SOLD HOUSE - NEED TO MOVE OUR MEZUZAHS --
Dvora
OURSELVES NEVER HAVE --
-
NOW WE WILL BE MOVING G-D WILLING CLOSE TO DANIEL AND WE MUST DO THIS
OURSELVES --
-
MY IGNORANCE AMAZES ME -- COULD SOMEONE WALK ME THROUGH IT -- PLEASE --
Shalom From Dvora --
Dvora
SOLD HOUSE - NEED TO MOVE OUR MEZUZAHS --
Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated Date: Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 11:13am
(EDT+4) From: Shalomf...@webtv.net (Dvora)
------------------
DOES ANYBODY KNOW ?
-------------------
IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
FORGIVNESS -
-
LA SHANA TOVA
Shalom From Dvora --
Evertjan.
> SOLD HOUSE - NEED TO MOVE OUR MEZUZAHS --
>
> Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated Date: Fri, Aug 27, 2010, 11:13am
> (EDT+4) From: Shalomf...@webtv.net (Dvora)
> ------------------
> DOES ANYBODY KNOW ?
> -------------------
>
> MY FATHER AND MY NEPHEW PUT OUR MEZUZAHS UP IN OUR HOUSES -- WE
> OURSELVES NEVER HAVE --
> -
> NOW WE WILL BE MOVING G-D WILLING CLOSE TO DANIEL AND WE MUST DO THIS
> OURSELVES --
> -
> MY IGNORANCE AMAZES ME -- COULD SOMEONE WALK ME THROUGH IT -- PLEASE --
> Shalom From Dvora --
When moving, if a Jew is moving into the house you are leaving, then you
are supposed to leave your Mezuzahs behind. If a non-Jew is moving in, or
if nobody will be moving in, then you may take your Mezuzahs with you.
<http://www.mezuzah.net/laws7.html>
<http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/225744/jewish/Removing-a-
Mezuzah-Permanently.htm>
<http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/teshuvot/docs/20012004/Kurtz%
20Mezuzah.pdf>
> IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR
You didn't even try, dear Dvora. ;-)
>-- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR FORGIVNESS -
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
Harry Weiss
> <http://www.mezuzah.net/laws7.html>
> <http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/225744/jewish/Removing-a-
> Mezuzah-Permanently.htm>
> <http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/teshuvot/docs/20012004/Kurtz%
> 20Mezuzah.pdf>
One extra comment. If a Jew is moving in what you are required to leave
is the parchment. So, if you have a very valuable or sentimental case,
you can substitute a differnt case.
> --
> Evertjan.
> The Netherlands.
> (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
>
> One extra comment. If a Jew is moving in what you are required to leave
> is the parchment. So, if you have a very valuable or sentimental case,
> you can substitute a differnt case.
>
how one goes about removing the case without removing the parchment?
If you mean taking down the mezuza, removing the parchment and putting
it into a cheap case, and then putting it back up? As far as I know (I
may be wrong, and if I am, you will correct me, citing appropriate
text from Talmud and rishonim) you are not supposed to take down the
mezuzas at all. And once you did wrongly take them down (perhaps you
were under the mistaken impression that a goy is moving in, or that
the house is to be torn down), why would you have to put them back up
again?
GEK
Dvora
BROTHER --
-
I HAVE RECIEVED FEW GIFTS FROM THEM AND SO THEY ARE PRECIOS TO ME -
-
CAN I NOT TAKE THEM WITH ME AND PUT THEM UP AGAIN IN THE NEXT HOUSE --
IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
FORGIVNESS -
Harry Weiss
> On Aug 29, 3:27?pm, Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > One extra comment. ?If a Jew is moving in what you are required to leave
> > is the parchment. ?So, if you have a very valuable or sentimental case,
> > you can substitute a differnt case.
> >
> You are not supposed to remove the mezuza. So would you kindly explain
> how one goes about removing the case without removing the parchment?
> If you mean taking down the mezuza, removing the parchment and putting
> it into a cheap case, and then putting it back up? As far as I know (I
> may be wrong, and if I am, you will correct me, citing appropriate
> text from Talmud and rishonim) you are not supposed to take down the
> mezuzas at all. And once you did wrongly take them down (perhaps you
> were under the mistaken impression that a goy is moving in, or that
> the house is to be torn down), why would you have to put them back up
> again?
