Haredim vs. Intel in Jerusalem
Jay L
on shabbat.
Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
protesting violently.
Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
Jay
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258027286616&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Abe Kohen
"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7465fdf-625f-4fb0...@o31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always operated
> on shabbat.
>
> Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
> protesting violently.
>
> Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
Pray or prey?
(Yes Moshe?)
Shavua Tov,
Abe
DoD
> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a7465fdf-625f-4fb0...@o31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always operated
> > on shabbat.
>
> > Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
> > protesting violently.
>
> > Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>
> Pray or prey?
Maybe they didn't like Intel's new commercial??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6nOlgNJfHo
David
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > on shabbat.
>>
>> > Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
>> > protesting violently.
>>
>> > Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
Jay, by making a comment like that you destroy your claim of "just
reporting the news".
>> Pray or prey?
???????????
> Maybe they didn't like Intel's new commercial??
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DB6nOlgNJfHo
It's very funny. Why do you think they wouldn't like it?
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Jay L
> DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> writes:
> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always operated
> >> > on shabbat.
>
> >> > Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
> >> > protesting violently.
>
> >> > Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>
> Jay, by making a comment like that you destroy your claim of "just
> reporting the news".
>
Yup. This time I was editorializing, not just reporting, my disgust
with these non productive members of Israeli society who don't even
"recognize" the state but presume to tell everyone else how to run
their lives according to their 14th century norms.
Jay
DoD
> DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> writes:
> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > Maybe they didn't like Intel's new commercial??
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DB6nOlgNJfHo
>
> It's very funny. Why do you think they wouldn't like it?
I was just trying to be a little funny. I am under the impression that
a lot of O Jews are big on beards...
David
Jay L
Intel is not budging. Good for them.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Intel-to-remain-open-on-apf-1763854296.html?x=0&.v=6
Jay
sheldonlg
If I were in charge at Intel, and these things continued, I would simply
relocate that facility outside of Israel. It would serve them right.
Jay L
> Jay L wrote:
> > On Nov 14, 11:07 am, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always operated
> >> on shabbat.
>
> >> Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
> >> protesting violently.
>
> >> Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>
> >> Jay
>
> >>http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258027286616&pagename=JPo...
>
> > Intel is not budging. Good for them.
>
>
> If I were in charge at Intel, and these things continued, I would simply
That's exactly what Intel has said. They have been in Israel since
1985, have always operated on shabbat because what they do with the
computer chips can't wait when the chips arrive from processing, and
have done so legally (you can get an exemption and be allowed to work
on shabbat if you need it, much like the electric company and other
firms which can;t shut down every week do) and the mayor, Nir Barkat,
promised to support them. They employ several hundred people,
including 80 who they say are haredim (who don't work on shabbat, of
course) and they said that they don't need this kind of trouble, and
if it continues they will fire everyone and leave. There are plenty of
places in the world which will welcome them.
Jay
Abe Kohen
news:xZCdnVuuPKTbOJ3W...@giganews.com...
Who is "them" in "it would serve them right?" Collective punishment? Do you
think that highly productive Intel Jerusalem employees should be punished
for the behavior of some (probably unemployed) hooligans?
Why won't you extend the same courtesy to your fellow Jews that you extend
to Muslims?
Best,
Abe
sheldonlg
If I were in business and was being harassed by the local populace, and
the government did nothing to put an end to it, and there were other
places where I would be welcome, I would make th BUSINESS decision to
relocate to friendlier climes.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> > Maybe they didn't like Intel's new commercial??
>>
>>
>> It's very funny. Why do you think they wouldn't like it?
>
> I was just trying to be a little funny. I am under the impression
> that a lot of O Jews are big on beards...
Actually, there was something not "kosher" in that ad. Jewish law
forbids shaving the beard with a straight razor. Scissors or electich
shavers that work on a scissors method are OK.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Abe Kohen wrote:
>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Intel is not budging. Good for them.
>>>>
>>>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Intel-to-remain-open-on-apf-1763854296.html?x=0&.v=6
>
>>> If I were in charge at Intel, and these things continued, I would simply
>>> relocate that facility outside of Israel. It would serve them right.
>>
>> Who is "them" in "it would serve them right?" Collective punishment?
>> Do you think that highly productive Intel Jerusalem employees should
>> be punished for the behavior of some (probably unemployed) hooligans?
>>
>> Why won't you extend the same courtesy to your fellow Jews that
>> you extend to Muslims?
>
> and the government did nothing to put an end to it, and there were
> other places where I would be welcome, I would make th BUSINESS
> decision to relocate to friendlier climes.
Umm Shelly, Abe didn't ask you about the "BUSINESS decision". He
asked you about the statement "it would serve them right.".
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>> Abe Kohen wrote:
>>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
>>>> Jay L wrote:
>>>>> Intel is not budging. Good for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Intel-to-remain-open-on-apf-1763854296.html?x=0&.v=6
>>>> If I were in charge at Intel, and these things continued, I would simply
>>>> relocate that facility outside of Israel. It would serve them right.
>>> Who is "them" in "it would serve them right?" Collective punishment?
>>> Do you think that highly productive Intel Jerusalem employees should
>>> be punished for the behavior of some (probably unemployed) hooligans?
>>>
>>> Why won't you extend the same courtesy to your fellow Jews that
>>> you extend to Muslims?
>> If I were in business and was being harassed by the local populace,
>> and the government did nothing to put an end to it, and there were
>> other places where I would be welcome, I would make th BUSINESS
>> decision to relocate to friendlier climes.
>
> Umm Shelly, Abe didn't ask you about the "BUSINESS decision". He
> asked you about the statement "it would serve them right.".
>
The "them" is the Israeli government for not putting a stop to that
harassment nonsense.
Would the current employees who do not participate in those
demonstrations suffer? Absolutely! That is why it is incumbent upon
them to get the government to get of its collective keester and do
something like puttiong a general restraining order prohibiting any
picketer from coming closer than a kilometer from the plant. Then jail
every single demonstrator that violates that order.
It is doubly incumbent upon every one of the 80 charedi employees to go
to their rabbis and get them to collectively get the idiots to stop.
After all, THEY are being accommodated by Intel and don't have to work
on Saturday.
If the employees do nothing, then they are complicit by virtue of their
silence and become part of the "them" along with the government (which
will lose tax revenue as well as having citizens lose their jobs at Intel).
Do innocent people suffer in both this case and the Muslim case?
Absolutely. However, they are totally different cases because in this
case you are responding to harassment against you and in the Muslim one
you are harassing because of what someone else did to yet a third party.
Does that answer Abe's question to your satisfaction?
Amitai
> >>> Jay L wrote:
>
> >>>> Intel is not budging. Good for them.
>
>
> >>> If I were in charge at Intel, and these things continued, I would simply
> >>> relocate that facility outside of Israel. It would serve them right.
>
> >> Who is "them" in "it would serve them right?" Collective punishment?
