Avigdor Lieberman, our realistic new Foreign Minister (Naomi Ragen)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
Friends,
When all the left-wing media gurus start condemning an Israeli leader, you
know that he is doing something right. Our new Foreign Minister, Avigdor
Lieberman, a blunt-talking, truth-sayer, has them up in arms. His biggest
"crime" so far, has been to say that Annapolis won't work; but he's still
committed to the Road Map.
Well, many of you don't know what that means, so let me simplify. The Road
Map was that agreement we signed with the Palestinians which said if you do
this, then we'll do that. A step by step plan to peace. For example, if you
stop terrorist attacks, incitement to murder, etc. then we will
reciprocate, leading to the establishment of an independent Palestinian
entity. Well, the Palestinians never did stop terror, so the "Roadmap"
didn't go anywhere. So they came up with Annapolis, which says no, the
Palestinians don't have to do anything. We'll give them whatever they want
upfront in a "comprehensive" agreement. Suicidal? The new American
president is firmly behind this, just as Mr. Lieberman is firmly against it.
As are all Israelis. If that is intransigent and war-mongering, than so be
it. We Jews are gullible. We want to believe that peace is possible even
among those who are building atom bombs with our address on them. But we
have a limit, which is why we elected Mr. Lieberman and his party. Below
Jeff Jacoby, as usual, gets it totally right.
Naomi Ragen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Israel, a voice of realism
by Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
April 5, 2009
http://www.jeffjacoby.com/5247/in-israel-a-voice-of-realism
Avigdor Lieberman, the new Israeli foreign minister
IF AVIGDOR LIEBERMAN'S first speech as Israel's new foreign minister did
nothing else, it certainly vexed the media.
The Associated Press called it a "scathing critique of Mideast peace
efforts" that had diplomats "cringing," while other reports said Lieberman
had "dropped a political bombshell," "sparked an uproar," "repudiated a key
accord," and "reinforced fears." The New York Times pronounced Lieberman's
remarks "blunt and belligerent," describing the foreign minister as a
"hawkish nationalist" who is "not known for diplomacy" and heads an
"ultranationalist" party that is "seen by many as racist." Headlines summed
up Lieberman's debut as an attack on peacemaking: "Lieberman dashes peace
hopes," "Israeli official hits peace efforts," "Lieberman dumps peace deal."
But the headlines were wrong, as anyone can ascertain by reading Lieberman's
short address. Far from disparaging peace, Israel's new foreign minister
called for pursuing it with the respect and realism it deserves. And far
from "dumping" agreements entered into by his predecessors, he explicitly
committed himself to upholding the Roadmap -- a step-by-step blueprint to a
"two-state solution" adopted by Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and the
international Quartet (the United States, the United Nations, Russia, and
the European Union) in 2003.
"I voted against the Roadmap," Lieberman acknowledged, but it was "approved
by the Cabinet and endorsed by the Security Council" and is therefore "a
binding resolution and it binds this government as well." However, he
insisted, it must be implemented "exactly as written" and "in full." The
Road Map imposes specific obligations that the Palestinians must meet prior
to achieving statehood -- above all, an unequivocal end to violence,
terrorism, and incitement against the Jewish state -- and Israel will not
agree to waive them in order to negotiate a final settlement.
If Lieberman is as good as his word -- and if he is backed up by Benjamin
Netanyahu, the new prime minister -- we may finally see an end to Israel's
fruitless attempts to buy peace with ever-more-desperate concessions and
retreats. Under Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, Israel surrendered the entire
Gaza Strip, released hundreds of terrorists from prison, expelled thousands
of Jews from their homes, and even offered to divide Jerusalem with the
Palestinian Authority. "But none of these far-reaching measures have brought
peace," said Lieberman. "To the contrary." The steeper the price Israel has
been willing to pay for peace, the more it has been repaid with violence:
suicide bombings, rocket attack s, kidnapped and murdered soldiers, and wars
with Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon.
It is time, Lieberman is saying, for Israel to stop genuflecting to a
feckless and counterproductive "peace process" and to return instead to the
pre-Oslo policy of deterrence. "The fact that we say the word 'peace' 20
times a day will not bring peace any closer," he noted. It only makes Israel
seem weak and irresolute, encouraging its enemies not to halt their
murderous jihad, but to redouble it. Sixteen years of appeasement have left
Israel more demonized and isolated than ever, the foreign minister observed.
And when was Israel most admired in the world? "After the victory of the Six
Day War," when no one doubted the Jewish state's audacity or resolve.
President Washington: "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual
means of preserving peace"
"If you want peace, prepare for war," Lieberman declared. That belief may
offend the smart set and leave diplomats "cringing," but Israel's new
foreign minister is scarcely the first to express it. "To be prepared for
war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace," affirmed
President George Washington in his first address to Congress in 1790. Nearly
two centuries later, Ronald Reagan told the world much the same thing.
"Peace is made by the fact of strength," said the leader who would go on to
win the Cold War. "Peace is lost when such strength disappears -- or, just
as bad, is seen by an adversary as disappearing."
Perhaps the world would more clearly understand the nature of Israel's
adversary if the media weren't forever fanning moral outrage at the
Mideast's only bulwark of freedom and democracy.
In recent weeks, the Palestinian Authority has warned Arabs that it is "high
treason" punishable by death to sell homes or property to Jews in Jerusalem;
shut down a Palestinian youth orchestra and arrested its founder because the
ensemble played for a group of elderly Israeli Holocaust survivors; and
celebrated the deadliest terrorist attack in Israel's history -- a PLO bus
hijacking that left 38 civilians dead -- with a TV special extolling the
massacre. On Thursday, after a P alestinian terrorist used an axe to murder
a 13-year-old Jewish boy, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades -- a wing of the
supposedly "moderate" Fatah party -- issued a statement claiming
responsibility.
There is no appeasing such hatred, and demonizing those who say so will not
change that fact. "If you want peace, prepare for war." How refreshing, at
last, to hear an Israeli leader say so.
(Jeff Jacoby is a columnist for The Boston Globe.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Susan
Yisroel Markov
>So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
schotness
sheldonlg
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net said:
>
>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>
> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
sacrifice?
Ugh! And we look down upon those Haitians that have chicken sacrifice
as part of their rituals!
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> If that was sarcasm I'm quite amused, if it wasn't I'm not.
To whom are you addressing this statement and to what post?
maxine
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), flav...@verizon.net said:
>
> >So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>
> Check outhttp://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>
maxine in ri
maxine
>
> >> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>
>
> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
> sacrifice?
>
> Ugh! And we look down upon those Haitians that have chicken sacrifice
> as part of their rituals!
>
animistic worshipers who sacrifice to be pagans worshiping loas. If
we do it, in the Temple, with purified priests, it will be sacrifices
unto God.
First, of course, is finding the perfect red bull (no, not that canned
stuff!)
maxine in ri
*A quote from Priscilla to John Alden in the early days of Plimouth
Plantation
schotness
campaign?"
a curse on gmail's web interface
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> in
<suSdnfnlz9n_C3LU...@giganews.com> wrote:
Yes.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
schotness
Susans post
sheldonlg
Which Susan, Cohen or Silberstein? And which post which said what? Hsd
you not snipped EVERYTHING, there wouldn't have been a question.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net said:
>>
>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>
>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>
> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
> sacrifice?
Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
Make me a reservation !
Josh
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
And I, Irving Bernstein of Bernstein Hardware, 29 Main Street where
you get the best deals in town (not like at Murray Levine the
ganiff, he should choke) hereby pledge $1000 ANONYMOUSLY !! :-) :-)
^^^^^^^^^^^
Josh
>
> Susan
Henry Goodman
news:75idnRiWnpM6VXLU...@giganews.com...
The problem is not that he snipped. He is using some peculiar mailer
(Gmail?) which by default doesn't include the previous posts in replies.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>>
>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to
>> animal sacrifice?
>
> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
Why not fried.
> Make me a reservation !
Why do you need a reservation?
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
Micha Berger
>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
> Why not fried.
Which qorban is fried?
>> Make me a reservation !
> Why do you need a reservation?
Well, a qorban Pesach does. You need to consciously join a group
assigned to the lamb.
The todah (thanksgiving) in particular doesn't. The thankful person
gives enough to feed numerous comers. As celebrants generally do.
