Coffee on Shabbat
Tim Meushaw
know why the answer is that way.
I know that some authorities say you can set a VCR to record a TV show
on Shabbat, since you can't watch it then (yeah, I know, some say you
can't, too; work with me here). I was wondering, what's wrong with
setting up a coffee maker to make coffee on Shabbat? If you set a timer
to have it start, and you don't return the brewed coffee to the
burner/warmer on the maker, then what prohibition is being violated?
I've asked a few people, and they all have the same answer as me; we
know in our guts it's prohibited, we just don't know why.
Thanks for any help here,
Tim
P.S. I know you can make instant if you've got a supply of hot water; we
don't have one of those urns, though, but we do have a new fangled
coffee maker that you can set 24 hours in advance to start....
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Fiona
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote
If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that stops
the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because of borer
(separation). However, even on ground coffee made in a cup Israeli "botz"
(mud) style there is disagreement - we've had it here on SCJM before -
Sephardim hold (according to the Ben Ish Hai) that you can make coffee by
adding coffee beans or grounds to hot water because of ain bishul aher
bishul (once cooked it's cooked), but some Ashkenasim hold that because
baked in an oven they are baked not cooked and ain bishul aher bishul does
not apply. Personally I go by the Ben Ish Hai and make Turkish coffee from
grounds on Shabbat.
Fiona
Sheldon Ackerman
news:cd6skv$mjb$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
> If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that
> stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because
> of borer (separation).
Fiona, I read the question as being why are you not permitted to set a
timer BEFORE shabbos, just like you set the timer to turn the lights on.
Realize that there is an assumption being made here that it is not
permitted.
--
(Drop the first S for Emailing)
(s)acke...@dorsai.org
Fiona
"Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
> > If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that
> > stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because
> > of borer (separation).
>
> Fiona, I read the question as being why are you not permitted to set a
> timer BEFORE shabbos, just like you set the timer to turn the lights on.
> Realize that there is an assumption being made here that it is not
> permitted.
Yes, I did realise that and perhaps I should have mentioned it, but I felt
the issue of borer is more pertinent as I have yet to hear of any coffee
machine (filter, percolator, espresso, etc.) that doesn't contain a strainer
of some sort to keep the grounds and liquid separate. That strainer makes
coffee machines assur even if you switch them on before shabbat for that all
important java-cup after your friday night seudah, so regardless of all
other potential leniencies borer is *the* fundamental show-stopper for
coffee machines on shabbat.
If you want fresh coffee on shabbat it's botz or nowt (as say round here),
and as I said before not everyone permits even botz.
Fiona
Don Levey
>
> Yes, I did realise that and perhaps I should have mentioned it, but I felt
> the issue of borer is more pertinent as I have yet to hear of any coffee
> machine (filter, percolator, espresso, etc.) that doesn't contain a strainer
> of some sort to keep the grounds and liquid separate. That strainer makes
> coffee machines assur even if you switch them on before shabbat for that all
> important java-cup after your friday night seudah, so regardless of all
> other potential leniencies borer is *the* fundamental show-stopper for
> coffee machines on shabbat.
>
So would it be permitted to make it with the grounds, allow them to
settle, and drink the coffee off the grounds in the cup? Or perhaps
strain with your teeth?
> If you want fresh coffee on shabbat it's botz or nowt (as say round here),
> and as I said before not everyone permits even botz.
>
>
From what I've read here, it seems making it ahead of time and heating
it up (up to, but not exceeding, a particular temp) might be OK?
--
Don Levey $> cd /pub
Framingham, MA $> more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cd71ht$ful$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote
> > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> >
> > > If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in
it that
> > > stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur
because
> > > of borer (separation).
> >
> > Fiona, I read the question as being why are you not permitted to
set a
> > timer BEFORE shabbos, just like you set the timer to turn the
lights on.
> > Realize that there is an assumption being made here that it is
not
> > permitted.
>
> Yes, I did realise that and perhaps I should have mentioned it,
but I felt
> the issue of borer is more pertinent as I have yet to hear of any
coffee
> machine (filter, percolator, espresso, etc.) that doesn't contain
a strainer
> of some sort to keep the grounds and liquid separate.
Whle it may sound a bit flippant, how would that differ from opening
a window in my home on Shabbos where I have a screen in place to let
in air while filtering out the insects? (Or, for that matter,
running the air conditioner which has a dust filter in place? With
temperatures well over 100 F. this week, my AC is running 24/7.)
Eliyahu
Tim Meushaw
> If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that stops
> the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because of borer
> (separation).
Thanks, Fiona. As Steve and you touched on later, one thing I wasn't
sure of was if the borer would be allowed because I technically wouldn't
be doing it on Shabbat; I'm just setting it up in advance and the
machine does its thing without my intervention.
> However, even on ground coffee made in a cup Israeli "botz"
> (mud) style there is disagreement - we've had it here on SCJM before -
> Sephardim hold (according to the Ben Ish Hai) that you can make coffee by
> adding coffee beans or grounds to hot water because of ain bishul aher
> bishul (once cooked it's cooked), but some Ashkenasim hold that because
> baked in an oven they are baked not cooked and ain bishul aher bishul does
> not apply. Personally I go by the Ben Ish Hai and make Turkish coffee from
> grounds on Shabbat.
This confuses me a bit. Are you saying some hold that you can make
instant coffee on Shabbat, while others say you can't? Just clarifying.
Thanks,
Tim (who doesn't know what Turkish coffee is, but will have to look it
up on Google sometime :-) )
Fiona
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote
> Fiona <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > However, even on ground coffee made in a cup Israeli "botz"
> > (mud) style there is disagreement - we've had it here on SCJM before -
> > Sephardim hold (according to the Ben Ish Hai) that you can make coffee
by
> > adding coffee beans or grounds to hot water because of ain bishul aher
> > bishul (once cooked it's cooked), but some Ashkenasim hold that because
> > baked in an oven they are baked not cooked and ain bishul aher bishul
does
> > not apply. Personally I go by the Ben Ish Hai and make Turkish coffee
from
> > grounds on Shabbat.
>
> This confuses me a bit. Are you saying some hold that you can make
> instant coffee on Shabbat, while others say you can't? Just clarifying.
Ha ha, very punny (borer = clarify :-)
No, I'm not talking about instant coffee, but about making Turkish coffee in
an instant.
> Tim (who doesn't know what Turkish coffee is, but will have to look it
> up on Google sometime :-) )
Turkish coffee is the way coffee is traditionally made in the middle-east.
"Turkish" applies to the grounds which are very fine, almost a powder,
normally this is boiled up in a coffee pot with a long spout with large
amounts of sugar. It is served very strong in small cups (like espresso) but
without the grounds being filtered out, these settle in the bottom of the
cup. However, because the grounds are so fine, they still give out plenty of
flavour and unlike courser grounds, still sink to the bottom when hot water
is poured over them. This makes it possible to make a drinkable cup of real
coffee on shabbat, although you do need an urn for the ho water.
Fiona
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> Hey, all. I had a question that I know the basic answer to, but don't
> know why the answer is that way.
>
> I know that some authorities say you can set a VCR to record a TV show
> on Shabbat, since you can't watch it then (yeah, I know, some say you
> can't, too; work with me here). I was wondering, what's wrong with
> setting up a coffee maker to make coffee on Shabbat? If you set a timer
> to have it start, and you don't return the brewed coffee to the
> burner/warmer on the maker, then what prohibition is being violated?
> I've asked a few people, and they all have the same answer as me; we
> know in our guts it's prohibited, we just don't know why.
IRUI (pouring) from a KLI RISHON (kettle that was on the fire) "cooks"
(kdei klipa) [thin crust]. The halacha is that there is no BISHUL ACHAR
BISHUL (cooking a solid cooked food that has already been cooked) on shabbat
but there is (according to the YEREIM and other rishonim) Bishul achar afiya
(cooking after a food item was baked) and this is the halacha (Rema in Orach
Chayim 318:5).
As far as instant coffee is concerned, one can pour hot water into cup A,
and then from cup A pour water into cup B,and then place instant coffee
into cup B.
However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT been cooked: it is NOT
permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't do this: see:
Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba Shaul).
Josh
Paul
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cd71ht$ful$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
Fiona,
A question. What you are saying seems to make sense. However what about tea?
Most people drink tea that is either strained or using a tea bag.
Wouldn't the same principle apply?
I have yet to be in a shomer home on Shabbat where tea was not served.
SARAYALE
>From: bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>Date: 7/15/2004 10:18 PM Eastern Standard Time
>see:
>Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba Shaul).
Its "Mesas." They are shinin semoliyoth. Just like R. Yosef Ibn "Megas."
Mashash = "he felt." A strange name, no?
Sephardic names often have a sin to spell the "s" sound.
Ronnie
Asher N
>
Maybe I'm just dense here, but what is being separated? Water flows through
the grounds and the filter. All the grounds remain in the filter. At the
end of the process I have water that moved from the cofee maker into the
pot, the grounds are still in the filter, just wet. Eliyahu is right, how
is this different from an air filter where dust particles are removed from
the air as it goes through the filter. At least the coffe was never part of
the original water.
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
BS"D
We are not talking about a Jew making cofee. We're talking about a keili
making coffee. Keilim owned by a Jew are not required to remain inactive
over Shabbos. The Jew takes no active part in the whole process except
pouring the coffee. The coffeemaker was set before Shabbos.
I have seen coffee made on timer on Shabbos, but only in very modern
communities. Enough people have told me not to that I don't, but like Tim,
I never got a satisfactory answer. I've spoken with people (rabbis, but not
my rav) who say it should be completely mutar, yet we just don't do it. But
the fact of the matter is that plenty of keilim perform work for Jews on
Shabbos, when set ahead of time. Josh, your answer addresses the issue of a
Jew performing the melacha of bishul. It doesn't address the
coffeemaker-on-timer issue, keilim performing work for Jews on Shabbos when
set before Shabbos.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
James Kilner
> > Hey, all. I had a question that I know the basic answer to, but don't
> > know why the answer is that way.
> >
> > I know that some authorities say you can set a VCR to record a TV show
> > on Shabbat, since you can't watch it then (yeah, I know, some say you
> > can't, too; work with me here). I was wondering, what's wrong with
> > setting up a coffee maker to make coffee on Shabbat? If you set a timer
> > to have it start, and you don't return the brewed coffee to the
> > burner/warmer on the maker, then what prohibition is being violated?
> > I've asked a few people, and they all have the same answer as me; we
> > know in our guts it's prohibited, we just don't know why.
>
>
>
> IRUI (pouring) from a KLI RISHON (kettle that was on the fire) "cooks"
> (kdei klipa) [thin crust]. The halacha is that there is no BISHUL ACHAR
> BISHUL (cooking a solid cooked food that has already been cooked) on shabbat
> but there is (according to the YEREIM and other rishonim) Bishul achar afiya
> (cooking after a food item was baked) and this is the halacha (Rema in Orach
> Chayim 318:5).
Is the ground coffee which is placed in the coffee maker (I hope I've
got the same idea of coffee-maker as Tim here) liable to either of the
two statements of ein bishul achar bishul or ein bishul achar afiya?
I've got no idea if ground coffee has been pre-cooked (in one way or
another).
If the coffee has been pre-cooked, then is there a problem with
setting the machine up in advance?
