What would you do if your daughter was dating a Muslim?

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ingr...@yahoo.com

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Dec 5, 2005, 6:53:15 PM12/5/05
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My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
in college.

He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.

He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.

Patricia Heil

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Dec 5, 2005, 9:41:48 PM12/5/05
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<ingr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133823256.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...


Meet the family. If he doesn't want you to, get Cindy's opinion. There was
a long thread about a situation that turned out well for the girl and
probably saved her from big trouble. Not saying that's the case here, but
anybody who doesn't want your daughter to meet their family or spend time
with yours is probably not a good prospect.
>

cindys

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Dec 6, 2005, 12:58:38 AM12/6/05
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"Patricia Heil" <paj...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fN5lf.9707$N45....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

>
> <ingr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1133823256.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
> > in college.
> >
> > He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
> > all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
> > choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
> > another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.
> >
> > He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
> > heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.
>
>
> Meet the family. If he doesn't want you to, get Cindy's opinion. There
was
> a long thread about a situation that turned out well for the girl and
> probably saved her from big trouble.

The situation turned out well for the girl because God was watching over
her. She was planning to go to Israel to join the IDF...or at least that was
what she told everyone. Actually, her *fiance* was planning to meet her at
Newark Airport (or JFK) and they were going to sneak away together before
she could board her connecting flight to Israel. Then, they would marry. The
plot was discovered because she had confided it to a friend who decided to
phone the rabbi of her synagogue and spill the beans. The rabbi notified her
father and other community members.

A family friend had bought the ticket to fly her from our city to Newark (it
was supposed to be a going away present). He had bought the ticket on a
credit card. After he heard what she had in mind (at the proverbial 11th
hour), he managed to cancel the ticket while she was en route to the
airport. Since she didn't have any money to buy her own ticket, she was
forced to return home. The flight was rescheduled for a few days later, and
it was decided that this time, her father would fly with her to Newark and
not leave her side until she boarded El Al. The family friend had wired
money to Israel that she would not be able to access until she arrived in
Israel. Her father ensured that she would be traveling essentially without
cash (to preempt her leaving the Newark airport in a taxi to meet her
*fiance*).

Meanwhile, her fiance had the chutzpah to phone her brother on his cell
phone to find out what time was the girl's flight to Israel. Her brother
told him that her flight had already left and that she was already en route
to Israel. At the time of the phone call, the girl was actually still on the
ground in New York. To make a long story short, the girl did get on the
flight to Israel and did in fact enter the IDF. She came home to visit her
father this past spring and said she was very happy. The fiance was
thankfully never heard from again.

>Not saying that's the case here, but
> anybody who doesn't want your daughter to meet their family or spend time
> with yours is probably not a good prospect.

Agreed. But even if he is willing to let her daughter meet his family and
spend time with hers, it doesn't mean anything. In the situation I
described, the Muslim fiance had had several lengthy conversations with the
girl's father in which he had convinced the girl's father that he was a very
nice guy. Except what he really had in mind was to use her to become an
American citizen, so that his family in Egypt could immigrate to the USA and
get their green cards. My Israeli friend tells me that a number of Jewish
women live in Gaza who married Arabs. Many of them are miserable. Sometimes,
they are able to escape from their husbands and come back to Israel, often
without their children, to live lives of misery. Maybe the OP should ask
some of the Israeli posters for their input about this situation. I already
cited Fiona, who used to live in Israel.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

in...@rambam.biz

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Dec 6, 2005, 2:26:06 AM12/6/05
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I got this piece of Moslem halacha from here:

http://islam.about.com/blinterfaith.htm

The Qur'an lays out clear guidelines for marriage. One of the main
traits you should look for in a potential spouse is a similarity in
religious outlook. For the sake of compatibility, and the upbringing
of future children, it is most recommended for a Muslim to marry
another Muslim. However, in some circumstances it is permissible for a
Muslim to marry a non-Muslim.

Muslim Man and Non-Muslim Woman

In general, Muslim men are not permitted to marry non-Muslim women.
"Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe. A slave woman who
believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures
you.... Unbelievers beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His
Grace to the garden of bliss and forgiveness. And He makes His signs
clear to mankind, that they may receive admonition" (Qur'an 2:221).

An exception is made for Muslim men to marry chaste or pious Jewish and
Christian women, who are referred to as "People of the Book." This
comes from the understanding that Jews and Christians share similar
religious outlooks - a belief in One God, following the commandments of
Allah, a belief in revealed scripture (Books), etc. "This day are all
things good and pure made lawful to you.... Lawful to you in marriage
are not only chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the
People of the Book, revealed before your time, when you give them their
due dowers, and desire chastity not lewdness. If any one rejects
faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the
ranks of those who have lost" (Qur'an 5:5).

The children of such a union are always to be raised in the faith of
Islam. This should be discussed thoroughly by the couple before they
decide to marry.

Muslim Woman and Non-Muslim Man

Under no conditions is a Muslim woman permitted to marry anyone but a
Muslim man. The same verse cited above (2:221) mentions, "Nor marry
your girls to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes
is better than an unbeliever...." No exception is given for women to
marry Jews and Christians, so the law stands that she may only marry a
believing (Muslim) man. As head of the household, the husband provides
leadership for the family. A Muslim woman does not follow the
leadership of someone who does not share her faith and values.

So:
1. As long as your daughter is chaste and pious, he's allowed to marry
her under his religion.
2. Realize that your grandsons may be expected to bow 5 times a day
facing Mecca. Simcha

Beach Runner

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Dec 6, 2005, 5:40:16 AM12/6/05
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in...@rambam.biz wrote:


And then he can throw out the Islam and convert if he truly cared. But
is that to much to hope for. I smell a rat, and hope I'm wrong.
>

cindys

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Dec 6, 2005, 9:14:14 AM12/6/05
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<ingr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133823256.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
-------
I'm not sure which aspect of this is troubling you the most. Obviously, you
don't feel comfortable with this situation or you wouldn't be posting about
it to SCJM. The Jewish position is that there is no such thing as
*marrriage* between a Jew and a non-Jew. It is a forbidden relationship.
Your daughter and her Muslim husband will be rejected by the entire Jewish
community, much worse than if she were *marrying* a Christian. And if you
are feeling uncomfortable about the guy himself, you have good reason to
feel that way----

Last year, a young, Jewish girl in my community was planning to run off with
and marry a Muslim. I posted about it on this newsgroup and I am going to
take the liberty of copying and pasting Fiona's response:

"A Jewish woman is considered a good catch by many Muslims, it's considered
part of the humiliation of non-Muslims that the Koran encourages along with
wife beating and the restriction of women's rights. Islam permits a Muslim
man to marry a Jewish or Christian woman without them needing to convert and
the children will still be considered Muslim as Islam is patrilineal (that's
why in divorce cases where the mother is not a Muslim, a Sharia court will
always award custody to the father and which is why in such cases the
divorce is always done abroad in Muslim state). it doesn't work the other
way round, if a non-Muslim man so much as touches a Muslim woman, Islam says
he should be killed.

Fiona "

And my comment is that I wouldn't trust what this guy says for a second
about *hating* Islam and wanting to convert out of it. Baloney! If he wants
to "convert out of it," nothing is stopping him. America is a free country.
We're not living in Saudi Arabia. No can impose Sharia law in this country.
And if he tells you "there's no such thing as converting out of Islam," you
can tell him there's no such thing as "converting out of Judaism" either yet
there are plenty of Jewish people who will tell you they did exactly that.
But the reality is that your daughter and this man are adults, and if they
are bound and determined to marry, nothing you say is going to stop them.
Just be ready to pick up the pieces. Pat Heil also sent me a great response
by e-mail, which I no longer have, so I hope she is reading this and can
respond again.

Best regards,

---Cindy S.


cindys

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Dec 6, 2005, 10:00:45 AM12/6/05
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"Beach Runner" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Z1dlf.12359$6e....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...

