.....prayer in a public place

[mm]

I tuned in in the middle of a sentence, but on C-Span Radio I heard
Mrs. Ted Cruz saying ".....prayer in a public place, but respectfully
and without hurting anyone". I'd listened earlier and she was talking
about changes her husband would make. I don't know what's different
about what she said -- we already have prayers in public places -- and
I wish I'd heard what she said just before, since it woudl be a
change, I'm fairly sure she means a change I won't like, like
government sponsored sectarian prayer.

I looked on the C-span website but a) I don't think it keeps archives
of everything it broadcasts, and b) even when it does, it seems harder
to find them than with other, more organized sites. And I didn't
find this, even though it was, I think from 1 to 2. If I didn't know
it was she speaking, I woudln't have been able to find out. C-span
radio used to almost all the time have the same as one of the C-span
tv networks, but c) I don't think that's true anymore, d) it's just
about as hard to find out what has recently or ever been on any of the
C-span tv stations.


She also said he would move the US embassy to Jerusalem on day 1.

I think this comes from the Democratic and Republican Campaign
Songbook that each candidate gets a copy of so they can lead
hootenannies, etc. Not that I object to her saying it, just that they
all say this.


Also heard on the news today that Ben Cardin was endorsing Trump.
What!! I thought. But they had said Ben Carson.

[Beach Runner]

How many thousands of years of experience does it take to show that perhaps
we might be suspicious of Christians?

Sure, there have been good times, these are as good as they get, but don't think
if the economy tanks or disaster strikes things wouldn't go 180 in an instant.

[Beach Runner]

Here's a Washington Post Article about how Christian Teachers and associations
are working on bring Jesus in the Public Schools. Yechhh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/these-christian-teachers-want-to-bring-jesus-into-public-schools--legally/2016/03/12/bfd95986-dfd3-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html?tid=pm_local_pop_b

[Yisroel Markov]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowh...@gmail.com> said:

[snip]

>How many thousands of years of experience does it take to show that perhaps
>we might be suspicious of Christians?
>
>Sure, there have been good times, these are as good as they get, but don't think
>if the economy tanks or disaster strikes things wouldn't go 180 in an instant.

If so, how much sense does it make to pre-emptively antagonize one's
Christian bandmates by insisting that they modify their repertoire to
avoid offending you? Or is it a case of "they'll kill us anyway, let's
at least have some fun first"?
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand

[mm]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:16:40 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
><lowh...@gmail.com> said:
>
>[snip]
>
>>How many thousands of years of experience does it take to show that perhaps
>>we might be suspicious of Christians?
>>
>>Sure, there have been good times, these are as good as they get, but don't think
>>if the economy tanks or disaster strikes things wouldn't go 180 in an instant.
>
>If so, how much sense does it make to pre-emptively antagonize one's
>Christian bandmates by insisting that they modify their repertoire to
>avoid offending you? Or is it a case of "they'll kill us anyway, let's
>at least have some fun first"?

Interestingly, for 30, 40 years or more it was Madeleine Murray, an
atheist, and maybe some other non-Jews who were the plaintiffs in all
these suits. And there is still a lot of that. But I think a few
Jews have joined in in recent years. I can't remember details.

[Beach Runner]

Obviously, we disagree.

I disagree with a school, a community organization, or the like promoting one
religion. Having a holiday concert, like the organization did the year before
would have been appropriate. A Christmas Concert for a community organization
I believe is a violation of church and state. The same would have been true if it was a Purim festival.

A simple Hanukkah medley and rename of the concert flyers would have been fine.

What you call antagonize I call education.

[Yisroel Markov]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:32:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>Obviously, we disagree.

Indeed, we probably disagree on what constitutes promotion, and what
is tolerable and what's worth a fight.

>I disagree with a school, a community organization, or the like promoting one
>religion. Having a holiday concert, like the organization did the year before
>would have been appropriate. A Christmas Concert for a community organization
>I believe is a violation of church and state. The same would have been true if it was a Purim festival.

IIRC in your case the state was not involved at all.

>A simple Hanukkah medley and rename of the concert flyers would have been fine.
>
>What you call antagonize I call education.

The thing is, for these purposes it doesn't matter what you or I call
it. What matters is what the recipients of said "education" think it
is.

[Harry Weiss]

In this area there is a Jewish athiest (Michaewl Newdow)fighting
everything. He is against anythig Jewish or Xian,


--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com

[Beach Runner]

He doesn't seem to have evil intentions, he's against government promoted religion.


https://www.secular.org/bios/Michael_Newdow.html

[Harry Weiss]

Public candle lighting or eruvs do not affect anyone else, He fights them
on a regular basis,

[mm]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:58:56 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
<hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

>Beach Runner <lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 5:34:41 PM UTC-7, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>> > mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> > > On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:16:40 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>> > > <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > >On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>> > > ><lowh...@gmail.com> said:
>> > > >
>> > > >[snip]
>> > > >
>> > > >>How many thousands of years of experience does it take to show that perhaps
>> > > >>we might be suspicious of Christians?
>> > > >>
>> > > >>Sure, there have been good times, these are as good as they get, but don't think
>> > > >>if the economy tanks or disaster strikes things wouldn't go 180 in an instant.
>> > > >
>> > > >If so, how much sense does it make to pre-emptively antagonize one's
>> > > >Christian bandmates by insisting that they modify their repertoire to
>> > > >avoid offending you? Or is it a case of "they'll kill us anyway, let's
>> > > >at least have some fun first"?
>> >
>> > > Interestingly, for 30, 40 years or more it was Madeleine Murray, an
>> > > atheist, and maybe some other non-Jews who were the plaintiffs in all
>> > > these suits. And there is still a lot of that. But I think a few
>> > > Jews have joined in in recent years. I can't remember details.
>> >
>> > In this area there is a Jewish athiest (Michaewl Newdow)fighting

I never heard of him! At least not by name.

