A New Halacha Question
Cindy S.
for the automatic turn-off on the oven had malfunctioned (failed to shut off
the oven, so the oven was still turned on), and it was already shabbos.
There was still food in the oven. The woman's daughter asked her mother if
it was permissible to open the oven door. The woman answered that yes it was
but "only once." This was something new to me. I assume the reason was
because opening the door of the oven would cause the oven to cool and then
reheat to the pre-set temperature. However, if this is the case, wouldn't
this happen even if one opened the oven door "only once?"
Thanks in advance.
--Cindy S.
Lisa
It's not that it's okay to open the oven door only once. It's that
it's forbidden to close it. That'd be hatmana (covering food on a
fire to retain the heat and cause additional cooking), if I'm not
mistaken.
Lisa
Cindy S.
Lisa <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
news:3d761979...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
door only once *to remove the food." After that, there wouldn't be any food
remaining in the oven and hence no hatmana.
However, we are allowed to finish cooking something on shabbos if it is at
least 1/3 done or 2/3 (I remember some other posters were arguing over the
percentage). According to this, one would be allowed to continue the
cooking. How does this fit in with the prohibition against hatmana, etc?
Thanks.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
> Lisa
Raphael
>least 1/3 done or 2/3 (I remember some other posters were arguing over the
>percentage). According to this, one would be allowed to continue the
>cooking. How does this fit in with the prohibition against hatmana, etc?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Best regards,
>--Cindy S.
No, we are never allowed to finish cooking something on Shabbos if it at least
2/3 or even 27/30's cooked.
What we are ALLOWED to do, (and I'm sure you meant this), under the conditions
mentioned in earlier posts, is PASSIVELY allow something to cook which was
placed on the fire before Shabbos. Closing the oven while food remains in it
would cause the thermostat and oven to "restart" for the benefit of cooling or
keeping the food warm.
This would be a "psik reisha d'nicha lei", a melacha certainly caused by
something you did for another purpose entirely, but which is beneficial. This
kind of action is as forbidden as a purposeful melacha. Other famous examples
include opening a fridge door and having the light go on.
This differs from a "psik reisha d'lo nicha lei" where an action is done that
has a certain consequence which you do not want and is not desirable. This
kind of action might be permitted under certain complex circumstances. I'd
have to review those issues before posting more.
Best regards,
Raphael
----------------------------------------
If you reply to a post I wrote, please e-mail it to me as well.
Cindy S.
Raphael <raphae...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020904123509...@mb-mp.aol.com...
>
> What we are ALLOWED to do, (and I'm sure you meant this), under the
conditions
> mentioned in earlier posts, is PASSIVELY allow something to cook which was
> placed on the fire before Shabbos. Closing the oven while food remains in
it
> would cause the thermostat and oven to "restart" for the benefit of
cooling or
> keeping the food warm.
>
> This would be a "psik reisha d'nicha lei", a melacha certainly caused by
> something you did for another purpose entirely, but which is beneficial.
This
> kind of action is as forbidden as a purposeful melacha. Other famous
examples
> include opening a fridge door and having the light go on.
>
> This differs from a "psik reisha d'lo nicha lei" where an action is done
that
> has a certain consequence which you do not want and is not desirable.
This
> kind of action might be permitted under certain complex circumstances.
I'd
> have to review those issues before posting more.
Thank you for the clarification.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Larry Lennhoff
... it isn't a Pesik Resha DeNiha leh, it is a pesik Resha DeLo nihah
leh, simply because you don't want or need the food to be cooked more,
and you must wait for the thermostat to go on first before opening the
oven door, and there isn't such a thing as causing a food that is in
the oven cooking to be cooked, there isn't even a gerrama degrama
degrama here.
[Larry resumes speaking for himself]
This individual also said earlier in the discussion that he holds by
"there is no cooking after cooking" to allow him to insert cold dry
food into a hot oven on Shabbat itself. Ashkenazi custom forbids this
as marat ayin.
If the melacha isn't cooking, but is instead causing the oven to
re-ignite, then I wonder why we can take some food, but not all, out
of the refrigerator. The oven's melacha can't be the final hammer
blow IMO, because the thermostat will come on even if the door is
open.
Kol Tuv
Larry
raphae...@aol.com (Raphael) wrote in message news:<20020904123509...@mb-mp.aol.com>...
Cindy S.
Larry Lennhoff <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6262687f.02090...@posting.google.com...
> Raphael
>
>
> [Larry resumes speaking for himself]
> This individual also said earlier in the discussion that he holds by
> "there is no cooking after cooking" to allow him to insert cold dry
> food into a hot oven on Shabbat itself. Ashkenazi custom forbids this
> as marat ayin.