But that's bread, not lamb.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 13th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 1 week and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Yesod sheb'Gevurah: To what extent is judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507 necessary for a good relationship?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>
>
> Which qorban is fried?
AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fried.
Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
>>> Make me a reservation !
>
>> Why do you need a reservation?
>
> Well, a qorban Pesach does. You need to consciously join a group
> assigned to the lamb.
True, but that's just a once-a-year occurance. Josh was talking
about "daily" sacrifices.
> The todah (thanksgiving) in particular doesn't. The thankful person
> gives enough to feed numerous comers. As celebrants generally do.
> But that's bread, not lamb.
Why do you say that? Can't _anyone_ (who is "fit") eat from the
sacrifice _itself_? Isn't that the meaning of "L'chol Adam"?
Fiona Abrahami
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>
>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>
>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>
> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the denominations)
> want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal sacrifice?
Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the name of
feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
"sacrifice"?
> Ugh! And we look down upon those Haitians that have chicken sacrifice as
> part of their rituals!
Do you, why?
Fiona
Tim Meushaw
Google Groups often has that problem. Yelling at a new poster is an
odd way of saying "hi."
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Tim Meushaw
> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>>
>>> Why not fried?
>>
>> Which qorban is fried?
>
> AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fried.
> Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
Did they really put a deep fryer up on the altar? :-) (I thought all
sacrifices were roasted, personally, but I lose track of the details
over time.)
>>>> Make me a reservation !
>>
>>> Why do you need a reservation?
>>
>> Well, a qorban Pesach does. You need to consciously join a group
>> assigned to the lamb.
>
> True, but that's just a once-a-year occurance. Josh was talking
> about "daily" sacrifices.
It could also be he was simply showing his enthusiasm for the practice
being reinstated. It's not that uncommon an idiom.
Tim Meushaw
>
> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>
>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>>
>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>
>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the denominations)
>> want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal sacrifice?
>
> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the name of
> feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
> abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
> "sacrifice"?
Most people forget, as Josh pointed out, that most sacrifices are
actually eaten and not simply killed for the sake of being killed.
sheldonlg
1 - I don't know who are new posters. I know who are long-time posters
2 - The shouting was in the second response.
3 - I assumed it was snipping. If it was gmail that does the snipping,
then why were my comments not snipped when he/she replied to them?
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>
>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the denominations)
>> want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal sacrifice?
>
> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the name of
> feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
> abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
> "sacrifice"?
I want no part of a God that requires killing animals **for sacrificial
purposes**. Killing them for food is part of the natural order of
things. Killing for **sacrifice** is barbaric -- and I don't care one
iota if the animal is subsequently eaten.
If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is resumed, at that point
my pride in being a Jew would turn to shame and disgust. Also, it would
no longer be **my** Judaism and I would try to distance myself from it
as much as a I could -- even to the point of saying "I was born Jewish,
but I am no longer a Jew".
Beware you who long for return of animal sacrifice. I venture to say
that the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewry is with me on this.
There are those of you who want to "purify" Judaism to the strict O
variety. Be careful what you wish for. It just may be granted.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Irrelevant.
--
Shelly
Tim Meushaw
Incorrect.
sheldonlg
For most of us in the civilized world, looking at a religion putting an
animal on alter and sacrificing that animal to God or gods produces a
visceral reaction of disgust. That the animal may be eaten afterwards
is irrelevant. YOU are incorrect.
I am holding up the yellow caution flag. It says "Proceed with caution
lest you want to lose the bulk of world's Jewry".
Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
--
Shelly
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
>>>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>>>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>>>
>>>> Why not fried?
>>>
>>> Which qorban is fried?
>>
>> AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fried.
>> Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
>
> Did they really put a deep fryer up on the altar? :-) (I thought all
> sacrifices were roasted, personally, but I lose track of the details
> over time.)
You're right, Tim. The part that went on the altar was indeed
roasted. But part that went on the altar was not eaten! Josh and I
ae refering to those portions of the sacrifice that _were_ eaten,
either by kohanim or by everybody.
>>>>> Make me a reservation !
>>>
>>>> Why do you need a reservation?
>>>
>>> Well, a qorban Pesach does. You need to consciously join a group
>>> assigned to the lamb.
>>
>> True, but that's just a once-a-year occurance. Josh was talking
>> about "daily" sacrifices.
>
> It could also be he was simply showing his enthusiasm for the
> practice being reinstated. It's not that uncommon an idiom.
I know, and Josh uses it quite often. I said it a bit to tease, and
a bit to generate discussion. (Does that make me a "troll"? <g>)
Tim Meushaw
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>>> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>>>Josh wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>>>>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>>>>
>>>>> Why not fried?
>>>>
>>>> Which qorban is fried?
>>>
>>> AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fried.
>>> Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
>>
>> Did they really put a deep fryer up on the altar? :-) (I thought all
>> sacrifices were roasted, personally, but I lose track of the details
>> over time.)
>
> You're right, Tim. The part that went on the altar was indeed
> roasted. But part that went on the altar was not eaten! Josh and I
> ae refering to those portions of the sacrifice that _were_ eaten,
> either by kohanim or by everybody.
I thought of that after I posted; whatever went on the altar tended to
stay on the altar, didn't they? Thanks for the correction.
Tim Meushaw
For a large chunk of the civilized world, sacrificing an animal to eat
it also produces a visceral reaction of disgust. We don't pander to
them, either, and I don't hold off on eating hamburgers. Of course,
some also hold vegetarians aren't civilized.... :-)
An animal is brought to the altar. It's slaughtered (not on the altar),
just like Jewish shochets do every day. The only difference is the
parts you don't eat (like the kidneys) are then burned on the altar.
Meanwhile, the rest gets eaten, just like today. That's why it's not
irrelevant; your scenario wasn't entirely accurate.
I know you won't be convinced, but I wanted to explain the point
before dropping out.
> I am holding up the yellow caution flag. It says "Proceed with caution
> lest you want to lose the bulk of world's Jewry".
>
> Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
Bimherah v'yamenu, as we (those Jews that do, that is, not you of course)
pray every single day. I know such things were taken out of Reform,
and I believe Conservative has them as optional in their prayer book,
but Orthodox prayers still include such wishes three times a day.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>>
>>> Why not fried?
>>
>> Which qorban is fried?
>
> AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fried.
> Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
See Rambam Hilchot Maaseh haKorbanot 10:10
>
>>>> Make me a reservation !
>>
>>> Why do you need a reservation?
>>
>> Well, a qorban Pesach does. You need to consciously join a group
>> assigned to the lamb.
>
> True, but that's just a once-a-year occurance. Josh was talking
> about "daily" sacrifices.
>
>> The todah (thanksgiving) in particular doesn't. The thankful person
>> gives enough to feed numerous comers. As celebrants generally do.
>> But that's bread, not lamb.
>
> Why do you say that? Can't _anyone_ (who is "fit") eat from the
> sacrifice _itself_? Isn't that the meaning of "L'chol Adam"?
>
> --
Josh
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>>
>>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the denominations)
>>> want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal sacrifice?
>>
>> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
>> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the name of
>> feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
>> abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
>> "sacrifice"?
>
> I want no part of a God that requires killing animals **for sacrificial
> purposes**. Killing them for food is part of the natural order of
> things. Killing for **sacrifice** is barbaric -- and I don't care one
> iota if the animal is subsequently eaten.
>
> If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is resumed, at that point
> my pride in being a Jew would turn to shame and disgust. Also, it would
> no longer be **my** Judaism and I would try to distance myself from it
> as much as a I could -- even to the point of saying "I was born Jewish,
> but I am no longer a Jew".
>
Wow ! He's embarrassed by the Jewish religion.
> Beware you who long for return of animal sacrifice. I venture to say
> that the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewry is with me on this.
> There are those of you who want to "purify" Judaism to the strict O
> variety. Be careful what you wish for. It just may be granted.
>
Bon voyage. Sayonara. Ni How. Auf wiedersehn. Chow.
Baruch Sheptaranu.
Josh
> --
> Shelly
Fiona Abrahami
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>>
>>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>>> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
>>> sacrifice?
>>
>> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
>> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the name
>> of feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
>> abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
>> "sacrifice"?
