family question / the name Ira is Jewish?
aboutalliknow
1908. His father's name was "Ira", surname "Good". From what I
understand Ira came out west from Lancaster Pennsylvania at the turn
of the century. My grandfather has no idea about his family's ethnic
heritage, because, he says, "in those days we never asked". My
grandparents, and my parents, were never religious people, just church
on Christmas and Easter, etc, Christian if anything. Ira passed away
in the 1930s. From what I've recently come to understand, the name
Ira is a very Jewish name, and it can be assumed that anyone with this
name would be a Jew. I'd like to look into this more, as perhaps my
grandfather's surname was shortened from Goodstein or something like
that and I have some Jewish heritage. If anyone can offer comments,
it would be appreciated. Thanks.
BAC...@vms.huji.ac.il
Apart from asking on the soc.genealogy.jewish newsgroup, I'd suggest
that you check with local town records in Lancaster. There were Jews
living in small communities (e.g. Honesdale PA) so it's worth investigating.
Good luck
Josh
meirm...@erols.com
bob_c...@onebox.com (aboutalliknow) posted:
>My grandfather, who is very ill, was born in the state of Oregon in
>1908. His father's name was "Ira", surname "Good". From what I
>understand Ira came out west from Lancaster Pennsylvania at the turn
>of the century.
posted and mailed.
There is a genealogy newsgroup also you should check:
soc.genealogy.jewish? I'm not sure of the spelling of genealogy or
the name as a whole.
Also, just in the past year www.ellisisland.org opened up.
---I checked one name, and I'm going to tell you about it, but the
odds are it has no connection to you. We don't even know your ggfather
came through Ellis Island I think there were no other I.Good's but I
didn't check longer or misspelled names yet.
Everyone note: www.ellisislandarchives.org doesn't seem to exist
anymore, and .com seems unrelated!.
It only goes back to 1880 or '82 but if your great grandfather was an
immigrant, that's probably enough. Prior to this website, one had to
go to Ellis Island and there were not computer cross-references or
tricks, such as searching for misspellings automatically.
Still the webpage is very difficult to use, not intuitive at all in
crucial places imo.
This is just a guess here.** And it doesn't give religion on these
records (although often one can tell from the original first name, the
last name, and the place of origin, most of Eastern Europe.) But then
again, even if he is not Jewish you would be interested. But then
again, if he's not Jewish, there's no special reason to think he came
after 1880, through Ellis Island. But for example, I.W. Good who
lived in London and was 21 years old on 9/10/1892 sailed from
Queenstown, Cork, Munster, Ireland, to NYC. That would have made him
37 when your father was born. But when I went to look at the manifest
(double click on the little manifest to get a manifest big enough to
read. You can do this as soon as you see a little white showing, or
maybe earlier.), his name didn't appear on line 157 like it should
have, and everyone on that page of the manifest was from Norway or
Sweden. Same for the previous pane. There must be an error. If it is
important, they would probably correct it for you. (This is the only
likely one with the name Good. My grandfather came from London too,
having stayed there for a while, looking for a job, before he tried
the US instead.)
Josh is right, there is still at least one synagogue in Lancaster and
maybe more.
**After all I think there are English gentiles named Good, and might
they be named Ira? And could there be German gentiles who came
earlier and changed their names from Gutxxxx to Good? (you could find
a German ng or a German fraternal group in Milwaukee or St. Louis.)
>My grandfather has no idea about his family's ethnic
>heritage, because, he says, "in those days we never asked". My
>grandparents, and my parents, were never religious people, just church
>on Christmas and Easter, etc, Christian if anything. Ira passed away
>in the 1930s. From what I've recently come to understand, the name
>Ira is a very Jewish name, and it can be assumed that anyone with this
>name would be a Jew.
Ira is a particulary Jewish name, my English dictionary says Hebrew
for watchful. (Irving, Norman, and Myron are Jewish names in the US
even though they have no relation to Jews or Judaism, so it's a funny
thing.) If Ira was no more than 20, say, when he lived there, his
parents might be in their records. If they have an I.W. Good, that
would be interesting too, but it's a big country and they probably
won't.
