Yehonatan vs. Yonatan & Hebrew transliteration
Jonathan Makepeace
see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
And is the sheva under the yod in Yehonatan a sheva na or sheva nach?
I am trying to standardize my Hebrew name and its Roman alphabet
transliteration, with an eye toward eventual aliyah. So far this is
my best guess:
Yhonatan Dawid Ose-Shalom
-or-
Yehonatan Dawid Ose-Shalom
... depending on whether that sheva is a sheva na or sheva nach.
This is the UN standard (based on the Israeli standard) for romanizing
Hebrew:
http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_he.pdf
Micha Berger
: Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
: see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
: versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
Such abbreviations are common in Tanach, particularly to avoid writing
(saying?) these three letters of the tetragrammaton. The idolater at the
end of the book of Judges is variously called Michayahu and Michah. (BTW,
the prophet is always called "Michah".) Then there's Yeshaiahu/Yeshaiah
Yirmiyahu/Yirmiyah.
Amongst Israeli tannaim, Rabbis Yehudah often became "R' Yuda". Which
is possably why the Romans rendered our homeland Iudea, not Ihudea.
So my guess is that his full name was Yehonasan, but he was often called
by the shorter name.
However, if you're Jewish, you could have been named either. At this
point, they are different names. I made a point of naming my second son
Yehonasan, with the hei. For that matter I included G-d's name in naming
most of my children. Girls names are fewer, I had less to work with. I
went with Avigayil for my older daughter because the rishonim take it
to mean "my Father's joy", where the Father is the one in heaven. For
my younger daugher, I didn't see anything that we otherwise liked.
: And is the sheva under the yod in Yehonatan a sheva na or sheva nach?
A sheva under the first letter is always na (pronounced). The mesoretic
notes on the side of my Miqra'os Gedolos don't say Yehonasan is an
exception.
(MG is a name given to any of a large number of heavily commentaried
editions of Tanach, generally a 20 volume or so set. There is also MG's
that only cover Chumash. The name, meaning "Great/Large Scriptures",
originally referred to the size of the typeface of the core text!)
: Yehonatan Dawid Ose-Shalom
I find it odd that they're using w for vuv, but not dh for the undotted
dalet at the end of David.
: This is the UN standard (based on the Israeli standard) for romanizing
: Hebrew: http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_he.pdf
Thanks for the URL. Usefull reference.
-mi
--
Micha Berger For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (413) 403-9905
Jonathan Makepeace
obvious. BTW, the proper transliteration would be:
Yehonatan Dawid 'Ose-Shalom
While one doesn't transliterate an initial silent aleph, an initial
ayin calls for a single open quotation mark.
Shabbat Shalom!
Yoni
jonathanNOS...@yahoo.ca (Jonathan Makepeace) wrote in message news:<eb6c3e2f.02032...@posting.google.com>...
Jonathan Makepeace
> A sheva under the first letter is always na (pronounced). The mesoretic
> notes on the side of my Miqra'os Gedolos don't say Yehonasan is an
> exception.
Thank you, Micha.
I knew that it would normally be pronounced, but I found several
examples of people who transliterated Yehonatan as "Yhonatan,"
including an Israeli who transliterated his name that way in his
e-mail address. This made me wonder whether I was either
misunderstanding the transliteration rules or unaware of an obscure
exception. Your message makes me feel confident that I've got it
right.
I think I will use Yehonatan as my civil name, though I am pretty sure
my religious name is Yonatan. I'll have to go check the records to be
certain. I am named after Prince Jonathan based on the story in the
books of Samuel.
Shabbat shalom!
Kol tuv,
Yoni
John W. Leys
>
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:42:24 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Makepeace <jonathanNOS...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> : Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
> : see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
> : versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
>
> Such abbreviations are common in Tanach, particularly to avoid writing
> (saying?) these three letters of the tetragrammaton. The idolater at the
> end of the book of Judges is variously called Michayahu and Michah. (BTW,
> the prophet is always called "Michah".) Then there's Yeshaiahu/Yeshaiah
> Yirmiyahu/Yirmiyah.