>
> I want no part of a God that requires killing animals **for sacrificial
> purposes**.
OK, as the God of Israel requires killing for "sacrificial purposes"
(whatever that means), then clearly you want no part of Judaism. Why don't
you become a Christian or a Buddhist or something (Muslims also make animal
sacrifices, so I guess Islam is not an option for you)?
> Killing them for food is part of the natural order of things.
Exactly, so what is the problem with sacrificing animals, particularly if
you, or your appointed Cohen eats them?
> Killing for **sacrifice** is barbaric -- and I don't care one iota if the
> animal is subsequently eaten.
What's barbaric about it? The process of killing is exactly the same, the
meat gets eaten, the only difference is that it's public.
> If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is resumed, at that point my
> pride in being a Jew would turn to shame and disgust. Also, it would no
> longer be **my** Judaism and I would try to distance myself from it as
> much as a I could -- even to the point of saying "I was born Jewish, but I
> am no longer a Jew".
By dismissing animal sacrifice (which He clearly asks for in the Torah)
you've already implied you don't want any part in Judaism, so why blame your
future disconnection with Judaism on actual application of the Torah.
> Beware you who long for return of animal sacrifice. I venture to say that
> the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewry is with me on this.
The overwhelming majority of the world's Jews already don't keep Judaism,
why would their continued refusal to keep halachah stop those who keep Torah
and mitzvot from keeping these mitzvot too if they get the chance?
Fiona
sheldonlg
Aha! Well, here is the thing. I have no problem with having a big feast
at a religious celebration. Having the animal on the alter is the
problem and, now I learn is NOT eaten. It is purely an animal sacrifice
-- and THAT is barbaric.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
>> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>>>
>>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>>> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to
>>> animal sacrifice?
>>
>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>
> Why not fried.
Because meat korbanot (apart from "menachot") were not fried. They were
roasted or broiled.
>
>> Make me a reservation !
>
> Why do you need a reservation?
OK, I'll give you the Jewish American Princess version:
"What does a J.A.P. make for lunch ?
RESERVATIONS ! [at a fancy restaurant]
Josh
sheldonlg
> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>>>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>>>> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
>>>> sacrifice?
>>> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
>>> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the name
>>> of feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
>>> abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
>>> "sacrifice"?
>> I want no part of a God that requires killing animals **for sacrificial
>> purposes**.
>
> OK, as the God of Israel requires killing for "sacrificial purposes"
> (whatever that means), then clearly you want no part of Judaism. Why don't
> you become a Christian or a Buddhist or something (Muslims also make animal
> sacrifices, so I guess Islam is not an option for you)?
**MY** Judaism has no part of animal sacrifice.
>
>> Killing them for food is part of the natural order of things.
>
> Exactly, so what is the problem with sacrificing animals, particularly if
> you, or your appointed Cohen eats them?
>
>> Killing for **sacrifice** is barbaric -- and I don't care one iota if the
>> animal is subsequently eaten.
>
> What's barbaric about it? The process of killing is exactly the same, the
> meat gets eaten, the only difference is that it's public.
There is a major difference between killing animals for food and killing
animals to appease some primitive god. (Lowercase letters deliberate)
>
>> If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is resumed, at that point my
>> pride in being a Jew would turn to shame and disgust. Also, it would no
>> longer be **my** Judaism and I would try to distance myself from it as
>> much as a I could -- even to the point of saying "I was born Jewish, but I
>> am no longer a Jew".
>
> By dismissing animal sacrifice (which He clearly asks for in the Torah)
> you've already implied you don't want any part in Judaism, so why blame your
> future disconnection with Judaism on actual application of the Torah.
We have outgrown that primitive act. I won't be disconnecting in the
future because I don't believe I will ever see it happen. There was a
big **IF** in my statement.
>
>> Beware you who long for return of animal sacrifice. I venture to say that
>> the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewry is with me on this.
>
> The overwhelming majority of the world's Jews already don't keep Judaism,
Not the O brand.
> why would their continued refusal to keep halachah stop those who keep Torah
> and mitzvot from keeping these mitzvot too if they get the chance?
Because you will so isolate yourselves from everyone and lose any
support you now have. Do you REALLY believe that Israel could survive
more than a few months if the US totally washed its hands of Israel?
What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that
they abandon all connection to Israel? How will their representatives
then vote? How will the President react?
That is a VERY practical reason why they should care!
--
Shelly
chsw
I do not think that our children will see restoration of the
sacrifice procedures in their lifetimes, even if Israel
constructs a new Temple (more likely, a national synagogue) on
the Temple Mount. This issue is a red herring, not a red heifer.
Don't get worked up over nothing.
chsw
sheldonlg
...a national synagogue? OK. Yes, I agree with you. That is why I said
**If**.
Fiona Abrahami
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>>> Fiona Abrahami wrote:
>>>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>>>>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>>>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>>>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>>>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>>>>> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
>>>>> sacrifice?
>>>> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
>>>> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the
>>>> name of feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed
>>>> doors of an abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue
>>>> with religious "sacrifice"?
>>> I want no part of a God that requires killing animals **for sacrificial
>>> purposes**.
>>
>> OK, as the God of Israel requires killing for "sacrificial purposes"
>> (whatever that means), then clearly you want no part of Judaism. Why
>> don't you become a Christian or a Buddhist or something (Muslims also
>> make animal sacrifices, so I guess Islam is not an option for you)?
>
> **MY** Judaism has no part of animal sacrifice.
Then **YOUR** Judaism has no part in the Torah.
>>> Killing them for food is part of the natural order of things.
>>
>> Exactly, so what is the problem with sacrificing animals, particularly if
>> you, or your appointed Cohen eats them?
>>
>>> Killing for **sacrifice** is barbaric -- and I don't care one iota if
>>> the animal is subsequently eaten.
>>
>> What's barbaric about it? The process of killing is exactly the same, the
>> meat gets eaten, the only difference is that it's public.
>
> There is a major difference between killing animals for food and killing
> animals to appease some primitive god. (Lowercase letters deliberate)
Primative god (lowercase letters)? You're calling the God of the Jews a
primative lowercase god!?
>>> If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is resumed, at that point
>>> my pride in being a Jew would turn to shame and disgust. Also, it would
>>> no longer be **my** Judaism and I would try to distance myself from it
>>> as much as a I could -- even to the point of saying "I was born Jewish,
>>> but I am no longer a Jew".
>>
>> By dismissing animal sacrifice (which He clearly asks for in the Torah)
>> you've already implied you don't want any part in Judaism, so why blame
>> your future disconnection with Judaism on actual application of the
>> Torah.
>
> We have outgrown that primitive act.
No, we've been deprived of access to the only valid place to perform the act
for 2000 years, that's not the same thing. For that whole period we have
been making the best of our circumstances. Making deprivation into a virtue
is more akin to Stockholm Syndrome than "outgrowing" behaviour.
If for no other reason than asserting our independance I believe the Temple
should be rebuild and sacrifices re-established, if the Sanhedrin then
chooses to abolish or limit the sacrifices to the minimum mandated ones then
that would be fine by me. But until we re-establish them we can't outgrow
them.
>>> Beware you who long for return of animal sacrifice. I venture to say
>>> that the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewry is with me on this.
>>
>> The overwhelming majority of the world's Jews already don't keep Judaism,
>
> Not the O brand.
OK, I'll reword that to avoid a return to the OCR wars: The overwhelming
majority of the world's Jews already don't keep Torah.
>> why would their continued refusal to keep halachah stop those who keep
>> Torah and mitzvot from keeping these mitzvot too if they get the chance?
>
> Because you will so isolate yourselves from everyone and lose any support
> you now have. Do you REALLY believe that Israel could survive more than a
> few months if the US totally washed its hands of Israel?
Yes, I do.
> What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that they
> abandon all connection to Israel?
Who cares, the majority of US Jews are already anti-Israel, they voted for
Obama, the most anti-Israel US president since Carter.
> That is a VERY practical reason why they should care!
Not really.
Fiona
Micha Berger
> An animal is brought to the altar. It's slaughtered (not on the altar),
> just like Jewish shochets do every day. The only difference is the
> parts you don't eat (like the kidneys) are then burned on the altar.
> Meanwhile, the rest gets eaten, just like today. That's why it's not
> irrelevant; your scenario wasn't entirely accurate.