On the Ellis Island site, there is also an Ivil Good who came in 1905
from Sinclairs Town, Scotland.
There are 157 close matches, and no alternate spellings of Good.
I didn't exclude females, for fear of a coding error on their part,
and I am now excluding those with female names and people who came
after 1908:
Ike Goodkind, line 9
Isidor Goodman, line 18, also from London, came in 1907 at age 28
Ignacz Goodman, line 20, 1907, age 48
I.A.Goodwillie, line 30, 1905, age 37
Isaac Goodfriend, line, line 45, 1904
I.H.Goodman, line 52, 1903, age 42
6 more Isaac Goodmans from 1892 to 1905
and more, I quit.
some of the names in general have no residence listed, and some have
cities in the US, so maybe they are listing even Americans coming back
from trips abroad. But none of the ones I gave you were like that.
You should definitely try lancaster. I'm pretty sure one shul is on
the web. They have an annual outing at Hershey Park during October
that draws even from Baltimore.
> I'd like to look into this more, as perhaps my
>grandfather's surname was shortened from Goodstein or something like
>that and I have some Jewish heritage. If anyone can offer comments,
>it would be appreciated. Thanks.
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
remove the QQQ or not you are posting the same letter.
meirm...@erols.com
meirm...@erols.com posted:
P&M
> And it doesn't give religion on these
>records (although often one can tell from the original first name, the
>last name, and the place of origin, most of Eastern Europe.)
I had forgotten. It does give the religion of Jews, because it
appends to our ethnicity '-Hebrew'. As in Russia-Hebrew or
England-Hebrew. Which despite that Hebrew is not an ethnicity for
the past 2500 years, is fine with me.
Also, they do record the arrivals of American citizens but the ships I
had looked at a couple months ago didn't *have* any in steerage. Some
ships did, and I'm not sure that all the forms only cover steerage. I
would think they would cover First and Second Class too, except maybe
for the fact that these people went through customs and immigration on
the ship, and didn't go to Ellis Island. But I would expect they
store the records on Ellis Island anyway, or would have combined them
now at the least.
And for you, but it probably won't be there, some entry forms, such as
the one I'm looking at from 1907, and my grandmother's from 1907,
specified in column 18 the person one is going to join, including the
the name and complete address. This works better for wives and
children, because they are often joining the husband or father. For
your ggfather, he may have said no to the INS person's question and
the field was left blank. If you can narrow this down, and find one
with this column and it says Lancaster, you'll know a lot. But did he
really plan to end up in Lancaster when he got off the boat, if he was
an immigrant.
Henry Goodman
"aboutalliknow" <bob_c...@onebox.com> wrote in message
news:7f92e83a.01102...@posting.google.com...
I think 'Ira' is an American name. A few years ago a daughter of a friend of
mine in London married someone called Ira from New York. Everybody here
thought it was a weird name and the joke was that he must be a terrorist
since that is the only connotation these three letters have in Britain.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
It's surely _possible_. I think you should change the word "would"
above, to "could". My father's RIP name was Ira.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
Michael Shimshoni
bob_c...@onebox.com (aboutalliknow) writes:
%My grandfather, who is very ill, was born in the state of Oregon in
%1908. His father's name was "Ira", surname "Good". From what I
%understand Ira came out west from Lancaster Pennsylvania at the turn
%of the century. My grandfather has no idea about his family's ethnic
%heritage, because, he says, "in those days we never asked". My
%grandparents, and my parents, were never religious people, just church
%on Christmas and Easter, etc, Christian if anything. Ira passed away
%in the 1930s. From what I've recently come to understand, the name
%Ira is a very Jewish name, and it can be assumed that anyone with this
%name would be a Jew. I'd like to look into this more, as perhaps my
%grandfather's surname was shortened from Goodstein or something like
%that and I have some Jewish heritage. If anyone can offer comments,
%it would be appreciated. Thanks.
Ira could be the name of a Jew, I know about George's brother Ira
Gershwin. Anyhow Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
Many years I had a summer student who was an Orthodox Jew and came from
USA, his name was Ira as well. Since then he is well settled
in Israel.