> And then he can throw out the Islam and convert if he truly cared. But
> is that to much to hope for. I smell a rat, and hope I'm wrong.
-----
I agree with you. A few years ago, a Muslim man posted to SCJM stating that
he was looking to date a Jewish girl, that he loved the Jewish religion,
that he even wanted to convert to Judaism! Then, we scratched the surface
and found he basically knew zilch about the religion he claimed he *loved*
so much. One of the other posters told me (via e-mail) that it is not
unusual for Muslims who are involved in clandestine activities to
specifically seek Jewish wives as a cover. And don't think that just because
a person is born in the United States versus an Arab country that he
necessarily feels differently. IIRC, the last terrorist attack in Britain
was carried out by native-born British Muslims. And the sleeping cells do
conduct model lives as Americans, until they are needed. Mohammed Atta was a
nice guy, a good neighbor, a model citizen...until he flew a plane into the
twin towers. And no, I am not suggesting that this legal student is a
terrorist. I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

My Israeli friend's son was a student at George Washington University. His
roommates were Muslim. My neighbor wanted him to move out. Her son refused,
insisting that they were really nice guys who wouldn't hurt a fly. My
neighbor was beside herself with worry. She phoned the dean and got her
son's room changed. She told me that Americans just don't get it. We have a
certain western mentality that we abide by and Christians generally also
abide by, and we like to assume that all people are basically good unless we
find out otherwise. We try to be open-minded. We don't want anyone to label
us as "racist" or "intolerant." But as one of my friends likes to say "If
you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out." This is your daughter
that you're talking about. Do you want to take a chance with this?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Lisa

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:35:51 AM12/6/05
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cindys wrote:
>
> Last year, a young, Jewish girl in my community was planning to run off with
> and marry a Muslim. I posted about it on this newsgroup and I am going to
> take the liberty of copying and pasting Fiona's response:
>
> "A Jewish woman is considered a good catch by many Muslims, it's considered
> part of the humiliation of non-Muslims that the Koran encourages along with
> wife beating and the restriction of women's rights. Islam permits a Muslim
> man to marry a Jewish or Christian woman without them needing to convert and
> the children will still be considered Muslim as Islam is patrilineal (that's
> why in divorce cases where the mother is not a Muslim, a Sharia court will
> always award custody to the father and which is why in such cases the
> divorce is always done abroad in Muslim state). it doesn't work the other
> way round, if a non-Muslim man so much as touches a Muslim woman, Islam says
> he should be killed.
>
> Fiona "

Did you know that in the "Jewish State" of Israel, the child of a
Muslim father and a Jewish mother is registered by the Interior
Ministry as a Muslim?

I don't know why we worry about goyim hating us when the Jews do such a
better job at it...

Lisa

Andy Katz

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Dec 6, 2005, 2:33:52 PM12/6/05
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:00:45 +0000 (UTC), "cindys"
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Beach Runner" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:Z1dlf.12359$6e....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>> And then he can throw out the Islam and convert if he truly cared. But
>> is that to much to hope for. I smell a rat, and hope I'm wrong.
>-----
>I agree with you. A few years ago, a Muslim man posted to SCJM stating that
>he was looking to date a Jewish girl, that he loved the Jewish religion,
>that he even wanted to convert to Judaism! Then, we scratched the surface
>and found he basically knew zilch about the religion he claimed he *loved*
>so much. One of the other posters told me (via e-mail) that it is not
>unusual for Muslims who are involved in clandestine activities to
>specifically seek Jewish wives as a cover.

Is there an actual cite for the above assertion?

I ask because it really goes against common sense. Intermarraige is
controversial in the Jewish community in ways it isn't in other US
populations, so why risk drawing attention to yourself by stirring
controversy. A Muslim is a Muslim, even with a Jewish wife.

Furthermore, given what might happen to a Muslim non-citizen even
remotely suspected of terrorist ties or inclinations, such an
assertion is even more dangerous than 50s-era red-baiting.

I write this as opposed to intermarriage as anyone here. But I've seen
what happens when parents lie or go too far in their opposition. My
sister became engaged to a Catholic back in '69. My parents stood
firm, my mother in particular. Her reward was never to see her
daughter again and to die never having seen either of her halachically
Jewish grandchildren.

My parents were right about my sister's fiancee being a bum (though
this didn't necessarily have anything to do with his religion). But so
what? She had to see it for herself. Expelling her from their lives
changed nothing, and probably made things worse, because once my
sister woke up and smelled the coffee she had nowhere to go, nobody to
turn to.

I think your friend's family is very lucky. It's not a typical
situation when a young woman seems to say, If I miss my flight I'll
marry this Muslim dude, otherwise I'll go to Israel and join the IDF.

I'm sure it wasn't that simple, but my point is that she could just
have easily have resented their actions and re-doubled her efforts to
be with her fiancee.

>My Israeli friend's son was a student at George Washington University. His
>roommates were Muslim. My neighbor wanted him to move out. Her son refused,
>insisting that they were really nice guys who wouldn't hurt a fly. My
>neighbor was beside herself with worry. She phoned the dean and got her
>son's room changed. She told me that Americans just don't get it. We have a
>certain western mentality that we abide by and Christians generally also
>abide by, and we like to assume that all people are basically good unless we
>find out otherwise. We try to be open-minded. We don't want anyone to label
>us as "racist" or "intolerant." But as one of my friends likes to say "If
>you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out." This is your daughter
>that you're talking about. Do you want to take a chance with this?

This really doesn't say anything about the Muslim roommates (were they
even Arabs, or Middle Easterners?). If you heard about a gentile
mother doing the same because *her* son had Jewish roommates would you
cite it as an example of Jewish perfidy and lack of shared values?

Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
Asians, etc...

Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(

Andy Katz
____________________________________________
"There's more to being a Jew than jewelry!"

Charlotte York, "Sex & The City"

The Simpsons

Bastard Nation
http://www.bastards.org

Fiona Abrahami

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Dec 6, 2005, 2:52:53 PM12/6/05
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"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote

> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
> Asians, etc...
>
> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(

Major difference though, Blacks, Irish, and Asians don't have 1400 years
history of persecuting Jews. That aspect of Islamic history alone should
make Jewish parents sit up and think, regardless of the current concerns
about terrorism.


Fiona

Steve Goldfarb

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Dec 6, 2005, 3:01:43 PM12/6/05
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>

>"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote

More importantly, "Black," "Irish," and "Asian" speak to a person's (or a
person's ancestor's) geographic origin. Imputing anything about a
person's values or beliefs based upon the color of their skin or their
ancestor's place of origin is, by definition, racist. Not to mention
pointless.

"Muslim," OTOH, is precisely a statement of one's beliefs and values.

(for the record, "Jew" is of course a bit of each)

--s

>Fiona

--

Andy Katz

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Dec 6, 2005, 3:23:39 PM12/6/05
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Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews, yet I
don't think in the example cited that the mother would have contacted
the dean had the roomies been Seventh Day Adventists.

Main point, though, is that we've heard "you don't know them like we
know them!" before. It's been applied to many different peoples,
ourselves included, and never once has it been validated by history.

cindys

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Dec 6, 2005, 3:36:37 PM12/6/05
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"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:serbp1956erpni3pe...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:52:53 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
> <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> >> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
> >> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
> >> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
> >> Asians, etc...
> >>
> >> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
> >
> >Major difference though, Blacks, Irish, and Asians don't have 1400 years
> >history of persecuting Jews. That aspect of Islamic history alone should
> >make Jewish parents sit up and think, regardless of the current concerns
> >about terrorism.
>
> Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews, yet I
> don't think in the example cited that the mother would have contacted
> the dean had the roomies been Seventh Day Adventists.
>
> Main point, though, is that we've

Who's "we?"

>heard "you don't know them like we
> know them!" before. It's been applied to many different peoples,
> ourselves included, and never once has it been validated by history.

