Kosher Commercial Kitchen
Matt Silberstein
area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
only like a day or two a month.
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
cindys
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:6h1kp0l27icdqm462...@4ax.com...
> Does anyone know of a kosher commercial kitchen in the New York City
> area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
> only like a day or two a month.
An Orthodox shul in need of money may be open to the idea, provided there is
a mashgiach present.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Micha Berger
message news:6h1kp0l27icdqm462...@4ax.com...
:> Does anyone know of a kosher commercial kitchen in the New York City
:> area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
:> only like a day or two a month.
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:55:43 +0000 (UTC), cindys
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
: An Orthodox shul in need of money may be open to the idea, provided there is
: a mashgiach present.
My brother's aufruf was last Shabbos as my father's shul, a shteibl he
has attended since the early 60s (my beris was there, my bar mitzvah,
my own aufruf, one of my sons' beris was there, etc...)
The rebbetzin (the older one who was married to the founding rabbi and
lives in the house that attaches to the shteible, not their daughter
who is married to the rav) made pies for the occasion. However, since
the mashgiach didn't check out the pies, the caterer couldn't serve them!
Don't worry, they were used at a reception at my parents' home.
Cultueral note: the problem was so clearcut, at least with hindsight,
even the rebbbetzin agreed he had no choice. Let's not get into "offending
old women" debates.
-mi
--
Micha Berger When we long for life without difficulties,
mi...@aishdas.org remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary
http://www.aishdas.org winds, and diamonds are made under pressure.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Peter Marshall
Ken Bloom
> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> message news:6h1kp0l27icdqm462...@4ax.com...
> :> Does anyone know of a kosher commercial kitchen in the New York City
> :> area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
> :> only like a day or two a month.
>
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:55:43 +0000 (UTC), cindys
> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> : An Orthodox shul in need of money may be open to the idea, provided
> : there is a mashgiach present.
>
> My brother's aufruf was last Shabbos
Mazel tov to your brother
--Ken Bloom
--
I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment.
See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures.
Matt Silberstein
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
Thanks, that is a good idea to pursue. I don't know much about the
rules for showing that a non-home is kosher. I guess that the
mashgiach does spot checking once they are happy you know what you are
doing.
cindys
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:55:43 +0000 (UTC), "cindys"
> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> >message news:6h1kp0l27icdqm462...@4ax.com...
> >> Does anyone know of a kosher commercial kitchen in the New York City
> >> area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
> >> only like a day or two a month.
> >----------
> >An Orthodox shul in need of money may be open to the idea, provided there
is
> >a mashgiach present.
>
> Thanks, that is a good idea to pursue. I don't know much about the
> rules for showing that a non-home is kosher. I guess that the
> mashgiach does spot checking once they are happy you know what you are
> doing.
>
Not necessarily. Often times, they require a mashgiach temidi (one that is
there the entire time). Afterward, depending on the who are the intended
recipients of the food, you would need to state that you had prepared the
food at Congregation Sha'arei Orthodox, and it was prepared under the
supervision Rabbi Moshe FrumJew. The intended recipients of the food would
need to feel confident that the food was not treifed in any way once it left
the facility where it was prepared. If they know you and trust you, your
word might be sufficient. Otherwise, they might require that containers be
taped closed at the synagogue and that the mashgiach write his name across
the tape.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
"Ken Bloom" <kab...@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.11.16....@ucdavis.edu...
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:58:04 +0000, Micha Berger wrote:
>
>> My brother's aufruf was last Shabbos
>
> Mazel tov to your brother
Ditto!
Susan
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>
> :> area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
> :> only like a day or two a month.
>
> : An Orthodox shul in need of money may be open to the idea,
> : provided there is a mashgiach present.
Thank you Micha for preserving all the attribute lines.
> My brother's aufruf was last Shabbos as my father's shul, a shteibl he
> has attended since the early 60s (my beris was there, my bar mitzvah,
> my own aufruf, one of my sons' beris was there, etc...)
I and my sister were born in Maimonides Hospital in Brooklyn. In
those days, it was known as Israel Zion Hospital. My three children
who were born in the States, were born in that same hospital.
> The rebbetzin (the older one who was married to the founding rabbi
> and lives in the house that attaches to the shteible, not their
> daughter who is married to the rav) made pies for the occasion.
> However, since the mashgiach didn't check out the pies, the caterer
> couldn't serve them!
Makes sense.
> Don't worry, they were used at a reception at my parents' home.
>
> Cultueral note: the problem was so clearcut, at least with hindsight,
> even the rebbbetzin agreed he had no choice. Let's not get into
> "offending old women" debates.
