Historical dates
SM
discrepancy between secular historians' dating the destruction of the
first Jewish commonwealth at 586 BCE, and the traditional Jewish
religious view that it occurred in 420 BCE?
toichen
I am familiar.
toichen
Hillel Sabba Markowitz
Quite some time ago, I posted a timeline based on Rav Schwab who
suggests that the gap is because the chachamim had a gap during the
building of the second temple.
http://www.ou.org/chagim/chanukah/timeline.htm
Table of Important Dates
During Second Temple Era*
Timeline below based on ArtScroll Mesorah Series "Chanukah - Its
History, Observance, and Significance"
OU Editors Note:
There is a conflict among Jewish historians as to the date of the
destruction of the First Temple by the Babylonians. The timeline
presented below shows 423 B.C.E. as the date. The other well-known
date is 163 years earlier, in 586 B.C.E.
Thus, there exists a 163-year gap in the timeline of Jewish History,
with that period of time lying in the period of the First Temple.
What happened in those missing years, or whether there are, in fact,
missing years, is an unresolved mystery.
http://www.hum.huji.ac.il/dinur/Internetresources/historyresources/timelines_for_ancient_jewish_his.htm
has a list of various timelines
Here is a repeat of the timeline article that I originally posted with
Rav Schwab's explanation. Note that I have been told that Rav Schwab
*may* have changed his views later, but I have not seen that.
The development of the time-line written below is based on a lecture
by Rav
Schwab of Kahal Adath Yeshurun (Rav Breuer's schul) given in the year
5729
(1968/69 C.E.) according to the count we currently use from the
creation of the
world. The lecture dealt with the problem of dating the destruction
of the
two Temples and reconciling the dates with the Xian dating system
currently in
use.
There are three methods of dating the beginning of the Creation era
counting
from the creation. They are:
1. Year 1 begins with the actual creation of the Universe.
2. Year "0" is the creation of the Universe, while we count year 1
from the
creation of man
3. The dating of the years is based on the ages shown in the Torah,
thus Adam's
creation began Year 0 and Year 1 began on his first birthday. This
method
allows the calendar to be set up by just adding the ages we find in
Bereishis.
Rabbi Schwab stated that we use method 1 in our current calendar.
The difference in the three dating schemes is shown in the following
table.
_______________________________________________________________
| Summary Event | Creation Era Dating |
| Writeup | 1 2 3 |
|________________________________|_____________________________|
| | |
| 1. Earth without form and void | 1 |
|________________________________|_____________________________|
| | |
| 2. Creation of Adam | 2 1 |
|________________________________|_____________________________|
| | |
| 3. Adam one year old | 3 2 1 |
|________________________________|_____________________________|
| | |
| 4. Flood | 1658 1657 1656 |
|________________________________|_____________________________|
The following tables show the dating of events from the Chumash,
TaNaCh,
Talmud, and secular history through the destruction of the second
Temple.
