
>
>
> Jay
>
Jess Olson
>
> Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> writes:
>
> > I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
> > tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
> > plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
> > correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>
> This is a tricky question (which pops up regularly from time to
> time). The trickyness is because "tallit" is (probably) a loan word
> from Greek, and hence the "-it" ending does not indicate a feminine
> noun. Based solely on the "-it" ending, we'd have either "tallitot"
> or "talliyot", both of which are used in modern Hebrew (and I think
> are Mishnaically attested to). The Yiddish plural is "talleisim",
> based on regularising the word in Hebrew as a male noun. But note,
> here the root is "talleis" (or "talleit") clarifying that the ending
> is part of the root and not a feminine ending (and Yemenites say
> "talleith" in Hebrew, not "tallith"). IINM the form "tall(e)itim" is
> attested to in some early sources as well.
I was curious, so I looked up "talit" in my Liddell and Scott's...but
didn't find it. (Although, interesting, the word "talis" in Greek means
"marriagable maiden". Thought that was funny.)
JO
Micha Berger
: If the singular were TALITIT, then the plural would be TALITIOT.
: Since the singular is TALLIT, you just add the OT, making it TALLITOT.
The word is definitely feminine. "Talleisim" is an invention found in
Ashkenaz only after Yiddish cought on.
If the singular were tallis as the feminine diminutive for "talah" is
would be "tallios". However, "tallis" is a loan word from Greek. The
suffix isn't Hebrew, it's the Greek way of denoting the subject (rather
than the object) of the sentence. Therefore "tallitos" is more plausible.
Both are found in earlier writings, including tannaitic ones.
(BTW, in Yemenite Hebrew the word is "talleis", with a long /A/, so it
would be talleitoth in plural.)
The odd idiom is "tallis qaton" for the garment worn under the shirt
and colloquially called "tzitzis". A small tallis would be a "tallis
qetanah", taking a feminine adjective. R' Yaaqov Kaminetzky suggested
the translation "a boy's tallis", as this is a garment that just fits
the rule for the minimum size -- that it be large enough to cover the
majority of a 9 yr old boy.
-mi
--
Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
mi...@aishdas.org It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
http://www.aishdas.org and helps us cope with adversity.
Fax: (413) 403-9905 - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"
Lisa
<fin...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Or you would, if it were the Hebrew ending "-it". Which it's not.
Lisa
Jonathan J. Baker
> J. J. Levin <fin...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>: If the singular were TALITIT, then the plural would be TALITIOT.
>: Since the singular is TALLIT, you just add the OT, making it TALLITOT.
>The odd idiom is "tallis qaton" for the garment worn under the shirt
>and colloquially called "tzitzis". A small tallis would be a "tallis
>qetanah", taking a feminine adjective. R' Yaaqov Kaminetzky suggested
>the translation "a boy's tallis", as this is a garment that just fits
>the rule for the minimum size -- that it be large enough to cover the
>majority of a 9 yr old boy.
Maybe the tallis qoton was an Occidental innovation - in the Orient,
they just wore rectangular shawls as part of everyday wear? While
in the West, after the Renaissance, when modern shirts came in,
people wanted to wear something with tzitzis all the time?
Amitai Halevi
> "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> writes:
>> In <om> Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> writes:
>>
>> >I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
>> >tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
>> >plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
>> >correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>>
>> And here I was thinking it was "taluyot". As in, "eineinu lecha
>> teluyot" (our eyes are covered in talleisim when we look at You)
>
>You know better than that, Jon! "Tallit" is the noun, "teluyot" is
>the verb.
>
strongly suspect was facetious: The first "t" in "teluyot" (feminine
plural present tense of "t-l-h", to hang) is "tav", whereas the first
"t" in "tallit" is "tet".
However, while the etymology of "tallit" is unknown, it is a
venerable term in mishnaic Hebrew, the plural of which appears
throughout the Talmud almost invariably as "taliyot", very
rarely as "tallitot" and never as "tallitim". Whether or not the
final "tav" is a genuine feminine ending, it is treated as if
it were, and not as part of the root - as it conceivably may be
etymologically.
Thus, by tradition at least, "tallit" is unquestionably a feminine
term and deserves the feminine plural ending "ot". Needless to
say,"taleisim" may be proper Yiddish, but in Hebrew it is a
barbarism.
Incidentally, I would like to know Shlomo's evidence for the Greek
origin of"tallit". Jastrow, who makes a point of identifying terms
borrowed from the Greek, does not suggest it, and Ben Yehudah,who
discusses a variety of conjectures and rejects them all - including
one relating "tallit" to the Arabic "talish" - does not evenconsider
thepossibility that it may have been borrowed from the Greek.
[Shlomo's playful verbal flourish deleted.]
Amitai
> -Shlomo-
>
Jonathan J. Baker
>arg...@sunlight.cs.biu.ac.il (Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson))
>>> In <om> Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> writes:
>>> >I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
>>> >tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
>>> >plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
>>> >correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>>> And here I was thinking it was "taluyot". As in, "eineinu lecha
>>> teluyot" (our eyes are covered in talleisim when we look at You)
>>You know better than that, Jon! "Tallit" is the noun, "teluyot" is
>>the verb.
>There is a better reason for rejecting Jon's suggestion, which I
>strongly suspect was facetious: The first "t" in "teluyot" (feminine
>plural present tense of "t-l-h", to hang) is "tav", whereas the first
>"t" in "tallit" is "tet".
