Nefesh elokis and converts
Matthew Cline
wrote on "Nefesh elokis". The rabbi writes that nothing a gentile can
do can "transform himself to become limitless". The person I'm arguing
with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
I'm arguing that the "nothing a gentile can do" contains an implicit
"except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
rabbi says can be seen at http://www.jewishinfo.org/philosophy.html,
and the text posted to USENT follows.
Any help would be apreciated.
==============================
"The Nefesh elokis or G-dly soul is the true Jewish essence, the
Pintele Yid, and it is directly connected to G-d, a part of G-d. Since
it is G-dly, it is not limited, it transcends the ordinary material
world ... Chassidus explains that the Nefesh elokis is actually part
and parcel of G-d. It manifests itself by the very fact that a Jew
cannot and will not be able to forsake his or her Jewishness.
Regardless of circumstances, every Jew posses a G-dly soul, even
though temporarily the Jew might drift into strange non G-dly pastures
.... Based on this ideology, we will be able to understand the
spirituality of a gentile. A gentile is not a Jew. The very fact that
a gentile is born to a non Jewish mother establishes this fact
.... Therefore even a very righteous gentile doesn't have a Jewish soul
known as a G-dly soul, a Neshomo ... However a gentile doesn't have a
Nefesh elokis and doesn't have the same responsibilities as a Jew
does. Therefore a gentile isn't able to connect to that level of G-d
which we call essence ... we can explain the difference between the
soul of a Jew and the soul of a gentile. A gentile is limited to his
or her mission. That's the way G-d created him or her. Therefore the
level of spirituality for a gentile is limited to perfecting himself
and the world around him. *Yet a gentile cannot transform himself to
become limitless,* he is a creation of G-d just as all other
creations. Therefore there is a defined application to his ability.
This is called in Chassidus, Givul, limited. However a Jew is not a
creation of G-d, rather a "part" of G-d, therefore a Jew is able to go
beyond the worldly defined experiences. The reason is, a Jew is not a
creation of G-d rather a Jew is G-dliness as he expresses himself in
creation through a Neshomo. This concept is called in Chassidus,
elokus shenase nivre. "
Russell Steinthal
Matthew Cline <ma...@nightrealms.com> wrote:
>I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
>wrote on "Nefesh elokis". The rabbi writes that nothing a gentile can
>do can "transform himself to become limitless". The person I'm arguing
>with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
>who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
>people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
>be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
>I'm arguing that the "nothing a gentile can do" contains an implicit
>"except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
>everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
>rabbi says can be seen at http://www.jewishinfo.org/philosophy.html,
>and the text posted to USENT follows.
I don't citations handy, but i would definitely agree with your
reading that "except by converting" should be read into the sentence.
I think that's where the concept that converts are as if babies born
anew comes in: at the moment of conversion, they cease being what they
were, and are born anew as Jews. Taken spiritually, that would seem
to include what you (and the rabbi you quote) were referring to.
-Russell
--
Russell Steinthal Columbia Law School, Class of 2002
<rm...@columbia.edu> Columbia College, Class of 1999
<ste...@nj.org> UNIX System Administrator, nj.org
Jay Lapidus
>I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
>wrote on "Nefesh elokis". The rabbi writes that nothing a gentile can
>do can "transform himself to become limitless". The person I'm arguing
>with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
>who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
>people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
>be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
>I'm arguing that the "nothing a gentile can do" contains an implicit
>"except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
>everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
>rabbi says can be seen at http://www.jewishinfo.org/philosophy.html,
>and the text posted to USENT follows.
Why not ask Rabbi Dalfin? He gives his phone number and an email link
on his site.
Jay Lapidus http://jlapidus.tripod.com
"Nonsense is nonsense, but the history of nonsense is
a very important science." -- Prof. Saul Lieberman
Matthew Cline
<jlap...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Why not ask Rabbi Dalfin? He gives his phone number and an email
> link on his site.
I tried emailing, but I just got a bounce. Maybe I'll have
to phone him...
meirm...@erols.com
Cline" <ma...@nightrealms.com> posted:
>I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
>wrote on "Nefesh elokis". The rabbi writes that nothing a gentile can
>do can "transform himself to become limitless".
Are you sure he is not excluding conversion to Judaism. Since then he
wouldn't be a gentile anymore. Good or bad a lot of people talk like
this. All the words that follow come from your nudnik person.
