Pronouncing Challah as "Challi"
Mikey
"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
I seem to find that pronounciation mostly prevalent in New York and
Pittsburgh, e.g., "Can you stop at the bakery on the way home and pick up
the challi for tomorrow night?"
The word certainly doesn't come from the original Hebrew, since the closest
word I can think of is "Chalifah", which means suit. There does not seem
to be an Ashkenazic vs. Sephardic discrepancy, since that would be more
like "challow". The only origin I can think of is that the long-E sound at
the end of the word is an exaggeration of the Yiddish inflection, or "eh"-
sound, heard at the end of words with a Kametz. Less frequently, I have
heard matzah pronounced "matzi", but IMHO that word sounds too much like
something else not so friendly to Judaism.
-------------------
Mikey
aveeny...@aol.com
(wipe out the Taliban to reply)
BAC...@vms.huji.ac.il
>From: Mikey <aveeny...@aol.com>
>Subject:Pronouncing Challah as "Challi"
>Date: 11 Oct 2001 23:48:35 GMT
>Message-ID:<Xns9137C2601170...@207.172.3.55>
>Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
>"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
From Jews who had zero backgrounds in Hebrew :-)
Seriously, NO Jew with a strong Jewish education calls "challah" CHALLI.
Josh
meirm...@erols.com
<aveeny...@aol.com> posted:
>Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
>"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
I have called it an accent or a dialect. I hadn't thought of calling
it a tradition, but I guess it meets the definition in that it is a
pronunciation passed from generation to generation.
My informal survey traces it to Lithuania but I have neither pinned it
down nor determined the breadth of it. My grandparents were from
Aysheshuk and somewhere else near Vilna. My other grandparents were
from Grodno and I think they said it too, but my limited survey hasn't
found anyone else from there.
>
>I seem to find that pronounciation mostly prevalent in New York and
>Pittsburgh, e.g., "Can you stop at the bakery on the way home and pick up
>the challi for tomorrow night?"
I don't have enough information to pin this down either. I certainly
heard it in NYC and New Castle, Pa. which as you know is 50 miles NW
of Pittsburgh. How much my granparents and their kids and others
like them could influence local pronunciation I don't know. Nor do I
know how our friends pronounced the words in the US or in Europe, or
where in Europe they came from.
>The word certainly doesn't come from the original Hebrew, since the closest
>word I can think of is "Chalifah", which means suit. There does not seem
>to be an Ashkenazic vs. Sephardic discrepancy, since that would be more
>like "challow". The only origin I can think of is that the long-E sound at
>the end of the word is an exaggeration of the Yiddish inflection, or "eh"-
>sound, heard at the end of words with a Kametz. Less frequently, I have
>heard matzah pronounced "matzi", but IMHO that word sounds too much like
>something else not so friendly to Judaism.
I can't imagine what you're referring to about not friendly (email me
please) but you're actually right about the reason. Whether it is
exaggeration of a particular Yiddish inflection, or a Yiddish
pronunciation of its own, it is exactly that. You might ask people
who pronounce it challie, how they say pushkie, kishkie, shiksie,
polkie, fligelie, shpilkies and a bunch more I can't think of right
now. (Yes, I know they are spelled with ayins, but it's still the
same thing.)
It has nothing to do with knowledge of Hebrew or Judaism, and conveys
no negative implication about such knowledge. It is about Yiddish
pronunciation. Next we are going to hear that those who say Ribboynu
shel Oylam don't know Hebrew and Judaism.
Coincidentally matzi was not in my list. I had never heard it until
this past July, when I visited my father's sister's boy (67 y.o.) and
I think he said it (I have to find my notes). He definitely said
bimi. That's my father's side of the family, but my mother's side
said challie too.
When I was in grammar school and heard Deck the Halls with Balls of
Challie, I couldn't help but think about challie a little wet and made
into little balls. Even after I learned about the plant holly, my old
image remains, and that is still what I think of when I hear it.
Posted and mailed.