Larry, if I am the individual in question, I never said I hold that it is
permissible to insert cold, dry food into a hot oven on Shabbos. Chas
v'shalom! I was referring to hot food that was already in the oven from
before shabbos and at least 2/3 cooked (that one may allow it to passively
finish cooking). For the record, I would never take any food out of the
refrigerator (cooked or otherwise) and put it in the oven on shabbos nor
would I take hot food out of the oven and return it to the oven. The only
warming I would do of cold, dry food would be on the Unblech (tm), which is
a special type of blech that is filled with water and is the halachic
equivalent of warming on the lid of a pot.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
>
> If the melacha isn't cooking, but is instead causing the oven to
> re-ignite then I wonder why we can take some food, but not all, out
Jonathan J. Baker
>Larry Lennhoff <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> [Larry resumes speaking for himself]
>> This individual also said earlier in the discussion that he holds by
>> "there is no cooking after cooking" to allow him to insert cold dry
>> food into a hot oven on Shabbat itself. Ashkenazi custom forbids this
>> as marat ayin.
"Ashkenazi custom"? I know that there are a lot of people who
won't do this, but since when has it been elevated to "Ashkenazi
custom"? The Rav YBS reheated, the rabbonim Lookstein reheat,
we reheat, plenty of Ashkenazim reheat.
>Larry, if I am the individual in question, I never said I hold that it is
>permissible to insert cold, dry food into a hot oven on Shabbos. Chas
>v'shalom! I was referring to hot food that was already in the oven from
Now it's "Chas v'shalom" that people can reheat.
>before shabbos and at least 2/3 cooked (that one may allow it to passively
>finish cooking). For the record, I would never take any food out of the
>refrigerator (cooked or otherwise) and put it in the oven on shabbos nor
>would I take hot food out of the oven and return it to the oven. The only
Good for you. Plenty of frum Jews do, however, reheat.
>warming I would do of cold, dry food would be on the Unblech (tm), which is
>a special type of blech that is filled with water and is the halachic
>equivalent of warming on the lid of a pot.
Fine. But all that gains you is indirection. Which not everyone
holds is necessary.
Also, it depends how hot this oven is. We keep it at about 200 for
reheating. Just barely on.
--
Jonathan Baker | Misheyatza Tishebov marbim besimcha?
jjb...@panix.com |
Web page: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
Cindy S.
Jonathan J. Baker <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:alb34n$rg2$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> In <om> "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> >Larry Lennhoff <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> Raphael
>
> >> [Larry resumes speaking for himself]
> >> This individual also said earlier in the discussion that he holds by
> >> "there is no cooking after cooking" to allow him to insert cold dry
> >> food into a hot oven on Shabbat itself. Ashkenazi custom forbids this
> >> as marat ayin.
>
> "Ashkenazi custom"? I know that there are a lot of people who
> won't do this, but since when has it been elevated to "Ashkenazi
> custom"? The Rav YBS reheated, the rabbonim Lookstein reheat,
> we reheat, plenty of Ashkenazim reheat.
I did not learn this as a *custom,* Ashkenazic or otherwise. I learned this
as basic halacha. Until this post, I never knew there were rabbonim that
held otherwise.
>
> >Larry, if I am the individual in question, I never said I hold that it is
> >permissible to insert cold, dry food into a hot oven on Shabbos. Chas
> >v'shalom! I was referring to hot food that was already in the oven from
>
> Now it's "Chas v'shalom" that people can reheat.
Yes, it is "chas v'shalom" when someone claims that I stated *I* hold
such-and-such way when I learned that such-and-such way is equivalent to
being mechallel shabbos.
I learned the halachos of shabbos cooking from Artscroll _The Shabbos
Kitchen_ and from _The Laws of Cooking on the Sabbath and Festivals_
Rosenberg, Ehud (Based on Shemirath Shabbath Kehilchathah). My rabbi holds
the same way as what I learned in these books. I live in a community
composed of both UO and MO Jews. I have had shabbos lunch in many people's
homes and never once have I seen anyone take anything out of the oven. Since
I'm not a mind reader, I couldn't possibly have known there were other
opinions on this subject. Had I known, I would not have said "Chas
v'shalom," but I would still have been annoyed that someone was attributing
statements to me (regarding my own practices) that I never made.
> >before shabbos and at least 2/3 cooked (that one may allow it to
passively
> >finish cooking). For the record, I would never take any food out of the
> >refrigerator (cooked or otherwise) and put it in the oven on shabbos nor
> >would I take hot food out of the oven and return it to the oven. The only
>
> Good for you. Plenty of frum Jews do, however, reheat.
Again, I wasn't being arrogant; I was being defensive. My statement was
never intended to be judgmental regarding someone else's practices. I'm
sorry you took it that way.
> >warming I would do of cold, dry food would be on the Unblech (tm), which
is
> >a special type of blech that is filled with water and is the halachic
> >equivalent of warming on the lid of a pot.
>
> Fine. But all that gains you is indirection. Which not everyone
> holds is necessary.
> Also, it depends how hot this oven is. We keep it at about 200 for
> reheating. Just barely on.
In the interest of avoiding potential confusion --You are saying that there
are rabbonim who hold that one may reheat cold foods with an *uncovered*
source of heat provided that the food is dry (no water or sauce) and that
the oven is barely warm (not a 350-degree oven that would normally be used
for cooking). Is this correct?
