KLP Herbs and Spices
cindys
Pesach. Every year, I think to myself, it would be really great to
have some KLP oregano, but I have never seen KLP oregano in Wegmans
(or any other local supermarket or shop that carries KLP items). My
younger son has also asked me for KLP crushed or ground red pepper.
To cut to the chase, I was just at the site for Aviglatt (online
kosher store), and I saw that they carry these two items Gefen brand
KLP. However, I noticed that there are a number of other KLP Gefen
brand herbs/spices (like cumin for example) that are kitniyot. So, my
question is this: Is it okay (for Ashkenazim) to purchase the non-
kitniyot Gefen KLP herbs/spices like oregano? (My concern is that they
may have been bottled on the same equipment as the kitniyot). Or is it
okay to rely on batel (nullification) when it comes to kitniyot on
Pesach?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Adelle
easier - freezing.
When cranberries are in season, I buy a big bag and throw it in the freezer.
And when harvesting the herbs I grow at the end of the year, I dry them and
then put a bit of each into Ziploc bags and freeze them. Haven't found many
other ingredients I've longed for and not been able to find easily.
Adelle
"cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:e5a3fc63-3e2b-4465...@q12g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Patty
I bought Pereg cumin labeled KLP at my store and it's on the Aviglatt
site. It doesn't say anything about kitniyot on the container or on
the site. They have a bunch of other stuff and next year I might buy
them online because it looks like they have a bunch of stuff I can use
in my India style cooking. They're on the Allinkosher site too. I
also bought some Lieber's including oregano, also not labeled
kitniyot. Something I'm missing?
cindys
Yes. Pereg brand is from Israel. Any time you buy something KLP from
Israel, you need to consider the possibility that it contains
kitniyot, as most Israelis are Sephardim, and many Israeli KLP
products contain kitniyot. Dr. Josh used to complain that it was
difficult for him (as an Ashkenazic Jew) to find kitniyot-free KLP
products in Israel. Israeli Ashkenazim rely on heavily on Manischewitz
(according to Dr. Josh). Cumin is kitniyot. And dry mustard/mustard
seed is too. As an Ashkenazic Jew, I cannot use these seasonings on
Pesach. So, my question is, do I need to be concerned about a
permitted herb, like oregano, if it has been bottled on the same
equipment as the kitniyot? I suspect it's not a problem because as an
Ashkenazic Jew, I can eat dinner at the home of a Sephardic Jew during
Pesach, even if that person eats kitniyot. The only restriction is
that the Sephardic Jew may not serve me products that contain kitniyot
and the plates need to be clean (as in soap and water clean, not
rekashered for Pesach clean).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>Yes. Pereg brand is from Israel. Any time you buy something KLP from
>Israel, you need to consider the possibility that it contains
>kitniyot, as most Israelis are Sephardim, and many Israeli KLP
>products contain kitniyot. Dr. Josh used to complain that it was
>difficult for him (as an Ashkenazic Jew) to find kitniyot-free KLP
>products in Israel. Israeli Ashkenazim rely on heavily on Manischewitz
>(according to Dr. Josh). Cumin is kitniyot. And dry mustard/mustard
>seed is too. As an Ashkenazic Jew, I cannot use these seasonings on
>Pesach. So, my question is, do I need to be concerned about a
>permitted herb, like oregano, if it has been bottled on the same
>equipment as the kitniyot? I suspect it's not a problem because as an
>Ashkenazic Jew, I can eat dinner at the home of a Sephardic Jew during
>Pesach, even if that person eats kitniyot. The only restriction is
>that the Sephardic Jew may not serve me products that contain kitniyot
>and the plates need to be clean (as in soap and water clean, not
>rekashered for Pesach clean).
OK, I have to go there :-) I know this doesn't answer your question, but I
would ask, why on earth would you NOT be able to eat the oregano on
Pesach?
Even given that you have a custom not to eat "other kinds of flour" such
as ground legumes and therefore choose not to eat cumin or mustard -
what's that got to do with oregano?
Don't some people hold that even corn syrup is OK, because it's been
changed in format? (that's what the rabbi on the package of KLP candy
claims, anyway)
If there were particles of, I don't know, pork dust floating in your
oregano - wouldn't that be subject to nullification anyway? Now I realize
people don't nullify with regards to chometz - but cumin isn't chometz.
In my view (and I realize what that's worth in these matters) one should
be as scrupulous as possible to avoid unnecessary chumras with regards to
actual halacha - let alone extending a "minhag shtut" that should be
eliminated, not extended.
--s
--
sheldonlg
When I learned that the Sephardi allowed rice, I changed to Sephardi. :-)
--
Shelly
mm
I've never heard of, for example, OU KE, like there is OU DE (dairy
equipment).
The prohibition on kitniyos is only rabbinic, not d'oraita like mixing
milk and meat, so my guess is that there is no problem with kitniyos
equipment.
Too late to order for this year anyhow, and plenty of time to ask OU
or a rabbi before next year.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
cindys
snip
>
> OK, I have to go there :-) I know this doesn't answer your question, but I
> would ask, why on earth would you NOT be able to eat the oregano on
> Pesach?
If it's mixed with particles of ground mustard, for example.
>
> Even given that you have a custom not to eat "other kinds of flour" such
> as ground legumes and therefore choose not to eat cumin or mustard -
> what's that got to do with oregano?
It's not about the oregano itself. Certainly, fresh oregano would be
fine. The question arises if dried oregano is being bottled in the
same factory with the mustard seed and cumin and the equipment is not
cleaned properly and some of the mustard seed and cumin inadvertently
gets mixed into the oregano.
>
> Don't some people hold that even corn syrup is OK, because it's been
> changed in format?
People who eat kitniyot on Pesach hold that corn syrup is okay. You
may be thinking about the peanut oil argument where Ashkenazim used to
use peanut oil on Pesach (now they don't), because it was a peanut
derivative and not the peanut itself. That said, AFAIK, Ashkenazim
have never held that eating foods made with corn syrup is acceptable
on Pesach. Even when I was a little girl (in the days when people kept
kosher by reading lists of ingredients on labels), products made with
corn syrup were always forbidden to Ashkenazim on Pesach.
>(that's what the rabbi on the package of KLP candy
> claims, anyway)
I thought he claimed the KLP candy was KLP *for people who eat
kitniyot on Pesach.* Avoiding corn syrup on Pesach is not a newfangled
chumrah. Even 50 years ago, Ashkenazim wouldn't eat corn derivatives
on Pesach.
>
> If there were particles of, I don't know, pork dust floating in your
> oregano - wouldn't that be subject to nullification anyway?
Yes. Unless I could actually taste the pork in the oregano.
>Now I realize
> people don't nullify with regards to chometz - but cumin isn't chometz.
Agreed. Cumin is kitniyot, and that was the point of my question. If
you look back to my original post in this thread, my question was
"Isn't kitniyot subject to batel (nullification)?" My whole point in
initiating this thread was in the hopes that someone (like Moshe or
Harry or Henry or Yisroel) would respond, "Yes, kitniyot is subject to
batel, so you can feel free to use KLP non-kitniyot bottled herbs
without having to worry that they may be contaminated."
>
> In my view (and I realize what that's worth in these matters) one should
> be as scrupulous as possible to avoid unnecessary chumras
I'm not looking for chumras, but sometimes I have dinner guests who
might not want to eat KLP foods that may be contaminated with
kitniyot.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> On Apr 22, 12:19 pm, "Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote:
snip
>
> > be as scrupulous as possible to avoid unnecessary chumras
>
> I'm not looking for chumras, but sometimes I have dinner guests who
> might not want to eat KLP foods that may be contaminated with
> kitniyot.
------
Or maybe OTOH, I just think too much. Okay, I've decided that Gefen
oregano and Gefen thyme are both on the to-buy list for next year. Too
bad they don't have any KLP sage.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
There is actually batel (nullification) with milk and meat.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>I
>> would ask, why on earth would you NOT be able to eat the oregano on
>> Pesach?
>If it's mixed with particles of ground mustard, for example.
See below - my point is that oregano with some small amount of ground
mustard isn't ground mustard.
>It's not about the oregano itself. Certainly, fresh oregano would be
>fine. The question arises if dried oregano is being bottled in the
>same factory with the mustard seed and cumin and the equipment is not
>cleaned properly and some of the mustard seed and cumin inadvertently
>gets mixed into the oregano.
I understand - but my point was regarding nullification, but not even
nullification since that's a halachic premise and kitniyot is
extra-halachic. So I'm questioning why it's even relevant - the point I'm
trying to make in a rather absurd way is what if someone asked about
whether you can use a pot for milk that had previously been used for
oregano. (the response to which would be "why on earth couldn't you? who
cares if there are traces of oregano, there's no halachic prohibition of
any kind against mixing milk and oregano")
>>
>> Don't some people hold that even corn syrup is OK, because it's been
>> changed in format?
>People who eat kitniyot on Pesach hold that corn syrup is okay. You
>may be thinking about the peanut oil argument where Ashkenazim used to
>use peanut oil on Pesach (now they don't), because it was a peanut
>derivative and not the peanut itself. That said, AFAIK, Ashkenazim
>have never held that eating foods made with corn syrup is acceptable
>on Pesach. Even when I was a little girl (in the days when people kept
>kosher by reading lists of ingredients on labels), products made with
>corn syrup were always forbidden to Ashkenazim on Pesach.
A cursory look at some Web sites would indicate it's more complicated than
that. Anyway, if peanut oil were permitted then surely corn oil would be
as well, for the same reason?
> >(that's what the rabbi on the package of KLP candy
>> claims, anyway)
>I thought he claimed the KLP candy was KLP *for people who eat
>kitniyot on Pesach.* Avoiding corn syrup on Pesach is not a newfangled
>chumrah. Even 50 years ago, Ashkenazim wouldn't eat corn derivatives
>on Pesach.
Actually, no - he very clearly says it's permitted for both Sephardim and
Ashkenazim. I don't have the package in front of me so can't tell you who
said it, or what certifying authority he represents. IIRC he's relying on
the "shemen kitniyos" argument.
>>
>> If there were particles of, I don't know, pork dust floating in your
>> oregano - wouldn't that be subject to nullification anyway?
>Yes. Unless I could actually taste the pork in the oregano.
>>Now I realize
>> people don't nullify with regards to chometz - but cumin isn't chometz.
>Agreed. Cumin is kitniyot, and that was the point of my question. If
>you look back to my original post in this thread, my question was
>"Isn't kitniyot subject to batel (nullification)?" My whole point in
>initiating this thread was in the hopes that someone (like Moshe or
>Harry or Henry or Yisroel) would respond, "Yes, kitniyot is subject to
>batel, so you can feel free to use KLP non-kitniyot bottled herbs
>without having to worry that they may be contaminated."
I would suggest that it can't be subject to nullification, since that's a
halachic standard and kitniyot has nothing (directly) to do with halacha.
Instead, it's simply irrelevant IMHO - if it's a jar of oregano, then it's
a jar of oregano, and NOT a jar of mustard seed or cumin. That is, "we
don't eat mustard seed" means just that, nothing more and nothing less.
>>
>> In my view (and I realize what that's worth in these matters) one should
>> be as scrupulous as possible to avoid unnecessary chumras
>I'm not looking for chumras, but sometimes I have dinner guests who
>might not want to eat KLP foods that may be contaminated with
>kitniyot.
But didn't you say one is permitted to eat at the home of someone who
actually does eat kitniyot, as long as you don't eat the kitniyot
yourself? Doesn't that answer your question in and of itself?
--s
--
Giorgies E Kepipesiom
>
> When I learned that the Sephardi allowed rice, I changed to Sephardi. :-)
>
smiley. It's all a joke. Okay, never mind.
GEK
pointing out that Sapharadi allow beans and peas on Pesach, but some,
such as Morroccans, do not allow rice. And in any event, for
Sapharadim the rice, or beans, or peas have to be picked over
individually by hand before Pesach to ensure by actual inspection that
no kernals of wheat or other grain contaminate the lot.
Steve Goldfarb
>>Agreed. Cumin is kitniyot, and that was the point of my question. If
>>you look back to my original post in this thread, my question was
>>"Isn't kitniyot subject to batel (nullification)?" My whole point in
>>initiating this thread was in the hopes that someone (like Moshe or
>>Harry or Henry or Yisroel) would respond, "Yes, kitniyot is subject to
>>batel, so you can feel free to use KLP non-kitniyot bottled herbs
>>without having to worry that they may be contaminated."