Ugh. "Newdow is an atheist and an ordained minister of the Universal
Life Church" From a "nominally Jewish family".

Still, he seems not to have gotten started on this until about 2000,
so the most important thing here is that *I'm not wrong*. ;-)

I remember him now. He was the non-custodial parent of a girl who was
expected, or under class pressure?, to say "under God" in public
school every day. Oy, he wasn't married to the mother, who wasn't a
Jew, and who tried to get the suit dismissed. He ended up losing in
2004 according to 5 members of the USSC because he didn't have
standing since he wasn't the custodial parent. 3 of them thought that
he still had standing but that he was wrong because the words didn't
endorse or establish religion. "Thus, according to the opinion, the
Pledge is a secular act rather than an act of indoctrination in
religion or expression of religious devotion." I think those 3 are
wrong. At least in this first case, he didn't go looking for the
case, it came to him, but I gather after that he went looking. Scalia
had recused himself after being asked after making a speech on the
topic.

>> > everything. He is against anythig Jewish or Xian,

>> > Harry J. Weiss

>
>> He doesn't seem to have evil intentions, he's against government promoted religion.
>
>> https://www.secular.org/bios/Michael_Newdow.html
>
>Public candle lighting or eruvs do not affect anyone else, He fights them
>on a regular basis,

Eruvs don't. People don't even know they are there. They don't
violate the 3-part test that the USSC has used, including no excessive
entanglement.

When they get rid of public Xmas trees, that will be the time to talk
about (Chanuka, I presume) candle lighting. I don't see them getting
rid of Xmas trees any time soon.

(In Indianapolis, where I lived in JHS and HS, in the very middle of
the city is the Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument, something like the
Washington Monument in DC but with a lot more decoration, and 284 feet
high. Every year the day after Thanksgiving, they light strings of
lights from the top to various points on the surrounding circle. It's
not made out of tree, but it's still an Xmas tree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldiers'_and_Sailors'_Monument_%28Indianapolis%29
"During the Christmas season the monument is decorated as an enormous
Christmas tree. This annual city tradition, which became known as the
"Circle of Lights", began in 1962. The tree lighting ceremony is held
the day after Thanksgiving. The decoration of the monument uses 4,784
lights and 52 strands of garland put in place by volunteers from the
local IBEW. More than 100,000 people attend the ceremony and the event
is televised to an estimated 50,000 households.[55]" Two pictures of
this at the bottom of the webpage.

They're not about to give this up.

My mother scratched her initials inside it around 1925, but I didn't
know that the one time I was inside, so I didn't look.

[Shelly]

Madeline Murray was a heroine. I was with her all the way. There is no
place for prayer in government buildings and public schools are
government institutions. Prayer/religion should be taught in the home
or in parochial schools that get no government money or in houses of
worship. I am for complete separation of church/synagogue/mosque and
state. Am I also "against anything Jewish or Xian" in your opinion?

BTW, being an atheist (which I am not) is not the same as being "against
anything Jewish or Xian".


--
Shelly

[Shelly]

I support his stance on restoring the old form of the pledge of
allegiance and removing the "under God". I always remain silent when it
comes to those words as I feel that their presence is a violation of the
separation of church and state.

What I don't understand is the reason for the Supreme Court's ruling
that he didn't have "prudential standing" to bring the suit? He is an
American citizen, is he not? As such, shouldn't that be sufficient
standing to bring the suit?


--
Shelly

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at 12:51:31 AM UTC, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>
> Public candle lighting or eruvs do not affect anyone else, He fights them
> on a regular basis,
>

There was public opposition amongst non-Jews to a proposed eruv in London.

The non-Jews felt it was cheating and not something the council (local authority)
should be helping with.

[Yisroel Markov]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:57:08 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner

<lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 5:34:41 PM UTC-7, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:16:40 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>> > <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>> > ><lowh...@gmail.com> said:
>> > >
>> > >[snip]
>> > >
>> > >>How many thousands of years of experience does it take to show that perhaps
>> > >>we might be suspicious of Christians?
>> > >>
>> > >>Sure, there have been good times, these are as good as they get, but don't think
>> > >>if the economy tanks or disaster strikes things wouldn't go 180 in an instant.
>> > >
>> > >If so, how much sense does it make to pre-emptively antagonize one's
>> > >Christian bandmates by insisting that they modify their repertoire to
>> > >avoid offending you? Or is it a case of "they'll kill us anyway, let's
>> > >at least have some fun first"?
>>
>> > Interestingly, for 30, 40 years or more it was Madeleine Murray, an
>> > atheist, and maybe some other non-Jews who were the plaintiffs in all
>> > these suits. And there is still a lot of that. But I think a few
>> > Jews have joined in in recent years. I can't remember details.
>>
>> In this area there is a Jewish athiest (Michaewl Newdow)fighting
>> everything. He is against anythig Jewish or Xian,

In public, you mean.

