Need help with my mother's Hebrew name

[General Schvantzkoph]

My mother passed away in February so I need her Hebrew name for the stone.
Her name in English was Charlotte Anne. When my father passed away ten
years ago I asked her what her Hebrew name was and she told me what
sounded like Zipahana to me, but I think I misheard (I'm a little deaf and
I don't speak Hebrew). In poking around the Internet I found one reference
to Charlotte as Tziporah so my best guess would be Tziporah Hanna. Does
this sound possible? Are there other possibilities?

Thanks,

[DORIS LADAN]

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Need help with my mother's Hebrew name
Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated
Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 1:53pm (PDT+7)
From: General Schvantzkoph <schvan...@yahoo.com>

---------------------------
YES -- TZIPORAH HANNA SOUNDS RIGHT TO ME --
IT IS A BEAUTIFUL NAME -- MAYBE MICHA COULD COME ANSWER FOR YOU --
-
I AM VERY SORRY FOR THE PAIN OF YOUR LOSS OF YOUR MOTHER -- MAY SHE REST
IN PEACE ALWAYS ----
DVORA

[Arthur Kamlet]

In article <a3m8ag...@mid.individual.net>,

In the bible we read that Moses married Tzipporah. And Hannah was the
mother of the great judge/prophet, Samuel.
--

ArtKamlet at a o l dot c o m Columbus OH K2PZH

[General Schvantzkoph]

Thank you. She was almost 94 so she had a long life.

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Jun 11, 9:53 am, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

If you are looking for a "Hebrew" name, you may be disappointed. Not
every jewish name is Hebrew, more especially in the case of feminine
names. Tzipora is indeed a Hebrew name. But you say that your other
told you her name is Tzippa Channa. Tzippa is not the same as Tzipora.
Tzippa is a Jewish name, though not Hebrew. It is a perfectly
legitimate Jewish name. It would be a tragedy if your mother's real
Jewish name were supressed in favour of some imagined Hebrew name that
is not really here name.

Spelling: Tzippa = tzaddik-yood-pay-aleph. Chana: chess-noon-hay.

GEK
Gershon Eliyahu ben Devora Tzippora (in my mother's case, Tzippora,
not Tzippa).

[DORIS LADAN]

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Re: Need help with my mother's Hebrew name
Group: soc.culture.jewish.moderated
Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2012, 3:33pm (PDT+7)

------------------------------------------
YES 94 IS A LONG LIFE - I HOPE IT WAS ALSO FOR THE MOST PART A GOOD LIFE
-

[General Schvantzkoph]

My mother was the last of her generation so there is no one left to ask,
assuming that anyone knew. Tzippora sounds close to what she told me 10
years ago, and Hannah or Hanna is the straight forward version of Anne.
Her siblings called her Henny which is clearly the diminutive of Hanna/
Hannah/Channa.

[mm]

I was named after my uncle, who died in WWII, so it was easy to find
his grave and his stone (matzeva) and see what exactly his name was.
It might be a lot harder if your mother was named after someone who
died in Europe. I don't know where my great grandparents are buried,
well, two or four of them are probably in the Jewish cemetery in
Eysheshuk, if there was one. . I have a book about the town and
could read it, but most towns don't have a book about them.

Google teased me and I thought this page would be closer to your
situation, but the line break doesn't show in the google excerpt.
Still http://www.zabludow.com/zabludownecrology1.html shows that the
Livitski family had members name Zipa and Hana.


I don't think INTROLIGATOR is an English word, but maybe it's
Spanish., since the page begain in Argentina.
--

Meir

[mm]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:53:21 +0000 (UTC), General Schvantzkoph
<schvan...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>My mother passed away in February

I'm sorry to hear that. Even though she was almost 94. My mother was
88, and I wish she had lived longer.

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Monday, June 11, 2012 9:09:42 PM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
Tzipa / Tzipi are both shortings of Tzipora
and are Hebrew !!!!!

>Tzipa Tzadik yod Pe He
ציפה

mirjam

[Paul S Wolf]

On 6/11/2012 4:34 PM, mm wrote:

> I don't think INTROLIGATOR is an English word, but maybe it's
> Spanish., since the page begain in Argentina.

INTROLIGATOR is apparently POLISH for "Bookbinder" A quick Google
search brought up a link to the a wikipedia page, which translates to this:

Bookbinder - a craftsman engaged in hand- dressing of various
publications , and decoration lighting (mostly vintage), the employee
printing (binding books).

Then Google provided a list of pages about individuals with the last
name Interligator.

The closest I could think of of a word in English spelled close to that
would be INTERLOCATOR:

From Wikipedia:

Interlocutor may refer to:

Interlocutor (music), the master of ceremonies of a minstrel show
Interlocutor (politics), someone who informally explains the views
of a government and also can relay messages back to a government
Interlocutor (law), an order of any Scottish Court.
Interlocutor (linguistics), a participant in a discourse.

--
Paul S. Wolf, PE (Ret.), FITE
mailto:paul....@alum.wpi.edu
Fellow, Institute of Transportation Engineers

[General Schvantzkoph]

My mother was in the middle of 10 and her grandparents were still alive
when she was born so there wouldn't have been anyone in the US who she
would have been named for. Two of her grandparents came from Latvia but
the only thing we know about that is that they were living in Riga before
they came to the US in the early 1880s. It's really unlikely that that any
Jew was born in Riga in the 1850s or 1860s, they would have been born in a
shetl and then moved to a city when Czar Alexander II liberalized things.
Her other grandparents came from "Russia" which could be anyplace in the
Russian empire.

