Jews who hate Reform Jews
Joel Shurkin
cindys
"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> >From Haaretz.
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>
-------
So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before Yom
Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Eliyahu
The error is in confusing the movement with the members. We've all
known Reform Jews who are much better Jews than some O Jews, and vice
versa. e.g., Who is the "better" Jew? -- a Reform Jew who is fasting
on Yom Kippur and spending the day at his synagogue, or an "ostensibly-
Orthodox" Jew who is non-observant and spends the day at the beach
enjoying a picnic with his family? I disagree with much of what
Reform is about, but I hesitate to impute what I see as the failings
of the movement to the motivation or goals of the members.
Eliyahu
yzk
>
> The error is in confusing the movement with the members. We've all
> known Reform Jews who are much better Jews than some O Jews, and vice
> versa. e.g., Who is the "better" Jew? -- a Reform Jew who is fasting
> on Yom Kippur and spending the day at his synagogue, or an "ostensibly-
> Orthodox" Jew who is non-observant and spends the day at the beach
> enjoying a picnic with his family?
Ostensibly Orthodox? You mean a faker.
Like me, you know that a uniform does not make someone into something
else. My US Army uniform during the Viet Nam War did not transform me
into a baby-killer. I'm sure yours, which you wore for a much longer
time than I did, didn't either.
Better JEW (vs. better person)? That would depend on the definition of
JUDAISM.
I disagree with much of what
> Reform is about, but I hesitate to impute what I see as the failings
> of the movement to the motivation or goals of the members.
>
> Eliyahu
In my unhumble opinion, Reform is not Judaism, but a separate religion.
This does NOT mean that all Halakhically-Jewish Reform Jews are not
Jewish, - *THEY ARE* - but rather that they are not practicing Judaism,
but "Reform-Judaism."
I believe this is almost always done out of not having truly experienced
the real thing as practiced by people *whose conduct toward their
fellow-Man*, as well as toward Hashem, is impeccable.
Gmar Chatimah Tovah to all my fellow-Jews.
Yaakov K. in Y_m
Abe Kohen
> >From Haaretz.
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>
Yes, so what's the hidush? That's been the prevailing attitude in Israel as
far back as I can remember. What makes it news?
Hatima Tova,
Abe
09-19-07
R'foo-ah shlay-ma to all victims of Islamofascist terror
J J Levin
news:46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Cindy, I read the piece. It seems to me that the writer raised the issue
that many SECULAR Israelis are the ones who consider that Reform Jews are
not really Jewish. Moreover, Ha'aretz did not raise the issue. The article
was written in respose to another article written in Yedioth Aharonoth.
Jay
cindys
"Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:fcslea$up9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> "Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote
>> >From Haaretz.
>>
>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>
>
> Yes, so what's the hidush? That's been the prevailing attitude in Israel
> as
> far back as I can remember. What makes it news?
It was nothing more than an attempt to incite the readers of Ha'aretz (by
the editor/publisher) and the non-O participants of SCJM (by the one who
initiated the thread and provided the weblink).
Gmar Chatimah Tovah to all my fellow-Jews.
---Cindy S.
Herman Rubin
cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
The Temple was destroyed because of bad politics on
the part of the Jews; their internal divisions and
the Roman Empire coming up with a decent commander,
and also with economic pressures. This is equally
apparent when the bar Kochba revolt was defeated.
It is not necessary to blame ourselves for all of
our setbacks; Amalek fell on the Jews in Sinai,
and the Jews have had oodles of enemies throughout
history.
However, it seems clear that at least many of the
Orthodox do hate Reform (and Conservative) Jews.
It is partly that they are torn between denying
that those they call Jews, who are practicing the
Reform or Conservative version of Judaism, are
not observing what they consider to be the Jewish
way, but they insist that they are Jews and cannot
be thrown out.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Eliyahu
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> >> >From Haaretz.
>
> >>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>
> > Yes, so what's the hidush? That's been the prevailing attitude in Israel
> > as
> > far back as I can remember. What makes it news?
>
> --------
> It was nothing more than an attempt to incite the readers of Ha'aretz (by
> the editor/publisher) and the non-O participants of SCJM (by the one who
> initiated the thread and provided the weblink).
> Gmar Chatimah Tovah to all my fellow-Jews.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Remember, Cindy, the "anti-Reform" Jews cited in the article were non-
observant themselves; not orthopractic O Jews. They're the ones for
whom "the shul I don't attend is Orthodox", not the ones who actually
attend. It was really a criticism of two-faced attitudes in which
people who aren't practicing Judaism themselves are dumping on those
who do practice, but in a manner they disapprove of.
Eliyahu
Giora Drachsler
news:46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
From more than one source, including a documentary TV programme, I have read
or hear that O prefer a secular and not a reform, because the latter "are
not Jews".
Usually I ignore the stupidity that from time to time emerges from O
circles, but
these remarks I remember well and I wonder if believes and intelligence are
somewhat connected, inverselly.
--
Giora Drachsler
Jerusalem, Israel
cindys
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:cttIi.18$mS7...@newsfe12.lga...
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> >From Haaretz.
>>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>>
>> -------
>> So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>> concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>> anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before
>> Yom Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
>
> Cindy, I read the piece. It seems to me that the writer raised the issue
> that many SECULAR Israelis are the ones who consider that Reform Jews are
> not really Jewish.
Yes, you are correct that in this particular article, the secular Israelis
are the ones who are eschewing Reform, but even at that, and despite the
cited "quotation" where the guy on the bicycle ostensibly says "the Reformim
aren't Jewish," the article goes on to describe how the real issue is that
the seculars consider that the Reform synagogue liturgy is not Judaically
valid because certain parts of it have been excised. The Reform may find
this attitude [regarding their synagogue services] offensive, but it is
still not quite the same as asserting that secular Israelis generally
believe Reform Jews are "not really Jewish."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
J J Levin
Cindy, I read the piece. It seems to me that the writer raised the issue
that many SECULAR Israelis are the ones who consider that Reform Jews are
not really Jewish.
He even mentions the old saying that "the synagogue I never attend is
Orthodox".
Moreover, Ha'aretz did not raise the issue. The article
was written in response to another article written in Yedioth Aharonoth.
Jay
Tim Meushaw
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> >From Haaretz.
>>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>>
>> -------
>> So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>> concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>> anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before
>> Yom Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
>
> From more than one source, including a documentary TV programme, I have read
> or hear that O prefer a secular and not a reform, because the latter "are
> not Jews".
Are any of those O sources? I've heard from more than one source that
Jews control the world's economy and media, but that doesn't make it
true.
> Usually I ignore the stupidity that from time to time emerges from O
> circles, but
> these remarks I remember well and I wonder if believes and intelligence are
> somewhat connected, inverselly.
I often wonder that, too, but usually I find it's not an inverse.
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
Don Levey
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:fcslea$up9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
> > "Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote
> >> >From Haaretz.
> >>
> >> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
> >>
> >
> > Yes, so what's the hidush? That's been the prevailing attitude in Israel
> > as
> > far back as I can remember. What makes it news?
> --------
> It was nothing more than an attempt to incite the readers of Ha'aretz (by
> the editor/publisher) and the non-O participants of SCJM (by the one who
> initiated the thread and provided the weblink).
>
Cindy, you *did* read the article, right?
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
KarenElizabeth
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> >> >From Haaretz.
>
> >>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>
> > Yes, so what's the hidush? That's been the prevailing attitude in Israel
> > as
> > far back as I can remember. What makes it news?
>
> --------
> It was nothing more than an attempt to incite the readers of Ha'aretz (by
> the editor/publisher) and the non-O participants of SCJM (by the one who
> initiated the thread and provided the weblink).
> Gmar Chatimah Tovah to all my fellow-Jews.
> Best regards,
Joel wants to incite the non-O participants in this group against
secular Jews? That would certainly be an interesting turn. Surely
you can't be suggesting that the article was intended to incite anyone
against *O* Jews, since they're only mentioned in passing (the
synagogues we don't attend ...) Unless, of course, we're supposed to
believe that the guy on a bike at the kibbutz gym was O, but I'm
guessing he's not. Even Gafi Amir, quoted from the Yedioth Ahronot
article (which I haven't been able to find) identifies himself as
secular. (""On Yom Kippur they will skip over these two clauses when
they visit the Reform synagogue. Afterwards, they will wear out their
less enlightened and secular friends, like me, with the purifying
experienced (sic) they underwent there."")
Or are you suggesting that we should consider all of these secular
Jews to really be O, and ... well, I'm not really sure what the *and*
would be here.
