Eicha tune question
Lisa
a search, so...
When I was growing up, I went to Camp Ramah. The way we did Eicha,
the first two and last two chapters were done according to the t'amim
(trope), but the third chapter was not.
The third chapter, for those who don't know, is made up of 66 verses.
The first 3 verses begin with aleph, the next 3 begin with bet, and so
on through the whole aleph-bet.
Anyway, the custom there was to sing each triplet with the same
melody. It was a haunting tune, and really worked the mood.
So the first time I went to shul on Tisha B'Av after I stopped working
at Ramah, they used the regular t'amim for the third chapter as well.
I was pretty much taken aback. And every year thereafter, wherever I
went, they used the t'amim.
Does anyone know if the custom we did at Ramah was based on anything?
Thanks,
Lisa
Ben Dreyfus
>When I was growing up, I went to Camp Ramah. The way we did Eicha,
>the first two and last two chapters were done according to the t'amim
>(trope), but the third chapter was not.
[...]
>Does anyone know if the custom we did at Ramah was based on anything?
I've never been to Ramah, and I've heard this custom at a number of
places.
--
Benjamin W Dreyfus dre...@post.harvard.edu
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Jonathan J. Baker
Some shuls do the third chapter in a special niggun. Zev Sero did it
that way a few years ago in Park Slope; I figure he picked it up in
Australia.
I'll forward the post to him.
--
Jonathan Baker | It's almost time ta muze
jjb...@panix.com | about the Destruction.
Webpage: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/>
toichen
Yes and no.
toichen
R
I have heard this being done in more than one place during my
youth. I don't know if I would dignify it by calling it a
"custom," but my guess is that it is based on the following:
Chapter 3 features almost entirely short pesukim. The trop
doesn't really work for these short pesukim, since you have very
little before the sof pasuk, and so it sounds monotonous, as if
composed entirely of sof pasuk with the short trop leading up to
the sof pasuk. The tune they use sounds more melodic. I suppose
if the purpose is to have a good time and enjoy the chanting,
that's the way to go. But if it's a religious ceremony, it ought
follow religious tradition.
Lisa
Thanks. That was helpful.
Lisa
Russell Steinthal
With all due respect, that entirely begs the question (and is probably a
bit disrespectful as well). I highly doubt that the people who use the
repetitive tune (and I've heard it both at Ramah and not, although the
non-Ramah group could easily have been Ramah-influenced) did it because
they want to "have a good time and enjoy the chanting." If anything,
people do it because it increases the *mournful* mood of Tisha b'Av.
But in any event, saying that "if it's a religious ceremony, it ought to
follow religious tradition" is not a useful answer to the question of
whether there *is* a legitimate tradition for it. Perhaps you haven't
heard of it, or it's not the way it's done in your community. That
doesn't necessarily mean there's no basis for it.
Nor is the existence of ta'amim necessarily proof that they should be
read ordinarily. Or is the nusach for Shirat ha-Yam also just a tune
for those who want to have a good time and enjoy the chanting?
Shavuah Tov,
Russell
--
--
Russell Steinthal <rm...@columbia.edu>
R
With all dur respect in turn, I will offer only few comments: a)
the rule is that kol hameshaneh yado al hatachtonah (the one
making the change bears the burden of proof that the change is
legitimate). b) As I mentioned, I HAD heard of it, and each time,
I questioned those responsible, and in not a single case could
they offer any source or support for what they were doing. And
though none of them said it explicitly, my impression from the
hummms and hawwws that they did offer was that it indeed is
something along the lines of the explanation I guess at in my
post. c) Perhaps you and I heard different tunes, or perhaps our
asthetic senses differ, but I didn't find the tune they used
particularly mournful. d) The nussach for Shiras HaYam is merely
a variant of the regular trop, not a brand new tune; as is the
nussach for Yamim Noraim. e) You gotta admit that the trop for
Eicha sounds pretty awful in Chapter 3, especially since the
chapter is so long. The temptation to "improve" on it is pretty
strong. The Haftarah for the 7th day of Pesach (which is also the
Haftarah Parshas Ha'azinu when it comes out after Yom Kippur)
also has for the most part short choppy pesukim that sound pretty
bad in the regular Haftarah trop, but it is much shorter, and so
the temptation to improvise is less.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
I don't know what tune was used there. I do know that in my shul, the
chazan does the first two and last two by the trop with the rest of
us going along at an undertone. The third we all do together as a
dirge. I know that R has come out against this so I'll try to find
the source for our custom. Remind me.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
May Eliyahu Chayim ben Sarah Henna (Eliot Shimoff) have a refuah Shlaima.
R
>
> li...@starways.net (Lisa) writes:
> > I can't remember if I ever asked this before, and it didn't turn up in
> > a search, so...
> >
> > When I was growing up, I went to Camp Ramah. The way we did Eicha,
> > the first two and last two chapters were done according to the t'amim
> > (trope), but the third chapter was not.
> >
> > The third chapter, for those who don't know, is made up of 66 verses.
> > The first 3 verses begin with aleph, the next 3 begin with bet, and so
> > on through the whole aleph-bet.
> >
> > Anyway, the custom there was to sing each triplet with the same
> > melody. It was a haunting tune, and really worked the mood.
> >
> > So the first time I went to shul on Tisha B'Av after I stopped working
> > at Ramah, they used the regular t'amim for the third chapter as well.
> > I was pretty much taken aback. And every year thereafter, wherever I
> > went, they used the t'amim.
> >
> > Does anyone know if the custom we did at Ramah was based on anything?
>
> I don't know what tune was used there. I do know that in my shul, the
> chazan does the first two and last two by the trop with the rest of
> us going along at an undertone. The third we all do together as a
> dirge. I know that R has come out against this so I'll try to find
> the source for our custom. Remind me.