I. 10 generations from Adam to Noach
Date | Event
________|_____________________________________________________________
1 | The universe is created
________|_____________________________________________________________
2 | Adam is created
________|_____________________________________________________________
3 | Adam is 1 year old
________|_____________________________________________________________
132 | Adam fathers Shes (at 130 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
237 | Shes fathers Enosh (at 105 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
327 | Enosh fathers Kainan (at 90 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
397 | Kainan fathers Mehalalel (at 70 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
462 | Mehalalel fathers Yared (at 65 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
624 | Yared fathers Chanoch (at 162 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
689 | Chanoch fathers Mesushelach (at 65 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
876 | Mesushelach fathers Lamech (at 187 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
932 | Adam dies (930 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
989 | Chanoch ends (365 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1044 | Shes dies (912 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1058 | Lamech fathers Noach (at 182 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1142 | Enosh dies (905 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1237 | Kainan dies (910 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1292 | Mehalalel dies (895 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1424 | Yared dies (962 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1560 | Noach fathers Shem (98 years before the flood)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1653 | Lamech dies (777 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
1658 | Mesushelach dies (969 years old)
________|_____________________________________________________________
________|_____________________________________________________________
|
1658 | FLOOD
________|____________________________________________________________
________|____________________________________________________________
II. 10 Generations from Noach to Avraham
Date | Event
________|_____________________________________________________________
1660 | Shem fathers Arpachshad (at 100 years old)
| 2 years after flood
________|____________________________________________________________
1695 | Arpachshad fathers Shelach (at 35 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1725 | Shelach fathers Aiver (at 30 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1759 | Aiver fathers Peleg (at 34 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1789 | Peleg fathers Reu (at 30 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1821 | Reu fathers Srug (at 32 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1851 | Srug fathers Nachor (at 30 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1880 | Nachor fathers Terach (at 29 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1950 | Terach fathers Avram (100 years before Yitzchak is born)
________|____________________________________________________________
________|____________________________________________________________
III. The Patriarchs - Avrahom through Yaakov
Date | Event
________|_____________________________________________________________
1998 | Peleg dies (239 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
1999 | Nachor dies (230 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2020 | Terach leaves Ur Kasdim for Canaan. Settles in Charan
| Avram is 70 years old. Based on figure of 430 years
| mentione in Exodus.
________|____________________________________________________________
2025 | Avram told to leave Charan (Lech Lecha) (at 75 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2028 | Reu dies (239 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2036 | Avraham fathers Yishmael (at 86 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2049 | Avraham performs Bris Milah (at 99 years old)
| Yishmael is 13 years old
________|____________________________________________________________
2050 | Avraham fathers Yitzchak (at 100 years old)
| Yishmael is 14 years old
________|____________________________________________________________
2051 | Srug dies (230 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2085 | Terach dies (205 years old) in Charan
________|____________________________________________________________
2087 | Avraham performs Akeidas Yitzchak (at 137 years old)
| Yitzchak is 37 years old
| Sarah dies (127 years old)
| Yitzchak marries Rivka
________|____________________________________________________________
2110 | Yitzchak fathers Eisav and Yaakov (at 60 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2125 | Avraham dies (175 years old)
| Yishmael & Yitzchak are reconciled
| Eisav & Yaakov are 15
| Eisav sells birthright to Yaakov
________|____________________________________________________________
2125 | Arpachshad dies (465 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2128 | Shelach dies (433 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2150 | Eisav marries Yehudis bas Beairi Hachiti (at 40 years old)
| Eisav also marries Basmas bas Ailon Hachiti
________|____________________________________________________________
2160 | Shem dies (600 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2189 | Aiver dies (464 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2173 | Yitzchak gives Brocho to Yaakov (at 123 years old - Rashi)
| Yaakov leaves home (at 63 years old)
| for Yeshiva of Shem & Aiver
| Eisav marries Machalas bas Yishmael (at 63 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2173 | Yishmael dies (137 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2187 | Yaakov leaves Yeshiva for Padan Aram (at 77 years old)
| meet Rachel at the well, agress to work for 7 years
________|____________________________________________________________
2194 | Yaakov marries Leah (at 84 years old)
| marries Rachel on promise to work 7 more years
________|____________________________________________________________
2201 | Yaakov fathers Yosef (at 91 years old)
| makes deal with Lavan to begin earning his own flock
________|____________________________________________________________
2207 | Yaakov completes work for himself
| begins traveling to Canaan (at 97 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2209 | Yaakov reaches Cannan, settles down (at 99 years old)
| Yosef is 8 years old
________|____________________________________________________________
2218 | Yosef is sold and ends up in Mitzrayim (at 17 years old)
| Yaakov is 108 years old
________|____________________________________________________________
2231 | Yosef interprets Paroah's dream (at 30 years old)
| Yaakov is 121 years old
________|____________________________________________________________
2240 | Yaakov goes down to Mitzrayim (at 130 years old)
| after 7 years of plenty and 2 years of famine.
