Re: Carter apologizes for 'stigmatizing Israel'
fla...@verizon.net
Color me tunned - and cynical.
Think Obama's leaning on him?
Susan
On 21-Dec-2009, "Tilly" <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Former US president offers US Jewish community heartfelt apology for any
> contribution he may have had to Jewish nation's negative image
>
> Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 12.21.09, 22:54 / Israel News
>
>
>
>
> WASHINGTON - Former US President Jimmy Carter on Monday asked for the
> Jewish
> community's forgiveness for any negative stigma he may have caused Israel
> over the years.
>
>
>
>
> Carter, who is not a popular character in Israel, enraged the American
> Jewish community's in the past with various statements made in his book
> "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid."
>
>
>
> In the book, Carter blamed Israel for impeding the Middle East peace
> process
> via settlement construction, further claiming such a policy will lead to
> apartheid.
>
>
>
> The former president also accused Israel of interfering with US efforts to
>
> broker peace in the region.
>
>
>
> "We must recognize Israel's achievements under difficult circumstances,
> even
> as we strive in a positive way to help Israel continue to improve its
> relations with its Arab populations, but we must not permit criticisms for
>
> improvement to stigmatize Israel.
>
>
>
>
> "As I would have noted at Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but which is
> appropriate at any time of the year, I offer an Al Het for any words or
> deeds of mine that may have done so," he said.
>
>
>
> "Al Het" refers to the Yom Kippur prayer asking God forgiveness for sins
> committed.
>
>
>
> Head of the Anti-Defamation League Abraham Foxman welcomed Carter's
> apology,
> saying it marked the beginning of reconciliation.
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3823324,00.html
>
> --
> femai...@gmail.com
cindys
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
On Dec 22, 4:01 pm, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
> (Taken from SCJ)
>
> Color me tunned - and cynical.
> Think Obama's leaning on him?
>
> Susan
>
mm
national level, because they want to get things done, and I vote for
Republicans at the state and local level, because they say that's the
place to get things done.
If Carter gets the Dem nomination, unless there is something unusual
wrong with the Rep, I'd probalby have no trouble voting for him. If I
lived in Georgia. :)
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:01:37 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>(Taken from SCJ)
>
>Color me tunned - and cynical.
>Think Obama's leaning on him?
>
>Susan
>
>On 21-Dec-2009, "Tilly" <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Former US president offers US Jewish community heartfelt apology for any
This is the headline where someone else, some headline writer, calls
it an apology, but I'm still not sure it is. I need more details.
>> contribution he may have had to Jewish nation's negative image
>> Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 12.21.09, 22:54 / Israel News
>>
>> WASHINGTON - Former US President Jimmy Carter on Monday asked for the
>> Jewish
>> community's forgiveness for any negative stigma he may have caused Israel
>> over the years.
He should have referred to "all negative stigma I have caused".
Saying "any" seems to me to mean he's isn't acknowledging that he
caused any, saying "may have caused" completes that.**
If he is still playing the stupid act, that he doesn't know if he did
any harm or not, I'd tell him I don't respond well to the stupid act.
**For folks here who want to give a good apology on some occasion,
take these words too heart.
More in my first post, which hasn't shown up yet, 6 hours later.
>>
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
mm
>(Taken from SCJ)
>
>Color me tunned - and cynical.
>Think Obama's leaning on him?
I wouldn't think Obama has an particular reason to lean on him.
It's hard for me to keep track of things that I don't belivee count
anyhow, so has Carter apologized before, or has he only denied he
caused, or he meant, any harm? I know he has done the last one or
two, but does anyone know if he has apologized at all before.
>Susan
>
>On 21-Dec-2009, "Tilly" <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Former US president offers US Jewish community heartfelt apology for any
>> contribution he may have had to Jewish nation's negative image
>>
>> Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 12.21.09, 22:54 / Israel News
>>
>> WASHINGTON - Former US President Jimmy Carter on Monday asked for the
>> Jewish
>> community's forgiveness for any negative stigma he may have caused Israel
>> over the years.
And for that matter, is asking for forgiveness the same as
apologizing? I don't think so, especially since he uses "any" in
front of negative stigma. He has yet acknowledge he did something
wrong.
>> Carter, who is not a popular character in Israel, enraged the American
>> Jewish community's in the past with various statements made in his book
>> "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid."
>
>> In the book, Carter blamed Israel for impeding the Middle East peace
>> process
>> via settlement construction, further claiming such a policy will lead to
>> apartheid.