Fiona
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
> Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> > I know that some authorities say you can set a VCR to record a TV show
> > on Shabbat, since you can't watch it then (yeah, I know, some say you
> > can't, too; work with me here). I was wondering, what's wrong with
> > setting up a coffee maker to make coffee on Shabbat? If you set a timer
> > to have it start, and you don't return the brewed coffee to the
> > burner/warmer on the maker, then what prohibition is being violated?
> > I've asked a few people, and they all have the same answer as me; we
> > know in our guts it's prohibited, we just don't know why.
> However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT been cooked: it is NOT
> permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't do this: see:
> Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba Shaul).
Neither Mashash nor Abba Shaul are considered greater authorities than the
Ben Ish Hai, and he permits. See Ben Ish Hai Year 2, Parashat Bo, 8 and 9.
So sorry Josh, you're wrong Sephardim do permit Turkish coffee on Shabbat.
Fiona
Sheldon Ackerman
news:cd71ht$ful$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk:
> That strainer makes
> coffee machines assur even if you switch them on before shabbat for
> that all important java-cup after your friday night seudah, so
> regardless of all other potential leniencies borer is *the*
> fundamental show-stopper for coffee machines on shabbat.
>
Why should "borer" be any different then "havarah"?
Tim Meushaw
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote in message news:<cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us>...
>> IRUI (pouring) from a KLI RISHON (kettle that was on the fire) "cooks"
>> (kdei klipa) [thin crust]. The halacha is that there is no BISHUL ACHAR
>> BISHUL (cooking a solid cooked food that has already been cooked) on shabbat
>> but there is (according to the YEREIM and other rishonim) Bishul achar afiya
>> (cooking after a food item was baked) and this is the halacha (Rema in Orach
>> Chayim 318:5).
>
> Is the ground coffee which is placed in the coffee maker (I hope I've
> got the same idea of coffee-maker as Tim here) liable to either of the
> two statements of ein bishul achar bishul or ein bishul achar afiya?
> I've got no idea if ground coffee has been pre-cooked (in one way or
> another).
You have the same idea. Coffee beans are roasted, then later ground,
either by you or the manufacturer. Apparently the argument is whether
that roasting process counts as cooking or not. :-)
> If the coffee has been pre-cooked, then is there a problem with
> setting the machine up in advance?
That's what I wanna know! ;-) As Craig eloquently outlined, so far the
answers have been against making coffee directly on Shabbat, but I'm
still confused as to why a timer couldn't do it for you if everything
were set up in advance (grounds put in, water put in, carafe/cup put in
place, timer set), when timers can be used to control lights, VCRs, etc.
Unless the cooking laws are more strict than the laws for other mechanical
devices, which is always a possibiilty.
Tim
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Yes. Instant coffee which is pre-cooked is problematic enough (re:
IRUI from a KLI RISHON); use of ground coffee (which is NOT cooked) would
be absolutely prohibited due BISHUL ACHAR AFIYA.
>
> If the coffee has been pre-cooked, then is there a problem with
> setting the machine up in advance?
Yes, my reply to Craig's post.
Josh
Sheldon Ackerman
news:blLJc.4292$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> I've spoken with people (rabbis, but not
> my rav) who say it should be completely mutar, yet we just don't do it.
I have learned the same. It seems that we can actually set up our complete
kitchen on timers. The oven has timers. The dishwasher and microwave have
timers. But we would lose out on the feeling of shabbos. Perhaps others
would say it is along the lines of "uvda d'chol." That is why R' Moshe
basically prohibited the use of timers saying that one can have all their
machines working all of shabbos and you won't even know it's shabbos. There
is also something called "avsha milsa" ( I think that's the term). I will
let Josh explain what that means.
Tim Meushaw
>> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
>> > If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that
>> > stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because
>> > of borer (separation).
>>
>> Fiona, I read the question as being why are you not permitted to set a
>> timer BEFORE shabbos, just like you set the timer to turn the lights on.
>> Realize that there is an assumption being made here that it is not
>> permitted.
>
> Yes, I did realise that and perhaps I should have mentioned it, but I felt
> the issue of borer is more pertinent as I have yet to hear of any coffee
> machine (filter, percolator, espresso, etc.) that doesn't contain a strainer
> of some sort to keep the grounds and liquid separate. That strainer makes
> coffee machines assur even if you switch them on before shabbat for that all
> important java-cup after your friday night seudah
Ah, I missed this the first time around, or it didn't register fully.
If you set it up before Shabbat, then on Shabbat you're not doing the
borering (yay Heblish). Why is it still assur in that case? Is it
finally time for me to get that _39 Melachos_ book series Cindy keeps
telling me about? :-)
Tim
Sheldon Ackerman
news:3RHJc.38338$2T2....@fe2.columbus.rr.com:
> I have yet to be in a shomer home on Shabbat where tea was not served.
>
Most Jewish home that I am aware of make tea "sense" before shabbos and
that is what is used to make the tea on shabbos.
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd8l6k$d5k$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <91175f50.04071...@posting.google.com>,
james...@iee.org (James Kilner) writes:
> > bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote in message
news:<cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us>...
> >> In article <slrncfds8a....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
<meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> > If the coffee has been pre-cooked, then is there a problem with
> > setting the machine up in advance?
>
> Yes, my reply to Craig's post.
BS"D
Which never showed up on my server, Josh.
Craig
>
> Josh
>
>
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Sigh ....
See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted ONLY
for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose engenders
the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an activity forbidden
to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving pleasure) from the
activity is prohibited. Thus,if a gentile prepared a cup of coffee or
tea on shabbat, the Jew is prohibited from drinking the beverage since
it was made on shabbat. See: TUR Orach Chayim 325 and Beit Yosef there
for Rabbenu Tam and RASHBA,; and Hagaoht Maimoniyot on Rambam Hilchot
Shabbat Ch.6 mentioning how the RAAVYA would have Jews who ate bread
baked by gentiles on shabbat publicly whipped. See also Tshvot haRASHBA as
brought in Beit Yosef TUR OC 253 Rema in OC 252:5 on ivsha milta (people
would *think* the coffee was actually cooked on shabbat) the prohibition
being "uvda d'chol".
>
> I have seen coffee made on timer on Shabbos, but only in very modern
> communities. Enough people have told me not to that I don't, but like Tim,
You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot. You did
NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat. [how right the Rema
was in OC 252:5!!!]
> I never got a satisfactory answer. I've spoken with people (rabbis, but not
> my rav) who say it should be completely mutar, yet we just don't do it. But
Nonsence.
> the fact of the matter is that plenty of keilim perform work for Jews on
> Shabbos, when set ahead of time. Josh, your answer addresses the issue of a
You conflated a number of issues.
> Jew performing the melacha of bishul. It doesn't address the
> coffeemaker-on-timer issue, keilim performing work for Jews on Shabbos when
> set before Shabbos.
>
Wrong !
Josh
Asher N
news:oNJJc.58557$W6.5...@fe2.texas.rr.com:
> "Asher N" <compg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9527F2E64A10...@66.250.171.186...
>> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:cd6skv$mjb$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
>> > If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it
>> > that stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur
>> > because of borer (separation). However, even on ground coffee made
>> > in a cup Israeli "botz" (mud) style there is disagreement - we've
>> > had it here on SCJM before - Sephardim hold (according to the Ben
>> > Ish Hai) that you can make coffee by adding coffee beans or grounds
>> > to hot water because of ain bishul aher bishul (once cooked it's
>> > cooked), but some Ashkenasim hold that because baked in an oven
>> > they are baked not cooked and ain bishul aher bishul does not
>> > apply. Personally I go by the Ben Ish Hai and make Turkish coffee
>> > from grounds on Shabbat.
>>
>> Maybe I'm just dense here, but what is being separated? Water flows
> through
>> the grounds and the filter. All the grounds remain in the filter. At
>> the end of the process I have water that moved from the cofee maker
>> into the pot, the grounds are still in the filter, just wet. Eliyahu
>> is right, how is this different from an air filter where dust
>> particles are removed from the air as it goes through the filter. At
>> least the coffe was never part
> of
>> the original water.
>
> Inside the basket there is coffee and coffee grounds. Outside
> the basket there is coffee.
>
> However, I'm with someone else -- why isn't this like setting a
> timer to turn a light on and off? I already know y'all think my
> water softner has got to go, even though I don't turn it on or
> off ever.
Inside the basket, there is water and coffe grounds. Outside the basket
there is cofee.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
In article <Xns95285A2586EAA...@129.250.170.86>, Sheldon Ackerman <sack...@dorsai.org> writes:
> "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:blLJc.4292$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> I've spoken with people (rabbis, but not
>> my rav) who say it should be completely mutar, yet we just don't do it.
>
> I have learned the same. It seems that we can actually set up our complete
> kitchen on timers. The oven has timers. The dishwasher and microwave have
No you can't. See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60. I see that my post (with extensive
references) posted a few hours ago hasn't yet been "approved" by the
moderators.
> timers. But we would lose out on the feeling of shabbos. Perhaps others
> would say it is along the lines of "uvda d'chol." That is why R' Moshe
> basically prohibited the use of timers saying that one can have all their
> machines working all of shabbos and you won't even know it's shabbos. There
> is also something called "avsha milsa" ( I think that's the term). I will
> let Josh explain what that means.
>
See Rema in OC 252:5.
Josh
Sheldon Ackerman
>
> No you can't. See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60. I see that my post (with
> extensive references) posted a few hours ago hasn't yet been
> "approved" by the moderators.
>
>
I know you can't, but the question everyone is asking is WHY?
Sheldon Ackerman
> See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted
> ONLY for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose
> engenders the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an
> activity forbidden to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving
> pleasure) from the activity is prohibited.
Rav Moshe permitted the use of timers on shabbat to turn lights on and off?
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
instead of staying up waiting for posts to come. hw ]
In article <BuRJc.4469$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> news:cd8l6k$d5k$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>> In article <91175f50.04071...@posting.google.com>,
> james...@iee.org (James Kilner) writes:
>> > bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote in message
> news:<cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us>...
>> >> In article <slrncfds8a....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
> <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> (snipped(
>> > If the coffee has been pre-cooked, then is there a problem with
>> > setting the machine up in advance?
>>
>> Yes, my reply to Craig's post.
>
> BS"D
>
> Which never showed up on my server, Josh.
It's ONLY been a few hours since I posted it. I guess the moderators
haven't yet "approved" it. Maybe in a few more hours or days, the post
will get "approved" and you'll see my very detailed answer.
Josh
>
> Craig
>>
>> Josh
>>
>>
>
Fiona
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote> >> Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
Amar harav sheli: In terms of Shabbat, Affiya is a sub-category of Bishul.
Therefore, when we say ain bishul ahar bishul, bishul includes affiya, and
coffee using Turkish grounds is muttar on Shabbat. Disagree? Fine, being
machmir is your prerogative, however, forbidding to others what is permitted
is plain wrong. The Ben Ish Hai explicitly permits Turkish coffee from
grounds on Shabbat (Ben Ish Hai Year 2, Parashat Bo, 8 and 9), so those who
don't want to hold by Josh Almighty do have on what to rely.
Fiona
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd8qgo$kch$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <blLJc.4292$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Craig
Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> > news:cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >> In article <slrncfds8a....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
> > <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> >
> > BS"D
> >
> > We are not talking about a Jew making cofee. We're talking about a
keili
> > making coffee. Keilim owned by a Jew are not required to remain
inactive
> > over Shabbos. The Jew takes no active part in the whole process except
> > pouring the coffee. The coffeemaker was set before Shabbos.