> >> Do you think that highly productive Intel Jerusalem employees should
> >> be punished for the behavior of some (probably unemployed) hooligans?
>
> >> Why won't you extend the same courtesy to your fellow Jews that
> >> you extend to Muslims?
>
> > If I were in business and was being harassed by the local populace,
> > and the government did nothing to put an end to it, and there were
> > other places where I would be welcome, I would make th BUSINESS
> > decision to relocate to friendlier climes.
>
> Umm Shelly, Abe didn't ask you about the "BUSINESS decision". He
> asked you about the statement "it would serve them right.".
>
deserve Intel's closing their branch in Jerusalem if they are
incapable of restraining the rioters, I agree with him.
I doubt whether they would leave Israel entirely as a punitive
measure. It would cost them too much. They have too many other
development centers and production plants in Israel (Haifa, Petah
Tikvah, Yoqneam, Yaqum, Kitiat Gat-Lakhish) that can operate
peaacefully on a 24/7 basis as required.
Amitai
> Moshe Schorr
>
sheldonlg
> On Nov 16, 10:30 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> writes:
>>> If I were in business and was being harassed by the local populace,
>>> and the government did nothing to put an end to it, and there were
>>> other places where I would be welcome, I would make th BUSINESS
>>> decision to relocate to friendlier climes.
>> Umm Shelly, Abe didn't ask you about the "BUSINESS decision". He
>> asked you about the statement "it would serve them right.".
>>
> If Shelly means that the municipal and national authorities would
> deserve Intel's closing their branch in Jerusalem if they are
> incapable of restraining the rioters, I agree with him.
I already said this. Once again, you and I agree.
>
> I doubt whether they would leave Israel entirely as a punitive
> measure. It would cost them too much. They have too many other
Probably not.
> development centers and production plants in Israel (Haifa, Petah
> Tikvah, Yoqneam, Yaqum, Kitiat Gat-Lakhish) that can operate
> peaacefully on a 24/7 basis as required.
I would use it as leverage, though, to get the government to act. Of
course, one should always be prepared to follow through.
lee
the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
convenience isnt it?
sheldonlg
> Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
> the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
Did I say they didn't have a right to protest? That was why I said "not
within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
> these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
> secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
> cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
IMNSHO, civil liberties first. Judaism second. If the company is
within the law, and you want the law changed, protest in front of the
government buildings, not the plant.
> Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
> Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
> here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
> convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
> convenience isnt it?
Why not both?
lee
> lee wrote:
> > Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
> > the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
>
> Did I say they didn't have a right to protest? That was why I said "not
> within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
> dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
> will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
They should be allowed to protest whether its 1km or no km as long as
its peaceful, & thats also the point in having the press there to
cover the protest to hopefully give them more publicity.
>
> > these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
> > secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
> > cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
>
> IMNSHO, civil liberties first. Judaism second. If the company is
> within the law, and you want the law changed, protest in front of the
> government buildings, not the plant.
I agree with you there, however if its strictly secular first religion
2nd doesnt that undermine the whole point of israel somewhat, after
all your free to be as jewish as you like in America arent you
>
> > Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
> > Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
> > here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
> > convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
> > convenience isnt it?
>
> Why not both?
Because it hasnt worked out that way in practise
sheldonlg
> On 16 Nov, 15:34, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> lee wrote:
>>> Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
>>> the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
>> Did I say they didn't have a right to protest? That was why I said "not
>> within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
>> dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
>> will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
>
> They should be allowed to protest whether its 1km or no km as long as
> its peaceful, & thats also the point in having the press there to
> cover the protest to hopefully give them more publicity.
No, they should not be allowed at 0 km. That is harassing the company
that is following the law.
>>> these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
>>> secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
>>> cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
>> IMNSHO, civil liberties first. Judaism second. If the company is
>> within the law, and you want the law changed, protest in front of the
>> government buildings, not the plant.
>
> I agree with you there, however if its strictly secular first religion
> 2nd doesnt that undermine the whole point of israel somewhat, after
> all your free to be as jewish as you like in America arent you
....and that would be determined by whatever the law turns out to be,
whether secular oriented or religious oriented. They still should have
have no right to harass a law-abiding company by protesting right at the
plant.
>>> Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
>>> Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
>>> here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
>>> convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
>>> convenience isnt it?
>> Why not both?
>
> Because it hasnt worked out that way in practise
How so? If it hasn't worked out that way, it is because they don't want
it worked out that way.
Don Levey
Someone who values family live over shopping (and must choose between
the two) is able to stay home with their family. Why make someone else
stay home with theirs if they don't want or need to?
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
lee
> GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Because its mainly the low paid working class shop workers who get
forced to work on sundays while the middle classes go shopping. So its
comes down to being able to afford family time. & then the middle
class policy makers complain about poor parenting skills of the
working class, & them not taking the same responsibility for raising
their kids. I think you do the same thing over there but its mixed up
with race due to your demographics. Anyway arent we straying off topic
now
lee
protesting is too make those who you are protesting against aware of
your disagreement with their actions. How are the intel workers/execs
supposed to hear the voices of the righteous from half a mile away,
unless they use those loudspeakers they use on mosques.
sheldonlg
I don't know how it is now, or elsewhere, but when the Blue Laws in
Massachusetts were struck down, workers were paid time and a half for
Sunday work. Many people of lower income greatly appreciated that extra
pay.
Retail stores are a SERVICE industry. They are there to serve the
general public. If those stores are only open on non-family times, then
when does the "middle class" do their shopping? That "middle class" is
working then.
Besides, there is dinner time and evenings during the week and a whole
other day available on the weekend besides Sunday for "family time".
Why the need to legislate that SUNDAY will be "family time"?
sheldonlg
Newspapers, radio, etc. The same as the rest of the population. Not as
they try to enter or leave the facility.
lee
This is part of the problem in the uk, its more often just a normal
working day at normal working pay rates. & in any case we all managed
fine before sunday openings. it was I must admit a bit boring. but you
dont appreciate boredom time with your family till you havent got it
anymore.
lee
The great democratic mass media.
sheldonlg
Yup.
sheldonlg
I had the experience of Blue Laws. I hated the experience. Blue Laws
went 'bye-'bye several decades ago and I still say haleluyah.
Jay L
EXCEPT in Bergen County, New Jersey, where they still exist, and not
fior religious reasons but because some towns don't want the pollution
and traffic on Sundays. They have the population numbers (Paramus) to
refuse to cancel relinquish the Blue Laws for other towns, county-
wide, because they know that other towns will open the stiores and
compete with their malls.
> and I still say haleluyah.
I'm still waiting for the day I can say good riddance to these
anachronisms.
Jay
lee
Shelly were never going to agree on this or the protest issue either.
Your talking to someone who thinks we should all live in kibbutzim, &
who also agrees with the g8 protests. You wont convince me & I wont
convince you. So to quote a song I was listening to on the way home
from work
If you walk away I walk away
so you walk that way I'll walk this way
From 'Bright Eyes' 'Landlocked Blues' if anyone's interested, sounds
like a young even more nasally Bob Dylan
Yussel
> > On Nov 14, 11:07 am, Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always operated
> >> on shabbat.