| Yosef is 39 years old
________|____________________________________________________________
2257 | Yaakov dies in Mitzrayim (147 years old)
| Eisav is killed at the Mearas Hamachpeilah
________|____________________________________________________________
IV. From Exile to Exile - Mitzraim to Bavel
Date | Event
________|_____________________________________________________________
2311 | Yosef dies (110 years old)
________|____________________________________________________________
2370 | Moshe Rabbeinu is born in Mitzraim
________|____________________________________________________________
2450 | Exodus from Mitzrayim
| Moshe Rabbeinu is 80 years old
| Melachim I 6:1 states that this is 480 years before the
| dedication of the First Temple by Shlomo Hamelech
________|____________________________________________________________
2490 | Moshe Rabbeinu dies (120 years old)
| Entry into Canaan
________|____________________________________________________________
2930 | Dedication of the First Temple by Shlomo Hamelech
| Temple lasts 410 years according to the Talmud
________|____________________________________________________________
3340 | Destruction of the First Temple
| Babylonian exile lasts 70 years
________|____________________________________________________________
________|____________________________________________________________
V. The Building of the Second Temple
Rabbi Schwab pointed out that the historical evidence dates the
destruction of
the first Temple at 586 BCE and the destruction of the Second Temple
at 70 CE.
This seems to cause a conflict with the Talmud which lists the Second
Temple as
having lasted 420 years and the exile as 70 years. This 490 year span
would put
the destruction of the First temple at 420 BCE. The dating scheme
used below is
AM (Anno Mundi) for the dates from the creation as in the tables
above, TCE for
the Temple Construction Era, BCE for Before the Common (or Xian) Era,
and CE for
the Common (or Xian Era).
Rabbi Schwab deals with this by postulating that the period of the
building of
the Second Temple lasted 168 years and was not counted in the calendar
we use
today. That is, the era he refers to as the "Temple Construction Era"
was
numbered seperately and was identical with the era of "Anshei Kneses
Hagdola"
(Men of the Great Assembly). One reason for this is to prevent the
attempt to
calculate the exact date that the moshiach will come. An appendix
giving Rabbi
Schwab's dates for the events of the end of the First Temple Era will
be added
later. Rabbi Schwab dated the Destruction of the First Temple in 3340
as 590/89
BCE. The end of the Babylonian exile in 3409 is dated 521/20 BCE with
the reign
of Darius I. The era of the Anshei Knesses Hagdola is shown in the
following
table. Note that this would date the creation of the world (Year 1
AM)
as 3929/28 BCE.
Date TCE | Date BCE | Event
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
1 | 520/19 | Temple building is resumed. Hagai, Zechariah
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
5 | 516/15 | Dedication of (incomplete) Temple celebrated.
| | Rebuilding of Jerusalem wall is begun
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
6 | 515/14 | Ezra arrives. First (prophetic) period of
| | "Knesses Hagdola" begins. After death of Joshua
| | Ezra become High Priest.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
34 | 487/86 | Darius I dies.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
35 | 486/85 | Xerxes (Artachshasstra of Ezra). Messianic
| | redemption expected no later than 3450 from the
| | creation (1,000 years after the Exodus). Ezra
| | travels to Bavel to organize the Ingathering of
the
| | Exiles. He appoints Yoyakim as High Priest.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
40 | 481/80 | Xerxes appoints Ezrah as Pasha of Yehuda,
encourages
| | total immigration.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
41 | 480/79 | Second coming of Ezra with only 1500 immigrants.
| | Refusal of majority to leave exile causes
indefinite
| | postponement of messianic redemption.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
42 | 479/78 | Mixed Marriages Dissolved.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
54 | 466/65 | Xerxes dies. Artaxerxes I (Longimanus =
Artachashassta
| | of Nechemiah). Through change of government,
Ezra
| | loses his political power. Deterioration sets
in.
| | Ezra (= Malachi) admonishes his contemporaries.
| | Persecution under new governors. Sanballat in
| | Samaria, Tobias the Ammonite, and Geshem the
Arab
| | are main antagonists. Enemies burn walls of
Jerusalem
| | many Jews flee country/ Poverty and corruption
reign.