>
>
> Sigh ....
>
>
> See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted ONLY
> for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose engenders
> the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an activity
forbidden
> to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving pleasure) from the
> activity is prohibited. Thus,if a gentile prepared a cup of coffee or
> tea on shabbat, the Jew is prohibited from drinking the beverage since
> it was made on shabbat. See: TUR Orach Chayim 325 and Beit Yosef there
> for Rabbenu Tam and RASHBA,; and Hagaoht Maimoniyot on Rambam Hilchot
> Shabbat Ch.6 mentioning how the RAAVYA would have Jews who ate bread
> baked by gentiles on shabbat publicly whipped. See also Tshvot haRASHBA as
> brought in Beit Yosef TUR OC 253 Rema in OC 252:5 on ivsha milta (people
> would *think* the coffee was actually cooked on shabbat) the prohibition
> being "uvda d'chol".
I will look at it, but I cannot see how he could rule that way, just off the
top of my head. Just as a layman, I would think the ivsha milta argument
would hold more water.
> >
> > I have seen coffee made on timer on Shabbos, but only in very modern
> > communities. Enough people have told me not to that I don't, but like
Tim,
>
>
> You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot. You did
> NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat. [how right the Rema
> was in OC 252:5!!!]
No, I saw Mr. Coffees, Black and Deckers, and others being timed to heat
water and make coffee on Shabbos morning. Remember, Josh, I was there and
you were not, and I know what I saw. I also have seen that most people do
not do this. I have seen coffeemakers in such a capacity even in some
rabbi's houses (but I'm talking only 2 rabbi's houses).
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote in news:cd8qgo$kch$1...@falcon.steinthal.us:
>
>> See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted
>> ONLY for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose
>> engenders the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an
>> activity forbidden to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving
>> pleasure) from the activity is prohibited.
>
> Rav Moshe permitted the use of timers on shabbat to turn lights on and off?
barely , almost :-)
Josh
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd8qgo$kch$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <blLJc.4292$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Craig
Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> > news:cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >> In article <slrncfds8a....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
> > <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> >
> > BS"D
> >
> > We are not talking about a Jew making cofee. We're talking about a
keili
> > making coffee. Keilim owned by a Jew are not required to remain
inactive
> > over Shabbos. The Jew takes no active part in the whole process except
> > pouring the coffee. The coffeemaker was set before Shabbos.
>
>
> Sigh ....
>
>
> See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted ONLY
> for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose engenders
> the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an activity
forbidden
> to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving pleasure) from the
> activity is prohibited. Thus,if a gentile prepared a cup of coffee or
> tea on shabbat, the Jew is prohibited from drinking the beverage since
> it was made on shabbat. See: TUR Orach Chayim 325 and Beit Yosef there
> for Rabbenu Tam and RASHBA,; and Hagaoht Maimoniyot on Rambam Hilchot
> Shabbat Ch.6 mentioning how the RAAVYA would have Jews who ate bread
> baked by gentiles on shabbat publicly whipped. See also Tshvot haRASHBA as
> brought in Beit Yosef TUR OC 253 Rema in OC 252:5 on ivsha milta (people
> would *think* the coffee was actually cooked on shabbat) the prohibition
> being "uvda d'chol".
OK, so what happens if one sets the cofeemaker's timer once, to go on and
off at a set time every day? One is then not asking the coffeemaker and
timer specifically to perform an act on Shabbos- it does it on all other
days as well. Then, only uvda d'chol would hold. No? One can derive
benefit from work performed by goyim on Shabbos, just not specifically
request that they do it on Shabbos. I remember when my wife went into the
hospital for her first labor and delivery, we asked Rav Belsky whether she
could eat (kosher) meals on Shabbos which were heated in a microwave by the
nurse or orderly, and the answer was affirmative, but she could not
specifically request it.
Ron Aaron
> We are not talking about a Jew making cofee. We're talking about a keili
> making coffee. Keilim owned by a Jew are not required to remain inactive
> over Shabbos. The Jew takes no active part in the whole process except
> pouring the coffee. The coffeemaker was set before Shabbos.
Yes. According to Rambam and Chazal you are right; according to the "Hadash
'asur min hatorah" crowd you are in danger of losing your next gilgul if you
make coffee.
I don't make coffee, but only because I don't have such a "ta'avah" for it
that I'm willing to put in the effort to have it ready... I have enough to do
before shabbat as it is.
However, I do have lights on a timer. I also have a blech on a timer. And
I make tea "essence" rather than using a teabag, but my Rabbi *does* use
a teabag.
> Enough people have told me not to that I don't, but like Tim,
> I never got a satisfactory answer. I've spoken with people (rabbis, but not
> my rav) who say it should be completely mutar, yet we just don't do it. But
And this is a huge problem today: people turning "gut feelings" into halachah
lema`aseh (in their own minds). If the Rabbi cannot explain why it is
forbidden, he should realize it is not. "what is not forbidden is permitted".
> coffeemaker-on-timer issue, keilim performing work for Jews on Shabbos when
> set before Shabbos.
Which is completely permitted, see hil' shabbat 3:1.
There may be other issues: for example, returning the carafe to the machine,
but they have nothing to do with making coffee per se.
Ron Aaron
> Use of them for any other purpose engenders
> the category of amira l'akum
How is a timer "`akum"? Does it worship the electrons powering it?
What does the Rabbi do with hil' shabbat 3:1 ?
> Shabbat Ch.6 mentioning how the RAAVYA would have Jews who ate bread
That is when he asked an *actual goy*. Not when he himself started
a mel'achah *before shabbat* which continued its action *on shabbat*, which
Rambam specifically says is permitted, and the results of which are also
permitted.
> You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot. You did
> NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat. [how right the Rema
> was in OC 252:5!!!]
WADR Josh, how could you possibly know what *Craig* saw?
Eliyahu Rooff
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd8qgo$kch$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <blLJc.4292$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >
> > I have seen coffee made on timer on Shabbos, but only in very
modern
> > communities. Enough people have told me not to that I don't,
but like Tim,
>
>
> You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot.
You did
> NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat. [how right
the Rema
> was in OC 252:5!!!]
>
market soon? It'd sure be handy when interviewing witnesses in some
of our cases, since what they report seeing isn't always what we'd
like them to have seen.
Eliyahu
Eliyahu Rooff
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrncffjn3....@athens.meushaw.com...
coffee grounds out of coffee is different than using a window screen
to keep flies out of my living room while admitting the air in which
they're flying. With temperatures here in excess of 100 degrees
again and expected to be higher tomorrow, I'm hoping no one will
suggest that I'm required to keep the windows shut on Shabbos.
Eliyahu
Nick
Hebrew or any other non-English language HPG ]
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd8qic$kf8$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
And someone people might say that meanwhile there are 100,000 people dying
in Sudan!
What is "borer" and what is "sense"?
On uk.religion.jewish we are not allowed to use Hebrew terms (I think) -
presumably so that it doesn't exclude anybody, so I think that people should
be encouraged to explain the meaning of terminology, otherwise it just
becomes frum people talking to themselves.
Nick
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
So you have two "rabbis" who are ignorant of hilchot shabbat. Your example
doesn't prove anything.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
No
> benefit from work performed by goyim on Shabbos, just not specifically
The laws of amira l'akum are very complex. The baseline is that one can NOT
derive benefit from work carried out on shabbt by a gentile except under very
limited circumstances. There's no carte blanche permission.
Josh
Nick
news:cd8rfk$lrs$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
I seem to remember that at one time Orthodox would always qualify their
comments to this or a similar newsgroup that you should not go on what the
poster had said but consult your local Orthodox rabbi. Whatever happened to
that injunction?
Nick
Tim Meushaw
<snip>
> I seem to remember that at one time Orthodox would always qualify their
> comments to this or a similar newsgroup that you should not go on what the
> poster had said but consult your local Orthodox rabbi. Whatever happened to
> that injunction?
Believe me, after seeing how this thread is going, I'm definately asking
my LOR once I have the opportunity. ;-) I didn't realize the issue was
so complicated or hard to explain when I asked my question, though it
might be easier to follow if I had any access or ability to read any of
the texts Josh has referenced....
Tim
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:cd93vr$213$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
Well, since I'm talking about 2 rabbis with good semicha, I hardly think
"rabbis" in quotes like that is warranted, Josh. One had semicha from Ner
Yisroel, the other from Brisk Yerushalayim. Whether they are or were
ignorant of hilchos Shabbos is questionable. Perhaps they simply don't hold
by those who would prohibit, and have found more persuasive arguments among
those who would permit. At least one of them feels that we'll be called to
account for shunning permissible pleasures in this world. It's easy to
assur these days, and not so easy to mutar, more so now than perhaps at any
time in history.
Sheldon Ackerman
> Believe me, after seeing how this thread is going, I'm definately asking
> my LOR once I have the opportunity. ;-) I didn't realize the issue was
> so complicated or hard to explain when I asked my question, though it
> might be easier to follow if I had any access or ability to read any of
> the texts Josh has referenced....
>
You should ask your LOR.
Here is the source for my first posting on this topic. The Piskei Tshuva
Simmon 252.
The topic there is Using Electrical Machines(instruments) from Erev shabbos
so they should work on shabbos (my translation).
He goes on to say that some poskim say it is only permitted if the work
(cooking or whatever it may be) starts before shabbos and ends by itself on
shabbos, but that it is prohibited from doing anything that would cause the
"work" to start on shabbos. Other poskim say that it makes no
difference.You are permitted to use the timer to even start the "work" on
shabbos.
The Piskei Tshuva ends of by saying that in conclusion the poskim say we
should not use timers in this fashion to have "work" start on shabbos. Rav
Moshe is one of these poskim. He then concludes that one may use timers
only where the majority of the poskim permitted them like lights, heating
and air conditioning, and hot plates (I think I translated that laste item
properly).
I recall what my Rav said when we were learning these halachos. He set up a
scenario where one would not even know it was shabbos. The food would
automatically end up being cooked as you walked into the house after
davening. The dishwasher would be set to start more or less an hour after
the meal, and so on and so forth. Use your imagination. The expression in
the piskei tshuva is "there is no greater zilzul of shabbos than this.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote in message
news:Xns952891EF15A78...@129.250.170.84...
day by a computer that is preset to match our routines and desires
or that senses our presence or absence, why would this be a problem?
Wouldn't shutting it all down on Shabbos make it a less pleasant day
and one we would not look forward to? The machines in this "house
of the future" neither need nor desire a day of rest and are quite
ready to carry on their normal functions without any input from us,
just as the city's utilities continue to operate 24/7. If we need
to be reminded of Shabbos by our machinery failing to function, we
have far more problems than we can imagine.
Eliyahu
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
> Here is the source for my first posting on this topic. The Piskei Tshuva
> Simmon 252.
> The topic there is Using Electrical Machines(instruments) from Erev
shabbos
> so they should work on shabbos (my translation).
> He goes on to say that some poskim say it is only permitted if the work
> (cooking or whatever it may be) starts before shabbos and ends by itself
on
> shabbos, but that it is prohibited from doing anything that would cause
the
> "work" to start on shabbos. Other poskim say that it makes no
> difference.You are permitted to use the timer to even start the "work" on
> shabbos.