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Jun 11, 5:24 pm, mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
> On Monday, June 11, 2012 9:09:42 PM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>
> Tzipa / Tzipi are both shortings of Tzipora
> and are Hebrew !!!!!

In modern Hebrew, invented by the Zionists. Not in the Hebrew of which
ancient Jewish names are derived. You are correct about Tzippi, that
is a diminutive of Tzippora. But Tzippa is not. It is an etirely
different name, though modern Israelis, may mispronounce Tzippi as
Tzippa, just as they have eliminated nearly every other long vowel. In
the Halachic books that deal with names and how they are written,
Tzippa (tzaddik-yood-pay-aleph) is listed separately from Tzippora. It
is a Yiddish name. yes, i know, the Zionists want to eliminate any
traces of yiddish culture. But if one wishes to know what the correct
name is, then if the correct name is Tzippa, Tzippora is wrong. In the
case of General's mother, I don't know which it is. But since he did
originally quote it as Tzippa Hanna, the posibility that it is Tzippa
cannot be dismissed just because the Zionists do not recognise such a
name.

We had a neighbour named Bluma. The Zionists brainwashed her into
insisting that her name was Shoshanna. When her husband divorced her,
fortunately the rabbi who arranged the get did make diligent inquiry,
so that the get had the correct name, and the two children she had
with her second husband were not mamzerim.

GEK

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Jun 11, 5:24 pm, mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

Not at all. Tzippa is spelt with an aleph at the end, not an hay.

GEK

[JJ]

"Giorgies E Kepipesiom" <kepip...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c7d630d3-a90c-4a94...@z19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

On Jun 11, 5:24 pm, mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
> On Monday, June 11, 2012 9:09:42 PM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>
> Tzipa / Tzipi are both shortings of Tzipora
> and are Hebrew !!!!!
>
> >Tzipa Tzadik yod Pe He
>

> ????

Not at all. Tzippa is spelt with an aleph at the end, not an hay.

GEK

*************************************************

Nope. Mirjam has the right spelling -- Tzippah ends with a HEH. As
evidence, I will direct you to my mother's cousin, born in Haifa in the mid-
1920s.

Jay

[mm]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:34:18 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>Google teased me and I thought this page would be closer to your
>situation, but the line break doesn't show in the google excerpt.
>Still http://www.zabludow.com/zabludownecrology1.html shows that the
>Livitski family had members name Zipa and Hana.

More likely realy Tsipa, right? Why is it that tsadee is so often
trnaliterated with a z, not tz but z. At least a leading tsadee,
like in Zion, instead of Tsion. Tzion? Or Tzipora, Tsipora.

[mm]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:25:38 +0000 (UTC), Paul S Wolf
<paul....@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:

>On 6/11/2012 4:34 PM, mm wrote:
>
>> I don't think INTROLIGATOR is an English word, but maybe it's
>> Spanish., since the page begain in Argentina.
>
>INTROLIGATOR is apparently POLISH for "Bookbinder" A quick Google
>search brought up a link to the a wikipedia page, which translates to this:
>
>Bookbinder - a craftsman engaged in hand- dressing of various
>publications , and decoration lighting (mostly vintage), the employee
>printing (binding books).
>
>Then Google provided a list of pages about individuals with the last
>name Interligator.

Thanks a lot, Paul.

>The closest I could think of of a word in English spelled close to that
>would be INTERLOCATOR:

Right, the similarity in form to that is why I thought it might be
Spanish. Spanish has a few other words that could just as easily
exist in Spanish as English, but don't.

Polish didn't occur to me.

And there is Hyman Bookbinder, whose parents were from Poland and
probably translated the name from Polish. He died just a year ago .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/hyman-bookbinder-colorful-advocate-for-jewish-causes-dies-at-95/2011/07/22/gIQA24kHUI_story.html
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/07/21/3088657/hyman-bookbinder-longtime-ajc-dc-rep-dies

> From Wikipedia:
>
>Interlocutor may refer to:
>
> Interlocutor (music), the master of ceremonies of a minstrel show
> Interlocutor (politics), someone who informally explains the views
> of a government and also can relay messages back to a government
> Interlocutor (law), an order of any Scottish Court.
> Interlocutor (linguistics), a participant in a discourse.

--

Meir

[Arthur Kamlet]

In article <8loct7dtsf1ro43pf...@4ax.com>,

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>Why is it that tsadee is so often

>transliterated with a z, not tz but z.

Many typesetters used to show a tsadee as a z with a dot underneath,
and also a ches was an h with a dot underneath.


Over time typsetters just stipped using dots underneath letters.

[mm]

On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:19:56 +0000 (UTC), kam...@panix.com (Arthur
Kamlet) wrote:

>In article <8loct7dtsf1ro43pf...@4ax.com>,
>mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>Why is it that tsadee is so often
>>transliterated with a z, not tz but z.
>
>Many typesetters used to show a tsadee as a z with a dot underneath,
>and also a ches was an h with a dot underneath.
>
>
>Over time typsetters just stipped using dots underneath letters.