>
Is this the reason why `eliyahu is referred to as 'eliyah in Malachi
3:23? I've always wondered about that myself- mostly because 'eliyahu is
my hebrew name.
--
Shalom!
John W. Leys
"Come on, then, back to Creation. I mustn't waste any more time.
They'll think I've lost control again and put it all down to evolution."
- The Supreme Being
from 'Time Bandits'
Z
Makepeace <jonathanNOS...@yahoo.ca> writes
The latter reads easier as the e spaces out the two tall letters.
Both are OK.
X-SCJM-Force-Mod: yes
X-NO-ARCHIVE: yes
--
Z
Remove Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
Z
Makepeace <jonathanNOS...@yahoo.ca> writes
>obvious. BTW, the proper transliteration would be:
We are not all Masters of Hebrew. I for instance struggle with
elementary Hebrew and reading.
Chag Sameach Pesach
>
>Yehonatan Dawid 'Ose-Shalom
>
>While one doesn't transliterate an initial silent aleph, an initial
>ayin calls for a single open quotation mark.
>
>Shabbat Shalom!
>
>Yoni
>
>jonathanNOS...@yahoo.ca (Jonathan Makepeace) wrote in message
>news:<eb6c3e2f.02032...@posting.google.com>...
>> Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
>> see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
>> versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
>>
>> And is the sheva under the yod in Yehonatan a sheva na or sheva nach?
>>
>> I am trying to standardize my Hebrew name and its Roman alphabet
>> transliteration, with an eye toward eventual aliyah. So far this is
>> my best guess:
>>
>> Yhonatan Dawid Ose-Shalom
>> -or-
>> Yehonatan Dawid Ose-Shalom
>>
>> ... depending on whether that sheva is a sheva na or sheva nach.
>>
>> This is the UN standard (based on the Israeli standard) for romanizing
>> Hebrew:
>> http://www.eki.ee/wgrs/rom1_he.pdf
X-SCJM-Force-Mod: yes
Z
<elija...@yahoo.com> writes
>Micha Berger wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:42:24 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Makepeace <jonathanNOSPAMma
>kep...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> : Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
>> : see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
>> : versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
>>
>> Such abbreviations are common in Tanach, particularly to avoid writing
>> (saying?) these three letters of the tetragrammaton. The idolater at the
>> end of the book of Judges is variously called Michayahu and Michah. (BTW,
>> the prophet is always called "Michah".) Then there's Yeshaiahu/Yeshaiah
>> Yirmiyahu/Yirmiyah.
>>
>
>Is this the reason why `eliyahu is referred to as 'eliyah in Malachi
>3:23? I've always wondered about that myself- mostly because 'eliyahu is
>my hebrew name.
>
Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
man)?
I quite like this etymology thing but I got into trouble for using the
internet for it at work when things were slack, though the internet I
have at home is cheap enough to use now.
Z
Makepeace <jonathanNOS...@yahoo.ca> writes
A freemason was asking me if I knew the story about Jonathan in the 'old
testament'. I hadn't linked the Yonatan and Jonathan as the same as I'm
usually wrong (I got it wrong about Yaron being a different
transliteration of Aaron/ Aharon for instance).
Thestory is theystayed friends after David had fought off Goliath?
I hate my Tanakh not having a proper index. The index is the most
important part of a book.
X-SCJM-Force-Mod: yes
X-NO-ARCHIVE: yes
Micha Berger
: Thestory is theystayed friends after David had fought off Goliath?
Yes. Even though it was the begining of David's rise to power and
Jonathan would have otherwise been Saul's successor. As Saul chased David
throughout the country, seeing his threat to the throne as a threat to
the country, Jonathan (Saul's son) actually helped David escape.
A very apt model for the kind of fraternity Freemasonry strives to
promote. For the kind of fraternity Judaism strives to promote too.
<grin>
-mi
--
Micha Berger When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org You light a candle.
Fax: (413) 403-9905 - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l
Micha Berger
: Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
John <- Johann (Ger) <- .. <- Yochanan (Heb)
: My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
: Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
: man)?
