Leftwing anti-semitism
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left. Wonder
if it was just due to Jews having become more success (thus no longer
victims). Or was it due to Israel (strong anti western attitudes
among the leftists, blame Europe and America for colonialism and
exploitation). Just remember that the left is now more about being
progressive and less about collectivism. Here are some of the results
Good listing of sources
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/
What is left anti-semitism?
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041
Why Left Wing Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-left-wing-anti-zionism-is-anti.html
Left-wing anti-Semitism isn't news
Covers the various code words: neo-con, anti-Zionist, etc
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100009505/left-wing-anti-semitism-isnt-news/
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/03/31/oops-media-forgot-to-cover-left-wing-anti-semitism/
New antisemitism:
New antisemitism is the name of the concept that a new form of
antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries,
emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-
right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the
State of Israel.
The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be
criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in
fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged
international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an
increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such
demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic
beliefs.[citation needed]
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism,
anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel, or
double standards applied to its conduct, may be linked to
antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.[1]
Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with
antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and
demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and
exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
European Anti-Americanism and Anti-Semitism: Similarities and
Differences
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-16.htm
Articles on Left-wing Anti-Semitism
One of the most disappointing trends in the past several decades has
been the enthusiasm of many far left currents and organizations for
Third World dictators, right-wing jihadi theocrats, and other such
enemies of bearable human societies. I cannot help but recall that it
was policies like this by the American government that in my youth
drew me to the left in revulsion. The lodestone of this politics is a
compass that always points to the United States as the preeminent evil
in the world. Running a close second, however, is an obsessive hatred
of Israel and by extension the great majority of the comparatively
small number of Jews left on the planet, who are sympathetic to the
Jewish state. To say this will immediately elicit the outcry, "You
supporters of Israel just brand anybody who criticizes Israel as an
anti-Semite to stifle any discussion of Israel's crimes."
http://www.shaggyman.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67:articles-on-left-wing-anti-semitism&catid=39:blog&Itemid=73
http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000316.htm
We have heard a lot about fighting antisemitism a long time ago and
far away. I wish to turn to events closer to home.
Antisemitism within the UCU started to become a serious problem when
people in the union began to support the campaign to boycott Israeli
universities, but no other universities in the world. This campaign
has dominated academic union Congresses in 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007,
2008 and 2009.
Normally trade unionists aim to make links with other trade unionists
across international boundaries. Normally academics make links with
other academics in other countries. But in our union Israelis have
been treated differently. Instead of seeking to work with Israeli
colleagues for peace and against bigotry, the dominant faction in our
union has tried again and again to exclude Israelis from our
community.
Since 2003 it has become clear that antisemitic ways of thinking and
antisemitic practices have been imported into our union alongside this
campaign to punish Israeli academics.
http://www.eisca.eu/category/resources/left-wing-antisemitism/
Academic Anti-Semitism In Britain
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/30/opinion/main1665565.shtml
Academic anti-Semitism conference
http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1722_academic_anti_semiti.htm
http://www.h-net.org/announce/show.cgi?ID=184739
Global Academic Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israelism
•The academic year 2007-2008 saw ongoing anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic
incidents in various countries. Among them is Israel Apartheid Week,
which has become an annual ritual in a number of cities on several
continents. So have the calls of the University and College Union
(UCU) in the United Kingdom for discriminatory measures against
Israeli universities and academics. In several universities, such as
on some campuses of the University of California, anti-Israelism is
endemic.
•Much of the visible anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism occurs in the
academic world of Britain, Canada, and the United States. There are
problems in many other countries as well. The situation is obfuscated
by limited media attention.
•Effective counteractions are also increasing. There is now more
exposure of Islamist racism and anti-Semitism on American campuses. In
Canada protests against anti-Israeli actions are on the rise. There
are also European and British initiatives to enhance academic
collaboration with Israeli universities. External monitoring bodies
are more and more exposing the hate culture and biased actions of some
university lecturers.
•The onslaught against Israel and Jews is not an isolated phenomenon.
What happens to Jews has usually been a pointer to their societal
environment and a sensor of events to come. This is also the case
regarding academic anti-Israelism. Academic freedom has been abused so
much that in its present form it has outlived part of its academic and
societal usefulness for fostering knowledge.
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=2518&TTL=2007-2008:_Another_Year_of_Global_Academic_Anti-Semitism_and_Anti-Israelism
NORWEGIAN ACADEMIC: NORWAY IS THE MOST ANTI-SEMITIC COUNTRY IN THE
WEST…….
Jews no longer welcome in Norway.....
http://tundratabloids.com/2011/05/norwegian-academic-norway-is-the-most-anti-semitic-country-in-the-west.html
http://philosemitism.blogspot.com/2011/05/norwegian-academic-norway-is-most-anti.html
Antisemitism: The Power of Myth - Academic Freedom
http://www.facinghistory.org/node/241
Israeli academic boycott is 'anti-Semitic', says Harvard president
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/702d69f2-f10b-11da-9338-0000779e2340.html#axzz1NC6RYtvR
I barely covered the artilces. There is a lot more ......
cindys
wrote:
> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
get more of the same. This post has got to be the mother of all
something, but I'm not sure exactly what.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
> Wonder
> if it was just due to Jews having become more success (thus no longer
> victims). Or was it due to Israel (strong anti western attitudes
> among the leftists, blame Europe and America for colonialism and
> exploitation). Just remember that the left is now more about being
> progressive and less about collectivism. Here are some of the results
>
> Good listing of sourceshttp://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.htmlhttp://www.paulbogdanor.com/
>
> What is left anti-semitism?http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041
>
> Why Left Wing Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitismhttp://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-left-wing-anti-zionism-is...
>
> Left-wing anti-Semitism isn't news
> Covers the various code words: neo-con, anti-Zionist, etchttp://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100009505/left-wing-an...
>
> http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/03/31/oops-media-forgot-to-cover-lef...
>
> New antisemitism:
> New antisemitism is the name of the concept that a new form of
> antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries,
> emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-
> right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the
> State of Israel.
>
> The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be
> criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in
> fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged
> international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an
> increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such
> demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic
> beliefs.[citation needed]
>
> Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism,
> anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel, or
> double standards applied to its conduct, may be linked to
> antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.[1]
>
> Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with
> antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and
> demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and
> exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
>
> European Anti-Americanism and Anti-Semitism: Similarities and
> Differenceshttp://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-16.htm
>
> Articles on Left-wing Anti-Semitism
> One of the most disappointing trends in the past several decades has
> been the enthusiasm of many far left currents and organizations for
> Third World dictators, right-wing jihadi theocrats, and other such
> enemies of bearable human societies. I cannot help but recall that it
> was policies like this by the American government that in my youth
> drew me to the left in revulsion. The lodestone of this politics is a
> compass that always points to the United States as the preeminent evil
> in the world. Running a close second, however, is an obsessive hatred
> of Israel and by extension the great majority of the comparatively
> small number of Jews left on the planet, who are sympathetic to the
> Jewish state. To say this will immediately elicit the outcry, "You
> supporters of Israel just brand anybody who criticizes Israel as an
> anti-Semite to stifle any discussion of Israel's crimes."http://www.shaggyman.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id...
>
> http://www.antipasministries.com/html/file0000316.htm
>
> We have heard a lot about fighting antisemitism a long time ago and
> far away. I wish to turn to events closer to home.
>
> Antisemitism within the UCU started to become a serious problem when
> people in the union began to support the campaign to boycott Israeli
> universities, but no other universities in the world. This campaign
> has dominated academic union Congresses in 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007,
> 2008 and 2009.
>
> Normally trade unionists aim to make links with other trade unionists
> across international boundaries. Normally academics make links with
> other academics in other countries. But in our union Israelis have
> been treated differently. Instead of seeking to work with Israeli
> colleagues for peace and against bigotry, the dominant faction in our
> union has tried again and again to exclude Israelis from our
> community.
>
> Since 2003 it has become clear that antisemitic ways of thinking and
> antisemitic practices have been imported into our union alongside this
> campaign to punish Israeli academics.http://www.eisca.eu/category/resources/left-wing-antisemitism/
>
> Academic Anti-Semitism In Britainhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/30/opinion/main1665565.shtml
>
> Academic anti-Semitism conferencehttp://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1722_academic_anti_semiti.htmhttp://www.h-net.org/announce/show.cgi?ID=184739
> societal usefulness for fostering knowledge.http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1...
>
> NORWEGIAN ACADEMIC: NORWAY IS THE MOST ANTI-SEMITIC COUNTRY IN THE
> WEST…….
> Jews no longer welcome in Norway.....http://tundratabloids.com/2011/05/norwegian-academic-norway-is-the-mo...http://philosemitism.blogspot.com/2011/05/norwegian-academic-norway-i...
>
> Antisemitism: The Power of Myth - Academic Freedomhttp://www.facinghistory.org/node/241
>
> Israeli academic boycott is 'anti-Semitic', says Harvard presidenthttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/702d69f2-f10b-11da-9338-0000779e2340.h...
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> wrote:> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> > semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
>
> ----
> Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> get more of the same. This post has got to be the mother of all
> something, but I'm not sure exactly what.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
>
>
> > Wonder
> > if it was just due to Jews having become more success (thus no longer
> > victims). Or was it due to Israel (strong anti western attitudes
> > among the leftists, blame Europe and America for colonialism and
> > exploitation). Just remember that the left is now more about being
> > progressive and less about collectivism. Here are some of the results
>
>
> > Antisemitism: The Power of Myth - Academic Freedomhttp://www.facinghistory.org/node/241
>
> > Israeli academic boycott is 'anti-Semitic', says Harvard presidenthttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/702d69f2-f10b-11da-9338-0000779e2340.h...
>
Did you read any of the links? Most were folks who have leftist views
and are alarmed over the trend in their own ranks. Many of the
sources are mainstream, not fringe.
What about Phyllis Chester? How much of an extremist is she? Yet she
is upset at the anti semitism on the left and within academia.
Here is her bio:
Phyllis Chesler, Ph.D is an Emerita Professor of Psychology and
Women's Studies at City University of New York. She is an author,
psychotherapist and an expert courtroom witness. She has lectured and
organized political, legal, religious and human rights campaigns in
the United States and in Canada, Europe, the Middle East and the Far
East. A popular guest on campuses and in national and international
print, television, radio and online media, she has been an expert
commentator on the major events of our time. She has lived in Kabul,
Afghanistan, and in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. She currently resides in
Manhattan.
This is about her book "The New Anti Semitism". Look at who reviewed,
most are very acceptable folks.
http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/books/the-new-anti-semitism
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
>> ----
>> Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
>> antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
>> rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>> get more of the same. This post has got to be the mother of all
>> something, but I'm not sure exactly what.
I was going to ask you Cindy, if your knee doesn't hurt from the
constant jerking at every post Shmaryahu writes. But I see he
answered you quite well. Of course, it would have been much better
had he snipped some of the old stuff.
snip
> Did you read any of the links? Most were folks who have leftist
> views and are alarmed over the trend in their own ranks. Many
> of the sources are mainstream, not fringe.
>
> What about Phyllis Chester? How much of an extremist is she? Yet
> she is upset at the anti semitism on the left and within academia.
>
> Here is her bio:
>
> Phyllis Chesler, Ph.D is an Emerita Professor of Psychology and
> Women's Studies at City University of New York. She is an author,
> psychotherapist and an expert courtroom witness. She has lectured and
> organized political, legal, religious and human rights campaigns in
> the United States and in Canada, Europe, the Middle East and the Far
> East. A popular guest on campuses and in national and international
> print, television, radio and online media, she has been an expert
> commentator on the major events of our time. She has lived in Kabul,
> Afghanistan, and in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. She currently resides in
> Manhattan.
>
> This is about her book "The New Anti Semitism". Look at who reviewed,
> most are very acceptable folks.
> http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/books/the-new-anti-semitism
WOW, there are _lots_ of great testimonials and reviews there.
Thanks Shmaryahu for the site.
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
>> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
>----
>Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
>antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
>rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>get more of the same.