BTW, I know this isn't a primary source, but the OU says kitniyot is
"batel berov" and thus "If one accidentally added cornstarch to Passover
gravy, it may be consumed if the cornstarch constitutes less than fifty
pecent of the mixture." So if this is true, clearly the oregano is no
problem.
--s
--
W. Baker
: On Apr 22, 12:19?pm, "Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote:
: snip
: >
: > OK, I have to go there :-) I know this doesn't answer your question, but I
: > would ask, why on earth would you NOT be able to eat the oregano on
: > Pesach?
: If it's mixed with particles of ground mustard, for example.
Battel should do the trick as it is not chametz, and would not be labelled
as KLP if it were chametz evenor Sephardim. Only chamatz cannot be
battel. : >
: It's not about the oregano itself. Certainly, fresh oregano would be
: fine. The question arises if dried oregano is being bottled in the
: same factory with the mustard seed and cumin and the equipment is not
: cleaned properly and some of the mustard seed and cumin inadvertently
: gets mixed into the oregano.
: >
: > Don't some people hold that even corn syrup is OK, because it's been
: > changed in format?
: People who eat kitniyot on Pesach hold that corn syrup is okay. You
: may be thinking about the peanut oil argument where Ashkenazim used to
: use peanut oil on Pesach (now they don't), because it was a peanut
: derivative and not the peanut itself.
For amny Orthodox peanut oil would be totally acceptable( like gebrocts
cakes, etc) if it were available uner supervision, for KLP. Since the
companies are foing for the biggest customer base they no longer certify
such products. I remember eating those Pecther KLP matzo meat ssponge anc
nut cakes in my KLP house as a child. Peanut oil, rather than the rather
noxious cottonseed oil was the oil for Pesach. It s still KLP for many,
many Orthodox Jews, though not all, so we all have to do without .
: I thought he claimed the KLP candy was KLP *for people who eat
: kitniyot on Pesach.* Avoiding corn syrup on Pesach is not a newfangled
: chumrah. Even 50 years ago, Ashkenazim wouldn't eat corn derivatives
: on Pesach.
: >
: > If there were particles of, I don't know, pork dust floating in your
: > oregano - wouldn't that be subject to nullification anyway?
: Yes. Unless I could actually taste the pork in the oregano.
: >Now I realize
: > people don't nullify with regards to chometz - but cumin isn't chometz.
: Agreed. Cumin is kitniyot, and that was the point of my question. If
: you look back to my original post in this thread, my question was
: "Isn't kitniyot subject to batel (nullification)?" My whole point in
: initiating this thread was in the hopes that someone (like Moshe or
: Harry or Henry or Yisroel) would respond, "Yes, kitniyot is subject to
: batel, so you can feel free to use KLP non-kitniyot bottled herbs
: without having to worry that they may be contaminated."
: >
: > In my view (and I realize what that's worth in these matters) one should
: > be as scrupulous as possible to avoid unnecessary chumras
: I'm not looking for chumras, but sometimes I have dinner guests who
: might not want to eat KLP foods that may be contaminated with
: kitniyot.
: Best regards,
: ---Cindy S.
It just is not chametz so can be battel, and they should know that!
Wendy Baker-who got grapesed oil for this year, avoidng the need to eat
cottonseed oil from those oversprated cotton bolls.
: >with regards to
cindys
> In <96a590b7-9cae-4ef8-b98e-2746b9550...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
snip
>
> A cursory look at some Web sites would indicate it's more complicated than
> that. Anyway, if peanut oil were permitted then surely corn oil would be
> as well, for the same reason?
One would think. But for whatever reason, peanut oil was OU-certified
KLP until a few years ago, but products containing corn oil/syrup
never were (or haven't been for 50+ years at least).
>
> > >(that's what the rabbi on the package of KLP candy
> >> claims, anyway)
> >I thought he claimed the KLP candy was KLP *for people who eat
> >kitniyot on Pesach.* Avoiding corn syrup on Pesach is not a newfangled
> >chumrah. Even 50 years ago, Ashkenazim wouldn't eat corn derivatives
> >on Pesach.
>
> Actually, no - he very clearly says it's permitted for both Sephardim and
> Ashkenazim.
Then let's call that a "da'as yachid" (a minority opinion) because I
challenge you (or anyone reading this) to cite any respected Orthodox
posek (halachic decisor) who agrees with him. I'm not arguing that R'
Scheinberg (the rabbi who supervises the KLP corn syrup marshmallows)
is wrong. I'm just making the point that at the present time, any
Ashkenazic Jew who would knowingly purchase or eat Pesach foods with
corn syrup as an ingredient would be putting himself outside the pale.
I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just saying it's the reality. It's
a custom that has effectively become a law. This is not the same as
eating gebrokts (where some people are gebrokts-eaters and other
people are non-gebrokts-eater and both are okay).
>I don't have the package in front of me so can't tell you who
> said it, or what certifying authority he represents.
AFAIK, he represents only himself.
>IIRC he's relying on
> the "shemen kitniyos" argument.
>
snip
>
> I would suggest that it [kitniyot] can't be subject to nullification, since that's a
> halachic standard and kitniyot has nothing (directly) to do with halacha.
You're absolutely right.
> Instead, it's simply irrelevant IMHO - if it's a jar of oregano, then it's
> a jar of oregano, and NOT a jar of mustard seed or cumin. That is, "we
> don't eat mustard seed" means just that, nothing more and nothing less.
>
>
>
> >> In my view (and I realize what that's worth in these matters) one should
> >> be as scrupulous as possible to avoid unnecessary chumras
> >I'm not looking for chumras, but sometimes I have dinner guests who
> >might not want to eat KLP foods that may be contaminated with
> >kitniyot.
>
> But didn't you say one is permitted to eat at the home of someone who
> actually does eat kitniyot, as long as you don't eat the kitniyot
> yourself?
Yes. What I meant was if I were to actually serve my guests something
that was seasoned with the KLP oregano as an ingredient (I wasn't
referring to simply having the KLP oregano in my kitchen so my kids
could put it on matzah pizza, just as I don't serve my guests
asparagus tips, but I eat them myself). But, as you say, there's
nothing wrong with serving a dish seasoned with the KLP oregano (even
if there is a microscopic amount of mustard seed mixed in). If I were
serving a dish that I actually seasoned with mustard seed or cumin,
that would be a whole different story.
Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
Surely you jest. Picking over the rice a kernel at a time by hand? Who
is that meshiga?
--
Shelly
cindys
It's not a jest.
> Who
> is that meshiga?
All the Sephardim I know. They pour out the rice onto a plate and
check it over to ensure they don't see anything that isn't rice. If
they do, they pick it out. I don't see anything so crazy about this.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
meir b.
(1) Cumin is not kitniyot. According to the OU website, there
are two brands of cumin which are kosher for Pesach; they require the
OU-P to appear on the container.
(2) Kitniyot, unlike chametz, may be owned on Pesach, and benefit
other than ingestion is permitted. Thus, one may feed kitniyot to
one's animals.
(3) Kitniyot is bateil berov -- if it constitutes less than 50%
of a mixture, the mixture is permitted. However, that applies after
the fact. One is not permitted intentionally to nullify kitniot, even
in far lesser amounts. Many medications on the various kosher for
Pesach lists contain kitniyot, as the tablets and pills contain corn
starch.
(4) There are those who are stringent in using kitniyot
derivatives, and those who are more lenient. When I was growing up,
the most common oil for Pesach was Nutola, which was peanut oil, and
whose manufacturer, named Zupnik, was affiliated with Satmar. My
family never used it, but it was used in many of the more stringent
homes. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, peanuts themselves were not
considered kitniyot in pre-WWII Europe. Today, however, it has become
universally recognized as kitniyot, and the kashrut-certifying
agencies will not certify any product containing it or any kitniyot
derivative, since they want their certifications to be accepted
universally. (Hence, none of the generally accepted agencies will
certify any meat product unless it is glatt, even though prior to WWII
there was virtually no glatt meat available, and most observant Jews
ate non-glatt.)
(5) The Brisker are of the opinion that cottonseed oil is a
kitniyot oil.
Meir B.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Apr 22, 8:31 pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>> On 4/22/2011 6:33 PM, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>>
>> > On Apr 22, 3:45 pm, sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> When I learned that the Sephardi allowed rice, I changed to Sephardi. :-)
>>
>> > And before you learnt that, you avoided rice? Oh, I see! There is a
>> > smiley. It's all a joke. Okay, never mind.
>>
>> > GEK
>> > pointing out that Sapharadi allow beans and peas on Pesach, but some,
>> > such as Morroccans, do not allow rice. And in any event, for
>> > Sapharadim the rice, or beans, or peas have to be picked over
>> > individually by hand before Pesach to ensure by actual inspection that
>> > no kernals of wheat or other grain contaminate the lot.
>>
>> Surely you jest. Picking over the rice a kernel at a time by hand?
>
>It's not a jest.
>
>> Who
>> is that meshiga?
It's really incredible that someone who would let Jews die for lack of
one person's statement that a third person is a Jew, even though all
the other O Jews and most C Jews, and all the Israeli secular Jews
still won't think so**, thinks it's silliness to be strict in obeying
a commandment straight from the written Torah.
What's silliness, and far far worse, is putting a signed certificate
above human life, fwiw above Jews' lives.
And then what is balderdash is taking Jewish observance done for good
reason, and ridiculing that, instead or ridiculing his own attitude
and his own words.
Someone send the poster a mirror.
**And even though they the proposed law in question wouldn't actually
allow invalid conversions in Israel or stop them from occurring
outside of Israel. The proposed law has one advantage: It showed the
nature of the poster.
>All the Sephardim I know. They pour out the rice onto a plate and
>check it over to ensure they don't see anything that isn't rice. If
>they do, they pick it out. I don't see anything so crazy about this.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
>
>
--
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Apr 22, 2:41 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:14:40 +0000 (UTC), cindys
>>
>>
>>
>> <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> >My family really likes to make matzah pizza and matzah lasagna for
>> >Pesach. Every year, I think to myself, it would be really great to
>> >have some KLP oregano, but I have never seen KLP oregano in Wegmans
>> >(or any other local supermarket or shop that carries KLP items). My
>> >younger son has also asked me for KLP crushed or ground red pepper.
>>
>> >To cut to the chase, I was just at the site for Aviglatt (online
>> >kosher store), and I saw that they carry these two items Gefen brand
>> >KLP. However, I noticed that there are a number of other KLP Gefen
>> >brand herbs/spices (like cumin for example) that are kitniyot. So, my
>> >question is this: Is it okay (for Ashkenazim) to purchase the non-
>> >kitniyot Gefen KLP herbs/spices like oregano? (My concern is that they
>> >may have been bottled on the same equipment as the kitniyot). Or is it
>> >okay to rely on batel (nullification) when it comes to kitniyot on
>> >Pesach?
>> >Thanks in advance.
>> >Best regards,
>> >---Cindy S.
>>
>> I've never heard of, for example, OU KE, like there is OU DE (dairy
>> equipment).
After I had more time to think about it: This sentence of mine is
either worthlesss or maybe even misleading. I was more interested in
being clever than thinking about what I said. The absence of a
category by OU or anyone doesn't mean the category shouldn't exist.
Or that it should. OU DE didn't exist for many years I think. I'm
not sure what changed.
>>
>> The prohibition on kitniyos is only rabbinic, not d'oraita like mixing
>> milk and meat, so my guess is that there is no problem with kitniyos
>> equipment.
However this I would still say.
>----
>There is actually batel (nullification) with milk and meat.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
I know. That wasn't my point. (Maybe it's the inverse or converse;
I"m not sure.)
cindys
> being clever than thinking about what I said. The absence of a
> category by OU or anyone doesn't mean the category shouldn't exist.
> Or that it should. OU DE didn't exist for many years I think. I'm
> not sure what changed.
snip
-----
AFAIK, the only major certifying agency that still uses the DE
designation is the O-K, or maybe the O-K doesn't use this designation
anymore either. If a product is DE, the O-U will mark it as O-U D. I
think the reasoning here is that many consumers didn't really
understand the significance of the DE designation or how it differed
from the D, and so they were confused, and they were making errors.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>
> >> Too late to order for this year anyhow, and plenty of time to ask OU
> >> or a rabbi before next year.