Well, there's a slight disjoin here because last names aren't inherently
a Hebrew concept. Whereas many English first names come from Hebrew,
almost no (*) last names do.
(*) A few patronimic last names did start off in Hebrew. For example,
Rashi is called by the acronym of Rav Shelomo Yitzchaqi. While many
believe his father's name was Yitzchak (Isaac), it is quite likely
that Isaac was an earlier ancestor, whomever started the family's
vinyards. Vitners were often called by the vinyard's name, much as
royalty were called by the name of the area they ruled even before
surnames became common for everyone. In fact, I actually met a person
named Isaacson whose family believes they are carrying Rashi's surname
and are of direct male lineage.
But whether or not that theory is accurate, I'm sure some of the
Duvidowitzes and Chaimovitches out there were originally 'ben David'
and 'ben Chaim'.
John W. Leys
>
> In article <3C9D1664...@yahoo.com>, John W. Leys
> <elija...@yahoo.com> writes
> >Micha Berger wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:42:24 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Makepeace <jonathanNOSPAMma
> >kep...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >> : Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
> >> : see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
> >> : versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
> >>
> >> Such abbreviations are common in Tanach, particularly to avoid writing
> >> (saying?) these three letters of the tetragrammaton. The idolater at the
> >> end of the book of Judges is variously called Michayahu and Michah. (BTW,
> >> the prophet is always called "Michah".) Then there's Yeshaiahu/Yeshaiah
> >> Yirmiyahu/Yirmiyah.
> >>
> >
> >Is this the reason why `eliyahu is referred to as 'eliyah in Malachi
> >3:23? I've always wondered about that myself- mostly because 'eliyahu is
> >my hebrew name.
> >
>
> Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
actually the English name 'John' is ultimately derived from the Hebrew
'Yohanan'
But my Hebrew name and my English/Civil name are completely unrelated.
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
> Rashi is called by the acronym of Rav Shelomo Yitzchaqi.
And then there are the Hebrew occupational surnames; Schochet in all its
variants, Sofer, Dayan, derivatives of Rav/Rabi; these and others are even
more common among Sefardim and other non-Ashkenazi communities (especially
Iran, where Jewish families bear names such as Chasidim - pious; Zakaim -
pure; Neemanim - faithful and others that are Hebrew and often in the plural
form).
Ian
John W. Leys
>
> Z wrote:
> >
> > Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
>
> actually the English name 'John' is ultimately derived from the Hebrew
> 'Yohanan'
>
That should read 'Yochanan.' I misread the chet for a hey. Thats what I
get for posting late at night I guess =)
Jonathan J. Baker
>In article <3C9D1664...@yahoo.com>, John W. Leys
>>> Jonathan Makepeace <jonathanNOSPAMma
>>> : Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
>>> : see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
>>> : versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
>>> Such abbreviations are common in Tanach, particularly to avoid writing
>>> (saying?) these three letters of the tetragrammaton. The idolater at the
>>> end of the book of Judges is variously called Michayahu and Michah. (BTW,
>>> the prophet is always called "Michah".) Then there's Yeshaiahu/Yeshaiah
>>> Yirmiyahu/Yirmiyah.
>>Is this the reason why `eliyahu is referred to as 'eliyah in Malachi
>>3:23? I've always wondered about that myself- mostly because 'eliyahu is
>>my hebrew name.
I think that's a Northern Kingdom vs. Southern Kingdom thing, that in
one the theophoric names end in -yah, and in the other they end in -yahu.
>Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
No, Yochanan. Which became Johannes, and in English's drive to shorten
things, John.
>My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
>Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
>man)?
Don't know. Pesach? One Frank I know became Yaakov when he converted.
Ben-Horin would be the direct translation. How about Ovadiah, as in
"we were freed from Egypt so we could serve God"?
Jeremy: do you happen to know Uncle Frank's Hebrew name?
>I quite like this etymology thing but I got into trouble for using the
>internet for it at work when things were slack, though the internet I
>have at home is cheap enough to use now.