I was once for Shabbos at a hotel with a strict supervision (Adeh
Hachareidis). The person who gives the shiur brought a bag of pop
corn to the dining room. The mashgiach woulsdn't let him use it.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>
>>> My brother's aufruf was last Shabbos
>>
>> Mazel tov to your brother
>
> Ditto!
Me too.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>
>> >> area that I can rent by the day/hour? I would need it regularly, but
>> >> only like a day or two a month.
>> >----------
>> >An Orthodox shul in need of money may be open to the idea, provided there
>> >is a mashgiach present.
>>
>> Thanks, that is a good idea to pursue. I don't know much about the
>> rules for showing that a non-home is kosher. I guess that the
>> mashgiach does spot checking once they are happy you know what you are
>> doing.
> -----
> Not necessarily. Often times, they require a mashgiach temidi (one that is
> there the entire time). Afterward, depending on the who are the intended
> recipients of the food, you would need to state that you had prepared the
> food at Congregation Sha'arei Orthodox, and it was prepared under the
> supervision Rabbi Moshe FrumJew. The intended recipients of the food would
> need to feel confident that the food was not treifed in any way once it left
> the facility where it was prepared. If they know you and trust you, your
> word might be sufficient. Otherwise, they might require that containers be
> taped closed at the synagogue and that the mashgiach write his name across
> the tape.
Hey, you're using that name (Moshe) again! :-)
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Mazal Tov to Micha's brother !
Josh
>
> Susan
>
cindys
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2004Nov1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> > -----
> > Not necessarily. Often times, they require a mashgiach temidi (one that
is
> > there the entire time). Afterward, depending on the who are the intended
> > recipients of the food, you would need to state that you had prepared
the
> > food at Congregation Sha'arei Orthodox, and it was prepared under the
> > supervision Rabbi Moshe FrumJew. The intended recipients of the food
would
> > need to feel confident that the food was not treifed in any way once it
left
> > the facility where it was prepared. If they know you and trust you, your
> > word might be sufficient. Otherwise, they might require that containers
be
> > taped closed at the synagogue and that the mashgiach write his name
across
> > the tape.
>
> Hey, you're using that name (Moshe) again! :-)
Why not? It's a great name!
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Nick
news:zUsmd.159$Uf....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Sometimes non-Jewish chefs will cook a dinner at a function, in which case
everything that they do will have to be supervised by a shomer (or
mashgiach).
At my shul, only 3 women members are allowed by the rabbi to supervise the
use of kitchen. So it is inconceivable unless the rabbi of the shul was
familiar with you and that you we suitably observant and familiar with the
rules of kashrut that he would let you use the shul kitchen unsupervised.
My father attends a club at his synagogue of an afternoon. A friend was in
charge of the catering arrangements ie tea and cakes or biscuits. The
friend, was in fact a domestic science teacher and she is rather proud of
her skills in this area.
One afternoon the rabbi was hovering around the kitchen. My dad's friend,
who is not shy, said to the rabbi "Are you checking up on me?". He replied
"Well, that's my job".
These things change. My parents have been members of the shul for 50 years,
and the previous rabbi had never done this. Members of your own shul were
considered like family.
Nick
Eliyahu Rooff
"Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cnhl4n$ehq$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> "
And yet, as anyone with a non-observant family member knows, one can be
a gourmet chef capable of cooking in a 5-star restaurant and still treif
up a kitchen in minutes. Much easier for the rabbi to prevent the
problem than to "clean up" after it happens.
Eliyahu
cindys
>
> My father attends a club at his synagogue of an afternoon. A friend was in
> charge of the catering arrangements ie tea and cakes or biscuits. The
> friend, was in fact a domestic science teacher and she is rather proud of
> her skills in this area.
>
> One afternoon the rabbi was hovering around the kitchen. My dad's friend,
> who is not shy, said to the rabbi "Are you checking up on me?". He replied
> "Well, that's my job".
>
> These things change. My parents have been members of the shul for 50
years,
> and the previous rabbi had never done this. Members of your own shul were
> considered like family.
