(UK) United Synagogue, Adath, Federation - what is the difference?
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
explain this? Seems that plenty of pulpit rabbis in MO type shuls in the UK
are Lubavitchers in any event.
To which stream does the shul in Wormwood Scrubs belong? That is the one I
plan to visit if I ever make it back to the UK.
Ian
Fiona
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania) wrote in message ...
The Wormwooder Hassidim, affectionately known as Scrubbers.
Fiona
Henry Goodman
"Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)" <icsrc...@matrix.ru> wrote
in message news:akoh20$1l1te0$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
Shavua Tov
The United Synagogue (US) is the mainstream organisation of Anglo-Jewry (at
least in London, most provincial synagogues are affiliated). It was founded
in the early 19th century. It is nominally Orthodox but members cover a wide
spectrum of observance. probably the majority only turn up on RH and YK. It
has mostly very large 'cathedral-type' shuls. The choral synagogue in Moscow
which I enjoyed attending a few weeks ago would fit it very well.
At the end of the 19th century, there was large-scale immigration into
England from Eastern Europe, mostly into the slum areas of London's East
End. These immigrants did not fit in to the over formal shuls of the US and
founded many small shuls and stiebels which eventually combined together to
form the Federation of synagogues. Nowadays the federation is slightly to
the right of the US but the differences are minimal and mainly political.
There was another mass immigration, this time mostly from Germany, in the
1930s. Again these immigrants did not fit in to the existing anglo-Jewish
institutions. they founded their own shuls which are linked by the Union of
Orthodox Hebrew Congregations, aka the Adath.
While the differences between the services at Adath and United shuls differ
little, the attendees are very different. Members of Adath shuls are all
shomrei Shabbat and you will not see cars parked around the corner and
ladies openly carrying handbags that you will see at United shuls.
These three organisations are all Ashkenazi. There is a separate
organisation of Sefardic Jews centred on the historic Bevis Marks shul built
in 1701.
A consequence of this history is that in London there are 4 separate batei
din and 4 separate kashrut authorities. This is regrettable and wastes a lot
of money in duplication.
There are certainly Rabbis of Lubavitch affiliation at many United and
Federation shuls.
BTW we do not use the terms Modern orthodox and Ultra orthodox in the UK.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Fiona
Henry Goodman wrote in message ...
>
>
>
>"Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)" <icsrc...@matrix.ru>
wrote
>in message news:akoh20$1l1te0$1...@ID-98143.news.dfncis.de...
>> ???? Any of you loyal subjects of QE2 have any info or links that might
>> explain this? Seems that plenty of pulpit rabbis in MO type shuls in the
>UK
>> are Lubavitchers in any event.
>>
>> To which stream does the shul in Wormwood Scrubs belong? That is the one
I
>> plan to visit if I ever make it back to the UK.
<snip>
>There are certainly Rabbis of Lubavitch affiliation at many United and
>Federation shuls.
The US had a big problem for many years, it just wasn't generating enough
new Rabbis to fill the vacancies that came up in the their shuls. And the
position of US Rabbi just wasn't seen as an exciting job for nice Jewish
boys, particularly in the smaller and older communities. As a result the
only people applying (and showing enthusiasm) for the majority of US Rabbi's
were Lubavitchers.
The domino effect had a positive effect in the end. Finally the US realised
that they were failing their communities, and kicked off the Jewish Renewal
programmes. Realising that many of the youngsters who were potential Rabbis
were more likely to make aliyah than stay in the bleak spiritual desserts of
England, they started learning connections with Yeshivot in Israel
(Brovender's springs to mind) to inject some of that Israeli positivity into
the drab and dreary old US. The last time I had anything to do with the US
things did look to be improving, but that was the mid-90s so I don't know
how things stand now.
Fiona
Charles Vitez
correct one small point on this posting, where I think Henry may be a little
out of date.
The social and employment profile of the membership of the United Synagogue,
up to the 1960s and even into the 1970s probably meant that far too many
were, perforce, working on Shabbat. This has changed considerably in the
last two decades.
While there are still members of the United Synagogue who, sadly, only turn
up for the yomim norayim (New Year and Day of Atonement), the vast majority
do come on shabbat morning and a smaller proportion every morning and
evening.
The ethos has always been Torah true, but, in practice, many members were a
little bit lax in this respect. It is not that they had a problem with the
correctness of the theory, it was more a case of suiting practice to the
theory. Es is schwer tzi zeyn a yid! **
Charles Vitez
** it is difficult to be a Jew
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:EWac9.5652$hA4.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
Charles Vitez
candidates sadly still remains with us. The London School of Jewish Studies
has never really been able to fill the need (we have around 70 United
Synagogues to staff and there are at least as many more within the
Federation and the Provincial communities; but there are rarely more than 3
or 4 candidates studying at any one time).