----
The products are on sale now and for very low prices (depending on the
herb/spice, they cost around $1 to $2 per bottle). I was all set to
order a bunch of different herbs/spices that I have never seen KLP in
my city and save them for next year. I checked off the ones I wanted,
and my total (for the products) came to a little over $12, but then,
the cost of shipping (the least expensive option) was $16.59, so I
decided against placing the order (as a matter of principle). We are
talking about a total product weight of less than a pound. The bottles
could be thrown into one of those flat-rate Priority Mail boxes and
shipped for a few dollars, but apparently, that is not an option. So
be it.
All of these years, my kids have managed to survive the 8 days of
Pesach without dried oregano. I suspect they can continue to do so
without being emotionally scarred for life. If we are ever really
desperate for oregano, Wegmans does sell all kinds of fresh herbs in
the produce department.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>On Apr 23, 8:41 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>> >> Too late to order for this year anyhow, and plenty of time to ask OU
>> >> or a rabbi before next year.
>----
>The products are on sale now and for very low prices (depending on the
>herb/spice, they cost around $1 to $2 per bottle). I was all set to
>order a bunch of different herbs/spices that I have never seen KLP in
>my city and save them for next year. I checked off the ones I wanted,
>and my total (for the products) came to a little over $12, but then,
>the cost of shipping (the least expensive option) was $16.59, so I
I was interested in buying a 4 dollar plug, for a laptop, maybe weighs
an ounce or two, and it listed the default shipping as "Cheapest
shipping with tracking, $6.25". I don't need tracking and I'm not in
a hurry. So I'm not getting it and I'll look around for something
else.
There was a famous independent hardware store in Dallas a few years
ago that shipped me 16 brass shelf pegs for 39 cents for postage and
handling. All they did was put them in an envelope and mail them.
But stores like that are few and far between.
>decided against placing the order (as a matter of principle). We are
>talking about a total product weight of less than a pound. The bottles
>could be thrown into one of those flat-rate Priority Mail boxes and
>shipped for a few dollars, but apparently, that is not an option. So
>be it.
>
>All of these years, my kids have managed to survive the 8 days of
>Pesach without dried oregano. I suspect they can continue to do so
>without being emotionally scarred for life.
I don't know. I went two weeks without chocolate once, and I'm still
a little fermisht.
> If we are ever really
>desperate for oregano, Wegmans does sell all kinds of fresh herbs in
>the produce department.
I don't think the younger generation likes fresh food.
>Best regards,
>---Cindy S.
Henry Goodman
________________________________________________________________________
I suspect our ancestors 100 years ago managed to live their entire lives
without tasting oregano, dried or fresh.
--
Henry Goodman
henry dot goodman at virgin dot net
cindys
snip
>
> I don't think the younger generation likes fresh food.
snip
----
My younger son certainly does. Omelets with goat cheese and fresh
herbs. Poached salmon. Sushi with avocado and (imitation) crab meat.
Spinach souffle. Godiva chocolates. Semi-dry white wine (he's only
allowed to have a few sips). I had to stop taking him to Wegmans with
me because he kept begging for truffles. His birthday present last
year was a sushi knife.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Patty
OK let me back up. Did you ask your rabbi about this? If not why
not?
If you did, then this reminds me of something my brother did. He's a
CPA and CFP and does taxes for his financial planning customers. One
year he asked me a question about tax preparation, knowing I had HR
Block training and worked for them at one time. I sent him the URL
for a page from the IRS site. He tells me he already checked their
site.
My response: you think I'm going to say anything different from the
IRS?
Abe Kohen
"Adelle" <adstavisa...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:ios5au$2kg$1...@dont-email.me...
> Can't answer that. But I do a few things to make my Passover shopping
> easier - freezing.
>
> When cranberries are in season, I buy a big bag and throw it in the
> freezer.
When are cranberries in season? My wife loves them and I buy big bags at
Costco and put them in the freezer, but I got caught short when the season
apparently ended.
> And when harvesting the herbs I grow at the end of the year, I dry them
> and then put a bit of each into Ziploc bags and freeze them.
I envy you. It is so hard to grow anything here in this concrete jungle. I
miss California and Israel. In California we had such an abundance of fruits
and vegetables in our yard.
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
Abe Kohen
Yes. Pereg brand is from Israel. Any time you buy something KLP from
Israel, you need to consider the possibility that it contains
kitniyot, as most Israelis are Sephardim, and many Israeli KLP
products contain kitniyot. Dr. Josh used to complain that it was
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(I broke my OE-QuoteFix when I changed the OE storage file. Uninstalled and
installed, to no avail.)
Israeli products usually say: Kasher Lapesach, OR: Kasher LaPesach L'ochlei
Kitniyot.
No assumption is made of the demographics. Rather the certification states
explicitly that the kashrut is contingent on whether eating kitniyot is
permissible for you.
The oddest certification was for a can of pickles which had a KLP
certification, AND a separate "K excluding Pesach" from the Badatz. I assume
the Badatz weren't paid the extra Pesach fee.
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
Abe Kohen
"Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:iosfjj$1cu$1...@reader1.panix.com...
It gives me great pleasure to agree with you 100%.
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
Abe Kohen
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:iost9c$ocb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Wendy Baker-who got grapesed oil for this year, avoidng the need to eat
> cottonseed oil from those oversprated cotton bolls.
What's wrong with cold-pressed extra virgin olive oil? It's healthy. Tastes
good. No KLP required on brands listed in the OU booklet.
(I remember when mom used to use schmaltz on Pesach. She doesn't cook any
more, but she doesn't ingest schmaltz any more, either.)
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
cindys
> On Apr 22, 10:14 am, cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My family really likes to make matzah pizza and matzah lasagna for
> > Pesach. Every year, I think to myself, it would be really great to
> > have some KLP oregano, but I have never seen KLP oregano in Wegmans
> > (or any other local supermarket or shop that carries KLP items). My
> > younger son has also asked me for KLP crushed or ground red pepper.
>
> > To cut to the chase, I was just at the site for Aviglatt (online
> > kosher store), and I saw that they carry these two items Gefen brand
> > KLP. However, I noticed that there are a number of other KLP Gefen
> > brand herbs/spices (like cumin for example) that are kitniyot. So, my
> > question is this: Is it okay (for Ashkenazim) to purchase the non-
> > kitniyot Gefen KLP herbs/spices like oregano? (My concern is that they
> > may have been bottled on the same equipment as the kitniyot). Or is it
> > okay to rely on batel (nullification) when it comes to kitniyot on
> > Pesach?
> > Thanks in advance.
> > Best regards,
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> OK let me back up. Did you ask your rabbi about this? If not why
> not?
I don't have a rabbi. My approach to halacha is to gather my own
information and then arrive at my own decisions. This is one of a
number of reasons why I'm not "Orthodox."
>
> If you did,
I didn't.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
"meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:571baab4-196c-45e0...@j25g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Thank you for taking the time and trouble.
Why would anyone (excluding Satmar and the like) be more machmir than Reb
Moshe Feinstein?
Will all kosher chicken soon be required to be "glatt?"
Is all this narishkeit the result of people being unversed in kashrut?
Baalei batim who can shukel in shul, but can't recite/understand a blatt
gemara?
Won't all this drive more Jews AWAY from Orthodoxy?
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
cindys
> "Adelle" <adstavisatgmail....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:ios5au$2kg$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > Can't answer that. But I do a few things to make my Passover shopping
> > easier - freezing.
>
> > When cranberries are in season, I buy a big bag and throw it in the
> > freezer.
They're available fresh in the produce section of most major
supermarkets from October through December. I don't know if they're
"in season," but people like to buy them to make cranberry sauce to
accompany holiday turkeys, so that's when they're available.
At other times of the year, you can buy frozen bagged cranberries in
the frozen fruit section of the supermarket. At least you can at
Wegmans.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6d279d88-300f-4afd...@r19g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> Yes. Pereg brand is from Israel. Any time you buy something KLP from
> Israel, you need to consider the possibility that it contains
> kitniyot, as most Israelis are Sephardim, and many Israeli KLP
> products contain kitniyot. Dr. Josh used to complain that it was
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (I broke my OE-QuoteFix when I changed the OE storage file. Uninstalled and
> installed, to no avail.)
>
> Israeli products usually say: Kasher Lapesach, OR: Kasher LaPesach L'ochlei
> Kitniyot.
>
> No assumption is made of the demographics. Rather the certification states
> explicitly that the kashrut is contingent on whether eating kitniyot is
> permissible for you.
You response implies that I wrote that the certification stated "KLP
for Sephardim" or something like that. I never said anything like
this, so I don't know why you found it necessary to refute it. What I
wrote was that KLP products from Israel often contain kitniyot, so
it's important to read the ingredient labels (and my proffered
explanation was that the majority of Israelis are Sephardim and eat
kitniyot in Pesach). I never mentioned anything about assumptions
being made regarding demographics viz labeling.
Companies are in business to make money. They would not be selling KLP
products that contain kitniyot if there weren't a large population of
people who were interested in or willing to buy these products. In
Israel, there is such a population, the Sephardim, and that is why a
lot of the KLP products in Israel contain kitniyot. It would be
pointless for a company to sell KLP products containing kitniyot if
90% of the population were unwilling or unable to eat them. But in the
USA, there is a large population that doesn't eat kitniyot, and it
never occurs to many American Jews that a product from Israel marked
"KLP" may contain kitniyot. And many American Jews don't understand
enough Hebrew to know what "Kasher LaPesach L'ochlei Kitniyot" means.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
> "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
> news:iost9c$ocb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>
>
> > Wendy Baker-who got grapesed oil for this year, avoidng the need to eat
> > cottonseed oil from those oversprated cotton bolls.
>
> What's wrong with cold-pressed extra virgin olive oil? It's healthy. Tastes
> good. No KLP required on brands listed in the OU booklet.
AFAIK, no KLP is required on any brand of extra-virgin olive oil, not
only the ones listed in the OU booklet. But what's "wrong" with virgin
olive oil is that it has a very strong taste, and while it's fine to
use for making something like potato kugel, it may not be the taste
you want when making something like chocolate chip cookies.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
W. Baker
: "meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: Thank you for taking the time and trouble.
: Why would anyone (excluding Satmar and the like) be more machmir than Reb
: Moshe Feinstein?
: Will all kosher chicken soon be required to be "glatt?"
: Is all this narishkeit the result of people being unversed in kashrut?
: Baalei batim who can shukel in shul, but can't recite/understand a blatt
: gemara?
: Won't all this drive more Jews AWAY from Orthodoxy?
: Hag Sa-me'-ach,
: Abe
What I wonde, now that foods, like liver, are often sold in butchershops
already broiled, if, over time people will begin to think that peole wil
think that you should buy only pre-broiled liver because , it will be done
properly and, maybe if you do it at home you will make a misake(not enough
saalt, to short a broiling time, etc) and a new chumra will arise and a
new assumption that we can't do the things our mothers did very easily. A
convenience leads to belief in lack of skills leads to chumra leads to
more separation.
Wendy Baker
Abe Kohen
"KLP" may contain kitniyot. And many American Jews don't understand
enough Hebrew to know what "Kasher LaPesach L'ochlei Kitniyot" means.
--------------------------------------------
And there lies the crux of the problem. An O Jew should as a minimum
understand what that means. Otherwise he should restrict himself to OU
certified products. Ignorance begets unreasonable humrot.
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
Abe Kohen
Amen!
I bought some pre-broiled liver in Brooklyn for my wife. She found it
inedible. (I ended up eating it for resaons of baal tash-hit.) Then I bought
her some fresh calf liver from Park East Kosher - expensive, but delicious.
Hag Sa-me'-ach,
Abe
meir b.
(snip)
> The oddest certification was for a can of pickles which had a KLP
> certification, AND a separate "K excluding Pesach" from the Badatz. I assume
> the Badatz weren't paid the extra Pesach fee.
No, it means that the company did not want to go either to the
expense or to the bother of making the changes the Badatz wanted for
the product to meet its KLP standards. The company was prepared to
forgo, for seven days, the business of those who insist on the Badatz
hechsher.
Meir B.
> Hag Sa-me'-ach,
> Abe
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
When I prepare dried beans, that's exactly what I do. Pour them out a
plateful at a time, go through looking for moldy or otherwise
unacceptable ones or stones, then transfer to a sieve for rinsing.
I don't pick them up one by one, just move them around to make sure I
can see them all.
Susan Silberstein
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
>My family really likes to make matzah pizza and matzah lasagna for
>Pesach. Every year, I think to myself, it would be really great to
>have some KLP oregano, but I have never seen KLP oregano in Wegmans
>(or any other local supermarket or shop that carries KLP items). My
>younger son has also asked me for KLP crushed or ground red pepper.