Thank you.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Jonathan J. Baker
>Jonathan J. Baker <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> >> [Larry {Lennhoff} resumes speaking for himself]
>> >> food into a hot oven on Shabbat itself. Ashkenazi custom forbids this
>> >> as marat ayin.
>> "Ashkenazi custom"? I know that there are a lot of people who
>> won't do this, but since when has it been elevated to "Ashkenazi
>> custom"? The Rav YBS reheated, the rabbonim Lookstein reheat,
>> we reheat, plenty of Ashkenazim reheat.
>I did not learn this as a *custom,* Ashkenazic or otherwise. I learned this
>as basic halacha. Until this post, I never knew there were rabbonim that
>held otherwise.
Minhag ashkenaz determines a fair amount of halacha, particularly
in subtleties of hil. shabbat and basar bechalav. Ashkenazi custom
really in the sense of Ashkenazi mesorah, which differs in some small
ways from Bavli mesorah. And this goes back before the kitniyot thing.
Ray Talqcom and I have locked horns over this often enough.
>> Fiona wrote:
>> >warming I would do of cold, dry food would be on the Unblech (tm), which
>> >a special type of blech that is filled with water and is the halachic
>> >equivalent of warming on the lid of a pot.
>> Fine. But all that gains you is indirection. Which not everyone
>> holds is necessary.
Most of our grandmothers used a regular blech, and moved pots around
on it when they wanted it to be warmer or cooler. In fact, most people
I know who use a blech, use it that way.
>> Also, it depends how hot this oven is. We keep it at about 200 for
>> reheating. Just barely on.
>In the interest of avoiding potential confusion --You are saying that there
>are rabbonim who hold that one may reheat cold foods with an *uncovered*
>source of heat provided that the food is dry (no water or sauce) and that
>the oven is barely warm (not a 350-degree oven that would normally be used
>for cooking). Is this correct?
Yes. But what "uncovered" source of heat? I don't know how ovens are
constructed in the UK, but in the US, there's a heating element (gas or
electric) outside the oven box. So there's a covering (the wall of the
box) between the pot and the flame.
The Rav Soloveitchik stipulated that if one is going to reheat in this
manner, that the food be *in* the oven at the time one lights candles
or otherwise accepts shabbat, even if one will put it in the fridge
later - because the status of an object at the instant Shabbat comes
in, does not change over the course of the day, as we see by the laws
of Muktza. Not everyone holds that even this condition is necessary.
As for cholent, not everyone holds by the 2/3 cooked rule (maachal ben
drusai?) as an absolute necessity - there are those who hold that if
the food is entirely raw, it can be placed on the blech/crockpot-warmer
just before Shabbat, and it will cook until Shabbat lunch. That is, not
edible by dinner-time.
--
Jonathan Baker | Ksivechsimetoiveh!
jjb...@panix.com | (It's a contraction, like Shkoiech, or Brshmo)
Webpage: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
Larry Lennhoff
>
> Larry, if I am the individual in question, I never said I hold that it is
> permissible to insert cold, dry food into a hot oven on Shabbos. Chas
> v'shalom!
> Best regards,
> --Cindy S.
Cindy
My apologies for my lack of clarity. The individual in question who
holds those views is Sephardic, and isn't you, unless you post on a
Delphi Forum under a male name. :>) Since they post elsewhere, I am
reluctant to identify them.
Gmar Tov
Larry
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>
>> [Larry resumes speaking for himself]
>> This individual also said earlier in the discussion that he holds by
>> "there is no cooking after cooking" to allow him to insert cold dry
>> food into a hot oven on Shabbat itself. Ashkenazi custom forbids this
>> as marat ayin.
>
> Larry, if I am the individual in question, I never said I hold that it is
> permissible to insert cold, dry food into a hot oven on Shabbos. Chas
> v'shalom! I was referring to hot food that was already in the oven from
> before shabbos and at least 2/3 cooked (that one may allow it to passively
> finish cooking). For the record, I would never take any food out of the
> refrigerator (cooked or otherwise) and put it in the oven on shabbos nor
> would I take hot food out of the oven and return it to the oven. The only
> warming I would do of cold, dry food would be on the Unblech (tm), which is
> a special type of blech that is filled with water and is the halachic
> equivalent of warming on the lid of a pot.
Never heard of the Unblech. Is it available commercialy? In Israel?
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
Gmar Chasima Tova.
Cindy S.
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2002Sep1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > Larry Lennhoff <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> Raphael
> >>
>
If you want to know more about it (and see a picture), go to
http://www.milechai.com/k/kdeirah.html I don't know if it's available in
Israel or not. I would be willing to bet that over 50% of the frum Jews in
my community have one, and everyone thinks it's great. (It's made by the
K'deirah Company.)