>
> >> Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
> >> protesting violently.
>
> >> Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>
> >> Jay
>
> >>http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258027286616&pagename=JPo...
>
> > Intel is not budging. Good for them.
>
>
> If I were in charge at Intel, and these things continued, I would simply
> relocate that facility outside of Israel. It would serve them right.
The "them" would be the people who work for Intel, including the
engineers and chip designers, the people in the area whose businesses
depend on the paychecks from Intel employees, the government who will
not get the taxes from those paychecks, and Israel, which has the
reputation of being a world-class center for this kind of research and
manufacturing. The people doing the protesting won't suffer at all.
They will collect their checks and move on to harass someone else.
Parasites.
j
j
sheldonlg
I addressed who the "them" is and who is complicit in this nonsense.
Abe Kohen
government, and to the ochlei lehem hesed who live off other taxpayers'
contributions. So I don't know what you meant by "too many other ...
centers." AFAIK there is no production in Haifa, only very significant
development. It would also be a great inconvenience for a Yerushalmi to have
to commute to another Intel facility were they to shutdown in Jerusalem.
So punish the shmucks but keep Israelis employed, especially when we in the
States have over 10% officially unemployed and a lot more using other
measures.
Best,
Abe
"Amitai" <chr...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
news:c69e37ae-5870-473b...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
Harry Weiss
> lee wrote:
> > Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
> > the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
> Did I say they didn't have a right to protest? That was why I said "not
> within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
> dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
> will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
> > these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
> > secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
> > cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
> IMNSHO, civil liberties first. Judaism second. If the company is
You say civil liberties, but what about the charedi righ to protest, but
you say only when it won't be heard. you have a real stalinist view of
civili liberties.
> within the law, and you want the law changed, protest in front of the
> government buildings, not the plant.
> > Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
> > Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
> > here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
> > convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
> > convenience isnt it?
> Why not both?
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> lee wrote:
>
>> Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
>> the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
>> these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
>> secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
>> cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
>> Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
>> Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
>> here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
>> convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
>> convenience isnt it?
>
> Someone who values family live over shopping (and must choose
> between the two) is able to stay home with their family. Why make
> someone else stay home with theirs if they don't want or need to?
Well, if the prices are _cheaper_ on Sundays, you're making it
difficult to ignore that temptation.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
>>>>>> Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
>>>>>> the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
>
>>>>> within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
>>>>> dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
>>>>> will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
>
>>>> its peaceful, & thats also the point in having the press there to
>>>> cover the protest to hopefully give them more publicity.
>
>>> No, they should not be allowed at 0 km. That is harassing the company
>>> that is following the law.
snip
>> Depends how you determine legitimate protest. the point about
>> protesting is too make those who you are protesting against aware of
>> your disagreement with their actions. How are the intel workers/execs
>> supposed to hear the voices of the righteous from half a mile away,
>> unless they use those loudspeakers they use on mosques.
>
> Newspapers, radio, etc. The same as the rest of the population.
> Not as they try to enter or leave the facility.
Shelly, I'm out of America a long time. Is there no such thing
anymore as a "picket line"? I remember that striking workers would
march around the plant, right in front of the doors, and harass and
insult anyone who would enter. Is that a "legitimate protest"? Why
is it only valid in America and not in Israel?
DoD
> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > lee wrote:
> > > Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
> > > the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
> > Did I say they didn't have a right to protest? That was why I said "not
> > within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
> > dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
> > will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
> > > these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
> > > secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
> > > cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
> > IMNSHO, civil liberties first. Judaism second. If the company is
>
> You say civil liberties, but what about the charedi righ to protest, but
> you say only when it won't be heard. you have a real stalinist view of
> civili liberties.
To the left, protests are only cool, if they work in their favor....If
they don't then
you are to be ridiculed at best and at least in todays America you
are
labeled such and such and told you need your butt whooped.... Or they
bus people in
to whoop your butt.
<sigh>
David
lee
lee
saturday to be a normal contracted working day, in Israel now?
lee
I think you may be missing the obvious here David, I'm probably more
left than most people you have met, yet I support these essentially
right wing conservative protesters in their right to protest & to
protest effectively .
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> lee wrote:
>>> Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
>>> the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
>
>> Did I say they didn't have a right to protest? That was why I said "not
>> within 1 km of the plant". That way they can organize to get their
>> dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
>> will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
>
>>> these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
>>> secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
>>> cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
>
>> IMNSHO, civil liberties first. Judaism second. If the company is
>
>
> You say civil liberties, but what about the charedi righ to protest, but
> you say only when it won't be heard. you have a real stalinist view of
> civili liberties.
1 - Who says they will not be heard? Have you never heard of
newspapers, TV, radio, internet?
2 - I find you last sentence an extreme personal insult. I will only
read your posts now for the next day or two until I see your response
here. After that, if no apology, then to hell with you.
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>> Newspapers, radio, etc. The same as the rest of the population.
>> Not as they try to enter or leave the facility.
>
> Shelly, I'm out of America a long time. Is there no such thing
> anymore as a "picket line"? I remember that striking workers would
> march around the plant, right in front of the doors, and harass and
> insult anyone who would enter. Is that a "legitimate protest"? Why
> is it only valid in America and not in Israel?
There is a difference. Those workers are WORKERS AT THE PLANT and have
a grievance against the plant RELATING TO THEIR EMPLOYMENT.
In this case it is third parties WITH NO CONNECTION TO THE PLANT, trying
to harass people at the plant to get them to behave the way these third
parties want. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. If they want the law to
change, then picket the lawmakers, NOT THE LAW-ABIDING PLANT.
Do you see the difference now?
sheldonlg
...and to be clear, I have never said they shouldn't have the right to
protest. It is the location that I find objectionable. This is a
company that is abiding by the law. They should not be harassed. If
they want to change to law, protest in front of city hall. However,
David has total right-wing blinders on so he can't see anything as
"fair" if it doesn't support his agenda. Harry? well, enough said.
Amitai
Jerusalem. Far from it. I am hoping against hope that the Government
has enough guts to clamp down on the SOB's, in this matter and the
parking lots as well.
I merely wrote that ,even if Intel decides to close the Jerusalem
plant, they would not leave Israel entirely because they have too many
other operations going on here. I didn't specify which of them were
development centers and which production plants. Kiryat-Gat Lachish is
the lattter. It may well be possible to expand it and let it replace
Jerusalem
Amitai
On Nov 17, 6:05 am, "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
> Every Intel job in Israel is a blessing to the person employed, to the
> government, and to the ochlei lehem hesed who live off other taxpayers'
> contributions. So I don't know what you meant by "too many other ...
> centers." AFAIK there is no production in Haifa, only very significant
> development. It would also be a great inconvenience for a Yerushalmi to have
> to commute to another Intel facility were they to shutdown in Jerusalem.