I'm curious to know how many of us who believe we're supposed to want a
restoration of the sacrifices actually anticipate it. I must confess
that I'm too 21st cent for that, and generally during Mussaf or Qorbanos
(or parts of the liturgy that discuss sacrifices) my thought is asking
G-d to help me learn how to want them, to realize what I'm missing on
an emotional level.
On an intellectual level, I think of it in terms of a parallel to buying
my wife flowers. She doesn't need the flowers. Most of the time, she
never even looks at the flowers, and doesn't even notice them at the
Shabbos table except when they get in the way of seeing someone. (Of
course, other wives could well appreciate their beauty more, but I think
the next point still stands.)
Giving my wife flowers isn't about the flowers, but about the giving.
Human beings in a relationship have a need to give. And we feel more
appreciated and loved when we see someone make the effort to give. While
we all like our toys, and it's not *only* the thought that counts (in
real, non-idealized people), the thought is much of the gift.
We also like to share meals with those we love. There is something very
primal about "breaking bread".
Look how the Torah describes sacrifices. They aren't first commanded.
Cain and Abel naturally come up with them. Noah is overcome by emotion
(and perhaps a hefty load of survivor guilt) and makes an offering,
etc... The laws of qorbanos don't come with a claim that they are the
invention the notion of offering something to G-d. Rather, they channel
and embellish a natural inclination.
If we were feeling an equally deep emotional attachment to G-d, we
would also feel this need to give. Not only meaningful gifts, but also
gestures as gestures. It is only when the gesture is used /instead/ of
the meaningful gift, when we offered sacrifices in an attempt to keep
G-d happy while we took advantage of the poor, the widow and the orphan,
that G-d put an end to them. A bunch of roses won't wallpaper over having
an affair. It would increase a wife's anger at her husband's attempt to
manipulate her.
For the Torah to tell us to curtail that need to make gestures of
affection, to give gifts just for the sake of giving and to share a meal
(as much as possible) would be to force an artificiality and lack of
authenticity on the notion of loving G-d.
Instead, Vayiqra layers more meaning atop the basic primal notion.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 14th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (270) 514-1507 G-d?
Micha Berger
> There is a major difference between killing animals for food and killing
> animals to appease some primitive god. (Lowercase letters deliberate)
Good thing that (1) sacrifices were (mostly) food, with none of the
edible parts (as judged outside of England <g>) placed on the altar;
and (2) when the attitude about sacrifices turned toward making them
an appeasement, G-d said He would get rid of them, and the 1st Temple
was destroyed. Similarly the second, but I have prophets to cite about
the first. Ther sages who lived through the fall of the second had to
reason out conclusions, not transmit what G-d told them.
Shelly isn't discussing anything related to Judaism and its attitude
about qorbanos.
(Not that history leads me to expect his opinion will change just because
someone pointed out his assumptions were wrong.)
sheldonlg
I am saying that we Jews have outgrown the primitive practice that was
there for a primitive society. IOW, God knew what was necessary AT THAT
TIME. We have progressed will past that point -- or so I thought.
Continuing that practice TODAY would, indeed, be praying to a primitive
[concept of] g[G]od.
>
>>>> If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifice is resumed, at that point
>>>> my pride in being a Jew would turn to shame and disgust. Also, it would
>>>> no longer be **my** Judaism and I would try to distance myself from it
>>>> as much as a I could -- even to the point of saying "I was born Jewish,
>>>> but I am no longer a Jew".
>>> By dismissing animal sacrifice (which He clearly asks for in the Torah)
>>> you've already implied you don't want any part in Judaism, so why blame
>>> your future disconnection with Judaism on actual application of the
>>> Torah.
>> We have outgrown that primitive act.
>
> No, we've been deprived of access to the only valid place to perform the act
> for 2000 years, that's not the same thing. For that whole period we have
> been making the best of our circumstances. Making deprivation into a virtue
> is more akin to Stockholm Syndrome than "outgrowing" behaviour.
Adversity leads to innovation. Innovation is what provides advance.
The "good old days" were really not. We see it all around us. Would
you want to return to the "good old days" before electricity, etc.? No,
Fiona, we have innovated, adapted, and GROWN.
>
> If for no other reason than asserting our independance I believe the Temple
> should be rebuild and sacrifices re-established, if the Sanhedrin then
> chooses to abolish or limit the sacrifices to the minimum mandated ones then
> that would be fine by me. But until we re-establish them we can't outgrow
> them.
Do you need to re-institute your wearing of diapers in order to
"outgrow" them? That is a perfect analogy for what I am saying.
>
>>>> Beware you who long for return of animal sacrifice. I venture to say
>>>> that the overwhelming majority of the world's Jewry is with me on this.
>>> The overwhelming majority of the world's Jews already don't keep Judaism,
>> Not the O brand.
>
> OK, I'll reword that to avoid a return to the OCR wars: The overwhelming
> majority of the world's Jews already don't keep Torah.
Keep trying. Make that "halacha", and we have a deal.
>
>>> why would their continued refusal to keep halachah stop those who keep
>>> Torah and mitzvot from keeping these mitzvot too if they get the chance?
>> Because you will so isolate yourselves from everyone and lose any support
>> you now have. Do you REALLY believe that Israel could survive more than a
>> few months if the US totally washed its hands of Israel?
>
> Yes, I do.
I have a wonderful looking bridge over the East River in NYC that I can
let you have for the bargain price of only $10,000.
Time to wake up, fiona.
>
>> What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that they
>> abandon all connection to Israel?
>
> Who cares, the majority of US Jews are already anti-Israel, they voted for
> Obama, the most anti-Israel US president since Carter.
Really?
We voted for Obama because we believe he is best for the US!!!! We are
US citizens! We also don't believe that he is anti-Israel. He has
flatly declared that he supports Israel. What is it? You don't like
his diplomacy methods?
I reiterate -- wake up Fiona.
>
>> That is a VERY practical reason why they should care!
>
> Not really.
One more time -- wake up.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> An animal is brought to the altar. It's slaughtered (not on the altar),
>> just like Jewish shochets do every day. The only difference is the
>> parts you don't eat (like the kidneys) are then burned on the altar.
>> Meanwhile, the rest gets eaten, just like today. That's why it's not
>> irrelevant; your scenario wasn't entirely accurate.
>
> I'm curious to know how many of us who believe we're supposed to want a
> restoration of the sacrifices actually anticipate it. I must confess
> that I'm too 21st cent for that, and generally during Mussaf or Qorbanos
THANK YOU Micha.
> (or parts of the liturgy that discuss sacrifices) my thought is asking
> G-d to help me learn how to want them, to realize what I'm missing on
> an emotional level.
>
> On an intellectual level, I think of it in terms of a parallel to buying
> my wife flowers. She doesn't need the flowers. Most of the time, she
> never even looks at the flowers, and doesn't even notice them at the
> Shabbos table except when they get in the way of seeing someone. (Of
> course, other wives could well appreciate their beauty more, but I think
> the next point still stands.)
>
> Giving my wife flowers isn't about the flowers, but about the giving.
> Human beings in a relationship have a need to give. And we feel more
> appreciated and loved when we see someone make the effort to give. While
> we all like our toys, and it's not *only* the thought that counts (in
> real, non-idealized people), the thought is much of the gift.
>
> We also like to share meals with those we love. There is something very
> primal about "breaking bread".
>
> Look how the Torah describes sacrifices. They aren't first commanded.
> Cain and Abel naturally come up with them. Noah is overcome by emotion
> (and perhaps a hefty load of survivor guilt) and makes an offering,
> etc... The laws of qorbanos don't come with a claim that they are the
> invention the notion of offering something to G-d. Rather, they channel
> and embellish a natural inclination.
I agree with all of this. In those days, a man's wealth was measured by
his livestock. So, giving of his property, or of the commodity of
exchange, meant giving up livestock. Today we use money. I have no
problem with satisfying this need to give by giving money (or of your
time and effort).
>
> If we were feeling an equally deep emotional attachment to G-d, we
> would also feel this need to give. Not only meaningful gifts, but also
> gestures as gestures. It is only when the gesture is used /instead/ of
> the meaningful gift, when we offered sacrifices in an attempt to keep
> G-d happy while we took advantage of the poor, the widow and the orphan,
> that G-d put an end to them. A bunch of roses won't wallpaper over having
> an affair. It would increase a wife's anger at her husband's attempt to
> manipulate her.