If it's not available in Israel, you can make your own. You will need a big
cookie sheet with edges, or a large jelly roll pan (the edges should be
approximately an inch high) and a piece of metal to cover the top. The metal
cover must be heavy enough to withstand the weight of a heavy kugel (or
whatever you intend to put on top of it) for several hours without caving
in. Before Shabbos, put one burner on a low heat, put the cookie sheet/jelly
roll pan on top of the burners, fill the pan with boiling water, put on the
cover, and voila! The water inside stays hot throughout Shabbos. You can use
it to reheat cold, dry foods directly from the refrigerator. (FYI: There may
be some poskim who say you can't, so like anything else, CYLOR) For issues
of food safety/bacterial growth, I would not recommend keeping food on the
Unblech overnight.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Harry Weiss
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:2002Sep1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
>> "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> > Larry Lennhoff <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> Raphael
>> >>
>>
>> Never heard of the Unblech. Is it available commercially? In Israel?
> If you want to know more about it (and see a picture), go to
> http://www.milechai.com/k/kdeirah.html I don't know if it's available in
> Israel or not. I would be willing to bet that over 50% of the frum Jews in
> my community have one, and everyone thinks it's great. (It's made by the
> K'deirah Company.)
Only one person here tried it and she found the unblech very clumsy to use
and gave up.
> If it's not available in Israel, you can make your own. You will need a big
> cookie sheet with edges, or a large jelly roll pan (the edges should be
> approximately an inch high) and a piece of metal to cover the top. The metal
> cover must be heavy enough to withstand the weight of a heavy kugel (or
> whatever you intend to put on top of it) for several hours without caving
> in. Before Shabbos, put one burner on a low heat, put the cookie sheet/jelly
> roll pan on top of the burners, fill the pan with boiling water, put on the
> cover, and voila! The water inside stays hot throughout Shabbos. You can use
> it to reheat cold, dry foods directly from the refrigerator. (FYI: There may
> be some poskim who say you can't, so like anything else, CYLOR) For issues
> of food safety/bacterial growth, I would not recommend keeping food on the
> Unblech overnight.
> Best regards,
> --Cindy S.
>> Moshe Schorr
>> It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
>> May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
>> Gmar Chasima Tova.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Larry Lennhoff
Queens, but we only use it as a standard blech (on the advice of our
LOR). However the water in the unblech still distributes the heat
more evenly across the whole blech, which we find an advantage.
Gemar Tov
Larry
Henry Goodman
"Larry Lennhoff" <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6262687f.02091...@posting.google.com...
I would find that a disadvantage. We move things around on the blech so
that, for example, the soup is made really hot before we drink it but is
otherwise at a lower temperature.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Cindy S.
Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:q%Yf9.217$Cw1....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
Wait a minute--
I don't want to step on any toes here, but I thought were not allowed to
heat liquids on Shabbos. My understanding was that one was not allowed to
rewarm liquids even on the Unblech.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
>
> --
> Henry Goodman
> henry....@virgin.net
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>
>> Never heard of the Unblech. Is it available commercially? In Israel?
>
> If you want to know more about it (and see a picture), go to
> http://www.milechai.com/k/kdeirah.html I don't know if it's available in
> Israel or not. I would be willing to bet that over 50% of the frum Jews in
> my community have one, and everyone thinks it's great. (It's made by the
> K'deirah Company.)
>
> If it's not available in Israel, you can make your own. You will need a big
> cookie sheet with edges, or a large jelly roll pan (the edges should be
> approximately an inch high) and a piece of metal to cover the top. The metal
> cover must be heavy enough to withstand the weight of a heavy kugel (or
> whatever you intend to put on top of it) for several hours without caving
> in. Before Shabbos, put one burner on a low heat, put the cookie sheet/jelly
> roll pan on top of the burners, fill the pan with boiling water, put on the
> cover, and voila! The water inside stays hot throughout Shabbos. You can use
> it to reheat cold, dry foods directly from the refrigerator. (FYI: There may
> be some poskim who say you can't, so like anything else, CYLOR) For issues
> of food safety/bacterial growth, I would not recommend keeping food on the
> Unblech overnight.
Many thanks for this information.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> > We have a couple of unblechs, which we purchased in the Supersol in
>> > Queens, but we only use it as a standard blech (on the advice of our
>> > LOR). However the water in the unblech still distributes the heat
>> > more evenly across the whole blech, which we find an advantage.
>>
>> I would find that a disadvantage. We move things around on the blech so
>> that, for example, the soup is made really hot before we drink it but is
>> otherwise at a lower temperature.
>
> Wait a minute--
>
> I don't want to step on any toes here, but I thought were not
> allowed to heat liquids on Shabbos. My understanding was that one
> was not allowed to rewarm liquids even on the Unblech.
But I understood Henry to be talking of food on the blech from before
Shabbos. The soup never cooled, he just wants it even hotter.
Cindy S.
> > Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> >> "Larry Lennhoff" <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >> that, for example, the soup is made really hot before we drink it but
is
> >> otherwise at a lower temperature.