Except this has already been validated by history, repeatedly, and continues
to be validated, right in front of our eyes, every day of the week.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Andy Katz

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Dec 6, 2005, 3:39:05 PM12/6/05
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 20:01:43 +0000 (UTC), "Steve Goldfarb"
<s...@panix.com> wrote:

>More importantly, "Black," "Irish," and "Asian" speak to a person's (or a
>person's ancestor's) geographic origin. Imputing anything about a
>person's values or beliefs based upon the color of their skin or their
>ancestor's place of origin is, by definition, racist. Not to mention
>pointless.
>
>"Muslim," OTOH, is precisely a statement of one's beliefs and values.

Not quite. Islam speaks *more* to one's beliefs than say Irish
descent, but the difference isn't absolute, and if imputing values
onto one is racist or inappropriate, then we need to think carefully
about imputing values on to the other. Eg., I believe that in many if
not most important ways a Muslim Malay has more in common with with
his Chinese countryman than he does with an Albanian or a Saudi,
despite sharing a religion in common.

That's why it troubled me that in Cindy's example the roommates are
identified only as Muslim. Had they been Saudi or Palestinian, then I
should have had little to say.

Furthermore, some of the most vituperative anti-Israel/anti-semitic
posters I've ever come across on Usenet have been Christian,
Palestinian Christian.

>(for the record, "Jew" is of course a bit of each)

There is no "safe" position on the curve. Eg., it's considered naive
to the point to racist to assume that Black Americans have an outlook
and experience that's identical to white Americans. Yet this should
not lead to the conclusion that any differences in values between us
are insurmountable.

Content of their character ....;-)

Andy Katz

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Dec 6, 2005, 3:51:48 PM12/6/05
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On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 20:36:37 +0000 (UTC), "cindys"
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:serbp1956erpni3pe...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:52:53 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
>> <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote
>> >
>> >> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
>> >> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
>> >> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
>> >> Asians, etc...
>> >>
>> >> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
>> >
>> >Major difference though, Blacks, Irish, and Asians don't have 1400 years
>> >history of persecuting Jews. That aspect of Islamic history alone should
>> >make Jewish parents sit up and think, regardless of the current concerns
>> >about terrorism.
>>
>> Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews, yet I
>> don't think in the example cited that the mother would have contacted
>> the dean had the roomies been Seventh Day Adventists.
>>
>> Main point, though, is that we've
>
>Who's "we?"

Any American reasonably familiar with history.

>>heard "you don't know them like we
>> know them!" before. It's been applied to many different peoples,
>> ourselves included, and never once has it been validated by history.
>
>Except this has already been validated by history, repeatedly, and continues
>to be validated, right in front of our eyes, every day of the week.

Not really. Without knowing the erstwhile roommates' ethnic and/or
national background it's impossible to say to what degree they shared
the predominant values of most Americans. If you want to insist that
their religion is their primary source of identity, go right ahead,
but without knowing them that assertion carries no real weight.

Anyway, seguing into yet another debate about what they're "really
like" wasn't my intention here. I'd like to reiterate by saying that
while I'm no more in favor of having my child wed a Muslim (or
Christian or Buddhist) than anyone else here, I caution against using
deceit or manipulation to acheive that end. I hope the benefit of my
family's experience might help some avoid recourse to the Josh Option.

I'm absolutely positive that my niece and nephew would have had at
least a decent shot at being raised with a Jewish identity had they
and their mother not been cut out of my family's life. The loss of
that makes me quite a bit angrier than many here would imagine.

I close with two questions:

How did the young collegian react to his mother's machinations?

and...

Do you suppose the girl saved from possible marriage to an Egyptian
took part in the IDF's expulsion of settlers from Gush Katif?

;-)

Steve Goldfarb

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Dec 6, 2005, 4:23:56 PM12/6/05
to

>>"Muslim," OTOH, is precisely a statement of one's beliefs and values.

>Not quite. Islam speaks *more* to one's beliefs than say Irish
>descent, but the difference isn't absolute, and if imputing values
>onto one is racist or inappropriate, then we need to think carefully
>about imputing values on to the other. Eg., I believe that in many if
>not most important ways a Muslim Malay has more in common with with
>his Chinese countryman than he does with an Albanian or a Saudi,
>despite sharing a religion in common.

"Muslim" speaks entirely to one's beliefs. "Irish" speaks not at all to
one's beliefs. I do agree, though, that like most other belief systems
there is a good degree of variance within Islam, and so just because one
Muslim believes X you can't necessarily assume that all Muslims do. Which
is, I think, your point. But I think there are certain beliefs that, if
someone calls themselves a "Muslim," you may and should assume that they
too hold those beliefs, unless they tell you otherwise.

Further, you get into doctrinal and adherence issues -- not all Catholics
believe that abortion is wrong, for example, but where they don't believe
it, they are diverging from Catholicism. Islam is undoubtedly different
because it's deregulated, but nevertheless they'd be unlikely to say "As I
Muslim I believe we should eat pork," but rather "Despite being a Muslim,
I believe we should eat pork."

To your second point, yes - religion is not the sum total of one's belief
system. However, it's much harder to form a conclusion regarding one's
belief system based on the happenstance of their birth, versus a
self-declared statement of adherence to a creed. "I am a Muslim" implies
much more than "I was born in France."

>That's why it troubled me that in Cindy's example the roommates are
>identified only as Muslim. Had they been Saudi or Palestinian, then I
>should have had little to say.

Why?

>Furthermore, some of the most vituperative anti-Israel/anti-semitic
>posters I've ever come across on Usenet have been Christian,
>Palestinian Christian.

Sure, but so?

>>(for the record, "Jew" is of course a bit of each)

>There is no "safe" position on the curve. Eg., it's considered naive
>to the point to racist to assume that Black Americans have an outlook
>and experience that's identical to white Americans. Yet this should
>not lead to the conclusion that any differences in values between us
>are insurmountable.

In my view there's no such thing as "Black Americans" and "White
Americans." Attempting to make that distinction is inherently and
definitionally racist. Finish this sentence in a way that isn't racist --
"All Black Americans are...."

With Jews, when you speak solely of "Jews" its ambigious because there's
an ethnic component and a religious component. But once you qualify it
with a word like "Orthodox" or "Reform" or "Conservative" than you're
talking about religion, and it's fair IMO to make assumptions about
beliefs.

>Content of their character ....;-)

Exactly.

--s
--

Jackie

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Dec 6, 2005, 6:28:38 PM12/6/05
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<ingr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133823256.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

I have, My son-in-law, Adam is Muslim. He is good to my daughter and their
children; a devoted father and husband. But what I find most commendable
about him is a discussion he had with his father in which he said. "Tanya
is my wife and she is Jewish and my children are therefore Jewish and I too
may decide to become Jewish."
He was very upset by the fact that, after 9/11 Muslims who condemned the
attack also added that it was understandable in view of the situation in the
Middle East.
Jackie
>


.

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 6:28:41 PM12/6/05
to
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:23:56 +0000 (UTC), "Steve Goldfarb"
<s...@panix.com> wrote:

>In <72tbp1h2jrfs9klar...@4ax.com> amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:
>
>>>"Muslim," OTOH, is precisely a statement of one's beliefs and values.
>
>>Not quite. Islam speaks *more* to one's beliefs than say Irish
>>descent, but the difference isn't absolute, and if imputing values
>>onto one is racist or inappropriate, then we need to think carefully
>>about imputing values on to the other. Eg., I believe that in many if
>>not most important ways a Muslim Malay has more in common with with
>>his Chinese countryman than he does with an Albanian or a Saudi,
>>despite sharing a religion in common.
>
>"Muslim" speaks entirely to one's beliefs. "Irish" speaks not at all to
>one's beliefs. I do agree, though, that like most other belief systems
>there is a good degree of variance within Islam, and so just because one
>Muslim believes X you can't necessarily assume that all Muslims do. Which
>is, I think, your point. But I think there are certain beliefs that, if
>someone calls themselves a "Muslim," you may and should assume that they
>too hold those beliefs, unless they tell you otherwise.

There was a time, however, not long ago when many assumed, nay they
*knew* that being Irish *was* pretty much the sum total one's beliefs:
eg, they were all papist, shiftless, immoral, lazy, dishonest,
violent, etc.