--
Jonathan Baker | Mishenichnas Nisan mim'atin bechametz.
jjb...@panix.com | From the beginning of Nisan, we reduce chametz.
Web page <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker>
Garry
<mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:16:46 +0000 (UTC), Z <po...@imazzzzris.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: Thestory is theystayed friends after David had fought off Goliath?
>
>Yes. Even though it was the begining of David's rise to power and
>Jonathan would have otherwise been Saul's successor. As Saul chased David
>throughout the country, seeing his threat to the throne as a threat to
>the country, Jonathan (Saul's son) actually helped David escape.
>
>A very apt model for the kind of fraternity Freemasonry strives to
>promote. For the kind of fraternity Judaism strives to promote too.
><grin>
>
>-mi
There are interesting undercurrents in the story of something more
than fraternal bonding. It is the young, ruddy bright-eyed david that
Jonathan sees, and gives his heart to, 1 shmuel 18 We are repeatedly
told that Jonathan loved David,and at their parting they kiss.
Saul derides Jonathan as a son of perversity, who shames his mother's
nakedness by his love for david. 1 shmuel 20. After Jonathan's
death, David describes their love as surpassing his love for women
_________
A Haggadah that feeds the hungry! A carefully translated, revised, and gender-neutral Haggadah with the structure and feeling of the traditional one. Handsomely printed. The entire purchase price goes to charity.
www.haggadah.freeservers.com
Hillel Sabba Markowitz
The name of the prince is shown in some places as Yonatan (without the
hei) and in some places as Y'honatan (with the hei). So someone named
after him could be either.
--
Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore."
The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water.
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - sabb...@bcpl.net
toichen
delayed till after Shabbat because all the moderators are in Chutz
Laaretz and therefore keep 2 days YomTov Henry Goodman ]
Garry <GAR...@USA.withoutaNET.easynews.com> wrote in message news:<fh74aucfp0nt5evjr...@4ax.com>...
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:33:54 +0000 (UTC), Micha Berger
> <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:16:46 +0000 (UTC), Z <po...@imazzzzris.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >: Thestory is theystayed friends after David had fought off Goliath?
> >
> >Yes. Even though it was the begining of David's rise to power and
> >Jonathan would have otherwise been Saul's successor. As Saul chased David
> >throughout the country, seeing his threat to the throne as a threat to
> >the country, Jonathan (Saul's son) actually helped David escape.
> >
> >A very apt model for the kind of fraternity Freemasonry strives to
> >promote. For the kind of fraternity Judaism strives to promote too.
> ><grin>
> >
> >-mi
> There are interesting undercurrents in the story of something more
> than fraternal bonding. It is the young, ruddy bright-eyed david that
> Jonathan sees, and gives his heart to, 1 shmuel 18 We are repeatedly
> told that Jonathan loved David,and at their parting they kiss.
> Saul derides Jonathan as a son of perversity, who shames his mother's
> nakedness by his love for david. 1 shmuel 20. After Jonathan's
> death, David describes their love as surpassing his love for women
This is the sort of post that I mean.
toichen
Garry
I'm aware of the other interpretations, toichen, I just don't think
they end the examination.
Micha Berger
: There are interesting undercurrents in the story of something more
: than fraternal bonding...
Only in the eyes of a jaded generation, who can not picture a fraternal
bond that could be held more dear than a sexual union.
: Jonathan sees, and gives his heart to, 1 shmuel 18 We are repeatedly
: told that Jonathan loved David,and at their parting they kiss.
That's it! Arafat is gay! As is Prince Abdullah! And Chirac!
Kissing another goodby is the norm in much of the world.
-mi
--
Micha Berger Today is the 2nd day
mi...@aishdas.org in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Gevurah sheb'Chesed: What is constricted
Fax: (413) 403-9905 Chesed
Z
<mi...@aishdas.org> writes
>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:16:46 +0000 (UTC), Z <po...@imazzzzris.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: Thestory is theystayed friends after David had fought off Goliath?
>
>Yes. Even though it was the begining of David's rise to power and
>Jonathan would have otherwise been Saul's successor. As Saul chased David
>throughout the country, seeing his threat to the throne as a threat to
>the country, Jonathan (Saul's son) actually helped David escape.