> >
> > Wait a minute--
> >
> > allowed to heat liquids on Shabbos. My understanding was that one
> > was not allowed to rewarm liquids even on the Unblech.
>
> But I understood Henry to be talking of food on the blech from before
> Shabbos. The soup never cooled, he just wants it even hotter.
But it's just a matter of degrees (no pun intended). He's still adding heat
to a liquid on Shabbos. No?
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Henry Goodman
"Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RS0g9.34696$xm.81...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:2002Sep1...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> > "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > > Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > >> "Larry Lennhoff" <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
> > >> > We move things around on the blech so
> > >> that, for example, the soup is made really hot before we drink it but
> is
> > >> otherwise at a lower temperature.
> > >
> > > Wait a minute--
> > >
> > > I don't want to step on any toes here, but I thought we were not
> > > allowed to heat liquids on Shabbos. My understanding was that one
> > > was not allowed to rewarm liquids even on the Unblech.
> >
> > But I understood Henry to be talking of food on the blech from before
> > Shabbos. The soup never cooled, he just wants it even hotter.
>
> But it's just a matter of degrees (no pun intended). He's still adding
heat
> to a liquid on Shabbos. No?
>
As I understand the halacha, one can move pots containing liquids (e.g. a
kettle of water and a saucepan of soup) around on a blech (but not without a
blech) if
(a) they are hot (at least yad tzoledet) at candle-lighting time
(b) they never got really cold.
I like my soup really hot (near boiling) but if kept like that from
candle-lighting time it will boil away by the time we eat it. I ask my wife
to move it onto the part of the blech over the gas at a time estimated to be
15 minutes before I will get home from shul (Friday night)
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Cindy S.
Okay, that being the case...
To reiterate my original question for anyone who missed it: We were at
someone's house for shabbos dinner. The oven-timer had failed and when
shabbos began, the oven was still on and there was food in an oven. The
hostess directed her daughter that she was permitted to open the oven door
but "only once" to remove the food. I asked (on this forum) why this was the
case, and I got 2 different answers.
1. Opening the oven door would cause the oven to cool a bit and the oven
would turn itself back on to begin reheating (similar to the motor in the
refrigerator when the refrigerator door is opened). The former [oven
situation] was defined as a pesik resha deLo nihah leh (loosely: an
unavoidable consequence where the consequence is something undesireable)
Larry then asked (this is my interpretation of his question) : If the
melacha isn't cooking, but is instead causing the oven to re-ignite, then
why aren't we equally forbidden to open the refrigerator more than once
since when we open the refrigerator door, the motor comes on (to which no
one responded.)
Now, Cindy S. talking: It would seem to me that the refrigerator situation
would be a Pesik Resha DeNiha leh (loosely: an unavoidable consequence which
is desirable -- namely, in the case of the refrigerator, we want the
refrigerator motor to keep running and continue keeping the food cold). So,
kal v'chomer (how much more so) it should be forbidden. However, I assume
there are many poskim who do not hold this way because all the frum Jews I
know open the refrigerator multiple times on Shabbos, without waiting for
the motor to come on, and without removing all the food. Therefore, it would
seem that if the refrigerator door may be opened and closed multiple times,
kal v'chomer the oven door. [Or am I just really confused?]
2. The second possibility was that it was a case of hatmana (adding heat) to
the food. [i.e., when the oven door is open, the food cools a little, then
when it is closed, the food begins to reheat]
I know that hatmana is forbidden on shabbos. The classic example of hatmana
is wrapping the cholent pot in a blanket to increase the heat. However, now
Henry is telling me that it is all right to add heat if the food was yad
soledes [too hot to touch] at candlelighting and if it never really got
cold. In short, I don't understand why moving the kettle to a hotter area on
the blech is permitted (not hatmana?), but putting a blanket around the
cholent pot is forbidden (yes hatmana) and opening/closing the oven door
multiple times with piping hot, cooked food inside is also forbidden (yes
hatmana).
USUAL DISCLAIMER: This is for discussion only. Each person should consult
his LOR regarding the laws of cooking on Shabbos.
I think I should stick with learning gemara; it's much easier:-)
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> > > "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> > > > Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>> > > >> "Larry Lennhoff" <llen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > >
>> > > >> We move things around on the blech so that, for
>> > > >> example, the soup is made really hot before we
>> > > >> drink it but is otherwise at a lower temperature.
>> > > >
>> > > > Wait a minute--
>> > > >
>> > > > I don't want to step on any toes here, but I thought we were not
>> > > > allowed to heat liquids on Shabbos. My understanding was that one
>> > > > was not allowed to rewarm liquids even on the Unblech.
>> > >
>> > > But I understood Henry to be talking of food on the blech from before
>> > > Shabbos. The soup never cooled, he just wants it even hotter.
>> >
>> > But it's just a matter of degrees (no pun intended). He's still
>> > adding heat to a liquid on Shabbos. No?
Yes, but why do you think that's forbidden in every case?