Wow. Undertatandable (even if I don't like the result) Thanks, Art.
--

Meir

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

dvo...@msn.com (DORIS LADAN) writes:
> From: General Schvantzkoph <schvan...@yahoo.com>

>
> My mother passed away in February so I need her Hebrew name for the
> stone. Her name in English was Charlotte Anne. When my father passed
> away ten years ago I asked her what her Hebrew name was and she told me
> what sounded like Zipahana to me, but I think I misheard (I'm a little
> deaf and I don't speak Hebrew). In poking around the Internet I found
> one reference to Charlotte as Tziporah so my best guess would be
> Tziporah Hanna. Does this sound possible? Are there other possibilities?
> Thanks,

> ---------------------------
> YES -- TZIPORAH HANNA SOUNDS RIGHT TO ME --
> IT IS A BEAUTIFUL NAME -- MAYBE MICHA COULD COME ANSWER FOR YOU --
> -
> I AM VERY SORRY FOR THE PAIN OF YOUR LOSS OF YOUR MOTHER -- MAY
> SHE REST IN PEACE ALWAYS ----

That's the difference between Dvora and me. I read the post and
began thinking in halachic terms. Dvora had the presence of mind
to offer condolences.

--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepip...@hotmail.com> writes:
> We had a neighbour named Bluma. The Zionists brainwashed her into
> insisting that her name was Shoshanna.

We had a similar situation. When we came on aliya, in 1973, they
nsisted that my daughter, Rayzel, must be named Vered. It didn't
stay Vered for too long!

[Henry Goodman]

"General Schvantzkoph" <schvan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a3msqs...@mid.individual.net...

Sorry to hear of your loss, I wish you Chaim Aruchim.
Is there any possibility of finding your mother's Kesuva?

--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net

>

[Fattush]

On Jun 11, 3:35 pm, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Question: is there a document such as a ketubah with her Hebrew name?

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Jun 12, 5:08 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

> Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepipes...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > We had a neighbour named Bluma. The Zionists brainwashed her into
> > insisting that her name was Shoshanna.
>
> We had a similar situation. When we came on aliya, in 1973, they
> nsisted that my daughter, Rayzel, must be named Vered. It didn't
> stay Vered for too long!

It could have ben worse. They could have changed Rayzel into Tzemuka.

GEK

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepip...@hotmail.com> writes:

LOL. The name was "Rayzel" not "Raisin"!

[Fattush]

On Jun 11, 9:53 am, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

General S., my deepest sympathies on the passing of your mother. I
hope you can take comfort in the thought that your mom loved very
much, and like any good mom, would want
you to be happy, healthy and successful in life.

Do you have an aunt, uncle or other relative who might now her Hebrew
name?

[General Schvantzkoph]

She was the last of her generation.

Josh

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:51:38 AM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
> > ציפה
> Not at all. Tzippa is spelt with an aleph at the end, not an hay.

i really have to be careful and not comment about that dry grass......
mirjam
>
> GEK

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:49:32 AM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>
> In modern Hebrew, invented by the Zionists.

It was not invented it was developed on the base of ancient Hebrew and with more words to enable people to live in their Own time.

> Not in the Hebrew of which
> ancient Jewish names are derived.

?????????????? I am too polite to even walk this pass with you.... many Jewish names were added to our Names Lists, during the Diasporas,which were taken from the local langugages and had nothing to do with Hebrew!!!!!

> Tzippa, just as they have eliminated nearly every other long vowel. In
> the Halachic books that deal with names and how they are written,
> Tzippa (tzaddik-yood-pay-aleph)

Sorry you are mistaken, Tzipa is written with a HE at the end !!!!!
I am aware that some names ending with A, were spelled in Yiddish with an Aleph, but it did not change their ORIGIN, it only changed the spelling!!!

Tzipa was always a shortening of Tziporah

It is a Jewish name with Hebrew root !!!!!

> is a Yiddish name. yes, i know, the Zionists want to eliminate any
> traces of yiddish culture.

You are generations behind in your historical knowledge and conceptions.
if your claim was true how come we have a paid by the Zionist government

http://www.yiddishpiel.co.il/index.php?page_id=10

> But if one wishes to know what the correct
> name is, then if the correct name is Tzippa, Tzippora is wrong. In the
> case of General's mother, I don't know which it is. But since he did
> originally quote it as Tzippa Hanna, the posibility that it is Tzippa
> cannot be dismissed just because the Zionists do not recognise such a
> name.

Interesting i will tell to the Tzipas i know !!!!!

>
> We had a neighbour named Bluma. The Zionists brainwashed her into
> insisting that her name was Shoshanna.

So the woman wanted to have a Hebrew name and not a name with a diaspora hint to it, have you evidensed that the brain washed her. Immediately after the Shoah. many people preffered to have Hebrew names, that will not be painful to their ears. they tried to live again!!!

> When her husband divorced her,
> fortunately the rabbi who arranged the get did make diligent inquiry,
> so that the get had the correct name, and the two children she had
> with her second husband were not mamzerim.

Somehow this story sound very odd to me . If the woman was grown up she would have known that her former name was Bluma!!!!!

mirjam

[mm]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:06:06 +0000 (UTC), mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

>On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:49:32 AM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>>
>> In modern Hebrew, invented by the Zionists.
>It was not invented it was developed on the base of ancient Hebrew and with more words to enable people to live in their Own time.
>
>> Not in the Hebrew of which
>> ancient Jewish names are derived.
>?????????????? I am too polite to even walk this pass with you.... many Jewish names were added to our Names Lists, during the Diasporas,which were taken from the local langugages and had nothing to do with Hebrew!!!!!

Giorgies, why is it acceptable for someone to be called to the Torah,
married, and buried under a Yiddish name which is not based on Hebrew
at all, but not acceptable to you to spell in Hebrew what you say is a
Yiddish name. Do you ever spell your Hebrew name in Latin/English
characters?