>
>A very apt model for the kind of fraternity Freemasonry strives to
>promote. For the kind of fraternity Judaism strives to promote too.
><grin>
>
>-mi
>
within Freemasonr.y
Z
<jjb...@panix.com> writes
>In <Yq1R6sU+...@imaris.demon.co.uk> Z <po...@imaZZZZris.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>In article <3C9D1664...@yahoo.com>, John W. Leys
>>>Micha Berger wrote:
>>>> Jonathan Makepeace <jonathanNOSPAMma
>>>> : Which was the name of King Saul's son, Yehonatan or Yonatan? All I
>>>> : see in the Books of Samuel is Yehonatan, but I am told that both
>>>> : versions are used with equal frequency in the TaNaKh.
>
>>>> Such abbreviations are common in Tanach, particularly to avoid writing
>>>> (saying?) these three letters of the tetragrammaton. The idolater at the
>>>> end of the book of Judges is variously called Michayahu and Michah. (BTW,
>>>> the prophet is always called "Michah".) Then there's Yeshaiahu/Yeshaiah
>>>> Yirmiyahu/Yirmiyah.
>
>>>Is this the reason why `eliyahu is referred to as 'eliyah in Malachi
>>>3:23? I've always wondered about that myself- mostly because 'eliyahu is
>>>my hebrew name.
>
>I think that's a Northern Kingdom vs. Southern Kingdom thing, that in
>one the theophoric names end in -yah, and in the other they end in -yahu.
>
>>Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
>
>No, Yochanan. Which became Johannes, and in English's drive to shorten
>things, John.
There is a well known trance DJ in Israel called DJ Yaniv though by DJ
standards it isn't necessarily his first name it could be a nickname. I
know a Greek fellow called Yanis and he said it was John in English. I
just figured.
>
>>My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
>>Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
>>man)?
>
>Don't know. Pesach? One Frank I know became Yaakov when he converted.
>Ben-Horin would be the direct translation. How about Ovadiah, as in
>"we were freed from Egypt so we could serve God"?
I was just wondering. The name Frank has no Hebrew roots.
>
>Jeremy: do you happen to know Uncle Frank's Hebrew name?
>
>>I quite like this etymology thing but I got into trouble for using the
>>internet for it at work when things were slack, though the internet I
>>have at home is cheap enough to use now.
>
--
Z
<mi...@aishdas.org> writes
>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:38:39 +0000 (UTC), Garry <GAR...@usa.withoutanet.easynews
>.com> wrote:
>: There are interesting undercurrents in the story of something more
>: than fraternal bonding...
>
>Only in the eyes of a jaded generation, who can not picture a fraternal
>bond that could be held more dear than a sexual union.
Mates are mates. Birds come and go.
>
>: Jonathan sees, and gives his heart to, 1 shmuel 18 We are repeatedly
>: told that Jonathan loved David,and at their parting they kiss.
I thought it was only the British who were repressed. This does not
infer any homo-erotic kiss.
>
>That's it! Arafat is gay! As is Prince Abdullah! And Chirac!
>
>Kissing another goodby is the norm in much of the world.
>
>-mi
>
--
Garry
<mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:38:39 +0000 (UTC), Garry <GAR...@usa.withoutanet.easynews.com> wrote:
>: There are interesting undercurrents in the story of something more
>: than fraternal bonding...
>
>Only in the eyes of a jaded generation, who can not picture a fraternal
>bond that could be held more dear than a sexual union.
Why could it not be both? Can only a jaded generation see the love
between Avraham and Sarah as romantic?
>: Jonathan sees, and gives his heart to, 1 shmuel 18 We are repeatedly
>: told that Jonathan loved David,and at their parting they kiss.
>
>That's it! Arafat is gay! As is Prince Abdullah! And Chirac!
>
>Kissing another goodby is the norm in much of the world.
