Ted Cruz Remark

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cindys

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Jan 15, 2016, 8:29:15 AM1/15/16
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At the risk of discussing American politics...I will get straight to the point: IMO, Ted Cruz's remark at last night's Republican debate about "New York values" smacked of antisemitism. I am wondering if anybody else saw the debate and/or a recap and took his remarks the same way. In an effort to ensure that anyone reading this post can participate (including any of the non-Americans on SCJM)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/01/14/6th-republican-debate-transcript-annotated-who-said-what-and-what-it-meant/

--begin cite---

BARTIROMO: Senator Cruz, you suggested Mr. Trump, quote, "embodies New York values." Could you explain what you mean by that?

CRUZ: You know, I think most people know exactly what New York values are.

(LAUGHTER)

BARTIROMO: I am from New York. I don't.

CRUZ: ... there are many, many wonderful, wonderful working men and women in the state of New York. But everyone understands that the values in New York City are socially liberal or pro-abortion or pro- gay-marriage, focus around money and the media.

[...]

---end cite---

(The above was followed by a Trump monologue that the citizens of New York deserved to be held in high esteem for the way they handled the aftermath of 9/11.)

To get to the point: Although I know that Cruz was allegedly generically referring to people with liberal social values (he is a social conservative), whenever I hear a politician (or anyone) use words like "money, the media," or Wall Street (the latter expression was not used by Cruz in this exchange), I consider these expressions to be code words for "Jews." Do other people agree with me or do you think I'm overreacting about this?

And BTW, I think Cruz's remarks about New Yorkers were a huge political blunder anyway. If you want to be the POTUS, you don't go insulting a state that holds such a huge population and such a significant number of electoral votes. To me, it was the Mitt Romney 47% remark all over again.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Shelly

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Jan 15, 2016, 9:41:25 AM1/15/16
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First, I didn't listen to the debate because I could never vote for
Trump, Cruz or the rest of that bunch. Well, I could for Kasich, and if
I had to, Paul.

That said, I don't know if you are over-reacting, but I was taken aback
by the "focus around money" part.

I sure hope you are right about the 47% comment.

--
Shelly

topazgalaxy

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Jan 15, 2016, 10:38:03 AM1/15/16
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For myself, I thought Cruz making a general comment about New York City or N Y State was foolish, however, he may believe that he has a 1 in a million chance of winning NY state anyway.
I think the whole political process is more divisive than ever lately.
There is a 'us vs them' attitude in the country for several years now. IIRC Ben Carson pointed this out...I saw a video which was not the whole debate but selectively chose some of the candidate statements. Ben Carson pointed this out in his own way I believe.
When someone who is not a Jew says "they (the Other) focuses on money and the media" I can see how some would think this is a code word for Jews.
Maybe it is like Jessie Jackson calling N Y City Hymietown but much more subtle.
Frankly, I have mixed feelings and my tendency is to give Cruz the benefit of the doubt but I have mixed feelings about his statement. Maybe it was unconscious rather than malicious. Anyway his statement allows for plausible deniability unlike the Jessie Jackson statement..maybe that is the true skill of a politician-- plausible deniability.

Also, Trump seems to be winning in the polls when he insults one group or the other. I do not recommend that kind of divisiveness or brashness or nastiness, but maybe some of the other candidates think, for whatever reason, it is working so they are going down to his level.
This whole political race is nasty.



Fred Goldstein

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Jan 15, 2016, 12:38:23 PM1/15/16
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On 1/15/2016 8:35 AM, cindys wrote:
> ...
>
> To get to the point: Although I know that Cruz was allegedly generically referring to people with liberal social values (he is a social conservative), whenever I hear a politician (or anyone) use words like "money, the media," or Wall Street (the latter expression was not used by Cruz in this exchange), I consider these expressions to be code words for "Jews." Do other people agree with me or do you think I'm overreacting about this?

You're right. It's a dog-whistle to his base. Cruz is not only an
"evangenlical", he's a Dominionist. That's an extremist branch of
Christianity, roughly equivalent to the Taliban's view of Islam, which
believes that the state should enforce a particular view of
Christianity, complete with capital punishment for transgressions so
named in their King James "Old Testament" (I would not ascibe it to the
actual Tanach), even though the Jewish interpretation made capital
punishment rather the exception. And of course no tolerance for
religious dissent. This plays well to a significant number of Iowa voters.

> And BTW, I think Cruz's remarks about New Yorkers were a huge political blunder anyway. If you want to be the POTUS, you don't go insulting a state that holds such a huge population and such a significant number of electoral votes. To me, it was the Mitt Romney 47% remark all over again.
I don't agree with that political calculus. Were Cruz to get the
nomination, his odds of winning New York were about those of my hitting
the Powerball, having bought zero tickets. His strategy would be to
sweep the south, the mountain west, the plains, and enough of the
midwest to get 271 electoral votes. He wouldn't waste a dime on New York
or California. That's a consequence of the electoral college system.
Were it a direct election requiring 50% after a(n) (instant) runoff, the
politics would be very different.

Yisroel Markov

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Jan 15, 2016, 12:41:25 PM1/15/16
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:35:28 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:

>At the risk of discussing American politics...I will get straight to the point: IMO, Ted Cruz's remark at last night's Republican debate about "New York values" smacked of antisemitism. I am wondering if anybody else saw the debate and/or a recap and took his remarks the same way. In an effort to ensure that anyone reading this post can participate (including any of the non-Americans on SCJM)
>
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/01/14/6th-republican-debate-transcript-annotated-who-said-what-and-what-it-meant/
>
>--begin cite---
>
>BARTIROMO: Senator Cruz, you suggested Mr. Trump, quote, "embodies New York values." Could you explain what you mean by that?
>
>CRUZ: You know, I think most people know exactly what New York values are.
>
>(LAUGHTER)
>
>BARTIROMO: I am from New York. I don't.
>
>CRUZ: ... there are many, many wonderful, wonderful working men and women in the state of New York. But everyone understands that the values in New York City are socially liberal or pro-abortion or pro- gay-marriage, focus around money and the media.
>
>[...]
>
>---end cite---
>
>(The above was followed by a Trump monologue that the citizens of New York deserved to be held in high esteem for the way they handled the aftermath of 9/11.)
>
>To get to the point: Although I know that Cruz was allegedly generically referring to people with liberal social values (he is a social conservative), whenever I hear a politician (or anyone) use words like "money, the media," or Wall Street (the latter expression was not used by Cruz in this exchange), I consider these expressions to be code words for "Jews." Do other people agree with me or do you think I'm overreacting about this?

I think you're over-reacting a bit, yes. E.g., "international bankers"
is an expression much more firmly associated with Jews in the
conspiratorial mind than either "money" or "media," so I recently
criticized the use of the former by Beach Runner, but did he mean it
that way? I doubt it. Is everyone complaining about Hollywood mores
blaming the Jews? Etc.

But you're not the only one taking it this way:

"Cruz was betting that... he could... echo Woody Allen’s famous New
York-centric line from Annie Hall and have it resonate with the voters
he’s trying to reach: “The rest of the country looks upon New York
like we’re left-wing Communist Jewish homosexual pornographers. I
think of us that way sometimes, and I live here.” [...] Trump’s
version of “New York values” ... aren’t the ones Woody Allen was
teasing. Nor are they the values of 9/11. They are the values of the
New York of caricature — the Walter Winchell – Ralph Kramden – Archie
Bunker – Andrew Dice Clay – Spike Lee New York, the city of pushy,
obnoxious, informal and unpretentious loudmouths who get in your face
and “tell it like it is.”
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/start-spreadin-news/

>And BTW, I think Cruz's remarks about New Yorkers were a huge political blunder anyway. If you want to be the POTUS, you don't go insulting a state that holds such a huge population and such a significant number of electoral votes. To me, it was the Mitt Romney 47% remark all over again.