He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
too. For him it's just a means to bash the leftwing. His loyalty to
the right seems stronger than his loyalty to Jews.
> This post has got to be the mother of all
>something, but I'm not sure exactly what.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
cindys
> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> >> > semitism. =A0I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
> >> ----
> >> Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> >> antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> >> rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> >> get more of the same. This post has got to be the mother of all
> >> something, but I'm not sure exactly what.
>
> I was going to ask you Cindy, if your knee doesn't hurt from the
> constant jerking at every post Shmaryahu writes. But I see he
> answered you quite well. Of course, it would have been much better
> had he snipped some of the old stuff.
My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>
> snip
>
> WOW, there are _lots_ of great testimonials and reviews there.
You completely missed the point, but Meir got it in one. The only goal
here is that Shmaryahu is trying to villify this so-called "leftwing,"
which to his mind includes any and every social issue, person, event
that has occurred over the last 50 years that he personally dislikes.
It includes: Gay people, feminists, the USSR, secularism, gun control,
and environmentalism, just to name a few. Antisemitism is not a
rightwing/leftwing thing, but bringing it into the picture provides a
convenient excuse for posting a bunch of hysterical rightwing
propaganda on SCJM. Again, it's really all about this imaginery
"leftwing agenda." There are no shortage of rightwing, conservative
antisemites, beginning with Pat Buchanan and the KKK.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> writes:
>> > cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
>> >> ----
>> >> Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
>> >> antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
>> >> rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>> >> get more of the same. This post has got to be the mother of all
>> >> something, but I'm not sure exactly what.
>>
>> I was going to ask you Cindy, if your knee doesn't hurt from the
>> constant jerking at every post Shmaryahu writes. But I see he
>> answered you quite well. Of course, it would have been much better
>> had he snipped some of the old stuff.
>
> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
LOL! "Some are more equal than others". :-)
>> snip
>> WOW, there are _lots_ of great testimonials and reviews there.
>
> You completely missed the point, but Meir got it in one. The only goal
> here is that Shmaryahu is trying to villify this so-called "leftwing,"
> which to his mind includes any and every social issue, person, event
> that has occurred over the last 50 years that he personally dislikes.
> It includes: Gay people, feminists, the USSR, secularism, gun control,
> and environmentalism, just to name a few. Antisemitism is not a
> rightwing/leftwing thing, but bringing it into the picture provides a
> convenient excuse for posting a bunch of hysterical rightwing
> propaganda on SCJM. Again, it's really all about this imaginery
> "leftwing agenda." There are no shortage of rightwing, conservative
> antisemites, beginning with Pat Buchanan and the KKK.
Or perhaps, I ignored the point you dislike (and I don't particularly
care for either) and managed to find a redeeming feature.
sheldonlg
> cindys<cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
>> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>
> LOL! "Some are more equal than others". :-)
I think you, kosher Moshe, are quoting a pig. :-)
--
Shelly
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I wish more people were familiar with George Orwell's farmyard.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
> >----
> >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> >get more of the same.
>
> He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
> More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
> something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
> too. For him it's just a means to bash the leftwing. His loyalty to
> the right seems stronger than his loyalty to Jews.
>
No, it is that too many Jews are more loyal to leftist thought than to
HaShem. Politics is their religion.
Too many of you will point out every little "potential" anti semitism
while ignoring the growing anti-semitism on the left. What I posted
here was a growing body of articles on how the left is turning against
Jews in favor of Muslims.
I am well aware of those on the right who are clueless and careless
about their comments towards Jews. It is mostly in their lack of
understanding. But what we are seeing on the left is far more
dangerous.
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> cindys<cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>>> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
>>>> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>>>
>>> LOL! "Some are more equal than others". :-)
>>
>> I think you, kosher Moshe, are quoting a pig. :-)
>
> I wish more people were familiar with George Orwell's farmyard.
In high school four books made a great impression on me.
One was "Animal Farm" which showed how Communism was essentially a farce
and that it was Capitalism that drove the world.
A second was "1984" which (1) made me ever wary of "Big Brother", (2)
showed how those in power could rewrite history and (3) to be constantly
vigilant of our personal freedoms.
A third was "Brave New World" that showed that the essence of being
human was a striving. Utopia is not for humans because then we become
little better that other animals. Better to live as one of "the savages".
The fourth was "Candide". I guess we live in "the best of all possible
worlds". Again, Utopia is a personal goal, not a desired end result.
To this list I will add one I read in college, "Atlas Shrugged". We
should all be evaluated on how much of our personal abilities we put
into an effort and that not everyone has the same native ability.
--
Shelly
cindys
snip
>
> The fourth was "Candide". I guess we live in "the best of all possible
> worlds". Again, Utopia is a personal goal, not a desired end result.
----
'Cela est bien dit,' répondit Candide, 'mais il faut cultiver notre
jardin.'
:-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
wrote:
snip
>
> No, it is that too many Jews are more loyal to leftist thought than to
> HaShem. Politics is their religion.
Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that politics is
*your* religion. The majority of what you post on SCJM is all about
leftwing conspiracy theories and has a tenuous connection to Judaism,
at best.
>
> Too many of you
Who exactly is this "you?"
>will point out every little "potential" anti semitism
> while ignoring the growing anti-semitism on the left.
That's right. Rational people are not caught up in your leftwing
conspiracy fantasy world. The majority of us understand that
antisemitism is an issue unto itself and cuts across many different
groups and ideologies. Rational people do not extrapolate that every
instance of antisemitism derives from feminism, environmentalism, gun
control, homosexuality, Watergate, secularism, the USSR, drug use, the
kitchen sink, and everything else in this weird contrived "leftwing
conspiracy" fantasy world the extreme right has invented and you seem
to have totally embraced. The only thing that's been missing in your
posts are references to the Bilderberg group.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is "ou et? and
"merci".
--
Shelly
Joe Bruno
> On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
> >----
> >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> >get more of the same.
>
> He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
And the distinction there is...............................??????
> More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
> something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
> too. For him it's just a means to bash the leftwing. His loyalty to
> the right seems stronger than his loyalty to Jews.
"Loyalty to the right"??????????????????
That's a novel concept to me. I'm a Conservative Republican who
disliked Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon.
Since you now cannot use me as an example, who else did you have in
mind?
>
>
Joe Bruno
> >> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
I think it significant that the material that molded your views was
all fictional.
Henry Goodman
news:irgn0m$mlg$1...@dont-email.me...
--
Shelly
_______________________________________
"That is well spoken" replied Candide "but we must cultivate our garden".
Don't they teach French in American schools?
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
sheldonlg
> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is "ou et? and
> "merci".
>
> --
> Shelly
> _______________________________________
> "That is well spoken" replied Candide "but we must cultivate our garden".
>
> Don't they teach French in American schools?
Yes, they do. They also teach Spanish and other languages. I chose
Spanish.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is "ou et? and
>> "merci".
>>
>> --
>> Shelly
>> _______________________________________
>> "That is well spoken" replied Candide "but we must cultivate our garden".
>>
>> Don't they teach French in American schools?
Any Jewish content in this post, Henry? Or is it only those you moderate
who are required to conform to that rule, while you're free to post
whatever you like?
Just asking...
--s
--
sheldonlg
Anyway, thank you Cindy for the comment.
To Henry: I suppose due to the small distances where you are in which
language changes, French and maybe others may be required of students.
Here in the US, with our vast expanse on one language, one foreign
language is deemed enough to be required. By far the one of greatest
utility here is Spanish, not French. That is why I chose it.
--
Shelly
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
It was pointed out how right vs. left came about in politics. It is
from Ecclesiastes 10:2
"A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to
the left."
And the next sentence (vs 3) shows the problem with bumper stickers:
"Even when the fool walks on the road, he lacks sense, and he says to
everyone that he is a fool."
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> On 5/24/2011 9:38 AM, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
And yet you support collectivism as defined by the democrats????
You actually sound more like a libertarian (classic liberal in the
Jeffersonian Democrat tradition).
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
But then normal people do not see a neo-nazi hiding behind ever
republic as you do.
Henry Goodman
cindys
"This is good to say," answered Candide, "but it's necessary to
cultivate our garden."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> "sheldonlg" <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
Your translation was better than mine.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Joe Bruno
And who "requires" a foreign language in the USA?
It was required at the U of Illinois for those in Liberal Arts, but
not in Engineering or Commerce.
My Father went to Northwestern and it was not required of any student.
sheldonlg
It was a requirement to get a diploma from my _high school_ in NYC
(Stuyvesant H.S.) and, I believe, that at least at that time it was a
requirement to have two years of a foreign language in all high schools
there.
Context:
I mentioned books I read in _high school_.
Cindy responded in French.
I asked for a translation.
Henry did so and asked if _schools_ in the US teach French.
so, the context interprets "schools" as "high schools", not colleges.
BTW, my Engineering college Cooper Union) didn't require it either, but
for my Masters at Brooklyn Polytechnic I needed to be able to translate
a technical paper from French (with using a French-English dictionary).
--
Shelly
cindys
It mostly still is. The requirement in New York State is 3 years of a
foreign language for a Regents Diploma. Most colleges and universities
have a foreign language requirement as well.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
wrote:
>On May 24, 12:01 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>>
>> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
>> >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
>> >----
>> >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
>> >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
>> >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>> >get more of the same.
>>
>> He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
>
>And the distinction there is...............................??????
Word emphasis by pronunciation emphasis, tone of voice.
HE'D find more of the same.
He'd FIND more of the same.
He'd find MORE of the same (what I wrote)
He'd find more of the SAME.
Used by everyone, but probably a lot more than most by Yiddish
speakers and their descendants.
I can't remember or find the famous example with 8 choices, often
included with jokes, but here are some words to google, not just for
this, but for other interesting topics: a) yiddish tone of voice
b) yiddish word emphasis
>> More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
>> something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
>> too. For him it's just a means to bash the leftwing. His loyalty to
>> the right seems stronger than his loyalty to Jews.
>
>"Loyalty to the right"??????????????????
>That's a novel concept to me. I'm a Conservative Republican who
>disliked Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon.
>
>Since you now cannot use me as an example,
I never tried to use you as an example.
> who else did you have in
>mind?
I never had you in mind. I was replying to Cindy, and I had in mind
the person she called "you" in her post that I replied to, and I
called "he", Shmar. He's the only one I've met (dealt with) who
meets my description.
mm
<omeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
.........
>
>
>It was pointed out
By whom?
>how right vs. left came about in politics. It is
>from Ecclesiastes 10:2
>"A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to
>the left."
How do you know this refers to politics, and even if it do, do you
really think right and left meant the same 2300+ years ago as they do
in a political sense now? Left didnt' mean liberal or right
conservative until some time after 1789 in France. The French didn't
even exist when Kohelet was written. Plus even now it means different
things in different places.
>And the next sentence (vs 3) shows the problem with bumper stickers:
>"Even when the fool walks on the road, he lacks sense, and he says to
>everyone that he is a fool."
You don't meet the second half of this. Even when you're totally
factually wrong, you never admit it, and certainly never apologize.
Joe Bruno
> On Tue, 24 May 2011 16:46:37 +0000 (UTC), Joe Bruno <ajta...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On May 24, 12:01 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> >> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> >> >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
> >> >----
> >> >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> >> >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> >> >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> >> >get more of the same.
>
> >> He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
>
> >And the distinction there is...............................??????
>
> Word emphasis by pronunciation emphasis, tone of voice.
>
> HE'D find more of the same.
>
> He'd FIND more of the same.
>
> He'd find MORE of the same (what I wrote)
>
> He'd find more of the SAME.
>
> Used by everyone, but probably a lot more than most by Yiddish
> speakers and their descendants.
I never took Yiddish from anyone, but, since I took 2 years of German,
I can muddle through it if I want to.My ancestors all spoke it in
private conversation, but nobody in my generation really ever made the
effort to learn it.
> I can't remember or find the famous example with 8 choices, often
> included with jokes, but here are some words to google, not just for
> this, but for other interesting topics: a) yiddish tone of voice
> b) yiddish word emphasis
>
> >> More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
> >> something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
> >> too. For him it's just a means to bash the leftwing. His loyalty to
> >> the right seems stronger than his loyalty to Jews.