>>
>> The former president also accused Israel of interfering with US efforts to
>> broker peace in the region.
This is at best like accusing one football team of interfering with a
viewer'efforts to broker peace with the other football team.
>> "We must recognize Israel's achievements under difficult circumstances,
>> even
>> as we strive in a positive way to help Israel continue to improve its
>> relations with its Arab populations, but we must not permit criticisms for
>> improvement to stigmatize Israel.
Is this still from the book?
He didn't just permit it, he initiated it.
Of if it was what he said recently, to a Jewish group, Why he is using
"we". He's one of the chief offenders, the highest-ranking offender,
and those he's talking to did their best not to permit it.
>> "As I would have noted at Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but which is
>> appropriate at any time of the year, I offer an Al Het for any words or
>> deeds of mine that may have done so," he said.
Al heit is something one pleads to God after he has first made amends
to people, by trying to undo the harm and apologizing where that won't
make things worse (like including in an apology that you gossipped
about someone if he hadn't known about that in the first placce.
So what has Carter done to retitle any future edition of his book and
what has he done to recall and relabel the books already in print?
And why is he speaking to Jews. He should be out talking to non-Jews
telling them, since he won't be willing to say anything stronger, that
he "misled" them with the title of his book, and telling him there is
no apartheid and never was.
Disgusted in Baltimore,
>>
>> "Al Het" refers to the Yom Kippur prayer asking God forgiveness for sins
>> committed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Head of the Anti-Defamation League Abraham Foxman welcomed Carter's
>> apology, saying it marked the beginning of reconciliation.
>>
>> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3823324,00.html
>>
>> --
>> femai...@gmail.com
--
Nick Cramer
> [ . . . ]
Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
Pres. Carter is a snake!
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
Don Levey
> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> [ . . . ]
>
> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
>
> Pres. Carter is a snake!
>
I'd agree there too.
--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to sal...@the-leveys.us
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc
chsw
greenhouse gases and returns his personal carbon to the earth. I
hope that I can forgive him soon.
chsw
mm
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>Nick Cramer wrote:
>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> [ . . . ]
>>
>> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
>>
>I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
But what does it mean if one asks for forgiveness without ever having
apologized.
>
>> Pres. Carter is a snake!
>>
>I'd agree there too.
--
Meir
Don Levey
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:38:51 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>
>> Nick Cramer wrote:
>>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>> [ . . . ]
>>> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
>>>
>> I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
>
> But what does it mean if one asks for forgiveness without ever having
> apologized.
I seem to recall that some Christian theologies have a provision saying
that it's implicit, but I don't really know (nor do I know if it's the
one to which Carter subscribes).
To me, I would say that in this case the apology was within the
statement (though it's not always).
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> But what does it mean if one asks for forgiveness without ever having
> apologized.
That he wants you to stop being mad at
him even while he's not actually SORRY.
Susan (who is reminded of the time I got an
"apology" consisting of "I'm sorry you're upset")
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:01:37 +0000 (UTC), fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >(Taken from SCJ)
> >
> >Color me tunned - and cynical.
> >Think Obama's leaning on him?
>
> I wouldn't think Obama has an particular reason to lean on him.
I was justtrying to come up with a plausible reason -
I knew that it wasn't remorse, or a belated regard for
the truth.
> It's hard for me to keep track of things that I don't belivee count
> anyhow, so has Carter apologized before, or has he only denied he
> caused, or he meant, any harm? I know he has done the last one or
> two, but does anyone know if he has apologized at all before.
He has backtracked, but never anything this solid.
> >> WASHINGTON - Former US President Jimmy Carter on Monday asked for the
> >> Jewish
> >> community's forgiveness for any negative stigma he may have caused
> >> Israel
> >> over the years.
>
> And for that matter, is asking for forgiveness the same as
> apologizing?
Good catch!!
> I don't think so, especially since he uses "any" in
> front of negative stigma. He has yet acknowledge he did something
> wrong.
Well, to be as nit-picky as possible, he has acknowledged
that *something* was wrong - he never specifies what.
> >> The former president also accused Israel of interfering with US efforts
> >> to
> >> broker peace in the region.
>
> This is at best like accusing one football team of interfering with a
> viewer'efforts to broker peace with the other football team.
To be polite, yeah.
> >> "We must recognize Israel's achievements under difficult circumstances,
> >> even
> >> as we strive in a positive way to help Israel continue to improve its
> >> relations with its Arab populations, but we must not permit criticisms
> >> for
> >> improvement to stigmatize Israel.