> GEK
That is the psak I was given. You are allowed to fix a Mezuza, put up a
new nicer case for your own use, take it down to paint etc.
Dvora
HOWEVER I WILL GRATEFULLY ACCEPT IT AND LEAVE MY MEZUZAHS INTACT WHERE
THEY ARE --
-
DID I TELL YOU THE NEW OWNERD ARE NOT JEWISH --
Dvora
HAVE -- - TRIED ---
IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
FORGIVNESS -
mm
(Dvora) wrote:
>THANK YOU ALL -- THIS WAS NOT THE RULING I EXPECTED - OR WISHED FOR --
>HOWEVER I WILL GRATEFULLY ACCEPT IT AND LEAVE MY MEZUZAHS INTACT WHERE
>THEY ARE --
>-
>DID I TELL YOU THE NEW OWNERD ARE NOT JEWISH --
I don't recall, but since they aren't, you should go back and read the
thread again then. :) Or just take my word: If they are not Jewish
you don't have to leave them, and I wouldn't if I were you.
The biggest problem is with china mezuzah cases. Hopefully they were
screwed on instead of nailed on**, although it might be hard to get
screws thin enough. If you have any made of china, grab the tacks
with pliers and pull them out without touching the china, or get
someone who is very handy to get them off, if he can.
**dang. My niece's mother asked me to put on on and I used a nail set
to gently nail it on. I should have taken my own advice.
>IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
>FORGIVNESS -
No, you haven't offended me at all.
>LA SHANA TOVA
>Shalom From Dvora --
>
And congratulations on selling your house. No simple taxk I hear.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
mm
Becaue if a Jew is moving in, you should leave mezuzahs on the
doorposts. Compare sith a situation when you think you are moving and
that the house is being torn down afterwards. Then you learn the
house isn't being torn down and you're not moving. You have to put the
mezuzahs up again.
The second link provided by Evertijan said
" If your mezuzahs are of a high quality and expensive, you may
replace them with less expensive ones before you leave, providing that
they are 100% kosher. The mezuzah cases may certainly be exchanged for
inexpensive mezuzah covers."
To me sentimentality is more important and I suspect he would say
that's as good a reason as cost. Harry said so.
And I'm sentimental about almost everything.
>GEK
I'm surprised that the first link said only that the mezuzahs may be
removed if a non-Jew is moving in. Seems to me it's bad when a
non-Jew regards one as a talisman or lucky charm, which has been my
impression is the case, or alternatively of no religious meaning at
all, and in either case, they should have been removed, istm.
When I was in Brooklyn, the landlord sent someone to paint the doors
and doorframes and he painted right over my mezuzah. I removed it,
and took out the scroll and soaked it in water for a while. It was
latex paint and most of it came off in a sheet from the case. I had to
pick out small bits from little crevices.
mm
(Dvora) wrote:
>NO JEW IS MOVING IN -- MY MEZUZAHS WE GIFTS FROM MY FATHER AND MY
>BROTHER --
So you did say this already, but I read the other one first.
>-
>I HAVE RECIEVED FEW GIFTS FROM THEM AND SO THEY ARE PRECIOS TO ME -
>-
>CAN I NOT TAKE THEM WITH ME AND PUT THEM UP AGAIN IN THE NEXT HOUSE --
Absolutely. Do that.
>
>
>IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
>FORGIVNESS -
>-
>LA SHANA TOVA
>Shalom From Dvora --
>
--
Dvora
I WANT TO TAKE THEM -- NOT BECAUSE OF MONETARY VALUE BUT BECAUSE AS YOU
KNOW MY FATHER OBM IS NO LONGER WITH ME AND MY BROTHER HAS BEEN VERY
DISTANT --
-
I AM CONFUSED ABOUT IF IT IS OK TO DO THIS - YES - TAKE - NO - DO NOT
REMOVE -- I THOUGHT THE PROBLEM WOULD BE TO MAKE SURE THEY WERE --
PROPERLY MOVED AND PUT UP AGAIN AT THE OTHER HOME --
Micha Berger
> DID I TELL YOU THE NEW OWNERD ARE NOT JEWISH --
Then it's fine to take the mezuzos with you.
And may everyone in your new home have long productive lives,
blessed with health and happiness,
and may everyone who passes by your by-then-relocated mezuzos bring only
good news, friendship and fraternity.
-Micha
None
Take it with you...or take the whole door frame....