Now we identify that as a form of racism, or perhaps bigotry at the
very least.

I suggest the same may be true wrt Islam, at least insofar as the
actions of the mother in Cindy's example are concerned.

>Further, you get into doctrinal and adherence issues -- not all Catholics
>believe that abortion is wrong, for example, but where they don't believe
>it, they are diverging from Catholicism. Islam is undoubtedly different
>because it's deregulated, but nevertheless they'd be unlikely to say "As I
>Muslim I believe we should eat pork," but rather "Despite being a Muslim,
>I believe we should eat pork."

This is where our ability to discuss the issue from a standpoint of
anything but ignorance breaks down. I used to live near a fairly large
Albanian community, which was adjacent to a more polyglot Islamic
community. On the level with which I interacted with them--eg,
playdates with their kids and my son, PTA--they seemed to have far
more in common with US Jews and gentiles than they did with the more
devout Pakistanis and/or Arabs of Cobble Hill.

Of course, that's far from the last word over their commonality or
lack of same, but it's enough to cause me to react skeptically when I
hear things about Muslims.

>To your second point, yes - religion is not the sum total of one's belief
>system. However, it's much harder to form a conclusion regarding one's
>belief system based on the happenstance of their birth, versus a
>self-declared statement of adherence to a creed. "I am a Muslim" implies
>much more than "I was born in France."
>
>>That's why it troubled me that in Cindy's example the roommates are
>>identified only as Muslim. Had they been Saudi or Palestinian, then I
>>should have had little to say.
>
>Why?

Because Palestinians are fighting Jews, and it's from this
long-standing conflict that much of the general Muslim antipathy
towards Jews derives. Wrt Saudis, perhaps I'm being unfair, but it
troubles that so much extremism against the west comes from or is
financed by Saudis.

>>Furthermore, some of the most vituperative anti-Israel/anti-semitic
>>posters I've ever come across on Usenet have been Christian,
>>Palestinian Christian.
>
>Sure, but so?

That suggests that in this instance it *is* nationality and not
religion that fuels extremist attitudes. To say "I'm a Palestinian,"
(in the commonly accepted definition), in short, *does* imply certain
beliefs and attitudes.


>
>>>(for the record, "Jew" is of course a bit of each)
>
>>There is no "safe" position on the curve. Eg., it's considered naive
>>to the point to racist to assume that Black Americans have an outlook
>>and experience that's identical to white Americans. Yet this should
>>not lead to the conclusion that any differences in values between us
>>are insurmountable.
>
>In my view there's no such thing as "Black Americans" and "White
>Americans." Attempting to make that distinction is inherently and
>definitionally racist. Finish this sentence in a way that isn't racist --
>"All Black Americans are...."

"All Black Americans have an experience of being an American that is
different, in varying degrees, from that of non-Black Americans."

>With Jews, when you speak solely of "Jews" its ambigious because there's
>an ethnic component and a religious component. But once you qualify it
>with a word like "Orthodox" or "Reform" or "Conservative" than you're
>talking about religion, and it's fair IMO to make assumptions about
>beliefs.
>
>>Content of their character ....;-)
>
>Exactly.

;-)

Fiona Abrahami

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 6:55:57 PM12/6/05
to

"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote


> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote

> >> Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews, yet I


> >> don't think in the example cited that the mother would have contacted
> >> the dean had the roomies been Seventh Day Adventists.
> >>
> >> Main point, though, is that we've
> >
> >Who's "we?"
>
> Any American reasonably familiar with history.

And what history are you familiar with Andy, certainly not the history of
Jews in Arab lands?


Fiona

Fiona Abrahami

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 7:00:45 PM12/6/05
to

"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote


> "Fiona Abrahami" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> >> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
> >> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
> >> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
> >> Asians, etc...
> >>
> >> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
> >
> >Major difference though, Blacks, Irish, and Asians don't have 1400 years
> >history of persecuting Jews. That aspect of Islamic history alone should
> >make Jewish parents sit up and think, regardless of the current concerns
> >about terrorism.
>
> Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews,

Spinning already Andy? You didn't say Christian, you said Black, Irish and
Asian. If you meant Christian you should have said Christian Blacks, Irish
and Asians.


Fiona

J J Levin

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 7:14:37 PM12/6/05
to
"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cilbp15ti5v3ca3je...@4ax.com...

What is SSDD ??

Jay

cindys

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 7:16:25 PM12/6/05
to

"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cilbp15ti5v3ca3je...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:00:45 +0000 (UTC), "cindys"
> <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Beach Runner" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >news:Z1dlf.12359$6e....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> >> And then he can throw out the Islam and convert if he truly cared. But
> >> is that to much to hope for. I smell a rat, and hope I'm wrong.
> >-----
> >I agree with you. A few years ago, a Muslim man posted to SCJM stating
that
> >he was looking to date a Jewish girl, that he loved the Jewish religion,
> >that he even wanted to convert to Judaism! Then, we scratched the surface
> >and found he basically knew zilch about the religion he claimed he
*loved*
> >so much. One of the other posters told me (via e-mail) that it is not
> >unusual for Muslims who are involved in clandestine activities to
> >specifically seek Jewish wives as a cover.
>
> Is there an actual cite for the above assertion?

Did you see where I wrote the conversation took place in e-mail? With
respect to the original posting, the guy included a weblink to his
photograph and everything. I'm sure I'm not the only person who remembers.

>
> I ask because it really goes against common sense. Intermarraige is
> controversial in the Jewish community in ways it isn't in other US
> populations, so why risk drawing attention to yourself by stirring
> controversy. A Muslim is a Muslim, even with a Jewish wife.
>
> Furthermore, given what might happen to a Muslim non-citizen even
> remotely suspected of terrorist ties or inclinations, such an
> assertion is even more dangerous than 50s-era red-baiting.
>
> I write this as opposed to intermarriage as anyone here. But I've seen
> what happens when parents lie or go too far in their opposition.

Oh, please! But thank you for exemplifying the liberal, Western, secular,
open-minded perspective on the matter. If the Jewish community/father of the
girl who was going to *marry* the Muslim in my town had your approach, she
would be married to the Muslim right now, living who knows what kind of
life? This way, she is happy living in Israel and enlisted in the IDF.

>My
> sister became engaged to a Catholic back in '69.

Not the same thing.

>My parents stood
> firm, my mother in particular. Her reward was never to see her
> daughter again and to die never having seen either of her halachically
> Jewish grandchildren.
>
> My parents were right about my sister's fiancee being a bum (though
> this didn't necessarily have anything to do with his religion). But so
> what? She had to see it for herself. Expelling her from their lives

And I guess I missed the part where I suggested the OP should "expel" her
daughter from her life. In fact, I told the OP she probably wouldn't be able
to control the situation and to be prepared to pick up the pieces. She can
be supportive of her daughter while still trying to discourage the marriage.
The purpose of my response (and other people's responses) was to educate the
woman regarding the Muslim view of the situation and not to jump to any
conclusions regarding this man, that just because he seems "nice" doesn't
mean that he really is so "nice." I pointed out the obvious (that actions
speak louder than words). If the guy holds as much contempt for Islam as he
claims, why is he still a Muslim? And even if he is telling the truth, just
because he has rejected Islam doesn't mean that his parents and siblings
have. What kind of life would that be? Wife-beating is seen as completely
normal in that society as is the subservience of women. Even if the guy is
not sticking his tuches in the air 5 times a day, he was raised with a
certain mentality. And if there is a divorce, and there are children
involved, the children could be kidnapped, taken to an Arab country. The
*halachically Jewish* grandchildren may never be seen again. And don't
assume it couldn't happen. Noncustodial parents (of many ethnic groups) do
kidnap children, even in the USA. Most of the missing kids whose pictures
appear on milk cartons have been kidnapped by noncustodial parents.

> changed nothing, and probably made things worse, because once my
> sister woke up and smelled the coffee she had nowhere to go, nobody to
> turn to.

See above.