>
> Is this still from the book?
> He didn't just permit it, he initiated it.
Oh, details, details! (rolling eyes)
>
> Of if it was what he said recently, to a Jewish group,
Ye s- I believe that this is actually towhat the article
refers - turns out his grandson is running for public
office in a Jewish area!!
> Why he is using
> "we". He's one of the chief offenders, the highest-ranking offender,
> and those he's talking to did their best not to permit it.
When you spread the blame, the burden is lighter - and
when you get people to believe that "everyone is doing it",
then it looks to them as though you didn't do something
that bad.
Or so he hopes.
> >> "As I would have noted at Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but which is
> >> appropriate at any time of the year, I offer an Al Het for any words or
> >> deeds of mine that may have done so," he said.
>
> Al heit is something one pleads to God after he has first made amends
> to people, by trying to undo the harm and apologizing where that won't
> make things worse (like including in an apology that you gossipped
> about someone if he hadn't known about that in the first placce.
I can't tell you how furious & disgusted I am by his use of
that prayer *anyway* - presumptuous, arrogant - CHUTZPAH.
You can tell how depsicable he is by the way that his apology
not only doesn;t make it better - it makes it worse.
> So what has Carter done to retitle any future edition of his book and
> what has he done to recall and relabel the books already in print?
THANK YOU.
> And why is he speaking to Jews.
Because he knows he wronged us, and now he wants
something out of a small section of us.
> He should be out talking to non-Jews
> telling them, since he won't be willing to say anything stronger, that
> he "misled" them with the title of his book, and telling him there is
> no apartheid and never was.
He has already said that it "wasn't strictly-speaking
apartheid (WTTE)" and that he only used the word to
get attention, but he didn't say it strongly enough.
And he never will, because he believes the lie that he
was trying to spread.
> Disgusted in Baltimore,
As well you should be!
Susan
mm
>Till posted:
>>
>> WASHINGTON - Former US President Jimmy Carter on Monday asked for the
>> Jewish
>> community's forgiveness for any negative stigma he may have caused Israel
>> over the years.
One reason this whole process seems reasonable to Carter, I think, is
that he's lived a long time in the political world where enormous
insults** are forgiven with very little effort often on the part the
insulter.
**Although not those that cost people one cares about their lives.
A specific example presents itself this week. A blue-dog
(conservative) Democrat from Alabama announced a day or two ago that
he's switching to the Republican party. He's also a physician, an
oncologist, and when he ran for office in 2008, the national
Republican party ran a commerical in his district opposing him which
said that he was "warehousing patients.... [keeping them alive] jmust
so that he could collect more fees" and something a little worse that
I can't remember. An enormous insult, about his medical career and
his honesty, and I would hope, not true.
Yet he just joined the Republican party, and I doubt he even expects
them to retract what they said.
Carter has lived in the world of what's feasible for a long time.
Plus there may be some Xian thing that people are obliged to forgive
those who apologize. (Of course afaik he didn't.) Or maybe it is
those who ask for forgiveness. I can hardly believe this is really
Xian policy, given their complaining about hypocrites. Seriously, I
think there is more to it that gets ignored because in the sermons
they only consider cases where the person asking forgiveness is really
repentant, sincere, and even contrite. I don't think most Xian
sermons or Bible clases address political apologies or the apologies
of liars.
This is not that unusual. The whole US court system, while it
definitely allows the trier of fact to determine that any or all
witnesses are lying, still seems to work on the initial assumption
that all are telling the truth. Afaict, so does the Jewish legal
system.
Nick Cramer
> Nick Cramer wrote:
> > mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >> [ . . . ]
> >
> > Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
> >
> I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden on
the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones own error.
> > Pres. Carter is a snake!
> >
> I'd agree there too.
Sad proof to me that being intelligent doesn't mean your smart. <sigh>
Nick Cramer
While a man lives, he has the opportunity to see the error of his ways and
thereby improve. My hope is that the dust of ignorance be lifted from his
eyes before his demise.
Nick Cramer
Rings rather hollow, doesn't it!
Don Levey
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>> Nick Cramer wrote:
>>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>> [ . . . ]
>>> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
>>>
>> I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
>
> I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden on
> the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones own error.
>
Why would anyone ask for forgiveness for something they felt wasn't
wrong in the first place? I don't understand that.