Henry Goodman
news:772647d6-6a7c-440e...@s15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought mezuzas should be taken down occasionally (once in 7 years?) to
check whether the ktav is still kosher.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Dvora
OK !!
WHAT A LOVELY BLESSING -- THANK YOU--
Dvora
Re: SOLD HOUSE - NEED TO MOVE OUR MEZUZAHS --
Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated Date: Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 11:18am
(EDT+4) From: No...@home.com (None)
-
Take it with you...or take the whole door frame....
Evertjan.
> EVERTJAN - I AM GLAD WE NEVER OFFENDED ONE ANOTHER -- BUT WHY WOUL I
> HAVE -- - TRIED ---
1 I am not that easily offended,
and certainly not if the other perty did not actively try to do that.
2 the "try" part was a also said jokingly, as offending seems to me not
being your [Dvora] habit.
I think joking is such a neccessary part of Jewish culture, that
soc.culture.jewish.moderated members should try pracitizing that even more
often than at present.
> IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
> FORGIVNESS -
That's why asking forgiveness for accidental offending is not even
necessary, though I certeinly do not deny you or anyone to do that.
The accidentally offended should primarily look at him or herself why he or
she is so easily offended.
Would there be a difference in European and Transponder Jewish stance on
these two subjects?
Over here, [often covert] joking is still a form of art.
Evertjan.
> I'm surprised that the first link said only that the mezuzahs may be
> removed if a non-Jew is moving in. Seems to me it's bad when a
> non-Jew regards one as a talisman or lucky charm, which has been my
> impression is the case, or alternatively of no religious meaning at
> all, and in either case, they should have been removed, istm.
On the other hand, if Jews had lived there and, say, were murdered in
concentration camps, the non-Jewish new owner or tennant might like to
leave them on, emptied of perchment, as a honorable memento, if the mezuza
stemmed from that age. [I do not know the halachic implications here]
Over here in Europe,
little copper "stumbling stones" are put for that purpose in the pavement:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein>
Micha Berger
> On the other hand, if Jews had lived there and, say, were murdered in
> concentration camps, the non-Jewish new owner or tennant might like to
> leave them on, emptied of perchment, as a honorable memento, if the mezuza
> stemmed from that age. [I do not know the halachic implications here]
There is no halachic import to the box. In fact, in ye olden days,
including the old city of J-m today, the mezuzah scroll was usually put
physically into the doorpost. (As is true for many of the mezuzos my
employer put up at this office, in fact. The scroll is in the doorframe,
behind a piece of lucite which is screwed into place, flush with the
steel.)
The word "mezuzah" technically refers to the doorpost, not the scroll
or the box. The box is an appendage to the doorpost, as a way to put
the scroll "in the doorpost" without having to gouge a hole.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507
mm
<henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>"Giorgies E Kepipesiom" <kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:772647d6-6a7c-440e...@s15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>On Aug 29, 3:27 pm, Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> One extra comment. If a Jew is moving in what you are required to leave
>> is the parchment. So, if you have a very valuable or sentimental case,
>> you can substitute a differnt case.
>>
>You are not supposed to remove the mezuza. So would you kindly explain
>how one goes about removing the case without removing the parchment?
>If you mean taking down the mezuza, removing the parchment and putting
>it into a cheap case, and then putting it back up? As far as I know (I
>may be wrong, and if I am, you will correct me, citing appropriate
>text from Talmud and rishonim)
But you haven't cited anything from the Talmud or Rishonim saying they
can't be taken down. Why are others expected to do more than you?
>you are not supposed to take down the
>mezuzas at all. And once you did wrongly take them down (perhaps you
>were under the mistaken impression that a goy is moving in, or that
>the house is to be torn down), why would you have to put them back up
>again?
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I thought mezuzas should be taken down occasionally (once in 7 years?) to
>check whether the ktav is still kosher.
Twice in 7 years, though that might mean, for example, now and 6 years
10 months later, then 6 years 10 months after that.
But I get your point. If they have to be taken down to be checked,
there is no absolute rule against taking them down.