It sounds as if your father or his friend took this as some sort of personal
affront. It's not as if anyone said the woman wasn't nice or well-meaning or
intelligent . Kashrus is completely impersonal, and everyone expects to be
supervised, and there is nothing insulting there at all. Personally, I would
not feel comfortable in a strange kosher kitchen without supervision. I'm
very meticulous about kashrus, yet I nearly treifed my friend's kitchen
simply because I wasn't familiar with it. (I have told the story before
about how I grabbed a platter out of the fleishig cabinet for a cake, only
to find out later that the platter was in fact milchig and it had
inadvertently been placed in the wrong cabinet). My friend laughed and told
me that she doesn't cook anywhere, including her own sister's house, without
supervision simply because it is not her kitchen, and she is not 100%
familiar with it. Another incident: The kitchen at our community day school
is milchig. I was chairing the annual PTA barbecue (a meat meal being cooked
outside). The kitchen door was really supposed to be locked, but we left it
unlocked so we could access papergoods, etc. Big mistake. I watched it like
a hawk for 2 hours. When the barbecue was over, and I was satisfied
everything had gone according to schedule, I took a 5-minute break. I came
back to find greasy, meaty barbecue spatulas all over the milchig counter
(which had to be kashered by cleansing with a corrosive substance). Someone
had asked his friend to help grill hamburgers. The friend didn't know the
kitchen was milchig and brought the utensils into the kitchen to be washed
(in the milchig sink). It happens.Your father's friend should have been glad
that the rabbi was doing his job.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Fiona
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
> "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
Heck, I've been machmir about kashrut for nigh on twenty years, but just
yesterday, in a moment of temporary insanity, I managed to treif up one of
my own meaty spoons :-(
Fiona
Susan Cohen
"Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10ppdpe...@corp.supernews.com...
> was in
>> charge of the catering arrangements ie tea and cakes or biscuits. The
>> friend, was in fact a domestic science teacher and she is rather proud
> of
>> her skills in this area.
>>
>> One afternoon the rabbi was hovering around the kitchen. My dad's
> friend,
>> who is not shy, said to the rabbi "Are you checking up on me?". He
> replied
>> "Well, that's my job".
>>
>> These things change. My parents have been members of the shul for 50
> years,
>> and the previous rabbi had never done this. Members of your own shul
> were
>> considered like family.
>>
> And yet, as anyone with a non-observant family member knows, one can be
> a gourmet chef capable of cooking in a 5-star restaurant and still treif
> up a kitchen in minutes.
If that much!
Susan
Marmarali100
>From: "Fiona" fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk
>Heck, I've been machmir about kashrut for nigh on twenty years, but just
>yesterday, in a moment of temporary insanity, I managed to treif up one of
>my own meaty spoons :-(
I would call it a normal human event bereft of insanity. Biblically it has no
effect. Rabbinically it does, which is why they also made the relatively
trivial remedy of hag'ala.
This thread makes Kashrut sound more complicated than operating a clean room at
Intel. Once someone showed one of my relatives that his knife had a nick
under a magnifying glass. he replied that the Tora was not given to mal'akhim,
and thus the shehita is kasher.
There is no legal basis for haveing a milk sink and a meat sink. Even Muram
allows milk and meat pots and plates to be washed in hot water in the same tub
if ashes (or soap) are present.
How would you need a milk sink therefore, or a meat counter? Once it is washed
with soap, any subsequent contact is noten ta'am lifgam.
The Talmud of Israel in Bikkurim offers that making forbidden the permitted is
just as bad as the reverse.
Ronnie
cindys
"Marmarali100" <marmar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041119021616...@mb-m23.aol.com...
snip
>
> There is no legal basis for haveing a milk sink and a meat sink. Even
Muram
> allows milk and meat pots and plates to be washed in hot water in the same
tub
> if ashes (or soap) are present.
Name one modern posek who permits this.
> How would you need a milk sink therefore, or a meat counter?
1. Because we don't pasken this way.
2. Because in commercial establishments, separate milk/meat areas or
separate kitchens function as a safeguard against inadvertent treifing by
the ignorant. When a variety of people are in and out of a kitchen all day
long, life is a lot simpler when the kitchen is 100% dairy. There is no
reason that meat products or utensils need to be in the dairy kitchen at any
time.
>Once it is washed
> with soap, any subsequent contact is noten ta'am lifgam.
The counter was washed with bleach. Noten ta'am lifgam.
>
> The Talmud of Israel in Bikkurim offers that making forbidden the
permitted is
> just as bad as the reverse.
The Talmud of Babylonia in Makkos discusses penalties for consuming milk and
meat together.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Julie" <txj...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:XFend.7559$KQ2....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
| "Susan Cohen" <fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
| news:cnjrfm$3vv$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
| >
| > "Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:10ppdpe...@corp.supernews.com...
one can be
| > > a gourmet chef capable of cooking in a 5-star restaurant and
still treif
| > > up a kitchen in minutes.
| >
| > If that much!
|
| --
But we aren't judging here -- just noting relative probabilities as
per Murphy's Law. :-)
Eliyahu
Marmarali100
>Date: 11/19/2004 9:43 PM Malay Peninsula Standard Time
>>Even
>>Muram
>> allows milk and meat pots and plates >>to be washed in hot water in the same
>>tub
>> if ashes (or soap) are present.
>Name one modern posek who permits this.