Of course, in this particular situation, we've not addressed whether the
apology was at all sincere, only that it does or does not exist.
mm
<Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>Nick Cramer wrote:
>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>> Nick Cramer wrote:
>>>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>> [ . . . ]
>>>> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
>>>>
>>> I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
>>
>> I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden on
>> the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones own error.
>>
I thought you too were saying the same thing, in different ways, but I
decided to wait and see what others had to say, especially you, Don.
>Why would anyone ask for forgiveness for something they felt wasn't
>wrong in the first place?
It's simple. They want forgiveness even though they feel that have
done nothing wrong. If you had done nothing wrong but someone you
cared about or had to deal with was mad at you, would you not want
forgiveness?
It's different from but similar to "Mistakes were made". People,
bureaucrats, etc. want to be forgiven but don't want to admit they
made a mistake. May think someone else did but don't want to name
someone and antagonize him.
Aren't you married? Isn't the classic line about how husbands have to
learn to say, "I'm sorry" no matter what? Even if it's not true every
day, and even if it's true in reverse as often as the husband having
to say it, how would you handle it if you had done nothing wrong and
your wife was mad at you? Just let it fester? Convince her that
she's wrong in being mad at you? How are you going to do that?
Has Jimmy Carter, l'havdil, convinced us he did nothing wrong?
>I don't understand that.
>Of course, in this particular situation, we've not addressed whether the
>apology was at all sincere, only that it does or does not exist.
Right. I don't think it was sincere.
Abe Foxman suggests Carter had an epiphany and that may have led to a
*start* of reconciliation. Foxman probably keeps track of things, and
I presume he's honest, for the sake of honesty and because if screwed
up it would make him and his/our cause look bad. So this implies
that this is the biggest effort Carter has made so far, and like I
suggested, up until now, he's only denied that what he said was bad or
that he meant anything bad by what he said. That's my recollection
but I don't keep good track of things like this. But I'll rely on
Foxman and I too think it would take an epiphany, and I don't think he
had one. If he had one, what he did and said would have been a lot
better and wouldn't have supported all the objections I made in other
posts.
Nick Cramer
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> >Nick Cramer wrote:
> >> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >>> [ . . . ]
> >>
> >> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
> >>
> >I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
>
> But what does it mean if one asks for forgiveness without ever having
> apologized.
Exactly!
Nick Cramer
> Nick Cramer wrote:
> > Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> >> Nick Cramer wrote:
> >>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >>>> [ . . . ]
> >>> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
> >>>
> >> I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
> >
> > I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden
> > on the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones own
> > error.
> >
>
> Why would anyone ask for forgiveness for something they felt wasn't
> wrong in the first place? I don't understand that.
Gives one a politically clear conscience. "They forgave me. I'm clean!"
> Of course, in this particular situation, we've not addressed whether the
> apology was at all sincere, only that it does or does not exist.
A sincere politician?
Don Levey
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 03:53:02 +0000 (UTC), Don Levey
> <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>
>> Nick Cramer wrote:
>>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
>>>> Nick Cramer wrote:
>>>>> mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>>> [ . . . ]
>>>>> Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
>>>>>
>>>> I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
>>> I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden on
>>> the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones own error.
>>>
>
> I thought you too were saying the same thing, in different ways, but I
> decided to wait and see what others had to say, especially you, Don.
>
>> Why would anyone ask for forgiveness for something they felt wasn't
>> wrong in the first place?
>
> It's simple. They want forgiveness even though they feel that have
> done nothing wrong. If you had done nothing wrong but someone you
> cared about or had to deal with was mad at you, would you not want
> forgiveness?
>
was part of it, even if it was insincere. More likely, in my opinion,
is that he honestly *thinks* he is sincere and doesn't understand the
problem in the first place.
> It's different from but similar to "Mistakes were made". People,
> bureaucrats, etc. want to be forgiven but don't want to admit they
> made a mistake. May think someone else did but don't want to name
> someone and antagonize him.
>
One can apologise without believing that they made a mistake. That's
part of the problem.
> Aren't you married? Isn't the classic line about how husbands have to
> learn to say, "I'm sorry" no matter what? Even if it's not true every
> day, and even if it's true in reverse as often as the husband having
> to say it, how would you handle it if you had done nothing wrong and
> your wife was mad at you? Just let it fester? Convince her that
> she's wrong in being mad at you? How are you going to do that?
>
I learned to say "yes, dear" - and have avoided the necessity of
apologising for things unless it's actually necessary.