> The Piskei Tshuva ends of by saying that in conclusion the poskim say we
> should not use timers in this fashion to have "work" start on shabbos. Rav
> Moshe is one of these poskim. He then concludes that one may use timers
> only where the majority of the poskim permitted them like lights, heating
> and air conditioning, and hot plates (I think I translated that laste item
> properly).
BS"D
In other words, the Piskei Tshuva seems to be saying he agrees with those
who permit, but don't make waves, don't stand out, follow the custom of the
community. Prohibit even when mutar unless it is the specific custom of
the community. A singularly unsatisfying answer for me- I don't know about
anyone else.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
>
> I recall what my Rav said when we were learning these halachos. He set up
a
> scenario where one would not even know it was shabbos. The food would
> automatically end up being cooked as you walked into the house after
> davening. The dishwasher would be set to start more or less an hour after
> the meal, and so on and so forth. Use your imagination. The expression in
> the piskei tshuva is "there is no greater zilzul of shabbos than this.
And he doesn't think that desire to have things as on a weekday is
self-regulating? A Torah observant Jew makes many separations around
Shabbos. It may not be Shabbosdik to have a television going on Shabbos,
but is that any reason not to have decent coffee? By the way, I've never
seen a dishwasher on a timer, and besides, who wants the noise in the
background? But a wonderful cup of fresh brewed coffee in the morning,
well, that's a pleasure.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
>
Tim Meushaw
Thanks a lot for the translation!
> I recall what my Rav said when we were learning these halachos. He set up a
> scenario where one would not even know it was shabbos. The food would
> automatically end up being cooked as you walked into the house after
> davening. The dishwasher would be set to start more or less an hour after
> the meal, and so on and so forth. Use your imagination. The expression in
> the piskei tshuva is "there is no greater zilzul of shabbos than this.
Sounds perfect to me. :-) We're not commanded to refrain from
everything, we're just not supposed to break halacha, while at the same
time make it a day of joy.
So the house is taking care of all these things for me. It's not the
house's job to know it's Shabbat, though, it's mine. So I'd know it was
Shabbat by saying kiddush, singing zemirot, going to shul in the morning
(and not driving home half an hour later), etc. The house is simply
making tasks easier, and if you can't tell it's Shabbat, that seems to
be the fault of the people, not the house. Unless your Rav was referring
to outsiders looking in; if all these tasks are going on like they would
during the week, then if the outsiders just saw those tasks, then yes,
they wouldn't know it was Shabbat. But if they observe the people, they
should be able to know, so the same conclusion applies. Just my thoughts.
BTW, what's "zilzul"?
Shabbat shalom,
Tim Meushaw
>
> "Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns952891EF15A78...@129.250.170.84...
>> The Piskei Tshuva ends of by saying that in conclusion the poskim say we
>> should not use timers in this fashion to have "work" start on shabbos. Rav
>> Moshe is one of these poskim. He then concludes that one may use timers
>> only where the majority of the poskim permitted them like lights, heating
>> and air conditioning, and hot plates (I think I translated that laste item
>> properly).
>
> who permit, but don't make waves, don't stand out, follow the custom of the
> community. Prohibit even when mutar unless it is the specific custom of
> the community. A singularly unsatisfying answer for me- I don't know about
> anyone else.
It has precedent, though. The one I can think of is the halacha (I
forget where I learned it) that if the entire community starts Shabbat
early, then it should start early for you, as you're not empowered to
go against the will of the community. Technically, Shabbat doesn't
start for another 45 minutes, but the entire community already rang it
in, and so you'd be going against the custom of your community by not
starting it with them. I seem to recall there are other scenarios, too,
but I don't remember them at the moment.
Not that I'm saying I agree with this practice. ;-)
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrncfgbnl....@athens.meushaw.com...
BS"D
But Tim, your argument doesn't really hold water. With beginning Shabbos
early, one must be more stringent than one normally would, making for a
longer Shabbos day (since one can not end Shabbos early as well), whereas
the Piskei Tshuva is saying we can only be more lenient with our Shabbos
observance (in this particular regard) where the community follows that
custom. And indeed, there seems to be enough machlokes in this regard that
we're discussing custom, rather than halacha. So the question is, can you
have a binding custom *not* to do something if the question has not even
come up for 3 successive generations in any particular region? Sounds like
just another instance of "when in Rome..". So it's OK to differentiate
onesself as more strict than the surrounding community, but not OK to
differentiate onesself as more lenient. After all, if the community starts
Shabbos at shkia (or 18 minutes before, of course), it's OK for any single
family or small group to take it on early (as long as there is a minyan for
the tzibor), but not if the community starts early and it's the other way
around.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
>
Sheldon Ackerman
berlin.de:
> f we start with a "house of the future" where this is done every
> day by a computer that is preset to match our routines and desires
> or that senses our presence or absence, why would this be a problem?
> Wouldn't shutting it all down on Shabbos make it a less pleasant day
> and one we would not look forward to? The machines in this "house
> of the future" neither need nor desire a day of rest and are quite
> ready to carry on their normal functions without any input from us,
> just as the city's utilities continue to operate 24/7. If we need
> to be reminded of Shabbos by our machinery failing to function, we
> have far more problems than we can imagine.
>
>
This is not the first time you posted long these lines. The question you
ask and have asked and stated before simply means that you do not
understand what shabbos is and no one will be able to explain it to you.
This is not a "put down". You may as well ask what is meant by "uvda
d'chol"? What makes something an uvda d'chol. The answer is you either have
a feeling for it or you don't. If you don't, you make sure you ask your LOR
and follow what he says. Shabbos is not about doing whatever we want so
that we can have a happy shabbos. If that were so then instead of coming up
with things that are prohibited on shabbos, we should have had things
prohibited during the week and made permissable for the shabbos.
Eliyahu Rooff
"Tim Meushaw" <meu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrncfgbi9....@athens.meushaw.com...
OTOH, if this "house of the future" (as I mention in a separate
post) is the norm in a community or society, no one would think
twice about what's going on.
But if they observe the people, they
> should be able to know, so the same conclusion applies. Just my
thoughts.
>
> BTW, what's "zilzul"?
>
It's disrespect or belittling.
Eliyahu
Sheldon Ackerman
news:pfVJc.4636$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> In other words, the Piskei Tshuva seems to be saying he agrees with
> those who permit, but don't make waves, don't stand out, follow the
> custom of the community. Prohibit even when mutar unless it is the
> specific custom of the community. A singularly unsatisfying answer
> for me- I don't know about anyone else.
>
When it comes to halacha, as you've gathered, you can generally find poskim
who say one thing and others who say the opposite. There are accepted rules
who we should follow. A Rav with smicha knows this rules. The piskei tshuva
ends off saying that we should not use the timer except for what we
generally have been using it for. He bases this on what has been paskened
for our generation.
Sheldon Ackerman
what they say. He then lists the poskim who state what the halacha is. Once
we have a posek like Rav Moshe who stated something, then you really have
no right to follow a local Rav who is in no way comparable to a Rav Moshe.
You need to know certain guidelines which neither you or I are aware of.
That is why we need a LOR. Speculation on your part or mine serves no
purpose.
"Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:nFWJc.4759$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> But Tim, your argument doesn't really hold water. With beginning
> Shabbos early, one must be more stringent than one normally would,
> making for a longer Shabbos day (since one can not end Shabbos early
> as well), whereas the Piskei Tshuva is saying we can only be more
> lenient with our Shabbos observance (in this particular regard) where
> the community follows that custom. And indeed, there seems to be
> enough machlokes in this regard that we're discussing custom, rather
> than halacha. So the question is, can you have a binding custom *not*
> to do something if the question has not even come up for 3 successive
> generations in any particular region? Sounds like just another
> instance of "when in Rome..". So it's OK to differentiate onesself as
> more strict than the surrounding community, but not OK to
> differentiate onesself as more lenient. After all, if the community
> starts Shabbos at shkia (or 18 minutes before, of course), it's OK for
> any single family or small group to take it on early (as long as there
> is a minyan for the tzibor), but not if the community starts early and
> it's the other way around.
>
>
--
Eliyahu Rooff
> "Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:2lql91Ffnhq7U1@uni-
> berlin.de:
>
> > f we start with a "house of the future" where this is done every
> > day by a computer that is preset to match our routines and
desires
> > or that senses our presence or absence, why would this be a
problem?
> > Wouldn't shutting it all down on Shabbos make it a less pleasant
day
> > and one we would not look forward to? The machines in this
"house
> > of the future" neither need nor desire a day of rest and are
quite
> > ready to carry on their normal functions without any input from
us,
> > just as the city's utilities continue to operate 24/7. If we
need
> > to be reminded of Shabbos by our machinery failing to function,
we
> > have far more problems than we can imagine.
> >
> >
>
question you
> ask and have asked and stated before simply means that you do not
> understand what shabbos is and no one will be able to explain it
to you.
> This is not a "put down". You may as well ask what is meant by
"uvda
> d'chol"? What makes something an uvda d'chol. The answer is you
either have
> a feeling for it or you don't. If you don't, you make sure you ask
your LOR
> and follow what he says. Shabbos is not about doing whatever we
want so
> that we can have a happy shabbos. If that were so then instead of
coming up
> with things that are prohibited on shabbos, we should have had
things
> prohibited during the week and made permissable for the shabbos.
>
now been 62 years since this community lost its one and only rabbi
(who was, BTW, Reform), it may be a bit of a wait.
Eliyahu
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
> Craig, the piskei tshuva in his footnotes lists all the major poskim and
> what they say. He then lists the poskim who state what the halacha is.
Once
> we have a posek like Rav Moshe who stated something, then you really have
> no right to follow a local Rav who is in no way comparable to a Rav Moshe.
> You need to know certain guidelines which neither you or I are aware of.
> That is why we need a LOR. Speculation on your part or mine serves no
> purpose.
BS"D
Wrong, Sheldon, speculation on our parts serves a definite purpose- it's
fun.
Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines
"Eliyahu Rooff" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2lqsrhF...@uni-berlin.de...
BS"D
Elliot, with communications and transportation capabilities these days, one
can have a "local orthodox rabbi" thousands of miles away. Take bedika
cloths, for example, something for which one might think one needed a local
examiner. FedEx overnight, however, works wonders. Explain a question
properly to a rav over the phone, and you'll likely come up with the proper
psak for that shaila. In short, when we say "Local Rav", it really means
acquiring a rav with whom you have access, not really local. I'll bet that
we orthodox scjmers can even help you acquire one.
Craig Winchell
GAN EDEN Wines
>
> Eliyahu
>
>
Henry Goodman
"Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cd92f2$n3j$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>
> And someone people might say that meanwhile there are 100,000 people
dying
> in Sudan!
>
The present tragic situation in Sudan is a vivid demonstration of the
terrrible consequences of a territorial dispute between Arabs and a
weaker people. It is a clear proof of the critical necessity for
Israel to be strong to be able to defend itself against such enemies.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
Sheldon Ackerman
> Wrong, Sheldon, speculation on our parts serves a definite purpose- it's
> fun.
>
I guess it's ok then :-)
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> "Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote
> > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> >
> > > If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that
> > > stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because
> > > of borer (separation).
> >
> > Fiona, I read the question as being why are you not permitted to set a
> > timer BEFORE shabbos, just like you set the timer to turn the lights on.
> > Realize that there is an assumption being made here that it is not
> > permitted.