| | Eliashev is the High Priest.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
75 | 446/45 | Nechemiah becomes governor. Walls of Jerusalem
| | are repaired.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
76 | 445/44 | Spiritual restoration of Jewish community.
| | "Covenant of the Faith". Second period of
"Knesses
| | Hagdola" (Soferim) begins. Yoyada is High
Priest.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
86 | 435/34 | Nehemiah leaves for Shushan. Partial
deterioration
| | sets in again.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
88 | 433/32 | Nehemiah returns. festive dedication of
Jerusalem
| (ca) | wall. Ezra dies. Yochanan (= Jonathan) becomes
| | High Priest. Biblical canon closed.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
97 | 424/23 | Darius II (Nothus)
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
| 410 | Yeb temple in Egypt destroyed.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
| 406 | Bagoas governor of Yehuda. Delaiah, son of
| | Sanballat in Samaria.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
116 | 405/04 | Artaxerxes II (Mnemon)
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
161 | 360/59 | Artaxerxes III (Ochus)
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
168 | 353/52 | Final temple restoration completed by Shimon
Hatzadik
| | (Simon "The Just"). End of the Temple
Construction
| | Era. Resumption of Anno Mundi numbering.
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
_________|__________|__________________________________________________
VI. The Second Temple Era
Date AM | Date BCE | Event
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3410 | 352/51 | First year of second Temple Era
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3423 | 339/38 | Darius III (Codomanus)
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3428 | 334/33 | Alexander - Battle of Issus
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3430 | 332/31 | Alexander welcomed in Jerusalem by Shimon
Hatzadik.
| | Jewish social and cultural autonomy, granted
under
| | the Persian rulers, remains unimpaired for
another
| | 20 years until the battle of Gaza.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3438 | 324/23 | Alexander dies.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3442 | 320/19 | Ptolemy conquers Jerusalem
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3444 | 318/17 | Greek domination of Jewish life starts in Elam
| | (Media). Spreads all over the Jewish world
within
| | the next 6 years and lasts for 180 years.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3446 | 316/315 | Antifones conquers Jerusalem.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3449 | 313/312 | Ptolemy reconquers Jerusalem.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3450 | 312/11 | Battle of Gaza. Ptolemy (="King of the South")
and
| | Seleucis (="King of the North") are in control of
| | most of Alexander's empire.
| | Greek Era begins. This year is identical with
the
| | first year of the Seleucid Era alos called
"Minyan
| | Shtaros". Since the 168 years of the Temple
| | Construction Era are numbered seperately, follows
| | the year "1000 after the Exodus" according to AM.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3624 | 133/37 | Commencement of the Chashmonaim Era (103 years)
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3727 | 35/34 | Commencement of the Herodian Era (103 years)
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3760 | 2/1 |
3761 | 1BCE/1CE | Beginning of the Common (Xian) Era dating
3762 | 1/2 CE |
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3830 | 69/70 CE | Destruction of the Second temple 420 years after
| | its completion by Shimon Hatzadik.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
________|____________________________________________________________
VII. The End of the First Temple Era.
The following table goes back and gives the details of Rabbi Schwab's
time-line
of the end of the First Temple with the connection to the secular
dating based
on the 168 year gap in the AM dating shown above.
Date AM | Date BCE | Event
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3304 | 626/25 | Yoval count restarted after Yirmiyahu bring back
the
| | ten tribes.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3318 | 612/11 | Yoshiah killed by Pharoah Necho. Yehoachaz
reigns
| | for three months
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3319 | 611/10 | First year of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
| | Battle of Carchemish liquidates teh last remnant
of
| | "Ninive" (the former Assyrian Empire).
| | Nevuchadnetzar's father dies on 8 Av and
Nevuchadnetzar
| | becomes emperor on 1 Elul. The Babylonians count
this
| | year as the "accesion year" ("rishonis") and the
next
| | year as year 1. According to Jewish counting,
the
| | year of his victory over "Ninive" is year 1 of
his
| | reign. Yoyakim kills Uriah and threatens
| | Yirmiyahu's life.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3323 | 607/06 | In his second year, Nevuchadnetzar invades
Yehuda.