> Has Jimmy Carter, l'havdil, convinced us he did nothing wrong?
>
No. I think he doesn't fully comprehend what he has done wrong.
>> I don't understand that.
>
>> Of course, in this particular situation, we've not addressed whether the
>> apology was at all sincere, only that it does or does not exist.
>
> Right. I don't think it was sincere.
>
I think that it's like the situation where someone says something
untrue, but honestly believes it. The statement is false, but is it a
lie? Carter's statements were provocative, and untrue, but he believes
them. I think he's apologising/asking forgiveness for the way in which
he expressed the opinions which haven't really changed.
> Abe Foxman suggests Carter had an epiphany and that may have led to a
> *start* of reconciliation. Foxman probably keeps track of things, and
> I presume he's honest, for the sake of honesty and because if screwed
> up it would make him and his/our cause look bad. So this implies
> that this is the biggest effort Carter has made so far, and like I
> suggested, up until now, he's only denied that what he said was bad or
> that he meant anything bad by what he said. That's my recollection
> but I don't keep good track of things like this. But I'll rely on
> Foxman and I too think it would take an epiphany, and I don't think he
> had one. If he had one, what he did and said would have been a lot
> better and wouldn't have supported all the objections I made in other
> posts.
I hope that Foxman is correct that this is the start of an engagement.
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Dec-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> > Nick Cramer wrote:
> > > mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > >> [ . . . ]
> > >
> > > Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
> > >
> > I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
>
> I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden on
> the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones own
> error.
Oh, what a brilliant observation.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 24-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Abe Foxman suggests Carter had an epiphany and that may have led to a
> *start* of reconciliation. Foxman probably keeps track of things, and
> I presume he's honest, for the sake of honesty and because if screwed
> up it would make him and his/our cause look bad. So this implies
> that this is the biggest effort Carter has made so far, and like I
> suggested, up until now, he's only denied that what he said was bad or
> that he meant anything bad by what he said. That's my recollection
> but I don't keep good track of things like this. But I'll rely on
> Foxman and I too think it would take an epiphany, and I don't think he
> had one. If he had one, what he did and said would have been a lot
> better and wouldn't have supported all the objections I made in other
> posts.
Foxman isn't stupid enough to say the truth - that this
is just a political ploy on Carter's part - because that
would only give antisemites more ammo about how
stubborn/touchy/etc. Jews are.
Susan
mm
You're absolutely right.
>would only give antisemites more ammo about how
>stubborn/touchy/etc. Jews are.
>
>Susan
--
mm
I was listening to an episode of Dragnet tonight, from the 40's or
50's, originally broadcast on radio, and some bad guy was holed up in
someone's house, and Friday and Gannon were investigating, and the
woman who owned the home or next door was upset because they were
stepping on her flowers. And she was complaining at length. And
finally Gannon said, "If we've stepped on yoru flowers, we're sorry."
I didn't realize that sort of semi-apology went back that far. Of
course they stepped on her flowers, all he had to do was look down and
he could see it. (At least if they weren't in a radio studio he could
and the concept of the show is that they're not in a radio studio.)
Nick Cramer
Why, thank you, Susan. You are too kind.
fla...@verizon.net
On 28-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >Foxman isn't stupid enough to say the truth - that this
> >is just a political ploy on Carter's part - because that
>
> You're absolutely right.
>
And rarely more disguted to be so.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 28-Dec-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> > On 23-Dec-2009, Nick Cramer <n_cr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> > > > Nick Cramer wrote:
> > > > > mm <mm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > > > >> [ . . . ]
> > > > >
> > > > > Asking for forgiveness is not the same as apologizing.
> > > > >
> > > > I would agree - asking for forgiveness is (to me) the step beyond.
> > >
> > > I would say the opposite, Don. Asking for forgiveness puts the burden
> > > on the one(s) who have been offended. Apologizing acknowledges ones
> > > own error.
> >
> > Oh, what a brilliant observation.
>
> Why, thank you, Susan. You are too kind.
Actually, I thought I was just being truthful!
I am certainly grateful for the insight - I didn't
even think to see it that way.
Susan
Nick Cramer
I've sincerely apologized for many things in my life, Susan. In only one
case has a person chosen not to grant me foregiveness. I know that I
wronged that person. I know that my apology was heartfelt. I deeply regret
that they are unable to find foregiveness in their heart. Not for me,
although I will always feel their pain, but for them.