Everyone who allows one dishwasher. Hakham Shaul Matloub Abadi, R. Shloush,
and hundreds more. The first rabbi actually served on a fully functioning bet
din in Halab.
>> How would you need a milk sink therefore, or a meat counter?
>
>1. Because we don't pasken this way.
WE do. You do not. Your WE is not Judaism. My WE is Talmudic Law.
>2. Because in commercial establishments, separate milk/meat areas or
>separate kitchens function as a safeguard against inadvertent treifing by
>the ignorant.
But that is not the law. In some places we are not all ignoramuses or new to
the Tora. Recall why a habura of gerim is not allowed for the pesah.
>>Once it is washed
>> with soap, any subsequent contact is noten ta'am lifgam.
>
>The counter was washed with bleach. >Noten ta'am lifgam.
But the "corrosive substace" was not at all required. Soap was fine.
>The Talmud of Babylonia in Makkos discusses penalties for consuming milk and
>meat together.
So? You think that is a point of some kind? Address the ISSUE. You endorse
forbidding much more than forbidden consumption of meat and milk. Stop being
DEFENSIVE, and just admit you have endorsed "frumkeit" gone wild. I found a
source stating that this is as bad as permitting the forbidden. No pilpulizing
will undo this.
Once again, for all the "good" you imagine this does, it turns off anyone with
sanity and a natural repopulsion to neurosis, and leads to bizayon of the Tora.
Ronnie
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote
>> Another incident: The kitchen at our community day school is
>> milchig. I was chairing the annual PTA barbecue (a meat meal being
>> cooked outside). The kitchen door was really supposed to be locked,
>> but we left it unlocked so we could access papergoods, etc. Big
>> mistake. I watched it like a hawk for 2 hours. When the barbecue
>> was over, and I was satisfied everything had gone according to
>> schedule, I took a 5-minute break. I came back to find greasy,
>> meaty barbecue spatulas all over the milchig counter (which had
>> to be kashered by cleansing with a corrosive substance). Someone
>> had asked his friend to help grill hamburgers. The friend didn't
>> know the kitchen was milchig and brought the utensils into the
>> kitchen to be washed (in the milchig sink). It happens.
>
> Heck, I've been machmir about kashrut for nigh on twenty years, but
> just yesterday, in a moment of temporary insanity, I managed to
> treif up one of my own meaty spoons :-(
My Rav used to say that if a person never has kashrut questions or
problems in the kitchen, then that person is not really keeping
kosher! IOW, there will _always_ be "mistakes".
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
> >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
>>From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
>>Date: 11/19/2004 9:43 PM Malay Peninsula Standard Time
>
>>>Even
>>>Muram
>>> allows milk and meat pots and plates >>to be washed in hot water in the
>>> same
>>>tub
>>> if ashes (or soap) are present.
>
>
>
>>Name one modern posek who permits this.
>
> Everyone who allows one dishwasher. Hakham Shaul Matloub Abadi, R.
> Shloush,
> and hundreds more. The first rabbi actually served on a fully functioning
> bet
> din in Halab.
And there were dishwashers in Halab? As for R'Shloush, he is not considered
very reliable due to his disastrous rulings on personal status related
cases.
OBD and IS.
cindys
> >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
> >From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
> >Date: 11/19/2004 9:43 PM Malay Peninsula Standard Time
>
and
> >meat together.
>
> So? You think that is a point of some kind? Address the ISSUE.
Yes. I was making a point. You said: 'The Talmud of Israel in Bikkurim
offers that making forbidden the permitted is just as bad as the reverse,"
and my point was that the last I knew, it was generally not okay for an
individual to open up the talmud, pull out a generic statement, and then use
this statement to pasken for himself about a specific situation, especially
in a manner which is at odds with the currently accepted halachic view. If
you want to do so, be my guest, but don't berate me for not following suit.
That is the issue.
>You endorse
> forbidding much more than forbidden consumption of meat and milk. Stop
being
> DEFENSIVE, and just admit you have endorsed "frumkeit" gone wild. I found
a
> source stating that this is as bad as permitting the forbidden.
Sorry, I just can't get all worked up about the fact that the community day
school wants to keep a dairy-only kitchen. Most poskim do not consider
separate commercial kitchens to be "frumkeit gone wild." I doubt very much
you have found a source which forbids separate kitchens on the basis of
"frumkeit gone wild" (or any other basis).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Larry Lennhoff
> "Marmarali100" <marmar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041119021616...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> > >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
> > >From: "Fiona" fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk
>
> snip
> >
> > There is no legal basis for haveing a milk sink and a meat sink. Even
> Muram
> > allows milk and meat pots and plates to be washed in hot water in the same
> tub
> > if ashes (or soap) are present.
>
> Name one modern posek who permits this.