>
> For the Torah to tell us to curtail that need to make gestures of
> affection, to give gifts just for the sake of giving and to share a meal
> (as much as possible) would be to force an artificiality and lack of
> authenticity on the notion of loving G-d.
Well said. The gifts, though, can be monetary and that is what have
evolved into.
>
> Instead, Vayiqra layers more meaning atop the basic primal notion.
>
--
Shelly
levi...@gmail.com
> Tim Meushaw wrote:
> > On 2009-04-23, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's not barbaric, just primitive. I wouldn't worry too much about it,
though -- not as long as there are more sane Israelis than loony ones.
Jay
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> There is a major difference between killing animals for food and killing
>> animals to appease some primitive god. (Lowercase letters deliberate)
>
> Good thing that (1) sacrifices were (mostly) food, with none of the
> edible parts (as judged outside of England <g>) placed on the altar;
> and (2) when the attitude about sacrifices turned toward making them
> an appeasement, G-d said He would get rid of them, and the 1st Temple
> was destroyed. Similarly the second, but I have prophets to cite about
> the first. Ther sages who lived through the fall of the second had to
> reason out conclusions, not transmit what G-d told them.
>
> Shelly isn't discussing anything related to Judaism and its attitude
> about qorbanos.
>
> (Not that history leads me to expect his opinion will change just because
> someone pointed out his assumptions were wrong.)
My opinion of sacrificing animals would not change even if it were with
my prior assumption that everything was eaten, rather than some parts
being left on the alter.
My opinion is based on my belief that the Jewish religion over the past
2,000 years has grown and progressed well past that primitive practice.
I would no longer want to see a return of that than I would like to
see a return to the stoning of an adultress.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Yes, Jay, I stand corrected. Primitive is a much better word. Emotions
come into play here. As I said, there is a strong visceral reaction
against it.
chsw
The argument about the Temple sacrifices is a red herring, not a
red heifer. Can you imagine all of the debate about procedures
in order to avoid "bringing a strange fire"? Then, there would
be thousands of claimants asserting that they were entitled to be
Kohen Gadol. Restoration of the sacrifices just isn't going to
happen.
> Because you will so isolate yourselves from everyone and lose any
> support you now have. Do you REALLY believe that Israel could survive
> more than a few months if the US totally washed its hands of Israel?
See today's thread on pass-through arms sales to Hizballah.
> What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that
> they abandon all connection to Israel? How will their representatives
> then vote? How will the President react?
I think that this President is slowly revealing how he would act.
chsw
levi...@gmail.com
I agree. On the day Jews start sacrificing at a temple again, they
will be the laughingstock of the civilized world. I would have as much
in common with them as I do with the Neturei Karta who support
Ahmadinejad and demonstrate for him every time he comes to New York.
I wrote "a temple" and not "THE Temple" because I don't believe that
the original will rise any time soon. You'd need to get rid of those
two pesky mosques first. When you do that and all hell breaks loose,
the Christian Fundies will rejoice that the second coming was about to
happen, our Jewish UOs would rejoice that the Messiah is about to
arrive, and the Moslems would rejoice that the prophet had returned
and that American TV stations would soon be administered by the
Taliban. The rest of us can just kiss our a**e* goodbye.
Jay
Fiona Abrahami
"chsw" <chsw...@yahoo.com> wrote
> sheldonlg wrote:
>
>> Because you will so isolate yourselves from everyone and lose any support
>> you now have. Do you REALLY believe that Israel could survive more than
>> a few months if the US totally washed its hands of Israel?
>
> See today's thread on pass-through arms sales to Hizballah.
>
>> What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that
>> they abandon all connection to Israel? How will their representatives
>> then vote? How will the President react?
>
> I think that this President is slowly revealing how he would act.
For those of us not frozen like deers in headlights by the brilliance of his
halo, "how he would" act was revealed long before he became president, and
he is now merely confirming what we predicted.
BTW, did you see the news about Russia giving Lebanon fighter jets for free?
Now exactly are the Lebanese tooling up to fight, Syria?
Fiona
sheldonlg
> "chsw" <chsw...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> sheldonlg wrote:
>>
>>> Because you will so isolate yourselves from everyone and lose any support
>>> you now have. Do you REALLY believe that Israel could survive more than
>>> a few months if the US totally washed its hands of Israel?
>> See today's thread on pass-through arms sales to Hizballah.
>>
>>> What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that
>>> they abandon all connection to Israel? How will their representatives
>>> then vote? How will the President react?
>> I think that this President is slowly revealing how he would act.
>
> For those of us not frozen like deers in headlights by the brilliance of his
> halo, "how he would" act was revealed long before he became president, and
> he is now merely confirming what we predicted.
Whatever.
Henry Goodman
news:slrngv0f9b....@athens.meushaw.com...
> On 2009-04-23, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, ribs,
>>>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>>>
>>>> Why not fried?
>>>
>>> Which qorban is fried?
>>
>> AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fried.
>> Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
>
> Did they really put a deep fryer up on the altar? :-) (I thought all
> sacrifices were roasted, personally, but I lose track of the details
> over time.)
>
Assuming we are talking about Shelomim (peace offerings) then only the
chelev goes on the altar; the main meat is taken away by the celebrant and
may be cooked and eaten anywhere in Jerusalem.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
fla...@verizon.net
On 22-Apr-2009, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net said:
>
> >So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>
> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
I've seen that, yes - and it's terrific.
I guess I meant something a little more... governmental.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2009-04-23, Fiona Abrahami <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
> >> Yisroel Markov wrote:
> >>> fla...@verizon.net said:
> >>>
> >>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
> >>>
> >>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
> >>
> >> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
> >> denominations)
> >> want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal sacrifice?
> >
How can anyone NOT??
>
> > Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
> > around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the
> > name of
> > feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
> > abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
> > "sacrifice"?
>
> Most people forget, as Josh pointed out, that most sacrifices are
> actually eaten and not simply killed for the sake of being killed.
As I always say - "Priests gotta eat!"
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >>>> Most people forget, as Josh pointed out, that most sacrifices are
> >>>> actually eaten and not simply killed for the sake of being killed.
> >>> Irrelevant.
> >>
> >> Incorrect.
> >
> > For most of us in the civilized world, looking at a religion putting an
> > animal on alter and sacrificing that animal to God or gods produces a
> > visceral reaction of disgust.
It's a shame how the word "civilization" gets mis-sued.
> > That the animal may be eaten afterwards
> > is irrelevant. YOU are incorrect.
>
> For a large chunk of the civilized world, sacrificing an animal to eat
> it also produces a visceral reaction of disgust. We don't pander to
> them, either, and I don't hold off on eating hamburgers. Of course,
> some also hold vegetarians aren't civilized.... :-)
>
Correct.
> An animal is brought to the altar. It's slaughtered (not on the altar),
> just like Jewish shochets do every day. The only difference is the
> parts you don't eat (like the kidneys) are then burned on the altar.
> Meanwhile, the rest gets eaten, just like today. That's why it's not
> irrelevant; your scenario wasn't entirely accurate.
>
> I know you won't be convinced, but I wanted to explain the point
> before dropping out.
>
> > I am holding up the yellow caution flag. It says "Proceed with caution
> > lest you want to lose the bulk of world's Jewry".
> >
> > Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
>
> Bimherah v'yamenu, as we (those Jews that do, that is, not you of course)
> pray every single day. I know such things were taken out of Reform,
> and I believe Conservative has them as optional in their prayer book,
> but Orthodox prayers still include such wishes three times a day.
>
I'm betting there's plenty of Reform who would also like to see the Temple
rebuilt.
I also bet that we would gain as many as we "lose" - at the least.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Killing them for food is part of the natural order of things.
>
> Exactly, so what is the problem with sacrificing animals, particularly if
> you, or your appointed Cohen eats them?
Dad, z"l, always liked a slice of tomato and a few
lettuce leaves with his charred sacrifice :-)
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, chsw <chsw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The argument about the Temple sacrifices is a red herring, not a
> red heifer. Can you imagine all of the debate about procedures
> in order to avoid "bringing a strange fire"?