>
> >"Loyalty to the right"??????????????????
> >That's a novel concept to me. I'm a Conservative Republican who
> >disliked Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon.
>
>
>
> --
>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>> cindys<cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
>>>>> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>>>>
>>>> LOL! "Some are more equal than others". :-)
>>>
>>> I think you, kosher Moshe, are quoting a pig. :-)
>>
>> I wish more people were familiar with George Orwell's farmyard.
>
> In high school four books made a great impression on me.
>
> One was "Animal Farm" which showed how Communism was essentially a
> farce and that it was Capitalism that drove the world.
>
> A second was "1984" which (1) made me ever wary of "Big Brother",
> (2) showed how those in power could rewrite history and (3) to be
> constantly vigilant of our personal freedoms.
My high school experience was mainly short stories and poems. I read
those two later on. I see how Animal Farm shows the farce and evils
of Communism, but I don't recall the paean to Capitalism.
>
> A third was "Brave New World" that showed that the essence of being
> human was a striving. Utopia is not for humans because then we become
> little better that other animals. Better to live as one of "the savages".
>
> The fourth was "Candide". I guess we live in "the best of all possible
> worlds". Again, Utopia is a personal goal, not a desired end result.
>
> To this list I will add one I read in college, "Atlas Shrugged". We
> should all be evaluated on how much of our personal abilities we put
> into an effort and that not everyone has the same native ability.
Interesting list. And Shakespear is chopped liver?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Joe Bruno wrote:
>> sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>>> Henry Goodman wrote:
>>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>>>>> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is
>>>>>> "ou et? and "merci".
What is "ou et?"?
>>>>> _______________________________________
>>>>> "That is well spoken" replied Candide "but we must cultivate our garden".
>>>
>>>>> Don't they teach French in American schools?
>>>
>>>> Yes, they do. They also teach Spanish and other languages. I chose Spanish.
>>>
>>> Anyway, thank you Cindy for the comment.
>>>
>>> To Henry: I suppose due to the small distances where you are in which
>>> language changes, French and maybe others may be required of students.
>>> Here in the US, with our vast expanse on one language, one foreign
>>> language is deemed enough to be required. By far the one of greatest
>>> utility here is Spanish, not French. That is why I chose it.
>>
>> And who "requires" a foreign language in the USA?
>> It was required at the U of Illinois for those in Liberal Arts, but
>> not in Engineering or Commerce.
>> My Father went to Northwestern and it was not required of any student.
>
> It was a requirement to get a diploma from my _high school_ in NYC
> (Stuyvesant H.S.) and, I believe, that at least at that time it was a
> requirement to have two years of a foreign language in all high schools
> there.
>
> Context:
> I mentioned books I read in _high school_.
> Cindy responded in French.
> I asked for a translation.
> Henry did so and asked if _schools_ in the US teach French.
>
> so, the context interprets "schools" as "high schools", not colleges.
>
> BTW, my Engineering college Cooper Union) didn't require it either, but
> for my Masters at Brooklyn Polytechnic I needed to be able to translate
> a technical paper from French (with using a French-English dictionary).
When I started high school we had a choice of Spanish or French. My
father A"H had a smattering of Spanish so that's what I chose. Most
of my friends took French. I don't recall too much of my Spanish,
but I do sometimes use a sentence as an ice-breaker when I meet a
native Spanish speaker.
mm
>
>What is "ou et?"?
I think it's part of al ou et te. It's a song. :)
Alouette, gentille Alouette
Alouette je te plumerai
Alouette, gentille Alouette
Alouette je te plumerai
Je te plumerai la tete
Je te plumerai la tete
Et la tte, et la tete
Alouette, Alouette
O-o-o-o-oh
Alouette, gentille Alouette
Alouette je te plumerai
Alouette, gentille Alouette
Alouette je te plumerai
Alouette, gentille Alouette
Alouette je te plumerai
Je te plumerai le nez
Je te plumerai le nez
Et le nez, et le nez
Alouette, Alouette
O-o-o-o-oh
Alouette, gentille Alouette
Alouette je te plumerai
Je te plumerai les yeux
Je te plumerai le cou
Je te plumerai les ailes
Je te plumerai le dos
Je te plumerai les pattes
Je te plumerai la queue
Je te plumerai la queue
...you will find it is much harder to sing this song in English since
"lark" has only one syllable,
Lark, nice Lark (or Lark, lovely Lark)
Lark, I am going to pluck you
I am going to pluck your head,
I am going to pluck your head,
And the head, and the head,
O-o-o-o-oh
All the verses are the same except the part of the body.
The usual ones are
La tete - the head
Le nez - the nose
Les yeux - the eyes
Le cou - the neck
Les ailes - the wings
Le dos - the back
Les pattes - the legs
Le queue - the tail
Joe Bruno
ADmittedly if you live in California, Arizona, New Mexico or Texas, it
can be useful.
However, I've lived in San Diego since 1974 and never needed it.
Contrary to what the immigrant-haters tell you about Hispanics, the
huge majority of them have accepted the need to speak English and do
just that.
Of course they prefer Spanish, but so what?
I prefer to express myself in Russian, but I understand that most
Americans find it a mystery.
If I restricted my conversations to Russky, I'd spend most of my time
talking only to myself.
Henry Goodman
news:2011May2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> sheldonlg <shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> Joe Bruno wrote:
>>> sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>>>> Henry Goodman wrote:
>>>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is
>>>>>>> "ou et? and "merci".
>
> What is "ou et?"?
>
>>>>>> _______________________________________
The literal translation is "or and" so I assume it is a Boolean expression
in a software language that Shelly knows but I don't.
Fattush
> On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
> >----
> >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> >get more of the same.
>
> He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
> something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
> too.
Honestly, I don't think that is a fair statement.
IMO right wing anti Semitism is so obvious, it would not be much of a
discussion. Would there really be a debate here if someone posted
links to various neo Nazi web sites and said, "Look. They are anti
Semitic?"
Anti Semitism on the left is more subtle and, unfortunately, more
acceptable in the West and in Western media, IMO. The distinguished
attorney, Alan Dershowitz, has written an essay or two decrying the
widespread anti Zionism that exists in academic circles today, and how
anti Zionism is the new anti Semitism. IMO one cannot ignore the
connection between anti Israel fervor which is pretty rampant on the
left and anti Semitism.
Fattush
wrote:
> On May 24, 3:01 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>
> > <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> > >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
> > >----
> > >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
> > >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
> > >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> > >get more of the same.
>
> > He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
> > More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
> > something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
> > the right seems stronger than his loyalty to Jews.
>
> HaShem. Politics is their religion.
>
> while ignoring the growing anti-semitism on the left. What I posted
> here was a growing body of articles on how the left is turning against
> Jews in favor of Muslims.
>
> I am well aware of those on the right who are clueless and careless
> about their comments towards Jews. It is mostly in their lack of
> understanding. But what we are seeing on the left is far more
> dangerous.-
I think you are being much too lenient when you seem to excuse right
wing anti Semitism as due to people being merely clueless or careless.
What do you mean by "right wing"? Surely if someone were a member of
a neo Nazi group who praised Hitler and spewed vile statements about
Jews you would not think of them as merely "clueless" or
"careless" . . . would you?
Fattush
wrote:
> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
> if it was just due to Jews having become more success (thus no longer
> victims). Or was it due to Israel (strong anti western attitudes
> among the leftists, blame Europe and America for colonialism and
> exploitation). Just remember that the left is now more about being
> progressive and less about collectivism. Here are some of the results
>
> Good listing of sourceshttp://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.htmlhttp://www.paulbogdanor.com/
>
> What is left anti-semitism?http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041
>
> Why Left Wing Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitismhttp://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-left-wing-anti-zionism-is...
I snipped this to save space, but I wanted to say "thank you" for the
post. IMO this is an
important and timely subject.
I've had many, many debates with well meaning people "on the left" who
are harsh critics of Israel and who seem enamoured of the
"Palestinian" cause. These left wing people seem sincerely concerned
about social injustice and similar issues, yet almost consistantly see
Israel and her supporters as evil and the Arabs has innocent victims.
Yet if I use the word "anti Semitism," they recoil in horror. They
just can't see it in themselves.
Fattush
> On May 23, 10:52 pm, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > I was going to ask you Cindy, if your knee doesn't hurt from the
> > constant jerking at every post Shmaryahu writes. But I see he
> > answered you quite well. Of course, it would have been much better
> > had he snipped some of the old stuff.
>
> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>
>
>
> > snip
>
> > WOW, there are _lots_ of great testimonials and reviews there.
>
> You completely missed the point, but Meir got it in one. The only goal
> here is that Shmaryahu is trying to villify this so-called "leftwing,"
> which to his mind includes any and every social issue, person, event
> that has occurred over the last 50 years that he personally dislikes.
> It includes: Gay people, feminists, the USSR, secularism, gun control,
> and environmentalism, just to name a few. Antisemitism is not a
> rightwing/leftwing thing, but bringing it into the picture provides a
> convenient excuse for posting a bunch of hysterical rightwing
> propaganda on SCJM.
IMO, left wing anti Semitism is very real. It's an important issue.
There are some prominant politicians and civil rights leaders such as
Jesse Jackson who have quite a following; their personal charisma and
left wing ideology appeal to the have nots. In today's economy, there
are many have nots.
IMO the anti Jewish views coming from the left are potentially very
dangerous. The anti Semitism is somewhat disguised and not seen for
what it is.
If Smaryahu dislikes gays, the USSR, feminists, etc. I don't really
care, but IMO he does have a valid point about Jew hatred from the
left.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Thank you FT. You don't allow your dislike of the messenger and
his style to make you ignore the message.
Cindy, it need not be a "conspiracy". But the "elite" in academia
and in many countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter
what it does. Remember the "sh*tty little country" remark? Those
people usually have left wing views. So as FT says, the point is
a valid one.
sheldonlg
There are several distinct "anti" categories:
1 - Anti-Semitism
2 - Anti-Zionism
3 - Anti-Israel
4 - Anti certain Israeli policies
...and maybe more.
The distinction between #2 and #3 is small but is essentially #2 being
against the philosophy of the right of return to a Jewish homeland while
#3 is being against the current state of Israel (which includes Arabs
citizens).
While I am a supporter of Israel, I find myself in category #4. Does
that make me an "anti-Semite"? Hardly. (Meir, I have you killfiled so
say what you will).
Your automatic equating of #1 with #3 is fallacious.
--
Shelly
cindys
snip
>
> If Smaryahu dislikes gays, the USSR, feminists, etc. I don't really
> care, but IMO he does have a valid point about Jew hatred from the
> left.
No, he doesn't. Sure, there are some so-called leftwingers who are
antisemitic, but there are rightwingers who are antisemitic too. Anti-
semitism is apolitical, and you'll find it cuts across all groups and
political leanings. Environmentalists and gun control advocates are
not as a group any more antisemitic than right wing Republicans.
I really don't see that the purpose of SCJM is political, and it ticks
me off to see someone trying to use antisemitism for an emotional
appeal, when the real agenda is something else entirely. The real
agenda here is to strike out at the "left wing" bogeymen, (people who
support things like gun control, protecting the environment, equal
rights for gay people, and even middle-of-the-road Republicans,
according to Shmaryahu), which is completely unconnected to
antisemitism.
I take issue with his use of the antisemitism card to legitimize using
SCJM as a platform for promoting a series of bizarre political views,
which include (but are not limited to): An ongoing series of invented
untruths, whacko conspiracy theories, ramblings about the "code pink"
feminists who are attempting to re-live their "glory days," and
warnings that the USA is on the brink of civil war and rapidly
becoming a congener of the former USSR.
And proclaiming that "some of the people who participated in the 1960s
protests were Jewish" (or WTTE) does not turn conspiracy theory
ramblings into an on-topic discussion for a Jewish newsgroup.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> Joe Bruno wrote:
>>> sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>>>> Henry Goodman wrote:
>>>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is
>>>>>>> "ou et? and "merci".
>
> What is "ou et?"?