>
>To cut to the chase, I was just at the site for Aviglatt (online
>kosher store), and I saw that they carry these two items Gefen brand
>KLP. However, I noticed that there are a number of other KLP Gefen
>brand herbs/spices (like cumin for example) that are kitniyot. So, my
>question is this: Is it okay (for Ashkenazim) to purchase the non-
>kitniyot Gefen KLP herbs/spices like oregano? (My concern is that they
>may have been bottled on the same equipment as the kitniyot). Or is it
>okay to rely on batel (nullification) when it comes to kitniyot on
>Pesach?
Unless an herb or spice is generally considered to be iffy because of
how or where it's grown, can't you use the generally accepted as kosher
seasonings during Pesach? I looked at my bottles just now, some labels
have symbols from various certifiers, some not, but none are KLP.
Susan Silberstein
cindys
snip
>
> Unless an herb or spice is generally considered to be iffy because of
> how or where it's grown, can't you use the generally accepted as kosher
> seasonings during Pesach?
Not anymore. That used to be the case up until a few years ago, but
the current O standard is that herbs and spices must be kosher
certified. I can't recall the reason given for sure, but I think it
was concerns about chametz.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Abe Kohen
On Apr 26, 3:11 pm, Susan S <otoeremovet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
snip
>
> Unless an herb or spice is generally considered to be iffy because of
> how or where it's grown, can't you use the generally accepted as kosher
> seasonings during Pesach?
---
Not anymore. That used to be the case up until a few years ago, but
the current O standard is that herbs and spices must be kosher
certified. I can't recall the reason given for sure, but I think it
was concerns about chametz.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Humra on top of humra. What ever happened to v'chai ba-hem?
Abe
cindys
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
It's not a chumra if there is a chametz problem. There are hundreds of
year-round kosher-certified products that do not require special
Pesach certification, but herbs and spices are not among them.
From: http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/passover/article/5731
"Ground spices require Passover certification. They can be processed
on equipment that contains chometz and can also be adulterated with
kitniyos or chometz."
From: http://www.seattlevaad.org/Pesach_Food.html
"...Spice blends often contain flow agents – some potentially Chametz;
or, the company also does seasonings with flour, or other ingredients
on the same blenders..."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>
> (3) Kitniyot is bateil berov -- if it constitutes less than 50%
> of a mixture, the mixture is permitted. However, that applies after
> the fact. One is not permitted intentionally to nullify kitniot, even
> in far lesser amounts.
-----
Yes, I would agree that the halacha is that batel b'rov applies only
bedieved (after the fact). That said, there is a sh**ta that 100% pure
apple juice is kosher (not for Pesach - the rest of the year) without
any hechsher at all. And the reasoning for people who hold this way is
that if the apple juice is processed on the same equipment as grape
juice, the apple juice is kosher bedieved because of bitul b'rov (the
greater quantity of apple juice nullifies any small quantity of grape
juice after the fact). IIRC, this is (or was) the position of one of
the big kosher certifying agencies (or it was 10+ years ago anyway).
So, my question is, if one knows l'chatchila (from the beginning) that
grape juice has been processed on the same equipment as the apple
juice, how can one justify consuming the apple juice (by relying on
bitul b'rov bedieved)? Or can we say that as long as there is a safek
(doubt), and we don't know for certain that there is grape juice
contamination, then we can rely on bitul b'rov on the *possibility*
but not certainty that there may be grape juice contamination?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mm
I don't know much about what you said, but I was thinking of a new
category for the OU: O U Iffy.
Susan S
<cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
>On Apr 26, 7:53 pm, "Abe Kohen" <abeko...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wasn't thinking about spice blends, but single plants like oregano,
thyme, celery seed, ground coriander, etc. (all of which are among the
kosher certified herbs and spices in my pantry).
Susan Silberstein
cindys
> In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from cindys
What I wrote above would apply to both single plants and blends; there
is concern for chametz on the equipment. Also, another website (which
I was unable to locate 5 minutes after I found it the first time)
mentioned the use of sodium citrate (?) as a preservative (which
apparently is a problem) and reiterated that if the percentage of a
given ingredient (such as a preservative or stabilizer) comprises less
than a certain percentage of the total product (I think it's 2%), the
ingredient doesn't need to be mentioned on the label.
I think you know my position on chumros. I always prefer the kula
(lenient view). That said, all of the big certifying agencies every
year publish lists of KLP products that are KLP without special KLP
certification, but in the last couple of years, they've made a point
of stating that bottled herbs and spices require KLP certification and
that the plain O-U (or O-K et al) is not enough (due to the
possibility of contamination with bonafide chametz or the deliberate
introduction of a chametz-containing preservative or stabilizer).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>So, my question is, if one knows l'chatchila (from the beginning) that
>grape juice has been processed on the same equipment as the apple
>juice, how can one justify consuming the apple juice (by relying on
>bitul b'rov bedieved)? Or can we say that as long as there is a safek
>(doubt), and we don't know for certain that there is grape juice
>contamination, then we can rely on bitul b'rov on the *possibility*
>but not certainty that there may be grape juice contamination?
What's wrong with being processed on the same equipment as grape juice?
It seems like you're taking a chumra from one scenario / regulation and
applying it to a completely different scenario / regulation. Just because
one does not eat from a pot in which non-kosher meat has been cooked, what
relevance does that have to apple juice, even if grape juice has been
cooked in the same vessel?
Is the prohibition on non-Jewish grape juice even d'oraita in origin? If
not, then wouldn't it be the case that it's a violation of halacha to
extend "do not drink grape juice that has been touched by a non-Jew" to
"do not eat foods cooked in a vessel in which such grape juice has been
cooked?" That is, it's a fence on a rabbinical rule, which I thought you
weren't allowed to do.
--s
--
cindys
> In <9c24ccc7-7ddc-45ff-98aa-bd4a5553c...@x3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >So, my question is, if one knows l'chatchila (from the beginning) that
> >grape juice has been processed on the same equipment as the apple
> >juice, how can one justify consuming the apple juice (by relying on
> >bitul b'rov bedieved)? Or can we say that as long as there is a safek
> >(doubt), and we don't know for certain that there is grape juice
> >contamination, then we can rely on bitul b'rov on the *possibility*
> >but not certainty that there may be grape juice contamination?
>
> What's wrong with being processed on the same equipment as grape juice?
There is the potential for a small amount of non-mevushal grape juice
being mixed with the apple juice.
>
> It seems like you're taking a chumra from one scenario / regulation and
> applying it to a completely different scenario / regulation.
Meir B. was not referring to a chumrah. It's a basic halachic concept
regarding bitul b'rov (if there is accidental contamination of kosher
with nonkosher and one realizes the error bidieved, after the fact,
assuming the kosher ingredient is in the majority, the mixture is
still kosher). But a person cannot plan from the outset (l'chatchila)
to rely on bitul b'rov. I.e., if I accidentally spill a drop of milk
into my chicken soup, assuming I can't taste the milk, the chicken
soup is still kosher. But if I cook some chicken soup and deliberately
spill a drop of milk into the soup with the intention of nullifying
the milk in the soup, the soup is treif.
> Just because
> one does not eat from a pot in which non-kosher meat has been cooked,
No one was talking about pots here. We were talking about bitul b'rov
bidieved versus l'chatchilah WRT the possibility of kitniyot
contamination in bottles of herbs/spices. Meir reiterated the halacha
regarding bitul b'rov and under what circumstances it could be relied
on (only bidieved). I brought up an analogous situation with apple
juice that was being considered kosher without a hechsher even though
it may have been contaminated with grape juice, and stated the reason
some people consider the apple juice kosher despite the contamination
is because they rely on bitul b'rov bidieved, but I was pointing out
that if one is aware of the problem from the outset, it isn't really
bidieved, it's really l'chatchilah. So, I was asking Meir B for his
opinion/explanation of this.
>what
> relevance does that have to apple juice, even if grape juice has been
> cooked in the same vessel?
>
> Is the prohibition on non-Jewish grape juice even d'oraita in origin? If
> not, then wouldn't it be the case that it's a violation of halacha
I don't think one could say that people who limit themselves to
drinking only hechshered apple juice are "violating" halacha.
>to
> extend "do not drink grape juice that has been touched by a non-Jew" to
> "do not eat foods cooked in a vessel in which such grape juice has been
> cooked?"
It's not about a vessel in which grape juice has been cooked. It's
about a small amount of actual grape juice being mixed in with the
apple juice.
>That is, it's a fence on a rabbinical rule, which I thought you
> weren't allowed to do.
I don't know. I am hoping Meir B will offer his insight.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>> What's wrong with being processed on the same equipment as grape juice?
>There is the potential for a small amount of non-mevushal grape juice
>being mixed with the apple juice.
Surely they wash the equipment between batches.
>>
>> It seems like you're taking a chumra from one scenario / regulation and
>> applying it to a completely different scenario / regulation.
>Meir B. was not referring to a chumrah. It's a basic halachic concept
>regarding bitul b'rov (if there is accidental contamination of kosher
>with nonkosher and one realizes the error bidieved, after the fact,
>assuming the kosher ingredient is in the majority, the mixture is
>still kosher). But a person cannot plan from the outset (l'chatchila)
>to rely on bitul b'rov. I.e., if I accidentally spill a drop of milk
>into my chicken soup, assuming I can't taste the milk, the chicken
>soup is still kosher. But if I cook some chicken soup and deliberately
>spill a drop of milk into the soup with the intention of nullifying
>the milk in the soup, the soup is treif.
I understand - but you aren't talking about kashrus, you're talking about
prohibitions on non-Jewish wine. AFAICT that has nothing to do with
kashrus. That's what I mean about applying one set of rules to another
situation.
>> Just because
>> one does not eat from a pot in which non-kosher meat has been cooked,
>No one was talking about pots here. We were talking about bitul b'rov
>bidieved versus l'chatchilah WRT the possibility of kitniyot
>contamination in bottles of herbs/spices. Meir reiterated the halacha
>regarding bitul b'rov and under what circumstances it could be relied
>on (only bidieved). I brought up an analogous situation with apple
>juice that was being considered kosher without a hechsher even though
>it may have been contaminated with grape juice, and stated the reason
>some people consider the apple juice kosher despite the contamination
>is because they rely on bitul b'rov bidieved, but I was pointing out
>that if one is aware of the problem from the outset, it isn't really
>bidieved, it's really l'chatchilah. So, I was asking Meir B for his
>opinion/explanation of this.
Right, but meat/dairy mixtures, improperly schected valid species, invalid
species, chometz, kitniyot, and non-Jewish wine are 6 competely separate
notions, aren't they? While all of them relate to "what you can and can't
eat," and people as a sort of shorthand refer to all issues of what you
can and can't eat as "kashrus," nevertheless they're entirely different.
IMHO I don't see how you can conclude that the laws of improperly shected
meat, say, would apply in any way shape or form to non-Jewish wine.
>> Is the prohibition on non-Jewish grape juice even d'oraita in origin? If
>> not, then wouldn't it be the case that it's a violation of halacha
>I don't think one could say that people who limit themselves to
>drinking only hechshered apple juice are "violating" halacha.
People can limit themselves to whatever they like - people who limit
themselves to drinking only bottled water aren't violating halacha,
either. The violation (if any) would be (in this case) the assertion that
halacha prohibits one from consuming apple juice that has been processed
in the same vessel as grape juice.
>>to
>> extend "do not drink grape juice that has been touched by a non-Jew" to
>> "do not eat foods cooked in a vessel in which such grape juice has been
>> cooked?"
>It's not about a vessel in which grape juice has been cooked. It's
>about a small amount of actual grape juice being mixed in with the
>apple juice.
Oh, then no problem - that's never going to happen. And if it did, it
would certainly be inadvertent.
--s
--
sheldonlg
>> It's not about a vessel in which grape juice has been cooked. It's
>> >about a small amount of actual grape juice being mixed in with the
>> >apple juice.
Is there a prohibition against mixing grape juice with apple juice? If
so, then why?
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
Hey, I didn't say that, Cindy did.
The concern isn't the mixing, it's that one is prohibited to drink wine
with non-Jews out of concern you might marry their daughters (a Rabbinic
prohibition) and further you cannot drink wine that has been touched by a
non-Jew (potentially for the above reason, as well as the concern that it
may have been consecrated to an idol).
Since grape juice can be made into wine, the ruling is extended to include
it.