>
> Yes, I did realise that and perhaps I should have mentioned it, but I felt
> the issue of borer is more pertinent as I have yet to hear of any coffee
> machine (filter, percolator, espresso, etc.) that doesn't contain a strainer
> of some sort to keep the grounds and liquid separate. That strainer makes
> coffee machines assur even if you switch them on before shabbat for that all
> important java-cup after your friday night seudah, so regardless of all
> other potential leniencies borer is *the* fundamental show-stopper for
> coffee machines on shabbat.
>
> If you want fresh coffee on shabbat it's botz or nowt (as say round here),
> and as I said before not everyone permits even botz.
First, if it is not permitted because of cooking, even with a timer it
wouldn't be permissible until after Shabbat (AFAIK).
Second, I saw in Yehhave Da`at that Harav Yosef permits making coffee
(not just botz) even with a filter, since it isn't really borer
(something like there is no "separate" mixture from which one is
filtering out the grounds). He also deals with other possible
objections as well. Of course, those Ashkenazim that don't permit
teabags would prohibit also coffee.
-Shlomo-
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
Sheldon Ackerman <sack...@dorsai.org> writes:
> "Paul" <pa...@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:3RHJc.38338$2T2....@fe2.columbus.rr.com:
>
> > I have yet to be in a shomer home on Shabbat where tea was not served.
> >
>
> Most Jewish home that I am aware of make tea "sense" before shabbos and
> that is what is used to make the tea on shabbos.
The main issue there is the issue of "cooking" the tea leaves, not
straining - this is according to the view that tea leaves are "kalei
habishul" (easily cooked) and thus even with water from a "third
vessel" will cook (even though they are already roasted). Using a
teabag per se is not straining, and one is indeed FORBIDDEN to squeeze
out the tea bag.
-Shlomo-
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote>> >> Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
>
>> >> > Hey, all. I had a question that I know the basic answer to, but
> don't
>> >> > know why the answer is that way.
>> >> >
>> >> > I know that some authorities say you can set a VCR to record a TV
> show
>> >> > on Shabbat, since you can't watch it then (yeah, I know, some say you
>> >> > can't, too; work with me here). I was wondering, what's wrong with
>> >> > setting up a coffee maker to make coffee on Shabbat? If you set a
> timer
>> >> > to have it start, and you don't return the brewed coffee to the
>> >> > burner/warmer on the maker, then what prohibition is being violated?
>> >> > I've asked a few people, and they all have the same answer as me; we
>> >> > know in our guts it's prohibited, we just don't know why.
>> >>
>> >> IRUI (pouring) from a KLI RISHON (kettle that was on the fire) "cooks"
>> >> (kdei klipa) [thin crust]. The halacha is that there is no BISHUL ACHAR
>> >> BISHUL (cooking a solid cooked food that has already been cooked) on
> shabbat
>> >> but there is (according to the YEREIM and other rishonim) Bishul achar
> afiya
>> >> (cooking after a food item was baked) and this is the halacha (Rema in
> Orach
>> >> Chayim 318:5).
>> >
>> > Is the ground coffee which is placed in the coffee maker (I hope I've
>> > got the same idea of coffee-maker as Tim here) liable to either of the
>> > two statements of ein bishul achar bishul or ein bishul achar afiya?
>> > I've got no idea if ground coffee has been pre-cooked (in one way or
>> > another).
>>
>> IRUI from a KLI RISHON); use of ground coffee (which is NOT cooked) would
>> be absolutely prohibited due BISHUL ACHAR AFIYA.
>
> Amar harav sheli: In terms of Shabbat, Affiya is a sub-category of Bishul.
> Therefore, when we say ain bishul ahar bishul, bishul includes affiya, and
> coffee using Turkish grounds is muttar on Shabbat. Disagree? Fine, being
> machmir is your prerogative, however, forbidding to others what is permitted
> is plain wrong. The Ben Ish Hai explicitly permits Turkish coffee from
> grounds on Shabbat (Ben Ish Hai Year 2, Parashat Bo, 8 and 9), so those who
> don't want to hold by Josh Almighty do have on what to rely.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bishul achar afiya: check the YEREIM 134b, the SEMAK as brought in the
Beit Yosef TUR OC 318 derived from the gemara in Pesachim 41a. The prohibition
is Toraitic. The TUR accepts the RAAVYA (as brought in the Mordechai in
Perek haKira) and permits in a kli sheni (but accepts the ruling of the
YEREIM regarding a kli rishon). And this is ruled l'halacha (Orach Chayim
318:5. The Aruch haShulchan OC 318 #24 indicates that the Mechaber rules
like the YEREIM l'chumra.
Rav Shalom Massas in Kevod Chachamim Ateret Paz indicates that what Rav
Ovadya Yosef was referring to in Yechaveh Daat II 44 re: black coffee
was referring to a KLI SHENI and **not** a kli rishon. See also Mishpetei
Uzziel X Mahadura Tinyana 44 who also forbids (Sefardim !) to pour hot
water over black (Turkish) coffee on shabbat.
Josh (who gives a weekly shiur in Hilchot Shabbat)
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Inside the basket, there is water and coffe grounds. Outside the basket
> there is cofee.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's
too dark to read. (With apologies to Mark Twain)
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
Fiona
"Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)" <arg...@sunlight.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote
I am not familiar with any of Rav Ovadyah's works. Thanks.
> since it isn't really borer
> (something like there is no "separate" mixture from which one is
> filtering out the grounds).
So Rav Ovadyah would permit loose leaf tea in a tea pot and strainer too
(assuming "cooking" issues resolved)?
> He also deals with other possible
> objections as well. Of course, those Ashkenazim that don't permit
> teabags would prohibit also coffee.
Fiona
Fiona
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
> Rav Shalom Massas in Kevod Chachamim Ateret Paz indicates that what Rav
> Ovadya Yosef was referring to in Yechaveh Daat II 44 re: black coffee
> was referring to a KLI SHENI and **not** a kli rishon.
Previously you stated: "However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT been
cooked: it is NOT permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't do
this: see: Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba
Shaul). "
So you at have a least modified your previous blanket statement, and admit
that Sephardim do permit black coffee (even if not in a kli rishon). We are
making progress here. Now all you have to do is come to terms with the
reality that the Ben Ish Hai permits even in a kli rishon. Although nobody
does this today, were people to do this they would have on what to rely.
Fact is virtually everyone who makes botz on shabbat makes it in a kli
sheni.
> See also Mishpetei
> Uzziel X Mahadura Tinyana 44 who also forbids (Sefardim !) to pour hot
> water over black (Turkish) coffee on shabbat.
Nu? So, if he does (and I haven't seen this quote) he merely upgrades the
Ben Ish Hai's recommendation (showing respect to the Rema) to an prohibition
and follows the Rema's opinion. But he *does* permit Turkish coffee on
shabbat.
Fiona
SARAYALE
>From: bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>Date: 7/16/2004 10:59 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Sigh ....
Double sigh.
>See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted ONLY
>for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose engenders
>the category of amira l'akum
Another innovation of Feinstein.
One cannot make a cogent argument to support this flight of intellectual fancy.
Where is the goy?
We use ovens and crock pots to cook all Friday night and eat the hamin the next
day. Mammash bishul occurs all Friday night and we eat the result.
How is a coffee maker different? Because the machine is set so as to turn on
on Shabbat? If that is the reason, make a cogent case le'osro. But then
lights are also assur. Cannot have it both ways.
While you cite generously, you never really frame the issue under consideration
properly, and the plethora of cites generally relate to peripheral issues.
>You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot. You did
>NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat.
I do all the time in Syrian synagogues in the US.
Want to demonstrate we are "wrong" fine. Do it! With genuine sources binding
on all Israel.
We Sepharadim who have not yet wholesale iimitated the black hats in every
manner still retain some semblence of sanity in Judaism.
Ronnie
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
>
>> Rav Shalom Massas in Kevod Chachamim Ateret Paz indicates that what Rav
>> Ovadya Yosef was referring to in Yechaveh Daat II 44 re: black coffee
>> was referring to a KLI SHENI and **not** a kli rishon.
>
> Previously you stated: "However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT been
> cooked: it is NOT permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't do
> this: see: Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba
> Shaul). "
By definition, Turkish coffee has been roasted, not boiled (beforehand).
Therefore, if one pours boiling water over it, the act is considered
BISHUL ACHAR AFIYA and is prohibited.
Even Sefardim who permit this in a Kli Sheni (boiling water poured from
kettle to cup A, and then from cup A to cup B; the KLI SHENI being cup B)
do **NOT** permit pouring boiling water into cup A where Turkish coffee
(uncooked) has been placed.
>
> So you at have a least modified your previous blanket statement, and admit
> that Sephardim do permit black coffee (even if not in a kli rishon). We are
> making progress here. Now all you have to do is come to terms with the
> reality that the Ben Ish Hai permits even in a kli rishon. Although nobody
I have a copy of the Ben Ish Hai (from Baghdad, late 19th century). He is
referring to a Kli Sheni.
When you get smicha, we'll discuss this further.
> does this today, were people to do this they would have on what to rely.
> Fact is virtually everyone who makes botz on shabbat makes it in a kli
> sheni.
>
Which, for Sefardim, is permissible (but not for Ashkenazim).
>> See also Mishpetei
>> Uzziel X Mahadura Tinyana 44 who also forbids (Sefardim !) to pour hot
>> water over black (Turkish) coffee on shabbat.
>
> Nu? So, if he does (and I haven't seen this quote) he merely upgrades the
> Ben Ish Hai's recommendation (showing respect to the Rema) to an prohibition
> and follows the Rema's opinion. But he *does* permit Turkish coffee on
> shabbat.
Only in a Kli Sheni, NEVER in a KLI RISHON.
Which is precisely what I wrote.
Josh
>
>
> Fiona
>
>
SARAYALE
>Date: 7/16/2004 12:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Yes. According to Rambam and Chazal you are right; according to the "Hadash
>'asur min hatorah" crowd you are in danger of losing your next gilgul if you
>make coffee.
This is precisely why this crowd MUST believe in gilgul (a Hindu idea, just
like the red string on the wrist).
One cannot ppossibly study even one massekheth with all the requisitie pilpul
in one lifetime.
>And this is a huge problem today: people turning "gut feelings" into halachah
>
>lema`aseh (in their own minds).
If people had genuine erudition instead of effective illiteracy this would not
be a prboblem.
There is a very good reason one studies all of the halakha between ages 10-15
(and be'al pe, BTW) in the Maimonidean tradition.
>"what is not forbidden is permitted".
Talmud diBhne Ma'arava: ("Yersushalmi" in yeshivish parlance)
It is just as wrong to declare th epermitted assur as it is the prohibited
muttar.
>> coffeemaker-on-timer issue, keilim performing work for Jews on Shabbos when
>> set before Shabbos.
>
>Which is completely permitted, see hil' shabbat 3:1.
Amen veamen.
Ronnie
Harry Weiss
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cd71ht$ful$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
> >
> > "Sheldon Ackerman" <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote
> > > "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote
> > >
> > > > If your new coffee maker has any sort of filter or strainer in it that
> > > > stops the coffee grounds coming out into your cup, it is assur because
> > > > of borer (separation).
> > >
> > > Fiona, I read the question as being why are you not permitted to set a
> > > timer BEFORE shabbos, just like you set the timer to turn the lights on.
> > > Realize that there is an assumption being made here that it is not
> > > permitted.