>
http://www.kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=5948&highlight=sink
I don't hold by Rabbi Abadi, personally. I think his views are outside
my community's standards. But it seems to me he has consistant
halachic standards by Micha's defintion - he is stricter than most in
some cases (see cream cheese) and more lenient than most in others
(here, for example).
Kol Tuv
Larry
cindys
"Larry Lennhoff" <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6262687f.04112...@posting.google.com...
Read what other posters have written about his views [in this thread].
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
marmarali
> "Marmarali100" <marmar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041120090943...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> > >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
> >>From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
> >>Date: 11/19/2004 9:43 PM Malay Peninsula Standard Time
>
> >>>Even
> >>>Muram
> >>> allows milk and meat pots and plates >>to be washed in hot water in the
> >>> same
> >>>tub
> >>> if ashes (or soap) are present.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Name one modern posek who permits this.
> >
> > Everyone who allows one dishwasher. Hakham Shaul Matloub Abadi, R.
> > Shloush,
> > and hundreds more. The first rabbi actually served on a fully functioning
> > bet
> > din in Halab.
>
> And there were dishwashers in Halab?
Silly retort. And everyone who served on a bet din in Halab had to
stay there until he died?
> As for R'Shloush, he is not considered
> very reliable due to his disastrous rulings on personal status related
> cases.
>
Have no idea what you are talking about. Considered reliable by WHOM?
Moreover, the LAW controls, not who some black hats SAY is "reliable"
for their own aggrandizement. I'll take the LAW over your black hat
'amme ha'ares anyday.
> OBD and IS.
Ronnie
Marmarali100
>Read what other posters have written about his views [in this thread].
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
Where? Backon said "he is wrong" but that was a totally different Abadi.
Why do we care what other posters say? We shoudl care about the law and whether
their points shed any light on it.
Get it staright. Better one sink and clear mind than thirteen sinks, seventeen
"leshem yihud qudsha"s and eighty-eight new humras with a fuzzy mind.
Ronnie
cindys
> >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
> >From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
>
> >Read what other posters have written about his views [in this thread].
> >Best regards,
> >---Cindy S.
>
> Where? Backon said "he is wrong" but that was a totally different Abadi.
Mea culpa.
>
> Why do we care what other posters say?
Because that's the purpose of a newsgroup. People who aren't interested in
what the other posters have to say are not posting here.
>We shoudl care about the law and whether
> their points shed any light on it.
>
> Get it staright. Better one sink and clear mind than thirteen sinks,
seventeen
> "leshem yihud qudsha"s and eighty-eight new humras with a fuzzy mind.
>
Do you really think I have a *fuzzy* mind, Ronnie?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
> Get it staright. Better one sink and clear mind than thirteen sinks,
> seventeen
> "leshem yihud qudsha"s and eighty-eight new humras with a fuzzy mind.
What do you have against shitas Creedmoor, Ronnie? 13 sinks for the yud
gimmel midos is very praiseworthy, especially as the Admou"r's cousin is a
plumber.
OBD
Marmarali100
>From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
>Do you really think I have a *fuzzy* mind, Ronnie?
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
As regards the sources of LAW, yes. As reagrds the value of X as oppsed to
what Mr. A said *about* X, yes.
As a general rule, of course not.
Ronnie
Marmarali100
>Yes. I was making a point. You said: 'The Talmud of Israel in Bikkurim
>offers that making forbidden the permitted is just as bad as the reverse,"
Yes.
>and my point was that the last I knew, it was generally not okay for an
>individual to open up the talmud, pull out a generic statement, and then use
>this statement to pasken for himself
This has nothing at all to do with what you said. You cited ot makkoth re: the
general issur of basar wehalabh.
The statement is true. I'll judge whether I cavalierly pull out a generic
statement as you say or whether I actually have some general erudition.
>especially
>in a manner which is at odds with the currently accepted halachic view.
Accepted by whom? More JW ethnocentircity. Your security in "accepted" is at
odds with the Talumd.
Lo zu hadderekh.
>you want to do so, be my guest, but don't >berate me for not following suit.
Bull. I criticize you for speaking nonsense. You should be careful whom you
judge. I am not you.
Ronnie
Yisroel Markov
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>
>"Marmarali100" <marmar...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20041120090943...@mb-m04.aol.com...
>> >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
>> >From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
>> >Date: 11/19/2004 9:43 PM Malay Peninsula Standard Time
>>
>> >The Talmud of Babylonia in Makkos discusses penalties for consuming milk
>and
>> >meat together.
>>
>> So? You think that is a point of some kind? Address the ISSUE.