>> --
>> Harry J. Weiss
>> hjw...@panix.com
>
>He doesn't seem to have evil intentions, he's against government promoted religion.

Do you know what kind of intentions pave the road to hell?

[Herman Rubin]

On 2016-03-15, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:32:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
><lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>>Obviously, we disagree.

> Indeed, we probably disagree on what constitutes promotion, and what
> is tolerable and what's worth a fight.

>>I disagree with a school, a community organization, or the like promoting one
>>religion. Having a holiday concert, like the organization did the year before
>>would have been appropriate. A Christmas Concert for a community organization
>>I believe is a violation of church and state. The same would have been true if it was a Purim festival.

> IIRC in your case the state was not involved at all.

>>A simple Hanukkah medley and rename of the concert flyers would have been fine.

>>What you call antagonize I call education.

> The thing is, for these purposes it doesn't matter what you or I call
> it. What matters is what the recipients of said "education" think it
> is.

Actually, there is an imposition of what is sometimes recognized as
a religion, namely, Secular Humanism, which has dominated education
for the last roughhly 80 years. It is what forced age grouping,
and dumbed down the curriculum for what the low end could pass.
This is ONE of the reasons why children in the low socioeconomic
classes do not achieve; their education is reduced to the level
those unwilling or unable to learn in thir classes can handle.
Much of their philosophy has now been enacted into law, which
makes it difficult for anyone even with average ability to
achieve what can be achieved. No child left behind means no
child can get ahead, and schools and teachers are rated on how
their students do on standardized exams of details, not taking
into account the willingness and abiliities of the students.



--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

[Herman Rubin]

I definitely go along with that. I would add that I do not like the
idea of stating as a fact the writings or lore of any group without
adequate reasons for accepting that. This does not mean that a
comparative religion course taught from a non-religious viewpoint,
using our knowledge of the universe, is impossible. Note that I
wrote "non-religious" not "anti-religious".


> https://www.secular.org/bios/Michael_Newdow.html

[Herman Rubin]

I disagree about public candle lighting. If the wires, etc., used to
establish an eruv do not cause any problems, I will go along with that.

[Shelly]

Not that I disagree with much of what you have to say, but just what has
this speech of yours have to do with prayer in a public schools?


--
Shelly

[Herman Rubin]

On 2016-03-16, mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2016 00:58:56 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
><hjw...@panix.com> wrote:

>>Beach Runner <lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 5:34:41 PM UTC-7, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>>> > mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> > > On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:16:40 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>> > > <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>>> > > >On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>>> > > ><lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>>> > > >[snip]

........................

I live in Indiana. I do not believe that there are any religious symbols
used in the lighting, nor have I seen it promoted as a "Christmas" event.
Besides, the Christmas tree comes from Teutonic theology.

> They're not about to give this up.

> My mother scratched her initials inside it around 1925, but I didn't
> know that the one time I was inside, so I didn't look.

[Herman Rubin]

On 2016-03-16, Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote:
> On 3/15/2016 8:57 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 5:34:41 PM UTC-7, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 13:16:40 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>>>> <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>>>>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:11:25 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>>>>> <lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>>>>> [snip]

...................

> I support his stance on restoring the old form of the pledge of
> allegiance and removing the "under God". I always remain silent when it
> comes to those words as I feel that their presence is a violation of the
> separation of church and state.

I am surprised that some Jewish groups did not oppose "under God".

The Supreme Court has ruled against government-sponsored prayers.
I see the phrase as either meaningless, as everything is under God
if God exists and clearly false if He does not, or is a prayer for
God to include the US under his egis, which would make a violation
of the Third Commandment, taking the name of the Lord in vain.

> What I don't understand is the reason for the Supreme Court's ruling
> that he didn't have "prudential standing" to bring the suit? He is an
> American citizen, is he not? As such, shouldn't that be sufficient
> standing to bring the suit?

The courts have ruled that to bring a civil suit requires that the
ones bringing it are directly affected by the action they seek to
rule illegal.

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

On Wednesday, March 16, 2016 at 6:48:14 PM UTC, shel...@thevillages.net wrote:
>
> Not that I disagree with much of what you have to say, but just what has
> this speech of yours have to do with prayer in a public schools?
>

You get rid of religion at a school or university, and something
else comes in to fill the void. So I once was a TV program where
an "ecologist" was studying killer whales eating seals. "We must
pay respect to both whale and seal" he said, "and not affect the
result of this encounter in any way". Scientifically that's untrue -
manipulating one feeding event for experimental or even entertainment
purposes isn't going to have a material impact on the population of
either killer whales or seals. But he would have been a vegetarian,
someone who didn't allow himself to eat meat, but not so detached from
reality that he thinks orcas can live off seaweed. So he saw in the
act of a killer whale feeding something holy.

Ok, it's small example, a quasi religious position which may well
be imposed on students doing marine ecological studies. But it
won't be isolated. You get more and more of that sort of nonsense
until eventually you have fully-fledged established religion, eventually
even in name.