BTW, perhaps a R member of the group can provide more info, but AFAIK
-- and looking back to my own R days -- R *do* fast, and *do* search
their own souls on Yom Kippur.
Karen Elizabeth
Herman Rubin
>> The error is in confusing the movement with the members. We've all
>> known Reform Jews who are much better Jews than some O Jews, and vice
>> versa. e.g., Who is the "better" Jew? -- a Reform Jew who is fasting
>> on Yom Kippur and spending the day at his synagogue, or an "ostensibly-
>> Orthodox" Jew who is non-observant and spends the day at the beach
>> enjoying a picnic with his family?
>Ostensibly Orthodox? You mean a faker.
>Like me, you know that a uniform does not make someone into something
>else. My US Army uniform during the Viet Nam War did not transform me
>into a baby-killer. I'm sure yours, which you wore for a much longer
>time than I did, didn't either.
>Better JEW (vs. better person)? That would depend on the definition of
>JUDAISM.
> I disagree with much of what
>> Reform is about, but I hesitate to impute what I see as the failings
>> of the movement to the motivation or goals of the members.
>> Eliyahu
>In my unhumble opinion, Reform is not Judaism, but a separate religion.
>This does NOT mean that all Halakhically-Jewish Reform Jews are not
>Jewish, - *THEY ARE* - but rather that they are not practicing Judaism,
>but "Reform-Judaism."
They are practicing Judaism, but not Orthodox Judaism.
>I believe this is almost always done out of not having truly experienced
>the real thing as practiced by people *whose conduct toward their
>fellow-Man*, as well as toward Hashem, is impeccable.
>Gmar Chatimah Tovah to all my fellow-Jews.
>Yaakov K. in Y_m
The Orthodox do not have a monopoly on Judaism. Moreover,
they seem to refuse to let secular knowledge interfere
with their tenets; most of this knowledge is since the
split, but non-Orthodox scholars are unwilling to consider
the idea that the Torah was in the possession of Moses at
Sinai to be at all tenable.
The only maligning of the rabbis is their opinion that
they were the repository of Judaism. They could not know
of the ancient history (before Greece and Rome) as nobody
could read or otherwise figure it out, other than the
small amount of fairly accurate material from the time of
the Kingdom on. In fact, even the early Reform could not
know more than that there were material from ancient
civilizations. Also, they believed too hard that God had
given them all the answers in the Torah, which even early
in the Enlightenment could not be accepted by those who
were following the new discoveries.
God has given us the structure of the universe; our moral
philosophy must remain subject to its limits. Keep this
in mind.
Matt Silberstein
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> in
<46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
people Jews.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
cindys
"Herman Rubin" <hru...@stat.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:fcu7ej$3k...@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
snip>
> However, it seems clear that at least many of the
> Orthodox do hate Reform (and Conservative) Jews.
I would like to think that nobody "hates" anybody, but if there is "hatred"
it certainly works both ways. In my city, there is an incredible amount of
animosity directed toward the Orthodox from non-Orthodox Jewish
institutions. Much more so than in the other direction.
> It is partly that they are torn between denying
> that those they call Jews, who are practicing the
> Reform or Conservative version of Judaism, are
> not observing what they consider to be the Jewish
> way, but they insist that they are Jews and cannot
> be thrown out.
I had a little trouble parsing the above sentence, but I believe it means
that the O are ostensibly torn between denying that C and R are really
Jewish versus claiming that C and R are not observing the the Jewish way but
are technically Jewish and therefore cannot be "thrown out" (even though the
O would do so if they could). Never in my entire life have I heard any O Jew
express either of these views. In my entire life, I have never heard an O
Jew express a desire to "throw out" another Jew from Judaism. Nor have I
ever heard any O Jew deny that someone is Jewish solely on the basis that
the person identifies R or C. On the contrary, all of the O that I know are
focused on doing kiruv (outreach) to encourage non-O Jews to be more
observant. The goal is to bring them near, not to throw them out. I am
consistently receiving requests for donations to organizations like Oorah,
Ohr Somayach, Sinai Academy, Horeini, Chabad etc all of whom are focused on
bringing fellow Jews closer to observance, not disowning them.
And for you to re-invoke this hateful canard (that O Jews hate R and C Jews
or don't consider them to be really Jewish) during the ten days of
repentance is inexcusable.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Eliyahu" <lro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190298488....@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Yeah, I got it after I read the article more carefully. Thanks.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:hli5f3t1tmcvjgodp...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC), in
> soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> in
> <46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> >From Haaretz.
>>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>>
>>-------
>>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before
>>Yom
>>Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>
> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> people Jews.
I'm assuming the deceased (and by extension the funeral) was R or C based on
what you wrote above. In all likelihood, her Orthodox sons wanted to recite
the traditional/additional prayers for their mother that were not included
in the service, and they probably also did wish to do so while seated
amongst a group of mixed men and women. You clearly did not know the reason
for their actions, so you decided to say the ugliest thing you could think
of. My "best explanation" for your "best explanation" is pure hatefulness.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
Should have read: "...they probably also did NOT wish to do so while seated
---Cindy S.
J J Levin
I have attended O funerals (most recently for my father in Israel) as well
as R funerals here. The grave site ceremonies are virtually identical and
very simple.
Maybe you are correct. Maybe the O sons wanted to say their prayers while
not seated among a group of mixed men and women. But why assume the worst
about Matt? Why accuse him of "pure hatefulness"? What if he is right and
there was a large bunch of non-Jews there and the sons did not wish to pray
in their midst? What if the sons simply wanted to commune by themselves in
remembering their mother? Why do you always assume the worst about people?
Jay
Don Levey
>
> BTW, perhaps a R member of the group can provide more info, but AFAIK
> -- and looking back to my own R days -- R *do* fast, and *do* search
> their own souls on Yom Kippur.
>
like the secular O Jews.
cindys
"Giora Drachsler" <gi...@huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:fctt02$qtd$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> >From Haaretz.
>>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>>
>> -------
>> So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>> concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>> anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before
>> Yom Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
>
> From more than one source, including a documentary TV programme, I have
> read
> or hear that O prefer a secular and not a reform, because the latter "are
> not Jews".
Well this is a new spin on an old canard [false, deliberately misleading].
Now, O Jews prefer secular Jews to Reform Jews, and again believe that
Reform Jews are "not really Jewish"? How does that old line go that if an
non-truth is repeated often enough, people will come to believe it.
Even in my community, I keep hearing that O Jews believe that R Jews are
"not really Jewish." Of course, the one who are saying this are the R and
not the O. I gotta wonder who keeps telling R Jews this nonsense and for
what purpose? It's certainly not coming out of the mouths of any O Jews that
I know. And this claim that Os believe seculars "are Jewish" but R "are not
Jewish," that's a new one on me.
Again, I find it appalling to read this sort of hatefulness during the ten
days.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate Reform
Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Lee Ratner
To many Orthodox, the answer would be the latter. Their first
preference
would be for all Jews to be genuinely Orthodox. Their next
preference would be
for Jews not to practice anything but recognize Orthodox Judaism as
true Judaism.
This is because they see non-Orthodox Judaism as heretically and non-
practice is better
than heretical practice to many Orthodox Jews.
>
> Eliyahu
Micha Berger
> Remember, Cindy, the "anti-Reform" Jews cited in the article were non-
As written here many many times.... The percentage of C or R Israelis is
smaller than many surveys' margin of error. The typical non-O Israeli
believes that the Judaism he doesn't quite follow is O.
O Jews are simply called "datiim", literally "religious". The notion of
being religious Jews in other ways simply isn't within the culture.
GCT!
-mi
--
Micha Berger In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507 a spirit of purity. - Rabbi Israel Salanter
cindys
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jgBIi.47$wz2...@newsfe12.lga...
Now, it's my turn to ask if you actually read his post. Because he said his
best explanation for why the O sons had done this was they didn't consider
the other people (ostensibly non-O Jews) to be Jews.
>What if he is right and
> there was a large bunch of non-Jews there
That's not what he said. He didn't say there were a bunch of non-Jews. He
said there were people whom the O sons "did not consider to be Jews." And
this was in the midst of a thread where a bunch of R Jews are making the
claim that O Jews don't consider R Jews to be bonafide Jews.
>and the sons did not wish to pray in their midst? What if the sons simply
>wanted to commune by themselves in remembering their mother?
And what if they did? Nothing wrong with that at all. But Matt apparently
seemed to think there was.
>Why do you always assume the worst about people?