>
>-------------------
>Mikey
>aveeny...@aol.com
>(wipe out the Taliban to reply)
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
animzmirot
<BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL> wrote in message
news:9q5bkh$6su$1...@condor.nj.org...
> X-News: hujicc soc.culture.jewish.moderated:57414
>
> >From: Mikey <aveeny...@aol.com>
> >Subject:Pronouncing Challah as "Challi"
> >Date: 11 Oct 2001 23:48:35 GMT
> >Message-ID:<Xns9137C2601170...@207.172.3.55>
>
> >Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing
the word Challah as
> >"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
>
>
> From Jews who had zero backgrounds in Hebrew :-)
>
> Seriously, NO Jew with a strong Jewish education calls
"challah" CHALLI.
I believe it's a regional thing. I've seen it printed up in
a shomer shabbat bakery in LA as Challi. And I also think
it's generational. My grandparents (Z"l), who would be in
their 90's if they were still alive, lived in LA, and they
also said Challi, as did their friends and acquaintences. My
grandfather was many things, including the funniest man
alive, but he had an extremely strong Jewish education and
spoke something like 9 languages, including Hebrew, Yiddish,
Russian, French, and a bunch of baltic languages I know
nothing about. I honestly believe that you're being harsh
and judgemental by making such a statement without knowing
other people's experiences.
Marjorie, who says Challah
Art Werschulz
I remember my dad a"h using the term "challie". He (and I) are
natives of Louisville (yes they do have Jews there) KY.
--
Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y?
Internet: a...@cs.columbia.edu<a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet: Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325
GAN EDEN WINES
"Art Werschulz" <a...@cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:ylahet5...@smolyak.cs.columbia.edu...
> Hi.
>
> I remember my dad a"h using the term "challie". He (and I) are
> natives of Louisville (yes they do have Jews there) KY.
BS"D
Yes, they do. My mom and bubbi, as 2 examples. I got out of there as soon
as I could. I'll probably be going back for Pesach this year, however.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
R
>
> Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
> "Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
It may be similar to many nouns that are given an 'ee' sound at
the end to indicate affection either for the thing that the noun
represents or more commonly, for the person being addressed.
For example: In some families, small children are instructed to
pick up their "toysies from the floree." When I was a small
child, the chicken soup we ate on Friday nite was called
'soupie.' On my feet, I wore "shoesies." So too, on Shabbos, some
families with small children eat "challie."
R
>
> Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
> "Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
It may be similar to many nouns that are given an 'ee' sound at
the end to indicate affection either for the thing that the noun
represents or more commonly, for the person being addressed.
For example: In England and Australia, diapers are often called
"nappies" instead of napkins. When I was a small child, the
wba...@panix.com
: Hi.
: I remember my dad a"h using the term "challie". He (and I) are
: natives of Louisville (yes they do have Jews there) KY.
: --
: Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
My Aunt Martha, who would be about 105 today, always used to say challie
and often matzi, as in matzi farfel or matzi meal, but not if the word was
alone as in a box of matzah. This pronumciation ws quite prevalent in my
mother's family, the origins of which are Moscow (mother's side) and the
Warsaw area (father's side). The family was raised in Brooklyn and lived
their married lives mostly in Manhattan as Orthodox people. The sisters
understood quite a bit of Yiddish, but did not use it and had the snobbish
attitudes towards Yiddish, uite common in those days.
Don't know if this sheds any light, but may just be a data point.
Wendy Baker
Paul Evers
"> I remember my dad a"h using the term "challie". He (and I) are
> natives of Louisville (yes they do have Jews there) KY.
>
They also eat BAAG-ells in Northern Kentucky (without lux)
Paul
Fred Rosenblatt
>
> >From: Mikey <aveeny...@aol.com>
> >Subject:Pronouncing Challah as "Challi"
> >Date: 11 Oct 2001 23:48:35 GMT
> >Message-ID:<Xns9137C2601170...@207.172.3.55>
>
> >Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
> >"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
>
>
> From Jews who had zero backgrounds in Hebrew :-)
>
> Seriously, NO Jew with a strong Jewish education calls "challah" CHALLI.