>
> I think your friend's family is very lucky. It's not a typical
> situation when a young woman seems to say, If I miss my flight I'll
> marry this Muslim dude, otherwise I'll go to Israel and join the IDF.

>
> I'm sure it wasn't that simple, but my point is that she could just
> have easily have resented their actions and re-doubled her efforts to
> be with her fiancee.
>
> >My Israeli friend's son was a student at George Washington University.
His
> >roommates were Muslim. My neighbor wanted him to move out. Her son
refused,
> >insisting that they were really nice guys who wouldn't hurt a fly. My
> >neighbor was beside herself with worry. She phoned the dean and got her
> >son's room changed. She told me that Americans just don't get it. We have
a
> >certain western mentality that we abide by and Christians generally also
> >abide by, and we like to assume that all people are basically good unless
we
> >find out otherwise. We try to be open-minded. We don't want anyone to
label
> >us as "racist" or "intolerant." But as one of my friends likes to say "If
> >you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out." This is your daughter
> >that you're talking about. Do you want to take a chance with this?
>
> This really doesn't say anything about the Muslim roommates (were they
> even Arabs, or Middle Easterners?).

It doesn't matter. That's the point.

>If you heard about a gentile
> mother doing the same because *her* son had Jewish roommates would you
> cite it as an example of Jewish perfidy and lack of shared values?

It wasn't about lack of shared values. The woman was afraid for her son's
life.

>
> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it.

Not the ones that I know. And your implication below that I am being
prejudiced and intolerant is exactly what I was talking about in my previous
post about "open-minded" Americans, as some of the Israelis on this
newsgroup could no doubt point out.

>At least
> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
> Asians, etc...

I stand by what I said. It's not the same. The Muslim attitude toward the
role of women and the raising and religion of the children is a fact, not a
prejudice.


>
> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(

Not in America, they're not.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.


Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 9:14:31 PM12/6/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:00:45 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
<fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Sorry. I thought the "etc" made it clear that I was not being
specific, but merely citing examples of other
religious/ethnic/national groups about whom prejudices have been held.

I think my point holds, however. By and large we get along with
Christians today. A Jew need not regard Christianity per se as grounds
for suspicion. That hasn't always been the case.

Andy Katz

Patricia Heil

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 9:20:44 PM12/6/05
to

"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:%C7lf.7020$ME5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

Agreed. It's just the first hurdle.

fla...@verizon.net

unread,
Dec 6, 2005, 9:22:28 PM12/6/05
to

And what Andy seems to be DELIBERATELY missing is that Blacks,
Irish & Asians "etc." can be JEWISH, which is the real point, here.

Susan

maxine in ri

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 12:05:44 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:14:37 +0000 (UTC), "J J Levin"
<jjl...@optonline.net> connected the dots and wrote:

~> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
~>
~> Andy Katz
~
~
~
~What is SSDD ??
~
~Jay

Same Stuff Different Day (switch "tuff" with "hit" and it's most
likely what Andy meant.

maxine in ri

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 12:06:50 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:16:25 +0000 (UTC), "cindys"
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>> Is there an actual cite for the above assertion?
>
>Did you see where I wrote the conversation took place in e-mail? With
>respect to the original posting, the guy included a weblink to his
>photograph and everything. I'm sure I'm not the only person who remembers.

My question stands: Is there evidence beyond assertion that Muslim men
courting Jewish women do so for clandestine reasons?

>> I write this as opposed to intermarriage as anyone here. But I've seen
>> what happens when parents lie or go too far in their opposition.
>
>Oh, please! But thank you for exemplifying the liberal, Western, secular,
>open-minded perspective on the matter. If the Jewish community/father of the
>girl who was going to *marry* the Muslim in my town had your approach, she
>would be married to the Muslim right now, living who knows what kind of
>life? This way, she is happy living in Israel and enlisted in the IDF.

I suppose it's impossible to imagine a child so enraged by her
parent's manipulation that rather than *consider* marrying outside her
faith, she actually does so, just to prove she can.

No. Children never marry just to prove their independence.

I've seen it happen. Would you have me remain silent?

> >My
>> sister became engaged to a Catholic back in '69.
>
>Not the same thing.

No? It's still intermarraige.

>>My parents stood
>> firm, my mother in particular. Her reward was never to see her
>> daughter again and to die never having seen either of her halachically
>> Jewish grandchildren.
>>
>> My parents were right about my sister's fiancee being a bum (though
>> this didn't necessarily have anything to do with his religion). But so
>> what? She had to see it for herself. Expelling her from their lives
>
>And I guess I missed the part where I suggested the OP should "expel" her
>daughter from her life. In fact, I told the OP she probably wouldn't be able
>to control the situation and to be prepared to pick up the pieces. She can
>be supportive of her daughter while still trying to discourage the marriage.

Cindy, that's fine. Really.

I didn't miss anything. Try and understand that not everything I write
is in direct response to *your* situation or example. Some of it is
more general. We've been down this road before: no single poster sets
the parameters of the discussion.

>The purpose of my response (and other people's responses) was to educate the
>woman regarding the Muslim view of the situation and not to jump to any
>conclusions regarding this man, that just because he seems "nice" doesn't
>mean that he really is so "nice." I pointed out the obvious (that actions
>speak louder than words). If the guy holds as much contempt for Islam as he
>claims, why is he still a Muslim? And even if he is telling the truth, just
>because he has rejected Islam doesn't mean that his parents and siblings
>have. What kind of life would that be? Wife-beating is seen as completely
>normal in that society as is the subservience of women. Even if the guy is
>not sticking his tuches in the air 5 times a day, he was raised with a
>certain mentality. And if there is a divorce, and there are children
>involved, the children could be kidnapped, taken to an Arab country. The
>*halachically Jewish* grandchildren may never be seen again. And don't
>assume it couldn't happen.

You're jumping all over my case here, Cindy, but I have to ask, are
you reading what I actually write? I just told you that my mother
(along with the rest of my family) never saw my halachically Jewish
niece and nephew. They weren't kidnnapped, but obviously I realize it
can and does happen.

>Noncustodial parents (of many ethnic groups) do
>kidnap children, even in the USA. Most of the missing kids whose pictures
>appear on milk cartons have been kidnapped by noncustodial parents.

>> This really doesn't say anything about the Muslim roommates (were they


>> even Arabs, or Middle Easterners?).
>
>It doesn't matter. That's the point.

No. No, it isn't. It's not the point at all. There is no point aside
from your neighbor's fear. Are you really presenting this story as
evidence of Muslim perfidiiousness? This is entirely about your
neighbor. It has nothing to do with any Muslim anywhere. It tells us
nothing about Muslims or Islam.

Look, her son is right, and she is wrong. Maybe what she did will play
in Israel. But not here. You can't transfer people in the United
States because you don't like their religion. Your neighbor's son,
like it or not, is preparing to live and work in the US, where, for
all practical purposes he can't judge people based on their religion.

If that's not acceptable, then she has the option of taking him back
to Israel, right?

>>If you heard about a gentile
>> mother doing the same because *her* son had Jewish roommates would you
>> cite it as an example of Jewish perfidy and lack of shared values?
>
>It wasn't about lack of shared values. The woman was afraid for her son's
>life.

How many Jewish students were assaulted or injured by their Muslim
roommates in previous academic years at that institution.

I get that your neighbor was genuinely afraid. I really do. Honest.

So what?

If I cross the street to avoid a Black man walking the opposite way
does my action make him a criminal?

>> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it.
>
>Not the ones that I know. And your implication below that I am being
>prejudiced and intolerant is exactly what I was talking about in my previous
>post about "open-minded" Americans, as some of the Israelis on this
>newsgroup could no doubt point out.

I'm not implying that you're prejudiced, Cindy.

As for the charge of being excessively open minded?

Well

I agree that intermarriage is bad thing, to be avoided wherever
possible.

I believe your friends were very lucky their plan didn't backfire.

I know that your neighbor's actions don't prove that her son's
roommates were dangerous--he was willing to judge them as individuals.
That's a quality to which we all ought to aspire.

And ... I'm completely uninterested in her assessment of Americans.