"Where is". It was my favorite expression on my first trip to France in
1980. My wife, who had had six years of French, was too embarrassed to
even try to speak French. I, on the other hand, who was totally ignorant
of French didn't care.
A funny incident occurred once over there. We were driving from Nice
and wanted to go to St. Paul Du Vance (an artist colony nearby). I saw
a man walking with a walking stick/cane and pulled alongside him and
asked him "Ou et St Paul Du vance". He answered me "Go to the corner
and turn right" in perfect English.
It is a relatively easy language. All words are pronounced exactly as
spelled and the letters are spoken always with the same sound. The
hardest part for me (after the memorization, of course) was the proper
gender where the object did not end in an "o" (masculine) or "a"
(feminine). So why is it "el lapiz" and not "la lapiz" (the pencil)?
You'd be surprised how much of it comes back. I had two years of
Spanish, and was not very good at it. I even remember my final grade
(year 2) of 85 and was ecstatic. However, forty years later in Aruba, I
spoke with a woman from Venezuela who was trying to learn English and we
practiced with each other and were able to communicate. The funniest
thing was when I was waiting at the desk of the person who arranged
tours and she was speaking to a Spanish speaking couple and trying to
convey that they had to pay in cash. All her attempts failed and then I
chimed in with "dinero" and that solved the problem.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
I probably misspelled it. It means "Where is". What is the proper
spelling?
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>>> cindys<cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
>>>>>> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL! "Some are more equal than others". :-)
>>>>
>>>> I think you, kosher Moshe, are quoting a pig. :-)
>>>
>>> I wish more people were familiar with George Orwell's farmyard.
>>
>> In high school four books made a great impression on me.
>>
>> One was "Animal Farm" which showed how Communism was essentially a
>> farce and that it was Capitalism that drove the world.
>>
>> A second was "1984" which (1) made me ever wary of "Big Brother",
>> (2) showed how those in power could rewrite history and (3) to be
>> constantly vigilant of our personal freedoms.
>
> My high school experience was mainly short stories and poems. I read
> those two later on. I see how Animal Farm shows the farce and evils
> of Communism, but I don't recall the paean to Capitalism.
Do you recall how the pigs set up trade agreements with the humans and
it was a "for profit" motive.
>>
>> A third was "Brave New World" that showed that the essence of being
>> human was a striving. Utopia is not for humans because then we become
>> little better that other animals. Better to live as one of "the savages".
>>
>> The fourth was "Candide". I guess we live in "the best of all possible
>> worlds". Again, Utopia is a personal goal, not a desired end result.
>>
>> To this list I will add one I read in college, "Atlas Shrugged". We
>> should all be evaluated on how much of our personal abilities we put
>> into an effort and that not everyone has the same native ability.
>
> Interesting list. And Shakespear is chopped liver?
Absolutely not. I loved Hamlet and liked MacBeth. However, those did
not have an influence on how I would conduct my life nor on my
philosophies.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>There are several distinct "anti" categories:
>1 - Anti-Semitism
>2 - Anti-Zionism
>3 - Anti-Israel
>4 - Anti certain Israeli policies
>...and maybe more.
>The distinction between #2 and #3 is small but is essentially #2 being
>against the philosophy of the right of return to a Jewish homeland while
>#3 is being against the current state of Israel (which includes Arabs
>citizens).
>While I am a supporter of Israel, I find myself in category #4. Does
>that make me an "anti-Semite"? Hardly. (Meir, I have you killfiled so
>say what you will).
>Your automatic equating of #1 with #3 is fallacious.
Yeah I think you've got it right - I would suggest replacing the word
"Israel" with the word "France" to see if it still feels the same. E.g.,
clearly one can oppose French policies, but I don't know what it would
mean to say you're "anti-France," except something racist/nationalist
about the French people.
I think you're also correct that one can oppose the notion of Zionism
without necessarily being anti-semitic or whatever. I would just hope that
such a person would take a consistent position on that matter with regards
to other countries, e.g., oppose the notion of Ireland being a homeland
for the Irish people, or Japan being a homeland for the Japanese people
(both notions are represented in the various immigration and citizenship
policies of those countries)
If it's OK for the Irish to grant automatic citizenship to anyone with an
Irish grandparent, but not OK for Israel to grant automatic citizenship to
anyone with a Jewish mother, then one would need to be able to explain the
difference between the two.
--s
--
Henry Goodman
news:iriv2j$r45$2...@dont-email.me...
Try "où est". Note the grave accent on the u.
cindys
And I'll say the same thing to you Moshe. It is unfair to
categorically state that academics "usually have leftwing views."
That's just a sweeping generalization. How do you know? Have you taken
a poll? The "sh*tty little country" remark is a non sequitur. It was
said in 2001 by a columnist for the London Daily Telegraph. How does
that translate to "the elite in academia and in many countries have
decided that Israel is wrong no matter what..."?
The point remains that there just as many in the so-called rightwing
who are virulently anti-Israel. Have you seen this:
From: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php
---begin cite---
In one of the most glaring examples of Republican Party cognitive
dissonance, the GOP is positioning itself as the only true American
friend of Israel — but at the same time, moving more and more toward
the pseudo-libertarian anti-Israel politics of Ron Paul and his son
Rand, who strongly advocate eliminating all US aid to the Jewish
state.
Today when Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to Congress, Rand Paul made an
explicit statement of this position by remaining at his desk.
As Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warm
welcome from a joint session of Congress on Tuesday, freshman Sen.
Rand Paul (R-Ky.) skipped out on the speech, sitting quietly at his
Senate desk shuffling through papers and newspapers.
Related:
Ron Paul: Gaza is a Concentration Camp, Israel is Starving
Palestinians
---end cite---
Try running a google search for "Rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
get tons of hits just like this one.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>>
>> What is "ou et?"?
>"Where is". It was my favorite expression on my first trip to France in
>1980. My wife, who had had six years of French, was too embarrassed to
>even try to speak French. I, on the other hand, who was totally ignorant
>of French didn't care.
What you wrote would be pronounced correctly, but is spelled wrong. As you
spelled it it'd mean "or and," if you wanted to spell "where is" it'd be
"ou est" where the "u" has an accent grave over it, which is the
downward-angled stroke.
--s
--
sheldonlg
> If it's OK for the Irish to grant automatic citizenship to anyone with an
> Irish grandparent, but not OK for Israel to grant automatic citizenship to
> anyone with a Jewish mother, then one would need to be able to explain the
> difference between the two.
I don't believe the Law of Return restricts it to the mother.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
You're right, which is why the Japanese, Irish, German, etc. "right of
return" laws are in fact "racist" (not the right word, it's more like
"ethnicist" but that word doesn't exist) while the Israeli policy is not
(because anyone of any race or ethnicity can theoretically convert)
--s
--
sheldonlg
Thanks. I don't know how to put an accent (either way) in on an
American keyboard. Also I see I misspelled est (pronounces as A as in
cake). Now you see why I prefer the spelling/pronunciation of Spanish!
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
There is another difference. Japan has been in existence for a thousand
years and Ireland for hundreds. Germany unified from several Germain
states almost 150 years ago. Israel, on the other hand, was created a
little of sixty years ago after a 2000 year period of non-existence.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>There is another difference. Japan has been in existence for a thousand
>years and Ireland for hundreds. Germany unified from several Germain
>states almost 150 years ago. Israel, on the other hand, was created a
>little of sixty years ago after a 2000 year period of non-existence.
Not clear on why that makes any difference. Yes, there has been some kind
of Japanese ethnic identify for at least 1,000 years I believe, but
there's been a Jewish ethnic identity for longer than that. But the actual
"nation of Japan" in its modern form is, what, 60 years old? Germany too -
similar story. Ireland became an independent country somewhere between
1916 and 1949, depending on which date you choose.
Ireland is very comparable, actually - while the notion of an "Irish
people" as well as a region where the Irish people live goes back perhaps
thousands of years, the nation of Ireland is roughly the same age as the
nation of Israel.
--s
--
Henry Goodman
news:34a2c989-aa7b-4ae6...@w21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On May 25, 5:41 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
> Cindy, it need not be a "conspiracy". But the "elite" in academia
> and in many countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter
> what it does. Remember the "sh*tty little country" remark? Those
> people usually have left wing views. So as FT says, the point is
> a valid one.
----
And I'll say the same thing to you Moshe. It is unfair to
categorically state that academics "usually have leftwing views."
That's just a sweeping generalization. How do you know? Have you taken
a poll? The "sh*tty little country" remark is a non sequitur. It was
said in 2001 by a columnist for the London Daily Telegraph. How does
that translate to "the elite in academia and in many countries have
decided that Israel is wrong no matter what..."?
The "sh*tty little country" remark was made by a major French politician,
can't remember exactly who or which party he belonged to.
Incidentally the Daily Telegraph is a right-wing paper and is the most
supportive of Israel of the major British papers.
Henry Goodman
"sheldonlg" <shel...@thevillages.net> wrote in message
news:irj1go$c0s$1...@dont-email.me...
--
Shelly
_____________________________________
Try holding down the Alt key and typing 0249
--
Henry Goodman
Malcolm McLean
>
> And I'll say the same thing to you Moshe. It is unfair to
> categorically state that academics "usually have leftwing views."
> That's just a sweeping generalization. How do you know?
>
you're reading this it's overwhelmingly likely that you are a Democrat
supporter".
The American political system is close to breakdown, with Republicans
increasingly being excluded from the arts and from academia, with a
similar rejection of Democrats in business and popular Christianity.
The British system cuts more evenly. There are more Labour supporters
than Conservatives in academic posts, but it's not so extreme that
there aren't Conservative academics to be found.
However in English literature left wing politics influences most of
the 'schools' of literary criticism - feminist, Marxist, post-
structuralist, etc. You'll find frankly polemical tracts being
published by academics and set as compulsory reading. However the
trend can't extend to the literature itself. It's not so easy to
pretend that black lesbian poetry workshops are producing great poetry
whilst frankly reactionary poets like Philip Larkin aren't worth
reading.
sheldonlg
> Thanks. I don't know how to put an accent (either way) in on an
> American keyboard. Also I see I misspelled est (pronounces as A as in
> cake). Now you see why I prefer the spelling/pronunciation of Spanish!
>
> --
> Shelly
>
> _____________________________________
>
> Try holding down the Alt key and typing 0249
Of course! It is so obvious. Why didn't I think of that?
--
Shelly
cindys
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
You're right. Daniel Bernard (the French ambassador in London) said it
at a dinner party. One of the other attendees, Lord Black,
subsequently repeated the remark to his wife, Barbara Amiel, who was
the columnist for the London Daily Telegraph who reported the remark
in her column. This is what appeared in Bernard's obituary:
From: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article850777.ece
--Begin cite--
DANIEL BERNARD was an exception in the highly conformist world of the
French Civil Service. Opinionated, jovial and free-speaking, he never
practised the “langue de bois” (wooden language) that is commonplace
among his colleagues.
When he was spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry at the start of
the 1990s, he was felt by journalists as a breath of fresh air, who
enjoyed his briefings as they had never done before and have never
done since. But his determination to speak his mind was to land him in
an undiplomatic row that blotted his career during his stint as the
French Ambassador in London. For he was said to have made crude
remarks about Israel at a dinner party hosted by the former proprietor
of The Daily Telegraph, Lord Black of Crossharbour.
Unfortunately for Bernard, Lord Black conveyed the conversation to his
journalist wife, Barbara Amiel, who reported the comments in her
column in the paper. She said he had described Israel as a “shitty
little country” which was reponsible for triggering the international
security crisis. “Why should we be in danger of World War Three
because of these people?”, he was quoted as saying.
Although Amiel identified him only as “an ambassador of a major
European Union country”, Bernard was named within 24 hours, sparking
fierce controversy. The scandal came at a time when Franco-Israeli
relations were under strain as a result of anti-Semitic violence in
France, and it contributed to the deep distrust that still exists
between the two countries. Many in Israel considered that Bernard had
said tout haut (out loud) what the entire French Establishment thinks
tout bas (in private).
As the French Embassy expressed indignation that a private
conversation had been made public, and Bernard denied that he was anti-
Semitic, senior figures within the British Jewish community called for
him to resign.