You know, my own name, Meir, is not found in the Torah, nor the whole
Tanach I think, yet it was good enough for my uncle and the famous
Rabbi Meir. Even if Tsipi or Tsipah with a heh were new names, why
woudl that be wrong?

>> Tzippa, just as they have eliminated nearly every other long vowel. In
>> the Halachic books that deal with names and how they are written,
>> Tzippa (tzaddik-yood-pay-aleph)
>Sorry you are mistaken, Tzipa is written with a HE at the end !!!!!
>I am aware that some names ending with A, were spelled in Yiddish with an Aleph, but it did not change their ORIGIN, it only changed the spelling!!!
>
>Tzipa was always a shortening of Tziporah
>
> It is a Jewish name with Hebrew root !!!!!
>
>> is a Yiddish name. yes, i know, the Zionists want to eliminate any
>> traces of yiddish culture.
>You are generations behind in your historical knowledge and conceptions.
>if your claim was true how come we have a paid by the Zionist government
>
>http://www.yiddishpiel.co.il/index.php?page_id=10
>
>> But if one wishes to know what the correct
>> name is, then if the correct name is Tzippa, Tzippora is wrong. In the
>> case of General's mother, I don't know which it is. But since he did
>> originally quote it as Tzippa Hanna, the posibility that it is Tzippa
>> cannot be dismissed just because the Zionists do not recognise such a
>> name.
>
>Interesting i will tell to the Tzipas i know !!!!!
>>
>> We had a neighbour named Bluma. The Zionists brainwashed her into
>> insisting that her name was Shoshanna.
>So the woman wanted to have a Hebrew name and not a name with a diaspora hint to it, have you evidensed that the brain washed her. Immediately after the Shoah. many people preffered to have Hebrew names, that will not be painful to their ears. they tried to live again!!!
>
>> When her husband divorced her,
>> fortunately the rabbi who arranged the get did make diligent inquiry,

Last summer I bought a used car, and the signature transferring the
out of state title didn't match something, and the DMV or Maryland
also wanted the original name on the document. The owner had gottten
married since she bought the car, and the dealer had to fax a signed
form saying that the two women were one and the same.

So, it's not just divorce rabbis who want the original name on a
document, but that doesn't make a later name a bad one. Did your
wife change her last name when she got married? Was that a bad thing?

>> so that the get had the correct name, and the two children she had
>> with her second husband were not mamzerim.
>Somehow this story sound very odd to me . If the woman was grown up she would have known that her former name was Bluma!!!!!
>
>mirjam

--

Meir

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

mir...@actcom.co.il writes:

> Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>
>> Not at all. Tzippa is spelt with an aleph at the end, not an hay.
>
> i really have to be careful and not comment about that dry grass......

LOL.

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

mir...@actcom.co.il writes:
> Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:

>>=20

>> In modern Hebrew, invented by the Zionists.
>
> It was not invented it was developed on the base of ancient Hebrew
> and with more words to enable people to live in their Own time.
>
>> Not in the Hebrew of which ancient Jewish names are derived.

> ??????????????

I understand your question.

> I am too polite to even walk this pass with you....

But I don't understand this phrase.

> many Jewish names were added to our Names Lists, during the

> Diasporas, which were taken from the local langugages and had

> nothing to do with Hebrew!!!!!

For sure.

>> Tzippa, just as they have eliminated nearly every other long vowel.
>> In the Halachic books that deal with names and how they are written,
>> Tzippa (tzaddik-yood-pay-aleph)
>
> Sorry you are mistaken, Tzipa is written with a HE at the end !!!!!
> I am aware that some names ending with A, were spelled in Yiddish
> with an Aleph, but it did not change their ORIGIN, it only changed
> the spelling!!!

That's what Giorgies said, the spelling was changed.

> Tzipa was always a shortening of Tziporah
>
> It is a Jewish name with Hebrew root !!!!!
>
>> is a Yiddish name. yes, i know, the Zionists want to eliminate any
>> traces of yiddish culture.
>
> You are generations behind in your historical knowledge and conceptions.
> if your claim was true how come we have a paid by the Zionist government
>
> http://www.yiddishpiel.co.il/index.php?page_id=10

I wonder if Giorgies will appreciate this.

>> But if one wishes to know what the correct
>> name is, then if the correct name is Tzippa, Tzippora is wrong. In the
>> case of General's mother, I don't know which it is. But since he did
>> originally quote it as Tzippa Hanna, the posibility that it is Tzippa
>> cannot be dismissed just because the Zionists do not recognise such a
>> name.
>
> Interesting i will tell to the Tzipas i know !!!!!
>>
>> We had a neighbour named Bluma. The Zionists brainwashed her into
>> insisting that her name was Shoshanna.

> So the woman wanted to have a Hebrew name and not a name with a
> diaspora hint to it, have you evidensed that the brain washed her.
> Immediately after the Shoah. many people preffered to have Hebrew
> names, that will not be painful to their ears. they tried to live
> again!!!

Was that the reason? So why did the people at the airport insist my
daughter Rayzel's name must be changed to Vered?

>> When her husband divorced her,
>> fortunately the rabbi who arranged the get did make diligent inquiry,
>> so that the get had the correct name, and the two children she had
>> with her second husband were not mamzerim.

> Somehow this story sound very odd to me . If the woman was grown up
> she would have known that her former name was Bluma!!!!!