Michael Shimshoni
Dr. Shlomo Argamon
MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
> In article <7f92e83a.01102...@posting.google.com%
> bob_c...@onebox.com (aboutalliknow) writes:
>
> %My grandfather, who is very ill, was born in the state of Oregon in
> %1908. His father's name was "Ira", surname "Good". From what I
> %understand Ira came out west from Lancaster Pennsylvania at the turn
> %of the century. My grandfather has no idea about his family's ethnic
> %heritage, because, he says, "in those days we never asked". My
> %grandparents, and my parents, were never religious people, just church
> %on Christmas and Easter, etc, Christian if anything. Ira passed away
> %in the 1930s. From what I've recently come to understand, the name
> %Ira is a very Jewish name, and it can be assumed that anyone with this
> %name would be a Jew. I'd like to look into this more, as perhaps my
> %grandfather's surname was shortened from Goodstein or something like
> %that and I have some Jewish heritage. If anyone can offer comments,
> %it would be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Ira could be the name of a Jew, I know about George's brother Ira
> Gershwin. Anyhow Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
> See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
-Shlomo-
PS: Sorry, the pun really can't be translated, but I couldn't resist!
Dr. Shlomo Argamon
MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
> In article <7f92e83a.01102...@posting.google.com%
> bob_c...@onebox.com (aboutalliknow) writes:
>
> %My grandfather, who is very ill, was born in the state of Oregon in
> %1908. His father's name was "Ira", surname "Good". From what I
> %understand Ira came out west from Lancaster Pennsylvania at the turn
> %of the century. My grandfather has no idea about his family's ethnic
> %heritage, because, he says, "in those days we never asked". My
> %grandparents, and my parents, were never religious people, just church
> %on Christmas and Easter, etc, Christian if anything. Ira passed away
> %in the 1930s. From what I've recently come to understand, the name
> %Ira is a very Jewish name, and it can be assumed that anyone with this
> %name would be a Jew. I'd like to look into this more, as perhaps my
> %grandfather's surname was shortened from Goodstein or something like
> %that and I have some Jewish heritage. If anyone can offer comments,
> %it would be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Ira could be the name of a Jew, I know about George's brother Ira
> Gershwin. Anyhow Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
> See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
-Shlomo-
(Oregon-born)
Ben Dreyfus
: Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
: it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
However, such people are less than one in thousands, as it is written "lo
Ira me-riv'vot am".
--
Benjamin W Dreyfus
dre...@post.harvard.edu
Abe Kohen
"Ben Dreyfus" <dre...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:9r95qf$llv$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
> Dr. Shlomo Argamon <arg...@sunlightnospam.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote:
> : Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
> : it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
>
> However, such people are less than one in thousands, as it is written "lo
> Ira me-riv'vot am".
And I suppose we learn one of God's hidden names: Imadi. (Lo Ira ra, ki atta
Imadi.)
;-)
Abe
Oct 24, 2001 10:54 am EDT
Jonathan Baker
>"Ben Dreyfus" <dre...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote in message
>> Dr. Shlomo Argamon <arg...@sunlightnospam.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>> : Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
>> : it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
>> However, such people are less than one in thousands, as it is written "lo
>> Ira me-riv'vot am".
>And I suppose we learn one of God's hidden names: Imadi. (Lo Ira ra, ki atta
>Imadi.)
Certainly Ira is not a god, as "adoshem li v'lo ira".
--
Jonathan Baker | Marches-wan, marches-two,
jjb...@panix.com | March the months all through and through
Web page <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker>
Will Pratt
Bob,
As someone has said earlier the name Ira is biblical (from 2 Samuel
23:26). However, the custom of giving biblical names was firmly
rooted in 18th and 19th century America. My father's Hebrew name, for
example, was Avraham, but it was given in honor of a non-Jewish
(Quaker) ancestor.
I ran a quick check on standard sources and the combination Ira Good
is fairly uncommon (13 records in the Social Security Death Index) and
is strongly centered in Pennsylvania (of the 13, 6 were
Pennsylvanians). If Ira was indeed from Lancaster County it is
unlikely that any records would be found at Ellis Island, since almost
all settlement of that area was through Philadelphia and mostly in
late 17th through 18th century.
