the "missing years" in Jewish history before Alexander the Great
Craig Feinstein
between the years in the Gentile calendar and the Jewish calendar as
to when the 1st Temple was destroyed. Our Jewish history says that it
occurred much later than 586 BCE.
I am curious as to how the rest of the world got it wrong, as I cannot
believe that the Jews, who have accounted for every year in their
history, just decided not to count 150+ years of their history in
Persia and then re-emerge, having complete knowledge again. It just
doesn't make any sense.
I have heard from Vendyl Jones and Jim Long (archeologists) that the
reason for this is that the Church (who kept track of much of history)
wanted to make the story of Jesus more believable and make it fit into
the predictions in Daniel. They said that the list of kings in Persia
was misinterpretted, as some of the kings had different names.
And I have heard that Rabbi Shimon Schwab proposed that maybe the
discrepency was rigged by the rabbis in order to prevent speculation
on the time of the coming of the Moshiach. I can't believe this, as
this is just not how Jews work; we just don't erase our history,
and it breaks the ongoing chain in transmission from Sinai.
Does anyone have any information on this, as it is certainly an
interesting subject?
Thank you,
Craig
p_al...@hotmail.com
Tim Meushaw
I knew I had seen this somewhere, but it took a bit of searching. This
isn't the source I was thinking of, but hopefully it helps to answer
your questions:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse.asp?l=h&offset=16
DISCREPANCY IN THE DATES?
6/15/2001
I was browsing your website's Western Wall Tunnel Tour, when I was
surprised by the dates of various events in Jewish history. According to
your timeline, King Solomon built the First Temple in 825 BCE. Was it
not completed in 957 BCE? The Babylonian exile is stated as beginning in
422 BCE. But didn't Nebuchadnezzar II destroy the First Temple in 586
BCE, the same year the Jews were deported to Babylonia?
Could you please explain this discrepancy in the dates? Thank you.
THE AISH RABBI REPLIES:
The source of this discrepancy is in the accounting of the Persian
period. Greek historians (such as Herodotus, Ctesias, Xenophon, and
others who lived after the events and collected oral histories) speak of
10 Persian kings who ruled for 208 years. By contrast, the Biblical
Jewish account speaks of four kings ruling 52 years.
The confusion stems from the fact that one person may have several
names. For example Bush, President, and White House Occupant may all be
names for the same person. So too, Arta-Khsharta is a title used by all
Persian kings and means literally "Fit for the Kingdom" -- yet
Artaxerxes is listed separately as three kings in the Greek lists.
Another point of contention focuses on the war between Darius and
Alexander. These are commonly thought to be an earlier Darius and
Alexander, due to the "interposing" Artaxerxes kings. That makes
Alexander the Great into Alexander II, and Darius who permitted the
rebuilding of the Second Temple into a later Darius. Yet many Jewish
scholars feel that both Alexanders are the same person; so too with
Darius.
For more details, see Brad Aaronson's article "Fixing the History
Books," published in the Summer 1991 edition of Jewish Action magazine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't find the article "Fixing the History Books" online,
unfortunately, but it sounds like an interesting article. Perhaps
someone can find it on interlibrary loan from a university or something.
HTH,
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Lisa
> I was talking with someone in another group about the discrepency
> between the years in the Gentile calendar and the Jewish calendar as
> to when the 1st Temple was destroyed. Our Jewish history says that it
> occurred much later than 586 BCE.
>
> I am curious as to how the rest of the world got it wrong, as I cannot
> believe that the Jews, who have accounted for every year in their
> history, just decided not to count 150+ years of their history in
> Persia and then re-emerge, having complete knowledge again. It just
> doesn't make any sense.
Local Persian records also show the Persian period as having been much
shorter than the conventional history would claim.
So basically, you have local histories (Persian and Jewish) saying it
was short, and non-local history (Greek) saying it was long. But
Western Civilization is based on Greek culture and literature, and
that's what conventional history goes by.
> I have heard from Vendyl Jones and Jim Long (archeologists) that the
> reason for this is that the Church (who kept track of much of history)
> wanted to make the story of Jesus more believable and make it fit into
> the predictions in Daniel. They said that the list of kings in Persia
> was misinterpretted, as some of the kings had different names.
With all due respect to Jones and Long, the Church had nothing to do
with it.
> And I have heard that Rabbi Shimon Schwab proposed that maybe the
> discrepency was rigged by the rabbis in order to prevent speculation
> on the time of the coming of the Moshiach. I can't believe this, as
> this is just not how Jews work; we just don't erase our history,
> and it breaks the ongoing chain in transmission from Sinai.
Right on both counts. And R' Schwab retracted the suggestion,
pointing out that it had been nothing but speculation to begin with.
Speculation about what *if* we were really stuck with the Greek-based
chronology. Which we are not.
> Does anyone have any information on this, as it is certainly an
> interesting subject?