But she may not have been aware of the importance of using the
correct name in the get.

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:04:06 PM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
>
> >> Not in the Hebrew of which ancient Jewish names are derived.
>
> > ??????????????
>
> I understand your question.

It was not a question, i just was flabbergasted by this statement.

>
> > I am too polite to even walk this pass with you....
>
> But I don't understand this phrase.

Sorry it should have been Path ..... the path of Gek`s Accusing Zionism of every thing

>
> >> Tzippa, just as they have eliminated nearly every other long vowel.
> >> In the Halachic books that deal with names and how they are written,
> >> Tzippa (tzaddik-yood-pay-aleph)
> >
> > Sorry you are mistaken, Tzipa is written with a HE at the end !!!!!
> > I am aware that some names ending with A, were spelled in Yiddish
> > with an Aleph, but it did not change their ORIGIN, it only changed
> > the spelling!!!
>
> That's what Giorgies said, the spelling was changed.

NO, he was not only saying that the Spelling has changed he INSISTED that Tzipa had nothing to do with Tzipoarh, while i claimed that the Difference in spelling does not change the root of this name.

> > http://www.yiddishpiel.co.il/index.php?page_id=10
>
> I wonder if Giorgies will appreciate this.

I gave him the information.

>
> Was that the reason? So why did the people at the airport insist my
> daughter Rayzel's name must be changed to Vered?

I do not know their reasons, Why didn't you ask them? , you came in the 1970s
Ben Gurion's wish for Hebrew names for all, has long faded away by this time
In the 1950 it was reasonable, for many reasons and not reasonable for other reasons.. Thus either you met a clerk who was too eager or suggested it to you on his own initiative, you write They , How many They ? suggested it to you ?

>
> But she may not have been aware of the importance of using the
> correct name in the get.

But they could have asked her ? did he ask her ?

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

בתאריך יום שני, 11 ביוני 2012 14:53:21 UTC+1, מאת General Schvantzkoph:

> My mother passed away in February so I need her Hebrew name for the stone.
> Her name in English was Charlotte Anne. When my father passed away ten
> years ago I asked her what her Hebrew name was and she told me what
> sounded like Zipahana to me, but I think I misheard (I'm a little deaf and
> I don't speak Hebrew). In poking around the Internet I found one reference
> to Charlotte as Tziporah so my best guess would be Tziporah Hanna. Does
> this sound possible? Are there other possibilities?
>

It's the feminine of Charles, which means "man". So in Hebrew, "Adam". Unfortunately you can't uses "Adamah", which means something different. Maybe Aisha is the closest.

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Friday, June 15, 2012 1:11:40 PM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
It's the feminine of Charles, which means "man". So in Hebrew, "Adam". Unfortunately you can't uses "Adamah", which means something different. Maybe Aisha is the closest.


> It's the feminine of Charles, which means "man". So in Hebrew, "Adam". Unfortunately you can't uses "Adamah", which means something different. Maybe Aisha is the closest.

While you are right that Charlotte [Charlene and Charlotta] are the female form of Charles, You have mistranslated them
Charles is Teutonic for Strong
The lady names are Teutonic for Little strong one.

Adam is not only Man as in male but it is also man as in Human
Isha is Woman in Hebrew ,,, and Aisha is a Muslim Female name.
Usually when one speaks of the Female for Adam one would say Chava, several Females in a general group might refereed to as Bnot Chava =the daughters of Chava

mirjam

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

mir...@actcom.co.il writes:
> On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:04:06 PM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
>>
>> >> Not in the Hebrew of which ancient Jewish names are derived.
>>
>> > ??????????????
>>
>> I understand your question.
>
> It was not a question, i just was flabbergasted by this statement.
>>
>> > I am too polite to even walk this pass with you....
>>
>> But I don't understand this phrase.
> Sorry it should have been Path ..... the path of Gek`s Accusing
> Zionism of every thing

Aha, I see.

snip

>> Was that the reason? So why did the people at the airport insist
>> my daughter Rayzel's name must be changed to Vered?
>
> I do not know their reasons, Why didn't you ask them? , you came
> in the 1970s

June 1973.

> Ben Gurion's wish for Hebrew names for all, has long faded away by
> this time
> In the 1950 it was reasonable, for many reasons and not reasonable
> for other reasons.. Thus either you met a clerk who was too eager
> or suggested it to you on his own initiative, you write They , How
> many They ? suggested it to you ?

I don't recall that exactly. Probably it was just the one who gave
me the forms. S/He said she would "fit in" better with Vered than
with Rayzel. Ha-ha.

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:03:29 AM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
Moshe are you the UNKNOWN ???? the top says Unknown the foot has your sigline ???

> > On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:04:06 PM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Not in the Hebrew of which ancient Jewish names are derived.
>

> I don't recall that exactly. Probably it was just the one who gave
> me the forms. S/He said she would "fit in" better with Vered than
> with Rayzel. Ha-ha.

As Suggestion she might have meant well !!!!
Nobody forced you to accept the suggestion..
I Must add to that that many Thousands of the Jews who came to America , found it reasonable to translate their names into some thing more English, and never complained about it, but when somebody here suggests you take a Hebrew name as a sign of coming home, som e people find it a cause to complain about it.
mirjam

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

mir...@actcom.co.il writes:
> On Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:03:29 AM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:

> Moshe are you the UNKNOWN ????

Yes. I was going to ask you why your computer doesn't know my name.

> the top says Unknown the foot has your sigline ???

Check your mailer.