>
> So punish the shmucks but keep Israelis employed, especially when we in the
> States have over 10% officially unemployed and a lot more using other
> measures.
>
> Best,
> Abe
>
> "Amitai" <chr0...@techunix.technion.ac.il> wrote in message
>
> news:c69e37ae-5870-473b...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
>
> I doubt whether they would leave Israel entirely as a punitive
> measure. It would cost them too much. They have too many other
> development centers and production plants in Israel (Haifa, Petah
> Tikvah, Yoqneam, Yaqum, Kitiat Gat-Lakhish) that can operate
> peaacefully on a 24/7 basis as required.
>
> Amitai
>
>
>
> > Moshe Schorr- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
lee
> Harry Weiss wrote:
My last sentence or Harry's?
lee
Its ok I just realized from your next post
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Jay L <levi...@gmail.com> said:
>>On Nov 15, 6:29=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> >> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> >> > Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always oper=
> ated
>>> >> > on shabbat.
>>>
>>> >> > Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
>>> >> > protesting violently.
>>>
>>> >> > Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>>>
>>> reporting the news".
>>
>>Yup. This time I was editorializing, not just reporting, my disgust
>>with these non productive members of Israeli society who don't even
>>"recognize" the state but presume to tell everyone else how to run
>>their lives according to their 14th century norms.
>
> An Israeli friend of mine blogged about it: "This is the end of an
> era. For the first time, a haredi demonstration had been first cleared
> by the police."
>
> The Jerusalem Post reports:
>
> "Meanwhile, The Jerusalem Post learned that the riots on Shabbat had
> been far worse than originally reported, and that in addition to the
> rocks and epithets hurled at journalists and other bystanders, haredim
> had broken into a synagogue on Intel's premises, thrown prayer books
> to the floor and used prayer stands to bash in the doors. Intel-Israel
> officials told the Post on Sunday they were shocked by the "pogrom"
> inside the synagogue and expressed disbelief at the actions of the
> rioters. Company management said they had photos of the damage caused
> to the synagogue."
> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=3D1258027297907&pagename=3DJPo=
> st%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>
> These were supposedly observant people?!
If it's true, it just demonstrates what many here have been saying.
The rioters are NOT observant Jews.
sheldonlg
How can you even question? My answer to you was "Why not both?" and you
didn't liken me to the murderer of 20 million people. Finally, that
response was immediately after Harry's insulting remark.
sheldonlg
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:11:34 +0000 (UTC), Jay L <levi...@gmail.com>
> said:
>
>> On Nov 15, 6:29 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>>> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> on shabbat.
>>>>>> Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
>>>>>> protesting violently.
>>>>>> Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>>> Jay, by making a comment like that you destroy your claim of "just
>>> reporting the news".
>>>
>>
>> Yup. This time I was editorializing, not just reporting, my disgust
>> with these non productive members of Israeli society who don't even
>> "recognize" the state but presume to tell everyone else how to run
>> their lives according to their 14th century norms.
>
> An Israeli friend of mine blogged about it: "This is the end of an
> era. For the first time, a haredi demonstration had been first cleared
> by the police."
>
> The Jerusalem Post reports:
>
> "Meanwhile, The Jerusalem Post learned that the riots on Shabbat had
> been far worse than originally reported, and that in addition to the
> rocks and epithets hurled at journalists and other bystanders, haredim
> had broken into a synagogue on Intel's premises, thrown prayer books
> to the floor and used prayer stands to bash in the doors. Intel-Israel
> officials told the Post on Sunday they were shocked by the "pogrom"
> inside the synagogue and expressed disbelief at the actions of the
> rioters. Company management said they had photos of the damage caused
> to the synagogue."
>
> These were supposedly observant people?!
WOW! I thought they were only protesting. This goes way "beyond the
pale". That was no "demonstration". That was "vandalism".
My prayer: God, please protect us from those who would put us on a
"heavenly path" - (and I apply that as well to the Falwells of the
world here in the US).
lee
It took a while to discern that from the way google groups mangles the
posts & replies sometimes. & I was worried cos I dont like to
unintentionally offend people, unless they are neoconservatives
<joke>. Last I heard it was 30 million.
sheldonlg
No, they are not! However, since they wear the black-hat uniform, YOU
(all Charedi) are thereby blackened. It is up to YOU (all Charedi) to
stop them. Silence is taken as agreement. It is the responsibility of
EVERY Charedi rabbi to PUBLICLY denounce them -- and in no uncertain terms.
I have read here on SCJM how you (general YOU here) complain that the
Imams in America are not loud enough in their denunciation of terrorists
and terrorism. Now the shoe is on YOUR foot. Speak! (again, the
general YOU).
Jay L
> Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> writes:
> > st%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>
> > These were supposedly observant people?!
>
> If it's true, it just demonstrates what many here have been saying.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Here is the
Jay L
> > st%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>
> > These were supposedly observant people?!
>
> If it's true, it just demonstrates what many here have been saying.
Here is the quote from the Jerusalem Post:
Meanwhile, The Jerusalem Post learned that the riots on Shabbat had
been far worse than originally reported, and that in addition to the
rocks and epithets hurled at journalists and other bystanders, haredim
had broken into a synagogue on Intel's premises, thrown prayer books
to the floor and used prayer stands to bash in the doors.
Intel-Israel officials told the Post on Sunday they were shocked by
the "pogrom" inside the synagogue and expressed disbelief at the
actions of the rioters. Company management said they had photos of the
damage caused to the synagogue.
End quote.
If Arab rioters had done this, the entire Nationalist press in Israel
would have been screaming from the rooftops about the imminent
takeover of Israel by the extremist Islamists, and there would have
been demands to throw all the Arabs out of Israel and the WB.
This, however, seems to be more acceptable. These hooligans, who
should be thrown in jail, are "our" extremists, the "good" extremists,
so excuses are being made as to how they are fringe groups, students
who skipped yeshiva (on shabbat??) , how therir rabbis couildnl;t
conrol them, and so forth.
If their rabbis can't control them,. maybe a few days in jail will.
Joel called them parasites. The actual term used in Hebrew is usually
ALUKOT, which means "leeches". This term is usually applied only to
the haredim who do not work and live off the graces of the state they
disdain, and does not apply to Orthodox people, with whom most
Israelis get along just fine.
Jay
Micha Berger
> Every Intel job in Israel is a blessing to the person employed, to the
> government, and to the ochlei lehem hesed who live off other taxpayers'
I wonder how much the spate of protests can be attributed to just plain
boredum. You have a community in which every male is pushed into the
same role, meaning that the majority conform and of that majority I'm
sure many don't have what it takes to be entertained by learning gemara
and its commentaries 24x7.