He did not. But a year later, in 2002, he was moved to another
ambassador’s posting, Algeria, where the row over his allegedly anti-
Israeli remarks had little bearing on his relations with the
authorities. Indeed, his stance earned him a sympathetic audience in
this and other Arab countries.
[...]
---end cite--
But my point remains that there is no basis for arguing that this
isolated remark made by Daniel Bernard, the French Ambassador to the
UK, in 2001, somehow supports the contention that in 2011, the bulk of
the "elite academia" (throughout the world) is anti-Israel or that
"those people usually have leftwing views." (unless "those people" are
French ambassadors).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Henry Goodman
From: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article850777.ece
___________________________________________________________
It is worth pointing out that Barbara Amiel is Jewish and was one of the
reasons why the Telegraph is pro-Jewish, especially during the period when
her non-Jewish husband Lord Black owned the paper. She stood by him when he
went to gaol.
cindys
wrote:
> On May 24, 12:38 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 24, 7:00 am, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > snip
>
> > > No, it is that too many Jews are more loyal to leftist thought than to
> > > HaShem. Politics is their religion.
>
> > *your* religion. The majority of what you post on SCJM is all about
> > leftwing conspiracy theories and has a tenuous connection to Judaism,
> > at best.
>
> > > Too many of you
>
> > Who exactly is this "you?"
>
> > >will point out every little "potential" anti semitism
> > > while ignoring the growing anti-semitism on the left.
>
> > conspiracy fantasy world. The majority of us understand that
> > antisemitism is an issue unto itself and cuts across many different
> > groups and ideologies. Rational people do not extrapolate that every
> > instance of antisemitism derives from feminism, environmentalism, gun
> > control, homosexuality, Watergate, secularism, the USSR, drug use, the
> > kitchen sink, and everything else in this weird contrived "leftwing
> > conspiracy" fantasy world the extreme right has invented and you seem
> > to have totally embraced. The only thing that's been missing in your
> > posts are references to the Bilderberg group.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> But then normal people do not see a neo-nazi hiding behind ever
> republic as you do.
----
Huh? The above statement is totally nonsensical.
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
----
And I'll say the same thing to you Moshe. It is unfair to
categorically state that academics "usually have leftwing views."
That's just a sweeping generalization. How do you know? Have you taken
a poll?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grades by Republican and Democratic professors at one unnamed "elite
university" showed:
The study looked at grades in 3,300 courses from 417 Democratic or
Republican professors, in the university's arts and sciences division over a
five-year period ending in spring 2004. More than 90% of the teachers
identified themselves as Democrats. (The study excluded third-party members
and independents.)
90% DEMOCRATS!!!!
Best,
Abe
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>> Joe Bruno wrote:
>>>> sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>>>>> Henry Goodman wrote:
>>>>>>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is
>>>>>>>> "ou et? and "merci".
>>
>> What is "ou et?"?
>
> "Where is". It was my favorite expression on my first trip to
> France in 1980. My wife, who had had six years of French, was too
> embarrassed to even try to speak French. I, on the other hand, who
> was totally ignorant of French didn't care.
That is a very interesting point. Someone who thinks he knows
something or feels he _should_ know it, will be embarrased by his
lack of knowlege. Whereas someone who _knows_ he doesn't know will
not be embarrased to ask. That's why children are always asking
questions. They're not expected to know. It's adults who are
embarrased to ask. (And often make big mistakes because of it).
This is expressed in Pirkei Avot "Lo habayshon lomed - one who is
embarrased will not learn".
> A funny incident occurred once over there. We were driving from
> Nice and wanted to go to St. Paul Du Vance (an artist colony
> nearby). I saw a man walking with a walking stick/cane and pulled
> alongside him and asked him "Ou et St Paul Du vance". He answered
> me "Go to the corner and turn right" in perfect English.
LOL. I've done that to people here asking me questions in broken
Hebrew with an English accent.
snip
>> When I started high school we had a choice of Spanish or French. My
>> father A"H had a smattering of Spanish so that's what I chose. Most
>> of my friends took French. I don't recall too much of my Spanish,
>> but I do sometimes use a sentence as an ice-breaker when I meet a
>> native Spanish speaker.
>
> It is a relatively easy language. All words are pronounced exactly as
> spelled and the letters are spoken always with the same sound. The
> hardest part for me (after the memorization, of course) was the proper
> gender where the object did not end in an "o" (masculine) or "a"
> (feminine). So why is it "el lapiz" and not "la lapiz" (the pencil)?
I have that problem with Hebrew.
> You'd be surprised how much of it comes back. I had two years of
> Spanish, and was not very good at it. I even remember my final grade
> (year 2) of 85 and was ecstatic. However, forty years later in Aruba, I
> spoke with a woman from Venezuela who was trying to learn English and we
> practiced with each other and were able to communicate. The funniest
> thing was when I was waiting at the desk of the person who arranged
> tours and she was speaking to a Spanish speaking couple and trying to
> convey that they had to pay in cash. All her attempts failed and then I
> chimed in with "dinero" and that solved the problem.
Because you weren't expected to be fluent in the language, you
weren't embarrased to use just one word!
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>>>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>>>> cindys<cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
>>>>>>> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL! "Some are more equal than others". :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you, kosher Moshe, are quoting a pig. :-)
>>>>
>>>> I wish more people were familiar with George Orwell's farmyard.
>>>
>>> In high school four books made a great impression on me.
>>>
>>> One was "Animal Farm" which showed how Communism was essentially a
>>> farce and that it was Capitalism that drove the world.
>>>
>>> A second was "1984" which (1) made me ever wary of "Big Brother",
>>> (2) showed how those in power could rewrite history and (3) to be
>>> constantly vigilant of our personal freedoms.
>>
>> My high school experience was mainly short stories and poems. I read
>> those two later on. I see how Animal Farm shows the farce and evils
>> of Communism, but I don't recall the paean to Capitalism.
>
> Do you recall how the pigs set up trade agreements with the
> humans and it was a "for profit" motive.
No, I read it a long time ago. I do recall the pigs playing poker
with the humans and one of them producing a hand with _five_ aces!
>
>>> A third was "Brave New World" that showed that the essence of being
>>> human was a striving. Utopia is not for humans because then we become
>>> little better that other animals. Better to live as one of "the savages".
>>>
>>> The fourth was "Candide". I guess we live in "the best of all possible
>>> worlds". Again, Utopia is a personal goal, not a desired end result.
>>>
>>> To this list I will add one I read in college, "Atlas Shrugged". We
>>> should all be evaluated on how much of our personal abilities we put
>>> into an effort and that not everyone has the same native ability.
>>
>> Interesting list. And Shakespear is chopped liver?
>
> Absolutely not. I loved Hamlet and liked MacBeth. However, those
> did not have an influence on how I would conduct my life nor on my
> philosophies.
Aha. I expect many educated people are influenced that way by
literature. L'havdil Torah should do that to those who study it
properly.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> writes:
snip
>> > IMO the anti Jewish views coming from the left are potentially very
>> > dangerous. The anti Semitism is somewhat disguised and not seen for
>> > what it is.
>>
>> > If Smaryahu dislikes gays, the USSR, feminists, etc. I don't really
>> > care, but IMO he does have a valid point about Jew hatred from the
>> > left.
>>
>> Thank you FT. You don't allow your dislike of the messenger and
>> his style to make you ignore the message.
>>
>> Cindy, it need not be a "conspiracy". But the "elite" in academia
>> and in many countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter
>> what it does. Remember the "sh*tty little country" remark? Those
>> people usually have left wing views. So as FT says, the point is
>> a valid one.
> ----
> And I'll say the same thing to you Moshe. It is unfair to
> categorically state that academics "usually have leftwing views."
Umm if I say "usually" then, by definition, it is _not_
"categorically". And are you really claiming that the tilt in most
of academia is _not_ to the "left"?
> That's just a sweeping generalization. How do you know? Have you
> taken a poll?
No, I read about it.
> The "sh*tty little country" remark is a non sequitur. It was
> said in 2001 by a columnist for the London Daily Telegraph.
Sorry Cindy, you can Google for it (just replace the "*" with an "i").
It was said by the French Ambassador to England.
> How does that translate to "the elite in academia and in many
> countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter what..."?
Well, if you change the facts, it does negate the conclusion. :-)
> The point remains that there just as many in the so-called rightwing
> who are virulently anti-Israel. Have you seen this:
I'm sure. But, unforunately most academia and most European
governments (I did _not_ say "all") are more to the left.
>
> From: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php
>
> ---begin cite---
>
> In one of the most glaring examples of Republican Party cognitive
> dissonance, the GOP is positioning itself as the only true American
> friend of Israel =97 but at the same time, moving more and more toward
> the pseudo-libertarian anti-Israel politics of Ron Paul and his son
> Rand, who strongly advocate eliminating all US aid to the Jewish
> state.
>
> Today when Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to Congress, Rand Paul made an
> explicit statement of this position by remaining at his desk.
>
> As Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warm
> welcome from a joint session of Congress on Tuesday, freshman Sen.
> Rand Paul (R-Ky.) skipped out on the speech, sitting quietly at his
> Senate desk shuffling through papers and newspapers.
>
> Related:
> Ron Paul: Gaza is a Concentration Camp, Israel is Starving
> Palestinians
> ---end cite---
Terrible.
> Try running a google search for "Rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
> get tons of hits just like this one.
I'm sure.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I would say the "State" of Israel was created... But the "Nation" of
Israel predates them all.
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
>On May 24, 3:06 pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>> On 5/24/2011 5:58 PM, Joe Bruno wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 24, 11:42 am, sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>> >> On 5/24/2011 2:35 PM, sheldonlg wrote:
>>
>> >>> On 5/24/2011 2:26 PM, Henry Goodman wrote:
>> >>>> Translation please? I don't speak French. All I know is "ou et? and
>> >>>> "merci".
>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Shelly
>> >>>> _______________________________________
>> >>>> "That is well spoken" replied Candide "but we must cultivate our garden".
>>
>> >>>> Don't they teach French in American schools?
>>
>> >>> Yes, they do. They also teach Spanish and other languages. I chose Spanish.
>>
>> >> Anyway, thank you Cindy for the comment.
>>
>> >> To Henry: I suppose due to the small distances where you are in which
>> >> language changes, French and maybe others may be required of students.
>> >> Here in the US, with our vast expanse on one language, one foreign
>> >> language is deemed enough to be required. By far the one of greatest
>> >> utility here is Spanish, not French. That is why I chose it.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Shelly
>>
>> > And who "requires" a foreign language in the USA?
>> > It was required at the U of Illinois for those in Liberal Arts, but
>> > not in Engineering or Commerce.
>> > My Father went to Northwestern and it was not required of any student.
>>
>> It was a requirement to get a diploma from my _high school_ in NYC
>> (Stuyvesant H.S.) and, I believe, that at least at that time it was a
>> requirement to have two years of a foreign language in all high schools
>> there.
>----
>It mostly still is. The requirement in New York State is 3 years of a
>foreign language for a Regents Diploma. Most colleges and universities
>have a foreign language requirement as well.
[snip]
My nephew goes to Bard College in NY state. One of the requirements for
graduation is this: Foreign Language, Literature, and Culture (A course
focused on language acquisition and/or the analysis of literature or
culture via an engagement with a non-English language)
Now, I'm not sure what "an engagement" is, but it seems to imply a
degree of fluency. My nephew's major is (or was, he was thinking of
changing it) Written Arts, which requires a reading knowledge of a
foreign language.
Susan Silberstein
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I would substitute "State" for "nation" in your last sentence.
mm
>Cindy wrote:
>> As Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warm
>> welcome from a joint session of Congress on Tuesday, freshman Sen.
>> Rand Paul (R-Ky.) skipped out on the speech, sitting quietly at his
>> Senate desk shuffling through papers and newspapers.
I got confused by this myself, so to make it clear to non-Americans,
joint sessions meet in the House chamber because it's much bigger.
The put in extra chairs for the Senators and the Cabinet and whoever
else comes.
So the Senate chamber is empty except for Rand Paul. He could have
stayed in his office or anywhere else, but it seems he wanted to
publicly make the point that he could have gone but he didn't. It
looks like the dumbbell doesn't fall far from the dumbbell tree.