[Shelly]

Is he not directly affected by having his constitutional right violated
since he is an American citizen?



--
Shelly

[Shelly]

Sorry Malcom, but that is gobbledeegook.

--
Shelly

[Herman Rubin]

On 2016-03-16, Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote:

> On 3/16/2016 1:39 PM, Herman Rubin wrote:
>> On 2016-03-15, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:32:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>>> <lowh...@gmail.com> said:

>>>> Obviously, we disagree.

>>> Indeed, we probably disagree on what constitutes promotion, and what
>>> is tolerable and what's worth a fight.

....................

>>>> What you call antagonize I call education.

>>> The thing is, for these purposes it doesn't matter what you or I call
>>> it. What matters is what the recipients of said "education" think it
>>> is.

>> Actually, there is an imposition of what is sometimes recognized as
>> a religion, namely, Secular Humanism, which has dominated education
>> for the last roughhly 80 years. It is what forced age grouping,
>> and dumbed down the curriculum for what the low end could pass.
>> This is ONE of the reasons why children in the low socioeconomic
>> classes do not achieve; their education is reduced to the level
>> those unwilling or unable to learn in thir classes can handle.
>> Much of their philosophy has now been enacted into law, which
>> makes it difficult for anyone even with average ability to
>> achieve what can be achieved. No child left behind means no
>> child can get ahead, and schools and teachers are rated on how
>> their students do on standardized exams of details, not taking
>> into account the willingness and abiliities of the students.

> Not that I disagree with much of what you have to say, but just what has
> this speech of yours have to do with prayer in a public schools?

It concerns the imposition of what ie a moral code, and one which
has obtained to some extent the status of a religion, on the American
public school system.`

[Herman Rubin]

On 2016-03-16, Shelly <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote:

[Herman Rubin]

According to present court rulings, no. He is not being asked to
participate in saying "God", amd he has no parental rights in
raising the girl.

[Harry Weiss]

It however is the symbol of xmas, And at the captol building in CA the
lights for the decorations The Chanukah menora is all paid for by
Chabad. The Capitol grounds are available to any group that reserves it,
I worked 3 blocks from it for many years and almost every days there was
some group using it,

That is all a legitimate usage of public property,

> > They're not about to give this up.

> > My mother scratched her initials inside it around 1925, but I didn't
> > know that the one time I was inside, so I didn't look.


> --
> This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
> are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
> Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
> hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

[Yisroel Markov]

He had to show that they were violated. He could not.

>According to present court rulings, no. He is not being asked to
>participate in saying "God", amd he has no parental rights in
>raising the girl.

The "standing" criteria prevents a lot of frivolous suits. It's also
why the Supreme Court threw out the Obama "birther" suit - the
plaintiff could not show how she personally was being damaged.

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 12:53:22 AM UTC, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>
> > I live in Indiana. I do not believe that there are any religious symbols
> > used in the lighting, nor have I seen it promoted as a "Christmas" event.
> > Besides, the Christmas tree comes from Teutonic theology.
>
> It however is the symbol of xmas, And at the captol building in CA the
> lights for the decorations The Chanukah menora is all paid for by
> Chabad. The Capitol grounds are available to any group that reserves it,
> I worked 3 blocks from it for many years and almost every days there was
> some group using it,
>

We don't actually know why it's traditional to put up trees at Christmas.
There are several theories, one that it's a remnant of the old Yule log,
another that it represents the tree of knowledge, and another that it
is in fact a hannukah bush - a German saw a bush decorated with candles
for hannukah and thought he'd like a similar one for his own house.

[Beach Runner]

Hannukah has been called the festival of lights I've heard it said the custom
of putting up lights came from Hannukah. However, there was no such thing
in Judaism as a Hannukah bush, I personally find it offensive.

As far as Christmas, I believe it was a pagan holiday, Yule that included a tree, presents and merrymaking. For the Romans to convert everyone over Chistianity, the people loved their Yule holiday, so they moved Jesus's birthday to create a popular Christian holiday. Otherwise getting the people
to convert would have been impossible in Rome.

That's why I say Christianity really grew and came from Rome, not Israel,
as it was a small sect of Jews in Israel, not a new religion with a new name.

[mm]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 04:39:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 11:46:57 AM UTC-7, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 12:53:22 AM UTC, hjw...@panix.com wrote:
>> >
>> > > I live in Indiana. I do not believe that there are any religious symbols
>> > > used in the lighting, nor have I seen it promoted as a "Christmas" event.
>> > > Besides, the Christmas tree comes from Teutonic theology.
>> >
>> > It however is the symbol of xmas, And at the captol building in CA the
>> > lights for the decorations The Chanukah menora is all paid for by
>> > Chabad. The Capitol grounds are available to any group that reserves it,
>> > I worked 3 blocks from it for many years and almost every days there was
>> > some group using it,
>> >
>> We don't actually know why it's traditional to put up trees at Christmas.
>> There are several theories, one that it's a remnant of the old Yule log,
>> another that it represents the tree of knowledge, and another that it
>> is in fact a hannukah bush - a German saw a bush decorated with candles
>> for hannukah and thought he'd like a similar one for his own house.
>
>Hannukah has been called the festival of lights I've heard it said the custom
>of putting up lights came from Hannukah. However, there was no such thing
>in Judaism as a Hannukah bush, I personally find it offensive.