If by "R" you mean me, I have not "come out against" it. I merely
offered a guess as to what the origin of this practice might be,
and my personal opinion of practices based on such rationales. If
you can indeed find the "source" for this "custom" I would
appreciate learning it, and it would be the very first time
anyone had offered me any sort of source.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> li...@starways.net (Lisa) writes:
>
>> > I can't remember if I ever asked this before, and it didn't turn up in
>> > a search, so...
>> >
>> > When I was growing up, I went to Camp Ramah. The way we did Eicha,
>> > the first two and last two chapters were done according to the t'amim
>> > (trope), but the third chapter was not.
>> >
>> > The third chapter, for those who don't know, is made up of 66 verses.
>> > The first 3 verses begin with aleph, the next 3 begin with bet, and so
>> > on through the whole aleph-bet.
>> >
>> > Anyway, the custom there was to sing each triplet with the same
>> > melody. It was a haunting tune, and really worked the mood.
>> >
>> > So the first time I went to shul on Tisha B'Av after I stopped working
>> > at Ramah, they used the regular t'amim for the third chapter as well.
>> > I was pretty much taken aback. And every year thereafter, wherever I
>> > went, they used the t'amim.
>> >
>> > Does anyone know if the custom we did at Ramah was based on anything?
>>
>> I don't know what tune was used there. I do know that in my shul, the
>> chazan does the first two and last two by the trop with the rest of
>> us going along at an undertone. The third we all do together as a
>> dirge. I know that R has come out against this so I'll try to find
>> the source for our custom. Remind me.
>
> If by "R" you mean me,
Yes, I meant you. It's not my fault you picked an initial that
happens to correspond to a "stream" of Judaism which shall remain
nameless here. :-)
> I have not "come out against" it. I merely offered a guess as to
> what the origin of this practice might be, and my personal opinion
> of practices based on such rationales.
That's what I said, you "came out" against it. <grin>
> If you can indeed find the "source" for this "custom" I would
> appreciate learning it, and it would be the very first time
> anyone had offered me any sort of source.
I'll try, B"N. Remind me.
Jay Braun
kinot. This chapter is essentially the first kinah ever written,
traditionally attributed to Jeremiah himself.
From a practical point of view, chanting this chapter with the melody
of kinot does "break the monotony", as one respondent indicated, but
that is not the reason to chant it in this manner.
In my own congregation (Beth Jacob in Beverly Hills, CA), I have
received mixed feedback to this tune. Some people love the haunting
melody, while others just love the trop so much that they want all
they can get. I continue to use it, in part because knowlege of this
nussach is disappearing.
If anyone would like a tape of a few triplets, please let me know.
Maybe I'll circulate a couple of tapes, and others can pass them on.
Better yet, if someone wants to postmy rendition after receiving the
tape, I would be very honored.
Jay
li...@starways.net (Lisa) wrote in message news:<cc62d1fa.03071...@posting.google.com>...
Zev Sero
>>> When I was growing up, I went to Camp Ramah. The way we did Eicha,
>>> the first two and last two chapters were done according to the t'amim
>>> (trope), but the third chapter was not.
>>> [...]
>>> Anyway, the custom there was to sing each triplet with the same
>>> melody. It was a haunting tune, and really worked the mood.
>> if the purpose is to have a good time and enjoy the chanting,
>> that's the way to go. But if it's a religious ceremony, it ought
>> follow religious tradition.
> With all due respect, that entirely begs the question (and is probably a
> bit disrespectful as well).
Yes, it does. It assumes that the non-trop tune is not itself a religious
tradition of long standing.
> I highly doubt that the people who use the
> repetitive tune (and I've heard it both at Ramah and not, although the
> non-Ramah group could easily have been Ramah-influenced)
I can state with certainty that the baal-koreh I heard it from never attended
Camp Ramah, and probably never in his life met anyone who had ever attended Camp
Ramah. Certainly those who taught him had never heard of Camp Ramah, and not
only because it didn't exist yet.
R <rut...@concentric.net> then replied:
> With all dur respect in turn, I will offer only few comments: a)
> the rule is that kol hameshaneh yado al hatachtonah (the one
> making the change bears the burden of proof that the change is
> legitimate).
Still begging the question: who is the meshaneh? Who tells you that the one
doing the 3-part dirge is changing an established custom of reading the trop?
Perhaps the one who decides to read the trop instead is ditching an ages-old
custom of reading this chapter to a traditional tune.
Just on general principles it seems to me that this, like almost everything
else like it, is probably a matter of regional custom. I don't know, though,
which regions had which custom.
> b) As I mentioned, I HAD heard of it, and each time,
> I questioned those responsible, and in not a single case could
> they offer any source or support for what they were doing.
Would you accept `I do it because that's the way they did it in the shul
where I grew up and learned to lain, and probably they did it that way there
because they did it that way in the shul where our baal koreh grew up and
learned to lain, because they did it that way in the shul where *he* grew
up and learned to lain'?
> d) The nussach for Shiras HaYam is merely
> a variant of the regular trop, not a brand new tune;
In part, but some parts of it completely ignore the trop. The tune for
`Hashem Ish milchama', e.g., turns the etnachta from a semi-colon into a
comma. The tune for 'needari bakoach', which is an etnachta, is the same
as that for `gaoh gaah', which is a zakef-katon, and different than that
for the etnachta on `Ish milchama'. Etc.
Zev, ego-scanning in deja-google-whatever.
Joe Sixpack
I'm not nuts! I remember this.
After never hearing it again, I figured it was that the guy who chanted the
third perek just didn't learn the Eichah trop from Hillel Gold. :P
SLS
"Lisa" <li...@starways.net> wrote in message
news:cc62d1fa.03071...@posting.google.com...