Gateshead Yeshiva produces a few candidates, some more come from other
English speaking countries but, apart from the US/LSJS, the only
organisation that seems to be dedicated to our survival as a Jewish
community is Lubavitch.
Charles Vitez
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:akssg3$pco$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
Z
<fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> writes
Spiritual desserts? What, like Angels Delight? :-)
>they started learning connections with Yeshivot in Israel
>(Brovender's springs to mind) to inject some of that Israeli positivity into
>the drab and dreary old US. The last time I had anything to do with the US
>things did look to be improving, but that was the mid-90s so I don't know
>how things stand now.
>
>
>Fiona
Angel(s?) Delight is a brand of pudding.
--
Z
Remove Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
Henry Goodman
(reply at bottom HPG)
"Charles Vitez" <vi...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:akvdqg$1dp$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a Junior Warden
in a small United synagogue. I agree that things have improved in recent
years but not to the extent you say. I know lots of Anglo-Jews who only go
to shul on RH and YK and hardly keep Shabbat at all.
It cannot possibly be true that the vast majority attend every Shabbat. Why
do so many need to arrange overflow services for RH and YK? I would be
interested to see numbers for attendance at selected United Synagogues on an
average Shabbat and on Kol Nidre. I am sure the latter would be more than
double the former.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd (Tirana, Albania)
> Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a Junior
Warden
> in a small United synagogue.
Junior WARDEN in a synagogue? Certainly this had to have been either my
beloved Wormwood Scrubs, or perhaps (has vesholom) Broadmoor.
Ian
Jonathan J. Baker
>[ Moderator's Comment: I said Warden not Warder HPG ]
>"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>> Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a Junior
>> Warden
>> in a small United synagogue.
>Junior WARDEN in a synagogue? Certainly this had to have been either my
>beloved Wormwood Scrubs, or perhaps (has vesholom) Broadmoor.
Junior Warden? Isn't that a Freemason's office?
--
Jonathan Baker | Misheyatza Tishebov marbim besimcha?
jjb...@panix.com |
Web page: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
Henry Goodman
"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:al2b8u$psh$2...@reader1.panix.com...
> In < "Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd \(Tirana, Albania\)"
<icsrcoup...@matrix.ru> writes:
>
> >[ Moderator's Comment: I said Warden not Warder HPG ]
> >"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> >> Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a Junior
> >> Warden
> >> in a small United synagogue.
>
> >Junior WARDEN in a synagogue? Certainly this had to have been either my
> >beloved Wormwood Scrubs, or perhaps (has vesholom) Broadmoor.
>
> Junior Warden? Isn't that a Freemason's office?
>
I don't know anything about Freemasonry except that my father o"h" was one.
In the United synagogue the gabbaim are called wardens.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
> I don't know anything about Freemasonry except that my father o"h" was
one.
> In the United synagogue the gabbaim are called wardens.
Interesting indeed. That is what they are called in Creedmoor as well, where
they tend to wear a kittel all year round!
Ian
Jonathan J. Baker
>"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> >[ Moderator's Comment: I said Warden not Warder HPG ]
>> >> Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a Junior
>> >> Warden in a small United synagogue.
>> >Junior WARDEN in a synagogue? Certainly this had to have been either my
>> >beloved Wormwood Scrubs, or perhaps (has vesholom) Broadmoor.
>> Junior Warden? Isn't that a Freemason's office?
>I don't know anything about Freemasonry except that my father o"h" was one.
>In the United synagogue the gabbaim are called wardens.
Looking at a Mason-lodge website, they have
Worshipful Master, Senior Warden, Junior Warden, Senior Deacon, Junior
Deacon, Tyler, IIRC.
I also note that some of these titles are present in Episcopal churches.
Perhaps both synagogues and Masons drew the titles from the Anglicans?
Fiona
Henry Goodman wrote in message ...
>
>
>
>
What about the Beagles?
Fiona
Harry Weiss
And I though a warden was the person who runs a prison.
> --
> Henry Goodman
> henry....@virgin.net
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Henry Goodman
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:al2vto$skh$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
Beadles?
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Jonathan J. Baker
>> >In the United synagogue the gabbaim are called wardens.
>> What about the Beagles?
>Beadles?
They're the ones that observe Shabbos on the Eighth Day of the Week?
Daven every day, God.
Tfillin on my head
One thing I can say, God
Shulbudget's in the red.
Stand for, shlishi, stand for, shlishi
What is your mattanah,
Eight days a week
Eight days a week
Eight days a week...
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
As long as it isn't in the Dannemora Shul :-)
[In US parlance, "warden" is the one who runs the local prison. Dannemora
was the infamous prison of all the 1930 gangster films with Edward
G. Robinson and others]
Josh
>
> --
> Henry Goodman
> henry....@virgin.net
Fiona
Harry Weiss wrote in message ...
In English English a wardeR looks after prisoners, a wardeN looks after
property, both include supervisory tasks. The root is the same: to watch
over something (from an Old French variation of Guardian). The Anglo-Jewish
context unfortunately is borrowed from Church-Warden. Many non-US shuls use
Gabbaim, anyway that is my experience in the Sephardi kehillah.
Fiona
Fiona
Henry Goodman wrote in message ...
>
>
>
>"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:al2vto$skh$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> Henry Goodman wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> >news:al2b8u$psh$2...@reader1.panix.com...
>> >> In < "Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd \(Tirana, Albania\)"
>> ><icsrcoup...@matrix.ru> writes:
>> >>
>> >> >[ Moderator's Comment: I said Warden not Warder HPG ]
>> >> >"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>> >> >> Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a
>Junior
>> >> >> Warden
>> >> >> in a small United synagogue.
>> >>
>> >> >Junior WARDEN in a synagogue? Certainly this had to have been either
>my
>> >> >beloved Wormwood Scrubs, or perhaps (has vesholom) Broadmoor.
>> >>
>> >> Junior Warden? Isn't that a Freemason's office?
>> >>
>> >
>> >I don't know anything about Freemasonry except that my father o"h" was
>one.
>> >In the United synagogue the gabbaim are called wardens.
>>
>> What about the Beagles?
>
Yeah, I forgot the smiley. I always thought that title was hilarious...
Fiona
Abe Kohen
And what do the Ashkenazi English call the sexton?
Abe
Z
Chronicles, Ltd (Tirana, Albania)" <icsrcoup...@matrix.ru> writes
What is a Junior Warden's responsibilities in a shul?
Fiona
Abe Kohen wrote in message ...
Dunno, what's a sexton?
Abe Kohen
Main Entry: sexton
Pronunciation: 'seks-t&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English secresteyn, sexteyn, from Middle French
secrestain, from Medieval Latin sacristanus -- more at SACRISTAN
Date: 14th century
: a church officer or employee who takes care of the church property and
performs related minor duties (as ringing the bell for services and digging
graves)
Eliyahu
Likewise, a ward can be a hospital or prison wing where people are watched,
or a person in a guardianship, who is also watched. I'll double-check it in
my dictionary when I get out to my office and repost if I'm in error here.
Eliyahu
Harry Weiss
Z
<jjb...@panix.com> writes
>In < "Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd \(Tirana, Albania\)"
><icsrcoup...@matrix.ru> writes:
>
>>[ Moderator's Comment: I said Warden not Warder HPG ]
>>"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>>> Well I may be out of date in that it is 40 years since I was a Junior
>>> Warden
>>> in a small United synagogue.
>
>>Junior WARDEN in a synagogue? Certainly this had to have been either my
>>beloved Wormwood Scrubs, or perhaps (has vesholom) Broadmoor.
>
>Junior Warden? Isn't that a Freemason's office?
>
Fiona
Eliyahu wrote in message ...
My dictionary has that too for Ward (a place), [OE weard = OHG warta; to
watch] but for Warder and Warden it has separate entries both of which come
from the same Old French *garder* --> *wardere* and *wardein* in Old
Northern French. No doubt a better dictionary would also draw the obvious
connection between the Old Higher German and the Old Northern French words.
Anyway we are off topic now.
Fiona
Henry Goodman
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:al3q7p$1mlcpk$1...@ID-102750.news.dfncis.de...
Beadle as was indicated by Fiona previously.
--
Henry Goodman
henry....@virgin.net
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd (Tirana, Albania)
> >And what do the Ashkenazi English call the sexton?
Mohammed?
Ian
Z
<ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> writes
That would be a Sacrist. I met one a couple of months ago when the club
was moving it's telescope to King's College. He looks after the
building. The term was previously unfamiliar to me.
Charles Vitez
incredulity. If you are wondering why I am just that little bit annoyed, let
me explain.
The United Synagogue in the UK is a very English establishment and a jolly
good job too!
The style of the US reflects its membership. We do not crave for a synthetic
schtetl where every second congregant is a yiddisch speaking Tevye. We are
English speaking Jews of the here and now. That means we are happy to live
in this country and are loyal to its Queen and government and, to be frank,
we have a great deal to be thankful for. For the majority of you and your
parents, America was the land of opportunity, for me and my family, this is
the country that gave me my chances in life.
In an earlier post someone mentioned that the basic constitution of the US
is sanctioned by an Act of Parliament passed in the mid 19th century. Just
what did you imagine that the original framers of that constitution would do
when they wanted the Bill steered through Parliament? Annoy the
Parliamentarians by inserting into the document incomprehensible foreign
words like "rabbi, chazan, gabbai or shamess"?
They tried to be user friendly and used immediately recognisable words like
"minister, reader, warden and beadle". Each is a pretty good description of
the function in a Jewish synagogue setting.
The continued use of these quaint English terms does not detract from the
essential orthodoxy of the US. We have not forsaken yiddischkeit by being
anglicised. Our services remain very much the classic services you would
find in any orthodox synagogue anywhere in the world. The prayers are in
Hebrew and we do not hold with shortcuts to save on time. The only English
you will hear, apart from announcements, is the prayer for the Queen & Royal
family and the sermon.
To sum it up. Poking fun at the quaint characteristics of the US is about as
funny to me as a joke about stammering would be to a stammerer. We have
plenty of problems in the US but calling the "warden" a "gabbai" or the
"beadle" a "schamess" is not about to solve those.
Having got that off my chest, I wish all of you a kesivo v'hasimo taivo.
Charles Vitez
"Z" <po...@imaZZZZris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uu56DVVF...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
Fiona
Charles Vitez wrote in message ...
>The continued use of these quaint English terms does not detract from the
>essential orthodoxy of the US. We have not forsaken yiddischkeit by being
>anglicised.
I don't think anyone was trying to say anything like what you are
suggesting. Apart from Ian's usual quips, there was some surprise from our
American cousins about the term Warden, because of their use of Warden were
we use Warder, i.e. in relation to prisons. Apart from that people just
wanted to understand what the "quaint English" terms mean and how they
relate to the otherwise global Hebrew terms. I'll admit to personally
finding the term beadle funny because I just cannot shake the image of
Snoopy (the beagle of Peanuts fame) from my mind when I hear it.
Tizku shannim rabbot,
Fiona
Eliyahu
"Charles Vitez" <vi...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:al7jf3$lvn$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>
> To sum it up. Poking fun at the quaint characteristics of the US is about
as
> funny to me as a joke about stammering would be to a stammerer. We have
> plenty of problems in the US but calling the "warden" a "gabbai" or the
> "beadle" a "schamess" is not about to solve those.
>
I don't think there was an intent to poke fun at the UK for these terms.
Rather, it was a lack of familiarity with "beadle" in any context and with
"warden" in a religious one. It's the same sort of confusion about
vocabulary that anyone on either side of the pond encounters when dealing
with an automobile imported from the other nation, i.e., whether the
compartment in the rear of an automobile is called a trunk or a boot, when
the actual thing resembles neither of them. As one of my friends in
Scotland tells it, we're two countries separated by a common language. :-)
> Having got that off my chest, I wish all of you a kesivo v'hasimo taivo.
>
Likewise.
Eliyahu
Henry Goodman
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:al7lhe$9ev$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
Personally I find it funny that Americans call a shammas a sexton and a
chazzan a cantor.
Henry Goodman
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
Depending on their talents (or lack thereof), I have been known to call
chazzanim by terms other than cantor.
Ian
Z
<vi...@btinternet.com> writes
>I have been reading the latter part of this thread with less amusement than
>incredulity. If you are wondering why I am just that little bit annoyed, let
>me explain.
>
>The United Synagogue in the UK is a very English establishment and a jolly
>good job too!
It's essentially London and home counties oriented (as per Jewish
population) and I'm not sure how far North it extends above Manchester.
Glasgow is a place and people I try to avoid maybe there is a United
synagogue there but I think in the fringes, like in Aberdeen affiliation
to US is for burial services only.
>
>The style of the US reflects its membership. We do not crave for a synthetic
>schtetl where every second congregant is a yiddisch speaking Tevye.
Germaniify the US? Never.
--
CSR
ako...@xenon.stanford.edu says...
> > Dunno, what's a sexton?
>
> Main Entry: sexton
> Pronunciation: 'seks-t&n
> Function: noun
> Etymology: Middle English secresteyn, sexteyn, from Middle French
> secrestain, from Medieval Latin sacristanus -- more at SACRISTAN
> Date: 14th century
> : a church officer or employee who takes care of the church property and
> performs related minor duties (as ringing the bell for services and digging
> graves)
Hence "The warden told the sexton and the sexton tolled the bell".
--
Colin in Stavtrup
(To reply be email, remove gibberish
from the above address)