> >
> > Yes, I did realise that and perhaps I should have mentioned it, but I felt
> > the issue of borer is more pertinent as I have yet to hear of any coffee
> > machine (filter, percolator, espresso, etc.) that doesn't contain a
> strainer
> > of some sort to keep the grounds and liquid separate. That strainer makes
> > coffee machines assur even if you switch them on before shabbat for that
> all
> > important java-cup after your friday night seudah, so regardless of all
> > other potential leniencies borer is *the* fundamental show-stopper for
> > coffee machines on shabbat.
> >
> > If you want fresh coffee on shabbat it's botz or nowt (as say round here),
> > and as I said before not everyone permits even botz.
> >
> >
> Fiona,
> A question. What you are saying seems to make sense. However what about tea?
> Most people drink tea that is either strained or using a tea bag.
> Wouldn't the same principle apply?
> I have yet to be in a shomer home on Shabbat where tea was not served.
Some people only use tea essence. Others allow 2nd (Rabbi Solevitchik) or
3rd degree cup. But all require one to remove the tea bag with a spoon so
that it does not totally filter everything.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Dr. Shlomo Argamon (Engelson)
"Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
>
> > Rav Shalom Massas in Kevod Chachamim Ateret Paz indicates that what Rav
> > Ovadya Yosef was referring to in Yechaveh Daat II 44 re: black coffee
> > was referring to a KLI SHENI and **not** a kli rishon.
>
> Previously you stated: "However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT been
> cooked: it is NOT permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't do
> this: see: Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba
> Shaul). "
>
> So you at have a least modified your previous blanket statement, and admit
> that Sephardim do permit black coffee (even if not in a kli rishon). We are
> making progress here. Now all you have to do is come to terms with the
> reality that the Ben Ish Hai permits even in a kli rishon. Although nobody
> does this today, were people to do this they would have on what to rely.
> Fact is virtually everyone who makes botz on shabbat makes it in a kli
> sheni.
And I will add to what I wrote earlier that Rav Ovadya permits only
with a keli sheni (or irui keli rishon, IIRC).
BTW, while I don't know what he says about a tea pot with loose tea
(and a built-in strainer), I can see a reason to be more machmir in
such a case than in the case of coffee, as you have a mixture of tea
and leaves separate from anything else in the pot, and then you pour
and strain out the leaves. But with the coffee and filter, there
really is no separate "coffee mixture", basically you pour water
through a "filter-plus-ground-coffee" mechanism and out comes coffee.
-Shlomo-
Fiona
<bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in
> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
> >
> >> Rav Shalom Massas in Kevod Chachamim Ateret Paz indicates that what Rav
> >> Ovadya Yosef was referring to in Yechaveh Daat II 44 re: black coffee
> >> was referring to a KLI SHENI and **not** a kli rishon.
> >
> > Previously you stated: "However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT
been
> > cooked: it is NOT permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't
do
> > this: see: Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba
> > Shaul). "
>
>
> By definition, Turkish coffee has been roasted, not boiled (beforehand).
> Therefore, if one pours boiling water over it, the act is considered
> BISHUL ACHAR AFIYA and is prohibited.
>
> Even Sefardim who permit this in a Kli Sheni (boiling water poured from
> kettle to cup A, and then from cup A to cup B; the KLI SHENI being cup B)
Your cup B is a kli shelishi.
> do **NOT** permit pouring boiling water into cup A where Turkish coffee
> (uncooked) has been placed.
Ben Ish Hai [y2 Bo, 8]: "This practice [adding coffee to a kli rishon] can
be justified, but it is better to add it after having poured it from the pot
[kli rishon] into the cups [kli sheni], in order to satisfy all opinions."
> > So you at have a least modified your previous blanket statement, and
admit
> > that Sephardim do permit black coffee (even if not in a kli rishon). We
are
> > making progress here. Now all you have to do is come to terms with the
> > reality that the Ben Ish Hai permits even in a kli rishon. Although
nobody
>
>
> I have a copy of the Ben Ish Hai (from Baghdad, late 19th century). He is
> referring to a Kli Sheni.
Then read more carefully:
Ben Ish Hai [y2 Bo, 8]: Yesh osim mashqeh kahwa [coffee in Arabic] me'erebh
shabbath umanihin al haur kdei lishototho baboqer b'yom shabbath. Akh ein
manihim b'thokh hakli [he is clearly talking about a kli rishon] shemanihin
otho al haur "bean" shel kahwa [yes, he uses the English word bean] harbeh
kefi mah shetzarikh, kdei shelo yiheh bazeh ta'am meriruth, lekhakh manihim
"bean" me'at, ubh'boker be'eth sheshotheh mashqeh zeh mosifin alaw "bean"
zeh. **wYesh lahem al mah sheyismokho** [my emphasis]. Akh gam bazeh tobh
sheyasimu b'shabbath eth h"bean" ahar sheyariqu hamashqeh hanizkar b'thokh
hakos. Kdei latzeth y'dei hobhath sh'ar dei'oth. Wa'od, mipnei ki hakahwa hi
qeluyah, we'yesh lahush welomar yesh bishul ahar qeliyah. [then some
citations].
Translation: Some people make coffe before shabbat and keep it on the fire
to drink on shabbat morning. But they do not put as much coffee bean in the
pot [kli rishon al ha'eash] as they normally would so that it does not taste
to bitter, but they add more coffee grounds [to the pot] in the morning
before drinking it. And they have on what to rely. Nevertheless it is better
if they add the coffee after pouring the liquid into the cups, in order to
satisfy all opinions. [Those opinions being] because coffee is roasted and
some say there is bishul ahar qeliyah (cooking after roasting). [He cites
the Hatam Sofer].
So the Ben Ish Hai clearly and explicitly permits adding coffee "bean"
(grounds) to a kli rishon, but suggests it is better to add it to a kli
sheni in deferrence to those who claim yesh bishul ahar qeliyah. He in no
way assurs a kli rishon, and seems to only advise using a kli sheni as an
easy option to avoid confrontation with those that hold yesh bishul ahar
qeliyah.
> When you get smicha, we'll discuss this further.
True, I don't have semiha, but my rav does (yadin yadin) and I am repeating
what he has taught.
> > does this today, were people to do this they would have on what to rely.
> > Fact is virtually everyone who makes botz on shabbat makes it in a kli
> > sheni.
>
> Which, for Sefardim, is permissible (but not for Ashkenazim).
Kli sheni, not kli shelishi as you describe above.
> >> See also Mishpetei
> >> Uzziel X Mahadura Tinyana 44 who also forbids (Sefardim !) to pour hot
> >> water over black (Turkish) coffee on shabbat.
> >
> > Nu? So, if he does (and I haven't seen this quote) he merely upgrades
the
> > Ben Ish Hai's recommendation (showing respect to the Rema) to an
prohibition
> > and follows the Rema's opinion. But he *does* permit Turkish coffee on
> > shabbat.
>
> Only in a Kli Sheni, NEVER in a KLI RISHON.
NO JOSH, he permits (but discourages) in a kli rishon - Ben Ish Hai [y2 Bo,
8]: "This practice [adding coffee to a kli rishon] can be justified, but it
is better to add it after having poured it from the pot [kli rishon] into
the cups, in order to satisfy all opinions."
> Which is precisely what I wrote.
No you forbade black coffee completely even for Sephardim, see you first
response above and you were wrong.
Fiona
Harry Weiss
> In article <blLJc.4292$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Craig Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
> > news:cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> >> In article <slrncfds8a....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
> > <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
> >> > Hey, all. I had a question that I know the basic answer to, but don't
> >> > know why the answer is that way.
> >> >
> >> > I know that some authorities say you can set a VCR to record a TV show
> >> > on Shabbat, since you can't watch it then (yeah, I know, some say you
> >> > can't, too; work with me here). I was wondering, what's wrong with
> >> > setting up a coffee maker to make coffee on Shabbat? If you set a timer
> >> > to have it start, and you don't return the brewed coffee to the
> >> > burner/warmer on the maker, then what prohibition is being violated?
> >> > I've asked a few people, and they all have the same answer as me; we
> >> > know in our guts it's prohibited, we just don't know why.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> IRUI (pouring) from a KLI RISHON (kettle that was on the fire) "cooks"
> >> (kdei klipa) [thin crust]. The halacha is that there is no BISHUL ACHAR
> >> BISHUL (cooking a solid cooked food that has already been cooked) on
> > shabbat
> >> but there is (according to the YEREIM and other rishonim) Bishul achar
> > afiya
> >> (cooking after a food item was baked) and this is the halacha (Rema in
> > Orach
> >>
> >> As far as instant coffee is concerned, one can pour hot water into cup A,
> >> and then from cup A pour water into cup B,and then place instant coffee
> >> into cup B.
> >>
> >> However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT been cooked: it is NOT
> >> permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't do this: see:
> >> Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba Shaul).
> >
> >
> > We are not talking about a Jew making cofee. We're talking about a keili
> > making coffee. Keilim owned by a Jew are not required to remain inactive
> > over Shabbos. The Jew takes no active part in the whole process except
> > pouring the coffee. The coffeemaker was set before Shabbos.
> Sigh ....
> See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted ONLY
> for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose engenders
> the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an activity forbidden
> to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving pleasure) from the
> activity is prohibited. Thus,if a gentile prepared a cup of coffee or
> tea on shabbat, the Jew is prohibited from drinking the beverage since
> it was made on shabbat. See: TUR Orach Chayim 325 and Beit Yosef there
Unless it was nto made for Jews. If one stays in a non Jewish hotel and
they have cofee every morning, one is allowed to drink their coffee on
Shabbat.
> for Rabbenu Tam and RASHBA,; and Hagaoht Maimoniyot on Rambam Hilchot
> Shabbat Ch.6 mentioning how the RAAVYA would have Jews who ate bread
> baked by gentiles on shabbat publicly whipped. See also Tshvot haRASHBA as
> brought in Beit Yosef TUR OC 253 Rema in OC 252:5 on ivsha milta (people
> would *think* the coffee was actually cooked on shabbat) the prohibition
> being "uvda d'chol".
> >
> > I have seen coffee made on timer on Shabbos, but only in very modern
> > communities. Enough people have told me not to that I don't, but like Tim,
> You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot. You did
> NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat. [how right the Rema
> was in OC 252:5!!!]
>
> > I never got a satisfactory answer. I've spoken with people (rabbis, but not
> > my rav) who say it should be completely mutar, yet we just don't do it. But
> Nonsence.
> > the fact of the matter is that plenty of keilim perform work for Jews on
> > Shabbos, when set ahead of time. Josh, your answer addresses the issue of a
> You conflated a number of issues.
> > Jew performing the melacha of bishul. It doesn't address the
> > coffeemaker-on-timer issue, keilim performing work for Jews on Shabbos when
> > set before Shabbos.
> >
> Wrong !
> Josh
> > Craig Winchell
> > GAN EDEN Wines
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Josh
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for any help here,
> >> > Tim
> >> >
> >> > P.S. I know you can make instant if you've got a supply of hot water; we
> >> > don't have one of those urns, though, but we do have a new fangled
> >> > coffee maker that you can set 24 hours in advance to start....
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Timothy A. Meushaw
> >> > meu...@pobox.com
> >
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Joel N. Shurkin
snip
>
>That's what I wanna know! ;-)
As Craig eloquently outlined, so far the
>answers have been against
making coffee directly on Shabbat, but I'm
>still confused as to why a
timer couldn't do it for you if everything
>were set up in advance
(grounds put in, water put in, carafe/cup put in
>place, timer set), when
timers can be used to control lights, VCRs, etc.