>
>Yes. I was making a point. You said: 'The Talmud of Israel in Bikkurim
>offers that making forbidden the permitted is just as bad as the reverse,"
>and my point was that the last I knew, it was generally not okay for an
>individual to open up the talmud, pull out a generic statement, and then use
>this statement to pasken for himself about a specific situation, especially
>in a manner which is at odds with the currently accepted halachic view. If
>you want to do so, be my guest, but don't berate me for not following suit.
>That is the issue.
Well, Cindy, your point was unclear, IMHO. Now that you've elaborated,
it's clear, but previously it was not.
>>You endorse
>> forbidding much more than forbidden consumption of meat and milk. Stop
>being
>> DEFENSIVE, and just admit you have endorsed "frumkeit" gone wild. I found
>a
>> source stating that this is as bad as permitting the forbidden.
>
>Sorry, I just can't get all worked up about the fact that the community day
>school wants to keep a dairy-only kitchen. Most poskim do not consider
>separate commercial kitchens to be "frumkeit gone wild." I doubt very much
>you have found a source which forbids separate kitchens on the basis of
>"frumkeit gone wild" (or any other basis).
IMHO the issue here is not forbidding extra precautions, but rather
being aware that that's what they are, rather than a d'oraita law.
This awareness is frequently missing in how people address these
things.
>>Once again, for all the "good" you imagine this does, it turns off anyone with
>>sanity and a natural repopulsion to neurosis, and leads to bizayon of the Tora.
Ronnie, I don't think that this applies very widely. Subject to what I
said about awareness, IMHO this not always "frumkeit gone wild," but
simply a desire to simplify one's life. I will once again trot out my
rabbi's experience. When he was a yeshiva bohur studying the laws of
kashrut, he asked his teacher: "Looks like it's OK halakhically to
have one knife in the kitchen, with the closest third being fleishig,
the third at the end being milkhig, and the middle third pareve?" The
teacher's answer was that he was right, but 1) who wants to bother
being careful with which third to cut, and 2) which rabbi wants to go
crazy fielding questions from people actually trying to do this?
The way my rabbi puts it, there's a safety margin in current psak on
consumer kashrut, put there deliberately so that community rabbis
actually have some time for things other than kashrut questions. Or
put it another way: it's like having Pesah pots and pans rather than
kashering your regular ones every year. The latter is perfectly fine,
and that was the way it was done in poor shtetlakh, but who wants to
bother now?
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
marmarali
Does he have copper pipes or PVC?
Ronnie
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>>"Marmarali100" <marmar...@aol.com> wrote in message
But why berate Cindy for this supposed lack?
>>>Once again, for all the "good" you imagine this does, it turns
>>>off anyone with sanity and a natural repopulsion to neurosis,
>>>and leads to bizayon of the Tora.
>
> Ronnie, I don't think that this applies very widely. Subject to what I
> said about awareness, IMHO this not always "frumkeit gone wild," but
> simply a desire to simplify one's life. I will once again trot out my
> rabbi's experience. When he was a yeshiva bohur studying the laws of
> kashrut, he asked his teacher: "Looks like it's OK halakhically to
> have one knife in the kitchen, with the closest third being fleishig,
> the third at the end being milkhig, and the middle third pareve?" The
> teacher's answer was that he was right, but 1) who wants to bother
> being careful with which third to cut, and 2) which rabbi wants to go
> crazy fielding questions from people actually trying to do this?
>
> The way my rabbi puts it, there's a safety margin in current psak on
> consumer kashrut, put there deliberately so that community rabbis
> actually have some time for things other than kashrut questions.
Thank you Yisroel for injecting a bit of sanity here.
> Or put it another way: it's like having Pesah pots and pans rather
> than kashering your regular ones every year. The latter is
> perfectly fine, and that was the way it was done in poor shtetlakh,
> but who wants to bother now?
We had a rebbe in High School who would kasher one spoon every year
just so that halacha should not be forgotten.
FTR, here in Israel there are many who kasher utensils for Pesach.
You see big vats set up in many places for this purpose.
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
> Accepted by whom? More JW ethnocentircity.
By all of us who do not live in Deal/Long Branch, Avenue S, Ocean Parkway,
and Panama, and who hold by sixteen ounces to the pound as opposed to
twelve.
OBD
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
> Have no idea what you are talking about. Considered reliable by WHOM?
> Moreover, the LAW controls, not who some black hats SAY is "reliable"
> for their own aggrandizement. I'll take the LAW over your black hat
> 'amme ha'ares anyday.
I fought the LAW and the LAW won!
OBD
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
news:28430d24.04112...@posting.google.com...
PVC. No metal pipes or metal instruments of any sort allowed in Creedmoor.
Besides, the gabbai of the Aram Soba minyan already sold all the copper
pipes last week.