Amitai
> Evertjan. <exjxw.hannivo...@interxnl.net> wrote:
> > On the other hand, if Jews had lived there and, say, were murdered in
> > concentration camps, the non-Jewish new owner or tennant might like to
> > leave them on, emptied of perchment, as a honorable memento, if the mezuza
> > stemmed from that age. [I do not know the halachic implications here]
>
> There is no halachic import to the box. In fact, in ye olden days,
> including the old city of J-m today, the mezuzah scroll was usually put
> physically into the doorpost. (As is true for many of the mezuzos my
> employer put up at this office, in fact. The scroll is in the doorframe,
> behind a piece of lucite which is screwed into place, flush with the
> steel.)
>
> The word "mezuzah" technically refers to the doorpost, not the scroll
> or the box. The box is an appendage to the doorpost, as a way to put
> the scroll "in the doorpost" without having to gouge a hole.
>
Why should the scroll be "in the doorpost". The commandment (Deut.
6:9)reads "u-khtavtem `al-mezuzut beitekha ,,," (And thou shalt write
them _upon_ [my emphasis _A.H.] the door-posts of thy house ...)
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger I always give much away,
> mi...@aishdas.org and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.http://www.aishdas.org - Rachel Levin Varnhagen
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
Steve Goldfarb
>A trivial point, Micha.
>Why should the scroll be "in the doorpost". The commandment (Deut.
>6:9)reads "u-khtavtem `al-mezuzut beitekha ,,," (And thou shalt write
>them _upon_ [my emphasis _A.H.] the door-posts of thy house ...)
For that matter, then, why a scroll at all? Why not literally write the
words on the doorpost itself?
--s
--
Micha Berger
> A trivial point, Micha.
> Why should the scroll be "in the doorpost". The commandment (Deut.
> 6:9)reads "u-khtavtem `al-mezuzut beitekha ,,," (And thou shalt write
> them _upon_ [my emphasis _A.H.] the door-posts of thy house ...)
You are correct... If we didn't think that "writing" implied using
parchment, "putting up a mezuzah" would mean taking a pen to the doorpost
and writing the text on it.
Instead, we write it on a piece of parchment which is made part of the
doorpost.
I don't know what Saducees did, or Qaraites do.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
mm
<exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote:
>Meir wrote on 30 aug 2010 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
>> I'm surprised that the first link said only that the mezuzahs may be
>> removed if a non-Jew is moving in. Seems to me it's bad when a
>> non-Jew regards one as a talisman or lucky charm, which has been my
>> impression is the case, or alternatively of no religious meaning at
>> all, and in either case, they should have been removed, istm.
>
>On the other hand, if Jews had lived there and, say, were murdered in
>concentration camps, the non-Jewish new owner or tennant might like to
>leave them on, emptied of perchment, as a honorable memento, if the mezuza
>stemmed from that age.
Did this *ever* happen?
I think not, but if it did, as to owners, if the prior owner were Jews
who were arrested, imprisoned without trial and worked to death or
otherwise murdered, how is this new person the owner at all? Rather
than a memento on a doorway, he should be putting his effort into
finding who inherited the property, and either paying them rent or
moving out. If he can't find them, or they were all murdered also, he
should pay his rent to some Jewish association for survivors of the
war, or some organization in Israel. Instead of pretending that some
honorable memento means he's not trespassing on someone else's
property.
People cannot sell something they don't own.
>[I do not know the halachic implications here]
>
>Over here in Europe,
>little copper "stumbling stones" are put for that purpose in the pavement:
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein>
--
Meir
sheldonlg
> People cannot sell something they don't own.
Sure they can. That is why title insurance companies are in business.
BTW, I have a bridge over the east river that I can sell you rather
cheaply....... :-)
(all this because left out the adverb "legally" before the verb "sell").
--
Shelly
mm
<exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote:
>Dvora wrote on 30 aug 2010 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
>
>> EVERTJAN - I AM GLAD WE NEVER OFFENDED ONE ANOTHER -- BUT WHY WOUL I
>> HAVE -- - TRIED ---
>
>1 I am not that easily offended,
>and certainly not if the other perty did not actively try to do that.
>
>2 the "try" part was a also said jokingly, as offending seems to me not
>being your [Dvora] habit.
>
>I think joking is such a neccessary part of Jewish culture, that
>soc.culture.jewish.moderated members should try pracitizing that even more
>often than at present.
>
>> IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU IN WAY THIS PAST YEAR -- I APOLOGIZE AND ASK YOUR
>> FORGIVNESS -
>
>That's why asking forgiveness for accidental offending is not even
>necessary,
Well, not for you perhaps, and not for other receiving parties
perhaps, but for a) those who are concerned about having perhaps
offended someone, and b) those who want to follow Jewish practice, it
is.