Well, the last time New York state had voted for a Republican
candidate was in 1980 and 1984, but Reagan was a special case, as was
McGovern in 1972. Republicans have to count on winning without that
state. The 47% remark was federal :-)
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

DoD

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Jan 15, 2016, 1:49:54 PM1/15/16
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"topazgalaxy" <topaz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d24853b9-4ffe-4098...@googlegroups.com...

> There is a 'us vs them' attitude in the country for several years now.

Yep.... For quite some time....

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"I just played Kansas City," she reportedly said. "The only time you want to
visit there is if you're going to make an emergency landing in a plane
crash.

"They are really dumb there. Americans are smart on both coasts, but then as
you move to the center of the country, the people get dumber and dumber and
dumber. And the apex of stupidity is Kansas City."

Joan Rivers
-------------------------------------------------------------------


> Maybe it is like Jessie Jackson calling N Y City Hymietown but much more
> subtle.

LOL... You are really entertaining that idea? New York is know for being
the financial district of the world basically... It is also
host to Fox news headquarters among others..... Good morning America ....
Jimmy Fallon.... etc etc.... come on... And none of that
has anything to do with Jews...

When I went there, as much as that Darren character called NYC (sweet Jew
city) or however he termed it.... I didn't get the impression of
it being "Jewish", whatever that means.... The whole week I was there, I saw
three people wearing kippas on the subway and on one
street corner, I saw a couple of men dressed in black hat garb and finally
at times square, I saw a couple of kids wearing black hat garb
handing out flyers on mosiach..... I actually had more interaction with
Jews (Israeli) at the Oak Park mall here in KC (they, running
Dead Sea Seacret spa products), than I had in a week in New York City.. In
fact, NYC, was dirty and most of the people seemed like they
spoke Spanish and looked Guatemalan .... It actually reminded me of Central
America (Panama City) than anything else...

> Frankly, I have mixed feelings and my tendency is to give Cruz the benefit
> of the doubt but I have mixed feelings about his statement.

I don't know... Cruz seems to be very positive on Israel.... I would bet my
next two paychecks he didn't have Jews in mind when making those statements
and frankly it seems a little bit like that overly vain girl in the dance
that thinks the guy is looking at her, but he is really looking at the clock
behind her.... She thinks she is the center of attention, whereas he could
care less about her.



mm

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Jan 15, 2016, 6:28:47 PM1/15/16
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:35:28 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>At the risk of discussing American politics...I will get straight to the point: IMO, Ted Cruz's remark at last night's Republican debate about "New York values" smacked of antisemitism. I am wondering if anybody else saw the debate and/or a recap and took his remarks the same way. In an effort to ensure that anyone reading this post can participate (including any of the non-Americans on SCJM)
>
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/01/14/6th-republican-debate-transcript-annotated-who-said-what-and-what-it-meant/
>
>--begin cite---
>
>BARTIROMO: Senator Cruz, you suggested Mr. Trump, quote, "embodies New York values." Could you explain what you mean by that?
>
>CRUZ: You know, I think most people know exactly what New York values are.
>
>(LAUGHTER)
>
>BARTIROMO: I am from New York. I don't.
>
>CRUZ: ... there are many, many wonderful, wonderful working men and women in the state of New York. But everyone understands that the values in New York City are socially liberal or pro-abortion or pro- gay-marriage, focus around money and the media.
>
>[...]
>
>---end cite---
>
>(The above was followed by a Trump monologue that the citizens of New York deserved to be held in high esteem for the way they handled the aftermath of 9/11.)
>
>To get to the point: Although I know that Cruz was allegedly generically referring to people with liberal social values (he is a social conservative), whenever I hear a politician (or anyone) use words like "money, the media," or Wall Street (the latter expression was not used by Cruz in this exchange), I consider these expressions to be code words for "Jews." Do other people agree with me or do you think I'm overreacting about this?

That was my reaction too. Before I saw this post, I'd already posted
saying the same thing. And a caller to Diane Rehm's show at 10 AM
said the same thing. (Today the weekly domestic news roundup was
hosted by Derick McGinty with Susan Glasser, Naftali ben David, and
one other guest. )

Well, I'm not actually saying it's his code for Jews. But it's the
way his mind works.

Of course don't forget, or if you didn't know, his first (and only)
senate campaign was funded with money borrowed from his wife's
employer, Goldman Sachs. If he'd only mentioned money, I'd think
maybe this loan was the dominant influence, but he said media too.

Wikip "In January 2016, the New York Times reported that Cruz and his
wife had taken out low-interest loans from Goldman Sachs (where she
worked) and Citibank, and failed to report the nearly $1 million in
loans on Federal Election Commission disclosure statements as required
by law.**[96] Cruz had previously stated that he and his wife
liquidated substantial personal assets, "all we had saved", to finance
the Senate primary campaign.[96] The bank loans were largely repaid by
later campaign fundraising. A spokesperson for Cruz said his failure
to disclose the loans was "inadvertent" and said he would be filing
supplementary paperwork.[96]"

96 shows how he misrepresented to the people how he raised the
campaign money, worse IMO than failing to fill out the form correctly.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/us/politics/ted-cruz-wall-street-loan-senate-bid-2012.html
The story shows a lot of misrepresentation by him and his wife.

He borrowed against his Goldman account. I did this with my brother.
It's maybe the best way to get low interest, because if you don't pay,
they already have some control over the assets they will sieze. For
one thing, you can't sell the assets you've borrowed against until you
pay them back. But you don't have to sell and pay capital gains tax.


**Though he did report them somewhere else, and his lawyer says wrt
FEC there are different requirements for incumbents and others. Huh?
I doubt the differences apply here.

The whippersnapper has only been in office for 3 years. When he's
older, he might be smarter.


>And BTW, I think Cruz's remarks about New Yorkers were a huge political blunder anyway. If you want to be the POTUS, you don't go insulting a state that holds such a huge population and such a significant number of electoral votes. To me, it was the Mitt Romney 47% remark all over again.

Except almost everyone on social security, veterans's retirment, and
permanent disabilty were included in the 47% and were justly insulted.
Many people also think of money and media when they think of NY or
Jews.

In the same way many people think of servility and low skills when
they think of black people. It's deep down inside. Maybe an
immigrant woudn't have absorbed it. (Plus the many people who just
plain dislike or hate black people, who are vocal and apparent in
other forums. I have a reason for going off-topic.)

>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.

DoD

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Jan 16, 2016, 1:11:23 PM1/16/16
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"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:b068b0fd-6e5f-4c07...@googlegroups.com...
LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a politician,
looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way to go
about it... Ummmm, I guess whoever coined the term "Empire State" was
really thinking about Jews when they first used that term..

FWIW, my own opinion is he used it generically like I would the left coast,
or as people in New York would say I live in fly over country... I had
the opportunity to go to New York not long ago and met some of the
people.... It was apparent **right away** that people from there look down
on
us midwesterners like we are cow-dung... and I suppose the same is true in
reverse..... After relaying my experiences to some people I know around
here that I went there.... the people I talked to that had also visited
there, gave the same negative opinions of New York... I guess it is a
mutual dislike... I have no use for it myself... I also hate California,
pity, as the weather is actually nice there...


> And BTW, I think Cruz's remarks about New Yorkers were a huge political
> blunder anyway. If you want to be the POTUS, you don't go insulting a
> state that holds such a huge population and such a significant number of
> electoral votes. To me, it was the Mitt Romney 47% remark all over again.

Cruz would never win New York....so I don't think he really cares...

JJ

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Jan 16, 2016, 11:55:18 PM1/16/16
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Cindy had it right when she started this thread.

When I heard Cruz say it, I was reminded of the very first episode of
THE WEST WING, where some evangelical woman says of Toby and one other
person that they are "from New York". Toby immediately gets it and says
to the other person, in public, "She means we are Jews".

And tonight Bill Maher got it. He wondered about New York and power and
money and joked around about "maybe it's the Muslims? No, the Indians...
no, what other groups in NY would be associated with money and media" ???