Huh? Why are you ask me why *I* assume the worst about people? Why not ask
Matt? He was the one doing the assuming, and his statement was unequivocal
and it was ugly, so let's not turn this around and pretend like this is just
some big misunderstanding or that I am twisting his words. This is not about
me.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
chsw
Torah U'Madda isn't a constructive engagement, in your opinion?
chsw
Don Levey
>
> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> people Jews.
>
Perhaps they separated themselves because there were women in the group,
and they didn't want to daven in a mixed-sex group?
Herman Rubin
KarenElizabeth <karenel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sep 20, 8:42 am, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>> news:fcslea$up9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...> "Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@gmail.com> wrote
>> >> >From Haaretz.
>> >>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
................
>Or are you suggesting that we should consider all of these secular
>Jews to really be O, and ... well, I'm not really sure what the *and*
>would be here.
>BTW, perhaps a R member of the group can provide more info, but AFAIK
>-- and looking back to my own R days -- R *do* fast, and *do* search
>their own souls on Yom Kippur.
Very definitely so. I did fast until I developed diabetes,
and under medication it would be dangerous to do so. I am
quite sure our rabbi fasts, and I would be surprised if
most members did not.
As for searching our souls, we might not have as many
repetitions as the Orthodox, but is does God care about how
may times we SAY that we repent a particular sin? In fact,
saying it too many times may make it mechanical, and this
would detract from the effect. Enough is sufficient.
>Karen Elizabeth
Tim Meushaw
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC), in
> soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> in
><46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> >From Haaretz.
>>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>>
>>-------
>>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before Yom
>>Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>
> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> people Jews.
Or they were being considerate and didn't want to push their variety
of practices on everyone else if they were the only two Orthodox people
there.
Eliyahu
> In article <1190301035.265306.93...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
> As for searching our souls, we might not have as many
> repetitions as the Orthodox, but is does God care about how
> may times we SAY that we repent a particular sin? In fact,
> saying it too many times may make it mechanical, and this
> would detract from the effect. Enough is sufficient.
>
numerous repetitions before it really sinks in that this includes the
stuff that _I_ do; not just things that others are doing. The prayers
aren't just written for those who are quick on the uptake, but need to
meet the needs of the entire community.
Eliyahu
Don Levey
> In <> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
> >Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
> >> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> >> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> >> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> >> people Jews.
>
> >Perhaps they separated themselves because there were women in the group,
> >and they didn't want to daven in a mixed-sex group?
>
> Or because the Reform rabbi did a service that was not the same, nor
> expressed the same sentiments, as an Orthodox service.
>
> I went to a funeral like that. S____ was a member of our Orthodox synagogue,
> most of his family was Reform. The others arranged the funeral of their father.
> A bunch of us, including the rabbi, came from the Orthodox synagogue. The
> Reform rabbi did his service, left the grave open, and went off with the rest
> of the family for lunch. The Orthodox group moved in, did a second service,
> including filling-in the grave.
>
> I've been to both Orthodox and Conservative funerals. They're pretty
> much identical, including partially filling in the grave (at least covering
> the box in dirt) as part of the service. This Reform service was pretty
> different.
>
While I can't necessarily speak for the content of the service, not
having been to many Orthodox funerals, I've not yet been to a Reform
funeral where the grave was left open as you say. Sometimes everyone
does one shovelful, sometimes the entire grace is filled in, but I've
never seen it left completely open. I'm sorry that there are those
out there who do it like that.
cindys
"Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fd0e99$s6c$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>>> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
>>> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
>>> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
>>> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
>>> people Jews.
>
>>Perhaps they separated themselves because there were women in the group,
>>and they didn't want to daven in a mixed-sex group?
>
> expressed the same sentiments, as an Orthodox service.
>
> I went to a funeral like that. S____ was a member of our Orthodox
> synagogue,
> most of his family was Reform. The others arranged the funeral of their
> father.
> A bunch of us, including the rabbi, came from the Orthodox synagogue. The
> Reform rabbi did his service, left the grave open, and went off with the
> rest
> of the family for lunch. The Orthodox group moved in, did a second
> service,
> including filling-in the grave.
<sarcasm on> You mean it was all about the service and not because your
group didn't consider the Reform group to be Jewish? <sarcasm off>
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
> I've been to both Orthodox and Conservative funerals. They're pretty
> much identical, including partially filling in the grave (at least
> covering
> the box in dirt) as part of the service. This Reform service was pretty
> different.
>
> --
> Jonathan Baker | KVCT, GCT
> jjb...@panix.com | (not Kilovolt Center-Tapped, or Grand Central
> Terminal)
> Blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com/
Don Levey
> "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjb...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:fd0e99$s6c$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> > I went to a funeral like that. S____ was a member of our Orthodox
> > synagogue,
> > most of his family was Reform. The others arranged the funeral of their
> > father.
> > A bunch of us, including the rabbi, came from the Orthodox synagogue. The
> > Reform rabbi did his service, left the grave open, and went off with the
> > rest
> > of the family for lunch. The Orthodox group moved in, did a second
> > service,
> > including filling-in the grave.
> ----------
> <sarcasm on> You mean it was all about the service and not because your
> group didn't consider the Reform group to be Jewish? <sarcasm off>
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
>
Cindy, for what it's worth I've been told that "well you lot aren't
really Jews anyway" on more than one occasion by self-identified
Orthodox Jews. While I don't really consider that representative
of all Orthodox, the attitude really IS out there.
Herman Rubin
cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
We have seen many postings here which have stated that
Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
Judaism is offensive.
Tim Meushaw
> On Sep 21, 3:26 am, Tim Meushaw <meus...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2007-09-20, Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC), in
>> ><46f1be10$0$26379$4c368...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>"Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> >>> >From Haaretz.
>>
>> >>>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>>
>> >>-------
>> >>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>> >>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>> >>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before Yom
>> >>Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>>
>> > My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
>> > friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
>> > by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
>> > else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
>> > people Jews.
>>
>> Or they were being considerate and didn't want to push their variety
>> of practices on everyone else if they were the only two Orthodox people
>> there.
>>
> both interpret this to mean that if we see a person doing something
> which can be judged with either a positive or negative explanation, we
> have an obligation to interpret the act in a positive light. If we
> know that the person is a righteous individual and he does something
> which is almost certainly a negative act that can be interpreted
> positively only by means of a far-fetched explanation, we still cannot
> view him as doing something bad because it's still possible to see the
> act in a positive manner. And Rashi also tells us that those who
> judge others favorably will themselves be judged favorably in the
> Heavenly court. When we choose to make an unfavorable interpretation
> of an otherwise ambiguous act, it tells others more about ourself than
> about the person we're judging.
Maybe this should be one of the weekly postings made to the newsgroup
along with the FAQ and spam policies....
G'mar chatima tova,
Herman Rubin
>Eliyahu
Look at the account of the Temple service which is found in
the prayer books. Hakohen Hagadol did go through a "severe"
period of preparation, but the service itself was rather
short, and the people rejoiced thereafter.
I believe that the claimed purpose of the repetitions and
confessions is to make US less sinful, and no matter how
many times it is said, for some it will not sink in, and
for others it can become too much a ritual to have meaning.
I am not convinced that much sinks in by repetition here
or elsewhere. If they were done somewhat differently each
time, it might have a much greater effect, and it should
be clear that we are not trying to memorize the list of sins.
fla...@verizon.net
On 21-Sep-2007, Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote:
> > I went to a funeral like that. S____ was a member of our Orthodox
> > synagogue,
> > most of his family was Reform. The others arranged the funeral of their
> > father.
> > A bunch of us, including the rabbi, came from the Orthodox synagogue.
> > The
> > Reform rabbi did his service, left the grave open, and went off with the
> > rest
> > of the family for lunch. The Orthodox group moved in, did a second
> > service,
> > including filling-in the grave.
> >
> > I've been to both Orthodox and Conservative funerals. They're pretty
> > much identical, including partially filling in the grave (at least
> > covering
> > the box in dirt) as part of the service. This Reform service was pretty
> > different.
> >
> While I can't necessarily speak for the content of the service, not
> having been to many Orthodox funerals, I've not yet been to a Reform
> funeral where the grave was left open as you say. Sometimes everyone
> does one shovelful, sometimes the entire grace is filled in, but I've
> never seen it left completely open. I'm sorry that there are those
> out there who do it like that.
Could be the Reform were being gracious & allowing the O to fill it in.
Susan
Joel Shurkin
> "Abe Kohen" <ako...@xenon.stanford.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:fcslea$up9$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...> "Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@gmail.com> wrote
> >> >From Haaretz.