Gurantee you there are those who have already hashed this
out among themselves :-) - and the rest will be thrilled to let
them do it.
> Then, there would
> be thousands of claimants asserting that they were entitled to be
> Kohen Gadol.
Right up until the someone points out what his duties &
responsibilities arem and how he has to live.
> Restoration of the sacrifices just isn't going to
> happen.
We'll see :-)
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
> In article <S1JHl.19$fy...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, fla...@verizon.net
> writes:
> > So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>
>
>
> you get the best deals in town (not like at Murray Levine the
> ganiff, he should choke) hereby pledge $1000 ANONYMOUSLY !! :-) :-)
An oldie, but a goodie. Sort of :-)
Seriously, I would give in my father's name.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 22-Apr-2009, schotness <scho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If that was sarcasm I'm quite amused, if it wasn't I'm not.
Since it wasn't meant to be amusing, I guess we're all okay.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > What happens if the vast majority of US Jews become so disgusted that
> > they
> > abandon all connection to Israel?
>
> Who cares, the majority of US Jews are already anti-Israel, they voted for
>
> Obama, the most anti-Israel US president since Carter.
I want to go on record as saying that while I see that his
rhetoric is different from Bush's, I still say that the policy
will not really change. So far, every harsh word directed
at Israel, every "threat", has been contingent on the terrorists
also stopping what they are doing. I think Obama is being
very clever, even if I don't approve of his even appearing to
coddle them.
Susan
Don Levey
I know that it's a non-zero number.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
sheldonlg
> On 23-Apr-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2009-04-23, Fiona Abrahami <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> "sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote
>>>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>>>> fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>>>> denominations)
>>>> want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal sacrifice?
> How can anyone NOT??
Ugh!
>>> Why not, millions, perhaps billions of animals are sacrificed every day
>>> around the world, don't you eat meat? Just because it happens in the
>>> name of
>>> feeding people (and their pets), and happens behind closed doors of an
>>> abbatoir it is no less bloody. What exactly is your issue with religious
>>> "sacrifice"?
>> Most people forget, as Josh pointed out, that most sacrifices are
>> actually eaten and not simply killed for the sake of being killed.
>
> As I always say - "Priests gotta eat!"
That's what a salary is for.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Yes, many would including me -- so long as it was a National Synagogue
and not animal sacrifice. You would have to search far and wide to find
a Reform Jew who would support a rebuilding of the temple once they
found out that it also meant animal sacrifice.
>
> I also bet that we would gain as many as we "lose" - at the least.
Perry Como's theme song comes to mind -- except for the "me" part.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>> On 23-Apr-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
>>> Bimherah v'yamenu, as we (those Jews that do, that is, not you of course)
>>> pray every single day. I know such things were taken out of Reform,
>>> and I believe Conservative has them as optional in their prayer book,
>>> but Orthodox prayers still include such wishes three times a day.
>>>
>> I'm betting there's plenty of Reform who would also like to see the Temple
>> rebuilt.
>>
>
> I know that it's a non-zero number.
Considering there over a million of us, I'd also be willing to say that.
However, once they found out about animal sacrifice being there, that
number would be damn close to zero.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
I must state that I am surprised to see this slight movement away from
blindness.
Steve Goldfarb
>Considering there over a million of us, I'd also be willing to say that.
> However, once they found out about animal sacrifice being there, that
>number would be damn close to zero.
I don't know - seems to me it depends on how you position the whole animal
sacrifice thing. That is, there's a sort of "old school" way to do it,
they way one imagines it from the movies or whatever, but there's also an
almost new-agey approach as well.
I could envision this process as essentially a replacement for everyday
meat consumption - almost a vegetarian movement, in fact, oxymoronic as
that may seem. The notion being that meat-eating would be constrained to
certain ceremonial occassions, and performed with dignity and, well,
ceremony rather than just endless lines of cows getting a bolt to the
skull.
If you're opposed to the killing of animals for food, then you need to be
a vegetarian. If you're OK with killing animals for food, then what's the
problem with adding a layer of ceremony? People don't seem to have a
problem with the (possibly only in movies) notion of American Indians
"thanking the animal" or whatever - what's the difference?
That is, it's not "in our religion we kill animals," it's "in our
religion, we only eat animals that have been killed in a properly
reverential manner." Don't see an ethical problem with that, myself.
--s
--
Yisroel Markov
said:
>On Apr 22, 5:06 pm, Yisroel Markov <ey.mar...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), flav...@verizon.net said:
>>
>> >So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>
>> Check outhttp://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>>
>I have to ask: Are they serious?
Yes, as far as I can tell. Why the heck not?
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
Yisroel Markov
<shel...@giganews.com> said:
>Yisroel Markov wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net said:
>>
>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>
>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>
>How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
>sacrifice?
How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism NOT want a rebuilding of
the temple with a return to animal sacrifices? That is, if the Law
matters to one at all?
Maimonides was of the opinion that the sacrificial cult was a
necessary concession to a people who, at that stage, wouldn't have
bought into a Covenant (which was already very unusual for its time)
that didn't include such things. But even he wrote that restoration of
the Temple and its service is how we'll be able to definitively
recognize the Mashiakh - because once instituted, the sacrificial cult
is Law. If the restored Sanhedrin interprets it out of existence, fine
- but intil then, we will pray for its restoration.
But then again, you don't buy into the idea of Jewish law.
>Ugh! And we look down upon those Haitians that have chicken sacrifice
>as part of their rituals!
[shrug] I don't. What's a few more chickens killed in addition to the
millions? "The person who eats meat is on the moral level of the
butcher."
Don Levey
I'm pretty sure that most of those who are actively awaiting the
rebuilding of the Temple understand what's involved, including the
sacrifices.
sheldonlg
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:17:46 +0000 (UTC), sheldonlg
> <shel...@giganews.com> said:
>
>> Yisroel Markov wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net said:
>>>
>>>> So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
>> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism (of any of the
>> denominations) want a rebuilding of the temple with a return to animal
>> sacrifice?
>
> How can anyone who supports rabbinic Judaism NOT want a rebuilding of
> the temple with a return to animal sacrifices? That is, if the Law
> matters to one at all?
>
> Maimonides was of the opinion that the sacrificial cult was a
> necessary concession to a people who, at that stage, wouldn't have
> bought into a Covenant (which was already very unusual for its time)
> that didn't include such things. But even he wrote that restoration of
> the Temple and its service is how we'll be able to definitively
> recognize the Mashiakh - because once instituted, the sacrificial cult
> is Law. If the restored Sanhedrin interprets it out of existence, fine
> - but intil then, we will pray for its restoration.
>
> But then again, you don't buy into the idea of Jewish law.
What surprised me in your post is that I partly agree with Maimonades
(the first part of that paragraph).
>
>> Ugh! And we look down upon those Haitians that have chicken sacrifice
>> as part of their rituals!
>
> [shrug] I don't. What's a few more chickens killed in addition to the
> millions? "The person who eats meat is on the moral level of the
> butcher."
....an honest and needed profession!
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> sheldonlg wrote:
>> Don Levey wrote:
>>> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>>>> On 23-Apr-2009, Tim Meushaw <meu...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
>>>>> Bimherah v'yamenu, as we (those Jews that do, that is, not you of
>>>>> course)
>>>>> pray every single day. I know such things were taken out of Reform,
>>>>> and I believe Conservative has them as optional in their prayer book,
>>>>> but Orthodox prayers still include such wishes three times a day.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm betting there's plenty of Reform who would also like to see the
>>>> Temple
>>>> rebuilt.
>>>>
>>> I know that it's a non-zero number.
>> Considering there over a million of us, I'd also be willing to say that.
>> However, once they found out about animal sacrifice being there, that
>> number would be damn close to zero.
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure that most of those who are actively awaiting the
> rebuilding of the Temple understand what's involved, including the
> sacrifices.
>
I'm not. (of the Reform, that is).
--
Shelly
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >>
> > I'm betting there's plenty of Reform who would also like to see the
> > Temple
> > rebuilt.
> >
>
> I know that it's a non-zero number.
And here we thought only Henry had that understatement thing going on...
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> >>> I'm betting there's plenty of Reform who would also like to see the
> >>> Temple
> >>> rebuilt.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I know that it's a non-zero number.