You would need to trace your Ira Good back. The first place to look
for him would be the 1910 Oregon census (since his son was born in
Oregon prior to that date). With his year of birth from that census
it would be possible to locate him in 1900 in Oregon or Pennsylvania,
and run his family back through the census and other records. This is
getting rather far afield from soc.culture.jewish.moderated, so if you
want to contact me by e-mail, I have the resources to do a quick check
of the 1910 census for you, _if_ you know where in Oregon Ira was
living in 1910. (That census hasn't been indexed for Oregon.)
Will
Will Pratt
pra...@unlv.edu
Art Kamlet
Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
Does this really say Ira was a priest?
--
--
Art Kamlet ArtK...@aol.com Columbus OH K2PZH
Michael Shimshoni
Ben Dreyfus <dre...@hcs.harvard.edu% writes:
%Dr. Shlomo Argamon <arg...@sunlightnospam.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote:
%: Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
%: it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
%
%However, such people are less than one in thousands, as it is written "lo
%Ira me-riv'vot am".
As a mathematician let me point out it is one in ten thousand!
%Benjamin W Dreyfus
Back to the Dreyfus affair!
Shabbat Shalom,
Michael Shimshoni
Michael Shimshoni
Jonathan Baker <jjb...@panix.com% writes:
%In <ncis.de> "Abe Kohen" <abek...@yahoo.com> writes:
%>"Ben Dreyfus" <dre...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote in message
%
%>> Dr. Shlomo Argamon <arg...@sunlightnospam.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote:
%>> : Indeed. And people named Ira are known for never doing bad things, as
%>> : it is written "velo Ira ra`" :-)
%
%>> However, such people are less than one in thousands, as it is written "lo
%>> Ira me-riv'vot am".
%
%>And I suppose we learn one of God's hidden names: Imadi. (Lo Ira ra, ki atta
%>Imadi.)
%
%Certainly Ira is not a god, as "adoshem li v'lo ira".
I am getting confused. First it is Imadi, then not Ira and now
it is Li (or in American spelling Lee).
% Jonathan Baker | Marches-wan, marches-two,
Michael Shimshoni
Michael Shimshoni
kam...@shell.core.com (Art Kamlet) writes:
%
%In article <5129BF1...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>,
%Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
%>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
%>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
%
%
%Does this really say Ira was a priest?
That is how I understand the text. What is your understanding of it?
%Art Kamlet ArtK...@aol.com Columbus OH K2PZH
Michael Shimshoni
Linda
raised in Reading PA.
>
>
>
<--->
~*~*~*~*~
Be Well,
Linda
~*~*~*~*~
meirm...@erols.com
kam...@shell.core.com (Art Kamlet) posted:
>In article <5129BF1...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>,
>Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
>>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
>>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
>
>
>Does this really say Ira was a priest?
24. And Adoram was over the tribute; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud
was recorder;
25. (K) And Sheva was scribe; and Zadok and Abiathar were the priests;
26. And Ira also the Jairite was also a priest to David.
>
Ayin yud resh aleph.
t7rh!g o•dşu
:s€Đu7s0k i2v`f v¶h7v h!r!t¶ś8v
V'gam ira hayo'iri hoyoh kohain l'dovid.
Why does the translation have "also" after ira instead of before?
It's first in the Hebrew and with it after, it sounds almost like Ira
and the Jairite are two people, even if the verb is in the singular.
**Also Samuel II 23:26. Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the
Tekoite,... 38. Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,
meirm...@erols.com
pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
>
>I ran a quick check on standard sources and the combination Ira Good
>is fairly uncommon (13 records in the Social Security Death Index) and
>is strongly centered in Pennsylvania (of the 13, 6 were
>Pennsylvanians). If Ira was indeed from Lancaster County it is
>unlikely that any records would be found at Ellis Island, since almost
>all settlement of that area was through Philadelphia and mostly in
>late 17th through 18th century.
I'm sure you're right, and the more I kept at this the less likely I
thought it was that his ancestor was a recent immigrant. Still, I met
a Jewish man in Philadelphia who had a big general store in
Intercourse, and I think he got it in smaller form from his father who
had lived in that small town, having come to the US around 1900. So
there is at least some chance.