>>
>> Related:
>> Ron Paul: Gaza is a Concentration Camp, Israel is Starving
>> Palestinians
BTW, being a libertarian isn't what makes one stupid. Depending on
what people think about him and them, he may be giving libertarians a
bad name.
>> ---end cite---
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
Abe Kohen
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:irj5um$s29$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
What's a gaol? Typo for goal?
Best,
Abe
sheldonlg
>> You'd be surprised how much of it comes back. I had two years of
>> Spanish, and was not very good at it. I even remember my final grade
>> (year 2) of 85 and was ecstatic. However, forty years later in Aruba, I
>> spoke with a woman from Venezuela who was trying to learn English and we
>> practiced with each other and were able to communicate. The funniest
>> thing was when I was waiting at the desk of the person who arranged
>> tours and she was speaking to a Spanish speaking couple and trying to
>> convey that they had to pay in cash. All her attempts failed and then I
>> chimed in with "dinero" and that solved the problem.
>
> Because you weren't expected to be fluent in the language, you
> weren't embarrased to use just one word!
Well, I could have answered "Por favor, la palabra es dinero" -- or is
it esta instead of es? I think it is es because ser (to be) is
existence whereas estar (to be) is a condition of being (estoy bien -- I
am well).
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>> Do you recall how the pigs set up trade agreements with the
>> humans and it was a "for profit" motive.
>
> No, I read it a long time ago. I do recall the pigs playing poker
> with the humans and one of them producing a hand with _five_ aces!
No, it was the pig and and another both producing the Ace of Spades.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> Ireland is very comparable, actually - while the notion of an "Irish
>> people" as well as a region where the Irish people live goes back perhaps
>> thousands of years, the nation of Ireland is roughly the same age as the
>> nation of Israel.
>I would substitute "State" for "nation" in your last sentence.
Sure.
--s
--
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>
>>> Do you recall how the pigs set up trade agreements with the
>>> humans and it was a "for profit" motive.
>>
>> No, I read it a long time ago. I do recall the pigs playing poker
>> with the humans and one of them producing a hand with _five_ aces!
>
> No, it was the pig and and another both producing the Ace of Spades.
Close enough!
W. Baker
: > A funny incident occurred once over there. We were driving from
: > Nice and wanted to go to St. Paul Du Vance (an artist colony
: > nearby). I saw a man walking with a walking stick/cane and pulled
: > alongside him and asked him "Ou et St Paul Du vance". He answered
: > me "Go to the corner and turn right" in perfect English.
: LOL. I've done that to people here asking me questions in broken
: Hebrew with an English accent.
: snip
I once was able to get someone familiar with ancient Norse to tell me the
source of a phrase from a piece of music I had sung over 50 ears ago in my
college chorus. I gave him my best Englich phonetic version of the
ancient Norse that had all those strange letters with lines through tem,
etc. He ws able to tell the exact sourse, as it ws from an, apparantly,
well known Elder Edda, at least well know to students of ancient Norse.
This all on a newsgroup.
Perhaps as much a testament to my memory of past events as to his
skills:-)
Wendy Baker
Henry Goodman
news:irker9$9jc$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>
> "Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:irj5um$s29$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>>
>> It is worth pointing out that Barbara Amiel is Jewish and was one of the
>> reasons why the Telegraph is pro-Jewish, especially during the period
>> when her non-Jewish husband Lord Black owned the paper. She stood by him
>> when he went to gaol.
>
> What's a gaol? Typo for goal?
>
> Best,
> Abe
>
I think Americans spell it "jail"
cindys
Moshe, I think you are skipping or missing some posts. I already made
this correction, and Henry and I had a multi-post conversation about
it.
>
> > How does that translate to "the elite in academia and in many
> > countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter what..."?
>
> Well, if you change the facts, it does negate the conclusion. :-)
So, you would argue that because 10 years ago, Daniel Bernard (who was
at that time the French Ambassador to the UK) while attending a
cocktail party, remarked that Israel was a "sh*tty little country"
that somehow translates to "the elite in academia and in many
countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter what." Again,
what am I missing here?
>
> > The point remains that there just as many in the so-called rightwing
> > who are virulently anti-Israel. Have you seen this:
>
> I'm sure. But, unfortunately most academia and most European
> governments (I did _not_ say "all") are more to the left.
Which does not translate to cause and effect. But the point Shmaryahu
was trying to make is that antisemitism is skewed toward the left, and
the right loves Jews. I don't believe that for an instant.
Europe has been rife with antisemitism for centuries. Jewish ghettos
were established in Europe over 200 years ago, and there weren't any
leftwing "Code Pink" feminists then. Were the designers of the Spanish
Inquisition a bunch of environmentalists? How about the pogroms? Was
Eastern Europe rife with proponents of gay marriage? Were Europeans
advocating secularism?
There is nothing more conservative than the Catholic Church, and we
all know what a great friend the Church has been to the Jews of Europe
over the centuries. As far as academics are concerned, were there or
were there not forced intellectual debates between rabbis and
priests?
If the European governments and academia were more to the right, there
isn't any reason to believe they wouldn't be just as antisemitic as
they are now. There isn't any proof at all that liberalism leads to
antisemitism. And providing a bunch of cites that demonstrate some
liberals are antisemitic without providing the corresponding cites
that demonstrate some conservatives are antisemitic is not any *proof*
of anything at all.
But Shmaryahu is primarily obsessed with trashing the "evil" leftwing,
and he will write whatever it takes to get other people to agree with
him. He has repeatedly posted all sorts of bizarre nonsense about
"Code pink" feminists, gays, environmentalists, and the USSR from 50
years ago in addition to all the stuff he just makes up off the top of
his own head. And most of the time, everyone correctly sees this stuff
for the nonsense that it is. But now, since he has added antisemitism
to the list of "leftwing" ideologies, all of a sudden people like you
and Fattush are jumping up to agree with him.
Shmaryahu has an obsession with the political "left." To him, "the
left" is evil incarnate. And his agenda is to try to convince other
people to agree with him. Historically speaking, antisemitism has
always been endemic in Europe, and the Enlightenment (liberalism)
actually resulted in much greater tolerance and open-mindedness toward
Jews. Antisemitism has traditionally been part of the *conservative*
(not liberal) camp, and conservative or liberal, antisemitism is
ingrained in Europe and always has been, long before there were tree-
huggers and pinkos just itching to destroy the idyllic world of 1950s
America.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Joe Bruno
> On May 25, 10:56 pm, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>
> . Antisemitism has traditionally been part of the *conservative*
> (not liberal) camp,
Actually, I am unaware of any conservative "camp".
I agree with many conservatives on many things and disagree with some
on others.
Many conservatives idolize Ronald Reagan. I certainly don't.I think
his foreign policy was disastrous.
This spurious claim by Cindy has traditionally been part of the
propaganda of the ultra-left.
It is what General George Patton called "Horsedung".Jews claim they
are not bigots and do not
place labels of smear on widely diverse people.To make such a claim
while simultaneously condemning others as "bigots" is pure hypocrisy.
Let us see some anti-semitic claims by mainstream Republicans who are
active in politics today.
Better yet, show us some actual actions that prove this to be true.
Joe Bruno
>
> There is nothing more conservative than the Catholic Church,
Evidence???????????????????????????
and we
> all know what a great friend the Church has been to the Jews of Europe
> over the centuries.
And, of course, you assume that the policies and attitudes of people
who died centuries ago are representative
of those who live today.
Mosaic law prescribes death by stoning for homosexuals, disobedient
children and adulterers.
When was the last time you saw Jews stone anyone for these things?
The Catholic Church condemned Galileo and Copernicus for denying that
the Sun revolved around the Earth. See any of that today by the
Vatican, do you?
The inquistion and persection of heretics by the Catholic Church
stopped centuries ago.
Your blaming the Catholic Church of 2011 for things that happened
centuries ago is bigotry and nothing more.It is scapegoating I thought
only Nazis did that to Jews.
Joe Bruno
PSSST!
http://jewishconservativealliance.org/
Joe Bruno
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from cindys
Courses like the one you describe are not courses which teach the
students to speak and write a foreign language, but, rather,
propaganda like "Music appreciation".They teach attitudes, not
skills.
Do you believe that music appreciation courses actually teach someone
to play an instrument?
Do you believe that a course in Russian culture actually produces
fluent speakers of Russian?
If you were even vaguely familiar with the complexities of Russian,
you would not even hint at such a thing.
Joe Bruno
This was issued in 1965 by the Pope. I posted it here before. Perhaps
you missed it:
mm
<fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 24, 3:01 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 May 2011 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>>
>> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >On May 23, 1:38 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> Just wondering how much was out there, via Google, on leftwing anti
>> >> semitism. I have noticed more hatred of Jews from the left.
>> >----
>> >Don't you ever stop? What did you do, google for "leftwing
>> >antisemitism?" Did you cite every rightwing, conspiracy-theory nutcase
>> >rambling on the web? Google for "rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>> >get more of the same.
>>
>> He wouldn't just find more of the same. He'd find MORE of the same.
>> More than in the leftwing But for Shmar, antisemitism isn't really
>> something he cares about, or he'd be bothered by it in the rightwing
>> too.
>
>
>Honestly, I don't think that is a fair statement.
>
>IMO right wing anti Semitism is so obvious, it would not be much of a
>discussion. Would there really be a debate here if someone posted
>links to various neo Nazi web sites and said, "Look. They are anti
>Semitic?"
You raise a good point if I had been talking to most people, but
unfortunately it's not accurate for Shmar, as you can see by his reply
to me. "I am well aware of those on the right who are clueless and
careless about their comments towards Jews. It is mostly in their
lack of understanding. But what we are seeing on the left is far more
dangerous."
So he thinks the problem in the right is that some are clueless and
careless about what they say, and they have lack of understanding. Is
he hopelessly naive, or blind to the dung in the right? I think it's
the latter, (and blind is a mild word for his condition), his reply
just confirms that to me, and that's why I posted what I did. If he
were more interested in antisemitism and not just interested in
bashing liberals, he might really want to know more about anti-s and
he might open his eyes. Let me know if he ever does.
>Anti Semitism on the left is more subtle and, unfortunately, more
Subtle? There is plenty of subtle antisemitism on the right. One
doesn't have to identify as a damn nazi to be an antisemite. You
concentrate only on neo nazis in your answer, so I hope you know they
are probably the most up front, but there are more like them among the
right, who don't show their colors, and lots of others who aren't as
bad, but are still antisemitic at all other levels. Some will get
worse; some will get better. (My impression, not provable by me, is
that secular and almost secular gentiles -- who may have xmas trees
and xian weddings and even maybe "Christenings" if that is their
parents' tradition, but are, other than that, non-observant and
believing little or nothing -- are the ones who most despise and
ridicule antisemitism.)
Even being pro-Israel doesn't preclude being an antisemite. I hope
people realize that. I'm definitely not accusing all who are
pro-Israel or all who are evangelical, (or all who aren't these
things) but for Xians, Israel is a device to get what they want, the
Rapture, etc. Since Israeli independence, the number of predicted
ends to the world, like last Saturday, has increased several-fold.
Beyond the blatant crackpots like last week's guy, there are 50, 70
million Xians in the US, maybe more, who think the existence of Israel
means their Rapture is near, and that is the role Israel plays in
their lives.
Anti-s is not about right or left politically. The major reason for
it, IMVSO is Xianity teaching hatred for Judaism and Jews and that
being passed down even to those who don't take Xianity seriously.
And still being taught, also. And some percentage, smaller lately, I
think, of them believing it on the basis of Xianity or just because so
many people they've known are anti-s too.
Anti-s is a state of mind. It's not dependent on how violent someone
is against Jews, but even if it were, the violent anti-s. are a tiny
percentage of them in the US, and the open hatemongers are almost as
tiny a percentage of the anti-s.
>acceptable in the West and in Western media, IMO. The distinguished
>attorney, Alan Dershowitz, has written an essay or two decrying the
>widespread anti Zionism that exists in academic circles today, and how
>anti Zionism is the new anti Semitism.