>> > On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:04:06 PM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Not in the Hebrew of which ancient Jewish names are derived.
>>
>> I don't recall that exactly. Probably it was just the one who gave
>> me the forms. S/He said she would "fit in" better with Vered than
>> with Rayzel. Ha-ha.
> As Suggestion she might have meant well !!!!

I'm sure she did.

> Nobody forced you to accept the suggestion..

IIRC she -did_ write that name but I later changed it back.

> I Must add to that that many Thousands of the Jews who came to
> America , found it reasonable to translate their names into some
> thing more English, and never complained about it, but when
> somebody here suggests you take a Hebrew name as a sign of coming

> home, some people find it a cause to complain about it.


There's a difference. Had her name been Rose, then perhaps I could
hear what your saying. But "Rayzel" _is_ a perfectly good _Jewish_
name, albeit in Yiddish. But Yiddish is _also_ a language of the
Jewish People. So there should have been no need to change it.

[mm]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:52:14 +0000 (UTC), mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

>On Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:03:29 AM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
>Moshe are you the UNKNOWN ???? the top says Unknown the foot has your sigline ???

I'll bet you're reading with Google. Sure enough, you are.

People who read with google and reply to me show my name as Googie,
which is a name I used only when I signed up for google-groups. I
never actually post via google, yet Google insists on showing my name
as Goorgie, and not as mm or mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>, which is what I
post with and what shows when people not using google reply to me.

So it must mean that Moshe has never registered at groups.google, so
he is unknown to them. Yet this must be new, because you're replied
to Moshe before, and other people using Google have, and yet I never
saw "unknown" until 2 or 3 days ago. I have to go now or I'ld look
up what google called Moshe a week ago, and me more than two or four
months ago.

I think they should use the name every ISP uses and stop digging
through their records to find out the name I registered with them. I
don't use the same name in more than one place, and they've mixed up
one place with another.

>> > On Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:04:06 PM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Not in the Hebrew of which ancient Jewish names are derived.
>>
>> I don't recall that exactly. Probably it was just the one who gave
>> me the forms. S/He said she would "fit in" better with Vered than
>> with Rayzel. Ha-ha.
>As Suggestion she might have meant well !!!!
>Nobody forced you to accept the suggestion..
>I Must add to that that many Thousands of the Jews who came to America , found it reasonable to translate their names into some thing more English, and never complained about it, but when somebody here suggests you take a Hebrew name as a sign of coming home, som e people find it a cause to complain about it.
>mirjam

--

Meir

[malcolm...@btinternet.com]

בתאריך יום שבת, 16 ביוני 2012 21:34:14 UTC+1, מאת (לא ידוע):

> > While you are right that Charlotte [Charlene and Charlotta] are the female form of Charles, You have mistranslated them
> Charles is Teutonic for Strong
> The lady names are Teutonic for Little strong one.
>

The current English word is "churl".But most people don't make the connection with "Charles", otherwise the name wouldn't be very popular.

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> writes:
> mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
>>On Sunday, June 17, 2012 11:03:29 AM UTC+3, (unknown) wrote:
>
>> Moshe are you the UNKNOWN ???? the top says Unknown the foot has
>> your sigline ???

As I said yesterday, that indeed was my post mirjam responded to.

> I'll bet you're reading with Google. Sure enough, you are.
>
> People who read with google and reply to me show my name as Googie,
> which is a name I used only when I signed up for google-groups. I
> never actually post via google, yet Google insists on showing my name
> as Goorgie, and not as mm or mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>, which is what I
> post with and what shows when people not using google reply to me.
>
> So it must mean that Moshe has never registered at groups.google,
> so he is unknown to them.

AAMOF IIRC I did register at groups.google but don't use it.

> Yet this must be new, because you're replied to Moshe before, and
> other people using Google have, and yet I never saw "unknown"
> until 2 or 3 days ago.

I had the same question.

[General Schvantzkoph]

I finally got a resolution on my mother's Hebrew name with the help of an
Orthodox cousin and her Rabbi. I knew that my parents Ketubah had been
lost. However in the middle of the night I remembered that I had a box of
things from my mother's first marriage (she was widowed during WWII, her
first husband was shot down over the Aleutians). I looked through it and
found an envelope with the Ketubah from that marriage. It was a basic
printed form which the Rabbi had filled out by hand. The English side
wasn't filled in at all and the Rabbi's handwriting on the Hebrew side
wasn't very legible. I scanned it and put it into a PDF and sent it to a
Hebrew speaking cousin. She couldn't read it so she showed it to some
colleagues in office. They determined that it wasn't in Hebrew, it was in
Yiddish and badly spelled Yiddish at that. None of her colleagues are
Yiddish speakers, however her Rabbi is fluent. He was able to decipher it
by looking at the way the Rabbi in 1940 had misspelled the town's name.
Using that has his Rosetta stone he determined her name which is a very
close match to my recollection. It was

Tzipa Henya

Tzadee-Yud-Pay-Aleph
Hay-Ayin- Nun-Yud-Aleph


I found it interesting that a Ketubah would be written in Yiddish instead
of Hebrew, that would never happen today. My theory was that before the
founding of Israel Yiddish and Hebrew were pretty much interchangeable,
one was modern Jewish and the other was ancient Jewish but they were both
Jewish. There is one remaining cousin from my mother's generation, he's
five years younger than my mother so he's only 89, and he said that was
basically right, nobody thought about it.