If that makes me so open minded my brains fall out, then so be it.

I'll just have to wear a hat.

>>At least
>> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
>> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
>> Asians, etc...
>
>I stand by what I said. It's not the same. The Muslim attitude toward the
>role of women and the raising and religion of the children is a fact, not a
>prejudice.

I agree. All religions have positions about the status of women and
the raising of children. Islam is no different. It also happens to be
one which I don't agree. But my feelings aren't especially relevent.

>> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
>
>Not in America, they're not.

Are you serious?

How long have you lived as a Muslim in the US, Cindy?


Andy Katz

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 1:39:19 AM12/7/05
to
amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote
>>
>>> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
>>> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
>>> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
>>> Asians, etc...
>>>
>>> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
>>
>>Major difference though, Blacks, Irish, and Asians don't have 1400 years
>>history of persecuting Jews. That aspect of Islamic history alone should
>>make Jewish parents sit up and think, regardless of the current concerns
>>about terrorism.
>
> Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews, yet I
> don't think in the example cited that the mother would have contacted
> the dean had the roomies been Seventh Day Adventists.
>
> Main point, though, is that we've heard "you don't know them like we
> know them!" before. It's been applied to many different peoples,
> ourselves included, and never once has it been validated by history.

9/11 is not "history"?

Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 1:42:43 AM12/7/05
to
amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:
>
> I'm absolutely positive that my niece and nephew would have had at
> least a decent shot at being raised with a Jewish identity had they
> and their mother not been cut out of my family's life. The loss of
> that makes me quite a bit angrier than many here would imagine.

That explains some of where you're coming from. Thanks for sharing.

BTW, do _you_ have any contact with your sister or her children?
Feel free to say MYOB.

Barbara

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 1:43:07 AM12/7/05
to
ingr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
> in college.
>
> He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
> all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
> choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
> another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.
>
> He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
> heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.

Why doesn't he have a choice as to converting to another religion, or
deciding not to practice his?

I don't know where you live, but certainly in the US, there's not a
thing that you can do to stop the marriage if your daughter wants to go
through with it. You can, however, talk with her about the
implications of the marriage. If she is accustomed to practicing her
religion, how will the marriage impact that? Even if she does not
currently practice, how would she feel about not raising her children
in a Jewish home, having a bris for a male child, etc. Has the couple
discussed these issues, and come to a conclusion? Too many people go
into marriage thinking that all of these things will simply resolve
themselves, but they don't.

I am curious, though. Are you the same Ingrid who, on March 30, 2003,
on a cross-posted thread about Rachel Corrie, stated, "On a related
note, why don't all Israelis go live in New York? After all, there are
so many of them." Google suggests that you are; just curious.

Karen Elizabeth

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 2:03:09 AM12/7/05
to
Andy Katz <amk...@earthnospamlink.net> writes:
> "Fiona Abrahami" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>Spinning already Andy? You didn't say Christian, you said Black,
>>Irish and Asian. If you meant Christian you should have said
>>Christian Blacks, Irish and Asians.
>
> Sorry. I thought the "etc" made it clear that I was not being
> specific, but merely citing examples of other
> religious/ethnic/national groups about whom prejudices have been held.
>
> I think my point holds, however. By and large we get along with
> Christians today. A Jew need not regard Christianity per se as
> grounds for suspicion. That hasn't always been the case.

_If_ it's not the case any more, it's because Christianity has
_changed_. Do you see any similar change in Islam?

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 2:05:48 AM12/7/05
to
maxine in ri <wee...@yoohoot.com> writes:
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:14:37 +0000 (UTC), "J J Levin"
> <jjl...@optonline.net> connected the dots and wrote:

Unfortunately Jay did _not_ "connect the dots" he repeated the
_whole_ post just to ask his question about the last line.
Thank _you_ maixne for showing is how it should be done.

> ~> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
> ~

> ~What is SSDD ??
> ~
> ~Jay
>
> Same Stuff Different Day (switch "tuff" with "hit" and it's most
> likely what Andy meant.

I figured out "Same" and "Different". I didn't bother with the
second "S" and "D". :-)

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 2:14:02 AM12/7/05
to
Andy Katz <amk...@earthnospamlink.net> writes:

> As for the charge of being excessively open minded?
>
> Well
>
> I agree that intermarriage is bad thing, to be avoided wherever
> possible.
>
> I believe your friends were very lucky their plan didn't backfire.
>
> I know that your neighbor's actions don't prove that her son's
> roommates were dangerous--he was willing to judge them as
> individuals. That's a quality to which we all ought to aspire.
>
> And ... I'm completely uninterested in her assessment of Americans.
>
> If that makes me so open minded my brains fall out, then so be it.
>
> I'll just have to wear a hat.

That would be a Good Idea (tm), whatever the motivation. :-)

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 2:21:31 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:14:37 +0000 (UTC), "J J Levin"
<jjl...@optonline.net> wrote:

>What is SSDD ??

Same shit, different day.

Andy Katz

fla...@verizon.net

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 2:52:35 AM12/7/05
to

On 7-Dec-2005, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

> Andy Katz <amk...@earthnospamlink.net> writes:


> > If that makes me so open minded my brains fall out, then so be it.
> >
> > I'll just have to wear a hat.
>
> That would be a Good Idea (tm), whatever the motivation. :-)

POINT!

Susan

Fiona Abrahami

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 6:26:15 AM12/7/05
to

<fla...@verizon.net> wrote

Absolutely right, Susan, I must be slipping, normally I would have picked up
on that. Particularly as I have friends in two of the three categories.


Fiona

Fiona Abrahami

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 7:13:38 AM12/7/05
to

"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthnospamlink.net> wrote


> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> Is there an actual cite for the above assertion?
> >
> >Did you see where I wrote the conversation took place in e-mail? With
> >respect to the original posting, the guy included a weblink to his
> >photograph and everything. I'm sure I'm not the only person who
remembers.
>
> My question stands: Is there evidence beyond assertion that Muslim men
> courting Jewish women do so for clandestine reasons?

Yes, but as you summarily dismiss evidence from sources you consider to be
right-wing, and anyone who says anything negative about Islam is, in your
mind, de facto right-wing, there seems to be little point in proffering said
evidence.

Nevertheless, there have been a number of high profile cases in Israel,
however you will dismiss then as being about war tactics not religion. Then
there are also cases like that of Jemima Goldsmith, where Muslims sources
never missed a chance to refer to Jemima as Jewish even though she was not
(her mother was not-Jewish). The evidence is there if you want to look, but
don't expect a Muslim to just blurt out "we like to target Jewish women for
marriage," although I know that is the only kind of evidence you will
accept.


Fiona

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:14:18 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:39:19 +0000 (UTC), mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

>amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:
>> "Fiona Abrahami" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote
>>>
>>>> Matter of fact, your neighbor's wrong. Americans do get it. At least
>>>> those of us who remember enough history to know exactly the same
>>>> things were said about us, about Blacks, about the Irish, about
>>>> Asians, etc...
>>>>
>>>> Now it's Muslims on the hotseat ... SSDD:(
>>>
>>>Major difference though, Blacks, Irish, and Asians don't have 1400 years
>>>history of persecuting Jews. That aspect of Islamic history alone should
>>>make Jewish parents sit up and think, regardless of the current concerns
>>>about terrorism.
>>
>> Sure, Fiona, but Christians have 1800 years of persecuting Jews, yet I
>> don't think in the example cited that the mother would have contacted
>> the dean had the roomies been Seventh Day Adventists.
>>
>> Main point, though, is that we've heard "you don't know them like we
>> know them!" before. It's been applied to many different peoples,
>> ourselves included, and never once has it been validated by history.
>
>9/11 is not "history"?

I don't think the WTC attacks reflect on all or even most Muslims
anymore than Oklahoma City reflects on all Christians, Moshe.