Now, you can drink wine that has been "ruined" by boiling it prior to be
touched, so one would presume that apple juice would ruin it just as well.
I don't see how intention matters either, since one intentionally ruins it
by boiling....
I think, in my ever so humble opinion, that the mistake here is in
thinking of this issue in terms of kashrus, when in fact it's nothing of
the kind.
--s
--
cindys
Well, it's not as if I'm making the whole thing up. It is a fact that
people who are strict about kashrus will not drink juice without a
hechsher. It is a fact that juice without a hechsher is almost
universally regarded (by the frum community) as being prohibited.
There are a few exceptions, orange juice from concentrate being one of
them (I think fresh orange juice is also okay without a hechsher) and
100% pure apple juice is another, but only in the opinions of some
people. Other people hold that the apple juice requires a hechsher
just like any other juice. And the issue is concern that grape juice
may have been mixed in. And this is not a brand-new chumrah either.
(The reason pink grapefruit juice needs a hechsher is that it is
sometimes colored with red dye from the shell of an insect, so in that
case, we really are talking about bonafide treif).
FTR, there are a lot of juice mixtures on the market, and I don't know
that one can necessarily assume that the equipment is washed between
runs of grape juice and apple juice.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>> I think, in my ever so humble opinion, that the mistake here is in
>> thinking of this issue in terms of kashrus, when in fact it's nothing of
>> the kind.
>---
>Well, it's not as if I'm making the whole thing up. It is a fact that
>people who are strict about kashrus will not drink juice without a
>hechsher. It is a fact that juice without a hechsher is almost
>universally regarded (by the frum community) as being prohibited.
>There are a few exceptions, orange juice from concentrate being one of
>them (I think fresh orange juice is also okay without a hechsher) and
>100% pure apple juice is another, but only in the opinions of some
>people. Other people hold that the apple juice requires a hechsher
>just like any other juice. And the issue is concern that grape juice
>may have been mixed in. And this is not a brand-new chumrah either.
>(The reason pink grapefruit juice needs a hechsher is that it is
>sometimes colored with red dye from the shell of an insect, so in that
>case, we really are talking about bonafide treif).
Right after I hit "send" I realized that I didn't phrase this well at all.
By saying "the mistake here" I didn't mean to imply you personally were
making any kind of mistake, I was referring to the elusive "they"...
I can understand wanting a hechscher for juice just like any other
commercial product, and sure - insect-based dyes are as you point out
bonafide treif.
>FTR, there are a lot of juice mixtures on the market, and I don't know
>that one can necessarily assume that the equipment is washed between
>runs of grape juice and apple juice.
I don't see what difference it makes. I assert (with no basis whatsoever
of course) that it's not an issue of "kashrus" and thus rules of kashrus
don't apply. My presumption would be that if it's 49% grape juice and 51%
apple that it should be perfectly fine. Because it's not "wine" per the
Rabbinic prohibition, precisely as boiled wine isn't "wine" either. Even
if you can taste the grape juice.
Just my opinion, of course.
--s
--
Adelle
"Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ip1m32$5tk$1...@harrier.steinthal.us...
>
> "Adelle" <adstavisa...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> Can't answer that. But I do a few things to make my Passover shopping
>> easier - freezing.
>>
>> When cranberries are in season, I buy a big bag and throw it in the
>> freezer.
>
> Costco and put them in the freezer, but I got caught short when the season
> apparently ended.
The season is very short. You will find them in October - December.
Occasionally it stretches into January, but that depends on supply/demand
issues. The fresh berries do begin to rot after a bit, even under good
refrigeration. And I'm not sure about how the season runs in the Upper
Midwest areas, but here (New England) there is a single harvest in the Fall,
and there is no way of expanding the season. You can't hot house something
that grows in a bog. And I haven't heard of a Southern Hemisphere
supplier/grower
The bag I bought was also from Costco. But I hid it in the back of the
freezer so I wasn't tempted to use it before Passover.
Adelle
cindys
> In <5faa0bd6-9ac5-41fd-8aae-2bf66b25d...@w9g2000prg.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
snip
>
> >FTR, there are a lot of juice mixtures on the market, and I don't know
> >that one can necessarily assume that the equipment is washed between
> >runs of grape juice and apple juice.
>
> I don't see what difference it makes. I assert (with no basis whatsoever
> of course) that it's not an issue of "kashrus" and thus rules of kashrus
> don't apply.
Okay. Let's take the word "kashrus" out of the equation. Let's use
"permitted" and "prohibited" as descriptors instead.
>My presumption would be that if it's 49% grape juice and 51%
> apple that it should be perfectly fine.
You can't have it both ways. You are essentially arguing that the 51%
apple, 49% grape juice mixture should be permitted because of bitul
b'rov (nullification of nonkosher in a kosher majority). This is a
rule that applies to issues of *kashrus* (either basar b'cholov, i.e.,
the meat/milk mixture or the kosher meat/treif meat mixture). So...
If you want to apply bitul b'rov to grape juice in apple juice, then
you also have to apply the rules regarding l'chatchila (from the
outset) and bedieved (after the fact). If one is relying on bitul
b'rov in a scenario where milk drips into the chicken soup or the
scenario where you have 3 identical-looking pieces of chicken in front
of you, 2 are kosher, 1 is treif, and you don't know which is which,
all may be considered kosher, then you also have to take into
consideration if the confusion is l'chatchilah or bedieved.
If it's bedieved, (after the fact, i.e., the milk fell in by accident,
the pieces of chicken got mixed up by accident), then you're okay. But
if l'chatchila, you planned in advance to put some drops of milk in
the chicken soup, you're not okay, the whole mixture is treif, and you
have to throw it out.
So...if you want to apply the rules of bitul b'rov to the apple/grape
juice mixture in the same way that you want to apply bitul b'rov to
basar v'cholov, then in all fairness, you also have to take into
consideration whether or not the juice mixture is bedieved and
l'chatchila. And I'm saying if it's l'chatchila, i.e. that it's known
in advance that the juices will be mixed, then one cannot rely on
bitul b'rov to resolve the problem of the grape juice.
>Because it's not "wine" per the
> Rabbinic prohibition, precisely as boiled wine isn't "wine" either.
Grape juice needs to be mevushal if it's going to be handled by a non-
Jew, so I don't think you can equate non-mevushal grape juice with
mevushal wine.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
meir b.
Your assumption is, unfortunately, unfounded. The rules of
bittul are not rules of what you define as "kashrut," but are rules of
the mixing of permitted and prohibited foods, regardless of the
category of the prohibition. As an example, the mishna applies the
rules of bittul (nullification) to a mixture of teruma (the part of
the crops grown in Israel which may only be eaten by a kohein) and non-
teruma. It is also applied to the laws of kilei hakerem (a crossbreed
of grapes and other seeds, whose mixture may not be eaten), where such
a mixture got mixed in with other, kosher fruit products; and to the
laws of orla (the prohibition against eating fruits produced during
the first three years of a tree's life.)
As for intentional vs. unintentional mixtures, it is not a rule
about "kashrut" as per your definition. The rule states "ein
mevatelin _issur_ lechatechila," one may not nullify a _prohibited
substance_ in the first instance. No distinction is drawn as to the
nature of the prohibited substance.
Meir
sheldonlg
Now will either of you address the two questions I asked:
1 - Is it prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice?. Forget all
other ifs and buts. Please address this one in a Yes/No fashion. (If
it is allowed under ANY conditions, then the answer is "No, it is not
prohibited").
2 - If it is prohibited, then why is it prohibited?
2 -
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>>My presumption would be that if it's 49% grape juice and 51%
>> apple that it should be perfectly fine.
>You can't have it both ways. You are essentially arguing that the 51%
>apple, 49% grape juice mixture should be permitted because of bitul
>b'rov (nullification of nonkosher in a kosher majority). This is a
>rule that applies to issues of *kashrus* (either basar b'cholov, i.e.,
>the meat/milk mixture or the kosher meat/treif meat mixture). So...
There are mixtures in halacha regarding matters other than kashrus.
>If you want to apply bitul b'rov to grape juice in apple juice, then
>you also have to apply the rules regarding l'chatchila (from the
>outset) and bedieved (after the fact). If one is relying on bitul
>b'rov in a scenario where milk drips into the chicken soup or the
>scenario where you have 3 identical-looking pieces of chicken in front
>of you, 2 are kosher, 1 is treif, and you don't know which is which,
>all may be considered kosher, then you also have to take into
>consideration if the confusion is l'chatchilah or bedieved.
Well, that's a different case for many reasons - for one, it's not a
question of when is a substance permitted or not, but of when is a mixture
actually a mixture or not. It's not a question of nullifying a mixture,
but of "ruining" a substance.
>>Because it's not "wine" per the
>> Rabbinic prohibition, precisely as boiled wine isn't "wine" either.
>Grape juice needs to be mevushal if it's going to be handled by a non-
>Jew, so I don't think you can equate non-mevushal grape juice with
>mevushal wine.
I'm not - I'm equating grape juice "ruined" through boiling with grape
juice "ruined" by mixing it with apple juice.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
> Your assumption is, unfortunately, unfounded. The rules of
>bittul are not rules of what you define as "kashrut," but are rules of
>the mixing of permitted and prohibited foods, regardless of the
>category of the prohibition. As an example, the mishna applies the
>rules of bittul (nullification) to a mixture of teruma (the part of
>the crops grown in Israel which may only be eaten by a kohein) and non-
>teruma. It is also applied to the laws of kilei hakerem (a crossbreed
>of grapes and other seeds, whose mixture may not be eaten), where such
>a mixture got mixed in with other, kosher fruit products; and to the
>laws of orla (the prohibition against eating fruits produced during
>the first three years of a tree's life.)
> As for intentional vs. unintentional mixtures, it is not a rule
>about "kashrut" as per your definition. The rule states "ein
>mevatelin _issur_ lechatechila," one may not nullify a _prohibited
>substance_ in the first instance. No distinction is drawn as to the
>nature of the prohibited substance.
Oh, well - it was a good theory. I note that all the examples you cite
seem to be D'oraita, however, while this is rabbinic, perhaps that makes a
difference.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>Now will either of you address the two questions I asked:
>1 - Is it prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice?. Forget all
>other ifs and buts. Please address this one in a Yes/No fashion. (If
>it is allowed under ANY conditions, then the answer is "No, it is not
>prohibited").
Why would it be? I did answer your question - no, of course it's not
prohibited to mix apple and grape juice. It's prohibited to drink grape
juice that has been touched by a non-Jew prior to being boiled. If it's
boiled, otherwise-kosher grape juice (i.e., a bottle of kedem) then I
can't imagine why there'd be any problem with mixing it with (kosher)
apple juice, or prune juice, or vodka, or whatever.
The question was regarding if you can drink apple juice produced on a line
that also produces non-kosher grape juice without certification.
--s
--
meir b.
(snip)
> 1 - Is it prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice?. Forget all
> other ifs and buts. Please address this one in a Yes/No fashion. (If
> it is allowed under ANY conditions, then the answer is "No, it is not
> prohibited").
It is not prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice.
It _is_ prohibited to drink the resulting mixture.
> 2 - If it is prohibited, then why is it prohibited?
Assuming you refer to the drinking, not the mixing, it is because
of the prohibited substance (the grape juice) mixed in with the
permitted one (the apple juice).
Meir B.
> 2 -
>
> --
> Shelly- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
sheldonlg
> On Apr 27, 4:46 pm, sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> 1 - Is it prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice?. Forget all
>> other ifs and buts. Please address this one in a Yes/No fashion. (If
>> it is allowed under ANY conditions, then the answer is "No, it is not
>> prohibited").
>
> It is not prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice.
>
> It _is_ prohibited to drink the resulting mixture.
That was my _real_ question. Thanks.
>
>> 2 - If it is prohibited, then why is it prohibited?
>
> Assuming you refer to the drinking, not the mixing, it is because
I am.
> of the prohibited substance (the grape juice) mixed in with the
> permitted one (the apple juice).
Why is it prohibited to drink grape juice? I believe I have seen grape
juice with KLP stamped on it. (I don't look for hechshers, but on
Passover I tend to notice these things). If it has KLP, then how is it
prohibited? Note: I am not talking about any of the
stuff/conditions/restrictions that Steve and Cindy were discussing. I
am just talking about pure, generic, grape juice.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>Why is it prohibited to drink grape juice? I believe I have seen grape
>juice with KLP stamped on it. (I don't look for hechshers, but on
>Passover I tend to notice these things). If it has KLP, then how is it
>prohibited? Note: I am not talking about any of the
>stuff/conditions/restrictions that Steve and Cindy were discussing. I
>am just talking about pure, generic, grape juice.