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Jun 30, 6:19 pm, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

A kesuba is not written in Hebrew. It is written in Aramaic. I
strongly doubt that your mother's kesuba was written in Yiddish. The
Hebrew speakers coudn't decipher it because it was Aramaic. I am happy
to note that Tzippa was written with an aleph at the end, which is
what I have maintained all along.

GEK
whishing good week and good chodesh to all

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

I am glad you found the correct spelling .
mirjam

[mos...@mm.huji.ac.il]

General Schvantzkoph <schvan...@yahoo.com> writes:
> I finally got a resolution on my mother's Hebrew name with the help of an
> Orthodox cousin and her Rabbi. I knew that my parents Ketubah had been
> lost. However in the middle of the night I remembered that I had a box of
> things from my mother's first marriage (she was widowed during WWII, her
> first husband was shot down over the Aleutians). I looked through it and
> found an envelope with the Ketubah from that marriage. It was a basic
> printed form which the Rabbi had filled out by hand. The English side
> wasn't filled in at all and the Rabbi's handwriting on the Hebrew side
> wasn't very legible. I scanned it and put it into a PDF and sent it to a
> Hebrew speaking cousin. She couldn't read it so she showed it to some
> colleagues in office. They determined that it wasn't in Hebrew, it was in
> Yiddish and badly spelled Yiddish at that. None of her colleagues are
> Yiddish speakers, however her Rabbi is fluent. He was able to decipher it
> by looking at the way the Rabbi in 1940 had misspelled the town's name.
> Using that has his Rosetta stone he determined her name which is a very
> close match to my recollection.

I love these "detective" stories. I was at a shiva call to collegue
from work last week. He was sitting for his mother who died at age
95.5. He showed me a diary, that her father, his grandfather had
kept. The grandfather was a Rav in a city in Germany, and he recorded
all the activity of the city in which he participated. One person
found the record of their marriage! It was written in German with
Hebrew quotations thrown in.

It was
>
> Tzipa Henya
>
> Tzadee-Yud-Pay-Aleph
> Hay-Ayin- Nun-Yud-Aleph
>
> I found it interesting that a Ketubah would be written in Yiddish
> instead of Hebrew,

I really doubt that the Ketubah was written in Yiddish. More likely
it was written in Aramaic. But there is room in the Ketubah form,
for the names of the bride and groom, for the date, and for the city.

> that would never happen today.

If I am right, then if the name was a Yiddish one, as your mother's
than even today, that's what would be written.

> My theory was that before the founding of Israel Yiddish and
> Hebrew were pretty much interchangeable, one was modern Jewish
> and the other was ancient Jewish but they were both Jewish.

Your theory may explain why some (many?) nowadays use "Hebrew"
versions of "Yiddish" names.

> There is one remaining cousin from my mother's generation, he's
> five years younger than my mother so he's only 89,

Only...

> and he said that was basically right, nobody thought about it.

Glad you got the answer.

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

> A kesuba

A Ketuba caf-taw-waw-beth-he is/was indeed written in Arameic,But nowadays you cab find them with many if not most words in Hebrew.
I am sure his mother did not get a kesuba ,,, which translates as a lie.
In Yiddish a Ketuba was called either Ketuba Heireit-Efmach [He -yod-yod=resh-alef-tet-alef-pe-men-alef- kaf.

> strongly doubt that your mother's kesuba was written in Yiddish. The
> Hebrew speakers coudn't decipher it because it was Aramaic.

Most Hebrew Readers can easily differentiate between Yiddish and Arameic.

> I am happy
> to note that Tzippa was written with an aleph at the end, which is
> what I have maintained all along.

Good that you are Happy, about the Alef, which does not change anything, Alef and He at the ends of words were /are interchangeable in Yiddish as well as in words that come from the Arameic

Zafra Tawa Tzadik-peh-resh-alef Tet - Beth-Alef still used as are in Hebrew ,,,,,Kufsa =box can end with either Alef or He ,,,
mirjam
>

[Giorgies E Kepipesiom]

On Jul 1, 7:39 am, mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
> > A kesuba
>
> A Ketuba caf-taw-waw-beth-he is/was indeed written in Arameic,But nowadays you cab find them with many if not most words in Hebrew.

caf-taw-waw-beth-heh? There is no "waw" in this word when correctly
spelled, though it is sometimes put in so people will know that there
is a shooruk after the sov. If there were really a waw there, it would
be kesuva, not kesuba, as the dogaysh chozok is requred only after a
tenua ketana.

> I am sure his mother did not get a kesuba ,,, which translates as a lie.

Kesuba translates as a lie? In what language?

> In Yiddish a Ketuba was called either Ketuba Heireit-Efmach [He -yod-yod=resh-alef-tet-alef-pe-men-alef- kaf.

No Yiddish speaker I have ever met or heard of has ever called it
Heireit-Efmach, whatever that is.

>
> > strongly doubt that your mother's kesuba was written in Yiddish. The
> > Hebrew speakers coudn't decipher it because it was Aramaic.
>
> Most Hebrew Readers can easily differentiate between Yiddish and Arameic.

Apparently, these couldn't

> Good that you are Happy, about the Alef, which does not change anything, Alef and He at the ends of words were /are interchangeable  in Yiddish as well as in words that come from the Arameic

Not in Halacha. In Halachicly correct documents aleph ande hay are NOT
freely interchangeable.