| | Yoyakim becomes his vassal for 3 years.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3326 | 604/03 | Yoyakim rebels. First year of regained
independence.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3328 | 602/01 | In Adar (3rd year of independence)
Nevuchadnetzar's
| | troops capture Yoyakim and many nobles. Daniel
and
| | his three friends are among the captives brought
to
| | to Bavel. Yoyakim dies in his chains while being
| | dragged out of Jerusalem. No king in Yehuda for
| | about eight months.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3329 | 601/00 | Yoyachin (Yechoniah) becomes king for 3 months
and
| | 10 days. Babylonian troops lay siege to
Jerusalem
| | to capture him. In Adar, Nevuchadnetzar arrives,
| | Jerusalem capitulates, Yechoniah goes into exile
with
| | almost all the leading and learned citizens.
| |
| | Daryavesh, son of Achashverosh, also called
Subarru
| | (Gobrias) is born in Media.
| | Nevuchadnetzar appoints Tzidkiyahu king who
swears
| | allegiance to him.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3332 | 598/97 | Tzidkiyahu travels to Bavel to pay homage to
| | Nevuchadnetzar and returns.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3334 | 596/95 | Tzidkiyahu conspires with Egypt against Bavel.
| | Vision of Yechezkel in the 30th year after the
Yovel.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3336 | 594/93 | Pharoah Hophra (Apries) captures Gaza while
returning
| | from an attempt to help Yehuda against the
Babylonian
| | army on the march.
________|__________|__________________________________________________
3339 | 591/90 | Siege of Yerushalayim (10 Teves). This is the
410th
| | year of the First temple Era
________|____________________________________________________________
________|__________|__________________________________________________
VIII. The Galus Bavel
The following table goes back and gives the details of Rabbi Schwab's
time-line
of the Galus Bavel (Babylonian Exile) with the connection to the
secular dating
based on the 168 year gap in the AM dating shown above.
I had to stop copying the article here as google (via which I post has
a limit on the number of characters that can be entered.
--
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Im Ain Ani Li Mi Li
Sabba....@verizon.net | Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha
Lisa
587 BCE and 421 BCE, actually. And yes.
While I don't in any way endorse his POV, the most comprehensive
overview of the various opinions on this issue is Mitchell First's
"Jewish History in Conflict: A Study of the Major Discrepancy Between
Rabbinic and Conventional Chronology".
I believe it was actually his Masters thesis. A real "al regel achat"
summary of the issue is that Jewish history holds that the Persian
(Achaemenid) Empire lasted for 52 years, and was made up of 4 kings.
While the Greek based conventional history holds that it lasted 208
years, and saw 10 kings.
Briefly, there are four possible ways to address this:
1) The Greek based history is right, and the Jewish history is
nonsense.
2) The Jewish history is right, and the Greek based history is
nonsense.
3) The Greek based history is right, but the Jewish history isn't
without value. What needs to be done is to take the Jewish accounts
and fit them into the Greek based framework.
4) The Jewish history is right, but the Greek based account isn't
without value. What needs to be done is to take the Greek based
accounts and fit them into the Jewish framework.
So. There are plenty of historians and secular Jews who love option
#1. And on the opposite side, there's the Artscroll type of view,
which goes for option #2.
Almost all of the reconciliatory views have gone with option #3. Even
the Daat Mikra Tanakh series, put out by Mossad HaRav Kook, has gone
with option #3, just because there's so much pressure to do so.
Option #4 was put forth by Dr. Chayim Heifetz, and has been defended
by a few people, among them myself. My cousin actually wrote a review
article about it in Jewish Action magazine, and it can be read at:
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html
There were a couple of letters in response to that article, one from
Mitchell First, and some replies to those letters as well. Those can
be read at:
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzletters.html
Hope that helps,
Lisa
Jonathan J. Baker
>Quite some time ago, I posted a timeline based on Rav Schwab who
>suggests that the gap is because the chachamim had a gap during the
>building of the second temple.