The panel got it. So did I.

Jay



cindys

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Jan 16, 2016, 11:56:23 PM1/16/16
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LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular politician, and my reason was that people who have seen him on the campaign trail (and these were ostensibly his supporters) have stated that in his single-minded determination to win, he has demonstrated ruthlessness and lacks even the smallest amount of empathy for other people. People who have seen him on the campaign trail have actually used the word "evil" to describe him. Except for Trump, I haven't seen that adjective applied to any of the other Republican candidates. And I also want to see a moderate and not a crazy evangelical in the White House. So, I really wasn't looking for an excuse to "hate" him. I already had plenty of legitimate reasons.

And FTR, I am not the only person to see his remarks as a slap at Jews. Since my post, at least two mainstream columnists have made the same observations. The only thing that was missing from his money and media comment was a reference to who controls Hollywood.


> looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way to go
> about it... Ummmm, I guess whoever coined the term "Empire State" was
> really thinking about Jews when they first used that term..

Don't be ridiculous. And I resent your mockery. Just remember this exchange the next time you want to complain that I am attacking you on this forum.

>
> FWIW, my own opinion is he used it generically like I would the left coast,
> or as people in New York would say I live in fly over country...

Then you could have started your post right there and expressed your opinion without being rude and sarcastic.

> I had
> the opportunity to go to New York not long ago and met some of the
> people.... It was apparent **right away** that people from there look down
> on
> us midwesterners like we are cow-dung...

And that may very well be true. Apparently, a lot of the people who live in New York City hold similar negative views of those of use who live in Western New York. My sister's ex-fiance's family once called her a "hick."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Beach Runner

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Jan 16, 2016, 11:59:09 PM1/16/16
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I think Cindy is right, Cruz wants Christian prayer in the schools.

He stuck his hand out and got a lot of money from New York, and it turns
out there is a huge super Pac headed from someone in New York. The head of the
superpac said "No Comment".

Of course when he was talking about a sterotype and in was definately
both anti liberal and anti semetic, playing on the anti semetic
feelings in the country.

Interestingly, a recent study showed that even after all the terrorist
crimes, the most hate crimes by percentage and number that are religious
based are anti-semetic.

In fact, 18% of all hate crime in the US is anti Jewish.
The most hate crime is against blacks, ethnicity, and gay men.
Then comes hate crimes against Jews.

The data was published today.

Since most terrorists are KKK and white supremists, maybe we should
round up all the white christians just to be "safe":-)


mm

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Jan 17, 2016, 5:52:18 AM1/17/16
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 23:35:00 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>Cindy said:
>>To get to the point: Although I know that Cruz was allegedly generically referring to people with liberal social values (he is a social conservative), whenever I hear a politician (or anyone) use words like "money, the media," or Wall Street (the latter expression was not used by Cruz in this exchange), I consider these expressions to be code words for "Jews." Do other people agree with me or do you think I'm overreacting about this?
>
>That was my reaction too. Before I saw this post, I'd already posted
>saying the same thing. And a caller to Diane Rehm's show at 10 AM
>said the same thing. (Today the weekly domestic news roundup was
>hosted by Derick McGinty with Susan Glasser, Naftali ben David, and
>one other guest. )
>
>Well, I'm not actually saying it's his code for Jews. But it's the
>way his mind works.
>
>Of course don't forget, or if you didn't know, his first (and only)
>senate campaign was funded with money borrowed from his wife's
>employer, Goldman Sachs.

I repeated this the way I heard it, and in doing so I fell into the
trap or using the language of political opponents and the TV press,
who are everyone's opponent. (I'm not referring to leaving out
weakeners that should maybe have been there, like "partially" or
"largely" funded.)

This is the way they should have phrased it in the first place:
"His senate campaign was funded with money his wife borrowed against
her stock (or stock and bond, or asset) portfolio, which she maintains
at Goldman Sachs, from whom she borrowed the money. They are also her
employer." They're probably entitled or even obliged to mention who
she works for, but this way it doesn't sound like Goldman was giving
her a sweetheart loan, since they probably weren't. Anyone with
assets in the custody (right word) of a broker can borrow money the
way she did, and they have no evidence she paid less interest than
anyone else would. If they had evidence, they should have offered it.
But the TV press is in the business of concocting controversy, so they
tried to make it sound like she got a loan from her employer, Goldman,
and in return Cruz will be beholden to them when he's president.

The TV press is disgusting. But they'll still have their annual
awards dinners and over the years, each of them will get one award or
another, and they'll fancy themselves in the mold of Horace Greeley or
Edward R. Murrow. I think they even named one award after Murrow.


OTOH, and FTR there was nothing wrong with Megan Kelly's opening
question of Trump and his whining that it wasn't a fair question is
just an example of his usual technique. Whatever the sin, when he
commits it he claims he didn't but when others do it far less often,
he complains about it.


>f he'd only mentioned money, I'd think
>maybe this loan was the dominant influence, but he said media too.
>
>Wikip "In January 2016, the New York Times reported that Cruz and his
>wife had taken out low-interest loans from Goldman Sachs (where she
>worked) and Citibank, and failed to report the nearly $1 million in
>loans on Federal Election Commission disclosure statements as required
>by law.**[96] Cruz had previously stated that he and his wife
>liquidated substantial personal assets, "all we had saved", to finance
>the Senate primary campaign.[96] The bank loans were largely repaid by
>later campaign fundraising. A spokesperson for Cruz said his failure
>to disclose the loans was "inadvertent" and said he would be filing
>supplementary paperwork.[96]"
>
>Footnote 96: shows how he misrepresented to the people how he raised the

DoD

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Jan 17, 2016, 10:15:54 AM1/17/16
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"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8e0428b8-48aa-4866...@googlegroups.com...

>> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a
>> politician,
>
> LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular
> politician, and my reason was that people who have seen him on the
> campaign trail (and these were ostensibly his supporters) have stated that
> in his single-minded determination to win, he has demonstrated
> ruthlessness and lacks even the smallest amount of empathy for other
> people. People who have seen him on the campaign trail have actually used
> the word "evil" to describe him. Except for Trump, I haven't seen that
> adjective applied to any of the other Republican candidates. And I also
> want to see a moderate and not a crazy evangelical in the White House. So,
> I really wasn't looking for an excuse to "hate" him. I already had plenty
> of legitimate reasons.
----------------------------
I don't like him either.... I agreed with Shel that the only Republican I
can stomach to vote for is Kasich. But is it really necessary to look for
antisemitism to add to it? If Hillary said she had
New York values, would you have thought she meant had Jewish values? I am
guessing not
----------------------------

> And FTR, I am not the only person to see his remarks as a slap at Jews.
> Since my post, at least two mainstream columnists have made >the same
> observations. The only thing that was missing from his money and media
> comment was a reference to who controls >Hollywood.

The only person I heard make that connection outside of you is Geraldo
Rivera, but he admitted, that he didn't like the
guy to begin with.... Again if you didn't like the guy to begin with it is
pretty easy to assume the worse of his comment.

>> looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way to go
>> about it... Ummmm, I guess whoever coined the term "Empire State" was
>> really thinking about Jews when they first used that term..
>
> Don't be ridiculous. And I resent your mockery. Just remember this
> exchange the next time you want to complain that I am attacking you on
> this forum.

I wasn't really mocking... Just trying to make a point.... NY is full of
media and money... I don't make the connection to Jews
for that.... I make the connection that NY is one of the oldest cities and
that is just the way it is...

>> FWIW, my own opinion is he used it generically like I would the left
>> coast,
>> or as people in New York would say I live in fly over country...
>
> Then you could have started your post right there and expressed your
> opinion without being rude and sarcastic.

I was being sarcastic.... Probably because to me it seems far fetched that
someone that is so pro Israel would
make an anti semitic statement.... especially because NY is full of money
and media and that is a fact
..... Why would he do such a thing and why would you automatically equate
that money and media to Jews? I certainly
didn't get that impression when I visited there...