Andy Katz

ingr...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:18:11 AM12/7/05
to
[ Moderator's Comment: A discussion of a Jew marrying a non Jew is on
topic, but discussion of aspects of other religions and groups is off
topic. hw ]
I understand that I barely know you, but I'm detecting a great deal of
hostility on your part towards Muslims. Is there any negative
firsthand experience of yours that you'd be willing to share?

I am surprised by many of the responses here that would seem to
indicate that this young man might be a potential terrorist or fanatic.
In my experience, ethnicity and race have had a greater effect on a
person's character than his religion. Again, I realize that I know
very little about Islam myself, but I was always under the impression
that much of the anti-Semitism that comes from the Muslim world comes
from Arabs, which this person certainly is not.

I really should have been more descriptive in my original post, and I
apologize for that. I have met the young man's parents. His father is
a Muslim who emigrated here from Pakistan 35 years ago while his mother
is a West Indian Presbyterian who emigrated from Guyana. The two are
pillars of their local community and have been very involved in it.

Interestingly enough, I recently discovered that the mother has not
only retained her own religion, but the couple actually celebrate both
Christian and Muslim holidays, most notably Christmas, Easter and both
Eid's. I suppose that might not make the father a "true" Muslim. To
be honest, I suspect that the son is really agnostic who only appeases
his father by saying he's a Muslim. His parents very much approve of
their son's relationship with my daughter.

The only question might be that if the relationship were to develop
much further and children were involved, what would they be raised as?
I suspect that the man's father would want them to be Muslim, but it's
unlikely that this will happen, as the son knows less about Islam than
many of the people on this thread do, not to mention has little
interest in following its faiths at the moment, or any faith for that
matter. I confess to being ignorant by labeling him a Muslim, when he
clearly has no idea what his religious identity is. Perhaps it's just
as well that any potential children will be raised Jewish.

The kid's clearly one of a kind and doesn't fit the profile of a
typical Muslim, if you could even call him that. Call me left-wing and
naive, but I suppose that what matters right now is that they're happy
together.

I have wondered about the Islamic culture's barbaric attitude towards
women. From what I've seen of his parents, the father is by far the
more dominant person in the marriage, and I suspect a history of abuse
in that family given his mannerisms when dealing with his wife. And
from what the son has confided in me, I suspect that this abuse might
be the reason why this son would rather not be a Muslim if he had a
choice. I think it's a question of whether or not this person might
grow into his father's son.

fla...@verizon.net

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:21:26 AM12/7/05
to

On 7-Dec-2005, "Barbara" <mom_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> ingr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
> > in college.
> >
> > He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
> > all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
> > choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
> > another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.
> >
> > He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
> > heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.
>
> Why doesn't he have a choice as to converting to another religion, or
> deciding not to practice his?

This is what is making some here skeptical as to this young man's integrity.


>
> I don't know where you live, but certainly in the US, there's not a
> thing that you can do to stop the marriage if your daughter wants to go
> through with it. You can, however, talk with her about the
> implications of the marriage. If she is accustomed to practicing her
> religion, how will the marriage impact that? Even if she does not
> currently practice, how would she feel about not raising her children
> in a Jewish home, having a bris for a male child, etc. Has the couple
> discussed these issues, and come to a conclusion? Too many people go
> into marriage thinking that all of these things will simply resolve
> themselves, but they don't.
>
> I am curious, though. Are you the same Ingrid who, on March 30, 2003,
> on a cross-posted thread about Rachel Corrie, stated, "On a related
> note, why don't all Israelis go live in New York? After all, there are
> so many of them." Google suggests that you are; just curious.

Google doesn't save full headers, AFAIK, but it is nice to see people
keeping a watch out.

Susan

cindys

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:24:22 AM12/7/05
to

"Barbara" <mom_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133903526....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> I am curious, though. Are you the same Ingrid who, on March 30, 2003,
> on a cross-posted thread about Rachel Corrie, stated, "On a related
> note, why don't all Israelis go live in New York? After all, there are
> so many of them." Google suggests that you are; just curious.
-------
Interesting that...When I first saw this post, it struck me that if I saw
this post on SCJ unmoderated, I would assume it was a troll post as "My
daughter wants to marry a Muslim" is a common troll theme on that forum. It
was one of Paul Abeles/Abe Shanahan's favorite stories. (Thankfully, he's
been gone for a very long time). I also wondered why Ingrid hadn't followed
up any of our responses, although sometimes people like to hear what
everyone has to say before following up...At any rate, I was trying to be
dan l'kaf zechus. I'm embarassed now that I didn't do a google search before
I responded in the first place, as I really dislike wasting my time writing
lengthy responses where the poster isn't serious. Yasher koach, Karen
Elizabeth, and as Moshe would say...it still led to an interesting
discussion.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:28:17 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:42:43 +0000 (UTC), mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:

>amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:
>>
>> I'm absolutely positive that my niece and nephew would have had at
>> least a decent shot at being raised with a Jewish identity had they
>> and their mother not been cut out of my family's life. The loss of
>> that makes me quite a bit angrier than many here would imagine.
>
>That explains some of where you're coming from. Thanks for sharing.
>
>BTW, do _you_ have any contact with your sister or her children?
>Feel free to say MYOB.

I have had contact with my sister, Moshe, for the past fifteen years.
I've never met her kids, however, and until about three years ago she
had been cut of their lives herself--I still don't know all of the
details, but it's one of things that probably wouldn't have happened
if she'd had family support of her own.

Gradually, however, things are improving. She has grandkids and she's
seen them. There is hope for the future.

Andy Katz

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:34:33 AM12/7/05
to

You guys did notice the "etc" at the end of that sentence, right? I
was listing people who've been targets of prejudice, particularly of
the "you don't know them like *we* know them!" variety. I might just
have easily listed "Jews, Quakers, Mormons" etc..

Andy Katz

Steve Goldfarb

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:42:55 AM12/7/05
to

Of course it does -- the World Trade Center was attacked specifically as a
Muslim act (in retaliation for our "defilement" of Saudi Arabia,
apparently) while the Oklahama City bombing was in retaliation for Waco
(according to McVeigh himself, see
http://www.digital-exp.com/doco/TimothyMcVeigh.html) - although McVeigh
might be a Christian (I assume so, don't know) he didn't do it AS a
Christian.

--s
--

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:47:38 AM12/7/05
to

Indeed, it is.

Why worry over the source?

Andy Katz
____________________________________________
"There's more to being a Jew than jewelry!"

Charlotte York, "Sex & The City"

The Simpsons

Bastard Nation
http://www.bastards.org

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 9:54:55 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:13:38 +0000 (UTC), "Fiona Abrahami"
<fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> My question stands: Is there evidence beyond assertion that Muslim men
>> courting Jewish women do so for clandestine reasons?
>
>Yes, but as you summarily dismiss evidence from sources you consider to be
>right-wing, and anyone who says anything negative about Islam is, in your
>mind, de facto right-wing, there seems to be little point in proffering said
>evidence.
>
>Nevertheless, there have been a number of high profile cases in Israel,
>however you will dismiss then as being about war tactics not religion. Then
>there are also cases like that of Jemima Goldsmith, where Muslims sources
>never missed a chance to refer to Jemima as Jewish even though she was not
>(her mother was not-Jewish). The evidence is there if you want to look, but
>don't expect a Muslim to just blurt out "we like to target Jewish women for
>marriage," although I know that is the only kind of evidence you will
>accept.

Well, let's keep in mind the key term "clandestine". I'm sure there
are propaganda unions in which Jews (or people with Jewish-sounding
surnames) are subverted into marrying outside the faith. Those are the
opposite of what I was asking about.

And yes, if a marriage did take place for the purposes of concealing
potential terror activities, it would be a war tactic. Certainly. What
else?

But I reiterate, intermarraige is controversial in the Jewish
community. If I'm an al Qaeda operative why don't I seek out an
American or British Muslim and marry her? I get the benefits and none
of the flak. I don't assume that a Muslim man, particularly an Arab,
escapes scrunity simply because he might be married to a Jew.

Furthermore you doubtless recall the suggestion one poster made to
denounce a Muslim suitor as a terror suspect as a means of derailing
the relationship. If someone who doesn't even know the parties is
willing to take that step, just imagine the lengths the woman's family
might be willing to go.