You seem to have conflated several different rules/situations. To get
back to the hot soup; "hatmana" literally means "hiding". As you say,
the classic example of hatmana is wrapping the cholent pot in a
blanket". _you added the words "to increase the heat". I'm not sure
this is part of the original rule. IINM, Hatmana is forbidden on
Shabbos, even if it will _not_ increase the heat. OTOH, shifting hot
foods around on the blech, in order to increase the heat in some, is
_not_ "hiding" or "covering" the pot.
> USUAL DISCLAIMER: This is for discussion only. Each person should
> consult his LOR regarding the laws of cooking on Shabbos.
For sure.
> I think I should stick with learning gemara; it's much easier:-)
That's why there are more gemara teachers than qualified poskim.
>> I like my soup really hot (near boiling) but if kept like that
>> from candle-lighting time it will boil away by the time we eat it.
>> I ask my wife to move it onto the part of the blech over the gas
>> at a time estimated to be 15 minutes before I will get home from
>> shul (Friday night)
Enjoy, enjoy.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
Piska Tova.
Larry Lennhoff
> 2. The second possibility was that it was a case of hatmana (adding heat) to
> the food. [i.e., when the oven door is open, the food cools a little, then
> when it is closed, the food begins to reheat]
>
> I know that hatmana is forbidden on shabbos. The classic example of hatmana
> is wrapping the cholent pot in a blanket to increase the heat.
Rosenberg hatmana requires that the covering be in close contact with
the pot. I don't see how closing an oven door could qualify.
On a related question: does hatmana apply inside a pot? Let's suppose
we wrap cold cooked chicken in tinfoil and put it in a dry pot before
Shabbat. Then we put the pot on the blech (also before shabbat).
Normally Hatmana with heat is forbidden on Shabbat even if it was set
up before Shabbat. But in this case the food is not on the fire at
all, but inside a pot. Do people believe this is also forbidden?
Gmar Tov
Larry
R
>
> "Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<574g9.250013$vg.42...@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
> > 2. The second possibility was that it was a case of hatmana (adding heat) to
> > the food. [i.e., when the oven door is open, the food cools a little, then
> > when it is closed, the food begins to reheat]
> >
> > I know that hatmana is forbidden on shabbos. The classic example of hatmana
> > is wrapping the cholent pot in a blanket to increase the heat.
> According to The Laws of Cooking on the Sabbath and Festivals by Ehud
> Rosenberg hatmana requires that the covering be in close contact with
> the pot. I don't see how closing an oven door could qualify.
Obviously it is NOT hatmana. Because if it were hatmana it would
be a hatmana bedavar shemosif hevel (since the flame is going
inside the oven), and hatmana bedavar shemosif hevel is forbidden
even when it is put up on Friday. You are correct -- only if the
covering contacts the pot from all sides is it hatmana. Inside
the oven is shehiya, not hatmana.
>
> On a related question: does hatmana apply inside a pot? Let's suppose
> we wrap cold cooked chicken in tinfoil and put it in a dry pot before
> Shabbat. Then we put the pot on the blech (also before shabbat).
> Normally Hatmana with heat is forbidden on Shabbat even if it was set
> up before Shabbat. But in this case the food is not on the fire at
> all, but inside a pot. Do people believe this is also forbidden?
While I can't answer as to what "poeple believe," the answer to
the underlying qhestion is no, it is not hatmana.
Sheldon Ackerman
>> On a related question: does hatmana apply inside a pot? Let's suppose
>> we wrap cold cooked chicken in tinfoil and put it in a dry pot before
>> Shabbat. Then we put the pot on the blech (also before shabbat).
>> Normally Hatmana with heat is forbidden on Shabbat even if it was set
>> up before Shabbat. But in this case the food is not on the fire at
>> all, but inside a pot. Do people believe this is also forbidden?
>
>While I can't answer as to what "poeple believe," the answer to
>the underlying qhestion is no, it is not hatmana.
Sounds like a tricky question to me. What if the pot is not dry. Let us say
you put a piece of kugel into the pot of chulent, but you do not want the
kugel to fall apart so you wrap it in silver foil. My rav said that you
should not completely wrap the item you are putting into the pot but leave
it a bit open so that there is no question of Hatmana.
R
I think your rav may be being overly aprehensive. The chulent is
liquid, and will penetrate the foil wrapping to some extent. The
kugel is cooking in the chulent. So unless someone can point me
to a specific citation to the contrary, i would have to say it is
not hatmana but shehiya.
Yisroel Markov
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
[snip]
>2. The second possibility was that it was a case of hatmana (adding heat) to
>the food. [i.e., when the oven door is open, the food cools a little, then
>when it is closed, the food begins to reheat]
>
>I know that hatmana is forbidden on shabbos. The classic example of hatmana
>is wrapping the cholent pot in a blanket to increase the heat.
Perhaps someone can explain this one to me. Every time I read about
hatmana, it's allowed unless it "increases the heat." This is applied
across the board, even when the pot in question *is no longer on the
fire*.