>> I had
>> the opportunity to go to New York not long ago and met some of the
>> people.... It was apparent **right away** that people from there look
>> down
>> on
>> us midwesterners like we are cow-dung...
>
> And that may very well be true. Apparently, a lot of the people who live
> in New York City hold similar negative views of those of use who live in
> Western New York. My sister's ex-fiance's family once called her a "hick."

It does seem that NYC people have an above thou attitude..... It is what it
is... and when someone else has negative attitude toward
NYCers, doesn't mean they harbor antisemitism..... Hillary supposedly called
Dick Morris a dirty Jew or something like that....Seems
more antisemitic than someone talking about NYC values.. It goes right back
to my original point... If you are prone to have a favorable view of
someone, you can dismiss or excuse what they do, but if you don't like
someone from the get go, it is easier to believe the worst about that
person..
That is all I was getting at.

Shelly

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Jan 17, 2016, 10:17:07 AM1/17/16
to
On 1/16/2016 1:17 PM, DoD wrote:
> FWIW, my own opinion is he used it generically like I would the left
> coast, or as people in New York would say I live in fly over country...
> I had
> the opportunity to go to New York not long ago and met some of the
> people.... It was apparent **right away** that people from there look
> down on
> us midwesterners like we are cow-dung... and I suppose the same is true
> in reverse..... After relaying my experiences to some people I know around
> here that I went there.... the people I talked to that had also visited
> there, gave the same negative opinions of New York... I guess it is a
> mutual dislike... I have no use for it myself... I also hate
> California, pity, as the weather is actually nice there...

Your opinion of New York and New Yorkers is not restricted to the
midwest. Besides the many other reasons, it was one of the reasons that
we wanted to escape from Southeast Florida. (Miami-Ft. Lauderdale area)

Where I live (The Villages) we have a great mix of people from New
England, New York City area, and the midwest (Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin,
Illinois, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri,....). We get along fine, but it
does take some time for many of the NY transplants to adjust (and some
never do).

--
Shelly

Shelly

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Jan 17, 2016, 10:17:43 AM1/17/16
to
On 1/16/2016 1:17 PM, DoD wrote:
>
> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a
> politician, looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way
> to go about it...

I reacted in much the same way as Cindy -- and I already hated Cruz (and
Huckashmuck, and all the rest of the far-out religious right wing
nutcases.). You know, even being of the strong capitalist mentality that
I am, if given a choice of only between one of them or Fidel Castro, I
would lean strongly towards voting for Castro. That is how much I loathe
that group. The US is *NOT* a Christian country. It is a country where
the majority is Christian. *BIG DIFFERENCE!*

You know, David, that just because you might be a little paranoid does
not mean you are not under attack.

--
Shelly

Shelly

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Jan 17, 2016, 12:23:34 PM1/17/16
to
On 1/17/2016 10:22 AM, DoD wrote:
>
>
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:8e0428b8-48aa-4866...@googlegroups.com...
>
>>> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a
>>> politician,
>>
>> LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular
>> politician, and my reason was that people who have seen him on the
>> campaign trail (and these were ostensibly his supporters) have stated
>> that in his single-minded determination to win, he has demonstrated
>> ruthlessness and lacks even the smallest amount of empathy for other
>> people. People who have seen him on the campaign trail have actually
>> used the word "evil" to describe him. Except for Trump, I haven't seen
>> that adjective applied to any of the other Republican candidates. And
>> I also want to see a moderate and not a crazy evangelical in the White
>> House. So, I really wasn't looking for an excuse to "hate" him. I
>> already had plenty of legitimate reasons.
> ----------------------------
> I don't like him either.... I agreed with Shel that the only Republican
> I can stomach to vote for is Kasich. But is it really necessary to look
> for antisemitism to add to it? If Hillary said she had
> New York values, would you have thought she meant had Jewish values? I
> am guessing not

It wasn't the "New York values" that set her (and me and many others)
off. It was the "money" comment because is what the anti-Semites do
when they target the Jews. And, yes, if she had said the exact same
thing it would have been the same.

> ----------------------------
>
>> And FTR, I am not the only person to see his remarks as a slap at
>> Jews. Since my post, at least two mainstream columnists have made >the
>> same observations. The only thing that was missing from his money and
>> media comment was a reference to who controls >Hollywood.
>
> The only person I heard make that connection outside of you is Geraldo
> Rivera, but he admitted, that he didn't like the
> guy to begin with.... Again if you didn't like the guy to begin with it
> is pretty easy to assume the worse of his comment.

Other posts here have pointed to others as well.

>
>>> looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way to go
>>> about it... Ummmm, I guess whoever coined the term "Empire State" was
>>> really thinking about Jews when they first used that term..
>>
>> Don't be ridiculous. And I resent your mockery. Just remember this
>> exchange the next time you want to complain that I am attacking you on
>> this forum.
>
> I wasn't really mocking... Just trying to make a point.... NY is full of
> media and money... I don't make the connection to Jews

As good as you -- and you ARE a good man -- you are NOT Jewish. We are
telling you the JEWISH reaction to those comments. Accept that. A
classic example is how one black man may call another the "n" word and
no offense is taken. But let a white man say it and it is a whole
different story.

> for that.... I make the connection that NY is one of the oldest cities
> and that is just the way it is...
>
>>> FWIW, my own opinion is he used it generically like I would the left
>>> coast,
>>> or as people in New York would say I live in fly over country...
>>
>> Then you could have started your post right there and expressed your
>> opinion without being rude and sarcastic.
>
> I was being sarcastic.... Probably because to me it seems far fetched
> that someone that is so pro Israel would

One is divorced from the other. Israel is the US's closest ally behind
Britain and Canada. It is our only real ally in the mideast. He realizes
that because despite all else he is not stupid. Jews in the US, on the
other hand, well perhaps "some of his best friends are Jewish".

> make an anti semitic statement.... especially because NY is full of
> money and media and that is a fact
> ..... Why would he do such a thing and why would you automatically
> equate that money and media to Jews? I certainly
> didn't get that impression when I visited there...

When did you visit "Hymietown"?

>>> I had
>>> the opportunity to go to New York not long ago and met some of the
>>> people.... It was apparent **right away** that people from there look
>>> down
>>> on
>>> us midwesterners like we are cow-dung...
>>
>> And that may very well be true. Apparently, a lot of the people who
>> live in New York City hold similar negative views of those of use who
>> live in Western New York. My sister's ex-fiance's family once called
>> her a "hick."
>
> It does seem that NYC people have an above thou attitude..... It is what
> it is... and when someone else has negative attitude toward
> NYCers, doesn't mean they harbor antisemitism.....

Correct. I share those views to a large extent. However, it is one thing
for a Jew to say something about NY and the Jews there and quite another
to make the same statement. Again, as nice a person as you are, you are
not Jewish and so don't understand the slanderous remarks as well as we
do who have had to hear them our whole lives.

> Hillary supposedly
> called Dick Morris a dirty Jew or something like that....Seems
> more antisemitic than someone talking about NYC values.. It goes right
> back to my original point... If you are prone to have a favorable view
> of someone, you can dismiss or excuse what they do, but if you don't
> like someone from the get go, it is easier to believe the worst about
> that person..
> That is all I was getting at.

I don't know anything about that "supposed" statement. Also I, for one,
don't back Hillary except against any Republican running not named
Kasich (or Paul). Even though that is what you are getting at, it
doesn't change the reaction from Jews to his statement.