That's a catchphrase, and Dershowitz's goal is to discredit
anti-Israel-ism, and he's right. You can see from my post "Beyond Yad
vaShem" where I point out that Arabs and Moslems are blamed for
trouble or given part of the blame regarding everywhere in the world
except Israel. But Dershowitz is an advocate in that essay, like the
lawyer he is, and he's not going to present evidence that points to
any other conclusion, even a con-conflicting one. Any more than he
would during a trial.
I'm pretty sure he hasn't forgotten and I hope he doesn't cause people
to forget that there is plenty of anti-s that doesn't involve Israel.
It just doesn't make the news unless it's violent.
>IMO one cannot ignore the
>connection between anti Israel fervor which is pretty rampant on the
>left and anti Semitism.
Who is trying to ignore the antisemitism in the anti-Israel
population? Not me or any Jew I know. I guess J-street type Jews do,
but I don't know any of them.
But having read to the end of your post, I hope I'm wrong but you
seem able to ignore the antisemitism in the right, unless they
identify themselves as nazis. I don't think any of us can give
percentages about anti-s in any group, but even those who are
pro-Israel are infected with anti-semitism, and I'll bet just as much
as others. Even if it's say 10% lower, that's no reason to think
it's not there.
Yisroel Markov
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> said:
>On May 25, 5:41 am, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Fattush <fattuc...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> > cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>
>> >> > I was going to ask you Cindy, if your knee doesn't hurt from the
>> >> > constant jerking at every post Shmaryahu writes. But I see he
>> >> > answered you quite well. Of course, it would have been much better
>> >> > had he snipped some of the old stuff.
>>
>> >> My knee "jerks" whenever I read nonsense on SCJM, no matter who writes
>> >> it. It's just that some people write more nonsense than others.
>>
>> >> > snip
>>
>> >> > WOW, there are _lots_ of great testimonials and reviews there.
>>
>> >> You completely missed the point, but Meir got it in one. The only goal
>> >> here is that Shmaryahu is trying to villify this so-called "leftwing,"
>> >> which to his mind includes any and every social issue, person, event
>> >> that has occurred over the last 50 years that he personally dislikes.
>> >> It includes: Gay people, feminists, the USSR, secularism, gun control,
>> >> and environmentalism, just to name a few. Antisemitism is not a
>> >> rightwing/leftwing thing, but bringing it into the picture provides a
>> >> convenient excuse for posting a bunch of hysterical rightwing
>> >> propaganda on SCJM.
>>
>> > IMO, left wing anti Semitism is very real. It's an important issue.
>> > There are some prominant politicians and civil rights leaders such as
>> > Jesse Jackson who have quite a following; their personal charisma and
>> > left wing ideology appeal to the have nots. In today's economy, there
>> > are many have nots.
>>
>> > IMO the anti Jewish views coming from the left are potentially very
>> > dangerous. The anti Semitism is somewhat disguised and not seen for
>> > what it is.
>>
>> > If Smaryahu dislikes gays, the USSR, feminists, etc. I don't really
>> > care, but IMO he does have a valid point about Jew hatred from the
>> > left.
>>
>> Thank you FT. You don't allow your dislike of the messenger and
>> his style to make you ignore the message.
>>
>> Cindy, it need not be a "conspiracy". But the "elite" in academia
>> and in many countries have decided that Israel is wrong no matter
>> what it does. Remember the "sh*tty little country" remark? Those
>> people usually have left wing views. So as FT says, the point is
>> a valid one.
>----
>And I'll say the same thing to you Moshe. It is unfair to
>categorically state that academics "usually have leftwing views."
>That's just a sweeping generalization. How do you know? Have you taken
>a poll?
Not me:
>The "sh*tty little country" remark is a non sequitur. It was
>said in 2001 by a columnist for the London Daily Telegraph. How does
>that translate to "the elite in academia and in many countries have
>decided that Israel is wrong no matter what..."?
>
>The point remains that there just as many in the so-called rightwing
>who are virulently anti-Israel. Have you seen this:
>
>From: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php
>
>---begin cite---
>
>In one of the most glaring examples of Republican Party cognitive
>dissonance, the GOP is positioning itself as the only true American
>friend of Israel — but at the same time, moving more and more toward
>the pseudo-libertarian anti-Israel politics of Ron Paul and his son
>Rand, who strongly advocate eliminating all US aid to the Jewish
>state.
This is not exactly fair. There's nothing davka anti-Israel in a
principled stand of "no foreign aid to anybody." (And what's "pseudo"
about it?)
>Today when Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to Congress, Rand Paul made an
>explicit statement of this position by remaining at his desk.
>
> As Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warm
>welcome from a joint session of Congress on Tuesday, freshman Sen.
>Rand Paul (R-Ky.) skipped out on the speech, sitting quietly at his
>Senate desk shuffling through papers and newspapers.
Now *that* is interesting.
>Related:
>Ron Paul: Gaza is a Concentration Camp, Israel is Starving
>Palestinians
>---end cite---
Well, Gaza is a concentration camp. Of course, Israel hadn't quite set
it up that way. But "starving Palestinians"? What's up with that?
Incidentally, a couple of days ago about a dozen Israeli activists
agitating on behalf of Gilad Shalit blocked an armored truck
delivering cash from Israel to Gaza with their bodies, and maintained
the block for several hours.
>Try running a google search for "Rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>get tons of hits just like this one.
Certainly, but Fattush had made a good observation: left-wing
antisemitism is better camouflaged and is thus acceptable in "polite
society."
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Yisroel Markov
<omeg...@gmail.com> said:
>On May 24, 12:38 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> On May 24, 7:00 am, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
[snip]
>> That's right. Rational people are not caught up in your leftwing
>> conspiracy fantasy world. The majority of us understand that
>> antisemitism is an issue unto itself and cuts across many different
>> groups and ideologies. Rational people do not extrapolate that every
>> instance of antisemitism derives from feminism, environmentalism, gun
>> control, homosexuality, Watergate, secularism, the USSR, drug use, the
>> kitchen sink, and everything else in this weird contrived "leftwing
>> conspiracy" fantasy world the extreme right has invented and you seem
>> to have totally embraced. The only thing that's been missing in your
>> posts are references to the Bilderberg group.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
>But then normal people do not see a neo-nazi hiding behind ever
>republic as you do.
Over the years, we've had a couple of posters like that around here
(mercifully gone now) - people who saw a Nazi behind every Republican.
Cindy is not one of them.
cindys
> On Tue, 24 May 2011 20:44:58 +0000 (UTC), "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch"
snip
>
> >But then normal people do not see a neo-nazi hiding behind ever
> >republic as you do.
>
> Over the years, we've had a couple of posters like that around here
> (mercifully gone now) - people who saw a Nazi behind every Republican.
> Cindy is not one of them.
LOL. He was saying I saw a neo-Nazi behind every "Republican."? I
thought he was saying behind every "Republic," i.e., suggesting that I
think every president and prime minister in every Democratic country
on the globe is a neo-Nazi. No wonder I couldn't really parse the
sentence!
I support and vote for Republicans a good share of the time, so no, I
don't think I do think they're all neo-Nazis. That said, in the past,
Shmaryahu has been critical of and labeled middle-of-the-road
Republicans as being "liberals." In his world, anybody who isn't a
rightwing extremist is a liberal, and I say this not as a lame attempt
to hurl baseless accusations at him (as he did to me above), but on
the basis of what he has actually posted in the past. In his laundry
list of evil "liberals," he has included middle-of-the-road
Republicans. I kid you not.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Joe Bruno
> <omega....@gmail.com> said:
>
> >On May 24, 12:38 pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On May 24, 7:00 am, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >> That's right. Rational people are not caught up in your leftwing
> >> conspiracy fantasy world. The majority of us understand that
> >> antisemitism is an issue unto itself and cuts across many different
> >> groups and ideologies. Rational people do not extrapolate that every
> >> instance of antisemitism derives from feminism, environmentalism, gun
> >> control, homosexuality, Watergate, secularism, the USSR, drug use, the
> >> kitchen sink, and everything else in this weird contrived "leftwing
> >> conspiracy" fantasy world the extreme right has invented and you seem
> >> to have totally embraced. The only thing that's been missing in your
> >> posts are references to the Bilderberg group.
> >> Best regards,
> >> ---Cindy S.
>
> >But then normal people do not see a neo-nazi hiding behind ever
> >republic as you do.
>
> Over the years, we've had a couple of posters like that around here
> (mercifully gone now) - people who saw a Nazi behind every Republican.
> Cindy is not one of them.
Really?She claims that anti-semitism is part of the "conservative
camp"
That means she sees a Nazi behind every conservative, not just the
members of the GOP.
mm
<ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
No objection to the part of your post that is snipped.
>>Related:
>>Ron Paul: Gaza is a Concentration Camp, Israel is Starving
>>Palestinians
>>---end cite---
>
>Well, Gaza is a concentration camp.
I don't think so. I'll get to this in another post, I hope.
>Of course, Israel hadn't quite set
>it up that way. But "starving Palestinians"? What's up with that?
>
>Incidentally, a couple of days ago about a dozen Israeli activists
>agitating on behalf of Gilad Shalit blocked an armored truck
>delivering cash from Israel to Gaza with their bodies, and maintained
>the block for several hours.
>
>>Try running a google search for "Rightwing antisemitism," and you'll
>>get tons of hits just like this one.
>
>Certainly, but Fattush had made a good observation: left-wing
>antisemitism is better camouflaged and is thus acceptable in "polite
>society."
I don't think that was her observation at all. I think I've read all
her posts and she made no reference to antisem. in the right except
for neo-nazis. (The neo-nazis don't camouflage their anti-s) No
reference by her to camouflage or it existing but being acceptable.
And I dispute your notion that antisemitism is acceptable when it is
camouflaged. It's not acceptable to the non-antisemites, not even to
those who are anti-s but significatnly less so than the person they
are listening to, just like racism wasn't and isn't acceptable to the
anti-racists and the less racist.
The problem is that people aren't sure if the person is dishing out
racism or anti-semitism or not, and they don't want to accuse someone
when they aren't sure (Wouldn't that be terrible, to accuse someone of
something that didn't apply to him, and if others are present there's
no way to say it without its being an accusation.), and especially
when he was ambiguous enough that he can deny it, and even hold
himself out as the injured party, and portray the anti-antisemite as a
boy who cries wolf, discrediting to some extent every charge made by
any anti-antisemite.
I have to bring back part of your post that I snipped to give one
illustration. Let's assume Cindy said what comes next without knowing
that Rand Paul had sat out Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech, or that
that had not yet happened, and Cindy said especially the last 2 lines:
>>>In one of the most glaring examples of Republican Party cognitive
>>>dissonance, the GOP is positioning itself as the only true American
>>>friend of Israel — but at the same time, moving more and more toward
>>>the pseudo-libertarian anti-Israel politics of Ron Paul and his son
>>>Rand, who strongly advocate eliminating all US aid to the Jewish
>>>state.
And you replied.
>>This is not exactly fair. There's nothing davka anti-Israel in a
>>principled stand of "no foreign aid to anybody." (And what's "pseudo"
>>about it?)
Now what if Paul and some of the other opponents of foreign aid are
strong antisemites and the part of foreign aid they most want
cancelled is that which goes to Israel. Maybe they delight in the
thought, but they camouflage their joy in the thought of cancelling
aid to Israel and pretend it's no more important to them than other
aid. Not only would you accept what he says, without accepting
antisemitism, but since he has camouflaged his attitude, you would
defend him, saying "That's not exactly fair....."
>--
>Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA
--
Joe Bruno
But you said that "anti-semitism" is in the conservative(not the
Liberal) camp."
What the hell does that mean, if not that all conservatives are neo-
Nazis?
mm
wrote:
She said "Antisemitism has traditionally been part of the
*conservative* (not liberal) camp,... "
>What the hell does that mean, if not that all conservatives are neo-
>Nazis?
You seem to think every antisemite is a neo-nazi.
Are you serious? Don't you know the difference?
You also seem to think that "part of" means the entire part. That
some means all. Don't you know the difference?