This gives you a disproportionate population looking for something to do
and starving for a little excitement. I would think the result is
predictable.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org excessive anxiety.... Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org 'The Almighty is my source of salvation; I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507 trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya
sheldonlg
> Abe Kohen <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> Every Intel job in Israel is a blessing to the person employed, to the
>> government, and to the ochlei lehem hesed who live off other taxpayers'
>> contributions...
>
> I wonder how much the spate of protests can be attributed to just plain
> boredum. You have a community in which every male is pushed into the
> same role, meaning that the majority conform and of that majority I'm
> sure many don't have what it takes to be entertained by learning gemara
> and its commentaries 24x7.
>
> This gives you a disproportionate population looking for something to do
> and starving for a little excitement. I would think the result is
> predictable.
How would that explain back around 1960 in Crown Heights in Brooklyn
where my wife's best friend lived, her having been spit at because she
was smoking on Shabbat? Was that "boredom" or just plain old religious
intolerance?
Jay L
> Abe Kohen <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > Every Intel job in Israel is a blessing to the person employed, to the
> > government, and to the ochlei lehem hesed who live off other taxpayers'
> > contributions...
>
> I wonder how much the spate of protests can be attributed to just plain
> boredum. You have a community in which every male is pushed into the
> same role, meaning that the majority conform and of that majority I'm
> sure many don't have what it takes to be entertained by learning gemara
> and its commentaries 24x7.
>
> This gives you a disproportionate population looking for something to do
> and starving for a little excitement. I would think the result is
> predictable.
>
I would never attribute any meanness to you, Micha, but trashing a
synagogue as a means of escaping boredom is hardly excusable. Nor, I
expect, would you excuse a pogrom in pre-war St. Petersburg or
Kishinev because the illiterate crowds who killed Jews were "bored"
with their lives and the government provided a little entertainment.
And what about when the excitement wanes and they need a bigger
thrill? Burn down a church? Then burn down a church with some people
in it? Then perhaps a Jewish library because it has treif literature?
Where does it stop?
There is one known solution to this "boredom". GET A JOB. Start
supporting your own family. Stop being a public burden.
Maybe when you face the daily grind most other Israelis face, you
won't be as bored.
(I trust you understand that the YOU here is a generic one aimed at
the haredim, not at you personally).
Jay
Micha Berger
> I would never attribute any meanness to you, Micha, but trashing a
I didn't say that being bored excused their behavior. I am, in fact,
trying to say that their "idealism" seems to me to be more about boredum
and craving excitement even in comparison to their own ideals.
Abe Kohen
raising children and working at a full-time job while dealing with too many
of life's ups and downs to even have the opportunity to be bored.
BTW Micha, not having seen you in so many years, if I actually did see you
again, would I have to make a bracha - mechayei meitim - or would email and
posting be considered enough contact to obviate the need for the bracha?
Best,
Abe
"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:655279a5-e6a9-46ef...@1g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 17, 11:59 am, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
> Abe Kohen <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > Every Intel job in Israel is a blessing to the person employed, to the
> > government, and to the ochlei lehem hesed who live off other taxpayers'
> > contributions...
>
> I wonder how much the spate of protests can be attributed to just plain
> boredum. You have a community in which every male is pushed into the
> same role, meaning that the majority conform and of that majority I'm
> sure many don't have what it takes to be entertained by learning gemara
> and its commentaries 24x7.
>
> This gives you a disproportionate population looking for something to do
> and starving for a little excitement. I would think the result is
> predictable.
>
(I trust you understand that the YOU here is a generic one aimed at
Harry Weiss
> On 17 Nov, 14:47, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > lee wrote:
> > > On 17 Nov, 12:41, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > >> Harry Weiss wrote:
> > >>> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > >>>> lee wrote:
> > >>>>> Are they riotors or protesters though?. In a democracy protesters have
> > >>>>> the right to protest. I must admit to having a certain sympathy for
> > >>>> within 1 km of the plant". ?That way they can organize to get their
> > >>>> dissatisfaction out in public, yet none of the employees of the plant
> > >>>> will be bothered and there will be no press in front of the plant.
> > >>>>> these guys after all its their Israel as much as it belongs to the
> > >>>>> secular zionists. & whats the point in having a jewish state if it
> > >>>>> cant be a little bit too jewish for its own good sometimes?.
> > >>> You ?say civil liberties, but what about the charedi righ to protest, but
> > >>> you say only when it won't be heard. ?you have a real stalinist view of
> > >>> civili liberties.
> > >> 1 - Who says they will not be heard? ?Have you never heard of
> > >> newspapers, TV, radio, internet?
> >
> > >> 2 - I find you last sentence an extreme personal insult. ?I will only
> > >> read your posts now for the next day or two until I see your response
> >
> > >>>> within the law, and you want the law changed, protest in front of the
> > >>>> government buildings, not the plant.
> > >>>>> Theres another issue thats affected us in the uk with sunday opening.
> > >>>>> Not that many people ever went to church, once coercion was removed
> > >>>>> here. But at least it was a free family day. Sunday shopping is
> > >>>>> convenient, but family life is more important than consumer
> > >>>>> convenience isnt it?
> > >>>> Why not both?
> >
> > > My last sentence or Harry's?
> >
> > didn't liken me to the murderer of 20 million people. ?Finally, that
> > response was immediately after Harry's insulting remark.
> It took a while to discern that from the way google groups mangles the
> posts & replies sometimes. & I was worried cos I dont like to
> unintentionally offend people, unless they are neoconservatives
> <joke>. Last I heard it was 30 million.
that was one aspect. the other aspect was the right to demonstrate,
vote, etc, but only if it supported his candidates, Here is the US and in
Israelpeople hae the right to demonstate (peacefully - I do not support
rioting or vandalism) in front the organziaton. People here picket
stores, business and government agencies all teh tiem. SHelly want force
those he doesn't agree with to be a full KM away.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
DoD
> protest effectively .-
??? Huh?
David
lee
"To the left, protests are only cool, if they work in their
Micha Berger
> BTW Micha, not having seen you in so many years, if I actually did see you
> again, would I have to make a bracha - mechayei meitim - or would email and
> posting be considered enough contact to obviate the need for the bracha?
Funny, but just the next day I get this in my RSS reader:
http://revach.net/article.php?id=4171
Steipler: Telephone Keeps Everyone Connected
The Shulchan Aruch writes (225:1) that when someone meets a friend he
hasn't seen in 30 days, he should make a birchas shehecheyanu (with
shem Hashem). This bracha should only be made when it is a person that
truly creates simcha when you meet them, after having not seen them
for 30 days, such as a close friend or family member. If however,
you have communicated with this friend (e.g., via phone/letter) or
if a third party has told you that your friend is alive and well,
you should not make a bracha upon seeing him after 30 days.
On a similar note, the Shulchan Aruch writes (225:1) that when someone
meets a person he has not seen in 12 months, he is obligated to
recite a birchas mechaye hamesim (also with shem Hashem). In these
instances, a shehecheyanu should not be made.