Now how can heat increase once a pot is removed from the fire? At that
point, insulation can't do anything but help retain existing heat
(unless the cholent has some ingredients that undergo an exothermic
reaction :-). To say that the pot can be so tightly wrapped as to
*increase* its heat is to argue with the Second Law of thermodynamics,
not exactly a winning proposition. What am I missing here?
Yisroel Markov Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Sheldon Ackerman
>I think your rav may be being overly aprehensive. The chulent is
>liquid, and will penetrate the foil wrapping to some extent. The
>kugel is cooking in the chulent. So unless someone can point me
>to a specific citation to the contrary, i would have to say it is
>not hatmana but shehiya.
The kugel is being put into the cholent before Shabbos. We are assuming that
silver foil is "mosif hevel".
Raphael
>Now how can heat increase once a pot is removed from the fire? At that
>point, insulation can't do anything but help retain existing heat
>(unless the cholent has some ingredients that undergo an exothermic
>reaction :-). To say that the pot can be so tightly wrapped as to
>*increase* its heat is to argue with the Second Law of thermodynamics,
>not exactly a winning proposition. What am I missing here?
>
>Yisroel Markov
The way it was explained to me years ago, when organic material decomposes, it
releases heat. Most of the stuff that the gemara in Shabbos says one may not
use as hatmana is organic. Hence as it continues to decompose, not only does it
preserve the heat of the food, it gets it warmer.
WARNING. I am not a physicist. This is not a physics paper.
Micha Berger
: The way it was explained to me years ago, when organic material decomposes, it
: releases heat. Most of the stuff that the gemara in Shabbos says one may not
: use as hatmana is organic. Hence as it continues to decompose, not only does it
: preserve the heat of the food, it gets it warmer.
Heating is only significant when it brings you across the yad soledes
bo (hand would get scalded by it) barrier, or would melt or boil the
item in question. Not an issue for decomposing organic material, unless
it bursts into spontaneous combustion.
Here it's a rabbinic prohibition, as allowing any procedure that adds
heat would open the door to people using the wrong procedures. See
Shabbos 39a, and Tosafos ad loc "Elah".
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905 - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l
Raphael
>it
>: releases heat. Most of the stuff that the gemara in Shabbos says one may
>not
>: use as hatmana is organic. Hence as it continues to decompose, not only
>does it
>: preserve the heat of the food, it gets it warmer.
>
>Heating is only significant when it brings you across the yad soledes
>bo (hand would get scalded by it) barrier, or would melt or boil the
>item in question. Not an issue for decomposing organic material, unless
>it bursts into spontaneous combustion.
>
>Here it's a rabbinic prohibition, as allowing any procedure that adds
>heat would open the door to people using the wrong procedures. See
>Shabbos 39a, and Tosafos ad loc "Elah".
>
>-mi
>
Yisroel asked how something could be mosif hevel. I never thought that rotting
olive skins could reach yad soledes bo.
Micha Berger
:>Heating is only significant when it brings you across the yad soledes
:>bo (hand would get scalded by it) barrier, or would melt or boil the
:>item in question. Not an issue for decomposing organic material, unless
:>it bursts into spontaneous combustion.
:>Here it's a rabbinic prohibition, as allowing any procedure that adds
:>heat would open the door to people using the wrong procedures. See
:>Shabbos 39a, and Tosafos ad loc "Elah".
: Yisroel asked how something could be mosif hevel. I never thought that rotting
: olive skins could reach yad soledes bo.
Here I was trying to preempt this question, and I made it worse! Sorry.
The biblical prohibition requires crossing yad soledes bo or a state-change
in the item.
This is a rabbinic fence, and therefore does not.
With that intro, does my post make more sense?
Yisroel Markov
<mi...@aishdas.org> said:
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:01:52 +0000 (UTC), Raphael <raphae...@aol.com> wrote:
>: The way it was explained to me years ago, when organic material decomposes, it
>: releases heat. Most of the stuff that the gemara in Shabbos says one may not
>: use as hatmana is organic. Hence as it continues to decompose, not only does it
>: preserve the heat of the food, it gets it warmer.
>
>Heating is only significant when it brings you across the yad soledes
>bo (hand would get scalded by it) barrier, or would melt or boil the
>item in question. Not an issue for decomposing organic material, unless
>it bursts into spontaneous combustion.
>
>Here it's a rabbinic prohibition, as allowing any procedure that adds
>heat would open the door to people using the wrong procedures. See
>Shabbos 39a, and Tosafos ad loc "Elah".
So are the rabbis saying that there *is* an exothermic reaction going
on in a cholent pot? If so, I'm even more confused. The heat effect
from any such reaction is liable to be vanishingly small, so what are
they warding against with this prohibition? You say: "allowing any
procedure that adds heat would open the door to people using the wrong
procedure." For this to be true, IMHO, you need to show that: 1)
either there *is* a procedure that actually adds heat or people
commonly believed that there is one (wrapping); and 2) that allowing
this would actually lead to something improper. And how about the
applicability of this principle to this day and age?