Check out http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html, which
is a review article about a method of reconciling the Greek and Jewish
accounts. There's a book by Mitchell First called Jewish History in
Conflict, which discusses the issue in depth (it was, I believe, his
Masters thesis). You can find the book at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1568219709/qid=1071592650/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-8193882-8741422?v=glance&s=books.
One of the letters in response to the article I gave you the link for
was written by First.
Hope that helps,
Lisa
Micha Berger
: And I have heard that Rabbi Shimon Schwab proposed that maybe the
: discrepency was rigged by the rabbis in order to prevent speculation
: on the time of the coming of the Moshiach. I can't believe this, as
: this is just not how Jews work; we just don't erase our history,
: and it breaks the ongoing chain in transmission from Sinai.
See R' Schwab's take on the missing 168 years at (excerpts)
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol11/v11n018.shtml#03>.
He later clarifies that is was speculation, and not something he considers
"his position" ojn the subect.
I'm sure Lisa will chime in with her opinion, that the error wasn't on
our side. Her opinion is significantly more informed than mine.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Until he extends the circle of his compassion
mi...@aishdas.org to all living things,
http://www.aishdas.org man will not himself find peace.
Fax: (413) 403-9905 - Albert Schweitzer
Lisa
>
> For more details, see Brad Aaronson's article "Fixing the History
> Books," published in the Summer 1991 edition of Jewish Action magazine.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can't find the article "Fixing the History Books" online,
> unfortunately, but it sounds like an interesting article. Perhaps
> someone can find it on interlibrary loan from a university or something.
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html
Lisa
Craig Feinstein
casts doubt on the Greek version of the history. However, a person in
another chatroom that I was talking to presented evidence from the
Persian perspective that seems to contradict the Jewish version.
http://www.avesta.org/op/op.htm#a2sa
At least one of the documents gives a lineage of the kings. Perhaps,
you could explain this? Thanks again.
Craig
li...@starways.net (Lisa) wrote in message news:<cc62d1fa.03121...@posting.google.com>...
Raphael
Lisa <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
news:cc62d1fa.03121...@posting.google.com...
I'm confused. Whose view is this: Brad Aaronson's or Lisa Liel's? It
doesn't affect the content. It sounds like a plausible theory either way.
But "meivi davar b'sheim omro" applies. (Proper attribution.)
Raphael
Fiona
"Raphael" <rdavi...@NOSPAMcox.net> wrote
> Lisa <li...@starways.net> wrote
> > Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote
> > >
> > > For more details, see Brad Aaronson's article "Fixing the History
> > > Books," published in the Summer 1991 edition of Jewish Action
magazine.
> > >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > I can't find the article "Fixing the History Books" online,
> > > unfortunately, but it sounds like an interesting article. Perhaps
> > > someone can find it on interlibrary loan from a university or
something.
> >
> > http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html
> >
> > Lisa
>
> I'm confused. Whose view is this: Brad Aaronson's or Lisa Liel's? It
> doesn't affect the content. It sounds like a plausible theory either way.
> But "meivi davar b'sheim omro" applies. (Proper attribution.)
It says "by Brad Aaronson" at the top, and I don't see any suggestion Lisa
wrote it. Why are you confused?
Fiona
Lisa
Brad wrote the article. I agree with the substance of the article,
although work I've done since that article came out has led me to a
few slightly different conclusions, detail-wise.
Lisa
Lisa
It's reasonable to be confused. I've posted here before that a
different article, "by Brad Aaronson", which was also published in the
same magazine (Jewish Action), was actually something I ghost wrote.
That essay can be found at
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html.
Lisa
Raphael
> > I'm confused. Whose view is this: Brad Aaronson's or Lisa Liel's? It
> > doesn't affect the content. It sounds like a plausible theory either
way.
> > But "meivi davar b'sheim omro" applies. (Proper attribution.)
>
> Brad wrote the article. I agree with the substance of the article,
> although work I've done since that article came out has led me to a
> few slightly different conclusions, detail-wise.
>
> Lisa
>It's reasonable to be confused. I've posted here before that a
>different article, "by Brad Aaronson", which was also published in the
>same magazine (Jewish Action), was actually something I ghost wrote.
>That essay can be found at
So let me get this straight: Brad wrote the article on Persian/Greek
dating, but you wrote the aritcle on Exodus dating under Brad's name?
Raphael
Lisa
<blink> Do you know what it means to ghostwrite something? It means,
for example, that someone who wrote an article for Jewish Action was
asked to write another one. And agreed. Hypothetically speaking, of
course. And that more than six months later, he still hadn't managed
to figure out how to even begin. Which is understandable, given the
scope of the topic that had been requested, and the limitations on the
length of the essay.
In such a case, a person might ask someone else who is familiar with
the subject to help out.
That's called ghostwriting. Some people get paid for it. Some people
do it as a favor.
May I ask why this interests you, and what the pertinence is for SCJM?
Lisa
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd
Are you and Brad related, or did you just use a pen name for that article?
IS
Lisa
See my other post about ghostwriting. He's my cousin, incidentally.
Lisa