The Piskei Teshuvos writes that many poskim hold that nowadays
these brachos should only be made with the shem Hashem in extreme
circumstances (e.g. one who hasn't seen his child in a few years and
did not know his whereabouts; someone who had not been seen due to a
severe medical condition for an extended period of time). He brings
down from the Steipler (1:93) that since we have telephones, even if
you have not heard from someone in 30 days or even a year, since you
know that if anything bad had happened to that person you would find
out about it, these brachos should not be made with the shem Hashem.
Rather, the Piskei Teshuvos writes that when people are in these
types of situations, they should say a generic bracha (without shem
Hashem) of "Baruch Hashem we are able to see each other again."
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507 It is two who look in the same direction.
sheldonlg
OK, I see that there is no apology coming for your insult. Harry,
KERPLUNK! (...and I don't mean "not read". I mean killfile).
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Harry, your comparison was _ODIOUS_. When somebody says "Stalinist"
it means "murderer of 20-30 million people". Curtailing the right
to demonstrate becomes totally insignificant. You have a habit of
using hyperbole when you get mad. Shelly called you on it this time.
The menshlich thing to do is to apologize and really make an effort
to stop that habit.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
sheldonlg
Thank you Moshe. As always, YOU are the mentsch.
lee
sheldonlg
Not to me it doesn't. To me it is caving in by Intel and an
infringement on the rights of Jewish workers who might prefer Saturday
to another day of the week. (Perhaps their wives are off on Tuesday and
Wednesday and this way you would be depriving them of a family day).
Intel should just have ignored those troublemakers. In fact, what they
should have done, IMO, in response was to say "If you keep this up, our
future hiring policy will be to only hire people willing to work ANY day
of the week that we deem necessary".
sheldonlg
Following up my own post:
This "solution" makes me very angry. It is one more instance of people
forcing how THEY [supposedly] practice their religion upon others. I am
too steeped in American constitutional freedoms not to get ripping mad
at this.
I so difference in kind -- only massive degree -- between this kind of
action and that of Moslem fundamentalists (note I didn't say terorists,
I said fundamentalists). IOW, there is only difference in degree, not
in kind, between this and _forcing_ women to wear burkas.
Grrrr.
Jay L
Well said.
Jay
Jay L
Please add my grrr to yours. This is another instance of caving in to
fundamentalists. As I have often said on this ng, the Moslems have
their ayatollahs, and we have ours.
Jay
sheldonlg
I wanted to say that, but I didn't want to distract from my message by
having people go off on a tangent about ayatollahs and that they preach
terrorism. That was why I worded it the way I did -- an infringement of
religious freedom -- to keep to the topic at hand.
PS I changed the subject line.
lee
Actually somehow I didnt think it would seem fair to you.
Cant Israel be just a little bit idiosyncrantic & jewish, or are we
settling for a mezuzah at the entrance gates of Ben Gurion?
To be honest I just cant be bothered arguing about these fruitca...erm
zealots anymore.
sheldonlg
Sure Israel can be Jewish. (I don't know what you are getting at with
idiosyncratic). However, being Jewish does not equate with ramming it
down other people's throats.
lee
Only joking but Cheder 2 nights a week & Sundays, no playing out on
Saturdays, certainly felt like something being rammed down there.
Problem is Shelly I agree with you completely & disagree with you
completely too, is that the Jewish dialectic? or just me being too
libertarian for my own good?
sheldonlg
a. It is impossible to both COMPLETELY agree and COMPLETELYdisagree at
the same time.
b. Cheder was rammed down by your parents. That doesn't count while you
are were child.
c. What is libertarian about what in this case?
lee
a. Pedantically you are correct
b. I disagree I think you should only learn about religion when you of
an age to make your own mind up about whats being told to you. Give me
the boy & I'll show you the man isnt commendable imho
c. the absolute right to protest (effectively) in the case of the
religious right vs the absolute right to do as you damn well please
ps this in no way extends to fascists
sheldonlg
Once again, they have the right to protest and do it effectively. It is
the _target_ and _location_ to which I object. Intel was completely
following the law. If they didn't like the law, then go protest City
Hall to change it -- not Intel. There still are newspapers, TV, radio,
internet, etc. to spread the message -- without harassing a law-abiding
company.
Hypothetical:
Suppose you own an SUV -- a gas guzzler. Does that give me the right to
organize and run a picket line in front of your house with signs saying
"Tell Lee to sell his gas guzzler and buy a more fuel efficient one"?
Should I be allowed to do this all day and into the night as well? What
about YOUR rights? Wouldn't they be violated if I were allowed to
harass you in that manner? If I want gas guzzlers off the road, I
should advertise to get less people to buy them -- of their own choice.
You are totally within the law to own one.
There is is a statement about rights. Mine end where yours begin and
vice-versa. IOW, there are boundaries. Or, as the common example is
given, the right to free speech does not include falsely yelling "fire"
in a crowded theater.
mm
wrote:
>On Nov 17, 9:26 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> writes:
>> > Jay L <levin...@gmail.com> said:
>> >>On Nov 15, 6:29=A0am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> >>> DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>> > "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >>> >> "Jay L" <levin...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>> >> > Intel has been in Jerusalem since 1985. The plant has always oper=
>> > ated
>> >>> >> > on shabbat.
>>
>> >>> >> > Alas, the haredim claim they only now found out about it, and are
>> >>> >> > protesting violently.
>>
>> >>> >> > Don't these people ever PRAY on shabbat ?
>>
>> >>> Jay, by making a comment like that you destroy your claim of "just
>> >>> reporting the news".
>>
>> >>Yup. This time I was editorializing, not just reporting, my disgust
>> >>with these non productive members of Israeli society who don't even
>> >>"recognize" the state but presume to tell everyone else how to run
>> >>their lives according to their 14th century norms.
>>
>> > An Israeli friend of mine blogged about it: "This is the end of an
>> > era. For the first time, a haredi demonstration had been first cleared
>> > by the police."
>>
>> > The Jerusalem Post reports:
>>
>> > "Meanwhile, The Jerusalem Post learned that the riots on Shabbat had
>> > been far worse than originally reported, and that in addition to the
>> > rocks and epithets hurled at journalists and other bystanders, haredim
>> > had broken into a synagogue on Intel's premises, thrown prayer books
>> > to the floor and used prayer stands to bash in the doors. Intel-Israel
>> > officials told the Post on Sunday they were shocked by the "pogrom"
>> > inside the synagogue and expressed disbelief at the actions of the
>> > rioters. Company management said they had photos of the damage caused
>> > to the synagogue."
>> >http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=3D1258027297907&pagename=3...
>> > st%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
>>
>> > These were supposedly observant people?!
>>
>> If it's true, it just demonstrates what many here have been saying.
>> The rioters are NOT observant Jews.-
>
>
>Here is the quote from the Jerusalem Post:
>
>Meanwhile, The Jerusalem Post learned that the riots on Shabbat had
>been far worse than originally reported, and that in addition to the
>rocks and epithets hurled at journalists and other bystanders, haredim
>had broken into a synagogue on Intel's premises, thrown prayer books
>to the floor and used prayer stands to bash in the doors.