>
> >>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>
> > as
> > far back as I can remember. What makes it news?
>
> --------
> It was nothing more than an attempt to incite the readers of Ha'aretz (by
> the editor/publisher) and the non-O participants of SCJM (by the one who
> initiated the thread and provided the weblink).
> Gmar Chatimah Tovah to all my fellow-Jews.
> ---Cindy S.
Might I humbly suggest you now go and read the article?
j
Herman Rubin
>Herman Rubin wrote:
>> In article <fct81j$bk4$1...@news2.netvision.net.il>,
>> yzk <yaa...@netvision.net.il> wrote:
>>> Eliyahu wrote:
....................
>> The Orthodox do not have a monopoly on Judaism. Moreover,
>> they seem to refuse to let secular knowledge interfere
>> with their tenets;
>Torah U'Madda isn't a constructive engagement, in your opinion?
>chsw
It may be more constructive, but it does not really
recognize that the knowledge of how the world operates,
and as accurate knowledge of ancient times as we can
get, is needed to understand Torah. At best, Torah
can have a small effect on understanding the structure
of the universe and of life.
jamesh...@yahoo.co.uk
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
>
>
> > "Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> >> >From Haaretz.
>
> >>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
>
> > -------
> > So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
> > concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
> > anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before
> > Yom Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
> > ---Cindy S.
>
> From more than one source, including a documentary TV programme, I have read
> or hear that O prefer a secular and not a reform, because the latter "are
> not Jews".
>
> Usually I ignore the stupidity that from time to time emerges from O
> circles, but
> these remarks I remember well and I wonder if believes and intelligence are
> somewhat connected, inverselly.
> --
> Giora Drachsler
> Jerusalem, Israel
Your thinking is limited to very few different words, and in this way
you mix everything and change statements.
You probably heard that "the latter(reform) is not judaism" not "the
latter(reform) are not jews".
You shouldn't rely on yourself for interpreting what people say.
cindys
Since I did read the article on 09/20/2007, might I humbly suggest that in
the future you read all the follow-ups before making a comment such as this?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> However, it seems clear that at least many of the
> Orthodox do hate Reform (and Conservative) Jews.
> It is partly that they are torn between denying
> that those they call Jews, who are practicing the
> Reform or Conservative version of Judaism, are
> not observing what they consider to be the Jewish
> way, but they insist that they are Jews and cannot
> be thrown out.
Did you see my post about the Shema?
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> On 2007-09-20, Giora Drachsler <gi...@huji.ac.il> wrote:
>>
>> From more than one source, including a documentary TV programme,
>> I have read or hear that O prefer a secular and not a reform,
>> because the latter "are not Jews".
>
> that Jews control the world's economy and media, but that doesn't
> make it true.
Very astute question.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> Eliyahu wrote:
>>
>> The error is in confusing the movement with the members. We've all
>> known Reform Jews who are much better Jews than some O Jews, and vice
>> versa. e.g., Who is the "better" Jew? -- a Reform Jew who is fasting
>> on Yom Kippur and spending the day at his synagogue, or an "ostensibly-
>> Orthodox" Jew who is non-observant and spends the day at the beach
>> Reform is about, but I hesitate to impute what I see as the failings
>> of the movement to the motivation or goals of the members.
>
Umm Lee, do _you_ know that for a fact? Or are you just guessing?
Or repeating what some _other non-O perdon told you?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
>> <sarcasm on> You mean it was all about the service and not because your
>> group didn't consider the Reform group to be Jewish? <sarcasm off>
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>>
> Cindy, for what it's worth I've been told that "well you lot aren't
> really Jews anyway" on more than one occasion by self-identified
> Orthodox Jews. While I don't really consider that representative
> of all Orthodox, the attitude really IS out there.
Don, for your observation to be meaningful, even as just an anecdote,
you would have to add the qualifier "knowlegable" to "self-identified".
Is that the case?
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate Reform
>>Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
>>subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
>
> Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
>
> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
> Judaism is offensive.
I'm sure it's offensive. But it is _NOT_, repeat _NOT_, the same
as saying "Reform Jews are not Jewish". _That_ is the canard that
Cindy is complaining about.
Dan Kimmel
<fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:fd3q7v$mgg$1...@falcon.steinthal.us...
I've been to one Reform funeral where I went out to the cemetary. I'll
spare you the tragic circumstances. The grave was filled in, by the
participants. There were, to the best of my knowledge, no Orthodox
involved.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> , "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> in wrote:
>>-------
>>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before Yom
>>Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>
> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> people Jews.
That's your "best" explanation??? How about they were saying prayers
and didn't want to do it in a mixed company? How about they were the
_mourners_ and didn't want to get involved in conversation at that
time of the funeral. The halacha is that _before_ the interment is
not the proper time to offer condolences.
Matt, if you "best" effort is so divisive, I'd hate to see what you
do if you set your mind to it.
<Disappointed>
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
>> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPref...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>>> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
>>> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
>>> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
>>> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
>>> people Jews.
>> I'm assuming the deceased (and by extension the funeral) was R or C based
>> on what you wrote above. In all likelihood, her Orthodox sons wanted to
>> recite the traditional/additional prayers for their mother that were not
>> included in the service, and they probably also did wish to do so while
>> seated amongst a group of mixed men and women. You clearly did not know
>> the reason for their actions, so you decided to say the ugliest thing you
>> could think of. My "best explanation" for your "best explanation" is pure
>> hatefulness.
>
> I have attended O funerals (most recently for my father in Israel)
> as well as R funerals here. The grave site ceremonies are virtually
> identical and very simple.
>
> Maybe you are correct. Maybe the O sons wanted to say their prayers while
> not seated among a group of mixed men and women. But why assume the worst
> about Matt? Why accuse him of "pure hatefulness"? What if he is right and
> there was a large bunch of non-Jews there and the sons did not wish to pray
> in their midst? What if the sons simply wanted to commune by themselves in
> remembering their mother? Why do you always assume the worst about people?
Umm Jay, that last question (What if the sons simply wanted to commune
by themselves in remembering their mother?) should be directed at
_Matt_, not at Cindy. Matt was the one who couldn't come up with that
possibility and instead said his "best explanation" is that they did
not consider the other people Jews. Why do _you_ think Matt said that?
cindys
"Herman Rubin" <hru...@stat.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:fd15ol$2l...@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
> In article <46f2d6e6$0$28808$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
>>It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate
>>Reform
>>Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
>>subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
>>Best regards,
>>---Cindy S.
>
> We have seen many postings here which have stated that
> Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
And how many postings have we seen here where Orthodox Jews have stated that
Reform Jews [across the board] are *not Jewish* because of their beliefs and
practices? The answer is: Zero.
I find it interesting to note that when SCJM was created, one of the
unwritten rules (I don't think this is spelled out in the charter but I
remember seeing discussions about this), was that all expressions of Judaism
needed to be respected. The reason Bin Dissen remained with SCJ unmoderated
and did not move over to SCJM was because the SCJM moderators rejected his
posts where he referred to Reform Jews as "Reformed Jews" and referred to
Reform Judaism as "the Reformed religion." Yet, it seems to me that the
majority of Bin's anti-Reform postings would pale in comparison to some of
the stuff I've seen repeatedly on SCJM where Reform and secular are bashing
the Orthodox.
>
> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
> Judaism is offensive.
And thank you for admitting (again) that the Orthodox have not stated that
Reform Jews are "not Jewish."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
snip
>> >
>> While I can't necessarily speak for the content of the service, not
>> having been to many Orthodox funerals, I've not yet been to a Reform
>> funeral where the grave was left open as you say. Sometimes everyone
>> does one shovelful, sometimes the entire grace is filled in, but I've
>> never seen it left completely open. I'm sorry that there are those
>> out there who do it like that.
>
> Could be the Reform were being gracious & allowing the O to fill it in.
---------
That was my thought as well.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
BlackMonk
<mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
news:2007Sep2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>> <sarcasm on> You mean it was all about the service and not because your
>>> group didn't consider the Reform group to be Jewish? <sarcasm off>
>>> Best regards,
>>> ---Cindy S.
>>>
>> Cindy, for what it's worth I've been told that "well you lot aren't
>> really Jews anyway" on more than one occasion by self-identified
>> Orthodox Jews. While I don't really consider that representative
>> of all Orthodox, the attitude really IS out there.
>
> Don, for your observation to be meaningful, even as just an anecdote,
> you would have to add the qualifier "knowlegable" to "self-identified".
> Is that the case?