That's another one of Malcomn's nonsense ideas. I don't read his
posts anymore but please, never take him seriously. It's 1000 to 1
odds that there's no truth to much of what he say, and higher than
1,000,000 to 1 about a bush decorated for Chanukah. No German saw one
and came up with Xmas lights because of it. I doubt if a German
ever saw one since then either.

>
>As far as Christmas, I believe it was a pagan holiday, Yule that included a tree, presents and merrymaking. For the Romans to convert everyone over Chistianity, the people loved their Yule holiday, so they moved Jesus's birthday to create a popular Christian holiday. Otherwise getting the people
>to convert would have been impossible in Rome.
>
>That's why I say Christianity really grew and came from Rome, not Israel,
>as it was a small sect of Jews in Israel, not a new religion with a new name.

Right. The original Jews lost interest or got old and died.

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 4:31:50 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
>
> Hannukah has been called the festival of lights I've heard it said the custom
> of putting up lights came from Hannukah. However, there was no such thing
> in Judaism as a Hannukah bush, I personally find it offensive.
>

A Hannukah lamp is usually a menorah-like candelabra, but with extra arms.
However it can be anything, including a bush, as long as it has the
right number of lights.

>
> As far as Christmas, I believe it was a pagan holiday, Yule that included a tree,
> presents and merrymaking. For the Romans to convert everyone over Chistianity,
> the people loved their Yule holiday, so they moved Jesus's birthday to create a popular
> Christian holiday. Otherwise getting the people to convert would have been impossible
> in Rome.
>

Yule was a northern European holiday, not celebrated in Rome.
However some of the Yule traditions might have been carried over into Christmas.
That would have happened in the 5th and 6th centuries, as these peoples
entered the collapsing Roman Empire and made contact wth Christians,
eventually converting.

>
> That's why I say Christianity really grew and came from Rome, not Israel,
> as it was a small sect of Jews in Israel, not a new religion with a new name.
>

Christian headquarters were moved from Jerusalem to Rome some time in the
1st century. There's a lot of speculation about that, but the truth is that whilst
there must have been some internal discussion about it, no records have
survived, we don't know what the arguments were. But Jerusalem and Rome
were the two logical places for HQ.

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 08:55:08 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
said:

>On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 04:39:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
><lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>>That's why I say Christianity really grew and came from Rome, not Israel,
>>as it was a small sect of Jews in Israel, not a new religion with a new name.
>
>Right. The original Jews lost interest or got old and died.

More like they were successfully marginalized and pushed out of the
developing religion.

[Herman Rubin]

I would be very surprised if any Jew would have placed candles on
a bush or tree except for lighting before the modern emulation of
a Christas tree.

[Herman Rubin]

On 2016-03-18, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 08:55:08 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
> said:

>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 04:39:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
>><lowh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> [snip]

>>>That's why I say Christianity really grew and came from Rome, not Israel,
>>>as it was a small sect of Jews in Israel, not a new religion with a new name.

>>Right. The original Jews lost interest or got old and died.

> More like they were successfully marginalized and pushed out of the
> developing religion.

Until well into the fourth century, there were a substantial number
of people who considered themselves both Jews and Christians. The
Council of Nicaea, which handle many controversial affairs in Christianity,
deliberately made it almost impossible to be a "Jew for Jesus".

[cindys]

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 9:16:14 AM UTC-4, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
snip

> >
> A Hannukah lamp is usually a menorah-like candelabra, but with extra arms.
> However it can be anything, including a bush, as long as it has the
> right number of lights.
> >

snip
=====
Absolutely false. According to the Kitzur Shulchan Orach, the lights of the chanukiah must be straight in a row and all of the same height. When are you going to stop playing rabbi? or do you post this nonsense just to get a rise out of the rest of us?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[mm]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:42:05 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 9:16:14 AM UTC-4, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
> snip
>> >
>> A Hannukah lamp is usually a menorah-like candelabra, but with extra arms.
>> However it can be anything, including a bush, as long as it has the
>> right number of lights.

I didn't notice this before. Thank you, Cindy, for pointing out more
of his nonsense.

Malcolm, why don't you ever apologize or show some shame for telling
falsehoods?

>snip
>=====
>Absolutely false. According to the Kitzur Shulchan Orach, the lights of the chanukiah must be straight in a row and all of the same height. When are you going to stop playing rabbi? or do you post this nonsense just to get a rise out of the rest of us?

He may be 20 years old, but he seems to be a 10-year old.

>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.

[mm]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:42:05 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 9:16:14 AM UTC-4, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
> snip
>> >
>> A Hannukah lamp is usually a menorah-like candelabra, but with extra arms.
>> However it can be anything, including a bush, as long as it has the
>> right number of lights.
>> >
>snip
>=====
>Absolutely false. According to the Kitzur Shulchan Orach, the lights of the chanukiah must be straight in a row and all of the same height. When are you going to stop playing rabbi?

And when will he stop playing Jew?

[Beach Runner]

First of all, the people were celebrating Yule throughout Europe in the
Roman empire.