--
Shelly

dave...@gmail.com

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Jan 17, 2016, 12:24:06 PM1/17/16
to
hello cindy stein, how are you/ i haven't seen or heard from you in quite awhile. i missed your posts on judaism. if you know who am i jut say yes
and that way I will know you know who I am. Take care, and hopefully I will hear from you later. Here is my email address if you want to write me personally dave6047 at atmc.net.






















































dave...@gmail.com

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Jan 17, 2016, 12:25:02 PM1/17/16
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i don't like cruz either. he panders to the religious right and i have heard he i ruthless as well. i agree with cindy s. on this. i however don't think he was referring to jews when he made that statement i think he was referring to liberals. he jut doesn't seem to be all that great of a guy.

regards,
stt

Beach Runner

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Jan 17, 2016, 1:43:26 PM1/17/16
to
As far as the Media, you can add the the Jerusalem Post.
And even the very right conservative National Review, started by William Buckley
called Cruz's comments anti Semitic

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/429860/ted-cruz-new-york-values-anti-semitic-jezebel
And the Jewish press
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/ted-cruzs-new-york-values-moment-could-cost-him/2016/01/15/

Now, I don't believe that Cruz is anti Israel and may not even be anti semitic,
but he was using anti semitism as a weapon. I wonder what 20th century
politician he might have learned that from?


mm

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Jan 17, 2016, 3:00:15 PM1/17/16
to
On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:49:41 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 9:25:02 AM UTC-8, dave...@gmail.com wrote:
........
>>
>> i don't like cruz either. he panders to the religious right and i have heard he i ruthless as well. i agree with cindy s. on this. i however don't think he was referring to jews when he made that statement i think he was referring to liberals.

Even though there are plenty of conservatives in the media, liberals
are associated in many minds with the media, but money is a lot more
associated with conservatives. They've got money and they want to
keep it.

>>he jut doesn't seem to be all that great of a guy.
>>
>> regards,
>> stt
>
>As far as the Media, you can add the the Jerusalem Post.
>And even the very right conservative National Review, started by William Buckley
>called Cruz's comments anti Semitic
>
>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/429860/ted-cruz-new-york-values-anti-semitic-jezebel

Did you read the article too quickly? It does NOT call the comments
anything. It just comments on another article in the feminist blog
Jezebel, apparently by someone named Rothkopf. Timpf doesn't give
her first name.

The NR article ends "Hm. Is she maybe — just maybe – reading just a
little too much into this? She doesn’t think so. In fact, she went so
far as to call his comments “FCC-condoned slurs.” Yes, she actually
said “slurs.” Of course she did! Because after all, just when I start
to think that people couldn’t possibly get any more ridiculous,
somebody always proves me wrong.l"
Well, sort of: "I believe in fairness, and so I cited the full
transcript above, rather than shape it to serve my point with cuts and
omissions. And for the record I don’t believe Senator Ted Cruz is an
anti-Semite. He’s a loyal friend of Israel and has enough Jewish
following to suggest he isn’t. But when he used the New York values
quote he did it in the very same vein as that character on the West
Wing, as a short form for people like me." That's very close.

But whether these two did or not, plenty of others though as Cindy
did.

"And the part that disturbed me the most was not so much what Cruz
said, but the laughter and the applause of the audience. As in, “But I
promise you, in the state of South Carolina, they do. (Applause)”

What can I tell you, as a New York Jew, when people down in South
Carolina laugh at and applaud an insult at my expense — I get
nervous." So whether Cruz is antisemitic or not, he's promoting it,
because he's up there like a leader and some really support him and
he's said such a thing. Whether Dod gets it or not, plenty of the
people in SCarolina do.




"And his [Trump's] explanation [for expressing liberal views in an
interview with Tim Russert "not too many years ago] — he said, “look,
I’m from New York, that’s what we believe in New York. Those aren’t
Iowa values, but this is what we believe in New York.”"

Cruz's problem is that he hasnt' noticed Trump thinks he's the center
of the universe, so of course Trump thinks anything he thinks is "what
we believe in New York".

>Now, I don't believe that Cruz is anti Israel and may not even be anti semitic,
>but he was using anti semitism as a weapon. I wonder what 20th century
>politician he might have learned that from?

Nixon?

Off topic items:
From this article, from a transcript of what Crus said: "my friend
Donald has taken to it as (ph) advance playing Bruce Springsteen’s
“Born in the USA,”" What does "(ph)" mean?
>
As an aside, the woman asking the question was "Host Maria Bartiromo".
I don't know what that means but the Italians have so many good
surnames, like the Sephardim. And btw, Italians in NYC and NYS tend
to be Republicans. I've posted here before about how, in the
goverrnor's race between Lou Lehrman and Mario Cuomo, the Jews voted
for the Italian because he was liberal and the Italians voted for the
Jew because he was conservative. Cuomo squeaked to a victory.

Cruz ended saying "And — and I guess I can — can frame it another way.
Not a lot of conservatives come out of Manhattan. I’m just saying."
And Trump rebutted about William F. Buckley "and others", and Cruz let
that die, which was a shame. Because Cruz was trying to make fun of,
rather than whine about, Trump's stupid insulting statement that "not
a lot of evangelicals come out of Cuba" which might be true, but has
nothing to with Cruz, whose father became evan. when Cruz was little,
and Cruz got it from him. So Trump is insinuating that Cruz is
insincere, just because he was born in Cuba, no it was Canada.
Basically another one of Trump's lies, though this is from the 25% of
his lies where he doesn't say anything literally false. I would not
allow my children to play with his children.

Yisroel Markov

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Jan 19, 2016, 12:20:38 PM1/19/16
to
On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 05:02:38 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:

>On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-5, DoD wrote:

[snip]

>> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a politician,
>
>LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular politician,

You do realize that since that is so, you are predisposed to interpret
everything he says unfavorably.

I invite all those who dislike all likely candidates from the
mainstream parties to join me in voting for Gary Johnson. And as
usual, I will try to avoid discussing poltics here. There are problems
which are both more relevant to us and on which we have more
influence. A handful of voters on SCJM counts for about as much as a
Powerball ticket :-)

[snip]

cindys

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Jan 19, 2016, 1:09:56 PM1/19/16
to
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 12:20:38 PM UTC-5, Yisroel Markov wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 05:02:38 +0000 (UTC), cindys
> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>
> >On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-5, DoD wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a politician,
> >
> >LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular politician,
>
> You do realize that since that is so, you are predisposed to interpret
> everything he says unfavorably.
-----
I realize no such thing. I actually agree with this man on a number of his positions, beginning with his positions about Obama's overuse of executive orders,that it was wrong to lift the sanctions on Iran, and gun control (my husband are I thinking about joining the NRA just as a matter of principle). As I stated in another post, his remarks about New York values took me completely by surprise, and I stand by my position that they were a code word for liberal Jews.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Shelly

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Jan 19, 2016, 2:04:08 PM1/19/16
to
On 1/19/2016 12:26 PM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 05:02:38 +0000 (UTC), cindys
> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>
>> On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-5, DoD wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a politician,
>>
>> LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular politician,
>
> You do realize that since that is so, you are predisposed to interpret
> everything he says unfavorably.
>
> I invite all those who dislike all likely candidates from the
> mainstream parties to join me in voting for Gary Johnson. And as
> usual, I will try to avoid discussing poltics here. There are problems
> which are both more relevant to us and on which we have more
> influence. A handful of voters on SCJM counts for about as much as a
> Powerball ticket :-)
>
> [snip]
>

Who is Gary Johnson?

--
Shelly

DoD

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Jan 19, 2016, 2:18:49 PM1/19/16
to


"Shelly" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
news:n7g6p2$kqc$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 1/16/2016 1:17 PM, DoD wrote:
>>
>> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a
>> politician, looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way
>> to go about it...
>
> I reacted in much the same way as Cindy -- and I already hated Cruz

It would be much more convincing if you said you DIDN'T already hate
Cruz....

Once you hate someone, it is easier to believe bad things about that person
or in this instance, believe his words mean something more than what they
probably did.

Giorgies E Kepipesiom

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Jan 19, 2016, 3:13:28 PM1/19/16
to
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:04:08 PM UTC-5, shel...@thevillages.net wrote:>

> Who is Gary Johnson?