>
Actually, it isn't necessarily, since (unless I missed something), the claim
isn't "according to the mianstream Orthodox interpretation of halacha, O
don't consider R to be Jews," but just "O don't consider R to be Jews." To
be accurate, it should be "some O don't consider R to be Jews." That was
refuted by the claim that no O in the experience of, I think it was Cindy,
believe that. To counter that claim, all you need is one O who does believe
that, not that the belief be well-founded.
After all, people believe lots of stupid things. That doesn't mean they're
any less passionate about those beliefs. Frequently, just the opposite.
I don't know how prevalent that belief is among the Orthodox or how
prevalent an equivalent attitude is among the Reform, but I have no trouble
believing such attitudes exist. Unfortunately, a lot of people tend to view
the world in terms of "us" and "them," and therefore make as many of those
distinctions as they can. (My personal suspicion is that any religious
orthodoxy encourages such distinctions in a certain type of person, because
that person has the luxury of saying "I didn't make the distinction, God
did." On the other hand, that type of person, let's call them "control
freaks," probably wouldn't be much different, no matter what their religous
beliefs were,)
Personally, I try not to think of other Jews as Reform, Conservative, or
Orthodox, rather as "Jews who have their own way of practicing Judaism,
aspects of which I may or may not agree with, but it's up to God to decide
what they've got wrong, not me."
In fact, one of the reasons I stopped going to the Reform synagogue around
here as frequently was because the rabbi put too much emphasis on the
congregation being Reform Jews, rather than just Jews.
maxine in ri
> Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > , "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> in wrote:
> >>-------
> >>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
> >>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
> >>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before Yom
> >>Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>
> > My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
> > friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> > by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> > else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> > people Jews.
>
> That's your "best" explanation??? How about they were saying prayers
> and didn't want to do it in a mixed company? How about they were the
> _mourners_ and didn't want to get involved in conversation at that
> time of the funeral. The halacha is that _before_ the interment is
> not the proper time to offer condolences.
>
> Matt, if you "best" effort is so divisive, I'd hate to see what you
> do if you set your mind to it.
>
> <Disappointed>
>
> Moshe Schorr
Considering _some_ of the things that have been said here and in the
news, I can see where his comment came from. Other posters prior to
you have also suggested that they didn't want to pray in mixed
company. I didn't know that one doesn't offer condolances prior to
interment, but the mourners are usually kept away from everyone else
prior to the end of the funeral, so it's not usually possible to offer
condolances, which now makes sense, since it would keep the
unknowledgeable from erring.
maixne in ri
D.M. Procida
> Considering _some_ of the things that have been said here and in the
> news, I can see where his comment came from. Other posters prior to
> you have also suggested that they didn't want to pray in mixed
> company. I didn't know that one doesn't offer condolances prior to
> interment, but the mourners are usually kept away from everyone else
> prior to the end of the funeral
Surely everyone who goes to a funeral is a mourner.
Daniele
cindys
"maxine in ri" <wee...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190561218....@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
And there's nothing wrong with that. That was Moshe's comment. He (and
several others of us) said that not wanting to pray in mixed company is one
of several perfectly legitimate reasons for why the woman's sons set
themselves apart from the other mourners. But that is NOT what Matt said.
Matt wrote that the "best explanation" he could think of for why the sons
set themselves apart was that they (the sons) didn't consider the other
people (Reform Jews) to be Jewish.
> I didn't know that one doesn't offer condolances prior to
> interment, but the mourners are usually kept away from everyone else
> prior to the end of the funeral, so it's not usually possible to offer
> condolances, which now makes sense, since it would keep the
> unknowledgeable from erring.
Yes, this would have been another plausible explanation. As well as the
explanation that the sons wanted to offer private prayers or additional
prayers that were not included in the Reform service.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> <sarcasm on> You mean it was all about the service and not because your
>>>> group didn't consider the Reform group to be Jewish? <sarcasm off>
>>>>
>>> really Jews anyway" on more than one occasion by self-identified
>>> Orthodox Jews. While I don't really consider that representative
>>> of all Orthodox, the attitude really IS out there.
>>
>> Don, for your observation to be meaningful, even as just an anecdote,
>> you would have to add the qualifier "knowlegable" to "self-identified".
>> Is that the case?
>
> Actually, it isn't necessarily, since (unless I missed something), the claim
> isn't "according to the mianstream Orthodox interpretation of halacha, O
> don't consider R to be Jews," but just "O don't consider R to be Jews." To
> be accurate, it should be "some O don't consider R to be Jews." That was
> refuted by the claim that no O in the experience of, I think it was Cindy,
> believe that. To counter that claim, all you need is one O who does believe
> that, not that the belief be well-founded.
OK as a pendactic point. But the thrust of these threads is that the
non-O are complaining that "the orthodox" (whatever that's supposed
to mean), don't consider us _Jewish_". I think it's safe to call that
a canard, the beliefs of a few marginal, unlearned, O Jews,
notwithstanding.
> After all, people believe lots of stupid things. That doesn't mean they're
> any less passionate about those beliefs. Frequently, just the opposite.
>
> I don't know how prevalent that belief is among the Orthodox or how
> prevalent an equivalent attitude is among the Reform, but I have no trouble
> believing such attitudes exist. Unfortunately, a lot of people tend to view
> the world in terms of "us" and "them," and therefore make as many of those
> distinctions as they can. (My personal suspicion is that any religious
> orthodoxy encourages such distinctions in a certain type of person, because
> that person has the luxury of saying "I didn't make the distinction, God
> did." On the other hand, that type of person, let's call them "control
> freaks," probably wouldn't be much different, no matter what their religous
> beliefs were,)
Good point. Painful but good. I just finished learnig something about
Purim. Mordechai and Esther had the ability to relate to _every_ Jew,
so much so that the the Megilah ends with the words "...peace to all
his descendents". He was even able to influence the non-Jews!
> Personally, I try not to think of other Jews as Reform, Conservative, or
> Orthodox, rather as "Jews who have their own way of practicing Judaism,
> aspects of which I may or may not agree with, but it's up to God to decide
> what they've got wrong, not me."
Nice formulation.
> In fact, one of the reasons I stopped going to the Reform synagogue
> around here as frequently was because the rabbi put too much
> emphasis on the congregation being Reform Jews, rather than just
> Jews.
That's a shame.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > , "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> in wrote:
>> >>-------
>> >>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
>> >>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
>> >>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right
>> >>before Yom Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
>>
>> > My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
>> > friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
>> > by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
>> > else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
>> > people Jews.
>>
>> That's your "best" explanation??? How about they were saying prayers
>> and didn't want to do it in a mixed company? How about they were the
>> _mourners_ and didn't want to get involved in conversation at that
>> time of the funeral. The halacha is that _before_ the interment is
>> not the proper time to offer condolences.
>>
>> Matt, if you "best" effort is so divisive, I'd hate to see what you
>> do if you set your mind to it.
>>
>> <Disappointed>
>
> the news, I can see where his comment came from.
But as the _BEST_ explanation??!!
> Other posters prior to > you have also suggested that they didn't
> want to pray in mixed company. I didn't know that one doesn't offer
> condolances prior to interment,
It's based on a Mishna in Pirkei Avot "Do not console when the
deceased is in front of him".
> but the mourners are usually kept away from everyone else prior to
> the end of the funeral, so it's not usually possible to offer
> condolances, which now makes sense, since it would keep the
> unknowledgeable from erring.
And also gives the mourners some privacy to give vent to their
emotions.
Micha Berger
> Could be the Reform were being gracious & allowing the O to fill it in.
If I may combine this with an earlier idea. chsw <ch...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if the two rabbis discussed this
> 1-2 maneuver beforehand. However, it does show something about
> the family that they could not agree on how to bury this man.
Or, they did -- they agreed on a joint funeral as a way to avoid excluding
anyone, including leaving the burial to the O side.
> Unusual. Funeral services across O, C and R which I have seen
> have been very similar...
I would have thought so. By its very nature, burial is something people
want done as per tradition. When someone loses a link to their past,
preserving that past becomes important.
(And may G-d save us all from ever again attending funerals where they
bury a piece of the future. Kayli was born the first day of chol hamo'ed
Sukkos, which was Sep 25th. She lived until shortly after Chanukah of
that year, the 4th of Tevet. In a different universe, tomorrow we would
be celebrating her turning 16, and the nagging for a driver's license
and a car would begin.)
Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l
cindys
"D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:1i4x2pl.chm98zo3yu0mN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...