>Unless the cooking laws
are more strict than the laws for other mechanical
>devices, which is
always a possibiilty.
I have an Italian coffee maker that grinds the
beans and then makes the coffee. You set the timer (I do it ever evening)
and at the right time the machine grinds the beans, snaps the filter
over the pot and boils the water. You get freshly ground coffee
immediately. Once you press the button, you do nothing. You just come down to the
kitchen and there's coffee. You actually do nothing in the morning but
drink it.
j
>
>Tim
>
>--
>Timothy A.
Meushaw
>meu...@pobox.com
>.
>
--
Joel N. Shurkin
Baltimore Jewish
Times
--------------------------
Journalism is the last refuge of the vaguely talented.تتتتت
---Walter Lippmann
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in
>> "Fiona" <fi...@intxtdoc.nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote
>> >
>> >> Rav Shalom Massas in Kevod Chachamim Ateret Paz indicates that what Rav
>> >> Ovadya Yosef was referring to in Yechaveh Daat II 44 re: black coffee
>> >> was referring to a KLI SHENI and **not** a kli rishon.
>> >
>> > Previously you stated: "However, black (Turkish) coffee which has NOT
> been
>> > cooked: it is NOT permissible to use on shabbat. [Even Sefardim don't
> do
>> > this: see: Kevod Chachamim Ateret by Harav Mashash and Rav Ben Zion Abba
>> > Shaul). "
>>
>>
>> By definition, Turkish coffee has been roasted, not boiled (beforehand).
>> Therefore, if one pours boiling water over it, the act is considered
>> BISHUL ACHAR AFIYA and is prohibited.
>>
>> Even Sefardim who permit this in a Kli Sheni (boiling water poured from
>> kettle to cup A, and then from cup A to cup B; the KLI SHENI being cup B)
>
> Your cup B is a kli shelishi.
No, our cup B is a Kli Sheni since even Sefardim rule that IRUI (pouring)
from a kli rishon = kli rishon.
>
>> do **NOT** permit pouring boiling water into cup A where Turkish coffee
>> (uncooked) has been placed.
>
> Ben Ish Hai [y2 Bo, 8]: "This practice [adding coffee to a kli rishon] can
> be justified, but it is better to add it after having poured it from the pot
> [kli rishon] into the cups [kli sheni], in order to satisfy all opinions."
>
If you understand the *nussach* (e.g. like the language used by the
Mechaber of the Shulchan Aruch) you'd understand that when he mentions
the more stringent opinion after a first more lenient opinion, the more
stringent opinion is the way he ultimately rules.
Precisely, and that's the way he rules l'halacha !!!!! That's what
"it is better" means in legal parlance.
No, he mentions the lenient opinion but when he then mentions the second
more stringent opinion is the way he ultimately rules. BTW Rav Ovadia Yosef
wrote a fascinating monograph on the rules used by Poskim (including
the Mechaber of the Shulchan Aruch). For example, the term "v'yesh
omrim" has a very specific legal meaning.
>> Which is precisely what I wrote.
>
> No you forbade black coffee completely even for Sephardim, see you first
> response above and you were wrong.
>
Read carefully what I wrote.
Josh
>
> Fiona
>
>
Joel N. Shurkin
>> Inside the basket,
there is water and coffe grounds. Outside the basket
>> there is
cofee.
>
>Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog,
it's
>too dark to read. (With apologies to Mark Twain)
You better
apologize to Groucho Marx. He said it.
j
>
>Moshe Schorr
>It is a
tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>Asher N <compg...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> Inside the basket, there is water and coffe grounds. Outside
>>> the basket there is cofee.
>>
>>Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog,
>>it's too dark to read. (With apologies to Mark Twain)
>
> You better apologize to Groucho Marx. He said it.
And you better apologize to Asher N. He wasn't the fellow who
repeated the joke. It was I.
Yisroel Markov
said:
>>Subject: Re: Coffee on Shabbat
>>From: bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>>Date: 7/16/2004 10:59 AM Eastern Standard Time
>
>>Sigh ....
>
>Double sigh.
>
>>See Iggrot Moshe OC IV 60 re: timers on shabbat. They are permitted ONLY
>>for turning lights on or off. Use of them for any other purpose engenders
>>the category of amira l'akum
>
>Another innovation of Feinstein.
>
>One cannot make a cogent argument to support this flight of intellectual fancy.
>Where is the goy?
I'd like to know that, too. (I'm willing to assume that R' Feinstein
had a reason. Comparison, perhaps?)
>We use ovens and crock pots to cook all Friday night and eat the hamin the next
>day. Mammash bishul occurs all Friday night and we eat the result.
There is no requirement that the hamin be at least somewhat cooked
before Shabbat?
[snip]
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>> [ Moderator's Comment: My oh my, moderators even sleep during the night.
>> instead of staying up waiting for posts to come. hw ]
>> In article <BuRJc.4469$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Craig
> Winchell/GAN EDEN Wines" <gan...@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >
>> > <bac...@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>> >> In article <91175f50.04071...@posting.google.com>,
>> > james...@iee.org (James Kilner) writes:
>> >> > bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote in message
>> > news:<cd7dt2$ouu$1...@falcon.steinthal.us>...
>> >> >> In article <slrncfds8a....@athens.meushaw.com>, Tim Meushaw
>> > <meu...@pobox.com> writes:
>> >> > If the coffee has been pre-cooked, then is there a problem with
>> >> > setting the machine up in advance?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, my reply to Craig's post.
>> >
>> > BS"D
>> >
>> > Which never showed up on my server, Josh.
>>
>>
>> It's ONLY been a few hours since I posted it. I guess the moderators
>> haven't yet "approved" it. Maybe in a few more hours or days, the post
>> will get "approved" and you'll see my very detailed answer.
>>
>> Josh
>>
>
> I seem to remember that at one time Orthodox would always qualify their
> comments to this or a similar newsgroup that you should not go on what the
> poster had said but consult your local Orthodox rabbi. Whatever happened to
> that injunction?
Because I am one.
Josh
>
> Nick
>
>
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>> Use of them for any other purpose engenders
>> the category of amira l'akum
>
>
> What does the Rabbi do with hil' shabbat 3:1 ?
>
I think that Rav Moshe Feinstein z"l who knew all of Shas and Poskim
by heart and understood what he was reading, knew what you *think* the
Rambam wrote.
>> Shabbat Ch.6 mentioning how the RAAVYA would have Jews who ate bread
>
> That is when he asked an *actual goy*. Not when he himself started
No. Even if the gentile made the (kosher) bread for himself on shabbat and
offered it to the Jew on shabbat.
> a mel'achah *before shabbat* which continued its action *on shabbat*, which
> Rambam specifically says is permitted, and the results of which are also
> permitted.
>
>> You saw kettles (with coffee made BEFORE shabbat) being kept hot. You did
>> NOT see timers being used to make coffee ON shabbat. [how right the Rema
>> was in OC 252:5!!!]
>
> WADR Josh, how could you possibly know what *Craig* saw?
Josh
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Wrong. "Amira l'akum" is permitted only VERY specific and extenuating
circumstances. Since you obviously don't believe me, email my original
post (all of it with references) to R. Gavriel Bechhofer.
Josh
Harry Weiss
> >> the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an activity forbidden
> >> to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving pleasure) from the
> >> activity is prohibited. Thus,if a gentile prepared a cup of coffee or
> >> tea on shabbat, the Jew is prohibited from drinking the beverage since
> >> it was made on shabbat. See: TUR Orach Chayim 325 and Beit Yosef there
> >
> > Unless it was nto made for Jews. If one stays in a non Jewish hotel and
> > they have cofee every morning, one is allowed to drink their coffee on
> > Shabbat.
> Wrong. "Amira l'akum" is permitted only VERY specific and extenuating
> circumstances. Since you obviously don't believe me, email my original
> post (all of it with references) to R. Gavriel Bechhofer.
> Josh
When it applied to me I check with a Posek I rely on and got the answer I gave above.
I don't second guess when I get a psak. Especially not to a Usenet Psak. The only
one qualified to give a psak on SCJM is Ian and only for those who follow Minhag
Creedmoor
> > > show is offensive to religious Jews, but like so many people
today, she
> > > doesn't care who she offends or hurts. She must be aware that the
Jews
> > > are a people with a religion/philosophy/belief system (or whatever
you
James Kilner
No offence meant, but I'm an infrequent poster on this NG and you
claiming that you are an Orthodox Rabbi means nothing to me. Even if
you are an Orthodox Rabbi, I have no idea of your level of learning or
your general machmir/mekel-ness. You may be a Hasid or a Lubavitch
and I wouldn't generally go to them anyway for my questions.
What I have noticed from your posts is that you give the ruling which
it seems you would apply to yourself which isn't necessarily the same
ruling that a Rabbi who knew the person asking the question might give
to them.
Fiona
"Harry Weiss" <hjw...@panix.com> wrote
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> > >> the category of amira l'akum (asking a gentile to do an activity
forbidden
> > >> to a Jew on shabbat) and thus *hana'ah* (deriving pleasure) from the
> > >> activity is prohibited. Thus,if a gentile prepared a cup of coffee or
> > >> tea on shabbat, the Jew is prohibited from drinking the beverage
since
> > >> it was made on shabbat. See: TUR Orach Chayim 325 and Beit Yosef
there
> > >
> > > Unless it was nto made for Jews. If one stays in a non Jewish hotel
and
> > > they have cofee every morning, one is allowed to drink their coffee on
> > > Shabbat.
>
> > Wrong. "Amira l'akum" is permitted only VERY specific and extenuating
> > circumstances. Since you obviously don't believe me, email my original
> > post (all of it with references) to R. Gavriel Bechhofer.
>
> When it applied to me I check with a Posek I rely on and got the answer I
gave above.
> I don't second guess when I get a psak. Especially not to a Usenet Psak.
The only
> one qualified to give a psak on SCJM is Ian and only for those who follow
Minhag
> Creedmoor
Harry, I too have been given the same psak for the scenario you state. Josh
has demanded an apology from me for calling him Josh Almighty, but how can
he expect such a thing when he habitually tells everyone he is right and
everyone else is wrong, and when he consistently assurs what our local
poskim permit?
Fiona
SARAYALE
>> Unless it was nto made for Jews. If one stays in a non Jewish hotel and
>> they have cofee every morning, one is allowed to drink their coffee on
>> Shabbat.
>Wrong. "Amira l'akum" is permitted only VERY specific and extenuating
>circumstances.
This is NOT an instance of amira laggoy (can we please cite to the uncensored
and original text of the Talmud?).
This is governed by whether the goy in making the coffee could be said to have
included the Jewish guests.
It is a different analysis.
Ronnie
SARAYALE
>I think that Rav Moshe Feinstein z"l who knew all of Shas and Poskim
>by heart and understood what he was reading, knew what you *think* the
>Rambam wrote.
This is argument by authoritas. Feinstein misconstrues Maimonides' code left
and right. He misundertsands Talmud as interpreted by Maimonidean tradition.
Repeatedly.
You cannot have it both ways. You want the yeshiva world and its Polish
idiosyncracies to be Judaism. Then you want to force Maimonides and his
predecessors to fit into those pigeonholes and the agenda of Feinstein?
Argue the law, not the "authority" of your beloved -- and semi-literate --
gedolim.