>though I certeinly do not deny you or anyone to do that.
>
>The accidentally offended should primarily look at him or herself why he or
>she is so easily offended.
You've said this before. I don't recall if I replied.
Don't assume it is always the victim who is the real cause of his own
offense.
There are plenty of accidental offenses committed that don't require
the recipient to be easily offended for them to be offended.
There are plenty of people who hold views, both accurate and
inaccurate, both malicious and non-malicious which are offensive to
others, views which they may express without considering where they
are are or who is listening.
A discussion group like this one may be of a different nature, because
people are aware that serious discussions will be held of big issues,
and that participants may have views which if expressed in purely
social surroundings would be insulting.
Let's imagine a few purely social occasions. "Oh, you're not teaching
your children to accept Jesus? You know that means they'll be going
to eternal hell, don't you?"; "Yes, I'm proud of my grandfather. Ever
since he was 6, he was a hard worker, diligent, trained hard, worked
hard, and rose to be a high commander in the Gestapo. He was
responsible for the evacuation of the Jews from Amesterdam and most of
the Netherlands.... No. I don't know what happened to them afterwards.
I only know they were evacuated."
Rather than my going to the trouble of giving various examples from
almost as strong to much milder, let me just say that words don't have
to be anywhere near as strong as my two examples to be truly insulting
of offensive. There are 100 possible levels of offensiveness, and one
doesn't have to be "easily offended" to be offended.
>Would there be a difference in European and Transponder Jewish stance on
>these two subjects?
I don't think so. I think it's more of a personal thing.
>Over here, [often covert] joking is still a form of art.
Believe it or not, people make jokes in the Western hemisphere too,
but the intention to make a joke is not the only factor that matters.
It depends if the recipient is in the mood for such joking and
understands it is joking. The halacha is that one shouldn't even
tease one's own child unless he knows it is meant for his fun and
unless he is enjoying it.
Harry Weiss
Actually the Chazon Ish ruled that they can be taken down and put back up
the same day.
> Meir
> "The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
mm
I am sure it was fun to write that, but no.
People can pretend to sell something they don't own, but they can't
sell it. They can make an honest mistake about what they own and
give the appearance, even to themselves, of selling something they
don't own, but they can't sell it.
If that is not enough of an answer, here's an alternate answer:
There was no need to use the word "legally" since that was the meaning
of "sell" that I was using. You knew that. You're answer makes it
clear that you knew that. Your quibbling was in error.
You could have explained to others what I meant, but correct what I
said, no.
Nick Cramer
> [ . . . ]
> Over here in Europe,
> little copper "stumbling stones" are put for that purpose in the
> pavement:
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein>
Thanks for that, Evertjan. I'm very pleased to see the spreading of these
Memorials, of which I was previusly unaware. Where might one in the USA
make a donation to this noble work?
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~
sheldonlg
Meir, you have no sense of humor.
--
Shelly
lee
First time I've heard about this, thanks.
Evertjan.
> "Evertjan." <exjxw.ha...@interxnl.net> wrote:
>> [ . . . ]
>> Over here in Europe,
>> little copper "stumbling stones" are put for that purpose in the
>> pavement:
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein>
>
> Thanks for that, Evertjan. I'm very pleased to see the spreading of these
> Memorials, of which I was previusly unaware. Where might one in the USA
> make a donation to this noble work?
I will be in New York next month, but won't take your donation. ;-(
Strange that the transponders [as seen from our side of the big pond] have
such difficulty transferring money from one bank to another, so easy
overhere, just using internet banking, and most often free of charge.
Please see the homepage of Gunter Dennis,
<http://www.stolpersteine.com/>
For a gift, you would probably best donate to one of the local activities
and contacting the local initiative as found by clicking a location on the
wiki page above, oer searching for "Stolpersteine" plus a locality name.
On 29 Nov 2007 stolpersteine were placed in a vilage niar here and I made
this page then [sorry, in Dutch and some Jiddisj]:
http://hannivoort.org/synagoge-
enschede.nl/bima/gedenksteentjesBorne291107.asp
where "Majn rue-plats" was recited.
Nick Cramer
Thanks for Gunter's URL, Evertjan. I've sent him an e-mail.