I've answered this question three times - you don't believe me? Grape
juice is the same as wine - if a non-Jew handles it, then Jews are
prohibited to drink it. "Kosher" grape juice is supervised to ensure that
only Jews handle the juice until it's been boiled. Once boiled (mevushal)
it is permitted for non-Jews to handle it.
--s
--
sheldonlg
> In<ipa301$ljo$1...@dont-email.me> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>
>> Why is it prohibited to drink grape juice? I believe I have seen grape
>> juice with KLP stamped on it. (I don't look for hechshers, but on
>> Passover I tend to notice these things). If it has KLP, then how is it
>> prohibited? Note: I am not talking about any of the
>> stuff/conditions/restrictions that Steve and Cindy were discussing. I
>> am just talking about pure, generic, grape juice.
>
> I've answered this question three times - you don't believe me? Grape
No, you didn't. You were talking about special handling, etc. etc. I
am talking about ONLY the grape juice itself, not how it is handled.
Ham, no matter how it is handled or by whom, is prohibited to be consumed.
Shellfish, no matter how it is handled or by whom, is prohibited to be
consumed.
Now grape juice........
_THAT_ was my question.
> juice is the same as wine - if a non-Jew handles it, then Jews are
> prohibited to drink it. "Kosher" grape juice is supervised to ensure that
> only Jews handle the juice until it's been boiled. Once boiled (mevushal)
> it is permitted for non-Jews to handle it.
Then grape juice is _not_ prohibited and drinking a mixture of grape
juice and apple juice is _not_ prohibited. (Meir said it was.)
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> I've answered this question three times - you don't believe me? Grape
>No, you didn't. You were talking about special handling, etc. etc. I
>am talking about ONLY the grape juice itself, not how it is handled.
Shelly. You've put your stubborn hat on again, I see. Recall, if you will,
a couple of posts back when I made precisely that point, that not all
forms of "prohibited" are the same and yet IMO they're often treated
equally as "kashrus." That was exactly what I was complaining about.
As Meir B. pointed out, foods can be prohibited for Jewish consumption for
a number of reasons - among these include foods made from a prohibited
species, food made from a permitted species but not killed and prepared in
the proper way, meat that would otherwise be permitted but is mixed with
dairy, etc. One of these classifications of prohibited food is "grape
juice that was handled by a non-Jew, unless the grape juice was boiled
first."
>Ham, no matter how it is handled or by whom, is prohibited to be consumed.
>Shellfish, no matter how it is handled or by whom, is prohibited to be
>consumed.
Correct. And a nice, certified Empire chicken is permitted to be consumed,
as is a hunk of certified mozzarella cheese. But put the two together into
a sandwich, and boom - prohibited.
>Now grape juice........
>_THAT_ was my question.
>> juice is the same as wine - if a non-Jew handles it, then Jews are
>> prohibited to drink it. "Kosher" grape juice is supervised to ensure that
>> only Jews handle the juice until it's been boiled. Once boiled (mevushal)
>> it is permitted for non-Jews to handle it.
>Then grape juice is _not_ prohibited and drinking a mixture of grape
>juice and apple juice is _not_ prohibited. (Meir said it was.)
I presume Meir was referring to commercially-produced grape juice, which
is prohibited because they have non-Jews helping to make it. It's true
that one can make permitted grape juice, and then subsequently turn it
into permitted wine, but it's different from apple juice (or apple wine,
for that matter) in that apple juice made "the normal way," that is, in a
regular plant by average Americans, would inherently be permitted unless
they actively do something to make it forbidden (such as adding grape
juice, or adding a colorant made from insects) whereas grape juice made
"the normal way" would be inherently prohibited.
I am very carefully avoiding the word "kosher" here - because that's the
point you seem to be getting stuck on, which actually supports the point I
was originally making - namely, "not kosher" isn't the only reason food
can be prohibited, even if people use that label as a generalized synonym
for "prohibited to be eaten."
--s
--
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
snip
> For amny Orthodox peanut oil would be totally acceptable( like gebrocts
> cakes, etc) if it were available uner supervision, for KLP. Since the
> companies are foing for the biggest customer base they no longer certify
> such products. I remember eating those Pecther KLP matzo meat ssponge anc
> nut cakes in my KLP house as a child. Peanut oil, rather than the rather
> noxious cottonseed oil was the oil for Pesach. It s still KLP for many,
> many Orthodox Jews, though not all, so we all have to do without .
Why do you say that cottonseed oil is noxious? In any case, here in
Israel the non-kitniyot oils are olive, walnut and palm.
snip
> Wendy Baker-who got grapesed oil for this year, avoidng the need to eat
> cottonseed oil from those oversprated cotton bolls.
Again, what's the problem with cottonseed oil?
--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>> sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> When I learned that the Sephardi allowed rice, I changed to Sephardi. :-)
>>>
>> And before you learnt that, you avoided rice? Oh, I see! There is a
>> smiley. It's all a joke. Okay, never mind.
>>
>> GEK
>> pointing out that Sapharadi allow beans and peas on Pesach, but some,
>> such as Morroccans, do not allow rice. And in any event, for
>> Sapharadim the rice, or beans, or peas have to be picked over
>> individually by hand before Pesach to ensure by actual inspection that
>> no kernals of wheat or other grain contaminate the lot.
>
> Surely you jest. Picking over the rice a kernel at a time by hand?
> Who is that meshiga?
There we go again. Shelly doesn't do it. Anyone who does is crazy.
_Very_ polite way of discussing a custom. Not.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
At last, some clarity on the topic. Thank you Meir B.
Moshe Schorr
Nothing snipped
> A few comments on matters arising on this topic:
>
> (1) Cumin is not kitniyot. According to the OU website, there
> are two brands of cumin which are kosher for Pesach; they require the
> OU-P to appear on the container.
>
> (2) Kitniyot, unlike chametz, may be owned on Pesach, and benefit
> other than ingestion is permitted. Thus, one may feed kitniyot to
> one's animals.
>
> (3) Kitniyot is bateil berov -- if it constitutes less than 50%
> of a mixture, the mixture is permitted. However, that applies after
> the fact. One is not permitted intentionally to nullify kitniot, even
> in far lesser amounts. Many medications on the various kosher for
> Pesach lists contain kitniyot, as the tablets and pills contain corn
> starch.
>
> (4) There are those who are stringent in using kitniyot
> derivatives, and those who are more lenient. When I was growing up,
> the most common oil for Pesach was Nutola, which was peanut oil, and
> whose manufacturer, named Zupnik, was affiliated with Satmar. My
> family never used it, but it was used in many of the more stringent
> homes. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, peanuts themselves were not
> considered kitniyot in pre-WWII Europe. Today, however, it has become
> universally recognized as kitniyot, and the kashrut-certifying
> agencies will not certify any product containing it or any kitniyot
> derivative, since they want their certifications to be accepted
> universally. (Hence, none of the generally accepted agencies will
> certify any meat product unless it is glatt, even though prior to WWII
> there was virtually no glatt meat available, and most observant Jews
> ate non-glatt.)
>
> (5) The Brisker are of the opinion that cottonseed oil is a
> kitniyot oil.
>
> Meir B.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> The oddest certification was for a can of pickles which had a KLP
> certification, AND a separate "K excluding Pesach" from the Badatz.
> I assume the Badatz weren't paid the extra Pesach fee.
Bad assumption. The Badatz doesn't usually give a KLP on "new"
products. So for example, you won't find any soda KLP Badatz, just
seltzer. To make that clear, they often add that line about excluding
Pesach.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>
> "meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
He _is_ nice.
> Why would anyone (excluding Satmar and the like) be more machmir
> than Reb Moshe Feinstein?
Since kitniyot is a matter of custom, I don't think the word
"machmir" is appropriate. Reb Moshe's family didn't have the custom,
my family does.
> Will all kosher chicken soon be required to be "glatt?"
LOL. It's already availbale in Israel!
> Is all this narishkeit the result of people being unversed in
> kashrut?
Possibly.
> Baalei batim who can shukel in shul, but can't recite/understand
> a blatt gemara?
You need more than a blatt gemara to become well versed in kashrut.
> Won't all this drive more Jews AWAY from Orthodoxy?
Interesting question. I doubt if the ones who are being so scrupulous
are considering it. I suspect that it will depend on the person.
Some will be drawn to Orthodoxy _because_ it doesn't "cut corners".
Others, as you fear, will be driven away from all the "nit-picking".
I suppose it's in the eyes of the beholder.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Abe Kohen <abek...@gmail.com> wrote:
> : "meir b." <mei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> : Thank you for taking the time and trouble.
>
> : Why would anyone (excluding Satmar and the like) be more machmir than Reb
> : Moshe Feinstein?
>
> : Will all kosher chicken soon be required to be "glatt?"
>
> : Is all this narishkeit the result of people being unversed in kashrut?
> : Baalei batim who can shukel in shul, but can't recite/understand a blatt
> : gemara?
>
> : Won't all this drive more Jews AWAY from Orthodoxy?
>
> What I wonde, now that foods, like liver, are often sold in butchershops
> already broiled, if, over time people will begin to think that peole wil
> think that you should buy only pre-broiled liver because , it will be done
> properly and, maybe if you do it at home you will make a misake(not enough
> saalt, to short a broiling time, etc) and a new chumra will arise and a
> new assumption that we can't do the things our mothers did very easily. A
> convenience leads to belief in lack of skills leads to chumra leads to
> more separation.
Good point. We had a teacher in high school who made it a point to
kasher at least one utensil for Pesach, just to demonstrate/remind
that it _can_ be done.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com>:
>>On Apr 22, 8:31pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/22/2011 6:33 PM, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:
>>> > On Apr 22, 3:45 pm, sheldonlg<sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> When I learned that the Sephardi allowed rice, I changed to Sephardi. :-)
>>>
>>> > And before you learnt that, you avoided rice? Oh, I see! There is a
>>> > smiley. It's all a joke. Okay, never mind.
>>>
>>> > GEK
>>> > pointing out that Sapharadi allow beans and peas on Pesach, but
>>> > some, such as Morroccans, do not allow rice. And in any event, for
>>> > Sapharadim the rice, or beans, or peas have to be picked over
>>> > individually by hand before Pesach to ensure by actual inspection
>>> > that no kernals of wheat or other grain contaminate the lot.
>>>
>>> Surely you jest. Picking over the rice a kernel at a time by hand?
>>
>>
>>> Who is that meshiga?
>>
>>All the Sephardim I know. They pour out the rice onto a plate and
>>check it over to ensure they don't see anything that isn't rice. If
>>they do, they pick it out. I don't see anything so crazy about this.
>
> When I prepare dried beans, that's exactly what I do. Pour them out
> a plateful at a time, go through looking for moldy or otherwise
> unacceptable ones or stones, then transfer to a sieve for rinsing.
>
> I don't pick them up one by one, just move them around to make sure
> I can see them all.
Ah, but you're not doing it for a "religious" reason, so it's fine.
It's only when it's done for religion, that Shelly calls it "crazy".
<SIGH>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> Susan S <otoeremovet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
> snip
>>
>> Unless an herb or spice is generally considered to be iffy because of
>> how or where it's grown, can't you use the generally accepted as kosher
>> seasonings during Pesach?
> ---
> Not anymore. That used to be the case up until a few years ago, but
> the current O standard is that herbs and spices must be kosher
> certified. I can't recall the reason given for sure, but I think it
> was concerns about chametz.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Humra on top of humra. What ever happened to v'chai ba-hem?
Who is not able to live with getting a KLP on the spice box?
mm
>"Abe Kohen" <abek...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> The oddest certification was for a can of pickles which had a KLP
>> certification, AND a separate "K excluding Pesach" from the Badatz.
>> I assume the Badatz weren't paid the extra Pesach fee.
>
>Bad assumption. The Badatz doesn't usually give a KLP on "new"
>products. So for example, you won't find any soda KLP Badatz, just
>seltzer. To make that clear, they often add that line about excluding
>Pesach.
If it's cynical, Abe will assume it. Even, or maybe especially,
against Jews. When I read his posts, a third of them were like that.
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
big snip
> I'm equating grape juice "ruined" through boiling with grape
> juice "ruined" by mixing it with apple juice.
Your assumption is wrong. The boiling is _not_ to "ruin" the wine.