>
> Zafra Tawa   Tzadik-peh-resh-alef    Tet - Beth-Alef    still used as are in Hebrew

What has tzafra tovo to do with the name Tzippa? And Tzafra is spelt
with a fay, not a pay. I know the Zionists long ago dropped the sov
from the Hebrew alphabet. When was the fay exterminated?

Kufsa =box can end with either Alef or He

Really? I suppose that must be the funny people who say "waw" and
"beth".

GEK
really not interested in pursuing this further. Unless Moshiach comes
quickly, we will all be speaking Arabic. I can't wait to see you
wearing a Burka.

[mm]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 11:39:53 +0000 (UTC), mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:

>
>> A kesuba
>
>A Ketuba caf-taw-waw-beth-he is/was indeed written in Arameic,But nowadays you cab find them with many if not most words in Hebrew.
>I am sure his mother did not get a kesuba ,,, which translates as a lie.

I didn't konw the word, had to look it up., but the shoresh for a
lie, a falsehood, is kzv, caf-zayin-vet

........

>> strongly doubt that your mother's kesuba was written in Yiddish. The
>> Hebrew speakers coudn't decipher it because it was Aramaic.
>
>Most Hebrew Readers can easily differentiate between Yiddish and Arameic.

Maybe it was not the form they were looking at but the names filled
into the form and they knew they knew they were Yiddish but weren't
sure how to pronounce them.


--

Meir

[mir...@actcom.co.il]

On Sunday, July 1, 2012 5:21:08 PM UTC+3, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>
> caf-taw-waw-beth-heh? There is no "waw" in this word when correctly
> spelled,

The Late Avraham Even-Shoshan wrote in his dictionary HaMilon HaChadash cahpter 3 letters Yod- Mem on page 1114 that Ketubah can be written both with and without a Waw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Even-Shoshan
since he also compiled
A New Concordance of the Bible: Thesaurus of the Language of the Bible, Hebrew and Aramaic, Roots, Words, Proper Names Phrases and Synonyms (1984)

I will take his words over your`s' until you show me that you have done any research on this matter.

>though it is sometimes put in so people will know that there
> is a shooruk after the sov. If there were really a waw there, it would
> be kesuva, not kesuba, as the dogaysh chozok is requred only after a
> tenua ketana.
>
> > I am sure his mother did not get a kesuba ,,, which translates as a lie.
>
> Kesuba translates as a lie? In what language?

Kasav or kazav is a lie in Hebrew

>
> > In Yiddish a Ketuba was called either Ketuba Heireit-Efmach [He -yod-yod=resh-alef-tet-alef-pe-men-alef- kaf.
>
> No Yiddish speaker I have ever met or heard of has ever called it
> Heireit-Efmach, whatever that is.

I happened to remember this term, but i also checked in a dictionary [ a strange habit i have!] may i remind you that Yiddish has several dialects,,,In Amsterdam it was 100% like the Antwerpen one etc,,,,

> > Most Hebrew Readers can easily differentiate between Yiddish and Arameic.
>
> Apparently, these couldn't

Please note that i wrote Most ,,,,,,,,

>
> > Good that you are Happy, about the Alef, which does not change anything, Alef and He at the ends of words were /are interchangeable  in Yiddish as well as in words that come from the Arameic
>
> Not in Halacha. In Halachicly correct documents aleph ande hay are NOT
> freely interchangeable.

Well read people in Hebrew/Arameic texts know that Alef/he were interchangeable during the centuries. Hay was another matter of Agricultural laws.

> >
> > Zafra Tawa   Tzadik-peh-resh-alef    Tet - Beth-Alef    still used as are in Hebrew
>
> What has tzafra tovo to do with the name Tzippa? And Tzafra is spelt
> with a fay, not a pay. I know the Zionists long ago dropped the sov
> from the Hebrew alphabet. When was the fay exterminated?

What a pity that you react in this manner.

>
> Kufsa =box can end with either Alef or He
>
> Really? I suppose that must be the funny people who say "waw" and
> "beth".

Are you as well read about those matters as Even-Shoshan ?

>

> GEK
> really not interested in pursuing this further. Unless Moshiach comes
> quickly, we will all be speaking Arabic. I can't wait to see you
> wearing a Burka.

Thank you for this funny reaction.....
mirjam

[mm]

On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 05:44:42 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 11:39:53 +0000 (UTC), mir...@actcom.co.il wrote:
>
>>
>>> A kesuba
>>
>>A Ketuba caf-taw-waw-beth-he is/was indeed written in Arameic,But nowadays you cab find them with many if not most words in Hebrew.
>>I am sure his mother did not get a kesuba ,,, which translates as a lie.
>
> I didn't konw the word, had to look it up., but the shoresh for a
>lie, a falsehood, is kzv, caf-zayin-vet

I should have said "one" shoresh, and not implied it was the only one.

>........
>
>>> strongly doubt that your mother's kesuba was written in Yiddish. The
>>> Hebrew speakers coudn't decipher it because it was Aramaic.
>>
>>Most Hebrew Readers can easily differentiate between Yiddish and Arameic.
>
>Maybe it was not the form they were looking at but the names filled
>into the form and they knew they knew they were Yiddish but weren't
>sure how to pronounce them.

On the statement about spelling and Halacha, perhaps Giorgies is
thinking about a get (a bill of divorce) where spelling, at least of
the names and other idetifiers and for all I recall, maybe the whole
thing, is very important. WRT a kesuba, aiui, one is likely to get
married three times at his wedding and iirc even a kesuba with a
misspelling is likely to be valid. Even mixed dancing might get one
married <griin>
--

Meir