>
>-mi
You quote selectively, Micha
The torah says that as soon as Jonathan sees David and hears him tell
Saul his name, the soul of Jonathan became bound up with David's
soul, and he loved him like his own soul. This sounds more like love
at first sight than the relationship between Abdullah and Arafat. Nor
can I imagine either of them saying that they love each other more
than they loved women. Nor has the father of one of them criticize
their friendship using the word perversity.
It's hardly conclusive, I agree. But the undercurrent is there.
You're free to draw your own conclusions.
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
>
> That's it! Arafat is gay!
Only if those who engage in biah shelo kedarka with rams as opposed to ewes
are considered gay as opposed to bestialist. Regardless of his proclivities,
tzorer hayehudim ymach shmo is truly bestial.
Ian
Jonathan J. Baker
Worse than. Animals kill for food, or for defense. Nature may be red
in tooth and claw, but animals don't tend to kill other animals for political
gain.
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
> >are considered gay as opposed to bestialist. Regardless of his
proclivities,
> >tzorer hayehudim ymach shmo is truly bestial.
>
> Worse than. Animals kill for food, or for defense. Nature may be red
> in tooth and claw, but animals don't tend to kill other animals for
political
> gain.
Some, including the feline species (from our furry friends on up to the
mascots of Exxon and Dreyfus) kill their own young for the sake of
territory. This is the level of tzorer hayehudim ymach shmo, who, unlike any
of the felines, is truly a hideous beast.
Ian
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
Ian
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
> actually the English name 'John' is ultimately derived from the Hebrew
> 'Yohanan'
And Rabbi Yochanan was known as Ha'shravrav, for he was a plumber. Hence the
slang term john.
Ian
Z
<mi...@aishdas.org> writes
>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:16:27 +0000 (UTC), Z <po...@imazzzzris.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
>
>John <- Johann (Ger) <- .. <- Yochanan (Heb)
>
>: My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
>: Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
>: man)?
>
>Well, there's a slight disjoin here because last names aren't inherently
>a Hebrew concept. Whereas many English first names come from Hebrew,
>almost no (*) last names do.
Mine does.
So there is not a nearest Hebrew name to Frank?
>
>(*) A few patronimic last names did start off in Hebrew. For example,
>Rashi is called by the acronym of Rav Shelomo Yitzchaqi. While many
>believe his father's name was Yitzchak (Isaac), it is quite likely
>that Isaac was an earlier ancestor, whomever started the family's
>vinyards. Vitners were often called by the vinyard's name, much as
>royalty were called by the name of the area they ruled even before
>surnames became common for everyone. In fact, I actually met a person
>named Isaacson whose family believes they are carrying Rashi's surname
>and are of direct male lineage.
>
>But whether or not that theory is accurate, I'm sure some of the
>Duvidowitzes and Chaimovitches out there were originally 'ben David'
>and 'ben Chaim'.
>
>-mi
>
What is the suffix Witz/Wicz/Vic mean?
Most of the Germanic sounding surnames had to be bought.
Michael Shimshoni
Z <po...@imaZZZZris.demon.co.uk% writes:
%In article <a7set7$npogm$2...@ID-113975.news.dfncis.de>, Micha Berger
%<mi...@aishdas.org> writes
%>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:16:27 +0000 (UTC), Z <po...@imazzzzris.demon.co.uk> wrote:
%>: Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
%>
%>John <- Johann (Ger) <- .. <- Yochanan (Heb)
%>
%>: My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
%>: Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
%>: man)?
What is your surname? Z short for tsade?
%>
%>Well, there's a slight disjoin here because last names aren't inherently
%>a Hebrew concept. Whereas many English first names come from Hebrew,
%>almost no (*) last names do.
%
%Mine does.
%So there is not a nearest Hebrew name to Frank?
%>
%>(*) A few patronimic last names did start off in Hebrew. For example,
%>Rashi is called by the acronym of Rav Shelomo Yitzchaqi. While many
%>believe his father's name was Yitzchak (Isaac), it is quite likely
%>that Isaac was an earlier ancestor, whomever started the family's
%>vinyards. Vitners were often called by the vinyard's name, much as
%>royalty were called by the name of the area they ruled even before
%>surnames became common for everyone. In fact, I actually met a person
%>named Isaacson whose family believes they are carrying Rashi's surname
%>and are of direct male lineage.