Gary Earl Johnson is an American businessman and politician. He served as the 29th Governor of New Mexico from 1995 to 2003, as a member of the Republican Party, and was the Libertarian Party nominee for President of the United States in the 2012 election.[1] He is a candidate for the Libertarian Party presidential nomination in the 2016 election.

See article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Johnson

GEK
always happy to help

DoD

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Jan 19, 2016, 3:22:51 PM1/19/16
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"Shelly" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
news:n7g4on$cpb$1...@dont-email.me...
The Villages is definitely a special place... It surprises me not in the
least that people from all over
get along fine there.. It is definitely a one of a kind gem.

DoD

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Jan 19, 2016, 3:24:01 PM1/19/16
to


"Shelly" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
news:n7gh5t$tj0$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 1/17/2016 10:22 AM, DoD wrote:

> It wasn't the "New York values" that set her (and me and many others) off.
> It was the "money" comment because is what the anti-Semites do when they
> target the Jews. And, yes, if she had said the exact same thing it would
> have been the same.

Isn't that presupposing that Cruz is an antisemite?


>>> And FTR, I am not the only person to see his remarks as a slap at
>>> Jews. Since my post, at least two mainstream columnists have made >the
>>> same observations. The only thing that was missing from his money and
>>> media comment was a reference to who controls >Hollywood.
>>
>> The only person I heard make that connection outside of you is Geraldo
>> Rivera, but he admitted, that he didn't like the
>> guy to begin with.... Again if you didn't like the guy to begin with it
>> is pretty easy to assume the worse of his comment.
>
> Other posts here have pointed to others as well.

Most likely by people that don't like him. Others including Jews like Mark
Levin have
told *Trump* to knock it off, so it doesn't appear like he is too upset
about it.

>>>> looking for code words to accuse of anti-semtism is one way to go
>>>> about it... Ummmm, I guess whoever coined the term "Empire State" was
>>>> really thinking about Jews when they first used that term..
>>>
>>> Don't be ridiculous. And I resent your mockery. Just remember this
>>> exchange the next time you want to complain that I am attacking you on
>>> this forum.
>>
>> I wasn't really mocking... Just trying to make a point.... NY is full of
>> media and money... I don't make the connection to Jews
>
> As good as you -- and you ARE a good man -- you are NOT Jewish. We are
> telling you the JEWISH reaction to those comments.

Fair point...

>Accept that. A classic example is how one black man may call another the
>"n" word and no offense is taken. But let a white man say it and it is a
>whole different story.

I just want to add something here.... Cruz didn't say the K word or nothing
close to it... People can go overboard with putting bad intentions on people
with
dog whistles or code words.... Check out this nut....

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/msnbcs-melissa-harris-perry-dont-say-hard-worker-because-its-offensive-to-slaves/

Look at the guys reaction... He was in disbelief..... I mean, hard worker?
See anyone can make up anything to be offended by
and it cheapens when something actually deserves the real criticism... It
would seem to me that we are judging someone who
really has no history of antisemitism to being an antisemite, based of us
not liking his politics..

>> I was being sarcastic.... Probably because to me it seems far fetched
>> that someone that is so pro Israel would
>
> One is divorced from the other. Israel is the US's closest ally behind
> Britain and Canada. It is our only real ally in the mideast. He realizes
> that because despite all else he is not stupid.

That doesn't stop Obama from being not so nice towards Israel?

>Jews in the US, on the other hand, well perhaps "some of his best friends
>are Jewish".

Again, you are presupposing he has ill feelings towards Jews...

> make an anti semitic statement.... especially because NY is full of
>> money and media and that is a fact
>> ..... Why would he do such a thing and why would you automatically
>> equate that money and media to Jews? I certainly
>> didn't get that impression when I visited there...
>
> When did you visit "Hymietown"?

If you mean New York, I went there in September.... I told about that here
and told you
back in the summer...


> Correct. I share those views to a large extent. However, it is one thing
> for a Jew to say something about NY and the Jews there and quite another
> to make the same statement. Again, as nice a person as you are, you are
> not Jewish and so don't understand the slanderous remarks as well as we do
> who have had to hear them our whole lives.

But there are people that are Jewish that didn't take his remarks that
way.... My guess
it is because they are more in tune with his politics and and not looking
for a way to
pile on.... I would bet 100 dollars we would not be having this conversation
if Hillary
said the same thing..




Beach Runner

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Jan 19, 2016, 3:25:18 PM1/19/16
to
I have an apology to make to the group. Generally I believe what is published
in the New York Times as paper of record. While I still dispise Ted Cruz,
the story is not completely accurate.

I quote an email from my son...

While I am no fan of Ted Cruz, only third worst in my book to Trump and Carson, the fact checking of Brooks statements leave his article questionable, which is surprising considering it was published in the NY Times. Greg Abbot, then Texas attorney general now governor was the one responsible, with Cruz's limited involvement. In fact supreme court justice Sandra Day O'Connor was more directly involved after putting out a public opinion statement that further delayed his case. I certainly agree its a case of injustice, but under the current legal system, it was Haley's defending attorney's responsibility to represent the case correctly. There's a very good episode of John Oliver where he addresses this problem.


cindys

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Jan 19, 2016, 6:15:07 PM1/19/16
to
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:24:01 PM UTC-5, DoD wrote:
> "Shelly" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
> news:n7gh5t$tj0$1...@dont-email.me...
> > On 1/17/2016 10:22 AM, DoD wrote:
>
> > It wasn't the "New York values" that set her (and me and many others) off.
> > It was the "money" comment because is what the anti-Semites do when they
> > target the Jews. And, yes, if she had said the exact same thing it would
> > have been the same.
>
> Isn't that presupposing that Cruz is an antisemite?
snip
--------
I don't think it presupposes anything. Look David, there are certain buzzwords that send up red flags for Jews. Some of these words are "bankers, media, and Hollywood" when taken together. In general, I think most evangelicals dislike Jews because they're all ticked off that Jews refuse to accept Jesus. That said, I wasn't sitting around wondering to myself if Ted Cruz was any more or less antisemitic than the rest of them. But I was genuinely taken aback by his New York values remark, and I do think the remark was intended to be a buzzword for the benefit of some of his "constituents."

Once upon a time, I was at a party, and I started talking to some guy, a total stranger. I had no preconceived opinions about this guy at all. Then, he started talking about the Bilderberg Group and Rothschild and world domination conspiracy theories, and to me, those are other buzzwords for the antisemitic "Jewish plot to control the world."

And at the risk of being even more tangential....

I know another woman who is the mother of one of my younger son's friends. I invited her over for dinner a couple of times. She was very pro-Israel. Then, before you know it, she started spouting world domination conspiracy theories and then one day she was complaining because her messianic "Jewish" friends were being rejected by traditional Jews, and then bada-bi-bada-bom, out comes the line that as far as she is concerned, no Jew can be complete until he/she has found salvation through Jesus.

And as long as we're on the subject of "Well, so-and-so can't be an antisemite because he is so supportive of Israel...": In general, I have a huge problem with evangelicals for a variety of reasons. Yes, they are pro-Israel, but they are not pro-Jewish (as we've discussed many times on this forum). In general, I don't really care if someone is privately antisemitic, as long as he doesn't act on it. Richard Nixon was apparently very antisemitic, but he put his personal feelings aside and was really good for Israel.

I believe that a President Cruz would be good for Israel, but being good for Israel does not preclude him from being antisemitic (and it doesn't enamor me to his other positions). Do I think Cruz likes Jews? No, I don't. That said, I don't think a lot of the other candidates necessarily like Jews either. And I generally don't have a problem with that, as long as they're pro-Israel, even if only for pragmatic reasons, but to me, the "New York values" remark was really offensive, and I still maintain it was a buzzword for liberal Jews.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Yisroel Markov

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Jan 19, 2016, 6:36:32 PM1/19/16
to
On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 18:16:13 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:

>On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 12:20:38 PM UTC-5, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 05:02:38 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>>
>> >On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-5, DoD wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >> LOL....I guess if you are looking for a reason to be hating on a politician,
>> >
>> >LOL. Ha! Ha! Ha! I already had a reason to be hating this particular politician,
>>
>> You do realize that since that is so, you are predisposed to interpret
>> everything he says unfavorably.
>-----
>I realize no such thing.