> The person I'm arguing
>with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
>who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
>people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
>be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
I don't know anyone who feels that way. I was at a barmitzvah last
week, at my rather right wing (am I right Eliot?) shul, certainly the
rabbi is right wing...I think. And among others, the barmitzvah's
mother spoke at the party on Tuesday, and again at the lunch this past
Shabbos. She's a ger and she's highly respected in every way. One of
our Iranian members when I visited him at work couldn't stop talking
about how wonderful she is, called her a tsedeikas (f. of tsaddik). I
think everyone who knows her thinks that or close to it.
>I'm arguing that the "nothing a gentile can do" contains an implicit
>"except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
>everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
That sounds familiar... GMTA
>rabbi says can be seen at http://www.jewishinfo.org/philosophy.html,
>and the text posted to USENT follows.
>
>Any help would be apreciated.
>
>==============================
>
>"The Nefesh elokis or G-dly soul is the true Jewish essence, the
A lot of people think that converts are born with Jewish souls, and I
guess that is only certain when they complete their conversion.
>Pintele Yid, and it is directly connected to G-d, a part of G-d.
mei...@QQQerols.com
e-mail by removing QQQ
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
> wrote on "Nefesh elokis". The rabbi writes that nothing a gentile can
> with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
> who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
> people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
> be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
> "except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
> everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
> and the text posted to USENT follows.
>
> Any help would be apreciated.
Thanks for an interesting question and quote. If it's any help, I
agree with you totally. Once a gentile converts he is _not_ a gentile
any more. He has the same "neshomo" as a born Jew.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
> ==============================
>
> "The Nefesh elokis or G-dly soul is the true Jewish essence, the
Micha Berger
: I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
: wrote on "Nefesh elokis"....
Despite this Rabbis appeal to "Chassidus" he is actually speaking Chabad
Chassidus (Lubavitch) in particular.
I'll let an adherent of that philosophy deal with your question.
-mi
Micha Berger
: I don't citations handy, but i would definitely agree with your
: reading that "except by converting"...
I'm not sure conversion is a necessary precondition. Chassidei umos
ha'olam -- the pious amongst the nations of the world, also are rooted in
nefesh E-lokis. See the last paragraph of the first chapter of Tanya at
<http://www.chabad.org/gopher/daily/tanya/chapters/book-1/01-10/01.htm>.
Again, I defer to an adherant of Chabad philosophy for more details and
corrections.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 19-Jul-00: Revi'i, Pinchas
mi...@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Yuma 39a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. Yeshaiah 14
Yisroel Markov
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On 25 Jul 2000 03:24:55 GMT, Russell Steinthal <rm...@columbia.edu> wrote:
> : I don't citations handy, but i would definitely agree with your
> : reading that "except by converting"...
>
> I'm not sure conversion is a necessary precondition. Chassidei umos
> ha'olam -- the pious amongst the nations of the world, also are rooted in
> nefesh E-lokis. See the last paragraph of the first chapter of Tanya at
> <http://www.chabad.org/gopher/daily/tanya/chapters/book-1/01-10/01.htm>.
>
> Again, I defer to an adherant of Chabad philosophy for more details and
> corrections.
The source says that "among the nations of the world there are also to be
found those whose souls are derived from kelipat nogah". Kelipat nogah is not
the source of the nefesh elokit (NE); it is a kelipah that contains both good
and evil, and is the source of the Jews' animal soul.
Now according to all I've heard on the subject, a Gentile acquires a NE(or it
is manifested if already present, according to those who believe that
converts are really "lost Jews") upon conversion. I do not remember anything
regarding their animal soul, but presumably it also switches to kelipat
nogah, since we say that a convert is a full Jew (even if he is allowed to
marry a mamzer).
(I have some serious issues with this philosophy. Rabbi Dalfin, from whose
web site Matthew took the quote, defines "soul" as a "drive". At least in the
functional sense, this is IMHO a correct definition, and therein lies the
problem. It is said that the NE is the drive towards the Divine, the yearning
to be one with God. If one is to insist that this quality, along with the NE,
is unique to Jews, then one has to say that all displays of spirituality by
Gentiles are somehow fake (or at least inferior), and that does not
correspond to observed reality.)