>
>Intel-Israel officials told the Post on Sunday they were shocked by
>the "pogrom" inside the synagogue and expressed disbelief at the
>actions of the rioters. Company management said they had photos of the
>damage caused to the synagogue.
>
>End quote.
>
>If Arab rioters had done this, the entire Nationalist press in Israel
>would have been screaming from the rooftops about the imminent
>takeover of Israel by the extremist Islamists, and there would have
>been demands to throw all the Arabs out of Israel and the WB.
Because, if you haven't noticed, Arabs are a much bigger threat to
Israel. They murder people and would murder millions if they had the
chance. If they can freely riot like the description above has it,
that would encourage them to do far far worse.
>This, however, seems to be more acceptable.
Of course it's more acceptable, or less unacceptable. Only you and
and a few like you would see them as equally bad. it's incredible to
me that you think this. You've allowed annoyance and dislike to turn
into an obsession if you think they are the same. Even if the events
and damage were exactly the same, the meaning would be far different.
YOu're failure to acknowledge context makes you look bad.
> These hooligans, who
>should be thrown in jail, are "our" extremists, the "good" extremists,
>so excuses are being made as to how they are fringe groups, students
>who skipped yeshiva (on shabbat??) , how therir rabbis couildnl;t
>conrol them, and so forth.
>
>If their rabbis can't control them,. maybe a few days in jail will.
>
>Joel called them parasites. The actual term used in Hebrew is usually
>ALUKOT, which means "leeches". This term is usually applied only to
>the haredim who do not work and live off the graces of the state they
>disdain, and does not apply to Orthodox people, with whom most
>Israelis get along just fine.
>
>Jay
>
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
sheldonlg
> Of course it's more acceptable, or less unacceptable. Only you and
> and a few like you would see them as equally bad. it's incredible to
> me that you think this. You've allowed annoyance and dislike to turn
> into an obsession if you think they are the same. Even if the events
> and damage were exactly the same, the meaning would be far different.
Of course he never equated the two as equally bad, as you so claim.
That was YOU, Meir, not Jay, in trying to make a point. I quote Jay:
"If Arab rioters had done ***this***, the entire Nationalist press in
Israel would have been screaming from the rooftops about the imminent
takeover of Israel by the extremist Islamists, and there would have
been demands to throw all the Arabs out of Israel and the WB."
I see nothing there about "equally bad". Rather, I see him saying "if
the Arabs had done _THIS_ .... You do understand the difference between
"this" (protesting and vandalizing Intel) and "terrorism -- killing
people", don't you?
All he has said is that if the Arabs had done THE EXACT SAME THING as
the Charedi hooligans, there would be a hue and cry to get rid of them,
but since Jews did it, well, then it's not so bad.
You have extrapolated to the point where you have no longer have any point.
Abe Kohen
"Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
news:he0l0p$tm$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
Well then it's good to hear from you.
Thanks for the answer.
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2009Nov1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> Harry, your comparison was _ODIOUS_. When somebody says "Stalinist"
> it means "murderer of 20-30 million people". Curtailing the right
> to demonstrate becomes totally insignificant. You have a habit of
> using hyperbole when you get mad. Shelly called you on it this time.
> The menshlich thing to do is to apologize and really make an effort
> to stop that habit.
A Russian Jewish American fellow at work was wearing a CCCP sweatshirt. A
Russian-Israeli-American co-worker said he was astounded that a Jewish guy
would wear a sweatshirt commerating that evil empire. Then the sweatshirt
wearing guy was offended. To him - I swear bli neder - Stalin was a HERO.
But he killed more Jews than Hitler. But he didn't kill them because they
were Jewish. !!!!!
IIRC in 1950s Israel, Israeli Labor newspapers Davar and/or Al Hamishmar
MOURNED the passing of Stalin!
Best,
Abe
Abe Kohen
policy?
????
Abe
"Jay L" <levi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1c96f3ef-b22b-431f...@p28g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Harry Weiss
> On Nov 18, 11:00?am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > lee wrote:
> > > seems to be a fair compromise
> > >http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1129001.html
> >
> > infringement on the rights of Jewish workers who might prefer Saturday
> > Wednesday and this way you would be depriving them of a family day).
> >
> > should have done, IMO, in response was to say "If you keep this up, our
> > future hiring policy will be to only hire people willing to work ANY day
> > of the week that we deem necessary".
Maybe y ou want a full set of Nuermberg laws in Israel. With Jews like
you and Shelly who needs antisemits.
Feh
> Well said.
> Jay
sheldonlg
> You condone what in America would be considered an anti-semitic hiring
> policy?
>
> ????
Read again what I wrote!!!! I defy you to find Saturday, Shabbos or
Shabbat. My statement would also include Muslims on Friday and
Christians on Sunday. So, is it
(a) anti-Semitic,
(b) anti-Muslin,
(c) anti-Christian,
(d) all of the above or
(e) none of the above?
So, Abe, where is it "anti-Semitic"? Please point to the exact words.
Bet you can't.
mm
<shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
Shelly you snipped the line just above what you quote, by Jay, which
said:
>>>This, however, seems to be more acceptable.
>mm wrote:
>> Of course it's more acceptable, or less unacceptable. Only you and
>> and a few like you would see them as equally bad. it's incredible to
>> me that you think this. You've allowed annoyance and dislike to turn
>> into an obsession if you think they are the same. Even if the events
>> and damage were exactly the same, the meaning would be far different.
>
>Of course he never equated the two as equally bad, as you so claim.
What did that line mean if not equating the two. He said it SEEMS
more acceptable, implying clearly that it is not more acceptable.
That means it''s equally bad. What else could it mean?
The only third poassible choice: Do you think he would find the bad
acts by Jews to be *less* acceptable than similar acts by Arabs? That
would be even worse, and I don't think he meant that but it's the only
third choice.
>That was YOU, Meir, not Jay, in trying to make a point.
No. It was Jay.
> I quote Jay:
>
>"If Arab rioters had done ***this***, the entire Nationalist press in
>Israel would have been screaming from the rooftops about the imminent
>takeover of Israel by the extremist Islamists, and there would have
>been demands to throw all the Arabs out of Israel and the WB."
>
>I see nothing there about "equally bad".
Now I've shown you where to look. My comments usually follow closely
on the words being commented on and here it was the line immediately
above.
> Rather, I see him saying "if
>the Arabs had done _THIS_ .... You do understand the difference between
>"this" (protesting and vandalizing Intel) and "terrorism -- killing
>people", don't you?
He's the one who chose the things to compare, the acts of Jews in this
case and hypothetical acts by Arabs, and he thinks they are equal.
They are not equal, because for the Arabs it would be part of a larger
effort to destroy the country. Now Jay has in his head that O Jews
are going to destroy the country. He's said that here in the last
week, and that's part of what I mean when I say his annoyance has
turned into an obsession.