Only the children/spouse/siblings/parents of the deceased are bonafide
"mourners." The extended family members and friends who come to express
their condolences may feel sad but they are not "mourners." One offers
condolences to the children of a deceased parent, not to the
next-door-neighbor. This is not any different from the non-Jewish world.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Sep-2007, "Dan Kimmel" <daniel...@rcn.com> wrote:
> > > While I can't necessarily speak for the content of the service, not
> > > having been to many Orthodox funerals, I've not yet been to a Reform
> > > funeral where the grave was left open as you say. Sometimes everyone
> > > does one shovelful, sometimes the entire grace is filled in, but I've
> > > never seen it left completely open. I'm sorry that there are those
> > > out there who do it like that.
> >
> > Could be the Reform were being gracious & allowing the O to fill it in.
>
> I've been to one Reform funeral where I went out to the cemetary. I'll
> spare you the tragic circumstances. The grave was filled in, by the
> participants. There were, to the best of my knowledge, no Orthodox
> involved.
Sorry to hear that, but it didn't really answer my question/supposition.
Susan
Micha Berger
> I've been to both Orthodox and Conservative funerals. They're pretty
> much identical, including partially filling in the grave (at least covering
> the box in dirt) as part of the service. This Reform service was pretty
> different.
Interesting. About your "partially": I have never been to the gravesite
part of an Orthodox funeral where the attendees stopped burying before
the ground was level with the rest.
And one time the ground was frozen, and the process of breaking the pile
of dirt in order to shovel it made the ceremony take a very long time.
And yet, they kept at it until done.
Don Levey
I think that the main thrust of the thread was not that Orthodoxy does
not consider Reform Jews to be Jews, but that *some* Jews who identify
with Orthodoxy think that way. In my own case, whether or not they are
knowledgeable is not really relevant. I do not believe that they speak
for Orthodoxy but for themselves and some group of others who think like
them.
Cindy is more than happy to tell us of the Reform Jews and their hatred
toward the Orthodox, but minimises the opposite as non-existent or from
a very few marginalised non-Orthodox. As I mentioned myself, they self-
identified; regardless of the black hats and the sheitles I do not know
of their practices or personal knowledge. What I CAN tell you is that
the attitude is out there, and while probably not a majoriy it comes from
more than just one or two. I and my family have been rather poorly treated
in the past. Do I hold a grudge? I don't think so - but I also don't
forget it.
>
> > In fact, one of the reasons I stopped going to the Reform synagogue
> > around here as frequently was because the rabbi put too much
> > emphasis on the congregation being Reform Jews, rather than just
> > Jews.
>
> That's a shame.
>
Indeed it is. It's one of the things I actively dislike about (some)
Jews from across the spectrum. As I attend Reform congregations, I
see it most "at home". I wish that my rabbi (as well as others, across
the board) would stop discussing their practice as if they speak for
all Judaism.
--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: email server uses spam filters; mail sent to sal...@the-leveys.us
will be used to tune the blocking lists.
Don Levey
To clarify/amplify: In Judaism, the term "mourner" has a precise
definition. It is not used in the same way it might be used in the
broader context.
fla...@verizon.net
On 24-Sep-2007, mi...@aishdas.org (Micha Berger) wrote:
> (And may G-d save us all from ever again attending funerals where they
> bury a piece of the future. Kayli was born the first day of chol hamo'ed
> Sukkos, which was Sep 25th. She lived until shortly after Chanukah of
> that year, the 4th of Tevet. In a different universe, tomorrow we would
> be celebrating her turning 16, and the nagging for a driver's license
> and a car would begin.)
I wish there was something I could say that could make this right.
May you be comforted with the mourners of Zion & Jerusalem.
Susan
cindys
"Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
news:m38x6w6...@dauphin.the-leveys.us...
>
> Cindy is more than happy to tell us of the Reform Jews and their hatred
> toward the Orthodox, but minimises the opposite as non-existent or from
> a very few marginalised non-Orthodox.
Because I genuinely don't see it. Overall, in my community, there is little
to no interaction at all between O and C/R, and the Rs and Cs are rarely a
topic for conversation amongst the O. It's like a separate world.
Occasionally, I have heard Orthodox express disdain for the "pick and
choose" mentality, but I have never seen what I would classify as outright
hatred, and I have never, ever heard any Orthodox Jew in my community say
"Reform Jews are not really Jewish." What I have seen is a tremendous amount
of what I would classify as outright hatred being directed at the Orthodox
community by the rabbi of one of the local Reform congregations. The reason
for his animosity (according to him) is that the black hat rabbis will not
attend Board of Rabbis meetings (which would validate pluralism). The MO
rabbis do attend. The other outright hatred (again directed at the black hat
community not the MO community) is generated from our local Jewish
Federation, the origin of which, again, is the black hat refusal to
acknowledge the validity of pluralism. The animosity I have seen in my town
is so intense (and expressed in action not just in words) that the
Federation allowed the community day school to be decimated just to make a
point. SCJM is not the time or the place to be discussing the details of the
politics in my town, but suffice it to say, the level of animosity does not
work equally in both directions (that I have personally experienced).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Eliyahu
> Jonathan J. Baker <jjba...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > I've been to both Orthodox and Conservative funerals. They're pretty
> > much identical, including partially filling in the grave (at least covering
> > the box in dirt) as part of the service. This Reform service was pretty
> > different.
>
> Interesting. About your "partially": I have never been to the gravesite
> part of an Orthodox funeral where the attendees stopped burying before
> the ground was level with the rest.
>
> And one time the ground was frozen, and the process of breaking the pile
> of dirt in order to shovel it made the ceremony take a very long time.
> And yet, they kept at it until done.
>
supervision of a visiting O rabbi from the coast. We all added a few
shovels of dirt, but didn't fill the grave. He and the family were
all Sephardi rather than Ashkenazi, so perhaps it's a "S" vs "A"
thing?
Eliyahu
Don Levey
> "Don Levey" <Don_...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
> news:m38x6w6...@dauphin.the-leveys.us...
> >
> > Cindy is more than happy to tell us of the Reform Jews and their hatred
> > toward the Orthodox, but minimises the opposite as non-existent or from
> > a very few marginalised non-Orthodox.
> ------
> Because I genuinely don't see it. Overall, in my community, there is little
> to no interaction at all between O and C/R, and the Rs and Cs are rarely a
> topic for conversation amongst the O. It's like a separate world.
> ... SCJM is not the time or the place to be discussing the details of the
> politics in my town, but suffice it to say, the level of animosity does not
> work equally in both directions (that I have personally experienced).
>
Cindy, that I understand. Please understand: just as I try not to
generalise from my own experiences to O communities everywhere, please
don't take your local experiences and then say that because you don't
see it, it doesn't happen anywhere.
I was never *taught* these things. I learned them because they
happened to me.
Herman Rubin
cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
If all expressions of Judaism are to be respected, how can
one claim the Reform Judaism is not Judaism, unless one
declares in not an expression of Judaism. If this is
sustained by the moderators, this means that they maintain
that the Charter only considers Orthodox Judaism to be
an expression of Judaism.
>> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
>> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
>> Judaism is offensive.
>And thank you for admitting (again) that the Orthodox have not stated that
>Reform Jews are "not Jewish."
>Best regards,
They have stated that many Reform Jews, those converted by
Reform conversions, are not Jewish.
Also, it is an insult to say that serious Jews, who accept
the idea that the Torah is a holy work, even if not the
precise word of God, are not practicing Judaism. It is
equivalent to the Catholics saying that Protestants are
not practicing Christianity, to give a non-Jewish example.
[To the moderators: I know we are not to discuss other
religions, but a fairly easily understood example was needed.]
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Harry Weiss
> >> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC), in
> >> soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> in
> >> <46f1be10$0$26379$4c36...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>"Joel Shurkin" <jshu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:1190228255.1...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905215.html
> >>>>
> >>>-------
> >>>So Ha'aretz raises the old canard that as far as Orthodox Jews are
> >>>concerned, Reform Jews are "not really Jewish." How typical of this
> >>>anti-Orthodox rag to stoke the flames of Jew-on-Jew hatred right before
> >>>Yom
> >>>Kippur. This is why the temple was destroyed.
> >>
> >> My mother was at the funeral of an old friend the other day. This
> >> friend had two sons who had become orthodox. At the funeral they went
> >> by themselves to the side and did some prayers, ignoring everyone
> >> else. My best explanation is that they did not consider the other
> >> people Jews.