> >
> > Considering there over a million of us, I'd also be willing to say that.
> > However, once they found out about animal sacrifice being there, that
> > number would be damn close to zero.
> >
>
> I'm pretty sure that most of those who are actively awaiting the
> rebuilding of the Temple understand what's involved, including the
> sacrifices.
Yeah, I don't know too many *stupid* Reform...
Susan
Micha Berger
> Maimonides was of the opinion that the sacrificial cult was a
> necessary concession to a people who, at that stage, wouldn't have
> bought into a Covenant (which was already very unusual for its time)
> that didn't include such things. But even he wrote that restoration of
> the Temple and its service is how we'll be able to definitively
> recognize the Mashiakh - because once instituted, the sacrificial cult
> is Law. If the restored Sanhedrin interprets it out of existence, fine
> - but intil then, we will pray for its restoration.
R Meir Simcha haKohein miDvinsk, in Meshech Chokhmah (intro to Lev),
resolves the two by explaining the Rambam in the Guide as speaking to a
specific kind of sacrifice. M is discussing in the Guide is an offering
on any of the "high places" (bamos), a practice that was only allowed
until the Temple altar was dedicated. IOW, we really were weened off
them. The binding of the physical to the spiritual described in the
Code is the sacrifice at the Temple, which served a different role and
therefore still has a purpose in the messianic era.
(That said, I still think that the O Jew who truly awaits the revival of
animal sacrifice is a rarity. Most of us know we're supposed to; but I
suspect I'm far from alone in actually being incapable of having that
desire -- and in feeling guilty for that shortcoming.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 14th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org 2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (270) 514-1507 G-d?
Micha Berger
> On 22-Apr-2009, Yisroel Markov <ey.m...@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:14:08 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net said:
>> >So, where/how do I contribute to the Temple building campaign?
>> Check out http://www.begedivri.com/shekel.htm
> I've seen that, yes - and it's terrific.
I had him make me an outfit a while back. I wear it at the seder. (And
at educational programs. "This is how R' Aqiva dressed...")
Henry Goodman
"sheldonlg" <shel...@giganews.com> wrote in message
news:JLGdnRCgecqkFW3U...@giganews.com...
> Micha Berger wrote:
>> sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> wrote:
>>> There is a major difference between killing animals for food and killing
>>> animals to appease some primitive god. (Lowercase letters deliberate)
>>
>> Good thing that (1) sacrifices were (mostly) food, with none of the
>> edible parts (as judged outside of England <g>) placed on the altar;
>> and (2) when the attitude about sacrifices turned toward making them
>> an appeasement, G-d said He would get rid of them, and the 1st Temple
>> was destroyed. Similarly the second, but I have prophets to cite about
>> the first. Ther sages who lived through the fall of the second had to
>> reason out conclusions, not transmit what G-d told them.
>>
>> Shelly isn't discussing anything related to Judaism and its attitude
>> about qorbanos.
>>
>> (Not that history leads me to expect his opinion will change just because
>> someone pointed out his assumptions were wrong.)
>
> My opinion of sacrificing animals would not change even if it were with my
> prior assumption that everything was eaten, rather than some parts being
> left on the alter.
>
Shelley, you keep writing "alter" instead of "altar". Do you want to alter
that or is that the American spelling of "altar"?
Fiona Abrahami
chsw
It is an American misspelling.
chsw (who used to translate USspeak and UKspeak for British bank
execs, 25 years ago)
chsw
Don't tell me he used mayo, and white bread.
>
> Fiona
>
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
My brother loves that stuff.
Oddly enough, the charoses I made this year actually
complemented it - or was complemented by it - we
haven't decided which.
Susan
or
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Apr-2009, chsw <chsw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No, just the lettuce and tomato on the side.
He considered that "salad".
Susan
Henry Goodman
news:gsqpsp$tmt$1...@news.motzarella.org...
Typical result of relying on spell checkers.
sheldonlg
Try to do a better job at choosing your words -- even more so if you are
going to accentuate them in emphasis marks or bolding.
Item: There is a WORLD of difference between "uninformed" and "stupid".
The is a classification of lack of a particular piece of information.
The second is an ad homenim. I would venture to say that upwards of 95%
of Reform and probably 80% of Conservative are unaware that a rebuilding
of the temple means a return to animal sacrifice. I, for one, was
unaware of that aspect until it was pointed out here on SCJM many years
ago (and I was raised in what was then called Orthodox). How much more
so for those who had no such background. Of course Susan probably won't
accept these estimates.
I think you owe all Reform who do not know that an apology. (Be aware,
Susan, that you have just thrown the first ad homenim, and I am
**trying** not to retaliate.)
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
Neither. It is a mistake on my part and, of course, the spell checker
doesn't pick it up since alter is a valid word. Thanks, I new better but
some words I just seem to keep misspelling.
--
Shelly
sheldonlg
> Henry Goodman wrote:
>>
>> Shelley, you keep writing "alter" instead of "altar". Do you want to
>> alter that or is that the American spelling of "altar"?
>
>
> It is an American misspelling.
ONE American's misspelling.
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> On Apr 23, 11:37=A0am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> levin...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Apr 23, 9:12 am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@giganews.com> wrote:
>> >> Tim Meushaw wrote:
>> >>> On 2009-04-23, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>> >>>> Tim Meushaw <meus...@pobox.com> writes:
>> >>>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>> >>>>>> mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) writes:
>> >>>>>>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Josh wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Sacrifices which people eat. Picture a huge daily BBQ. Steaks, =
> ribs,
>> >>>>>>>>> juicy lamb chops. And it's not fried, it's roasted or broiled.
>> >>>>>>>> Why not fried?
>> >>>>>>> Which qorban is fried?
>> >>>>>> AFAIK _any_ qorban, except for the qorban Pesach, may be eaten fri=
> ed.
>> >>>>>> Isn't that the meaning of "B'chol Ma'achol"?
>> >>>>> Did they really put a deep fryer up on the altar? =A0:-) =A0(I thou=
> ght all
>> >>>>> sacrifices were roasted, personally, but I lose track of the detail=
> s
>> >>>>> over time.)
>> >>>> You're right, Tim. The part that went on the altar was indeed
>> >>>> roasted. But part that went on the altar was not eaten! Josh and I
>> >>>> ae refering to those portions of the sacrifice that _were_ eaten,
>> >>>> either by kohanim or by everybody.
>> >>> I thought of that after I posted; whatever went on the altar tended t=
> o
>> >>> stay on the altar, didn't they? =A0Thanks for the correction.
>> >>> Tim
>> >> Aha! Well, here is the thing. =A0I have no problem with having a big f=
> east
>> >> at a religious celebration. =A0Having the animal on the alter is the
>> >> problem and, now I learn is NOT eaten. =A0It is purely an animal sacri=
> fice
>> >> -- and THAT is barbaric.-
>>
>> > It's not barbaric, just primitive. I wouldn't worry too much about it,
>> > though -- not as long as there are more sane Israelis than loony ones.
>>
>> > Jay
>>
>> Yes, Jay, I stand corrected. =A0Primitive is a much better word. =A0Emoti=
> ons
>> come into play here. =A0As I said, there is a strong visceral reaction
>> against it.-
>
> I agree. On the day Jews start sacrificing at a temple again, they
> will be the laughingstock of the civilized world. I would have as much
> in common with them as I do with the Neturei Karta who support
You can be rest assured that gentiles of all stripes, all denominations
detest Jews so in any case it really makes no major difference. So goyim
will hate us even more. WHO CARES ????
Sarcastic mode on:
We ought to show how cultured we are just like those Germans 68 years
ago with their PhDs in many fields who commanded Einzatzgruppen and who
murdered 2 million Jews in cold blood just in the Ukraine in 8 months.
Beethoven, Bach, Schiller, German gemutlichkeit.
Sarcastic mode off.
> Ahmadinejad and demonstrate for him every time he comes to New York.
>
> I wrote "a temple" and not "THE Temple" because I don't believe that
> the original will rise any time soon. You'd need to get rid of those
> two pesky mosques first. When you do that and all hell breaks loose,
> the Christian Fundies will rejoice that the second coming was about to
> happen, our Jewish UOs would rejoice that the Messiah is about to
> arrive, and the Moslems would rejoice that the prophet had returned
> and that American TV stations would soon be administered by the
> Taliban. The rest of us can just kiss our a**e* goodbye.