OBD
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
"Looks like it's OK halakhically to
> have one knife in the kitchen, with the closest third being fleishig,
> the third at the end being milkhig, and the middle third pareve?" The
> teacher's answer was that he was right, but 1) who wants to bother
> being careful with which third to cut, and 2) which rabbi wants to go
> crazy fielding questions from people actually trying to do this?
This is the practice of the B'nei Drusoy community. I field such questions
twenty times an hour, on the hour, and I have yet to go crazy. Really.
OBD
cindys
snip
Cindy wrote:
> >Sorry, I just can't get all worked up about the fact that the community
day
> >school wants to keep a dairy-only kitchen. Most poskim do not consider
> >separate commercial kitchens to be "frumkeit gone wild." I doubt very
much
> >you have found a source which forbids separate kitchens on the basis of
> >"frumkeit gone wild" (or any other basis).
>
Yisroel wrote:
> IMHO the issue here is not forbidding extra precautions, but rather
> being aware that that's what they are, rather than a d'oraita law.
> This awareness is frequently missing in how people address these
> things.
>
Ronnie wrote:
> >>Once again, for all the "good" you imagine this does, it turns off
anyone with
> >>sanity and a natural repopulsion to neurosis, and leads to bizayon of
the Tora.
>
Yisroel wrote:
> Ronnie, I don't think that this applies very widely. Subject to what I
> said about awareness, IMHO this not always "frumkeit gone wild," but
> simply a desire to simplify one's life. I will once again trot out my
> rabbi's experience. When he was a yeshiva bohur studying the laws of
> kashrut, he asked his teacher: "Looks like it's OK halakhically to
> have one knife in the kitchen, with the closest third being fleishig,
> the third at the end being milkhig, and the middle third pareve?" The
> teacher's answer was that he was right, but 1) who wants to bother
> being careful with which third to cut, and 2) which rabbi wants to go
> crazy fielding questions from people actually trying to do this?
>
> The way my rabbi puts it, there's a safety margin in current psak on
> consumer kashrut, put there deliberately so that community rabbis
> actually have some time for things other than kashrut questions. Or
> put it another way: it's like having Pesah pots and pans rather than
> kashering your regular ones every year. The latter is perfectly fine,
> and that was the way it was done in poor shtetlakh, but who wants to
> bother now?
>
---------
I agree with you, and here's something that will make Ronnie very happy: I
once asked a very frum, black-hat rabbi, why couldn't I use the same
dishwasher for both meat and dairy (not at the same time), if I handwashed
all my dishes thoroughly before putting them in the dishwasher and ensured
that there was no food residue left on any of them? He responded that I
could but not to ever tell anyone that he told me that. [And now Ronnie will
respond that I actually can wash meat and dairy dishes together, assuming
there is soap in the dishwasher because of noten ta'am lifgam and that I
have a fuzzy mind and don't understand THE LAW and that I should stop
quoting local rabbis and start quoting primary source material].
(Disclaimer: This is not a psak. CYLOR)
(FTR, of course I do not put dairy dishes in my meat-designated dishwasher,
as it's not the community standard, and no one would ever eat at my house if
I did. Another example of "frumkeit gone wild." Also, I've stopped
handwashing the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher - too much work
:-).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:co2ug4$s6s$2...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
> If you handwash your dishes thoroughly first what is the dishwasher
> for?
"Sterilization" (aka obsessive compulsive behavior :-)
> (I have exactly zero dishwashing machines)
> BTW I though noten taam lifgam only applied if the dishes hadn't been
> used for 24 hours.
So who washes the dishes right away? (It takes the dishwasher a while to get
filled.)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Henry Goodman
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TM1pd.18202$AL5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> "Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:41a22588...@News.individual.net...
>
> snip
> >
If you handwash your dishes thoroughly first what is the dishwasher
for?
(I have exactly zero dishwashing machines)
BTW I though noten taam lifgam only applied if the dishes hadn't been
used for 24 hours.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
cindys
>
-----------
Lol. Not exactly. We run the dishwasher when it gets full. Running it is not
a problem; it's putting the dishes away. I admit there have been occasions
when the clean dishes went directly from the dishwasher back to the table
without having been in the cupboard in between ;-) (Until I can make a
proper leyning on the gemara, I don't have any business wasting my time
stacking dishes!)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Henry Goodman
--
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>>
>> dishwasher for?
>
> "Sterilization" (aka obsessive compulsive behavior :-)
I read a cute story. This fellows wife went on a trip for two weeks.
He was very careful to wash the dishes right after the meal for
cleanliness purposes. The next time hshe left, he had read a book
about sterilization. When she came home, she found the refrigerator
full of unwashed dishes!
cindys
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2004Nov2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > "Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> >>
> >> If you handwash your dishes thoroughly first what is the
> >> dishwasher for?