Don't worry, it was. But it works so nicely (it's from "hayom
harat olam" after blowing the shofar, if you haven't been in shul
in some decades to recognize it). When we see the most visible
manifestation of God, through the fingers of the Kohanim during
Duchening, our eyes are covered with the tallit.
Yes, taleh is with tav, talit is with tet.
>However, while the etymology of "tallit" is unknown, it is a
>venerable term in mishnaic Hebrew, the plural of which appears
>throughout the Talmud almost invariably as "taliyot", very
>rarely as "tallitot" and never as "tallitim". Whether or not the
>final "tav" is a genuine feminine ending, it is treated as if
>it were, and not as part of the root - as it conceivably may be
>etymologically.
Shnayim ochazin betalit, of course, which many of us learned in
junior high (or earlier, for the traditionalists).
>Thus, by tradition at least, "tallit" is unquestionably a feminine
>term and deserves the feminine plural ending "ot". Needless to
>say,"taleisim" may be proper Yiddish, but in Hebrew it is a
>barbarism.
Actually, I've wondered if it should be tallitot or taliyot, since
the singular ends in a yud-tav, like monit-moniyot. And is it
really yiddish, or is it a backformation, like meshichistim?
That is, in Yiddish, it's tallis, so maybe people said tallises,
but then it should have a Hebrew-sounding plural, so tallisim.
Amitai Halevi
> In < chr...@aluf.technion.ac.il (Amitai Halevi) writes:
[much deleted]
> >However, while the etymology of "tallit" is unknown, it is a
> >venerable term in mishnaic Hebrew, the plural of which appears
> >throughout the Talmud almost invariably as "taliyot", very
> >rarely as "tallitot" and never as "tallitim". Whether or not the
> >final "tav" is a genuine feminine ending, it is treated as if
> >it were, and not as part of the root - as it conceivably may be
> >etymologically.
>
> Shnayim ochazin betalit, of course, which many of us learned in
> junior high (or earlier, for the traditionalists).
>
> >Thus, by tradition at least, "tallit" is unquestionably a feminine
> >term and deserves the feminine plural ending "ot". Needless to
> >say,"taleisim" may be proper Yiddish, but in Hebrew it is a
> >barbarism.
>
> Actually, I've wondered if it should be tallitot or taliyot, since
> the singular ends in a yud-tav, like monit-moniyot.
>
What convinces me that the final tav is not treated
as part of the root (whatever the correct etymology),
is the preponderance of "talliyot" over "tallitot". The
latter form of the plural is used with feminine nouns
in which the "tav" is part of the root, as in "shabbat ->
shabbatot" and "brit -> britot") and the latter when
it isn't: e.g. "ta`anit -> ta`aniyot, "shtut -> shtuyot",
and your modern example of "monit -> moniyot".
It might be noted that some nouns with a final root "tav"
do take the masculine plural: "sherut -> sherutim", but
they are masculine in the singular as well, which "tallit"
is not.
> And is it
> really yiddish, or is it a backformation, like meshichistim?
> That is, in Yiddish, it's tallis, so maybe people said tallises,
> but then it should have a Hebrew-sounding plural, so tallisim.
>
I am no Yiddishist, but imagine that the plural "taleisim"
antedates the advent of Yiddish into the English speaking
world. It is indeed a backformation, but from Hebrew to
Yiddish. As Shlomo pointed out in an earlier post, in some
Ashkenazi communities "tallis" was pronounced "talleis" -
masking its femininity - so the plural could be more easily
transvested into "taleisim".
Amitai
mpfreed
> tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
> plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
> correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
'Talleisim' is in Yiddish. 'Tallitot' is in Israeli Hebrew.
Same process with 'Shabbosim'(with the emphasis on the middle vowel)
and 'Shabbatot'(with the emphasis on the last vowel).
Murray Freedman
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> In < chr...@aluf.technion.ac.il (Amitai Halevi) writes:
>>arg...@sunlight.cs.biu.ac.il (Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson))
>>> "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> writes:
>>>> In <om> Jeffrey Smith <jeffrey...@xxbtinternetxx.com> writes:
>
>>>> >I noticed in a current thread, that someone refers to more than one
>>>> >tallit as 'talleisim'. I always believed that to be the correct
>>>> >plural. In Shul, they now call them 'tallitot'. Does anyone know the
>>>> >correct plural, and can suggest why it might have changed.
>
>>>> And here I was thinking it was "taluyot". As in, "eineinu lecha
>>>> teluyot" (our eyes are covered in talleisim when we look at You)
>
>>>You know better than that, Jon! "Tallit" is the noun, "teluyot" is
>>>the verb.
>
>>There is a better reason for rejecting Jon's suggestion, which I
>>strongly suspect was facetious: The first "t" in "teluyot" (feminine
>>plural present tense of "t-l-h", to hang) is "tav", whereas the first
>>"t" in "tallit" is "tet".
>
> Don't worry, it was. But it works so nicely (it's from "hayom
> harat olam" after blowing the shofar, if you haven't been in shul
> in some decades to recognize it). When we see the most visible
> manifestation of God, through the fingers of the Kohanim during
> Duchening, our eyes are covered with the tallit.
>
> Yes, taleh is with tav, talit is with tet.
My favorite on that vein is using the letters of "SHaBaT" to spell
out "SHenishma Bsorot Tovot" - may we hear good tidings.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
Jonathan J. Baker
If the moderators at chabadtalk.com would let me post, I'd be
pushing this year's abbreviation to be "T'hei Shnas Sof Goluyoseinu".
I don't know if the Secretariat of Lubavitch (not to meantion the
Seabiscuit) has come up with an official year-deacronym this year.