My grandmother, who I believe was a Yekkie (or Yekkah, for those with
a background in Hebrew) also said "challi". It isn't uncommon around
here for Americans of German descent to have names ending in "y"
instead of the original "e". Just the fact that English speakers have
to make an effort to vocalize a final "e" seems like enough reason for
the vowel sound to gradually lengthen.
meirm...@erols.com
"animzmirot" <animz...@home.com> posted:
>
>nothing about. I honestly believe that you're being harsh
>and judgemental by making such a statement without knowing
>other people's experiences.
ROTFLOL PKB
Laura Appelbaum
"animzmirot" <animz...@home.com> wrote in message
news:%Awx7.5521$gT6.4...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
>
> <BAC...@vms.HUJI.AC.IL> wrote in message
> news:9q5bkh$6su$1...@condor.nj.org...
> > X-News: hujicc soc.culture.jewish.moderated:57414
> >
> > >From: Mikey <aveeny...@aol.com>
> > >Subject:Pronouncing Challah as "Challi"
> > >Date: 11 Oct 2001 23:48:35 GMT
> > >Message-ID:<Xns9137C2601170...@207.172.3.55>
> >
> > >Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing
> the word Challah as
> > >"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
> >
> >
> > From Jews who had zero backgrounds in Hebrew :-)
> >
> > Seriously, NO Jew with a strong Jewish education calls
> "challah" CHALLI.
>
> I believe it's a regional thing. I've seen it printed up in
> a shomer shabbat bakery in LA as Challi. And I also think
> it's generational. My grandparents (Z"l), who would be in
> their 90's if they were still alive, lived in LA, and they
> also said Challi, as did their friends and acquaintences.
My late grandparents on both sides of my family (may their memories be a
blessing) lived in the Bronx and Brooklyn respectively, were also very
religious and fully Jewishly educated, and they and other family members
also spoke of challah as "challi" which I distinctly remember because as a
child my favorite show was "Lassie" and I was always disappointed to
discover that when the all-important "collie" was fetched from the store, it
was never a pet dog for me. ;D On a serious note, I think it's probably a
kind of affectionate diminutive -- that ending "e"sound seems to be a kind
of "cute" sound to people who speak all sorts of languages, and don't we all
feel there's something lovable, if not out and out cute about those
wonderful, sweet, braided loaves?
LMA
LMA
Susan S
<aveeny...@aol.com>:
>Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
>"Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
>
>I seem to find that pronounciation mostly prevalent in New York and
>Pittsburgh, e.g., "Can you stop at the bakery on the way home and pick up
>the challi for tomorrow night?"
>
My mother, who is from New York, uses that pronunciation. Her
parents were from Austria and Russia. Could it be a Yiddish
variation of some kind?
Susan Silberstein
meirm...@erols.com
Baker "" <wba...@panix.com> posted:
>Art Werschulz <a...@cs.columbia.edu> wrote:
>: Hi.
>
>: I remember my dad a"h using the term "challie". He (and I) are
>: natives of Louisville (yes they do have Jews there) KY.
>
>: --
>: Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
>
>My Aunt Martha, who would be about 105 today, always used to say challie
>and often matzi, as in matzi farfel or matzi meal, but not if the word was
>alone as in a box of matzah.
What about in the phrase: hu matzi lechem min ho'oretz. ??
>This pronumciation ws quite prevalent in my
>mother's family, the origins of which are Moscow (mother's side) and the
>Warsaw area (father's side). The family was raised in Brooklyn and lived
>their married lives mostly in Manhattan as Orthodox people. The sisters
>understood quite a bit of Yiddish, but did not use it and had the snobbish
>attitudes towards Yiddish, uite common in those days.
>
>Don't know if this sheds any light, but may just be a data point.
>
>Wendy Baker
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I buy 1-3 "challahs" on Friday for the meals. But the little ones
used for "lechem Mishnah" - "Two loaves" - are "Challi rolls".