%>
%>But whether or not that theory is accurate, I'm sure some of the
%>Duvidowitzes and Chaimovitches out there were originally 'ben David'
%>and 'ben Chaim'.
%>
%>-mi
%>
%
%What is the suffix Witz/Wicz/Vic mean?
AFAIK simply son of.
%Most of the Germanic sounding surnames had to be bought.
Some, surely not most. Often Germanic surnames are the name of a
place with "er" added to it. Hamburger, Kissinger, Berliner (no,
not coined by JFK) etc.
%Z
Michael Shimshoni
Creedmoor Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania)
Son of (ben). Davidowitz - ben David. Moskowitz - probably from Moshe.
Ian
Garry
<po...@imaZZZZris.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>What is the suffix Witz/Wicz/Vic mean?
"son of" (Russian). Interesting how many different cultures have a
version of this.
Herman Rubin
I did not notice the earlier post. Animals kill for
territory, and non-human primates hunt down members of
other tribes of the same species, and also those of their
tribe who have left.
This latter is definitely for "political gain".
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Z
<MA...@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il> writes
>In article <vrJM6bCN...@imaris.demon.co.uk%
>Z <po...@imaZZZZris.demon.co.uk% writes:
>
>%In article <a7set7$npogm$2...@ID-113975.news.dfncis.de>, Micha Berger
>%<mi...@aishdas.org> writes
>%>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:16:27 +0000 (UTC), Z <po...@imazzzzris.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>%>: Yaniv is the Hebrew name nearest to John?
>%>
>%>John <- Johann (Ger) <- .. <- Yochanan (Heb)
>%>
>%>: My Surname is pretty straightforward but what would be the nearest
>%>: Hebrew equivalent of Frank (which is compounded French/German for Free
>%>: man)?
>
>What is your surname?
The name after my forename. See below :-)
>Z short for tsade?
Z has nothing to do with my name. It was a random high scrabble score
letter.
>
>%>
>%>Well, there's a slight disjoin here because last names aren't inherently
>%>a Hebrew concept. Whereas many English first names come from Hebrew,
>%>almost no (*) last names do.
>%
>%Mine does.
>%So there is not a nearest Hebrew name to Frank?
>%>
>%>(*) A few patronimic last names did start off in Hebrew. For example,
>%>Rashi is called by the acronym of Rav Shelomo Yitzchaqi.
I didn't know that.
>While many
>%>believe his father's name was Yitzchak (Isaac), it is quite likely
>%>that Isaac was an earlier ancestor, whomever started the family's
>%>vinyards. Vitners were often called by the vinyard's name, much as
>%>royalty were called by the name of the area they ruled even before
>%>surnames became common for everyone. In fact, I actually met a person
>%>named Isaacson whose family believes they are carrying Rashi's surname
>%>and are of direct male lineage.
>%>
>%>But whether or not that theory is accurate, I'm sure some of the
>%>Duvidowitzes and Chaimovitches out there were originally 'ben David'
>%>and 'ben Chaim'.
Yes.
There are plenty of Davidsohns in the Zhydowski Cmentarz's of Poland and
Jewish Graveyards of Germany.
>%>
>%>-mi
>%>
>%
>%What is the suffix Witz/Wicz/Vic mean?
>
>AFAIK simply son of.
>
>%Most of the Germanic sounding surnames had to be bought.
>
>Some, surely not most. Often Germanic surnames are the name of a
>place with "er" added to it. Hamburger, Kissinger, Berliner (no,
>not coined by JFK) etc.
>
Jews had to buy surnames in the middle ages.
>%Z
>
> Michael Shimshoni
Z
Chronicles, Ltd. (Tirana, Albania) <icsrc...@matrix.ru> writes
>> What is the suffix Witz/Wicz/Vic mean?
>
>Son of (ben). Davidowitz - ben David. Moskowitz - probably from Moshe.
>
>Ian
Memory man!