> >
> > "Sterilization" (aka obsessive compulsive behavior :-)
>
> I read a cute story. This fellows wife went on a trip for two weeks.
> He was very careful to wash the dishes right after the meal for
> cleanliness purposes. The next time hshe left, he had read a book
> about sterilization. When she came home, she found the refrigerator
> full of unwashed dishes!
>
I knew someone in college who did that when he didn't feel like washing the
dishes right away, so it may be more prevalent than we realize. If the
countertop is filled with unwashed dishes (like right after Friday night
dinner), a good way to avoid having to look at the mess all day Saturday is
to hide the dishes in the oven. The only problem is remembering to take them
out Saturday night before attempting to use the oven.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
>
> "Sterilization" (aka obsessive compulsive behavior :-)
Do your dishes reproduce if you do not put them in the dishwasher?
OBD
cindys
"Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)" <stour...@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:30m5dcF...@uni-berlin.de...
Only the unwashed ones :-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy S.
> >Subject: Re: Kosher Commercial Kitchen
> >From: "cindys" cst...@rochester.rr.com
> >Date: 11/22/2004 4:20 A.M. Malay Peninsula Standard Tim
>
> >Yes. I was making a point. You said: 'The Talmud of Israel in Bikkurim
> >offers that making forbidden the permitted is just as bad as the reverse,"
>
> Yes.
>
> >and my point was that the last I knew, it was generally not okay for an
> >individual to open up the talmud, pull out a generic statement, and then use
> >this statement to pasken for himself
>
> This has nothing at all to do with what you said. You cited ot makkoth re: the
> general issur of basar wehalabh.
>
> The statement is true. I'll judge whether I cavalierly pull out a generic
> statement as you say or whether I actually have some general erudition.
Well, good. Then, I will do the same. I suggest that every Jew should
pasken for himself directly from talmud.
>
> >especially
> >in a manner which is at odds with the currently accepted halachic view.
>
> Accepted by whom? More JW ethnocentircity.
What is "JW ethnocentricity?"
>Your security in "accepted" is at
> odds with the Talumd.
>
> Lo zu hadderekh.
>
> >you want to do so, be my guest, but don't >berate me for not following suit.
>
> Bull. I criticize you for speaking nonsense. You should be careful whom you
> judge. I am not you.
>
And I will advise you to do the same. No, you are not me. You don't
know anything about me. You should also be careful whom you judge.
In another post, you wrote that my mind was "fuzzy" with regard to the
sources of law. I would appreciate if you could elaborate on that
statement. You also stated that I was fuzzy as regards the value of X
as opposed to what Mr. A said *about* X, yes. If you are suggesting my
name is R****t, I can assure you it is not.
Some of us were not fortunate enough to have been provided with a
yeshiva education on a silver platter and have had to overcome
numerous obstacles to learn 90% of what we know on our own. It is not
so easy to come from a secular background, teach one's self Hebrew,
learn original source material on one's own, be discouraged every step
of the way, be repeatedly denied chavrusas (even when they are
available), because the rabbi keeps telling them they are "not allowed
to learn with women," not have any classes available and those which
are available are classes like the "ladies halacha class" where the
rabbi reads and translates the KSA, etc.
So, for example, if you are criticizing me for citing Rabbi Forst's
summary of the halachos of "mezonos bread' rather than citing the
shulchan aruch directly, it is because I only have so many hours in a
day, and the question of whether or not I need to wash on mezonos
bread is not my #1 area of interest, and since I am not yet at a point
where I can pick up the shulchan aruch and read it like a novel, it is
much easier to simply wash on the bread (as Rabbi Forst says) and use
my precious time to focus on that which interests me more (improving
my ability to learn talmud). If this is not what you were referring
to, then please explain.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Marmarali100
>Date: 11/25/2004 1:51 PM Eastern Standard Time
>And I will advise you to do the same. No, you are not me. You don't
>know anything about me.
I know what you say and I measure it against what I know.
>In another post, you wrote that my mind was "fuzzy" with regard to the
>sources of law.
You asked and I answered. If you wanted a particular answer you should have so
stated.
>I would appreciate if you could elaborate on that
>statement.
See above.
>You also stated that I was fuzzy as regards the value of X
>as opposed to what Mr. A said *about* X, yes. If you are suggesting my
>name is R****t, I can assure you it is not.
I think I have your name right.
>If this is not what you were referring
>to, then please explain.
I could not refer to your Forst business as this is the first I heard of it. I
do not recall without looking back what precisely I was referring to.
Ronnie
Grand Rabbi Onan ben Drusoy MD (Morally Defunct)
You mean only the schimmel on the unwashed ones!
OBD