I will b"n look at the Gemara you cited, but in the meantime I'm
curious about your opinion.
Micha Berger
: For this to be true, IMHO, you need to show that: 1)
: either there *is* a procedure that actually adds heat or people
: commonly believed that there is one (wrapping); and 2) that allowing
: this would actually lead to something improper. And how about the
: applicability of this principle to this day and age?
The gemara actually does #1. One can't use something that adds small
amount of heat because people will come to insulate using still-hot
ashes.
My own 2 agurot: It was common to bury pots in ashes, whether slightly
warm or hot, in their day. Allowing use of slightly warm was too close
to allowing people to use overly hot.
As for #2: Find a Sanhedrin to repeal it, and argue it with them. Until
then, the law stands. The basic problem is proving that the gemara
identifies the sole reason for the law, as opposed to one/the primary
reason.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905 - R' Binyamin Hecht
Jonathan J. Baker
>00 (UTC), Micha Berger
>>00 (UTC), Raphael <raphae...@aol.com> wrote:
>>: The way it was explained to me years ago, when organic material decomposes, it
>>: releases heat. Most of the stuff that the gemara in Shabbos says one may not
>>: use as hatmana is organic. Hence as it continues to decompose, not only does it
>>: preserve the heat of the food, it gets it warmer.
>>Heating is only significant when it brings you across the yad soledes
>>bo (hand would get scalded by it) barrier, or would melt or boil the
>>item in question. Not an issue for decomposing organic material, unless
>>it bursts into spontaneous combustion.
>>Here it's a rabbinic prohibition, as allowing any procedure that adds
>>heat would open the door to people using the wrong procedures. See
>>Shabbos 39a, and Tosafos ad loc "Elah".
>So are the rabbis saying that there *is* an exothermic reaction going
>on in a cholent pot? If so, I'm even more confused. The heat effect
...
>procedure." For this to be true, IMHO, you need to show that: 1)
>either there *is* a procedure that actually adds heat or people
>commonly believed that there is one (wrapping); and 2) that allowing
>this would actually lead to something improper. And how about the
>applicability of this principle to this day and age?
It's simple, innit? We aren't supposed to wrap up things that
might get hotter, from what they had in the desert during the
40 years: they weren't supposed to wrap up their pots on Shabbat
for fear of exothermic reactions, because they weren't supposed
to have Hot Manna.
ba-dump bump.
--
Jonathan Baker | Ksivechsimetoiveh!
jjb...@panix.com | (It's a contraction, like Shkoiech, or Brshmo)
Webpage: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
GEVALT! Yes, I know it's called "Yom kePurim", but it's OVER ALREADY!!!
:-) :-) :-)
-Shlomo-
Yisroel Markov
[grin] I prefer Micha's answer.
>ba-dump bump.
Error C1543: Unknown cultural reference.
Steve G.
> Perhaps someone can explain this one to me. Every time I read about
> hatmana, it's allowed unless it "increases the heat." This is applied
> across the board, even when the pot in question *is no longer on the
> fire*.
>
> Now how can heat increase once a pot is removed from the fire? At that
> point, insulation can't do anything but help retain existing heat
> (unless the cholent has some ingredients that undergo an exothermic
> reaction :-). To say that the pot can be so tightly wrapped as to
> *increase* its heat is to argue with the Second Law of thermodynamics,
> not exactly a winning proposition. What am I missing here?
Y'know, in this case I'm going to take the opposite side -- this
ruling is consistent with a prohibition on "cooking." Wrapping a pot
doesn't increase its temperature, of course, but it does increase
cooking by reducing cooling. A covered pot boils faster than an
uncovered one, after all. A good cook will generally remove food from
the heat BEFORE it's done, because it continues to cook after you
remove it from the oven. If you cover it in foil, it will cook more.
In fact, I just saw a recipe on TV that called for putting big chunks
of broccoli rabe on the grill for few moments, removing them while
still effectively uncooked, then putting them under foil so that the
steam would actually do the cooking.
If you didn't have this rule, what would stop you from putting raw
food in a very low oven but leaving the door open, so that the food
wouldn't actually cook, then shutting the door a few hours before you
wanted it done? That would certainly be "cooking" in my book.
--sg
Jonathan J. Baker
>> Perhaps someone can explain this one to me. Every time I read about
>> hatmana, it's allowed unless it "increases the heat." This is applied
>> across the board, even when the pot in question *is no longer on the
>> fire*.
>> Now how can heat increase once a pot is removed from the fire? At that
>Y'know, in this case I'm going to take the opposite side -- this
>ruling is consistent with a prohibition on "cooking." Wrapping a pot
>doesn't increase its temperature, of course, but it does increase
>cooking by reducing cooling....
>If you didn't have this rule, what would stop you from putting raw
>food in a very low oven but leaving the door open, so that the food
>wouldn't actually cook, then shutting the door a few hours before you
>wanted it done? That would certainly be "cooking" in my book.
Spoilage? Thus creating the exothermic reaction...