But here's some facts about the absurd idea of a Hanukkah bush in Germany.
I doubt you can post any documentation supporting your statement.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/first-person/no-such-thing-chanukah-bush

'No Such Thing As A Chanukah Bush'
12/17/12
Ellen Schecter
Special To The Jewish Week

We're the only Jews in Pennypack Woods, Pa. We exchange gifts on Christmas with our neighbors and each other, but have never had decorations that look or smell like Christmas.

Except once -- when I'm 5.

"Can we please, please have a Christmas tree, Mommy?" I sob. "I'm the only one in our whole neighborhood without Christmas and I feel so left out. We don't have any holiday, and Christmas is so beautiful."

My parents finally exchange that look.

"OK, we'll have a tree -- a Chanukah bush. And Nana and Poppop must never know."

"Oh, thank you, thank you, I'll never tell, never." When I hug her, she's stiff and her heart's beating fast.

That night, my father brings home a fluffy tree and sets it up in our living room. He uses cardboard, scissors and tin foil to make a shiny six-pointed star for the top. "It's a Star of David, a Jewish star." I have no idea what he means.

My mother and I string popcorn and cranberry chains for trimming. I prick my fingers so often they start to bleed, but I don't complain: we have a tree -- a real tree. Strand by strand, we add tinsel, then stand back to admire our creation with sheepish satisfaction.

"What about colored lights? Or candles?" I ask. I've studied Christmas trees in people's windows, and in magazines and Coca Cola ads.

"Do you want to burn down the house?" My mother says, grabbing my arm. "Remember, my father will never forgive me if he even suspects we did this for you. Understand?"

"Yes."

I try to be happy about my sparkly Chanukah bush, but I feel uneasy: I thought it would turn us into a happy family, like the ones on Christmas cards. Instead, we're still ourselves: a little happy, and kind of sad and worried. And my tree is becoming a magnet for guilt: a reminder of my selfishness.

On Sunday afternoon, the worst happens. A peek through the upstairs curtains reveals Poppop's shiny gray Chrysler unexpectedly pulling up outside. He paces impatiently on our doorstep, waiting for an answer to his loud knocks.

"Oh, my God," my mother moans, her face white as our walls.

"Pearl, keep them busy at the front door," my father says. "Ellen, help me."

We clatter downstairs. Daddy quickly drags the tree outside where we burn trash. "Ellen, quick! Brush away tinsel, the pine needles."

I pause to rescue the tinfoil star on the ground and hide it inside my flannel shirt. I race inside, trying to pick up hundreds of bits of tinsel and fragrant pine needles. It's hopeless: the smell of evergreen would reveal our secret even to the blind.

My muscular grandfather walks into the living room. "What did you do?" he rages at my mother. She shrinks before him like a child. My beautiful Nana hides behind her, wringing her hands, muttering in Yiddish. Poppop puffs up with rage.

"It was a Chanukah bush. We did it for Ellen," my mother whispers. "She was jealous of the other children. I hated to see her suffer, so..."

"She's jealous? She's suffering? There's no such thing as a Chanukah bush. You just confuse the child. She's a Jew and Jews don't have Christmas. Make her Chanukah like a real Jewish mother, and she won't be jealous."

"It had a Jewish star on top," I say, holding it out.

"Puh," proclaims my grandfather, practically dancing with rage, "meshugenah."

My father enters the kitchen, bringing a whiff of smoke. I know our tree is now burning like any other trash.

"That's why we came today, to bring Chanukah," Nana says timidly, still behind my mother. We brought Chanukah presents for everybody." She shows us her bulging carryall. "Maybe we can have tea, and the cookies I baked."

"No tea, no cookies, Sarah. We leave now. Get into the machine." He grabs the bag from her. "And we don't leave no presents, not one."

"Ben, how about a little schnapps first?" my father asks, but Poppop pulls Nana toward the door.

"Puh! We don't eat in no house with no Chanukah bush. Doesn't even keep kosher."

He spits the words at my mother, then walks out the door, Nana waddling after him. I know Poppop will beat her with his belt because of my tree when they get home, just the way he used to beat my mother when she was a little girl.

I watch her pale blue eyes widen as tears slide down her cheeks. My father puts his arm around her shoulders. I stand alone. We don't move as the shiny gray Chrysler glides into the distance.

Ellen Schecter has published many children's books. Her first novel, "The Big Idea" (Hyperion), won the Américas Award for Children's and Young Adult Literature. This essay is adapted from "Fierce Joy," her memoir published last June by Greenpoint Press.

Last Update:
10/26/2015 - 08:56

Read more at http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/first-person/no-such-thing-chanukah-bush#odVLPYOSZJrIgShw.99



As far as Romans celebrating their beloved Yule


http://www.ibtimes.com/winter-solstice-2014-3-things-know-about-pagan-yule-celebrations-1763756

Notice the section on Roman's celebrating it

The pagan holiday known as Yule falls on the winter solstice, which is Dec. 21 this year. Photo: Flickr

December may be marked by Christmas, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, but for pagans it's the time to celebrate Yule. The holiday marks the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere (Sunday, Dec. 21, this year) and celebrates the rebirth of the sun and beginning of winter. It is one of the oldest winter celebrations known.