(That may be an unintended consequence <g>). It is to make it unfit
for sacrificial use.
mm
Wow. I wonder if that would work for me with frozen food. Or
non-frozen.
I bought Dr. Brown's soda and wanted something sweet so I drank it
before Passover. I was almost ready to start in on the marshmmallows
too. (Wouldn't a rubber band around the bag keep it from becoming
chometz, I asked myself, but then realized that wasn't the issue,
because I would eat them all if I opened the bag.)
The temptation was worse this year than any other, I don't know why.
OTOH, now that 7-Mile has a rally big store, they were still not out
of chocolate candy bars on Sunday.
>Adelle
Steve Goldfarb
>"Steve Goldfarb" <s...@panix.com> writes:
>big snip
>> I'm equating grape juice "ruined" through boiling with grape
>> juice "ruined" by mixing it with apple juice.
>Your assumption is wrong. The boiling is _not_ to "ruin" the wine.
>(That may be an unintended consequence <g>). It is to make it unfit
>for sacrificial use.
"ruin" == "make unfit" - that's exactly what I mean, and it's why I put
the word ruin in quotes.
--s
--
sheldonlg
> In<ipa7f6$27j$1...@dont-email.me> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>
>>> I've answered this question three times - you don't believe me? Grape
>
>> No, you didn't. You were talking about special handling, etc. etc. I
>> am talking about ONLY the grape juice itself, not how it is handled.
>
> Shelly. You've put your stubborn hat on again, I see. Recall, if you will,
No, Steve, I think you are.
> a couple of posts back when I made precisely that point, that not all
> forms of "prohibited" are the same and yet IMO they're often treated
> equally as "kashrus." That was exactly what I was complaining about.
Maybe so, but that was not what I was talking about. I was talking
about consuming a mixture of grape juice and apple juice. I wasn't
talking about anything else and wanted to know if those two are ALWAYS
prohibited in a mixture to be consumed. You didn't address that then.
>
> As Meir B. pointed out, foods can be prohibited for Jewish consumption for
> a number of reasons - among these include foods made from a prohibited
> species, food made from a permitted species but not killed and prepared in
> the proper way, meat that would otherwise be permitted but is mixed with
> dairy, etc. One of these classifications of prohibited food is "grape
> juice that was handled by a non-Jew, unless the grape juice was boiled
> first."
Not what I asked.
>
>> Ham, no matter how it is handled or by whom, is prohibited to be consumed.
>> Shellfish, no matter how it is handled or by whom, is prohibited to be
>> consumed.
>
> Correct. And a nice, certified Empire chicken is permitted to be consumed,
> as is a hunk of certified mozzarella cheese. But put the two together into
> a sandwich, and boom - prohibited.
....and _THAT_ is what I was asking --- and not previously answered.
>
>> Now grape juice........
>
>> _THAT_ was my question.
>
>>> juice is the same as wine - if a non-Jew handles it, then Jews are
>>> prohibited to drink it. "Kosher" grape juice is supervised to ensure that
>>> only Jews handle the juice until it's been boiled. Once boiled (mevushal)
>>> it is permitted for non-Jews to handle it.
>
>> Then grape juice is _not_ prohibited and drinking a mixture of grape
>> juice and apple juice is _not_ prohibited. (Meir said it was.)
>
> I presume Meir was referring to commercially-produced grape juice, which
> is prohibited because they have non-Jews helping to make it. It's true
Maybe. No, not maybe -- probably. However, that was not what he said.
> that one can make permitted grape juice, and then subsequently turn it
> into permitted wine, but it's different from apple juice (or apple wine,
> for that matter) in that apple juice made "the normal way," that is, in a
> regular plant by average Americans, would inherently be permitted unless
> they actively do something to make it forbidden (such as adding grape
> juice, or adding a colorant made from insects) whereas grape juice made
> "the normal way" would be inherently prohibited.
>
> I am very carefully avoiding the word "kosher" here - because that's the
> point you seem to be getting stuck on, which actually supports the point I
> was originally making - namely, "not kosher" isn't the only reason food
> can be prohibited, even if people use that label as a generalized synonym
> for "prohibited to be eaten."
So was I. I never once referred to kosher other than just above when I
used KLP.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> Shelly. You've put your stubborn hat on again, I see. Recall, if you will,
>No, Steve, I think you are.
Yeah, but I'm rubber and you're glue... :-)
>Maybe so, but that was not what I was talking about. I was talking
>about consuming a mixture of grape juice and apple juice. I wasn't
>talking about anything else and wanted to know if those two are ALWAYS
>prohibited in a mixture to be consumed. You didn't address that then.
What ARE you talking about, Shelly? You've been told at least 8 times now
that it's not the apple juice that's the issue, it's not the mixture
that's the problem. It's the grape juice that's the problem. I think that
was clear from the very first post (Cindy was asking about drinking
commercially produced apple juice which might have some amount of grape
juice in it)
>Not what I asked.
I have no idea what you're asking - your question doesn't make sense.
>> Correct. And a nice, certified Empire chicken is permitted to be consumed,
>> as is a hunk of certified mozzarella cheese. But put the two together into
>> a sandwich, and boom - prohibited.
>....and _THAT_ is what I was asking --- and not previously answered.
What? What is what you were asking? Why do I think you've formed the wrong
conclusion here? It's not about mixtures, it's about grape juice. I just
referenced this mixture to counter your assertion that anything prohibited
is prohibited ab initio and is unconditional, like ham. Some things can be
made in a permitted way or a non-permitted way - like cow, or grape juice.
>> I presume Meir was referring to commercially-produced grape juice, which
>> is prohibited because they have non-Jews helping to make it. It's true
>Maybe. No, not maybe -- probably. However, that was not what he said.
There's a little thing called "context," Shelly. He was answering Cindy's
question. Cindy was talking about commercially produced juice - so I
presume Meir didn't feel the need to repeat that part, since it was
already the topic. And even though he didn't say it, you asked your
question and I responded providing that context - and yet you persist...
>So was I. I never once referred to kosher other than just above when I
>used KLP.
Right, but "KLP" in this case was part of the problem / confusion I think,
as it's making three completely independent assertions: 1) this grape
juice is permitted for Jews to drink because it was handled only by Jews
until being boiled 2) this grape juice is kosher because it has not come
in contact with any non-kosher ingredients and 3) this grape juice is
permitted for use on Pesach because it contains no chometz and 4) this
grapde juice is permitted for use on Pesach by Ashkenazim because it
contains no kitniyot.
My initial point in this thread is it seems to me those four categories
are different, and lumping them all together is confusing. But, Meir B.
seems to be saying that once prohibited the same rules apply to all,
although come to think of it that's not exactly true since the percentages
are different for nullification as just one example.
Note that the rationale for these four is completely different - 1 is
rabbinic, 2 and 3 are Torah prohibitions, and 4 is a "foolish custom" that
people nevertheless adhere to, presumably because they believe if they
don't something bad will happen. So to me the 4 are quite different.
--s
--
sheldonlg
> In<ipbjka$ob1$1...@dont-email.me> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>
>>> Shelly. You've put your stubborn hat on again, I see. Recall, if you will,
>
>> No, Steve, I think you are.
>
> Yeah, but I'm rubber and you're glue... :-)
>
>> Maybe so, but that was not what I was talking about. I was talking
>> about consuming a mixture of grape juice and apple juice. I wasn't
>> talking about anything else and wanted to know if those two are ALWAYS
>> prohibited in a mixture to be consumed. You didn't address that then.
>
> What ARE you talking about, Shelly? You've been told at least 8 times now
> that it's not the apple juice that's the issue, it's not the mixture
> that's the problem. It's the grape juice that's the problem. I think that
> was clear from the very first post (Cindy was asking about drinking
> commercially produced apple juice which might have some amount of grape
> juice in it)
>
>> Not what I asked.
>
> I have no idea what you're asking - your question doesn't make sense.
Is grape juice [intrinsicly] forbidden? The answer is "no".
>
>>> Correct. And a nice, certified Empire chicken is permitted to be consumed,
>>> as is a hunk of certified mozzarella cheese. But put the two together into
>>> a sandwich, and boom - prohibited.
>
>> ....and _THAT_ is what I was asking --- and not previously answered.
>
> What? What is what you were asking? Why do I think you've formed the wrong
Is grape juice [intrinsicly] forbidden? The answer is "no".
> conclusion here? It's not about mixtures, it's about grape juice. I just
> referenced this mixture to counter your assertion that anything prohibited
> is prohibited ab initio and is unconditional, like ham. Some things can be
> made in a permitted way or a non-permitted way - like cow, or grape juice.
>
>>> I presume Meir was referring to commercially-produced grape juice, which
>>> is prohibited because they have non-Jews helping to make it. It's true
>
>> Maybe. No, not maybe -- probably. However, that was not what he said.
>
> There's a little thing called "context," Shelly. He was answering Cindy's
Yes, there is a little thing called "context". Steve, I asked about
plain old, straightforward, by itself, the object itself, grape juice.
I did that in the context of a mixture, because that was the original
question. I also said to put aside all other considerations such as
preparation and handling. I was only concerned about the mixing of
grape juice with apple juice [for consumption]. Meir B. said, in
response to the question in the context I framed, that the grape juice
was forbidden. I don't think he meant that -- in that "context".
> question. Cindy was talking about commercially produced juice - so I
> presume Meir didn't feel the need to repeat that part, since it was
> already the topic. And even though he didn't say it, you asked your
> question and I responded providing that context - and yet you persist...
>
>> So was I. I never once referred to kosher other than just above when I
>> used KLP.
>
> Right, but "KLP" in this case was part of the problem / confusion I think,
> as it's making three completely independent assertions: 1) this grape
> juice is permitted for Jews to drink because it was handled only by Jews
> until being boiled 2) this grape juice is kosher because it has not come
> in contact with any non-kosher ingredients and 3) this grape juice is
> permitted for use on Pesach because it contains no chometz and 4) this
> grapde juice is permitted for use on Pesach by Ashkenazim because it
> contains no kitniyot.
>
> My initial point in this thread is it seems to me those four categories
> are different, and lumping them all together is confusing. But, Meir B.
> seems to be saying that once prohibited the same rules apply to all,
> although come to think of it that's not exactly true since the percentages
> are different for nullification as just one example.
>
> Note that the rationale for these four is completely different - 1 is
> rabbinic, 2 and 3 are Torah prohibitions, and 4 is a "foolish custom" that
> people nevertheless adhere to, presumably because they believe if they
> don't something bad will happen. So to me the 4 are quite different.
Fine. But that was not the extremely simple question I was asking.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> I have no idea what you're asking - your question doesn't make sense.
>Is grape juice [intrinsicly] forbidden? The answer is "no".
Grape juice is like cow - it's permitted if you process it a certain way,
otherwise it's prohibited. Is that "intrinsically" forbidden? I'm not
sure.
That gets into the whole discussion we used to have here (perhaps while
you were away) regarding the notion of "everything which is not forbidden
is permitted." In my view, that's not a fair statement - I don't think
"Jews are permitted to eat cows and drink grape juice" is a plainly true
statement, it's a conditionally true statement. It's not true unless you
add the "if" ("if it's prepared correctly...")
>> What? What is what you were asking? Why do I think you've formed the wrong
>Is grape juice [intrinsicly] forbidden? The answer is "no".
Depends on what you mean by intrinsically forbidden. It's not
categorically prohibited, like pork or shellfish. That's true. But that's
only one category of forbidden food.
>Yes, there is a little thing called "context". Steve, I asked about
>plain old, straightforward, by itself, the object itself, grape juice.
>I did that in the context of a mixture, because that was the original
>question. I also said to put aside all other considerations such as
>preparation and handling. I was only concerned about the mixing of
>grape juice with apple juice [for consumption]. Meir B. said, in
>response to the question in the context I framed, that the grape juice
>was forbidden. I don't think he meant that -- in that "context".
Is sex inherently forbidden, Shelly? That's a yes or no question - is it
prohibited, or not? Keep in mind if you say "no," then I'm going to
reply "Shelly says it's permitted to sleep with your dog," and if you say
"yes" then I'm going to say "Shelly says it's forbidden to sleep with your
wife." My point being, of course, that it's NOT a yes or no question.
>Fine. But that was not the extremely simple question I was asking.
You are trying to reduce the question beyond simplicity. Are Jews
permitted to eat beef? Yes. So that means Jews can go to the store and buy
any commercially-produced beef? No. So which is it, is beef prohibited or
not?
