Are there Jewish railings against alleged Avodah Zarah within Orthodox Judaism?
Abdul-Khinzeer Kalbullaah al-Murtad Shabazz
The contents of this post are somewhat controversial, so I apologize
beforehand, but also want to note that in no way am I attempting to
positively assert that any particular doctrine in Judaism is "false" or
despised by God, or anything else like that.
Last night in Barnes & Noble I was flipping through Avrum Ehrlich's
"The Messiah of Brooklyn". He makes a reference to David Berger's
attempts to argue that certain members of Chabad should be
excommunicated from the Frum community for Messianic proclamations or
even idolatry, and notes that a small fringe within the Chabad
community actually argues that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was God or Divine
in some sense. I had heard this before, but what shocked me was a
portion where Ehrlich notes that it is a commonly held belief within
Chasidic circles that it is okay to prostrate before or even pray to a
Tsaddiq, and that doing such is no different from prostrating before or
praying to God, and that the Chabad Chasidim who proclaim the alleged
divinity of Schneerson simply take such a doctrine to its extreme
conclusion.
While I have no desire to cast doubt on the veracity of such doctrines
(assuming they exist), nor do I wish to even insinuate that they are
anathema to authentic Judaism, I was taken aback somewhat (i.e. I was
surprised). So here is my question: are there any Orthodox commentators
who rail against such practices as being "Avodah Zarah"? Are there
Orthodox Rabbis who are writing polemics against any particular
practice found within Ultra-Orthodox communities that they perceive to
be a slide towards idolatry? For example, are there Orthodox Rabbis who
criticize praying at the grave of a Tsaddiq?
I ask because, while I do not claim any ability to discern what is and
is not part of authentic Judaism, my *understanding* of the Jewish
conception of God (based on the TaNaKh, Bavli and a few other works I
have skimmed over the years) was that it was not terribly different
from the Orthodox Islamic conception of God (i.e. a very strict and
highly rigid Monotheism, where there can be no conflating of Creator
and creation). After reading such things as those noted above, I
wondered if (a) perhaps I was mistaken, and (b) there were any
contemporary Orthodox Rabbis who speak out against such practices due
to an understanding of Monotheism along the lines of what just
mentioned.
I look forward to the replies of others (and I would greatly appreciate
any recommended books or web sites). In the mean time, I'm going to get
my hands on Rav Berger's book on the Messianic movement within Chabad,
"The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference," in
an attempt to get a better grasp of the issues...
[Bafrely Related Side Note: Back in September of 2003 I was in a
library in Crown Heights and found a book by Chabad, which had an
article/chapter - I *think* authored by Rabbi Zushe A. Kohn - which
gave an interesting argument about how, within a Chasidic community, it
is the community's Rebbe that determines what is and is not apiqorsus.
Is this indeed a Chasidic belief, or at least a Chabad belief? And if
so, are there other Orthodox commentators who have criticized this
belief?]
Ron Aaron
Shabazz <abuk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Greetings...
Greetings, Oh Servant of the Pig:
....
> I ask because, while I do not claim any ability to discern what is and is
> not part of authentic Judaism, my *understanding* of the Jewish conception
> of God (based on the TaNaKh, Bavli and a few other works I have skimmed over
> the years) was that it was not terribly different from the Orthodox Islamic
> conception of God (i.e. a very strict and highly rigid Monotheism, where
> there can be no conflating of Creator and creation). After reading such
> things as those noted above, I wondered if (a) perhaps I was mistaken, and
> (b) there were any contemporary Orthodox Rabbis who speak out against such
> practices due to an understanding of Monotheism along the lines of what just
> mentioned.
Your understanding of what Judaism says about "strange worship" is completely
accurate. There are indeed contemporary Rabbis who rail against such
behavior.
However, it should be noted that there is a lot of anti-chassidic rhetoric
which is based purely on hysteria and hearsay.
> In the mean time, I'm going to get my hands on Rav Berger's book on the
> Messianic movement within Chabad, "The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal
> of Orthodox Indifference," in an attempt to get a better grasp of the
> issues...
Don't waste too much money on it; it's pretty much over-the-top. If you send
me your address and postage, I'll send you my copy...
As far as the rest of your questions about Chassidic practices, I'll defer to
actual Chassidim.
2m...@qlink.queensu.ca
with God, rather then the idea of the rebbe (in the general sense) as
God. What this can lead to is what sparked opposition, but calling it
idolatry is extreme.
Jose R. Nebro
>
> The contents of this post are somewhat controversial, so I apologize
> beforehand, but also want to note that in no way am I attempting to
> positively assert that any particular doctrine in Judaism is "false" or
> despised by God, or anything else like that.
Good introduction...
> Last night in Barnes & Noble I was flipping through Avrum Ehrlich's
> "The Messiah of Brooklyn". He makes a reference to David Berger's
> attempts to argue that certain members of Chabad should be
> excommunicated from the Frum community for Messianic proclamations or
> even idolatry, and notes that a small fringe within the Chabad
> community actually argues that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was God or Divine
> in some sense. I had heard this before, but what shocked me was a
> portion where Ehrlich notes that it is a commonly held belief within
> Chasidic circles that it is okay to prostrate before or even pray to a
> Tsaddiq, and that doing such is no different from prostrating before or
> praying to God, and that the Chabad Chasidim who proclaim the alleged
> divinity of Schneerson simply take such a doctrine to its extreme
> conclusion.
Does it remind you of something?.....How did Christianity
began?.......excommunication.........hmmmm that is an option!!!!
>
> While I have no desire to cast doubt on the veracity of such doctrines
> (assuming they exist), nor do I wish to even insinuate that they are
> anathema to authentic Judaism, I was taken aback somewhat (i.e. I was
> surprised). So here is my question: are there any Orthodox commentators
> who rail against such practices as being "Avodah Zarah"? Are there
> Orthodox Rabbis who are writing polemics against any particular
> practice found within Ultra-Orthodox communities that they perceive to
> be a slide towards idolatry? For example, are there Orthodox Rabbis who
> criticize praying at the grave of a Tsaddiq?
>
> I ask because, while I do not claim any ability to discern what is and
> is not part of authentic Judaism, my *understanding* of the Jewish
> conception of God (based on the TaNaKh, Bavli and a few other works I
> have skimmed over the years) was that it was not terribly different
> from the Orthodox Islamic conception of God (i.e. a very strict and
> highly rigid Monotheism, where there can be no conflating of Creator
> and creation).
Wow, that was my understanding as well.
Der Aibishter© Onan Ben Drusoy MD
news:d0im5t$39b$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
and notes that a small fringe within the Chabad
>> community actually argues that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was God or Divine
>
>
Now that I have officially been promoted to Aibishter© status, I hereby
excommunicate anyone who holds that ANYONE other than myself is Divine. That
means YOU! You are in CHEREM! Now, what does that entail again? No burial
while alive, or something like that?
OBD, der Aibishter©
Seriously, had anyone placed the 50 or so nutters who believe this way in
any sort of cherem, borderline meshichisten would have circled the wagons
and the nonsense would have spread. As it is, this kind of boreinu shtus is
moving from the fringe to the lunatic fringe.
IS using OBD account