Bob has several suggestions now. Maybe one will help. Bob, can you
come back and tell us if you find anthing?
Art Kamlet
Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
>In article <3bd8d1c6$0$43573$272e...@news.execpc.com%
>kam...@shell.core.com (Art Kamlet) writes:
>
>%In article <5129BF1...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>,
>%Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
>%>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
>%>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
>%
>
>That is how I understand the text. What is your understanding of it?
The text seems to be giving David's organization chart:
Joab was chief of staff, etc etc and Tzadok & Aviator were
priests, and Ira the Yarite was kohen to David. (Actually chaf not
caf, but no matter.)
Ira is not lumped together with the 2 priests but in a separate
listing on the organization chart.
As I see the text, as it seems so to many translators, Tzadok &
Aviator were the priests on David's staff, and Ira was a minsiter
of some sort.
The word kohen usually means priest but if we assume a priest to
be descended from Aaron, then that probably didn't apply to Ira
since he is listed separately.
It is like calling someone who provides advice and counsel your
rabbi. He doesn't have to be a rabbi.
The Bible uses words that have more than their usual meaning.
Elohim usually means God but sometimes means other gods and
sometimes means human judges.
The Book of Samuel uses kohen usually to mean a priest but it can
mean a minister who advises just like today a rabbi can have that
meaning, an advisor who is not an actual rabbi.
See for example, 2 Samuel 8:18
u'venei David kohanim hayu
And David's sons were his Kohanim
Now that seems to be the same example of a kohen being a chief
advisor or minister to the king, similar to Ira's position on
David's staff later on.
- posted & emailed -
--
--
Art Kamlet
Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
>Ira could be the name of a Jew, I know about George's brother Ira
>Gershwin. Anyhow Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
And there seems to be another Ira on David's staff:
See 2 Sam 23:26
Michael Shimshoni
meirm...@erols.com writes:
%In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 26 Oct 2001 05:11:25 GMT
%kam...@shell.core.com (Art Kamlet) posted:
%
%>In article <5129BF1...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>,
%>Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
%>>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
%>>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
%>
%>
%>Does this really say Ira was a priest?
%
%24. And Adoram was over the tribute; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud
%was recorder;
%25. (K) And Sheva was scribe; and Zadok and Abiathar were the priests;
%26. And Ira also the Jairite was also a priest to David.
%>
%Ayin yud resh aleph.
%
%t7rh!g o d:u
% :s
?????????????
%
%V'gam ira hayo'iri hoyoh kohain l'dovid.
%
%Why does the translation have "also" after ira instead of before?
%It's first in the Hebrew and with it after, it sounds almost like Ira
%and the Jairite are two people, even if the verb is in the singular.
I agree that "also" should be before. I do not know which translation
you have used, I have only the Hebrew text.
%**Also Samuel II 23:26. Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the
%Tekoite,... 38. Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,
AFAIR Ira is also mentioned in Divre hayamim (Chro.).
%mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
Michael Shimshoni
meirm...@erols.com
MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Michael Shimshoni) posted:
>In article <golmtt4qsgb0jr9oj...@4ax.com%
>meirm...@erols.com writes:
>
>%In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 26 Oct 2001 05:11:25 GMT
>%kam...@shell.core.com (Art Kamlet) posted:
>%
>%>In article <5129BF1...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>,
>%>Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
>%>>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
>%>>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
>%>
>%>
>%>Does this really say Ira was a priest?
>%
>%24. And Adoram was over the tribute; and Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud
>%was recorder;
>%25. (K) And Sheva was scribe; and Zadok and Abiathar were the priests;
>%26. And Ira also the Jairite was also a priest to David.
~~~~~~
>%Ayin yud resh aleph.
>%
>%t7rh!g o d:u
>% :s
>
>?????????????
I copied and pasted the actual Hebrew. I can't read it either, but I
thought maybe someone could, maybe if they already had Hebrew windows.
>%
>%V'gam ira hayo'iri hoyoh kohain l'dovid.
>%
>%Why does the translation have "also" after ira instead of before?
>%It's first in the Hebrew and with it after, it sounds almost like Ira
>%and the Jairite are two people, even if the verb is in the singular.