Really? That's surprising. Aren't you human?

>I actually agree with this man on a number of his positions, beginning with his positions about Obama's overuse of executive orders,that it was wrong to lift the sanctions on Iran, and gun control (my husband are I thinking about joining the NRA just as a matter of principle).

And thereby cement the downstaters' view of yourselves as hicks? :-)

>As I stated in another post, his remarks about New York values took me completely by surprise, and I stand by my position that they were a code word for liberal Jews.

Sure, but before and despite all that, you said you've already had a
reason to hate him. With us humans, emotions color our perceptions;
only psychopaths are immune. Note that I did not say that emotions
rule; only color. All of us who try to view the world rationally have
to consciously fight our biases every day. That's just life.

BTW, as far as I can see, Cruz has refused to clarify what he meant.
This tells me that he's doing a Trump thing (getting himself talked
about no matter the modality) and an Obama thing (letting people
interpret/fill in the blanks) at once.

Shelly

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Jan 19, 2016, 7:20:35 PM1/19/16
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Well, considering where I live, and who the Republicans will likely
nomimate, I simply can't afford to waste my vote.

--
Shelly

Shelly

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Jan 19, 2016, 8:14:00 PM1/19/16
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You would lose that bet.

--
Shelly

Shelly

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Jan 19, 2016, 8:15:20 PM1/19/16
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On 1/19/2016 6:42 PM, Yisroel Markov wrote:

> Sure, but before and despite all that, you said you've already had a
> reason to hate him. With us humans, emotions color our perceptions;
> only psychopaths are immune. Note that I did not say that emotions
> rule; only color. All of us who try to view the world rationally have
> to consciously fight our biases every day. That's just life.

But, Yisroel, David with his LOL is saying that we see it that way
BECAUSE we already hate him, not that we are more likely to see it that
way because we hate him. There is a big difference between those two and
also is why he would lose his bet that we wouldn't see it that way if
Hillary had said it.

He is talking cause and effect, not shading of perceptions.

--
Shelly

mm

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Jan 19, 2016, 8:23:38 PM1/19/16
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On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:30:20 +0000 (UTC), "DoD"
<danski...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Shelly" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
>news:n7gh5t$tj0$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 1/17/2016 10:22 AM, DoD wrote:
>
>> It wasn't the "New York values" that set her (and me and many others) off.
>> It was the "money" comment because is what the anti-Semites do when they
>> target the Jews. And, yes, if she had said the exact same thing it would
>> have been the same.
>
>Isn't that presupposing that Cruz is an antisemite?

You should read my first post in the thread "Ted Cruz and his views".
It's probably much closer to the real situation.

mm

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Jan 19, 2016, 8:26:30 PM1/19/16
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I've looked again at your other posts in this thread, and I don't know
what you're talking about. Responsible for what?

Yisroel Markov

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Jan 20, 2016, 8:07:02 PM1/20/16
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I'm not talking to David in this thread.

Beach Runner

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Jan 20, 2016, 8:08:11 PM1/20/16
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To answer your question, it was this posting. And, I found it wssn't 100% accurate, but still revealing about Cruz that he acted in such a way.
The primary responsibility should have been the failure of the defense attorney
in the case, but it sure shows a lot about Cruz. But out of honesty I had to add that the information was slanted.

He probably will win the Iowa primary, and that's a very sad thing about the
Republican Party in Iowa.

In 1997, Michael Wayne Haley was arrested after stealing a calculator from Walmart. This was a crime that merited a maximum two-year prison term. But prosecutors incorrectly applied a habitual offender law. Neither the judge nor the defense lawyer caught the error and Haley was sentenced to 16 years.

Eventually, the mistake came to light and Haley tried to fix it. Ted Cruz was solicitor general of Texas at the time. Instead of just letting Haley go for time served, Cruz took the case to the Supreme Court to keep Haley in prison for the full 16 years.

The case reveals something interesting about Cruz's character. Ted Cruz is now running strongly among evangelical voters, especially in Iowa. But in his career and public presentation Cruz is a stranger to most of what would generally be considered the Christian virtues: humility, mercy, compassion and grace. Cruz's behavior in the Haley case is almost the dictionary definition of pharisaism: an overzealous application of the letter of the law in a way that violates the spirit of the law, as well as fairness and mercy.


Kudos to David Brooks for bringing it to light:

In the end, Haley was released after serving six years. During the Supreme Court hearing, Justice Anthony Kennedy--left incredulous by Cruz's position--asked him: "Is there some rule that you can't confess error in your state?"

Brooks's article is titled "The Brutalism of Ted Cruz." An apt description indeed. Would hearing this story undercut Cruz's support among Republican primary voters? I really don't know. I do know that a person who would fight such a case all the way to the Supreme Court is lacking something very basic--something important not only for Christians, but for any of us, and certainly for anyone seeking to become the most powerful individual in the world. That thing is judgment.

Yisroel Markov

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Jan 20, 2016, 8:08:55 PM1/20/16
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The liberal, you mean? Or the Christian zealot? :-)

>I simply can't afford to waste my vote.

So it will be another "Vote for the crook. It's important" event.
(Unless Sanders beats Clinton, of course. Then it will be... what?)

Yisroel Markov

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Jan 21, 2016, 11:28:23 AM1/21/16
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On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 01:14:32 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 5:26:30 PM UTC-8, googy wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:31:37 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>> <lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> >I quote an email from my son...
>> >
>> >While I am no fan of Ted Cruz, only third worst in my book to Trump and Carson, the fact checking of Brooks statements leave his article questionable, which is surprising considering it was published in the NY Times. Greg Abbot, then Texas attorney general now governor was the one responsible, with Cruz's limited involvement. In fact supreme court justice Sandra Day O'Connor was more directly involved after putting out a public opinion statement that further delayed his case. I certainly agree its a case of injustice, but under the current legal system, it was Haley's defending attorney's responsibility to represent the case correctly. There's a very good episode of John Oliver where he addresses this problem.
>> >
>> I've looked again at your other posts in this thread, and I don't know
>> what you're talking about. Responsible for what?
>
>To answer your question, it was this posting. And, I found it wssn't 100% accurate, but still revealing about Cruz that he acted in such a way.
>The primary responsibility should have been the failure of the defense attorney
>in the case, but it sure shows a lot about Cruz. But out of honesty I had to add that the information was slanted.
>
>He probably will win the Iowa primary, and that's a very sad thing about the
>Republican Party in Iowa.
>
> In 1997, Michael Wayne Haley was arrested after stealing a calculator from Walmart. This was a crime that merited a maximum two-year prison term. But prosecutors incorrectly applied a habitual offender law. Neither the judge nor the defense lawyer caught the error and Haley was sentenced to 16 years.
>
> Eventually, the mistake came to light and Haley tried to fix it. Ted Cruz was solicitor general of Texas at the time. Instead of just letting Haley go for time served, Cruz took the case to the Supreme Court to keep Haley in prison for the full 16 years.
>
> The case reveals something interesting about Cruz's character. Ted Cruz is now running strongly among evangelical voters, especially in Iowa. But in his career and public presentation Cruz is a stranger to most of what would generally be considered the Christian virtues: humility, mercy, compassion and grace. Cruz's behavior in the Haley case is almost the dictionary definition of pharisaism: an overzealous application of the letter of the law in a way that violates the spirit of the law, as well as fairness and mercy.
>
>
>Kudos to David Brooks for bringing it to light:
>
>In the end, Haley was released after serving six years. During the Supreme Court hearing, Justice Anthony Kennedy--left incredulous by Cruz's position--asked him: "Is there some rule that you can't confess error in your state?"
>
>Brooks's article is titled "The Brutalism of Ted Cruz." An apt description indeed. Would hearing this story undercut Cruz's support among Republican primary voters? I really don't know. I do know that a person who would fight such a case all the way to the Supreme Court is lacking something very basic--something important not only for Christians, but for any of us, and certainly for anyone seeking to become the most powerful individual in the world. That thing is judgment.