Go figure.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
Z
pronounced w, hence chawek. Polish Ch is same as ch in challa, loch..
That is common usage, and sounds like the diminuitive form (-ek), so the
proper name (singular) would probably be Challa.
Plural of challa is Challi, which is what you speak of..
So
-la is singular ending
-li is plural ending
-ek is diminutive ending Tomek is to Tomasz as Tommy is to Thomas.
-ki is plural diminuitive ending
I'm not an expert on Polish Philology and a (Jewish) friend of mine in
Poland who is, is unobtainable as he's recently lost his job and e-mail
address. 'm only a language 'hobbyist' -still a learner and my books are
in storage. Russian, Ukranian and Cesky are similar.
I'm not sure the demographics in the US of ex-Polish Jewry. Many fled to
Chicago (Polands 2nd city!) , and New York. Pittsburgh I wouldn't expect
to have a large Jewish population as it is a steel centre, but a lot of
Poles might have migrated there. Since Chalek is eaten by Poles
(although not for shabbos use) the pronunciation might have carried.
I was surprised to see, even the bread stall holders on the street
corners of Poland know what challa are and sell them. One of my Father's
family's businesses before the war was a bakery in Torun (now a winery)
and Grudziadz and my Father spoke of the challas, rogoles and rogolikes.
I would question the kashrus of the challi sold in Poland as egg yolk is
an ingredient and I doubt the bakers would care, or could afford to
care, if blood spots were introduced into the product.
Z
In article <Xns9137C2601170...@207.172.3.55>, Mikey
<aveeny...@aol.com> writes
--
Z
meirm...@erols.com
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il posted:
>To add my 2 cents.
>
>I buy 1-3 "challahs" on Friday for the meals. But the little ones
>used for "lechem Mishnah" - "Two loaves" - are "Challi rolls".
I've been near Dollywood and I want to go to Hollywood, but I may just
look forward to Challirolls.
>Go figure.
>
>Moshe Schorr
>It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
>May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
BAC...@vms.huji.ac.il
>From: mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>Subject:Re: Pronouncing Challah as "Challi"
>Date: 14 Oct 2001 13:24:37 GMT
>Message-ID:<2001Oct1...@mm.huji.ac.il>
>To add my 2 cents.
>
>I buy 1-3 "challahs" on Friday for the meals. But the little ones
>used for "lechem Mishnah" - "Two loaves" - are "Challi rolls".
No, they are "challih" rolls. It just occurred to me that the problem
is one or transliteration and orthography (spelling). The *i* in Challi
is SHORT and not long; ergo, it's pronounced "challih".
Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast :-)
Josh
wba...@panix.com
: In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 12 Oct 2001 16:28:59 GMT "" Wendy
: Baker "" <wba...@panix.com> posted:
:>Art Werschulz <a...@cs.columbia.edu> wrote:
:>: Hi.
:>
:>: I remember my dad a"h using the term "challie". He (and I) are
:>: natives of Louisville (yes they do have Jews there) KY.
:>
:>: --
:>: Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker
:>
:>My Aunt Martha, who would be about 105 today, always used to say challie
:>and often matzi, as in matzi farfel or matzi meal, but not if the word was
:>alone as in a box of matzah.
: What about in the phrase: hu matzi lechem min ho'oretz. ??
No, for my Uncle Joe, it was Ha Motzi lechem Minnie Horowitz and there ws
also borey pri McGuffey(as in the old time readers). Just the bad joke os
every seder that we still tell in memory of several grand reletives who
are no longer among us.
Wendy Baker
Joshua L. Segal
is a regional thing which goes beyond challah-challi.
Yarmulka versus yarmulki
Pushka versus Pushki
Chuppa versus Chuppi
etc.
Joshua Segal
---
Mikey wrote:
>
> Does anyone know where the odd tradition of pronouncing the word Challah as
> "Challi" (rhymes with Holly or collie) comes from?
>
> ...