>
>I agree that "also" should be before. I do not know which translation
>you have used, I have only the Hebrew text.
I have a 1995 Davka CD. It barely gives any credit to the translator.
On the Help | About screen it says it is D. Mandel. Not even a first
name. Any idea who he is?
I failed to note that he also put in a second "also", "also a priest
to David".
>%**Also Samuel II 23:26. Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the
>%Tekoite,... 38. Ira an Ithrite, Gareb an Ithrite,
>
>AFAIR Ira is also mentioned in Divre hayamim (Chro.).
Yes 3 references there, two for the son of Ikkesh and one the Ithrite.
I guess I just stopped with Samuel for some reason, because I didn't
notice at that time that no new people were involved.
>
>%mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
>
> Michael Shimshoni
mei...@QQQerols.com If you email me, please let me know whether
Michael Shimshoni
kam...@shell.core.com (Art Kamlet) writes:
%In article <513A778...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>,
%Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
%>In article <3bd8d1c6$0$43573$272e...@news.execpc.com%%>%Michael Shimshoni <MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> wrote:
%>%>Ira is a Biblical name, one of King David's priests.
%>%>See Samuel (Shmuel) II, 20,26.
%>%
%>%Does this really say Ira was a priest?
%>That is how I understand the text. What is your understanding of it?
%
%
%The text seems to be giving David's organization chart:
%
%Joab was chief of staff, etc etc and Tzadok & Aviator were
%priests, and Ira the Yarite was kohen to David. (Actually chaf not
%caf, but no matter.)
It really does not matter. It is there khohen and not kohen because
of the previous word "hayah" ending with a heh. By itself it isI
kohen.
%Ira is not lumped together with the 2 priests but in a separate
%listing on the organization chart.
%
%As I see the text, as it seems so to many translators, Tzadok &
%Aviator were the priests on David's staff, and Ira was a minsiter
%of some sort.
%
%The word kohen usually means priest but if we assume a priest to
%be descended from Aaron, then that probably didn't apply to Ira
%since he is listed separately.
This being listed separately does not seem so relevant, it could be
because Ira was David's personal kohen, like a personal confessor to
Pope...
%It is like calling someone who provides advice and counsel your
%rabbi. He doesn't have to be a rabbi.
This could be a USA usage. I am not familiar with this use of rabbi.
%The Bible uses words that have more than their usual meaning.
%Elohim usually means God but sometimes means other gods and
%sometimes means human judges.
%
%The Book of Samuel uses kohen usually to mean a priest but it can
%mean a minister who advises just like today a rabbi can have that
%meaning, an advisor who is not an actual rabbi.
%
%See for example, 2 Samuel 8:18
%
% u'venei David kohanim hayu
%
% And David's sons were his Kohanim
With David's sons you are on pretty firm ground unlike with Ira
(although your view is still possible).
%Now that seems to be the same example of a kohen being a chief
%advisor or minister to the king, similar to Ira's position on
%David's staff later on.
% - posted & emailed -
%Art Kamlet ArtK...@aol.com Columbus OH K2PZH
Michael Shimshoni
Will Pratt
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 25 Oct 2001 19:52:11 GMT
> pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
>
> >
> >I ran a quick check on standard sources and the combination Ira Good
> >is fairly uncommon (13 records in the Social Security Death Index) and
> I'm sure you're right, and the more I kept at this the less likely I
> thought it was that his ancestor was a recent immigrant. Still, I met
> a Jewish man in Philadelphia who had a big general store in
> Intercourse, and I think he got it in smaller form from his father who
> had lived in that small town, having come to the US around 1900. So
> there is at least some chance.
But he probably immigrated at Philadelphia. IIRC, his record would
not be found at Ellis Island.
In any case, Bob, the International Genealogical Index includes a
probable match for your Ira Good.
Ira Good, b, 10 Feb 1879 at Bareville, Lancaster Co, PA, Father Harry
Good, Mother Lydia Herr, married 1872 in Lancaster, PA. You'd need to
verify this by census studies, etc.
Hope this is of some use,
Will
Will Pratt
pra...@unlv.edu
meirm...@erols.com
pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
>meirm...@erols.com wrote in message news:<qolmtt0kps4l496dg...@4ax.com>...
>> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 25 Oct 2001 19:52:11 GMT
>> pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
>>
>> >
>> >I ran a quick check on standard sources and the combination Ira Good
>> >is fairly uncommon (13 records in the Social Security Death Index) and
>[snip]
>> I'm sure you're right, and the more I kept at this the less likely I
>> thought it was that his ancestor was a recent immigrant. Still, I met
>> a Jewish man in Philadelphia who had a big general store in
>> Intercourse,
or near there.
>>and I think he got it in smaller form from his father who
>> had lived in that small town, having come to the US around 1900. So
>> there is at least some chance.
>
>But he probably immigrated at Philadelphia. IIRC, his record would
>not be found at Ellis Island.
You might know. I read once that immigration was controlled by the
states at one time, even if the rules they followed were those of the
Federal gov't. And that the Feds didn't exert full control until
about the time Ellis Island opened. Do you know what I am referring
to?
>
>In any case, Bob, the International Genealogical Index includes a
>probable match for your Ira Good.
>
>Ira Good, b, 10 Feb 1879 at Bareville, Lancaster Co, PA, Father Harry
>Good, Mother Lydia Herr, married 1872 in Lancaster, PA. You'd need to
>verify this by census studies, etc.
Cool.
>Hope this is of some use,
>
>Will
>
>Will Pratt
>pra...@unlv.edu
Will Pratt
meirm...@erols.com wrote in message news:<jpprttos02336frb4...@4ax.com>...
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 29 Oct 2001 16:56:44 GMT
> pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
>
> >meirm...@erols.com wrote in message news:<qolmtt0kps4l496dg...@4ax.com>...
> >> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated on 25 Oct 2001 19:52:11 GMT
> >> pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
> >But he probably immigrated at Philadelphia. IIRC, his record would
> >not be found at Ellis Island.
>
> You might know. I read once that immigration was controlled by the
> states at one time, even if the rules they followed were those of the
> Federal gov't. And that the Feds didn't exert full control until
> about the time Ellis Island opened. Do you know what I am referring
> to?
Actually, Immigration has always been a Federal matter, but records
were very loosely kept, when they were kept at all, during the 18th
and early 19th century. By the time that Ellis Island opened during
the late 19th century recordkeeping had stabilized and the vast
majority have been preserved. The Ellis website has a database of the
Ellis Island records online, but only the Ellis Island records. But
during the late 19th and early 20th centuries Boston, Philadelphia,
and Charleston were important immigration ports on the east coast (and
prior to about 1840 Philadelphia was the most important port in the
US), New Orleans and Galveston were major arrival ports on the Gulf
Coast, and on the west coast Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles
were important. All the records for all theses ports are available
from about 1880 on, at the National Archives, but the Ellis Island
site has only those from Ellis Island.
Will Pratt
pra...@unlv.edu
meirm...@erols.com
pra...@nevada.edu (Will Pratt) posted:
>> You might know. I read once that immigration was controlled by the
>> states at one time, even if the rules they followed were those of the
>> Federal gov't. And that the Feds didn't exert full control until
>> about the time Ellis Island opened. Do you know what I am referring
>> to?
>
>Actually, Immigration has always been a Federal matter, but records
I should have said "administered by the states". I have a recollection
of hearing, perhaps at Ellis Island, that although the laws and rules
were federal, sometimes maybe state employees got responsibility for
administering them. ??
>were very loosely kept, when they were kept at all, during the 18th
>and early 19th century. By the time that Ellis Island opened during
>the late 19th century recordkeeping had stabilized and the vast
>majority have been preserved. The Ellis website has a database of the
>Ellis Island records online, but only the Ellis Island records. But
>during the late 19th and early 20th centuries Boston, Philadelphia,
>and Charleston were important immigration ports on the east coast (and
>prior to about 1840 Philadelphia was the most important port in the
>US), New Orleans and Galveston were major arrival ports on the Gulf
>Coast, and on the west coast Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles
>were important. All the records for all theses ports are available
>from about 1880 on, at the National Archives, but the Ellis Island
>site has only those from Ellis Island.
>Will Pratt
>pra...@unlv.edu