>
Josh
> Jay
levi...@gmail.com
Good thinking, Josh. Because the Germans behaved barbarically 70 years
ago, we'll sacrifice cows and sheep in Jerusalem, so the Lord may be
pleased by the smoke and scent. That'll show them.
Jay
> Sarcastic mode off.
>
> > Ahmadinejad and demonstrate for him every time he comes to New York.
>
> > I wrote "a temple" and not "THE Temple" because I don't believe that
> > the original will rise any time soon. You'd need to get rid of those
> > two pesky mosques first. When you do that and all hell breaks loose,
> > the Christian Fundies will rejoice that the second coming was about to
> > happen, our Jewish UOs would rejoice that the Messiah is about to
> > arrive, and the Moslems would rejoice that the prophet had returned
> > and that American TV stations would soon be administered by the
> > Taliban. The rest of us can just kiss our a**e* goodbye.
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> > Jay- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
sheldonlg
>
> You can be rest assured that gentiles of all stripes, all denominations
> detest Jews so in any case it really makes no major difference. So goyim
> will hate us even more. WHO CARES ????
Surely you don't mean this. You must mean:
You can be rest assured that THERE ARE gentiles of all stripes.....
(If you really meant what you said, without my correction to your
statement, then it was an idiotic statement.)
--
Shelly
Don Levey
In the US, the standard Reform line espoused by the URJ is that the
rebuilding of the Temple is NOT desirable (for one reason, because of
the sacrifices). The idea of a messiah as a discrete individual is
discounted; the preference is the belief in a "messianic age". My
experience has been that those Reform Jews who wish for the rebuilding
of the Temple have actively taken this as a belief in spite of the
standard teachings, not because of them. In such a situation, I would
expect someone who has taken that belief upon themselves to have at
least a basic understanding that sacrifices are pert of the expected deal.
Also because of the way this is managed in the URJ's version of Reform
Judaism, I would expect this to be a relatively small number who do so
wish. Small, but non-zero.
Don Levey
spellING checker.
:-)
sheldonlg
ROTFL
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>
>> You can be rest assured that gentiles of all stripes, all denominations
>> detest Jews so in any case it really makes no major difference. So goyim
>> will hate us even more. WHO CARES ????
>
> Surely you don't mean this. You must mean:
>
> You can be rest assured that THERE ARE gentiles of all stripes.....
Scratch a goy, you'll get an antisemite.
Josh
Yisroel Markov
<shel...@giganews.com> said:
He was not "just a medieval doctor," Shelly, or just any rabbi. I
wonder if there's any Jew who's had more books written about him and
his work. (Maybe Karl Marx - but, as my grandmother a"h used to say:
"az okh und vey is such fame!")
In general, our ancestors knew less about the world, but they were no
less intelligent.
[snip]
sheldonlg
> In article <M86dnRGSWeI5LWzU...@giganews.com>, sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> You can be rest assured that gentiles of all stripes, all denominations
>>> detest Jews so in any case it really makes no major difference. So goyim
>>> will hate us even more. WHO CARES ????
>> Surely you don't mean this. You must mean:
>>
>> You can be rest assured that THERE ARE gentiles of all stripes.....
>
>
>
>
> Scratch a goy, you'll get an antisemite.
Well, Josh, you have made an idiotic statement. It is on a par with as
"scratch a Jew and you will get a conniving, greedy, underhanded, Christ
Killer who uses the blood of children to make his matzoh".
I had thought better of you. I am severely disappointed at how stupid
and bigoted you come across.
sheldonlg
I don't doubt his intelligence. It is just that I disagree with him on
a lot.
>
> In general, our ancestors knew less about the world, but they were no
> less intelligent.
Now THAT is an excellent statement.
fla...@verizon.net
On 24-Apr-2009, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> In the US, the standard Reform line espoused by the URJ is that the
> rebuilding of the Temple is NOT desirable (for one reason, because of
> the sacrifices). The idea of a messiah as a discrete individual is
> discounted; the preference is the belief in a "messianic age". My
> experience has been that those Reform Jews who wish for the rebuilding
> of the Temple have actively taken this as a belief in spite of the
> standard teachings, not because of them. In such a situation, I would
> expect someone who has taken that belief upon themselves to have at
> least a basic understanding that sacrifices are pert of the expected deal.
>
> Also because of the way this is managed in the URJ's version of Reform
> Judaism, I would expect this to be a relatively small number who do so
> wish. Small, but non-zero.
I have been given to understand that the Reform Movement
wants everyone to think for him/herself - so I can't see a real
dichotomy in those R who want the Temple & sacrifices. If
anything, it would seem to me that there would be a dichotomy
in having an Official Reform Position (tm).
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
> > > I agree. On the day Jews start sacrificing at a temple again, they
> > > will be the laughingstock of the civilized world. I would have as much
> > > in common with them as I do with the Neturei Karta who support
> >
> > You can be rest assured that gentiles of all stripes, all denominations
> > detest Jews so in any case it really makes no major difference. So goyim
> > will hate us even more. WHO CARES ????
> >
> > Sarcastic mode on:
> >
> > We ought to show how cultured we are just like those Germans 68 years
> > ago with their PhDs in many fields who commanded Einzatzgruppen and who
> > murdered 2 million Jews in cold blood just in the Ukraine in 8 months.
> > Beethoven, Bach, Schiller, German gemutlichkeit.
> >
>
>
> Good thinking, Josh. Because the Germans behaved barbarically 70 years
> ago, we'll sacrifice cows and sheep in Jerusalem, so the Lord may be
> pleased by the smoke and scent. That'll show them.
Wow - way to totally misread a post!!
Susan
levi...@gmail.com
I would not rule out that some Reform Jews would support animal
sacrifices in a rebuilt temple. There is no group think in Reform.
But most Rs I know, at least, and the many more I have met over the
years of being acvtive in the R movement, lead me to believe that the
great majority of Rs would find the idea of animal sacrifices
laughable, if not ridiculous.
Jay
Yussel
> On 23-Apr-2009, "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > "Fiona Abrahami" <fiona@NO_SPAM.intxtdoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > >> > Killing them for food is part of the natural order of things.
>
> > >> Exactly, so what is the problem with sacrificing animals, particularly
> > >> if
> > >> you, or your appointed Cohen eats them?
>
> > > Dad, z"l, always liked a slice of tomato and a few
> > > lettuce leaves with his charred sacrifice :-)
>
> > What! No chrayn?
>
> My brother loves that stuff.
>
> Oddly enough, the charoses I made this year actually
> complemented it - or was complemented by it - we
> haven't decided which.
>
> Susan
>
> or
The charayn in Spain, on the table makes a stain.
j
Don Levey
In theory, yes. In practice, there are boundaries. In theory, one
could be almost completely orthopractic and still be a Reform Jew,.
because Reform is an approach and framework rather than a static set of
beliefs. In practice, though, it can be difficult to me a part of a
Reform congregation while making the personal choice to, say, be shomer
shabbat or lay tefilin.
> If
> anything, it would seem to me that there would be a dichotomy
> in having an Official Reform Position (tm).
>
I understand what you mean. There are, however, official URJ responsa
(http://ccarnet.org/documentsandpositions/responsa/) which outline the
URJ position on various issues. There are also documents which make
clear that while personal autonomy is all well and good, Reform Jews
just don't do X or Y (where that might be, for example, pray for the
restoration of the Temple, or believe in the traditional view of the
messiah).
This doesn't even touch on the idea that the URJ seems to think it
"owns" the concept of Reform Judaism, and treats it like a trademark.
-Don
Don Levey
> In article <M86dnRGSWeI5LWzU...@giganews.com>, sheldonlg <shel...@giganews.com> writes:
>> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>>> You can be rest assured that gentiles of all stripes, all denominations
>>> detest Jews so in any case it really makes no major difference. So goyim
>>> will hate us even more. WHO CARES ????
>> Surely you don't mean this. You must mean:
>>
>> You can be rest assured that THERE ARE gentiles of all stripes.....
>
>
>
>
> Scratch a goy, you'll get an antisemite.
>
>
Josh, with an attitude like that I'm not surprised that this would be
your experience.