>http://www.ou.org/chagim/chanukah/timeline.htm
> OU Editors Note:
> There is a conflict among Jewish historians as to the date of the
>destruction of the First Temple by the Babylonians. The timeline
>presented below shows 423 B.C.E. as the date. The other well-known
>date is 163 years earlier, in 586 B.C.E.
> Thus, there exists a 163-year gap in the timeline of Jewish History,
>with that period of time lying in the period of the First Temple.
>What happened in those missing years, or whether there are, in fact,
>missing years, is an unresolved mystery.
>Here is a repeat of the timeline article that I originally posted with
>Rav Schwab's explanation. Note that I have been told that Rav Schwab
>*may* have changed his views later, but I have not seen that.
Here is R' Schwab's (partial) recantation. There is some dispute among
those who have spoken with him and with his relatives as to whether the
recantation was motivated by personal integrity (according to his daughter),
or was due to outside pressure (Rav of Basel quoting the dayan of the Haredi
community of Basel, who had it from R' Schwab).
================================
Chapter 21 of Selected Speeches: A collection of Addresses and Essays on
Hashkafah, Contemporary Issues and Jewish History Including: "Comparitive
Jewish Chronology". CIS publishers 1991. pp255-285. The first part is
essentially what I previously posted.
p. 281 Epilogue
1) All the aforegoing is based on an essay which was printed about 30
years ago in Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer Jubilee Volume and which was revised
a few times. The purpose of this attempt was to assist the bewildered
Torah-true students of Jewish history sitting on the horns of a dilemma,
and to strengthen their emunah. Time and again, I was urged to publish
this revised edition in order to serve a larger readership. But in
the meantime many great doubts have bothered my mind and have made it
mandatory for me to share my pangs of conscious with my readers.
a) "History" is either true or false. There is no middle ground. The
events described in a history book have either happened or they
haven't. The most ingenious theories which may have their place in
philosophy or as a working thesis in the exact sciences have no meaning
in the pursuit of historical evidence, which is a search for facts and
which accepts no conjectures. A chronological time table is the backbone
of any book on history which expects to be accepted by intellectually
honest students.
b) If our forefathers wanted to hide a certain period in our history,
because of a Divine mandate, who has the right to uncover the carefully
concealed secret? Even with our best intentions to strengthen the faith
of those who doubt the accuracy of our traditional method of counting
the years from Creation, we still were not given the right to remove
the veil for any reason. therefore, I feel like the legendary king of
the Khazars who was told a few time in a dream "Your intentions are
acceptable but your deeds are not."
c) The "hidden years theory" necessitates the assumption that the
construction of the Second Temple lasted for a century and a half which,
by the way would explain the discrepancy between the measurements
of the Bayis Sheini in Ezra (6:13) and those of mescheta Midos. It
would also explain why the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah speak in the Mishna
(i.e. Zevachim 5:1) of before the hanging curtains instead of using the
word ezara as in all other places. There were no hanging curtains except
in the Mishkan which was built in the desert. But there may have been
hanging curtains during the very long construction period of the Second
Temple which was not completed until the time of Shimon HaTzaddik, exactly
420 years before its destruction by the Romans. True, there's a reference
to this in the book of Ben Sira, but no clear evidence. Therefore, the
assumption of such a minor Bayis Sheini for 186 years is totally unproven.
d) Josephus who was not a faithful Torah Jew, and who lived only about
400 years after Alexander the Great, makes no mention of a large interval
between Ezra and the Greek period. He would not have kept quiet had he
known about that from the gentiles.
e) One letter-writer suggested to me that most ancient documents are so
unclear, confusing and self-contradicting that we do not have to take
the conclusions of modern historians seriously. In this, case no real
conflict exists.