> > I'm assuming the deceased (and by extension the funeral) was R or C based
> > on what you wrote above. In all likelihood, her Orthodox sons wanted to
> > recite the traditional/additional prayers for their mother that were not
> > included in the service, and they probably also did wish to do so while
> > seated amongst a group of mixed men and women. You clearly did not know
> > the reason for their actions, so you decided to say the ugliest thing you
> > could think of. My "best explanation" for your "best explanation" is pure
> > hatefulness.
> > ---Cindy S.
> I have attended O funerals (most recently for my father in Israel) as well
> as R funerals here. The grave site ceremonies are virtually identical and
> very simple.
> Maybe you are correct. Maybe the O sons wanted to say their prayers while
> not seated among a group of mixed men and women. But why assume the worst
> about Matt? Why accuse him of "pure hatefulness"? What if he is right and
> there was a large bunch of non-Jews there and the sons did not wish to pray
> in their midst? What if the sons simply wanted to commune by themselves in
> remembering their mother? Why do you always assume the worst about people?
> Jay
But it was Matt who started by saying his reason which was anti O,
You continue the anti O libel. Shame on you.
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@panix.com
Herman Rubin
><mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote in message
>news:2007Sep2...@mm.huji.ac.il...
>> Don Levey <Don_...@the-leveys.us> writes:
>>> "cindys" <cst...@rochester.rr.com> writes:
.................
>Personally, I try not to think of other Jews as Reform, Conservative, or
>Orthodox, rather as "Jews who have their own way of practicing Judaism,
>aspects of which I may or may not agree with, but it's up to God to decide
>what they've got wrong, not me."
>In fact, one of the reasons I stopped going to the Reform synagogue around
>here as frequently was because the rabbi put too much emphasis on the
>congregation being Reform Jews, rather than just Jews.
I have never seen this in my congregation. In fact, the
members of this congregation join with the members of the
other congregation (Conservative) and I believe with some
unaffiliated in joint activities, such as the religious
school and community fundraising.
J J Levin
news:fd9781$db1$1...@reader1.panix.com...
I'm continuing the anti-O libel by suggesting that Cindy should give someone
the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst about people?
Perhaps you should read more carefully, Harry?
Jay
cindys
"Eliyahu" <lro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190658212.1...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I have (unfortunately) gone to a number of Jewish funerals in my city. There
was up until recently only one Jewish mortician/funeral parlor. So, he did
all the Jewish funerals, whether the person was O, C, or R. I don't think I
have ever attended an R funeral, so I can't speak for that, but at all the C
and O funerals I have attended, what I have seen (including at my father's
a"h funeral) was that the family and friends would each put a couple of
shovelfuls of dirt in the grave. When everyone who wanted to do this had
done so, the mourners et al would leave, and someone else would finish
filling in the grave. I'm not sure if the "someone else" was someone who
worked for the funeral parlor or an employee of the cemetary itself. It's
almost as if that's "just how it's done" (where I live), and I've never seen
anybody question this or do otherwise. Unless, I've just been going to "the
wrong funerals," or I never paid attention as the deceased's son dutifully
finished filling in the grave and I just assumed it was an employee of the
cemetary. If David Esan is reading this, perhaps he could comment? It's
funny how different customs evolve in different places, and nobody thinks
anything about it until an "outsider" starts questioning it. Hmmm...
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
>
>>> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
>>> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
>>> Judaism is offensive.
>
>>And thank you for admitting (again) that the Orthodox have not stated that
>>Reform Jews are "not Jewish."
>>Best regards,
>
> They have stated that many Reform Jews, those converted by
> Reform conversions, are not Jewish.
Which of course is not what we've been discussing. You are (again) changing
the subject (which is your common habit when you've been refuted and have no
comeback). We are not talking about conversions or someone who has been
converted by a Reform conversion. We are talking about whether Orthodox have
stated that halachically Jewish Reform Jews are "not Jewish." And the answer
(at least on this forum) is no.
>
> Also, it is an insult to say that serious Jews, who accept
> the idea that the Torah is a holy work, even if not the
> precise word of God, are not practicing Judaism...
[again, irrelevant to the topic of this thread - snip].
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
"J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pnVJi.1142$GW....@newsfe12.lga...
>
> I'm continuing the anti-O libel by suggesting that Cindy should give
> someone the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst about people?
> Perhaps you should read more carefully, Harry?
What exactly was my "assumption?" As I stated, Matt's words were
unequivocal.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Joel Shurkin
> "Don Levey" <Don_S...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
In Baltimore, an MO rabbi headed up the Board of Rabbis last year and
took waves of grief from the black hat community for it. He was very
popular with the rest of the Jews of they city but he was really upset
at the level of animosity aimed at him from the right.
j
Herman Rubin
>hru...@stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>>It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate Reform
>>>Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
>>>subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
>> We have seen many postings here which have stated that
>> Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
>> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
>> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
>> Judaism is offensive.
>I'm sure it's offensive. But it is _NOT_, repeat _NOT_, the same
>as saying "Reform Jews are not Jewish". _That_ is the canard that
>Cindy is complaining about.
I repeat my statement. There have been many postings on
this newsgroup which insist that Reform and Conservative
Jews are not practicing Judaism.
This is akin to the statements by sects of well-known
religions which I need not name that those of other
sects are not practicing that religion, and which has,
in fact, led to bloodshed in the past and even now.
Harry Weiss
> j
A lot depends on what is done in the Board of Rabbis. This goes back to a major
disagreement from many years ago between Rabbi JB Soleveitchik (RJBS)zt"l and the
more right wing Rabbis led by his cousin Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt"l regarding the
synagogue council of America.
Rabbi Soleveitchik allowed one to join the SCA if only communal affairs/not religious
affairs were discussed. If religious affairs were discussed he said that one could
not join that organizaiton.
The other Rabbis felt it was probhibited in all cases.
The other question among those who follow RJBS is whether that permission included
boards of Rabbis.
Tim Meushaw
> In article <2007Sep2...@mm.huji.ac.il>, <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>>hru...@stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>>It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate Reform
>>>>Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
>>>>subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
>
>>> We have seen many postings here which have stated that
>>> Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
>
>>> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
>>> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
>>> Judaism is offensive.
>
>>I'm sure it's offensive. But it is _NOT_, repeat _NOT_, the same
>>as saying "Reform Jews are not Jewish". _That_ is the canard that
>>Cindy is complaining about.
>
> I repeat my statement. There have been many postings on
> this newsgroup which insist that Reform and Conservative
> Jews are not practicing Judaism.
So start your own thread about it instead of repeatedly trying to hijack
this one on an unrelated tangent.
Tim
--
Timothy A. Meushaw
meu...@pobox.com
fla...@verizon.net
On 24-Sep-2007, Harry Weiss <hjw...@panix.com> wrote:
Now, imagine if we didn't read this....
> A lot depends on what is done in the Board of Rabbis. This goes back to a
> major
> disagreement from many years ago between Rabbi JB Soleveitchik (RJBS)zt"l
> and the
> more right wing Rabbis led by his cousin Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt"l
> regarding the
> synagogue council of America.
.. but started reading here...
> Rabbi Soleveitchik allowed one to join the SCA if only communal
> affairs/not religious
> affairs were discussed. If religious affairs were discussed he said that
> one could
> not join that organizaiton.
Gee, whodathunkit that dressing up in fancy clothes & pretending to
beat each other with sticks (or women watching guys do it) was
somehow against Jewish Law....
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 24-Sep-2007, "J J Levin" <jjl...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Why do you always assume the worst about
> >> people?
> >
> >> Jay
> >
> >
> >
> > But it was Matt who started by saying his reason which was anti O,
> > You continue the anti O libel. Shame on you.
> >
>
>
> I'm continuing the anti-O libel by suggesting that Cindy should give
> someone
> the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst about people?
> Perhaps you should read more carefully, Harry?
It is you who need to read more carefully.
Matt said something that was openly & unmistakably negative;
there was no way for anyone to take it but negatively. For you
to then say that Cindy is at fault for not giving him the benefit
of the doubt is at best sloppy reading.
Susan
Joel Shurkin
> In article <46f65ec8$0$17151$4c368...@roadrunner.com>,
>
>
>
> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >"Herman Rubin" <hru...@stat.purdue.edu> wrote in message
> >news:fd15ol$2l...@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
> >> cindys <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>"Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
The example is actually perfect. What is happening in Judaism now is
what happened to Christianity in the 16th and 17th centuries.
j
Tim Meushaw
It'd make more of us feel better if you'd respond to the post that
prompted Cindy to not give someone the benefit of the doubt.