Yisroel Markov Boston, MA Member DNRC
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Russell Steinthal
Yisroel Markov <y...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>(I have some serious issues with this philosophy. Rabbi Dalfin, from whose
>web site Matthew took the quote, defines "soul" as a "drive". At least in the
>functional sense, this is IMHO a correct definition, and therein lies the
>problem. It is said that the NE is the drive towards the Divine, the yearning
>to be one with God. If one is to insist that this quality, along with the NE,
>is unique to Jews, then one has to say that all displays of spirituality by
>Gentiles are somehow fake (or at least inferior), and that does not
>correspond to observed reality.)
Not to mention the fact that such a theory would be seemingly unable
to explain the *desire* to convert to Judaism: if a non-Jew cannot
have a truly Jewish drive to be one with God, how could he or she ever
reach the state of truly wanting to convert? (Given that it was only
at the time of conversion that the Jewish "soul" would emerge, at
least according to that theory.)
Moshe Shulman
>Now according to all I've heard on the subject, a Gentile acquires a NE(or it
>is manifested if already present, according to those who believe that
>converts are really "lost Jews") upon conversion. I do not remember anything
>regarding their animal soul, but presumably it also switches to kelipat
>nogah, since we say that a convert is a full Jew (even if he is allowed to
>marry a mamzer).
That would be correct.
moshe shulman mshu...@NOSPAMix.netcom.com 718-436-7705
CHASSIDUS.NET - Yoshav Rosh http://www.chassidus.net
Chassidus shiur: chassidus...@chassidus.net
Chassidus discussion list: chassidus...@egroups.com
Outreach Judaism http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
ICQ# 52009254
Moshe Shulman
>I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
>do can "transform himself to become limitless". The person I'm arguing
>with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
>who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
>people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
>be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
>I'm arguing that the "nothing a gentile can do" contains an implicit
>"except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
>everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
>rabbi says can be seen at http://www.jewishinfo.org/philosophy.html,
>and the text posted to USENT follows.
A gentile who converts gets a nefesh elokis. (This is a soul from the side of
Kedushah) A non-Jew does not have such a soul.
Moshe Shulman
>In article <8lkp9u$3ea$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>Yisroel Markov <y...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>(I have some serious issues with this philosophy. Rabbi Dalfin, from whose
>>web site Matthew took the quote, defines "soul" as a "drive". At least in the
>>functional sense, this is IMHO a correct definition, and therein lies the
>>problem. It is said that the NE is the drive towards the Divine, the yearning
>>to be one with God. If one is to insist that this quality, along with the NE,
>>is unique to Jews, then one has to say that all displays of spirituality by
>>Gentiles are somehow fake (or at least inferior), and that does not
>>correspond to observed reality.)
>Not to mention the fact that such a theory would be seemingly unable
>to explain the *desire* to convert to Judaism: if a non-Jew cannot
>have a truly Jewish drive to be one with God, how could he or she ever
>reach the state of truly wanting to convert? (Given that it was only
>at the time of conversion that the Jewish "soul" would emerge, at
>least according to that theory.)
This question assumes that souls are all of one level, and type.
Ray Goodman
conversion and at that point aquires a g-dly soul
"Matthew Cline" <ma...@nightrealms.com> wrote in message
news:y67f5.2962$G7.1...@news-west.usenetserver.com...
> I'm having an argument in another newsgroup over something a Rabbi
> wrote on "Nefesh elokis". The rabbi writes that nothing a gentile can
> do can "transform himself to become limitless". The person I'm arguing
> with interprets this to mean that the Rabbi is claiming that a gentile
> who converts to Judaism still won't have a "Nefesh elokis", that only
> people who are born Jewish did; in other words, while a convert might
> be accepted into the Jewish community, he's still not a "real Jew".
> I'm arguing that the "nothing a gentile can do" contains an implicit
> "except by converting to Judaism", which seems the likely thing from
> everything else I've read about Judaism. The full text of what the
> rabbi says can be seen at http://www.jewishinfo.org/philosophy.html,
> and the text posted to USENT follows.
>
>
Micha Berger
: This question assumes that souls are all of one level, and type.
In R' SR Hirsch's thought, the latter is apparantly true. He seems to avoid
statements that give different people different kinds of souls.
Whereas the ba'al haTanya grants the Jew inherently a nefesh E-lokis, RSRH
makes the grasping for the eight -- the supernatural and divine -- the unique
*mission* of the Jew. Similar notions, but one makes it a metaphysical
statement of what Jews are, and the other makes it an axiological statement
of what a Jew is supposed to strive to be.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 27-Jul-00: Chamishi, Matos-Masei
mi...@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Yuma 43a