Looking at the facts, I have to agree with your son: "...the fact
checking of Brooks statements leave his article questionable, which is
surprising considering it was published in the NY Times." Of course,
those of us who are paying attention are not surprised at all. Then
again, this was an opinion piece.

But the reason I agree is different. First, the case was appealed by
the defendant; therefore, the state (represented by Cruz) did not
really have an option not to "fight such a case all the way to the
Supreme Court" - defaulting is not a good practice. Second, the
defendant was sentenced under a 3-strike law and was trying to get off
on a technicality. (See
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/541/386.html for details.)
Whatever the responsibility of the defense attorney, Cruz did nothing
but defend his state's application of its democratically adopted law
(on appeal, which is precisely about fixing lower court's mistakes),
and the Supreme Court agreed with him 6-3. IMHO that particular law is
counterproductive, but that's not Cruz's problem. He did his job;
Brooks did his by penning a smear.

If you think that Cruz should've pulled a Holder and refused to defend
his state's law, which he had sworn to uphold (like Holder did with
the Defense of Marriage Act), that's a legitimate opinion, but I don't
see how not doing so implicates Cruz's Christian virtues or makes him
brutal.

Shelly

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Jan 21, 2016, 1:32:24 PM1/21/16
to
On 1/20/2016 8:15 PM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:26:53 +0000 (UTC), Shelly
> <shel...@thevillages.net> said:
>
>> On 1/19/2016 3:19 PM, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:04:08 PM UTC-5, shel...@thevillages.net wrote:>
>>>
>>>> Who is Gary Johnson?
>>>
>>> Gary Earl Johnson is an American businessman and politician. He served as the 29th Governor of New Mexico from 1995 to 2003, as a member of the Republican Party, and was the Libertarian Party nominee for President of the United States in the 2012 election.[1] He is a candidate for the Libertarian Party presidential nomination in the 2016 election.
>>>
>>> See article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Johnson
>>>
>>> GEK
>>> always happy to help
>>
>> Well, considering where I live, and who the Republicans will likely
>> nomimate,
>
> The liberal, you mean? Or the Christian zealot? :-)
>
>> I simply can't afford to waste my vote.
>
> So it will be another "Vote for the crook. It's important" event.
> (Unless Sanders beats Clinton, of course. Then it will be... what?)

Yes. I would much rather the crook as the far lesser of the two evils.
Most politicians are, after all IMO, little more than well dressed snake
oil salesmen. Yes, I would choose them of over witch hunters. I can
afford money siphoned off much better than religion being forced down my
throat and a destruction of the Bill of Rights. You answer of a
"symbolic statement" wasted vote is, to me, little more that being an
ostrich. You can afford to do that because you live in Massachusetts
which will go Democrat no matter what you do. I can't.

--
Shelly

Shelly

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Jan 21, 2016, 1:50:17 PM1/21/16
to
On 1/20/2016 8:13 PM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 01:21:39 +0000 (UTC), Shelly
> <shel...@thevillages.net> said:
>
>> On 1/19/2016 6:42 PM, Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>
>>> Sure, but before and despite all that, you said you've already had a
>>> reason to hate him. With us humans, emotions color our perceptions;
>>> only psychopaths are immune. Note that I did not say that emotions
>>> rule; only color. All of us who try to view the world rationally have
>>> to consciously fight our biases every day. That's just life.
>>
>> But, Yisroel, David with his LOL is saying that we see it that way
>> BECAUSE we already hate him, not that we are more likely to see it that
>> way because we hate him. There is a big difference between those two and
>> also is why he would lose his bet that we wouldn't see it that way if
>> Hillary had said it.
>>
>> He is talking cause and effect, not shading of perceptions.
>
> I'm not talking to David in this thread.

....but that is what started this who thing.

--
Shelly

DoD

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Jan 21, 2016, 5:47:33 PM1/21/16
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"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:c814136d-b501-4ddf...@googlegroups.com...
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:24:01 PM UTC-5, DoD wrote:
>> "Shelly" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
>> news:n7gh5t$tj0$1...@dont-email.me...
>> > On 1/17/2016 10:22 AM, DoD wrote:
>>
>> > It wasn't the "New York values" that set her (and me and many others)
>> > off.
>> > It was the "money" comment because is what the anti-Semites do when
>> > they
>> > target the Jews. And, yes, if she had said the exact same thing it
>> > would
>> > have been the same.
>>
>> Isn't that presupposing that Cruz is an antisemite?
> snip
> --------
> I don't think it presupposes anything. Look David, there are certain
> buzzwords that send up red flags for Jews. Some of these words are
> "bankers, media, and Hollywood" when taken together. In general, I think
> most evangelicals dislike Jews because they're all ticked off that Jews
> refuse to accept Jesus. That said, I wasn't sitting around wondering to
> myself if Ted Cruz was any more or less antisemitic than the rest of them.
> But I was genuinely taken aback by his New York values remark, and I do
> think the remark was intended to be a buzzword for the benefit of some of
> his "constituents."
-----------------------------------------------------------
If he used to words as buzzwords to his constituents (presumably you mean
anti-Jewish constituents) then
that would be anti-semitic full stop.... So that does presuppose he is
anti-semitic.... Otherwise he was just saying those
things to get under the skin of liberals and it was only coincidence that
money and media are NY values which just happen to be Jewish stereotypes.
------------------------------------------------------------

> Once upon a time, I was at a party, and I started talking to some guy, a
> total stranger. I had no preconceived opinions about this guy at all.
> Then, he started talking about the Bilderberg Group and Rothschild and
> world domination conspiracy theories, and to me, those are other buzzwords
> for the antisemitic "Jewish plot to control the world."
------------------------------------------------
Did you tell her she was full of bull dung?
-------------------------------------------------


> And at the risk of being even more tangential....
>
> I know another woman who is the mother of one of my younger son's friends.
> I invited her over for dinner a couple of times. She was very pro-Israel.
> Then, before you know it, she started spouting world domination conspiracy
> theories and then one day she was complaining because her messianic
> "Jewish" friends were being rejected by traditional Jews, and then
> bada-bi-bada-bom, out comes the line that as far as she is concerned, no
> Jew can be complete until he/she has found salvation through Jesus.
-------------------------------------------------
What did you say to this woman?
--------------------------------------------------

> And as long as we're on the subject of "Well, so-and-so can't be an
> antisemite because he is so supportive of Israel...": In general, I have a
> huge problem with evangelicals for a variety of reasons. Yes, they are
> pro-Israel, but they are not pro-Jewish (as we've discussed many times on
> this forum). In general, I don't really care if someone is privately
> antisemitic, as long as he doesn't act on it. Richard Nixon was apparently
> very antisemitic, but he put his personal feelings aside and was really
> good for Israel.
>
> I believe that a President Cruz would be good for Israel, but being good
> for Israel does not preclude him from being antisemitic (and it doesn't
> enamor me to his other positions). Do I think Cruz likes Jews? No, I
> don't.
-----------------------------------------------------
My guess is that he doesn't like liberals..... Now you can do the math on
how many Jews he would get along with.... IOWs I don't
think the Jewishness of say Charles Krauthammer or Jonah Goldberg would be
an issue for someone like him... But someone like
Paul Krugman to Thomas Friedman, that maybe another story...
---------------------------------------------------------

That said, I don't think a lot of the other candidates necessarily like Jews
either. And I generally don't have a problem with that, as long as they're
pro-Israel, even if only for pragmatic reasons, but to me, the "New York
values" remark was really offensive, and I still maintain it was a buzzword
for liberal Jews.
--------------------------

I still think it was a buzzword for liberals in general.

DoD

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Jan 21, 2016, 5:48:16 PM1/21/16