DEMONSTRATE on the TEXT how Maimonides supports Feinstein's conclusion.
Ronnie
Ron Aaron
>> What does the Rabbi do with hil' shabbat 3:1 ?
>
> I think that Rav Moshe Feinstein z"l who knew all of Shas and Poskim
> by heart and understood what he was reading, knew what you *think* the
> Rambam wrote.
No doubt, no doubt. And yet we have him issuing heterim to drink Halav `akum.
Maybe he did understand Rambam, and didn't care?
You seem to miss a critical piece of information: I (and others like me) take
the Rambam's MT not as "one of the sources", but as halachah lema`aseh -- and
we take his words seriously, as they are written - not as others would like
them to be. Perhaps one day you will realize that I am not impressed with all
the aHaronim you trot out as "sources" -- and will argue based upon what is
written by Rambam or the Sha"s.
To paraphrase your statement from my POV: "I think the Rambam z"l, who knew
all of Bavli, Yerushalmi, Sifre, Sifri etc, etc, by heart -- knew and
understood what he was writing, and that he stated what he meant."
>> That is when he asked an *actual goy*. Not when he himself started
>
> No. Even if the gentile made the (kosher) bread for himself on shabbat and
> offered it to the Jew on shabbat.
Whatever -- that has nothing to do with a machine. A machine is not (yet)
a goy. Repeatedly stating it as if it were true doesn't make it true.
Sheldon Ackerman
news:cdjh08$c1i$1...@falcon.steinthal.us:
>
> To paraphrase your statement from my POV: "I think the Rambam z"l, who
> knew all of Bavli, Yerushalmi, Sifre, Sifri etc, etc, by heart -- knew
> and understood what he was writing, and that he stated what he meant."
>
I think the same can be said about R' Moshe. In addition it can probably be
said that he also knew all of the Rambam by heart. He also knew and
understood what he was writing and he stated what he meant. If there is any
problem, it is that WE don't understand what he wrote or meant.
--
(Drop the first S for Emailing)
(s)acke...@dorsai.org
SARAYALE
>Date: 7/20/2004 6:17 PM Eastern Standard Time
>I think the same can be said about R' Moshe. In addition it can probably be
>said that he also knew all of the Rambam by heart.
It can be said about lots of people. Doesn't mean they understand it or choose
to be faithful to it.
> If there is any
>problem, it is that WE don't understand what he wrote or meant.
I understand Feinstein's MO very well.
He is innovating here. Be honest and stop the delusional hero worship. This
is the Tora, not a comic book.
Ronnie
Sheldon Ackerman
news:20040720230308...@mb-m15.aol.com:
I think you should step back and look into a mirror once in a while. You
sound exactly like Josh with one exception. You believe that everything you
know is the truth.
Nick
news:20040720080515...@mb-m28.aol.com...
Can I suggest that when referring to a non-Jew we do so in their own terms
or as a gentile. I don't think that I would like to be referred to as a
"Yid" or on a Christian newsgroup.
Nick
Nick
"Henry Goodman" <henry....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:cdc878$4pq$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
>
>
>
>
> "Nick" <tulse0...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cd92f2$n3j$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> >
> > And someone people might say that meanwhile there are 100,000 people
> dying
> > in Sudan!
> >
> The present tragic situation in Sudan is a vivid demonstration of the
> terrrible consequences of a territorial dispute between Arabs and a
> weaker people. It is a clear proof of the critical necessity for
> Israel to be strong to be able to defend itself against such enemies.
>
It is a terribly complicated civil war.
"The situation in the western Darfur region of Sudan has
been labelled the worst humanitarian crisis in the world
today. A conflict between rebel forces on the one side,
and the Sudanese Government and the governmentbacked
Janjaweed militia on the other, has left between
10,000 and 30,000 people dead. An estimated 1.3
million civilians have been displaced from their homes.
Aid agencies and governments warn of the potential for
a humanitarian catastrophe brought on by famine and
disease, unless urgent action is taken to improve the
security of the civilian population and to provide food
and shelter."
from the www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp2004/rp04-051.pdf from the
House of Commons Research Paper "Sudan: Conflict in Dafur".
See also Yasmin Alibhai-Brown in "The Independent"
argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/yasmin_alibhai_brown/story.jsp
?story=531322
"There is silence about Sudan, because the perpetrators are not Islamophobic
westerners but Arab Muslims
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
14 June 2004
"An 18-year-old girl in the Sudanese region of Darfur had a knife stuck into
her vagina by an assailant who said, while gloating: "You get this because
you are black." Militiamen arrived at a village mosque in the same region
and defecated on Korans before executing the imam and his muezzin. More than
30,000 civilians have been murdered in the past year. A million have been
forced to flee into neighbouring countries in what the United Nations
describes as the world's worst humanitarian disaster."
Nick
London, UK
Eliyahu Rooff
a message than a particular word or two. I'd much rather see
someone referring to me as "that nice Yid who lives next door" than
"one of those evil Jews," even though the latter used the "correct"
name for us. (And then, there's my friend who signs his e-mail as
"Sid the Yid.")
Eliyahu
ahaleva
>
> I think you should step back and look into a mirror once in a while. You
> sound exactly like Josh with one exception. You believe that everything you
> know is the truth.
I think you should stop promoting the mindset of AZ and a Papist-type
intellectual hierarchy of infallible charismatic leaders.
Everybody who feels they "know" something thinks that it is true.
Including you, or you would not have tried to rebuke me. (If your
assumptions are false, I need no such rebuke).
Now why is your truth superior to mine? Please state the reason, and
no waffling or misdirection.
You do not like the fact that I reject your argument to "authoritas."
I think authoritas of gedolim is non-Jewish thinking. I think
authority of the law is Jewish thinking. Maimonides said the same.
I do not need to doubt myself when I see a discussion of the law about
shevitat kelim, as described in the first chapter of Massekhth
Shabbath, which every child knows is one of the classic Bet Hillel
positions, and somebody tries to introduce the red herring of "amira
laggoy" which has ZERO relevance.
Yes, that statement is true. Yes I know it. I know it as surely as
you "know" that Feinstein is infallible, and because you heard he knew
X, Y and Z by heart, he must be on track anytime he interprets
Maimonides and we must be missing something if the text simply does
not support his position, wherein such something is written no place.
(ha'iqar haser min hassefer).
We have a fundamentally different notion of Tora and Judaism. Mine is
the very tradition of Maimonides, the author of the work in question.
I should be able to interpret the MT using Maimonidean literary
canons, even if that breaks some of your precious taboos.
I am competent to see when Feinstein intentionally misconstrues and
selectively quotes Maimonides to promote his own agenda of where the
law should come out. He does it all the time. See, e.g., his and cf.
R. Uzziel's teshubhoth on abortion. Both quote the MT as a primary
source Each ends with a different conclusion as to what is meant.
Feinstein's twisting of the text is particularly obvious, and R.
Uzziel caught him red-handed, as I recall.
Ronnie
Sheldon Ackerman
news:865eb4a4.04072...@posting.google.com:
> Sheldon Ackerman <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote in message
> news:<Xns952D55728CEDC...@129.250.170.83>...
>>
>> I think you should step back and look into a mirror once in a while.
>> You sound exactly like Josh with one exception. You believe that
>> everything you know is the truth.
>
> I think you should stop promoting the mindset of AZ and a Papist-type
> intellectual hierarchy of infallible charismatic leaders.
I will admit you must be smarter than I. I have at this moment no idea who
or what AZ is.
>
> Everybody who feels they "know" something thinks that it is true.
> Including you, or you would not have tried to rebuke me. (If your
> assumptions are false, I need no such rebuke).
>
> Now why is your truth superior to mine? Please state the reason, and
> no waffling or misdirection.
My truth is not superior to yours. That is why I don't "knock" individuals
who have different beliefs than mine.
>
> You do not like the fact that I reject your argument to "authoritas."
> I think authoritas of gedolim is non-Jewish thinking. I think
> authority of the law is Jewish thinking. Maimonides said the same.
You can reject what people say without denigrating those people.Or perhaps
you can't. That is the only thing I find upsetting about many of your
posts.
>
> I do not need to doubt myself when I see a discussion of the law about
> shevitat kelim, as described in the first chapter of Massekhth
> Shabbath, which every child knows is one of the classic Bet Hillel
> positions, and somebody tries to introduce the red herring of "amira
> laggoy" which has ZERO relevance.
> Yes, that statement is true. Yes I know it. I know it as surely as
> you "know" that Feinstein is infallible, and because you heard he knew
> X, Y and Z by heart, he must be on track anytime he interprets
> Maimonides and we must be missing something if the text simply does
> not support his position, wherein such something is written no place.
> (ha'iqar haser min hassefer).
>
> We have a fundamentally different notion of Tora and Judaism. Mine is
> the very tradition of Maimonides, the author of the work in question.
> I should be able to interpret the MT using Maimonidean literary
> canons, even if that breaks some of your precious taboos.
That is an assumption on your part.
Don Levey
> Sheldon Ackerman <sack...@dorsai.org> wrote in message news:<Xns952D55728CEDC...@129.250.170.83>...
> >
> > I think you should step back and look into a mirror once in a while. You
> > sound exactly like Josh with one exception. You believe that everything you
> > know is the truth.
>
> I think you should stop promoting the mindset of AZ and a Papist-type
> intellectual hierarchy of infallible charismatic leaders.
>
...
>
> We have a fundamentally different notion of Tora and Judaism. Mine is
> the very tradition of Maimonides, the author of the work in question.
> I should be able to interpret the MT using Maimonidean literary
> canons, even if that breaks some of your precious taboos.
Let me see if I've got this straight.
First, you condemn Cheldon (et al) for using the logical fallacy of
Appeal to Authority. You then procede to appeal to the authority of
Maimonides. What have I missed?
--
Don Levey $> cd /pub
Framingham, MA $> more beer
NOTE: email server uses spam filters.
p_al...@hotmail.com
Who needs OCR wars when we have Rambamistim vs [what do we call the other side]?
Sheldon Ackerman
Hopefully I did not come across insinuating that I find anything wrong with
any of Josh's messages in this thread, or with Josh himself. However, I
think Ronnie (excuse me if I have the name wrong) was implying that Josh is
delusional, and that the Orthodox or Yeshiva World has no idea how to
learn, and that Rav Moshe has the Rambam all wrong. To me someone who can
make all these claims sounds himself quite delusional.
Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote in
news:m3658ha...@dauphin.the-leveys.us:
--
Joel N. Shurkin
>
I apologize to everyone for everything at any time.
j
Eliyahu Rooff
"Joel N. Shurkin" <jo...@nasw.org> wrote in message
news:ofDLc.24531$gt1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> >"Joel N. Shurkin" <jo...@nasw.org> writes:
> >>>Asher N
> <compg...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>>> Inside the basket, there is water and coffe
> grounds. Outside
> >>>> the basket there is cofee.
> >>>
> >>>Outside of a
> dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog,
> >>>it's too dark to
> read. (With apologies to Mark Twain)
> >>
> >> You better apologize to
> Groucho Marx. He said it.
> >
> >And you better apologize to Asher N. He
> wasn't the fellow who
> >repeated the joke. It was I.
> >
> >Moshe Schorr
> >It
> is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of
> Breslov
> >.
> >
> I apologize to everyone for everything at any time.
>
> j
>
of SCJM. :-)
Eliyahu