The winter solstice is the longest night and shortest day of the year. The Earth's axis tilts the furthest away from the sun at 23-and-a-half degrees, giving all locations north of the equator less than 12 hours of daylight. This moment has been marked by mankind for centuries.

In ancient Rome, the weeklong feast of Saturnalia honored the sun god Saturn. Celts believed the sun stood still for 12 days, making it necessary to light a log fire to conquer the darkness. During the Iron Age, the Celts and other ancient Europeans welcomed the winter solstice by feasting, merrymaking and sacrificing animals. Today modern pagans celebrate the holiday by lighting candles, throwing bonfires, hosting feasts and decorating their homes.

Early Celebrations

Celebrating the rebirth of the sun can be seen in other cultures throughout history. While these typically took place during the coldest, darkest days of the year, winter solstice traditions were celebrations that gave people hope sunny days lay ahead.

Egyptians celebrated the return of Ra, god of the sun, on a daily basis. Ancient Greeks held a similar festival called Lenaea. The Roman Empire held Saturnalia celebrations. Scandinavia's Norsemen called the holiday "Yule." Families would light Yule logs where they would eat until the log burned out - which could take up to 12 days. Each spark was believed to represent a new pig or calf that would be born in the new year.

Germanic peoples would celebrate the winter festival by honoring the pagan god Odin. Many believed he would fly through the night sky (on a magical flying horse) and determine who would be blessed or cursed in the coming year. Many decided to stay indoors, fearing Odin's wrath.

Relation to Christmas

Originally the Christian calendar focused on Easter. It was only in the fourth century that the church decided Jesus Christ's birthday should be celebrated. Since the Bible did not point to an exact date when Christ was born, Pope Julius I chose Dec. 25. It's commonly believed that the church chose the date in an effort to replace the Roman Saturnalia with the Christian holiday.

"As the Christmas celebration moved west," Harry Yeide, a professor of religion at George Washington University told National Geographic. "The date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."

Besides the date, Christian leaders found ways to relate the pagan holiday to the Christian one.

"This gave rise to an interesting play on words," Yeide said. "In several languages, not just in English, people have traditionally compared the rebirth of the sun with the birth of the son of God."

Christmas traditions including dinner feasts, gift-giving, and decorative wreaths can be traced back to winter solstice rituals. For instance, for the Celtic druids, mistletoe was a sacred plant called "All Heal." Priests would cut the plant from the tree, hold a feast and sacrifice animals underneath it. Mistletoe was believed to cure illnesses, serve as an antidote for poisons, ensure fertility and protect against witchcraft. Some people would hang it from their doorways or rooms to offer goodwill to visitors.

Ancient Romans would decorate their homes with holly during winter solstice. Holly wreaths were given as gifts and used as decoration in public areas and in homes to honor the sun god Saturn. Ancient Celts would have similar traditions. Many would plant holly in their homes as a form of protection since the plants was believed to hold magical powers for its ability to survive the winter months.

Modern Festivities

For Wiccans and Druids, Yule is one of the eight solar holidays celebrated each year. Wiccans see Yule as a time to spend with friends and family, exchange gifts and honor the sun. Homes are decorated with red, green and white decorations - colors that hark back to Druidic traditions.

Some Wiccans welcome the new solar year with light. Rituals can include meditating in darkness with lit candles, singing pagan carols and lighting Yule logs (either in indoor fireplaces or outdoor bonfires).

Wiccan priestess Selena Fox suggests decorating an evergreen wreath with holiday herbs and mounting it on the front door to celebrate the continuity of life. Evergreen trees can be decorated as well with holiday decorations and pagan symbols. "Call it a Solstice tree," Fox said in a blog post about winter solstice traditions.

Druids typically celebrate the holiday at Stonehenge in England. Last year 3,500 visitors watched the sun rise and watched how it cast a line that directly connects the altar stone, the slaughter stone and heel stone. Similar celebrations take place at other ancient sites such as Newgrange in Ireland and the Cerro del Gentil pyramid in Peru.

[Yisroel Markov]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:42:05 +0000 (UTC), cindys

<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:

>On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 9:16:14 AM UTC-4, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
> snip
>> >
>> A Hannukah lamp is usually a menorah-like candelabra, but with extra arms.
>> However it can be anything, including a bush, as long as it has the
>> right number of lights.
>> >
>snip
>=====
>Absolutely false. According to the Kitzur Shulchan Orach, the lights of the chanukiah must be straight in a row and all of the same height.

You can do it on a bush. But I don't see why anyone would want to.

BTW, I think the KSA is too late a source for something like that. But
in this case, the earlier ones say the same thing.

>When are you going to stop playing rabbi? or do you post this nonsense just to get a rise out of the rest of us?

I doubt it. But I would like to see this claim substantiated.

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

There's a counter-example:
http://pashoshim.com/products/creating-hanukka-lamp

[Harry Weiss]

All halachic sources say otherwise,

[mm]

ROTFLOL

>All halachic sources say otherwise,

That doesn't interfere with the great rabbi Malcolm.