Another correspondent called my attention to the writings of Rav Saadiah
Gaon in Emuna v'De'os chapter 9 where he states that a certain "nation"
has inserted over one hundred years and 17 additional kings in their
history books, in order to place the founder of Christianity into a
fitting historical context.
f) A very knowledgeable friend has called my attention to the exact
reckoning of the new moon which we follow today, which could not be
reconciled with the addition of 168 "missing years". The computer shows
that the molad would be off by 1.5 days,b y which time the moon is already
visible. The statements of chazal which deal with the molad at the time
of creation, the so-called molad tohu would not tally if an additional
168 years are added (Concerning the various methods of calculating the
molad, see Rambam Kiddush Hachodesh 6:8...Torah Sheleimah vol 11 chapter
8 par. 110...
The counter-argument is that our system of figuring out the molad dates
back only to the time after Daniel, and our Sages went to great lengths
to hide the true cheshbon by constructing a method which we follow today.
Subsequently the molad tohu is figured out retroactively.
g) We are now counting the year 5751, and if we add 168 years, the real
date for this year would be 5919, which leaves only 81 years till the
end of the 6th millennium.This is most frightening, especially for all
those born not so long ago, or those to be born in the near future,
who would become the living witnesses of the "end of days". They will
see with own eyes whether the statement (Rosh Hashanna 31a, Avodah Zara
9a. Sanhedrin 97) that "the world will exist only for six thousand years
and then be destroyed" is meant to be taken literally, or has a different
interpretation, as do many Aggadic pronouncements.
I am writing all this with awe and trepidation. On the other hand, if the
"hidden years" never were, then mankind still ahs 250 years before the
coming of the "end".
h) It is because of all these gnawing doubts that I have decided to put
a big question mark after the words "Jewish Chronology." Let somebody
with greater knowledge come and pick up the threads where I left off. Our
traditional, universally accepted Jewish way of counting the years from
Creation is sacred territory which only fools do not fear to tread upon.
This may be a disappointment to some, but on the other hand I muster the
courage to belong to those who rather wish to be honest to themselves than
to be "right". I would rather leave a good question open than risk giving
a wrong answer. And I follow the teachings of Rav Shimon (Pesachim 52b)
who said "Just as I was awarded for the research, so shall I be awarded
for the retraction". The historic material which I have assembled may
still be somehow useful, even for those who will doubt whether there can
ever be a Jewish chronology which would satisfy the non believer in the
wisdom of our Sages. So I fall back into the ranks of all shlomei emunei
Yisroel. And to me l'berias olam means what it meant to our fathers. It
is as simple as that. And while we may keep on searching for the answers,
we pray that Hashem may enlighten our eyes. "And G-d should enlighten
the eyes of all those who wait for the coming redemption quickly in our
days amen"
====================================
--
Jonathan Baker | Ksivechsimetoiveh!
jjb...@panix.com | (It's a contraction, like Shkoiech, or Brshmo)
Eliyahu Rooff
"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bmk83a$7ui$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>
> a) "History" is either true or false. There is no middle ground. The
> events described in a history book have either happened or they
> haven't.
This, however, bypasses the possibility that while events have occurred, the
observer/recorder of facts got them incorrectly or was inaccurate or
incomplete in his description. What makes it a muddle is that in most
history books, there will be a mix of fact and error, and the difficult part
is figuring out which is which. In many cases, folks will be arguing about
something, one saying "Yes, it happened," while the other says, "No, it
couldn't have happened because ____ didn't happen at that time." Quite
possibly, it happened, but happened differently than either of them had
considered as possible. We've gotten quite spoiled these days with the easy
availability of contemporaneous records, photographs and video of events,
and forget that earlier eras had to rely upon passing on of oral
information, or written records compiled days, weeks, months or even years
after the event. "Information media" didn't exist as a business until
relatively recently, nor did freedom of the press. Instead, the historic
record was often controlled by whoever had power over a place at the time,
and the only information perpetuated was that which reflected his beliefs
and desires. IOW, while history may, indeed, be either true or false, the
record of that history may reflect biases and controls having nothing to do
with truth and falsehood.
Eliyahu