>All he has said is that if the Arabs had done THE EXACT SAME THING as
>the Charedi hooligans, there would be a hue and cry to get rid of them,
>but since Jews did it, well, then it's not so bad.
THAT'S RIGHT. It's not as bad and he shouldn't be saying it's as bad.
This isn't some politcal science or philosophy class where we compare
similar acts are just as bad becaue they are similar. They have to be
seen in context. The context is that Arabs are a threat, if they had
their way, to the lives of millions of Israelis and everything they
do is in that context.
OTOH, 100 Jews remained out of the much larger number who iirc
demonstrated loudly but peacefully, who were there to begin with and
some of those 100 Jews -- I find it amazing too -- threw some number
of rocks at people,. destroyed property, including breaking doors and
throwing siddurim on the floor. This follow-up article doesn't how
many, if any, were injured. It's horrific, but it's not as bad as if
Arabs had done the same thing.
>You have extrapolated to the point where you have no longer have any point.
I didn't extrapolate.
Harry Weiss
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
> >> Newspapers, radio, etc. The same as the rest of the population.
> >> Not as they try to enter or leave the facility.
> >
> > Shelly, I'm out of America a long time. Is there no such thing
> > anymore as a "picket line"? I remember that striking workers would
> > march around the plant, right in front of the doors, and harass and
> > insult anyone who would enter. Is that a "legitimate protest"? Why
> > is it only valid in America and not in Israel?
> There is a difference. Those workers are WORKERS AT THE PLANT and have
> a grievance against the plant RELATING TO THEIR EMPLOYMENT.
> In this case it is third parties WITH NO CONNECTION TO THE PLANT, trying
> to harass people at the plant to get them to behave the way these third
> parties want. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. If they want the law to
> change, then picket the lawmakers, NOT THE LAW-ABIDING PLANT.
> Do you see the difference now?
Of course animal rights people will picket fur stores, the Cs picketed
Rubashkin, gays picketed a business whose owner donated heavlily to the
anti gay marriage law, etc. etc. etc., but in Israel the people are
Jooz, so they lose all their rights.
Amitai
AND or OR. I'll buy Al Hamishmar, but I'd like to see proof about
Davar.
Amitai
> Best,
> Abe
sheldonlg
wrote here is a muddled mess.
Jay spoke about ONE thing -- the protesting and vandalism at Intel. He
then said that that ONE thing, had it been done by Muslims would have
resulted in a cry in the Nationalist press to get all Arabs out of
Israel and the West Bank. However, since THIS was done by Jews, then it
seems more acceptable.
There was no OTHER act in that post that was done by Muslims. The
comparison of "more acceptable" what on who did that ONE act, not upon
different acts done by different people.
YOU, extrapolated and then attacked your own extrapolation. HE said
nothing of the kind. You are attacking the person, not what he said here.
Jay L
> sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
> > mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
No, not all their rights, Harry. But yes, the haredim lost their right
to trash someone else's synagogue, and the seculars EARNED their right
to work on shabbat if they have a government permit to do so (which
Intel does).
Jay
lee
In the above example as an environmentalist I might argue you do have
the right to stop you ruining our planet. It might even be your duty
to the rest of humanity & its scion to stop me damaging the planet.
This old example "falsely yelling "fire" in a crowded theater" is one
of the most inappropriate examples for arguing about free
speech. Personally I would be ashamed to use it.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> sheldonlg wrote:
>> lee wrote:
>>> seems to be a fair compromise
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1129001.html
>>
>> Not to me it doesn't. To me it is caving in by Intel and an
>> infringement on the rights of Jewish workers who might prefer Saturday
>> to another day of the week. (Perhaps their wives are off on Tuesday and
>> Wednesday and this way you would be depriving them of a family day).
>>
>> Intel should just have ignored those troublemakers. In fact, what they
>> should have done, IMO, in response was to say "If you keep this up, our
>> future hiring policy will be to only hire people willing to work ANY day
>> of the week that we deem necessary".
>
>
> This "solution" makes me very angry. It is one more instance of people
> forcing how THEY [supposedly] practice their religion upon others. I am
> too steeped in American constitutional freedoms not to get ripping mad
> at this.
As you say, you're looking from an American perspective. In Israel
there are _laws_ about days of rest during the week.
> I so difference in kind -- only massive degree -- between this kind of
> action and that of Moslem fundamentalists (note I didn't say terorists,
> I said fundamentalists). IOW, there is only difference in degree, not
> in kind, between this and _forcing_ women to wear burkas.
>
> Grrrr.
Shelly, if you're worried about American freedons, be worried about
the UN depriving you of Free Speech by naking "insulting" Islam a
"crime"!
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Don Levey
> On Nov 18, 10:59 pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> There is is a statement about rights. Mine end where yours begin and
>> vice-versa. IOW, there are boundaries. Or, as the common example is
>> given, the right to free speech does not include falsely yelling "fire"
>> in a crowded theater.
>
> the right to stop you ruining our planet. It might even be your duty
> to the rest of humanity & its scion to stop me damaging the planet.
> This old example "falsely yelling "fire" in a crowded theater" is one
> speech. Personally I would be ashamed to use it.
Why? This phrase comes from a justice on the US Supreme Court, in
discussing justifiable restrictions to unfettered speech.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
lee
> GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Please note I later edited my post to remove the stupid as it seemed
personally insulting.
TYhat said the example doesnt make sense, as unless there really is a
fire, its false & its ridiculous to claim the right to say that.
A bit like the argument against having a free society, but what if
everyone decided to go to the north pole one day.
Yes you can conduct political arguments with these soundbites but I
think it degrades the political
process to only argue by ridicule & quip
A better example is imho having the right to say "all jews are crooks"
or "all moslems are terrorists"
as these statements are intended to incite racial (please dont nitpick
here) hatred. but should people including fascists be allowed to utter
these sentiments in the public arena
Don Levey
>
> TYhat said the example doesnt make sense, as unless there really is a
> fire, its false & its ridiculous to claim the right to say that.
It occurs to me that you may have this backward. The phrase "fire in a
crowded theatre" isn't meant to convey the right to say anything at any
time. Rather, the example is used as one where the direct harm of such
speech can override the benefit of the right to say it.
In a crowded theatre, yelling "fire" when there is none can cause panic,
injury, and even death as a result of a mass exodus. The courts held
that speech which is inherently dangerous and serves no constructive
purpose can be restricted - speech that presents a "clear and present
danger" is within the government's interest and purview of restriction.
This is known as the "Schenck case" from 1919. This was later partially
overturned in Brandenburg v Ohio, which limited the restrictable speech
to that which is likely to incite "imminent lawless action".
Thus the phrase is normally used to indicate precisely that the right to
unrestricted free speech does NOT exist in all circumstances.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
lee
> GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
Possibly I do but doesnt my objection to the example work in the
reverse case too?
sheldonlg
Yes.