Even the way you recalled what she wrote, "in the conservative camp".
Do you think that means if one group is in a camp, everyone in the
camp is in that same group? Surely you don't think that, yet your
words make no sense if you don't.
In case it is needed, this is her whole paragraph, On May 26, 4:23 pm,
cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
"Shmaryahu has an obsession with the political "left." To him, "the
left" is evil incarnate. And his agenda is to try to convince other
people to agree with him. Historically speaking, antisemitism has
always been endemic in Europe, and the Enlightenment (liberalism)
actually resulted in much greater tolerance and open-mindedness toward
Jews. Antisemitism has traditionally been part of the *conservative*
(not liberal) camp, and conservative or liberal, antisemitism is
ingrained in Europe and always has been, long before there were tree-
huggers and pinkos just itching to destroy the idyllic world of 1950s
America. "
mm
wrote:
>On May 27, 6:21 am, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
No, it doesn't mean that about conservatives. It doesn't mean it
about members of the GOP either.
Shmaryahu b. Chanoch
> On Fri, 27 May 2011 12:32:28 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
>
> >>Related:
> >>Ron Paul: Gaza is a Concentration Camp, Israel is Starving
> >>Palestinians
> >>---end cite---
>
> >Well, Gaza is a concentration camp.
>
> I don't think so. I'll get to this in another post, I hope.
>
> >Of course, Israel hadn't quite set
> >it up that way. But "starving Palestinians"? What's up with that?
>
Just remember that Rand Paul and his father are more libertarians (big
L) than conservative. In that belief they want all foreign aid done
away with, all of our military returned to the US soil. Some
libertarians even go as far as wanting no active duty military on full
time status over 5 years duration. But the libertarians come out of
the Jeffersonian Democrats (states' rights, anti federalism) and are
at odds with conservatives who tend to be federalists.
If the libertarians have issues with Jews it is due to the movement
called "neo-conservativism" (neo-con). But then many far leftwing
activists also have issues with the neo-con movement.
Cindy stated that what happened in the '60s was the past and that we
have moved on. Yet why can't that same view be held with respect to
christians? Isn't what happened in the Middle Ages by Roman Catholics
merely the past? Haven't the envangelicals rejected replacement
theology? Hasn't the Pope even rejected some of the practices of the
past? Look if the '60s leftwing activies do not effect us now then
more likely that what happened a thousand years ago is less
important. yet we hold on to one while ignoring the other?
cindys
wrote:
snip
>
> Cindy stated that what happened in the '60s was the past and that we
> have moved on. Yet why can't that same view be held with respect to
> christians?
Irrelevant and tangential to the subject at hand. You are completely
missing the point.
>Isn't what happened in the Middle Ages by Roman Catholics
> merely the past? Haven't the evangelicals rejected replacement
> theology? Hasn't the Pope even rejected some of the practices of the
> past? Look if the '60s leftwing activities do not affect us now then
> more likely that what happened a thousand years ago is less
> important.
The issue is not about what happened in the past and whether or not it
still affects us today. You've completely missed the point.
>yet we hold on to one while ignoring the other?
No one's ignoring anything. You've just gone off on a tangent.
My point was that Europe has always been antisemitic. When it was
conservative, it was antisemitic, and now that it's liberal, it's
still antisemitic. Therefore, it is completely illogical to assert
that *the reason* Europe is antisemitic currently is *because* of
liberalism. Europe would be antisemitic no matter what the prevailing
political view. That is the point. There is nothing inherent in
liberalism that lends itself to antisemitism. In fact, historically
speaking, it was conservatives who were antisemitic and liberals who
tolerant.
Whatever you wrote above about the pope's rejection of past practices
and whether or not evangelicals accept or reject replacement theology
is not the least bit related to this discussion. Please try to follow
the argument and stop changing the subject.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
What I would say, quoting others smarter than I, is that there are
three kinds of conservatives, social, libertarian, and economic.
You agree there are at least two kinds, right?
No one here has specified which type or types he is talking about,
although with most people other parts of their text indicates who they
are talking about. And you talk about conservatives more than most
do. People who want to be clear, especially when making broad
unsupportable generalizations, should specify which kind or kinds of
conservatives they are talking about.
With a few extra years Wikip now says: "In the 21st century U.S., some
of the groups calling themselves "conservative" include
* Traditionalist conservatism—Opposition to rapid change in
governmental and societal institutions. This kind of conservatism is
anti-ideological insofar as it emphasizes means (slow change) over
ends (any particular form of government). To the traditionalist,
whether one arrives at a right- or left-wing government is less
important than whether change is effected through rule of law rather
than through revolution and sudden innovation.
* Christian conservatism—[What I called social conservativism]
Conservative Christians are primarily interested in family values.
Typical positions include the view that the United States was founded
as a Christian nation, that abortion is wrong, that there should be
prayer in state schools, and that marriage should be defined as
between one man and one woman and not between two members of the same
sex. Many attack the profanity and sexuality in the media and movies.
* Limited government conservatism ...
* Neoconservatism...
* Paleoconservatism ...
* Libertarian conservatism ..."
They don't even list economic conseevativism. They should.
>In that belief they want all foreign aid done
>away with, all of our military returned to the US soil. Some
>libertarians even go as far as wanting no active duty military on full
>time status over 5 years duration. But the libertarians come out of
>the Jeffersonian Democrats (states' rights, anti federalism) and are
>at odds with conservatives who tend to be federalists.
>
>If the libertarians have issues with Jews it is due to the movement
>called "neo-conservativism" (neo-con).
This is your big mistake. You make it all the time. You think
everything, including personal feelings of individuals, arises out of
political views. You refer to "the libertarians" when we were talking
about Ron Paul. If Ron Paul, and other individuals, libertarians,
conservatives, Republicans, Democrats, liberals and most others "have
issues", your phrase, with Jews as a group, it's not because any of
the named groups teach that. It's because other groups and the Xian
church teach and have taught everything from disdain and dislike up to
hatred for Jews and Judaism.
Not that everyone believes all they teach, but even many people of
goodwill are hard pressed to refute negative remarks about Jews when
others make them, and mostly they stay silent.
> But then many far leftwing
>activists also have issues with the neo-con movement.
>
>Cindy stated that what happened in the '60s was the past and that we
>have moved on. Yet why can't that same view be held with respect to
>christians? Isn't what happened in the Middle Ages by Roman Catholics
>merely the past? Haven't the envangelicals rejected replacement
>theology?
No. I think when Jews are their audience, they try to butter up the
Jews and tell them how special they are. But that's not their only
story. My Catholic friend who gave that up and became evangelical and
"born-again" called me up a couple years after that, happy and excited
and told me, "I just found out that I'm Jewish". My first thought was
that I wish I had known that when we lived in the same city. I would
have been interested in her. But practically her next sentence was
"All Christians are Jews."
And replacement theology was given a name and that name was used for a
while, but all of xianity is replacement theology. What did they name
their bible? The "New Testament". What does testament mean? It's
not just a doctrine or a formal piece of writing. It means a
covenant. The overriding notion of Xianity is that the covenant
between Jews and God is gone and a new one has replaced it between
Xians and God. They think they have a covenant that replaces ours
and that they have replaced us. Whether they have always called it
replacement theology or not, whether they call it supersessionism or
fulfillment theology, it's replacement theology, and I don't think
even Xians who know much about Xianity deny it.
> Hasn't the Pope even rejected some of the practices of the
>past?
Two popes did, John the 23rd and either because he believed it or
because he didn't want to interrupt John's work after he died. And
for both, because they were horrified by Holocaust, and knew and
probably knew the role the Catholic church had played in it.
Nothing much happened afaik after 1965, until recently. The current
pope is a mixed bag, afaik, but he gave permission for the Latin mass
again, without requiring that the parts nasty and hostile to Jews be
removed. I'm pretty sure he was asked to exclude them, and I'm sure
he knows it by heart, and I'm certain he could have excluded that part
and kept all his pro-Latin members happy, (except for mel gibson of
course, who has long promoted the Latin Mass and also harbored hatred
for Jews.)
And who knows how much the changes have been relayed to the bulk of
Catholics or accepted by them?
>Look if the '60s leftwing activies do not effect us now then
>more likely that what happened a thousand years ago is less
>important. yet we hold on to one while ignoring the other?
The parts I didn't' answer above are relevant to what Cindy said and
she can answer, but no argument you have about the 60's affects who
and why people now are antisemites.
Joe Bruno
it elsewhere. hw ]
On May 27, 9:47 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2011 15:26:17 +0000 (UTC), Joe Bruno <ajta...@att.net>
which you obviously cannot.
Therefore, it obviously means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Joe Bruno
> On May 27, 12:42 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> snip
>
>
>
> > Cindy stated that what happened in the '60s was the past and that we
> > have moved on. Yet why can't that same view be held with respect to
> > christians?
>
> Irrelevant and tangential to the subject at hand. You are completely
> missing the point.
>
> >Isn't what happened in the Middle Ages by Roman Catholics
> > merely the past? Haven't the evangelicals rejected replacement
> > theology? Hasn't the Pope even rejected some of the practices of the
> > past? Look if the '60s leftwing activities do not affect us now then
> > more likely that what happened a thousand years ago is less
> > important.
>
> The issue is not about what happened in the past and whether or not it
> still affects us today. You've completely missed the point.
>
> >yet we hold on to one while ignoring the other?
>
> No one's ignoring anything. You've just gone off on a tangent.
>
> My point was that Europe has always been antisemitic.
Nonsense. There are parts of Europe that have never had pogroms or any
other evidence of anti-Semitism.
I give you as examples
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
Switzerland
Wales
Scotland
Belgium
Romania
This is typical Cindy materal,unsupported by evidence and full of
childish exagerration and inaccuracies.
Harry Weiss
> On May 27, 2:49?pm, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > On May 27, 12:42?pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <omega....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >
> >
> > > Cindy stated that what happened in the '60s was the past and that we
> > > christians? ?
> >
> > Irrelevant and tangential to the subject at hand. You are completely
> > missing the point.
> >
> > >Isn't what happened in the Middle Ages by Roman Catholics
> > > theology? ?Hasn't the Pope even rejected some of the practices of the
> > > past? ? Look if the '60s leftwing activities do not affect us now then
> > > more likely that what happened a thousand years ago is less
> >
> > The issue is not about what happened in the past and whether or not it
> > still affects us today. You've completely missed the point.
> >
> > >yet we hold on to one while ignoring the other?
> >
> > No one's ignoring anything. You've just gone off on a tangent.
> >
> > My point was that Europe has always been antisemitic.
> Nonsense. There are parts of Europe that have never had pogroms or any
> other evidence of anti-Semitism.
> I give you as examples
> Sweden
> Norway
Norway was occupied by Hitler with many collaberators helping most Jews
that did not escape to Sweeden to be killed.
> Ireland
> Switzerland
That is why they collaberated with Hitler.
> Wales
> Scotland
They were part of the Brittish expulsion of Jews.
> Belgium
> Romania
Both of the above have had numerous cases of antisemitsm and maassacres of
Jews.
> This is typical Cindy materal,unsupported by evidence and full of
> childish exagerration and inaccuracies.
Perhaps it is that your fantasy does not agree with reality.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Joe Bruno
> On Fri, 27 May 2011 15:54:52 +0000 (UTC), Joe Bruno <ajta...@att.net>
To me, it is irrelevant. A Jew- hater is a threat to us, regardless
of what he calls himself or what uniform he wears.
>
> You also seem to think that "part of" means the entire part. That
> some means all. Don't you know the difference?
There is no logical difference linguistically.She said the
conservative camp, whatever in Neptune's
Locker that means.If she meant there are some anti-Semites among the
Conservatives she would
have said just that, but she said "the camp", which does not exist
anyway.
I don't live with other conservatives. I only share some ideals with
some of them.
If there were such a camp and it did include anti-semities, certainly
David Horowitz and Michael Medved and Milton Friedman and I and Morris
Goodman would not include ourselves in it-we are all Jews.Apparently,
you and Cindy are so intent on painting a negative image of
conservatives, that you are willing to claim that Jews associate with
those who hate them and lie about them.
How silly can you get?
>