Harry Weiss
I have never been to an R funeral, but in the all of the O and most of the C ones the
grave is filled up almost to the top by the people present. The cemetary crew will
just put in the layer of sod on the top. (Also, after the casket is totally covered
with soil, they will put the liner on. In the predominantly O section only concrete
liners are used. In the other section they use a plastic liner.)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> "Don Levey" <Don_S...@the-leveys.us> wrote in message
>
>> > toward the Orthodox, but minimises the opposite as non-existent or from
>> > a very few marginalised non-Orthodox.
>>
>> ------
>> Because I genuinely don't see it. Overall, in my community, there is little
>> to no interaction at all between O and C/R, and the Rs and Cs are rarely a
>> topic for conversation amongst the O. It's like a separate world.
>> Occasionally, I have heard Orthodox express disdain for the "pick and
>> choose" mentality, but I have never seen what I would classify as outright
>> hatred, and I have never, ever heard any Orthodox Jew in my community say
>> "Reform Jews are not really Jewish." What I have seen is a tremendous amount
>> of what I would classify as outright hatred being directed at the Orthodox
>> community by the rabbi of one of the local Reform congregations. The reason
>> for his animosity (according to him) is that the black hat rabbis will not
>> attend Board of Rabbis meetings (which would validate pluralism). The MO
>> rabbis do attend. The other outright hatred (again directed at the black hat
>> community not the MO community) is generated from our local Jewish
>> Federation, the origin of which, again, is the black hat refusal to
>> acknowledge the validity of pluralism. The animosity I have seen in my town
>> is so intense (and expressed in action not just in words) that the
>> Federation allowed the community day school to be decimated just to make a
>> point. SCJM is not the time or the place to be discussing the details of the
>> politics in my town, but suffice it to say, the level of animosity does not
>> work equally in both directions (that I have personally experienced).
>
> took waves of grief from the black hat community for it. He was very
> popular with the rest of the Jews of they city but he was really upset
> at the level of animosity aimed at him from the right.
But the animosity was not dorected at the non-O Jews! It was directed
at an Orthodox rabbi, for breaking ranks.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
KarenElizabeth
> On 2007-09-24, J J Levin <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Harry Weiss" <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >news:fd9781$db1$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> >>J J Levin <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:46f2d3ff$0$7441$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
> >>> > "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> >>> > in
> >>> > messagenews:hli5f3t1tmcvjgodp...@4ax.com...
> >>> >> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC), in
> >>> >> <46f1be10$0$26379$4c368...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
> >>> >>>"Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
trying to incite people against O Jews prior to Yom Kippur by printing
an article that had nothing to do with Yom Kippur? Or are you
referring to the one in which she accused Joel of the same? Or are we
forgetting that what began this thread was her raising the *old
canard* (to use the phrase so beloved by some here) that virtually any
posts or discussions by non-O posters here is really intended as an
attack on O Jews?
Karen Elizabeth
KarenElizabeth
> "Harry Weiss" <hjwe...@panix.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fd9781$db1$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >J J Levin <jjle...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> >>news:46f2d3ff$0$7441$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
> >> > "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> >> > in
> >> > messagenews:hli5f3t1tmcvjgodp...@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC), in
> >> >> <46f1be10$0$26379$4c368...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
secular Israeli's perception of R and C Jews. I found it
interesting. But, as inevitably happens here, an O poster started
jumping up and down, accusing people of anti-O animus --
notwithstanding the fact that the article had absolutely nothing to do
with O Jews -- and accusing non-O Jews of spreading falsehoods as well
as *canards* The poor, poor persecuted O Jews of this group.
Puuuuuhhh - leeeeeez. If you want to talk about canards, let's start
with that one.
Now, let me tell you how *I* read Matt's words. At the time, we had a
poster claiming that the true, clear, and only reason that Joel posted
an article that had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ORTHODOX JEWS is
because he wanted to attack O Jews. And why? Because Joel committed
the unpardonable sin of not being O? And so, when I read Matt's
comments, I saw them as a commentary on that. We can view thing with
an open mind and discuss them intelligently. Or we can assume the
worst without any supporting information. Because if the O posters
get to assume that every time a non-O poster links to an article --
even one having nothing to do with O Judaism -- its an attack on O
Judaism, then why shouldn't non-O posters assume that when the O
deliberately segregate themselves, its out of an anti-C/R animus?
So, let's start asking some questions. Can you cite me, quote me, the
basis that you had for claiming that the article was anti-O? Or is
this yet another example of that old canard that C and R Jews hate the
O?
Karen Elizabeth
Karen Elizabeth
cindys
> In article <2007Sep2...@mm.huji.ac.il>, <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il>
> wrote:
>>hru...@stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>>It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate
>>>>Reform
>>>>Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
>>>>subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
>
>>> We have seen many postings here which have stated that
>>> Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
>
>>> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
>>> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
>>> Judaism is offensive.
>
>>I'm sure it's offensive. But it is _NOT_, repeat _NOT_, the same
>>as saying "Reform Jews are not Jewish". _That_ is the canard that
>>Cindy is complaining about.
>
> I repeat my statement. There have been many postings on
> this newsgroup which insist that Reform and Conservative
> Jews are not practicing Judaism.
And _I_ repeat, there are NO postings on this newsgroup which insist (or
even suggest) that Reform and Conservative Jews are *not Jewish* (which is
the subject of this thread).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> <mos...@mm.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>>hru...@stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>> cindys <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>>It's amazing to me that the subject of this thread is "Jews who hate Reform
>>>>Jews." Based on what I've read so far on this thread, a more accurate
>>>>subject line would have been "Jews who hate Orthodox Jews."
>
>>> We have seen many postings here which have stated that
>>> Reform Jews are not practicing Judaism.
>
>>> It is true that Reform Jews are not practicing Orthodox
>>> Judaism, but the statement that they are not practicing
>>> Judaism is offensive.
>
>>I'm sure it's offensive. But it is _NOT_, repeat _NOT_, the same
>>as saying "Reform Jews are not Jewish". _That_ is the canard that
>>Cindy is complaining about.
>
> I repeat my statement. There have been many postings on
> this newsgroup which insist that Reform and Conservative
> Jews are not practicing Judaism.
So?
> This is akin to the statements by sects of well-known
> religions which I need not name that those of other
> sects are not practicing that religion, and which has,
> in fact, led to bloodshed in the past and even now.
Wow, what an example of moral equivalence. If Muslims kill other
Muslims whom they accuse of not following Islam, then Orthodox Jews
might do it too. Shame on you Herman. I really didn't expect such a
comaprison from you.
cindys
"KarenElizabeth" <karenel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1190717967.9...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Tim, are you referring to the post in which Cindy accused Ha'Aretz of
> trying to incite people against O Jews prior to Yom Kippur by printing
> an article that had nothing to do with Yom Kippur? Or are you
> referring to the one in which she accused Joel of the same? Or are we
> forgetting that what began this thread was her raising the *old
> canard* (to use the phrase so beloved by some here) that virtually any
> posts or discussions by non-O posters here is really intended as an
> attack on O Jews?
He's referring to the post where Matt posted that his "best explanation" for
why at an R funeral, the O sons of the deceased went off to the side to
recite private prayers was that they did not consider that the Reform Jews
at the funeral were "really Jewish."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
snip
> I have (unfortunately) gone to a number of Jewish funerals in my city. There
> was up until recently only one Jewish mortician/funeral parlor. So, he did
> all the Jewish funerals, whether the person was O, C, or R. I don't think I
> have ever attended an R funeral, so I can't speak for that, but at all the C
> and O funerals I have attended, what I have seen (including at my father's
> a"h funeral) was that the family and friends would each put a couple of
> shovelfuls of dirt in the grave. When everyone who wanted to do this had
> done so, the mourners et al would leave, and someone else would finish
> filling in the grave. I'm not sure if the "someone else" was someone who
> worked for the funeral parlor or an employee of the cemetary itself. It's
> almost as if that's "just how it's done" (where I live), and I've never seen
> anybody question this or do otherwise. Unless, I've just been going to "the
> wrong funerals," or I never paid attention as the deceased's son dutifully
> finished filling in the grave and I just assumed it was an employee of the
> cemetary. If David Esan is reading this, perhaps he could comment? It's
> funny how different customs evolve in different places, and nobody thinks
> anything about it until an "outsider" starts questioning it. Hmmm...
That is basically how it's done in Jerusalem, where they are _very_
strict on maintaining local burial customs. Whoever of those who came
to cemetary who wants to, puts a few shovelfuls in. When they have
finished, the members of the Chevra Kadisha - Burial Society - finish
the job, making a mound over the grave and putting stones around it.
May all such discussions be only theoretical!