[cindys]

------------
An arts and crafts kit from a (secular) children's toy company is your proof? If you have a medical or scientific question in your biochemistry lab, do you look to children's picture books for the information?
I am laughing so hard, I don't even have the words.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

[Yisroel Markov]

Sorry, no. The basic halakha as codified in the Mishne Tora does not
specify *anything* regarding placement of lights in a straight line
and at the same height. Nor does the Shulkhan Arukh - this appears to
be a later addition. Sh"A 671:4 says as follows:

"If one fills a vessel with oil and surrounds it with wicks [meaning
in a circle - YSM] - if one then turns covers it with [another]
vessel, then all the wicks count as one. However, if one did not turn
a vessel over it then it does not even count as one light, because it
is like just a fire." ["Madura" can denote even a campfire. The point,
I think, is that it looks like something other than a fire for
lighting purposes - like, e.g., a cooking fire.]

Rema comments: "Therefore one must be diligent to arrange the lights
in an even line and not in a circle, for then it would be like just a
fire (Hagahot Maimoniyot in the name of Sefer Mitzvot Katan). It is
permitted to light a candelabra called "Lampa" [which is round! - YSM]
because all the lights are significantly separated. We must be careful
when setting up the lights, even if they are on the same level, not to
light them at once, since it would be like just a fire (Piskei MaHaRi
65). Even with the Shabbat and Yom Tov lights we must be careful not
to do this (Or Zarua)."

I have also found a reference to MaHaRSHaL approving the use of a
round candelabra when one doesn't have anything else.

This illustrates what I mean about the Kitzur not being a good source
for basic unadorned halakha.

[mm]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:15:43 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 06:02:57 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
><hjw...@panix.com> said:
>
>>malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 5:34:36 PM UTC, cindys wrote:
>>> > On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 9:16:14 AM UTC-4, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
>>> > snip
>>> > > >
>>> > > A Hannukah lamp is usually a menorah-like candelabra, but with extra arms.
>>> > > However it can be anything, including a bush, as long as it has the
>>> > > right number of lights.
>>> > > >
>>> > snip
>>> > =====
>>> > Absolutely false. According to the Kitzur Shulchan Orach, the lights
>>> > of the chanukiah must be straight in a row and all of the same height.
>>> > When are you going to stop playing rabbi? or do you post this nonsense
>>> > just to get a rise out of the rest of us?
>>> >
>>
>>> There's a counter-example:
>>> http://pashoshim.com/products/creating-hanukka-lamp
>>
>>All halachic sources say otherwise,
>
>Sorry, no. The basic halakha as codified in the Mishne Tora does not
>specify *anything* regarding placement of lights in a straight line
>and at the same height. Nor does the Shulkhan Arukh - this appears to
>be a later addition.

Nonetheless, it WAS added. We used to be allowed to put knob and
tube wiring in our homes for electricity. Now we're not. We used to
be allowed to put lead water pipes in our homes. Now we're not.

If someone were to tell others that knob and tube or lead pipes were
allowed, he'd be ignorant and reckless.

[Yisroel Markov]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 17:42:02 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
said:

Secular law evolves inside a fully functioning legal system. Thus, a
later prohibition has the same weight as the any prior one. In
halakha, we have a fixed basic law that can't evolve, and changed only
by addition - but those additions have the status of custom, not law.
(Applying halakha to innovations is obviously different.) The
practical difference is that one who installs a lead water pipe
violates the current law, but one who lights a round candelabra for
Hanukka (or kindles one light every night instead of 2, 3, etc.) has
fulfilled his obligation, even if not in the best possible manner. So
this is not a good analogy.

I even found a contemporary rabbi's statement to this effect:

"Strictly speaking, even if one does not arrange the candles at the
same height and in a straight line, so long as they are separate from
one another and a person who stands near them can count them and
discern that they reflect the miracle of Chanukah, the commandment has
been fulfilled. Even if one places the candles in a circle, the
commandment has been fulfilled, because each candle stands
independently."

Rabbi Eliezer Melamed at
http://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=6547

My point stands - Harry's statement is factually incorrect. Malcolm's
is almost correct - there is no minimum number of lights (above one).

>If someone were to tell others that knob and tube or lead pipes were
>allowed, he'd be ignorant and reckless.

Thanks for the compliment :-)

>> Sh"A 671:4 says as follows:
>>
>>"If one fills a vessel with oil and surrounds it with wicks [meaning
>>in a circle - YSM] - if one then turns covers it with [another]
>>vessel, then all the wicks count as one. However, if one did not turn
>>a vessel over it then it does not even count as one light, because it
>>is like just a fire." ["Madura" can denote even a campfire. The point,
>>I think, is that it looks like something other than a fire for
>>lighting purposes - like, e.g., a cooking fire.]
>>
>>Rema comments: "Therefore one must be diligent to arrange the lights
>>in an even line and not in a circle, for then it would be like just a
>>fire (Hagahot Maimoniyot in the name of Sefer Mitzvot Katan). It is
>>permitted to light a candelabra called "Lampa" [which is round! - YSM]
>>because all the lights are significantly separated. We must be careful
>>when setting up the lights, even if they are on the same level, not to
>>light them at once, since it would be like just a fire (Piskei MaHaRi
>>65). Even with the Shabbat and Yom Tov lights we must be careful not
>>to do this (Or Zarua)."
>>
>>I have also found a reference to MaHaRSHaL approving the use of a
>>round candelabra when one doesn't have anything else.
>>
>>This illustrates what I mean about the Kitzur not being a good source
>>for basic unadorned halakha.