It just doesn't fly. And when something goes against common sense it's
reasonable to ask for solid evidence before accepting it as true.

cindys

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 10:33:56 AM12/7/05
to

"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:datdp1ds3qul3tu8f...@4ax.com...
----
Why does anybody resent trolls? Because no wants to be made a fool of. Maybe
it doesn't bother you if a troll starts a flame war and we all start arguing
while meanwhile he/she is having a good laugh at our expense. But it does
bother most people. That having been said, Ingrid does not seem to be a
troll and her follow-up indicates that she's completely sincere.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Damien Sullivan

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 12:41:06 PM12/7/05
to
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:

>> Main point, though, is that we've heard "you don't know them like we
>> know them!" before. It's been applied to many different peoples,
>> ourselves included, and never once has it been validated by history.
>
>9/11 is not "history"?

No, it's current events. :)

But seriously, 9/11 validates Arab Muslims being a threat in much the same
way that Alan Greenspan validates Jews being world-controlling bankers.

-xx- Damien X-)

Steve Goldfarb

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 12:57:46 PM12/7/05
to

If 9/11 were the only terrorist attack ever, and Alan Greenspan was the
only world-controlling banker ever, then you'd have a point. But since
neither is true, you don't.

--s

>-xx- Damien X-)
--

fla...@verizon.net

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Dec 7, 2005, 1:00:34 PM12/7/05
to

On 7-Dec-2005, pho...@ofb.net (Damien Sullivan) wrote:

>
> But seriously, 9/11 validates Arab Muslims being a threat in much the same
> way that Alan Greenspan validates Jews being world-controlling bankers.

Are you trying to say that 9/11 was an isolated act of Islamofascism?
Or are you trying to say that all Muslims are not like that?

Susan

mos...@mm.huji.ac.il

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 1:21:41 PM12/7/05
to
"Jackie" <jcapp...@knology.net> writes:
> <ingr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>> My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
>> in college.
>>
>> He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
>> all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
>> choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
>> another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.
>>
>> He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
>> heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.
>
> I have, My son-in-law, Adam is Muslim. He is good to my daughter and their
> children; a devoted father and husband. But what I find most commendable
> about him is a discussion he had with his father in which he said. "Tanya
> is my wife and she is Jewish and my children are therefore Jewish and I too
> may decide to become Jewish."
> He was very upset by the fact that, after 9/11 Muslims who condemned the
> attack also added that it was understandable in view of the situation in the
> Middle East.

So it seems your son-in-law is the kind of Muslim that Andy is talking
about. But would you consider him the norm? Should the OP _expect_ to
find another one like that?

Giora Drachsler

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 4:01:47 PM12/7/05
to
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:%C7lf.7020$ME5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

>
>> > My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
>> > in college.
>> >
>> > He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
>> > all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
>> > choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
>> > another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.
>> >
>> > He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
>> > heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.
>>
>>
>> Meet the family. If he doesn't want you to, get Cindy's opinion. There
>> was
>> a long thread about a situation that turned out well for the girl and
>> probably saved her from big trouble.
>
> The situation turned out well for the girl because God was watching over
> her. She was planning to go to Israel to join the IDF...or at least that
> was
> what she told everyone. Actually, her *fiance* was planning to meet her at
> Newark Airport (or JFK) and they were going to sneak away together before
> she could board her connecting flight to Israel. Then, they would marry.
> The
> plot was discovered because she had confided it to a friend who decided to
> phone the rabbi of her synagogue and spill the beans. The rabbi notified
> her
> father and other community members.
>
> A family friend had bought the ticket to fly her from our city to Newark
> (it
> was supposed to be a going away present). He had bought the ticket on a
> credit card. After he heard what she had in mind (at the proverbial 11th
> hour), he managed to cancel the ticket while she was en route to the
> airport. Since she didn't have any money to buy her own ticket, she was
> forced to return home. The flight was rescheduled for a few days later,
> and
> it was decided that this time, her father would fly with her to Newark and
> not leave her side until she boarded El Al. The family friend had wired
> money to Israel that she would not be able to access until she arrived in
> Israel. Her father ensured that she would be traveling essentially without
> cash (to preempt her leaving the Newark airport in a taxi to meet her
> *fiance*).
>
> Meanwhile, her fiance had the chutzpah to phone her brother on his cell
> phone to find out what time was the girl's flight to Israel. Her brother
> told him that her flight had already left and that she was already en
> route
> to Israel. At the time of the phone call, the girl was actually still on
> the
> ground in New York. To make a long story short, the girl did get on the
> flight to Israel and did in fact enter the IDF. She came home to visit her
> father this past spring and said she was very happy. The fiance was
> thankfully never heard from again.
>
>>Not saying that's the case here, but
>> anybody who doesn't want your daughter to meet their family or spend time
>> with yours is probably not a good prospect.
>
> Agreed. But even if he is willing to let her daughter meet his family and
> spend time with hers, it doesn't mean anything. In the situation I
> described, the Muslim fiance had had several lengthy conversations with
> the
> girl's father in which he had convinced the girl's father that he was a
> very
> nice guy. Except what he really had in mind was to use her to become an
> American citizen, so that his family in Egypt could immigrate to the USA
> and
> get their green cards. My Israeli friend tells me that a number of Jewish
> women live in Gaza who married Arabs. Many of them are miserable.
> Sometimes,
> they are able to escape from their husbands and come back to Israel, often
> without their children, to live lives of misery. Maybe the OP should ask
> some of the Israeli posters for their input about this situation. I
> already
> cited Fiona, who used to live in Israel.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.


Although there are mixed marriages here, they are only a handful. That's
the good thing in Israel - everyone is Jewish. Add to that the extended
gene pool, and you'll understand why it's the best place on earth to make
and raise children. Although living among Jews only has its difficulties,
when all things considered, it's only positive.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel


cindys

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 4:22:16 PM12/7/05
to

"Giora Drachsler" <gi...@huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:dn6bcr$amk$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...

>
> Although there are mixed marriages here, they are only a handful. That's
> the good thing in Israel - everyone is Jewish. Add to that the extended
> gene pool, and you'll understand why it's the best place on earth to make
> and raise children. Although living among Jews only has its difficulties,
> when all things considered, it's only positive.
--------
What is life like for Jewish women in Israel who are *married* to Muslim
men? Do they live good lives? Are they happy?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Damien Sullivan

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 5:24:59 PM12/7/05
to
"Barbara" <mom_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>ingr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> My 24 year old has been dating a 26 year old law student that she met
>> in college.
>>
>> He was born and raised here and doesn't seem to be ver religious at
>> all. In fact, he told me that he actually hates Islam and if he had a
>> choice, he would choose to convert! They seem very devoted to one
>> another. I prefer that she marry one of her own, but she seems happy.
>>
>> He seems like a good guy, but I'm not so sure how to react. I've never
>> heard of any Jewish-Muslim marriages.
>
>Why doesn't he have a choice as to converting to another religion, or
>deciding not to practice his?

Perhaps for the reason that some atheists/agnostics I know do not openly
renounce Catholicism, for fear of upsetting their parents.

-xx- Damien X-)

Andy Katz

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 6:06:09 PM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 15:33:56 +0000 (UTC), "cindys"
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>> Indeed, it is.
>>
>> Why worry over the source?
>----
>Why does anybody resent trolls? Because no wants to be made a fool of. Maybe
>it doesn't bother you if a troll starts a flame war and we all start arguing
>while meanwhile he/she is having a good laugh at our expense. But it does
>bother most people.

Even if she were a troll the OP simply proposed a topic. What happens
after that is the responsibility of those replying to it.

While healthy disagreement informs this thread, I don't see anything
here that resembles a flame war.

>That having been said, Ingrid does not seem to be a
>troll and her follow-up indicates that she's completely sincere.

Dare I simply agree with the above...;-)

Fiona Abrahami

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 6:42:57 PM12/7/05
to

"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote