An Orthodox Jew and Pornography
nom...@webtv.net
services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
people for payment who never visited the sites.
The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
Thank you,
Allan
Tonibaruch
Aren't they aware about any goysch pornographer??? I'm surprised.
Google a bit and provide them with an illustrated booklet.
Tb
>
> Thank you,
>
> Allan
>
>
--
In mancanza di meglio, la risposta migliore rimane: "autodifesa".
Micha Berger
: Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
: Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
: Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
: I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
Why accept the job of defending every Jew? Simply say what you did
here: What he's doing is against Judaism, but as in every community,
not everyone is a role model. (Or: as in every family, there are some
people we prefer not to talk about.)
-mi
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
Chano
<nom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:18283-415...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net...
Explain to your non-Jewish "friends" that there are practicing Christians
who are also immoral!
Chano
>
> Thank you,
>
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
"Chano" <ch...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
But the Christians claim that there was some Jew once who was
immorTal...
:-) |^^| .| !!
-Shlomo-
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> There is an individual I know who provides internet collection
> services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
> investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
> people for payment who never visited the sites.
>
> The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
Externally, he may LOOK like an Orthodox Jew, but someone who enables
porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.
>
> Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
> Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
> Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
>
According to Jewish law a Jew who engages in gambling or other nefarious
activities is an ineligible witness in court and is treated contemptuously.
Josh
Eliyahu Rooff
be just a distrust of webtv, but I smell a troll.
Eliyahu
cindys
"Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10llfse...@corp.supernews.com...
Thank you. I was just going to say the same thing. And I would have thought
so with or without webTV.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Chano
Right you are Elijah, something definitely smells.
Chano
>
> Eliyahu
>
>
Dan Kimmel
news:cjefq5$vin$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> > services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
> > investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
> > people for payment who never visited the sites.
> >
> > The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
>
>
> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.
Maybe that's the shul he DOESN'T go to?
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
Larisa
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:41:18 +0000 (UTC), nom...@webtv.net wrote:
> : Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
> : Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
> : Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
>
> : I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
>
> Why accept the job of defending every Jew? Simply say what you did
> here: What he's doing is against Judaism, but as in every community,
> not everyone is a role model. (Or: as in every family, there are some
> people we prefer not to talk about.)
>
> -mi
Does halacha prohibit pornography, though? It certainly doesn't come
up in the list of perversions in the Torah - was there a rabbinic
prohibition?
LM
Shlomo Chaim
> services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
> investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
> people for payment who never visited the sites.
>
> The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
Maybe he's Amish. Peek under his hat and see if he's wearing a yarmulke.
Ken Bloom
The Mishna Berurah (don't remember the reference, sorry) mentions a
prohibition against owning tapestries with lewd images on them. The Kitzur
Shulchan Aruch (150:5) states that it is forbidden to look at a woman's
genetalia.
--
I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment.
See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures.
"All the spots that a man sees on others, are his own."
-- from the Mishna, interpreted according to the Ba'al Shem Tov
Arthur Kamlet
Amish don't have moustaches. Gene Wilder made that same mistake.
--
__
Art Kamlet ArtKamlet @ AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH
cindys
"Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote in message
news:cjeq9r$g5a$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Amish don't exactly encourage
pornography either.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
BlackMonk
nom...@webtv.net writes:
> > There is an individual I know who provides internet collection
> > services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
> > investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
> > people for payment who never visited the sites.
> >
> > The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
>
>
> Externally, he may LOOK like an Orthodox Jew, but someone who enables
> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.
>
Sure he is. Many people don't live up to their beliefs. Many aren't even
consistent in those beliefs. He might not be a good Orthodox Jew, but do you
judge Conservative and Reform Judaism only by their best?
>
>
> >
> > Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
> > Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
> > Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
> >
>
>
> According to Jewish law a Jew who engages in gambling or other nefarious
> activities is an ineligible witness in court and is treated
contemptuously.
It sounds like he's the "muscle" for their collection activities. If so,
supporting pornography might not be the worst thing that he's done.
nom...@webtv.net
Reports web site and enter "Alyon Technologies" on the company search
engine.
They have over 1200 complaints to the FTC. 13 State Attorney Generals
are suing the boss and his organization
.
Move down about 20 angry postings and begin to read upwards. You will
suddenly come across some comments by the owner of Rip-Off defending
the company and the owner. Absolutely implausible and a stunning
surprise to those who were hurt by Alyon. (The owner of Rip Off has
been sued by Alyon so there may be reasons for the change of heart.)
As part of his defense of the owner it is mentioned that he is a
"practicing Orthodox Jew", strongly implying that is another reason for
believing him.
My grandfather was a beloved Rabbi with a congregation in New Rochelle,
New York. So I am unhappy that an Orthodox Jew would engage in such
practices.
I had hoped to respond on Rip-Off reports.
.
However, I now will not. There are, as some of you have said,
practicing Orthodox Jews and Christians (and probably a few Buddhists
and Hindus) who can separate their beliefs from their actions.
Allan
Larisa
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:05:47 +0000, Larisa wrote:
>
> > Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message news:
> > <2rvh6uF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> >> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:41:18 +0000 (UTC), nom...@webtv.net wrote:
> >> : Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
> >> : Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
> >> : Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
>
> >> : I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
> >>
> >> Why accept the job of defending every Jew? Simply say what you did
> >> here: What he's doing is against Judaism, but as in every community,
> >> not everyone is a role model. (Or: as in every family, there are some
> >> people we prefer not to talk about.)
> >>
> >> -mi
> >
> > Does halacha prohibit pornography, though? It certainly doesn't come
> > up in the list of perversions in the Torah - was there a rabbinic
> > prohibition?
>
> The Mishna Berurah (don't remember the reference, sorry) mentions a
> prohibition against owning tapestries with lewd images on them.
Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
> The Kitzur
> Shulchan Aruch (150:5) states that it is forbidden to look at a woman's
> genitalia.
OK. Thanks. But is male pornography - with male genitals on it - permitted, then?
LM
DarrinT68
>From: "BlackMonk" Blac...@email.msn.com
>Date: 9/29/04 7:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <2s0va5F...@uni-berlin.de>
>
>
><bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>news:cjefq5$vin$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>> In article <18283-415...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net>,
>nom...@webtv.net writes:
>> > There is an individual I know who provides internet collection
>> > services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
>> > investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
>> > people for payment who never visited the sites.>> >>> > The man is a
practicing Orthodox Jew.>>
>> Externally, he may LOOK like an Orthodox Jew, but someone who enables
>> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.>>
As Abraham Foxman (Anti-Defamation League) once said: "Jews who enter the
pornography industry have done so as individuals pursuing the American dream,
not as representatives of their religious group." Regardless, is there anything
wrong with mainstream erotica!? Is there anything wrong with consenting adults
who choose to pursue careers in that medium? Is there anything wrong with
adults who choose to watch that medium? Is there a man alive who hasn't sat
down to a nice juicy porn?eh In terms of sales, adult films surpass every other
genre of film. Yes, Jews even disproportionately excel in the erotic industry:
the #1 adult entertainer of all-time happens to be Jewish: Ron "The Hedgehog"
Jeremy (b. Hyatt, Queens, NY). Seymour Butts (b. Adam Glasser, NYC) is one of
the most successful pornographers of his day! He even has his own hit SHOwtime
reality t.v. series, "Family Business." And how can we forget about another
legendary sweet NYer in that biz: Al Goldstein & Screw Magazine?eh In the end,
sex has never been seen as sinful in Judaism! That's why other religions
ultimately condemned their gene pool by abstaining from sex. Jews, on the other
hand, took quite seriously the first commandment to mankind - to be fruitful
and multiply. Jews never preach pro-life, abstinence, or the forbiddance of
pre-marital sex. Judaism is the practical religion! If you have yet to, pickup
"Kosher Sex" by Rabbi Shmuley!! -D, NYC "Three of the largest adult film
companies were founded by Jews - VIVID (Steve Hirsch), WICKED (Steve Orenstein)
& AVN (Paul Fishbein)
Z
the models for the website was in fact a porn 'actress' Kari Gold from
Central Europe.
She had been presented to Jdate as a 22 y.o. model but it turned out she
is an 18y.o. pornstar.
--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MEhQWmN1...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
admit to recognizing her from her movies? :-)
Eliyahu
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Yes.
Josh
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> I am the writer of the original post. Go to the Rip-Off
> Reports web site and enter "Alyon Technologies" on the company search
> engine.
>
> They have over 1200 complaints to the FTC. 13 State Attorney Generals
> are suing the boss and his organization
I hope the slimeball gets 20 years in the Federal Penetentiary.
Josh
Eliyahu Rooff
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cjhgnm$7te$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <3401-415...@storefull-3232.bay.webtv.net>,
> nom...@webtv.net writes:
>> I am the writer of the original post. Go to the
>> Rip-Off
>> Reports web site and enter "Alyon Technologies" on the company
>> search
>> engine.
>>
>> They have over 1200 complaints to the FTC. 13 State Attorney
>> Generals
>> are suing the boss and his organization
>
>
> I hope the slimeball gets 20 years in the Federal Penetentiary.
>
> Josh
>
that there's an accusation, followed by an indictment or information
if there is enough evidence to warrant it, and then a trial.
Customarily, we don't decide on a sentence unless there's also a
conviction. All we've seen here is an accusation... Is that enough
to call someone a slimeball and decide how he should be punished?
Eliyahu
Eliyahu Rooff
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cjhgnb$7sa$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <34e2d56d.04092...@posting.google.com>,
> purple...@yahoo.com (Larisa) writes:
>> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message
>> news:<2rvh6uF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:41:18 +0000 (UTC), nom...@webtv.net
>>> wrote:
>>> : Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
>>> : Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such
>>> services.
>>> : Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are
>>> wrong?
>>>
>>> : I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
>>>
>>> Why accept the job of defending every Jew? Simply say what you
>>> did
>>> here: What he's doing is against Judaism, but as in every
>>> community,
>>> not everyone is a role model. (Or: as in every family, there are
>>> some
>>> people we prefer not to talk about.)
>>>
>>> -mi
>>
>> Does halacha prohibit pornography, though? It certainly doesn't
>> come
>
>
> Yes.
>
writing, for instance... at what point does it become prohibited or
objectionable? Photographs.... what can they show and what is
disallowed? Elbows? Shoulders? Midriff? Cleavage? Same thing with
movies... is it a question of what they show, or of how people react
to it? A photograph of genitalia in a medical text shows pretty much
the same detail as would be seen in Penthouse, so what are the
criteria by which we differentiate? Even those justices in our
Supreme Court who wanted to ban obscenity admitted that they
couldn't define it precisely enough to enact laws on the question.
Eliyahu
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
I checked GOOGLE for Alyon Technologies and went through 30 or 40 sites,
espcially those from State Attorney Generals who are suing Touboul and
the press release from Federal Trade Commission.
Josh
>
> Eliyahu
>
>
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Sex (and what is sexual) is permitted only in the context of the
relations between husband and wife. Laws of modesty are delineated
in Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAYIM 240 and more specifically in EVEN
HA'EZER 21 (and 23)
> objectionable? Photographs.... what can they show and what is
> disallowed? Elbows? Shoulders? Midriff? Cleavage? Same thing with
> movies... is it a question of what they show, or of how people react
> to it? A photograph of genitalia in a medical text shows pretty much
> the same detail as would be seen in Penthouse, so what are the
> criteria by which we differentiate? Even those justices in our
> Supreme Court who wanted to ban obscenity admitted that they
> couldn't define it precisely enough to enact laws on the question.
>
Everything except that appearing in medical textbooks is prohibited.
[I assure there is nothing prurient or sexual in what appears in
medical textbooks]
Josh
> Eliyahu
>
>
Z
Is the ' Orthodox' Jew in question the owner of the adult website or is
he from the collections agency?
I used to word in fraud.
This is essentially pop-up fraud. A pop-up runs a simple AT script on a
victims computer which disconnects the modem then re-connects the modem
to a premium rate number.
The telcos should have been wise to this sort of thing, software* will
pro-actively monitor lines which have disproportionately high revenue or
high number of calls to them on a particular day or number of calls
from a certain area on them or some other similar algorithm which
identifies and flags up behaviour by originator or receiver outside of
regular calling pattern.
Some estimates are that 5 p.c. of revenues are telcos are due to
fraudulent calls. Before the web had such popularity the fraudsters used
to have to break into offices on Friday night to dial premium rate
numbers which paid a proportion of the call revenue to them, steal
mobile telephones, wiretap lines, or hack into private exchanges.
Best thing to prevent this from home is to ask your Telco to bar all
outgoing premium rate numbers or subscribe to a DSL service where
hacking a VPI/VCI pair is not possible. Keep anti-virus and anti-spyware
software up to date. Keep one's personal information personal, password
protect ones cellphone, electronic files containing personal information
etc and change passwords regularly. Be careful who one is giving one's
personal details to, even one's name.
The above paragraph is general advice also given by Jewish community
security agencies to organisations and individuals holding personal
data.
* Software includes ECTEL Fraudview, Amdocs Sleuth and Integrity+ ,
Geneva, Kenan Arbor,
Y. Macales
> services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
> investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
> people for payment who never visited the sites.
>
> The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
>
There are two words in modern Hebrew. One is "dati". It is
used to mean "religiously observant". There is another word
"tzaddik", which means a righteous, saintly person. Obviously,
they are not necessarily the same thing.
Look in the book "Em HaBanim S'mecha" by Rav Teichtal (may
G-d avenge his blood!) . He describes "religious" Jews gloating
over the murder of other Jews in the Holocaust because they
had the "wrong ideology". Jews, Orthodox or not, are like
every other human group, with good, medium and bad people.
There is also the "yetzer hara" (evil inclination) which can
take otherwise good people and in a fit of "temporary insanity"
do bad things they wouldn't ordinarily do in other conditions.
I have no need to apologize for what others do, but we do have
an educational responsibility to our children to try to point
out unacceptable behavior.
Z
<lro...@hotmail.com> writes
>
actually true or not. I didn't want to defame JDate on the basis of a
'blog report.
So is this Kari Gold actually Jewish? I noted in my search there were
apparently quite a few allegedly Jewish porn 'actresses' Traci Lords,
Jeanna Fine, Sindee Cox, Melissa Monet, Nina Hartley (nee Hartman) and
Alexandra Silk
The article writer noted his Rabbis comments: "You worry about Jewish
pornography when your people die in Israel?"
Eliyahu Rooff
up statutes of limitations and appellate court holdings? :-)
> The article writer noted his Rabbis comments: "You worry about Jewish
> pornography when your people die in Israel?"
> --
It's all a matter of deciding on priorities.
Eliyahu
Chano
<nom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3401-415...@storefull-3232.bay.webtv.net...
> I am the writer of the original post.
(snipped for brevity)
> My grandfather was a beloved Rabbi with a congregation in New Rochelle,
> New York.
I knew of a Rabbi Golovenski in New Rochelle once.
Chano
> Allan
Sheldon Ackerman
> The Mishna Berurah (don't remember the reference, sorry) mentions a
> prohibition against owning tapestries with lewd images on them. The
> Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (150:5) states that it is forbidden to look at a
> woman's genetalia.
>
Find a good Siddur with an explanation of the Shema and see the explanation
given on "lo susiru achrei levavchem veachrei aynaichem" (excuse my lovely
spelling :-)
--
(Drop the first S for Emailing)
(s)acke...@dorsai.org
Sheldon Ackerman
news:2s0va5F...@uni-berlin.de:
>>
>> Externally, he may LOOK like an Orthodox Jew, but someone who enables
>> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.
>>
>
> Sure he is. Many people don't live up to their beliefs. Many aren't
> even consistent in those beliefs. He might not be a good Orthodox Jew,
> but do you judge Conservative and Reform Judaism only by their best?
>
You seem to have a problem with definitions. If someone does not keep the
shabbat, eats non kosher, makes sure to break most commandments, but wears
a black hat, and black suit, with tzitit hanging at the sides that makes
him an Orthodox Jew?
arise and learn
>wrote:
>But the Christians claim that there was >some Jew once who was
>immorTal...
Dr. Argaman, we also claim many of us are immortal. One outstanding example of
an immortal is Eliyahu Hanevi of Nevi'vim-Trei Asar-Malachi. You'll find in
Rabbi Yisroel Klapholtz 4 volume set of "A Treasury of Aggados on Nach"
Translated from the Hebrew by Sheindel Weinbach and Edited by U. Cheskin,
Volume 2, page 190 the following is written on the second paragraph, "Eliyahu
reveals himself to the wholly righteous in different guises: sometimes as a
beggar, sometimes as a rider mounted on a mighty horse, sometimes as an
important minister in a court of some gentile king and sometimes even as an
Arab.
Please enjoy a pleasant Sukkoth on Eretz Israel haaretz hatovah meleh im halav
vehdavash.
Shalom,
Amen Selah,
Israel Tekhelet
http://www.torahstudygroup.com
**************************************************************************
*******************
I believe with a complete faith that the entire Torah now in our hands is the
same one that was given to Moses, our teacher, peace be upon him.
Lee Ratner
> Ken Bloom <kab...@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.29....@ucdavis.edu>...
> > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:05:47 +0000, Larisa wrote:
> >
> > > Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message news:
> > > <2rvh6uF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > >> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:41:18 +0000 (UTC), nom...@webtv.net wrote:
> > >> : Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
> > >> : Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
> > >> : Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
>
> > >> : I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
> > >>
> > >> Why accept the job of defending every Jew? Simply say what you did
> > >> here: What he's doing is against Judaism, but as in every community,
> > >> not everyone is a role model. (Or: as in every family, there are some
> > >> people we prefer not to talk about.)
> > >>
> > >> -mi
> > >
> > > Does halacha prohibit pornography, though? It certainly doesn't come
> > > up in the list of perversions in the Torah - was there a rabbinic
> > > prohibition?
> >
> > The Mishna Berurah (don't remember the reference, sorry) mentions a
> > prohibition against owning tapestries with lewd images on them.
>
> Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
Most Jews would probable argue that tapestries refers to at least
all pictoral media I imagine, literalism has never been a strong
Jewish belief. However it says nothing about textual pornography and
the law is only against owning, not against renting or borrowing. -_-
Shlomo Chaim
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TSD6d.99957$Kt5....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Hi Cindy,
I hope you had a great holiday!!!
You're probably right that the Amish don't encourage pornography. I also
suppose that within the Amish ranks you will find those who are observant
and those who are not, and as in this alleged case, there are those who
claim to be observant that are not.
Shlomo
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
darr...@aol.com (DarrinT68) writes:
> >Subject: Re: An Orthodox Jew and Pornography
> >From: "BlackMonk" Blac...@email.msn.com
> >
> ><bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> >news:cjefq5$vin$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >> In article <18283-415...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net>,
> >nom...@webtv.net writes:
>
> >> > There is an individual I know who provides internet collection
> >> > services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
> >> > investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
> >> > people for payment who never visited the sites.>> >>> > The man is a
> practicing Orthodox Jew.>>
>
> >> Externally, he may LOOK like an Orthodox Jew, but someone who enables
> >> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.>>
>
> As Abraham Foxman (Anti-Defamation League) once said: "Jews who enter the
> pornography industry have done so as individuals pursuing the American dream,
> not as representatives of their religious group."
> Regardless, is there anything wrong with mainstream erotica!?
Yes.
> Is there anything wrong with consenting adults who choose to pursue
> careers in that medium?
Yes.
> Is there anything wrong with adults who choose to watch that medium?
Yes.
> Is there a man alive who hasn't sat down to a nice juicy porn?
Yes.
> eh In terms of sales, adult films surpass every other genre of
> film.
So? Immorality has always been popular.
> Yes, Jews even disproportionately excel in the erotic industry:
If true, this is no cause for pride.
> eh In the end, sex has never been seen as sinful in Judaism!
But it has been viewed as sacred.
> If you have yet to, pickup "Kosher Sex" by Rabbi Shmuley!!
On what page does he recommend pornography as a good thing? I must
have missed that bit...
> -D, NYC
When will you learn to use your space-bar and "enter" key?
-Shlomo-
Shlomo Chaim
"Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9576E8CC5DDD0...@129.250.170.86...
I think there is a lot of confusion as to who is an Orthodox Jew vs. who is
an Observant Jew. An Orthodox Jew is orthodox because he or she has certain
specific beliefs. An Observant Jew is a Jew who makes a good go at observing
all of the Mitzvahs he can.
I'm a good example of what I'm talking about, I think. I am orthodox because
of what I believe: most importantly I see that there is Devine Providence,
and I believe that G-D gave Moses the Chumash right there, right then, on
the mountain. I am not too observant, yet, but am s l o w l y working in
that direction. Let the truth be told here, I really don't see myself as
ever being a black hatter, nor becoming nearly as observant as most O Jews
are who were raised in a frum household. That doesn't mean I'm not Orthodox.
Really, I'm not too comfortable with this O/C/R split. I think there is one
kind of Jew, and that because each of us have our own yitzer hora, over
which some of us have overcome to a greater level than others, we all
believe in different ways. But hey, that's life, and that's the way Hashem
intended for things to be.
Just my .02.
Shlomo
Shlomo Chaim
"Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)" <arg...@sunlight.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote
>
> But the Christians claim that there was some Jew once who was
> immorTal...
What about the L rebbi? I know people who send him faxes. The xtains don't
fax their guy, I don't think.
Tonibaruch
> Just my .02.
Very well told and, I think, very true.
Tb
--
Nick
news:34e2d56d.0409...@posting.google.com...
Maybe you hadn't noticed that PC's didn't exist in Talmudic times. Rabbis
look at earlier examples and then draw conclusions of how these apply to
present day situations. Haven't you hears the expression that there is
nothing new under the sun.
Nick
cindys
"Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cjnibc$21m$2...@titan.btinternet.com...
Yes, this expression comes from Koheles (Ecclesiastes).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Eliyahu Rooff
The boy points and asks, "What's that below the big animal, dad?" The
father looks and, not seeing anything, replies, "There's nothing under
the gnu, son."
Eliyahu
Ken Bloom
> Ken Bloom <kab...@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.09.29....@ucdavis.edu>...
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:05:47 +0000, Larisa wrote:
>> > Does halacha prohibit pornography, though? It certainly doesn't come
>> > up in the list of perversions in the Torah - was there a rabbinic
>> > prohibition?
>>
>> The Mishna Berurah (don't remember the reference, sorry) mentions a
>> prohibition against owning tapestries with lewd images on them.
>
> Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
The Mishna Berurah is the Chofetz Chaim's explanation of Orach Chayim,
one of the 4 sections of the Shulchan Aruch. Orach Chayim deals mostly
with prayer and holidays. Niddah, and weddings (lehavdil, vaguely related
subjects) are *not* in Orach Chayim, so I wouldn't expect to find
pornography discussed there.
The extent of my learning is rather small, so I haven't studied other
sources to quote (I haven't studied Mishna Berurah either, but I was
looking something up a few weeks ago and happened to run across this).
Tapestries were discussed in the context of whether it is permitted to
daven where a tapestry interposes between the davener and the wall.
Presumably other media are prohibited as well.
--Ken Bloom
--
I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment.
See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures.
"All the spots [of tzarat] that a man sees on others, are his own."
-- from the Mishna, as interpreted according to the Ba'al Shem Tov
BlackMonk
Depends. Does he believe that he should keep the commandments?
Micha Berger
: I think there is a lot of confusion as to who is an Orthodox Jew vs. who is
: specific beliefs. An Observant Jew is a Jew who makes a good go at observing
: all of the Mitzvahs he can.
O is defined more by observance than by belief. The limits of belief are
very loose, roughly 13 points which can be defined pretty broadly. Yes,
despite Marc Shapiro's book, I'm invoking the 13 Articles of Faith --
but not necessarily M's -- fealty to something that conforms only to
the Ani Ma'amin or Yigdal version and not Maimonides' original wouldn't
raise too many eyebrows.
But not by being observant as much as commitment to a certain standard
and definition of observance. I therefore agree that if Shlomo Chaim's
self-description is accurate, his conclusion is as well:
: I am not too observant, yet, but am s l o w l y working in
: that direction. Let the truth be told here, I really don't see myself as
: ever being a black hatter, nor becoming nearly as observant as most O Jews
: are who were raised in a frum household. That doesn't mean I'm not Orthodox.
: Really, I'm not too comfortable with this O/C/R split...
I think it's quite useful to have terms for
- belief in G-d's Will having been revealed in a law we call halakhah (O)
- belief in man trying to capture G-d's Will as He inspires us, to create
something called halakhah (C)
- belief in man trying to capture G-d's Will, for which halakhah was one
model that ran away with the legalistic perspective (R)
People do not fit labels. That's true whether I'm writing that here about
OCR, or on Areivim about MO/yeshivish/chassidish/heimish/.... However,
these are landmarks in the conceptual landscape from which people
can get their bearings and describe where they stand in relation to
others. Institutions' worldviews (which often differ even from the
stances of their key players'), because they end up well known, provide
such landmarks.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Until he extends the circle of his compassion
mi...@aishdas.org to all living things,
http://www.aishdas.org man will not himself find peace.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Albert Schweitzer
Yisroel Markov
(DarrinT68) said:
>>Subject: Re: An Orthodox Jew and Pornography
>>From: "BlackMonk" Blac...@email.msn.com
>>Date: 9/29/04 7:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <2s0va5F...@uni-berlin.de>
>>
>>
>><bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>news:cjefq5$vin$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>>> In article <18283-415...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net>,
>>nom...@webtv.net writes:
>
>>> > There is an individual I know who provides internet collection
>>> > services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
>>> > investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for harassing
>>> > people for payment who never visited the sites.>> >>> > The man is a
>practicing Orthodox Jew.>>
>
>>> Externally, he may LOOK like an Orthodox Jew, but someone who enables
>>> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.>>
>
>As Abraham Foxman (Anti-Defamation League) once said: "Jews who enter the
>pornography industry have done so as individuals pursuing the American dream,
>not as representatives of their religious group." Regardless, is there anything
>wrong with mainstream erotica!? Is there anything wrong with consenting adults
>who choose to pursue careers in that medium? Is there anything wrong with
>adults who choose to watch that medium? Is there a man alive who hasn't sat
>down to a nice juicy porn?eh In terms of sales, adult films surpass every other
>genre of film. Yes, Jews even disproportionately excel in the erotic industry:
>the #1 adult entertainer of all-time happens to be Jewish: Ron "The Hedgehog"
>Jeremy (b. Hyatt, Queens, NY). Seymour Butts (b. Adam Glasser, NYC) is one of
>the most successful pornographers of his day! He even has his own hit SHOwtime
>reality t.v. series, "Family Business." And how can we forget about another
>legendary sweet NYer in that biz: Al Goldstein & Screw Magazine?eh In the end,
>sex has never been seen as sinful in Judaism! That's why other religions
>ultimately condemned their gene pool by abstaining from sex. Jews, on the other
>hand, took quite seriously the first commandment to mankind - to be fruitful
>and multiply. Jews never preach pro-life, abstinence, or the forbiddance of
>pre-marital sex. Judaism is the practical religion! If you have yet to, pickup
>"Kosher Sex" by Rabbi Shmuley!!
Which comes out very strongly against pornography, BTW.
> -D, NYC "Three of the largest adult film
>companies were founded by Jews - VIVID (Steve Hirsch), WICKED (Steve Orenstein)
>& AVN (Paul Fishbein)
Nothing to be proud of here.
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Henry Goodman
"DarrinT68" <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040929214739...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> "Kosher Sex" by Rabbi Shmuley!! -D, NYC "Three of the largest adult
film
> companies were founded by Jews - VIVID (Steve Hirsch), WICKED (Steve
Orenstein)
> & AVN (Paul Fishbein)
>
>
I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
industry in the world.
I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from it :-)
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
>
Henry Goodman
"Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote in
message news:cjo6jb$8an$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Does he have an email address?
Does sending faxes count as doresh el hametim?
Is there any significance in the fact that when the L rebbe died in
1994 faxes were more used than emails and his disciples have not moved
with the times?
Tim Meushaw
> "DarrinT68" <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040929214739...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
> industry in the world.
Didn't you know? NYC has the biggest *everything!*
<coughs politely and blushes slightly>
> I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from it :-)
Sometimes the rest of us wish we had an ocean separating us from it too.
Or at least a moat and high walls....
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Harry Weiss
I imagine it would be very difficult for a dead person to set up an e mail account,
though any responses he would send would be very interesting.
> --
> Henry Goodman
> henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
> >
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Andy Katz
<henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
>industry in the world.
Naw ... not even close. San Fernando Valley is the center of the US
porn industry.
I grew up there . . . .
>I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from it :-)
Add one continent;-).
Andy Katz
____________________________________________
"There's more to being a Jew than jewelry!"
Charlotte York, "Sex & The City"
The Simpsons
Bastard Nation
http://www.bastards.org
Don Levey
> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC), "Henry Goodman"
> <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> >I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
> >industry in the world.
>
> Naw ... not even close. San Fernando Valley is the center of the US
> porn industry.
>
> I grew up there . . . .
>
Please tell me that these are not connected...
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Reminds me of the line in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF:"May God bless and keep
the Czar FAR AWAY FROM US !!"
Josh
Shlomo Chaim
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:cjsglp$cfn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
If he didn't have an email address before he passed away, I doubt that he's
signed up for one since that time.
I wonder what they do with the faxes when they get them.
Andy Katz
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>amk...@earthlink.net (Andy Katz) writes:
>> Naw ... not even close. San Fernando Valley is the center of the US
>> porn industry.
>>
>> I grew up there . . . .
>>
>Please tell me that these are not connected...
Okay . . . ;-)
Shlomo Chaim
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrncm3h24....@athens.meushaw.com...
> On 2004-10-04, Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>> "DarrinT68" <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:20040929214739...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> <snip>
>> I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
>> industry in the world.
>
> Didn't you know? NYC has the biggest *everything!*
> <coughs politely and blushes slightly>
I thought that was Texas.
>> I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from it :-)
>
> Sometimes the rest of us wish we had an ocean separating us from it too.
> Or at least a moat and high walls....
Twenty-five hundred miles of dirt does nicely. Of course, California has its
share of fruits and nuts, too.
Maybe we should all get together in Texas and make our own country :-))
Shlomo
BlackMonk
>
> Sometimes the rest of us wish we had an ocean separating us from it too.
> Or at least a moat and high walls....
>
Sometimes the feeling's mutual.
Tim Meushaw
>
> "Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:slrncm3h24....@athens.meushaw.com...
>> On 2004-10-04, Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>>> "DarrinT68" <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:20040929214739...@mb-m03.aol.com...
>> <snip>
>>> I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
>>> industry in the world.
>>
>> Didn't you know? NYC has the biggest *everything!*
>> <coughs politely and blushes slightly>
>
> I thought that was Texas.
Now you've done it. Expect another NYC post in a day or two....
>>> I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from it :-)
>>
>> Sometimes the rest of us wish we had an ocean separating us from it too.
>> Or at least a moat and high walls....
>
> Twenty-five hundred miles of dirt does nicely. Of course, California has its
> share of fruits and nuts, too.
>
> Maybe we should all get together in Texas and make our own country :-))
Sounds good to me. Julie, how many rooms does your house have?
Arthur Kamlet
Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>I imagine it would be very difficult for a dead person to set up an e mail account,
>though any responses he would send would be very interesting.
In Chicago, it is customary for dead prople not only to have
addresses, but to vote early and vote often.
--
__
Art Kamlet ArtKamlet @ AOL.com Columbus OH K2PZH
Ken Bloom
>
> "Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:slrncm3h24....@athens.meushaw.com...
>> On 2004-10-04, Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes the rest of us wish we had an ocean separating us from it too.
>> Or at least a moat and high walls....
>
> Twenty-five hundred miles of dirt does nicely. Of course, California has its
> share of fruits and nuts, too.
>
> Maybe we should all get together in Texas and make our own country :-))
I mentioned the idea of building a Jewish settlement in Northern
California this past 3 day weekend. They all thought it would be a
good fantasy.
Do you think any American Jews would be interested in creating
settlements in Northern California?
Henry Goodman
"Julie" <txj...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:iTn8d.17493$VB3....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> "Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote in
message
> news:cjsv5a$1l0$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >
> > "Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> > news:slrncm3h24....@athens.meushaw.com...
> > > On 2004-10-04, Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
> > >> "DarrinT68" <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >> news:20040929214739...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> > > <snip>
> > >> I didn't know New York was known as having the largest
pornographic
> > >> industry in the world.
> > >
> > > Didn't you know? NYC has the biggest *everything!*
> > > <coughs politely and blushes slightly>
> >
> > I thought that was Texas.
>
> Nope. We have the smallest bedrooms, as I learned yesterday
> when I went looking at a new house. 10' by 13' is NOT the
> correct size for a child's bedroom.
>
That's a double bedroom this side of the pond.
Yisroel Markov
<shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> said:
>"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>news:cjsglp$cfn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
[snip]
>> "Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote in
>> message news:cjo6jb$8an$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>>> What about the L rebbi? I know people who send him faxes. The xtains
>> don't
>>> fax their guy, I don't think.
>>
>> Does he have an email address?
>> Does sending faxes count as doresh el hametim?
Until you ask a rabbi, you won't have any answer but an educated
guess.
>> Is there any significance in the fact that when the L rebbe died in
>> 1994 faxes were more used than emails and his disciples have not moved
>> with the times?
>
>If he didn't have an email address before he passed away, I doubt that he's
>signed up for one since that time.
>
>I wonder what they do with the faxes when they get them.
The same thing they do with letters: they randomly insert them into a
book of the late Rebbe's letters, then look on that page (and
sometimes a few before and after) to find material that looks like it
might be the answer to the faxed question or request, and convey that
to the author of the fax. Bibliomancy, Jon has called it.
Henry Goodman
"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:4162ea6a...@News.individual.net...
> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:53:35 +0000 (UTC), "Shlomo Chaim"
> <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> said:
>
> >"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> >news:cjsglp$cfn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
> [snip]
>
> >> "Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote
in
> >> message news:cjo6jb$8an$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >>> What about the L rebbi? I know people who send him faxes. The
xtains
> >> don't
> >>> fax their guy, I don't think.
> >>
> >> Does he have an email address?
> >> Does sending faxes count as doresh el hametim?
>
> Until you ask a rabbi, you won't have any answer but an educated
> guess.
>
The one I asked said that since they hold he is still alive it is not
doresh el hametim. He also said he knows nothing about the subject.
Joel Shurkin
On 10/4/04 6:14 PM, in article 70i3m096acuimik64...@4ax.com,
"Andy Katz" <amk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:52:09 +0000 (UTC), "Henry Goodman"
> <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> I didn't know New York was known as having the largest pornographic
>> industry in the world.
>
> Naw ... not even close. San Fernando Valley is the center of the US
> porn industry.
>
> I grew up there . . . .
>
>> I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from it :-)
>
> Add one continent;-).
>
> Andy Katz
Mr. Katz is absolutely correct. LA has been the winner since the 1950s.
J
>
> ____________________________________________
> "There's more to being a Jew than jewelry!"
>
> Charlotte York, "Sex & The City"
>
> The Simpsons
>
>
>
> Bastard Nation
> http://www.bastards.org
--
Joel N. Shurkin
Baltimore
-----
"Every journalist has a novel in him, which is an excellent place for it."
Russel Lynes
Joel Shurkin
On 10/5/04 2:15 AM, in article cjte6a$n6f$1...@falcon.steinthal.us, "Ken Bloom"
<kab...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> Shlomo Chaim <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote:
>>
>> "Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrncm3h24....@athens.meushaw.com...
>>> On 2004-10-04, Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>> I'm glad the Atlantic Ocean separates me from [New York City] :-)
>>>
>>> Sometimes the rest of us wish we had an ocean separating us from it too.
>>> Or at least a moat and high walls....
>>
>> Twenty-five hundred miles of dirt does nicely. Of course, California has its
>> share of fruits and nuts, too.
>>
>> Maybe we should all get together in Texas and make our own country :-))
>
> I mentioned the idea of building a Jewish settlement in Northern
> California this past 3 day weekend. They all thought it would be a
> good fantasy.
>
> Do you think any American Jews would be interested in creating
> settlements in Northern California?
>
> --Ken Bloom
Can't afford the real estate.
---------------------
Joel N. Shurkin
Former Northern Californian
--
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under."
H.L. Mencken
Nick
news:cjo6io$8a0$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
> "Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns9576E8CC5DDD0...@129.250.170.86...
> > "BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > news:2s0va5F...@uni-berlin.de:
> >
> >>>
> >>> porn sites to operate is by definition NOT an Orthodox Jew.
> >>>
> >>
> >> even consistent in those beliefs. He might not be a good Orthodox Jew,
> >> but do you judge Conservative and Reform Judaism only by their best?
> >>
> >
> > You seem to have a problem with definitions. If someone does not keep
the
> > shabbat, eats non kosher, makes sure to break most commandments, but
wears
> > a black hat, and black suit, with tzitit hanging at the sides that makes
> > him an Orthodox Jew?
>
is
> an Observant Jew. An Orthodox Jew is orthodox because he or she has
certain
> specific beliefs. An Observant Jew is a Jew who makes a good go at
observing
> all of the Mitzvahs he can.
>
because
> of what I believe: most importantly I see that there is Devine Providence,
> and I believe that G-D gave Moses the Chumash right there, right then, on
> the mountain. I am not too observant, yet, but am s l o w l y working in
> that direction. Let the truth be told here, I really don't see myself as
> ever being a black hatter, nor becoming nearly as observant as most O Jews
> are who were raised in a frum household. That doesn't mean I'm not
Orthodox.
>
one
> kind of Jew, and that because each of us have our own yitzer hora, over
> which some of us have overcome to a greater level than others, we all
> believe in different ways. But hey, that's life, and that's the way Hashem
> intended for things to be.
>
>
> Just my .02.
>
> Shlomo
>
See this article "Rabbi invents prayer for porn-surfing Jews" from Israel:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_857733.html?menu=news.quirkies
Nick
Yisroel Markov
> "Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:4162ea6a...@News.individual.net...
> > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:53:35 +0000 (UTC), "Shlomo Chaim"
> > <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> said:
> >
> > >"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > >news:cjsglp$cfn$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > >> "Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> wrote
> in
> > >> message news:cjo6jb$8an$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> > >>> What about the L rebbi? I know people who send him faxes. The
> xtains
> don't
> > >>> fax their guy, I don't think.
> > >>
> > >> Does he have an email address?
> > >> Does sending faxes count as doresh el hametim?
> >
> > Until you ask a rabbi, you won't have any answer but an educated
> > guess.
> >
>
> The one I asked said that since they hold he is still alive it is not
> doresh el hametim.
Hmm. So if I write a letter on Shabbat, believing that it's not
Shabbat, there's no violation? Interesting logic.
> He also said he knows nothing about the subject.
Then he should have remained silent.
Raphael
> > xtains
> > don't
> > > >>> fax their guy, I don't think.
> > > >>
> > >
> > > Until you ask a rabbi, you won't have any answer but an educated
> > > guess.
> > >
> >
> > The one I asked said that since they hold he is still alive it is not
> > doresh el hametim.
>
> Hmm. So if I write a letter on Shabbat, believing that it's not
> Shabbat, there's no violation? Interesting logic.
>
R, as scjm's resident Lubavitcher Chossid, has spoken to this many times,
but he always keeps it rhetorical.
His retort, which I paraphrase without his permission, is as follows:
"Take it up with the L Rebbe, who visited his father-in-law's kever several
times a month, and davened there. And take it up with his father-in-law, the
'Previous' Rebbe who also went to his forbears' graves when he could, and
recorded that his forbears did the same. They considered this behavior
acceptable. So that's good enough for me and thousands of observant Jews."
A less rhetorical rendering of this statement would be to research the
mitzvah of not being "doresh meisim". This is what I did. Look it up in
the Rambam Hilchos Avodah Zarah 11:13 and Tur-Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deiah
179:13 with the commentaries. It is 100% clear from all those sources that
what the Torah prohibits is performing rituals, like starvation or wearing
certain types of clothing or saying incantations or lying down on the ground
of the cemetary or offering incense etc. in order to elicit the "ruach
hatum'ah" spirit of the deceased. There is nothing there at all about
merely talking to the deceased or making a request. The Beis Yoseif even
brings an example from a gemara where a pious person went to the cemetary to
hear what the spirits were saying.
The Chayei Adam, a Lithuanian rabbi of the late 18th-early 19th century, a
mechutan of the Vilna Gaon and an opponent of the Chassidic movement, speaks
about the proper intention one should have when davening or speaking at a
kever. He points out that the prayer's intent should be "May God act in the
merit of the deceased" and not that "the deceased is actually doing the
'heavy lifting'". This has been quotes in halachic works since then as well.
This is very similar to the issue people have with some of the prayers said
during the High Holidays, where it seems we pray to the angels or to the 13
Attributes of Mercy. There too, these ancient prayers are understood by all
monotheistic Jews in the vein I mentionned, that the phrasing poetically
phrased means that God should bring those angels up, or use His 13
attributes of mercy, and NOT that we expect independent action from the
angels or attributes. This kind of tension increased when Kabala began
talking about sefiros. But Chabad philosophy was always vociferous in
interpreting all kabalistic statements in the most monotheistic way
possible.
This doesn't change the phrasing. Although a few individuals have tried to
alter or omit those High Holiday prayers in order to eliminate any hint of
even poetic deviation from monotheism, the prayers are still there, and if
the Jews are not prophets they are the soms of prophets. When Joshua told
the sun to stop in Giv'on, was he praying to the sun? Of course not! Nor
should we suspect the authors of the prayers in question of A"Z, nor should
we suspect the Rebbes in question of "doreish hameisim" when the Halacha is
clear.
As far as the faxes, the same applies, although the people in question do
not have the presumption of righteousness that the aforementionned people
did.
Raphael
Horav Hagaon Onan Ben Drusoy MD (Morally Deficient)
>
> The one I asked said that since they hold he is still alive it is not
> doresh el hametim. He also said he knows nothing about the subject.
Why do you bring your shailos to the Wormwood Scrubs rov? Is the Broadmoorer
too busy these days?
OBD
Henry Goodman
"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:2ffb2135.0410...@posting.google.com...
SDWOTN
Arthur Kamlet
Sorry, Henry, I sincerely disagree, and I'll bet Moshe does too.
Now had you Not tried to save a byte here, I would easily agree.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> I am the writer of the original post.
Nice to see a follow-up from the OP.
> Go to the Rip-Off Reports web site and enter "Alyon Technologies"
> on the company search engine.
snip
> My grandfather was a beloved Rabbi with a congregation in New
> Rochelle, New York. So I am unhappy that an Orthodox Jew would
> engage in such practices.
Agreed.
> I had hoped to respond on Rip-Off reports.
> .
> However, I now will not.
Why not? You could make the same comment you make here. Unless the
fact that he's an OJ was made in passing and you don't want to
dwell on it.
> There are, as some of you have said, practicing Orthodox Jews and
> Christians (and probably a few Buddhists and Hindus) who can
> separate their beliefs from their actions.
That's what Yom Kippur is all about. The idea is to bring the mood
of YK to the whole year and then grow even more the following one.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> purple...@yahoo.com (Larisa) writes:
snip
>>>> Does halacha prohibit pornography, though?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>> Can you elaborate a bit about what is or isn't allowed? Erotic
>> writing, for instance... at what point does it become prohibited or
>
> Sex (and what is sexual) is permitted only in the context of the
> relations between husband and wife. Laws of modesty are delineated
> in Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAYIM 240 and more specifically in EVEN
> HA'EZER 21 (and 23)
>
>> objectionable? Photographs.... what can they show and what is
>> disallowed? Elbows? Shoulders? Midriff? Cleavage? Same thing with
>> movies... is it a question of what they show, or of how people react
>> to it? A photograph of genitalia in a medical text shows pretty much
>> the same detail as would be seen in Penthouse, so what are the
>> criteria by which we differentiate? Even those justices in our
>> Supreme Court who wanted to ban obscenity admitted that they
>> couldn't define it precisely enough to enact laws on the question.
>
> Everything except that appearing in medical textbooks is prohibited.
> [I assure there is nothing prurient or sexual in what appears in
> medical textbooks]
That may be because you have a clean mind Josh. I read somewhere that
there is a "problem" with Holocaust research. Because the Nazis would
strip their victims before gassing them, the pictures of the deeds
show naked women. For some "researchers" that's an enticement. :-(
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>> "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > "Larisa" <purple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > > Ken Bloom <kab...@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
>> > > > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:05:47 +0000, Larisa wrote:
>> > > > > Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote in message news:
>> > > > >> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:41:18 +0000 (UTC), nom...@webtv.net
snip
>> > > > >> : Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is
>> > > > >> : immoral. Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his
>> > > > >> : involvement in such services. Doesn't the Talmud and
>> > > > >> : other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
>> > > >
>> > > > >> : I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Why accept the job of defending every Jew? Simply say what
>> > > > >> you did here: What he's doing is against Judaism, but as
>> > > > >> in every community, not everyone is a role model.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Does halacha prohibit pornography, though? It certainly
>> > > > > doesn't come up in the list of perversions in the Torah -
>> > > > > was there a rabbinic prohibition?
>> > > >
>> > > > The Mishna Berurah (don't remember the reference, sorry)
>> > > > mentions a prohibition against owning tapestries with lewd
>> > > > images on them.
>> > >
>> > > Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
Ummm Larissa, the Mishna Brura was writing about what was available
in his time. It's up to later-day poskim to extrapolate.
>> > > > The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (150:5) states that it is forbidden
>> > > > to look at a woman's genitalia.
>> > >
>> > > OK. Thanks. But is male pornography - with male genitals on it -
>> > permitted, then?
That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
genitals, male or female.
>> > Maybe you hadn't noticed that PC's didn't exist in Talmudic times.
> Rabbis
>> > look at earlier examples and then draw conclusions of how these
> apply to
>> > present day situations. Haven't you hears the expression that there
> is
>> > nothing new under the sun.
>> --------
>> Yes, this expression comes from Koheles (Ecclesiastes).
>>
> A man and his son are at the zoo, looking at the wildebeest exhibit.
> The boy points and asks, "What's that below the big animal, dad?" The
> father looks and, not seeing anything, replies, "There's nothing under
> the gnu, son."
GROAN!
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
snip
Moshe Schorr
Don Levey
> That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
> the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
> make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
> rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
> genitals, male or female.
>
Two things:
1) Perhaps it's just that it's Monday (though I'm in the US, we're
Reform Americans, so we con't celebrate Columbus day), but I can't
see how you could say a bracha NOT in the presence of genitalia.
Does this mean *exposed* genitals?
2) While male genitalia are not particularly exciting to many (dare I
say most) men, there are quite a few women who find the sight enticing.
Was this at all considered at the time?
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters.
Yisroel Markov
<rdavi...@NOSPAMcox.net> said:
[snip]
>A less rhetorical rendering of this statement would be to research the
>mitzvah of not being "doresh meisim". This is what I did.
Nah, too obvious :-)
On a more serious note, thank you. This is what I should have done.
>Look it up in
>the Rambam Hilchos Avodah Zarah 11:13 and Tur-Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deiah
>179:13 with the commentaries. It is 100% clear from all those sources that
>what the Torah prohibits is performing rituals, like starvation or wearing
>certain types of clothing or saying incantations or lying down on the ground
>of the cemetary or offering incense etc. in order to elicit the "ruach
>hatum'ah" spirit of the deceased. There is nothing there at all about
>merely talking to the deceased or making a request. The Beis Yoseif even
>brings an example from a gemara where a pious person went to the cemetary to
>hear what the spirits were saying.
[nod] Brakhot somewhere around page 18, IIRC. I've always wondered
about that. If we take Josh's apparent position that all such stories
are allegorical, however, Beit Yosef doesn't have what to stand on.
[snip]
Yisroel Markov
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
>mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>
>
>> That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
>> the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
>> make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
>> rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
>> genitals, male or female.
>>
>Two things:
>
>1) Perhaps it's just that it's Monday (though I'm in the US, we're
>Reform Americans, so we con't celebrate Columbus day), but I can't
>see how you could say a bracha NOT in the presence of genitalia.
>Does this mean *exposed* genitals?
It does. Good catch. The only exception is just-circumcized male
genitalia.
>2) While male genitalia are not particularly exciting to many (dare I
>say most) men, there are quite a few women who find the sight enticing.
>Was this at all considered at the time?
It doesn't seem to have been. Women's views didn't seem to figure
prominently into most discusions (there are exceptions, but this is
not one of them). The Gemara freely acknowledges female sexuality, and
perhaps even over-estimates its intensity as applied to most women,
but it did seem to assume that all the trappings of the act are
determined by the man.
Harry Weiss
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:35:24 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> said:
> >mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
> >
> >
> >> That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
> >> the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
> >> make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
> >> rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
> >> genitals, male or female.
> >>
> >Two things:
> >
> >1) Perhaps it's just that it's Monday (though I'm in the US, we're
> >Reform Americans, so we con't celebrate Columbus day), but I can't
> >see how you could say a bracha NOT in the presence of genitalia.
> >Does this mean *exposed* genitals?
> It does. Good catch. The only exception is just-circumcized male
> genitalia.
Actually, it is one about to be circumcised. By the time the later
brachot are said a bandage is already on.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Larisa
>
> >> > > Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
>
> Ummm Larissa, the Mishna Brura was writing about what was available
> in his time. It's up to later-day poskim to extrapolate.
But I'm certain that paper and writing/drawing implements were
available at the time; why isn't paper specified?
> >> > > > The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (150:5) states that it is forbidden
> >> > > > to look at a woman's genitalia.
> >> > >
> >> > > OK. Thanks. But is male pornography - with male genitals on it -
> >> > permitted, then?
>
> That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
> the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
> make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
> rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
> genitals, male or female.
What "black/white" mode? Judaism is a set of laws; I'm curious as to
what laws apply to the given situation. And if there is not a law to
cover a particular circumstance, aren't I allowed to be curious why
not?
And considering that at least 50% of Jews are women, presumably at
least some of them might be interested in the sight of male genitalia,
real or pictured? Considering that at least some aspects of women's
sexual behavior are regulated by the Torah, why not this one?
LM
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>
>> That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
>> the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
>> make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
>> rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
>> genitals, male or female.
>>
> Two things:
>
> 1) Perhaps it's just that it's Monday (though I'm in the US, we're
> Reform Americans, so we con't celebrate Columbus day), but I can't
> see how you could say a bracha NOT in the presence of genitalia.
> Does this mean *exposed* genitals?
Sorry for my imprecision. Yes, I meant "visible" genitals.
> 2) While male genitalia are not particularly exciting to many (dare I
> say most) men, there are quite a few women who find the sight enticing.
> Was this at all considered at the time?
Actually the rule is more strict with the males. Because of the
anatomy, a naked man sitting on the ground will have his genitals
exposed. A woman will not.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote in message
>> >> > > Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
>>
>> Ummm Larissa, the Mishna Brura was writing about what was available
>> in his time. It's up to later-day poskim to extrapolate.
>
> But I'm certain that paper and writing/drawing implements were
> available at the time; why isn't paper specified?
Because the _context_ the Mishna Berurah was talking about was
specifically about tapestries. It's clear that if someone would put
it on paper or a screen etc. the same rule would apply.
>> >> > > > The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (150:5) states that it is forbidden
>> >> > > > to look at a woman's genitalia.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > OK. Thanks. But is male pornography - with male genitals on it -
>> >> > permitted, then?
>>
>> That's an example of your "black/white" mode. Before gays came out of
>> the closet, nobodt even _thought_ that male genitals was something to
>> make a big deal about. Surely not something to exhibit. There are
>> rules regarding when a brocho may not be said in the presence of
>> genitals, male or female.
>
> What "black/white" mode? Judaism is a set of laws; I'm curious as to
> what laws apply to the given situation. And if there is not a law to
> cover a particular circumstance, aren't I allowed to be curious why
> not?
The law _is_ there. As I said in a different post, because of the
anatomy involved it's more strict regarding the male's. But you can't
expect every Usenet post to mention _every_ *detail* of every law,
and you surely can't use such a lack of detail to be the basis of an
_assumption_ regarding the law.
> And considering that at least 50% of Jews are women, presumably at
> least some of them might be interested in the sight of male genitalia,
> real or pictured? Considering that at least some aspects of women's
> sexual behavior are regulated by the Torah, why not this one?
Who said it's not? You jump to conclusions and then ask questions.
I'll share with you and all the readers here, my _favorite_ Talmud
lesson.
The verse says (Gen.30:14) "Vayelech Reuven b'yimei k'tzir chitim -
Rueven went (lit. "walked") in the days of the wheat harvest".
The question was asked; Since Reuven had no feet, how could he have
walked? When the question was asked, the teacher said, "Who said
Reuven had no feet?" "Oh" replied the student, "that's my
*assumption*!".
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Henry Goodman <henry....@virgin.net> wrote:
>>"Yisroel Markov" <ey.m...@iname.com> wrote in message
>>> > > <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)> said:
>>> > > >"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
>>> > > >> "Shlomo Chaim" <shlomo_chiam@ya~hoo.com (take out the ~)>
>>> > > >>> What about the L rebbi? I know people who send him faxes.
>>> > > >> Does he have an email address?
>>> > > >> Does sending faxes count as doresh el hametim?
>>> > >
>>> > > Until you ask a rabbi, you won't have any answer but an
>>> > > educated guess.
>>> >
>>> > The one I asked said that since they hold he is still alive
>>> > it is not doresh el hametim.
>>>
>>> Hmm. So if I write a letter on Shabbat, believing that it's not
>>> Shabbat, there's no violation? Interesting logic.
>>>
>>> > He also said he knows nothing about the subject.
>>>
>>> Then he should have remained silent.
>>
>>SDWOTN
>
> Sorry, Henry, I sincerely disagree, and I'll bet Moshe does too.
Thanks for the plug. It's heartwarming that some remember it's me
who originated the acronym. (With help from Amitai Halevi A"H)
> Now had you Not tried to save a byte here, I would easily agree.
LOL!
Ken Bloom
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote in message news:<2004Oct1...@mm.huji.ac.il>...
>>
>> >> > > Hmm, only tapestries, or other media as well?
>>
>> Ummm Larissa, the Mishna Brura was writing about what was available
>> in his time. It's up to later-day poskim to extrapolate.
>
> But I'm certain that paper and writing/drawing implements were
> available at the time; why isn't paper specified?
In another post, I explained as follows:
The Mishna Berurah is the Chofetz Chaim's explanation of Orach Chayim,
one of the 4 sections of the Shulchan Aruch. Orach Chayim deals mostly
with prayer and holidays. Niddah, and weddings (lehavdil, vaguely related
subjects) are *not* in Orach Chayim, so I wouldn't expect to find all of
the specifics of pornography discussed there either.
The extent of my learning is rather small, so I haven't studied other
sources to quote (I haven't studied Mishna Berurah either, but I was
looking something up a few weeks ago and happened to run across this).
Tapestries were discussed in the context of whether it is permitted to
daven where a tapestry interposes between the davener and the wall.
Presumably other media are prohibited as well, but they probably wouldn't
be discussed in the Mishna Berurah.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> In article <3401-415...@storefull-3232.bay.webtv.net>, nom...@webtv.net writes:
>> I am the writer of the original post. Go to the Rip-Off
>> Reports web site and enter "Alyon Technologies" on the company search
>> engine.
>>
>> are suing the boss and his organization
>
>
> I hope the slimeball gets 20 years in the Federal Penetentiary.
I see that the Frank Parech is Stephane Touboul. He's an Orthodox Jew
like I'm the conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra. So I'm upping
my wish and hope the slimeball filth gets 30 years in the slammer.
Josh
>
> Josh
>
>
>
>> .
>> Move down about 20 angry postings and begin to read upwards. You will
>> suddenly come across some comments by the owner of Rip-Off defending
>> the company and the owner. Absolutely implausible and a stunning
>> surprise to those who were hurt by Alyon. (The owner of Rip Off has
>> been sued by Alyon so there may be reasons for the change of heart.)
>>
>> As part of his defense of the owner it is mentioned that he is a
>> "practicing Orthodox Jew", strongly implying that is another reason for
>> believing him.
>>
>> My grandfather was a beloved Rabbi with a congregation in New Rochelle,
>> New York. So I am unhappy that an Orthodox Jew would engage in such
>> practices.
>>
>> I had hoped to respond on Rip-Off reports.
>> .
>> However, I now will not. There are, as some of you have said,
>> practicing Orthodox Jews and Christians (and probably a few Buddhists
>> and Hindus) who can separate their beliefs from their actions.
>>
>>
>> Allan
>>
>> > >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
DarrinT68
>From: Z po...@imaris.demon.co.uk
>Date: 9/30/04 8:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <CAOTnNjO...@imaris.demon.co.uk>
>
>In article <10lo60r...@corp.supernews.com>, Eliyahu Rooff
><lro...@hotmail.com> writes
>>
>>"Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:MEhQWmN1...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
>>> In article <18283-415...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net>,
>>> nom...@webtv.net writes
>>> >There is an individual I know who provides internet collection
>>> >services for various porn sites. He and his company is being
>>> >investigated by some State Attorney Generals and the FTC for
>>harassing
>>> >people for payment who never visited the sites.
>>> >
>>> >The man is a practicing Orthodox Jew.
>>> >
>>> >Pornography may be borderline legal , but to me it is immoral.
>>> >Doesn't Orthodox Judaism preclude his involvement in such services.
>>> >Doesn't the Talmud and other writings suggest his actions are wrong?
>>> >
>>> >I have to explain this to non-Jewish friends.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Allan
>>> >
>>> I read that Jdate had a severe embarrassment when it turned out one of
>>> the models for the website was in fact a porn 'actress' Kari Gold from
>>> Central Europe.
>>> She had been presented to Jdate as a 22 y.o. model but it turned out
>>she
>>> is an 18y.o. pornstar.
>>>
>>It shouldn't be that big a problem for them. After all, who's going to
>>admit to recognizing her from her movies? :-)
>>
>>Eliyahu
>>
>>
>I did an exhaustive search of sites last night to corroborate if it was
>actually true or not. I didn't want to defame JDate on the basis of a
>'blog report.
>
>So is this Kari Gold actually Jewish? I noted in my search there were
>apparently quite a few allegedly Jewish porn 'actresses' Traci Lords,
>Jeanna Fine, Sindee Cox, Melissa Monet, Nina Hartley (nee Hartman) and
>Alexandra Silk>
Lords is purported to have Jewish ancestry on her paternal side. Hartley & Silk
are definitely Jewish, since both have gone on record. I have yet to confirm
the rest. BTW, why would you add allegedly? Are Jews automatically excluded
from sexuality & excelling in the adult entertainment industry? LOL! As the YID
of TID and an avid admirer of erotica, the following adult stars are
unequivocally Jewish:
Annie Sprinkle (b. Ellen Steinberg)
Gloria Leonard (b. Bronx, credited with having founded the phone-sex industry,
publisher of High Society)
Raylene (b. Stacey Bernstein)
Ona Zee
Nina Hartley (b. Hartman, as had been mentioned)
Barbara Dare (b. Stacey Mitnick)
Mila Shegol (b. Russia)
Janey Robbins (b. Robin Lieberman)
Alexandra Silk (as had been mentioned)
Ron Jeremy (b. Hyatt, Queens, NY - #1 adult performer of all-time)
Jamie Gillis (b. Gillman, NYC)
Jerry Butler (b. Paul Seiderman, Brooklyn, NY, father is Jewish)
Harry Reems (b. Herbert Streicher, Bronx, NY, converted to Christianity)
Sasha Gabor (b. Samuel Guttman)
Hershel Savage (b. NYC)
Richard Pacheco (former rabbinical student)
Randy West (b. Andy Abrams, NYC)
Marc Wallice (b. Goldberg)
William Margold
Seymour Butts (b. Adam Glasser, NYC - SHOwtime's "Family Business")
Paul Fishbine (AVN)
Steve Hirsch (VIVID)
Steve Orenstein (WICKED)
Bobby Hollander (director)
Al Goldstein (b. NYC, publisher - Screw, Midnight Blue)