Exact same thing here - are Jews permitted to drink grape juice? Yes. So
that means Jews can go to the store and buy and commercially-produced
grape juice? No. Is it the same as apple juice? No. So you tell me, is
that "intrinsically prohibited" or not?
--s
--
sheldonlg
> In<ipbl8m$bg9$1...@dont-email.me> sheldonlg<shel...@thevillages.net> writes:
>
>>> I have no idea what you're asking - your question doesn't make sense.
>
>> Is grape juice [intrinsicly] forbidden? The answer is "no".
>
> Grape juice is like cow - it's permitted if you process it a certain way,
> otherwise it's prohibited. Is that "intrinsically" forbidden? I'm not
> sure.
>
> That gets into the whole discussion we used to have here (perhaps while
> you were away) regarding the notion of "everything which is not forbidden
> is permitted." In my view, that's not a fair statement - I don't think
> "Jews are permitted to eat cows and drink grape juice" is a plainly true
> statement, it's a conditionally true statement. It's not true unless you
> add the "if" ("if it's prepared correctly...")
>
>>> What? What is what you were asking? Why do I think you've formed the wrong
>
>> Is grape juice [intrinsicly] forbidden? The answer is "no".
>
> Depends on what you mean by intrinsically forbidden. It's not
> categorically prohibited, like pork or shellfish. That's true. But that's
I think 'es gotit. By George 'es gotit.
> only one category of forbidden food.
>
>> Yes, there is a little thing called "context". Steve, I asked about
>> plain old, straightforward, by itself, the object itself, grape juice.
>> I did that in the context of a mixture, because that was the original
>> question. I also said to put aside all other considerations such as
>> preparation and handling. I was only concerned about the mixing of
>> grape juice with apple juice [for consumption]. Meir B. said, in
>> response to the question in the context I framed, that the grape juice
>> was forbidden. I don't think he meant that -- in that "context".
>
> Is sex inherently forbidden, Shelly? That's a yes or no question - is it
> prohibited, or not? Keep in mind if you say "no," then I'm going to
> reply "Shelly says it's permitted to sleep with your dog," and if you say
> "yes" then I'm going to say "Shelly says it's forbidden to sleep with your
> wife." My point being, of course, that it's NOT a yes or no question.
>
>> Fine. But that was not the extremely simple question I was asking.
>
> You are trying to reduce the question beyond simplicity. Are Jews
No, you are trying to complicate it beyond what I am asking.
> permitted to eat beef? Yes. So that means Jews can go to the store and buy
> any commercially-produced beef? No. So which is it, is beef prohibited or
> not?
Answer: Beef is not prohibited.
>
> Exact same thing here - are Jews permitted to drink grape juice? Yes. So
> that means Jews can go to the store and buy and commercially-produced
> grape juice? No. Is it the same as apple juice? No. So you tell me, is
> that "intrinsically prohibited" or not?
Answer: No, it is not prohibited.
--
Shelly
cindys
> On 4/28/2011 12:55 AM, Steve Goldfarb wrote:
>
snip
> I was talking
> about consuming a mixture of grape juice and apple juice. I wasn't
> talking about anything else and wanted to know if those two are ALWAYS
> prohibited in a mixture to be consumed.
snip
----
To be honest, now I think I'm confused. I understand Shelly's question
to be whether or not there is a prohibition on mixing Kedem apple
juice with Kedem grape juice in one's kitchen. As far as I know, there
is no kashrus issue with making a mixed juice drink (assuming it is
all kosher-certified juice), even if the drink includes grape juice.
If there is a halachic problem with this mixture, then I have learned
something new today.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
Well, Cindy, _YOU_ understood my simple question. I knew there had to
be kosher grape juice (as I had seen that with a KLP), and wanted to
know if we could consume a mixture of that with apple juice. Simple
question that Steve kept on and on about.
--
Shelly
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> snip
There is no problem mixing Kedem apple juice with Kedem grape juice
in your kitchen. There might be a question as to the proper blessing
for such a mixture. :-)
cindys
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > On Apr 28, 6:00=A0am, sheldonlg <sheldo...@thevillages.net> wrote:
> >> On 4/28/2011 12:55 AM, Steve Goldfarb wrote:
> > snip
> >> I was talking about consuming a mixture of grape juice and apple
> >> juice. I wasn't talking about anything else and wanted to know if
> >> those two are ALWAYS prohibited in a mixture to be consumed.
> > snip
> > ----
> > To be honest, now I think I'm confused. I understand Shelly's question
> > to be whether or not there is a prohibition on mixing Kedem apple
> > juice with Kedem grape juice in one's kitchen. As far as I know, there
> > is no kashrus issue with making a mixed juice drink (assuming it is
> > all kosher-certified juice), even if the drink includes grape juice.
> > If there is a halachic problem with this mixture, then I have learned
> > something new today.
>
> There is no problem mixing Kedem apple juice with Kedem grape juice
> in your kitchen. There might be a question as to the proper blessing
> for such a mixture. :-)
Thank you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>Well, Cindy, _YOU_ understood my simple question. I knew there had to
>be kosher grape juice (as I had seen that with a KLP), and wanted to
>know if we could consume a mixture of that with apple juice. Simple
>question that Steve kept on and on about.
On 4/27, you wrote "Is it prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice?"
I responded to you - "Why would it be? I did answer your question - no, of
course it's not prohibited to mix apple and grape juice."
So what are YOU going on and on about?
--s
--
sheldonlg
You kept on and on about special conditions, etc. All I wanted was
about the mixing of the two. My question derived from thinking it might
be similar to the prohibition of wearing a garment made of both wool and
linen. So, I asked.
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>> So what are YOU going on and on about?
>You kept on and on about special conditions, etc. All I wanted was
>about the mixing of the two. My question derived from thinking it might
>be similar to the prohibition of wearing a garment made of both wool and
>linen. So, I asked.
And I answered the question - 8 or 9 times. And yet you kept responding
"why don't you answer my question?" Why?
--s
--
cindys
> In <ipbtan$a3...@dont-email.me> sheldonlg <sheldo...@thevillages.net> writes:
>
> >> So what are YOU going on and on about?
> >You kept on and on about special conditions, etc. All I wanted was
> >about the mixing of the two. My question derived from thinking it might
> >be similar to the prohibition of wearing a garment made of both wool and
> >linen. So, I asked.
>
> And I answered the question - 8 or 9 times. And yet you kept responding
> "why don't you answer my question?" Why?
Yes, you responded many times but not to the question he was asking
(that I saw anyway). You were answering his question by explaining
what mevushal meant and then discussing about mixing apple juice with
mevushal grape juice. He was just asking a simple question of whether
there was a generic prohibition on a mixed juice drink.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
sheldonlg
THANK YOU, CINDY!
--
Shelly
Steve Goldfarb
>Yes, you responded many times but not to the question he was asking
>(that I saw anyway). You were answering his question by explaining
>what mevushal meant and then discussing about mixing apple juice with
>mevushal grape juice. He was just asking a simple question of whether
>there was a generic prohibition on a mixed juice drink.
Sorry, but I'm utterly confused by this whole conversation.
I don't see how I could have been clearer - I said repeatedly that it's
not the mixing that's the problem, it's the grape juice that's the
problem. Meir B. said the same thing but wrote "It _is_ prohibited to
drink the resulting mixture," meaning it's prohibited because it has grape
juice in it not because it's a "mixture" and Shelly seemingly
mis-interpreted that.
Whatever.
--s
--
Steve Goldfarb
>THANK YOU, CINDY!
Your very first post was a mis-attribution, which is the only reason I
responded. Cindy wrote (and you had it mis-attributed to me)
"It's not about a vessel in which grape juice has been cooked. It's about
a small amount of grape juice being mixed in with the apple juice."
You then asked:
"Is there a prohibition against mixing grape juice with apple juice? If
so, then why?"
Very next post, from me -
"Hey, I didn't say that, Cindy did.
The concern isn't the mixing.... [I then went on to explain why the grape
juice is prohibited]
There's your answer. Is it prohibited to mix? The concern isn't the
mixing.
Asked and answered.
Then you ask again:
"Is it prohibited to mix apple juice and grape juice?"
To which I replied:
"Why would it be? I did answer your question - no, of course it's not
prohibited to mix apple and grape juice. It's prohibited to drink grape
juice that has been touched by a non-Jew prior to being boiled."
That's twice -- it doesn't get any more explicit than that. "Is it
prohibited to mix? No of course it's not prohibited to mix."
So what's the problem?
--s
--
cindys
> In <d319ce35-4834-402c-84ec-82cfb37c6...@hd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >Yes, you responded many times but not to the question he was asking
> >(that I saw anyway). You were answering his question by explaining
> >what mevushal meant and then discussing about mixing apple juice with
> >mevushal grape juice. He was just asking a simple question of whether
> >there was a generic prohibition on a mixed juice drink.
>
> Sorry, but I'm utterly confused by this whole conversation.
>
> I don't see how I could have been clearer - I said repeatedly that it's
> not the mixing that's the problem, it's the grape juice that's the
> problem.
Exactly. But your response was too esoteric for the question he was
asking. You were saying "well, it's permitted as long as circumstance
X isn't in the equation." and he kept saying,
"Forget about circumstance X. Is it permitted, yes or no?" and your
answer kept including circumstance X as part of your response/
explanation.
He wasn't asking what was the problem with the grape juice, (mixing
grape juice with another juice versus the grape juice itself). He just
wanted to know if it was okay (halachically) to have a mixed juice
drink.
>Meir B. said the same thing but wrote "It _is_ prohibited to
> drink the resulting mixture," meaning it's prohibited because it has grape
> juice in it not because it's a "mixture" and Shelly seemingly
> mis-interpreted that.
It's not that he misinterpreted the response. He was just asking a
totally different question. His question was the equivalent of asking:
"Can I mix orange juice with grapefruit juice?," or "Can I mix
raspberry juice with cranberry juice?" All he was looking for was a
simple statement of "Does halacha generically permit the mixing to two
juices together?" The answer he was looking for was:
1. Yes. (the correct response)
or
2. No because halacha does not permit the mixing of two species, just
like wool cannot be mixed with linen.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>It's not that he misinterpreted the response. He was just asking a
>totally different question. His question was the equivalent of asking:
>"Can I mix orange juice with grapefruit juice?," or "Can I mix
>raspberry juice with cranberry juice?" All he was looking for was a
>simple statement of "Does halacha generically permit the mixing to two
>juices together?" The answer he was looking for was:
>1. Yes. (the correct response)
>or
>2. No because halacha does not permit the mixing of two species, just
>like wool cannot be mixed with linen.
And I gave him precisely that answer twice.
--s
--
cindys
> In <cc9c5fb0-1664-4d4a-9536-96322feb1...@q21g2000vbs.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >It's not that he misinterpreted the response. He was just asking a
> >totally different question. His question was the equivalent of asking:
> >"Can I mix orange juice with grapefruit juice?," or "Can I mix
> >raspberry juice with cranberry juice?" All he was looking for was a
> >simple statement of "Does halacha generically permit the mixing to two
> >juices together?" The answer he was looking for was:
> >1. Yes. (the correct response)
> >or
> >2. No because halacha does not permit the mixing of two species, just
> >like wool cannot be mixed with linen.
>
> And I gave him precisely that answer twice.
But not with a one-word response (yes or no).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Steve Goldfarb
>> And I gave him precisely that answer twice.
>----
>But not with a one-word response (yes or no).
Well, I'll answer how I want to answer - and I did clearly say "no" twice.
I felt a one word answer wasn't sufficient because the way he was asking
the question made me think he'd misunderstand a one-word answer, and I was
correct - in another post he responded "Then grape juice is _not_
prohibited and drinking a mixture of grape juice and apple juice is _not_
prohibited (Meir said it was)"
"Does your dog bite?"
"No."
(sounds of dog biting)
"I thought you said your dog doesn't bite?"
"That's not my dog."
--s
--
cindys
> In <3fe3c23e-2a40-4ba3-9c15-d7070941f...@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> >> And I gave him precisely that answer twice.
> >----
> >But not with a one-word response (yes or no).
>
> Well, I'll answer how I want to answer - and I did clearly say "no" twice.
Just sayin'
> I felt a one word answer wasn't sufficient because the way he was asking
> the question made me think he'd misunderstand a one-word answer, and I was
> correct - in another post he responded "Then grape juice is _not_
> prohibited and drinking a mixture of grape juice and apple juice is _not_
> prohibited (Meir said it was)"
I guess I missed the part where you were disputing Meir.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.