Elian Gonzales and Sean Goldman
mm
How many of you were reading this group when Elian Gonzales was a
topic of conversation?
How do you feel about the claim by his father for custody of Sean
Goldman, a boy taken by his mother, without the agreement** of his
father David (prior to his knowing she was leaving him) to Brazil?
How do you feel about his claim before she died; after she died? Five
years ago.
How did you feel about the claim by Elian Gonzales's father for
custody of Elian? a boy taken by his mother, without the agreement of
his father, to Florida. Or almost to Florida because she died on the
way, and other people took him the rest of hte way.
Compare and contrast the two.
This will count for 10% of your grade.
**"When she arrived in Brazil, she called her husband, American David
Goldman, to inform him she was divorcing and was never returning to
the US." For this assignment, assume this is true.
Extra credit: How does it affect your opinion if David Goldman is a
Jew? If he is not?
--
Meir
"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
mm
<NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Elian Gonzales and Sean Goldman
>
>How many of you were reading this group when Elian Gonzales was a
>topic of conversation?
The question is now open to people who weren't reading the group at
that time.
fla...@verizon.net
On 23-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Elian Gonzales and Sean Goldman
>
> How many of you were reading this group when Elian Gonzales was a
> topic of conversation?
>
> How do you feel about the claim by his father for custody of Sean
> Goldman, a boy taken by his mother, without the agreement** of his
> father David (prior to his knowing she was leaving him) to Brazil?
> How do you feel about his claim before she died; after she died? Five
> years ago.
>
> How did you feel about the claim by Elian Gonzales's father for
> custody of Elian? a boy taken by his mother, without the agreement of
> his father, to Florida. Or almost to Florida because she died on the
> way, and other people took him the rest of hte way.
>
> Compare and contrast the two.
You don't give enough information to make a full comparison.
Elian Gonzales was specifically brought to the *US* by the
custodial parent because she was convinced life was better
for him.
Nothing you stated here says *why* Sean Goldman was
taken to Brazil. FWIR, it was simply where his mother
happened to be living when she took him. Also, you say
"he's a Jew", but , FWIR, his mother was not Jewish -
did he convert?
AFAICS, it is not the same type of story at all - the
Goldman case seems like pure spite and the Gonzales
case one of opposing ideologies.
(One news story I saw was entitled "David Goldman Gets
best Xmas Ever" - are you sure the father is Jewish?)
Susan
mm
>
>On 23-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> Elian Gonzales and Sean Goldman
>>
>> How many of you were reading this group when Elian Gonzales was a
>> topic of conversation?
>>
>> How do you feel about the claim by his father for custody of Sean
>> Goldman, a boy taken by his mother, without the agreement** of his
>> father David (prior to his knowing she was leaving him) to Brazil?
>> How do you feel about his claim before she died; after she died? Five
>> years ago.
I was wrong about this. His mother took him five years ago, and
during part of the next four years she wouldn't let his father see
him, even in Brazil. She died only a year ago. One tv station
pointed out that they have been calling it a custody dispute, but
under international law, [and I'll bet US law], it was child
abduction.
>> How did you feel about the claim by Elian Gonzales's father for
>> custody of Elian? a boy taken by his mother, without the agreement of
>> his father, to Florida. Or almost to Florida because she died on the
>> way, and other people took him the rest of hte way.
>>
>> Compare and contrast the two.
>
>You don't give enough information to make a full comparison.
You're right. For some reason, I wrote as if everyone knew.
>Elian Gonzales was specifically brought to the *US* by the
>custodial parent because she was convinced life was better
>for him.
>Nothing you stated here says *why* Sean Goldman was
>taken to Brazil. FWIR, it was simply where his mother
>happened to be living when she took him.
That's where her family was from, her rich, important family, and she
figured life would be better for him there, with her and with her
rich, important family.
> Also, you say
>"he's a Jew", but , FWIR, his mother was not Jewish -
>did he convert?
I didn't say he was a Jew. I said: "How does it affect your opinion
if David Goldman is a Jew? If he is not?"
I don't know if he's or anyone in the story is a Jew or not. (David
Goldman is a "Jewish name", but that's not enough to know anymore.
I know that it breaks my heart to think that he has been separated
from his father, especially since he has been the sole remaining
parent, and it would break my heart worse if he's a Jew or if his
father is.
>AFAICS, it is not the same type of story at all - the
>Goldman case seems like pure spite
It's certainly not pure spite, and I'm not sure it's spite at all.
What do they think he did to their daughter or their grandson that
would make them spiteful.
I don't think so. I think she wanted to go back home to Brazil and she
wanted her son with her. When she died, her parents wanted to keep
him because they liked him, they're possessive, and she made whatever
faults the father had into bigggg faults that gave the grandparents an
excuse to keep him. In their minds their motive was to give him a
better place to live. (And if you disregard that he has a father, it
probably is a better place to live, because there he gets to be rich
and grow up to be important, if he only just tries a moderate amount.
Why, if his grandparents want him to be rich, they can't just send him
his share of the money while he lives with his father, or after he's
grown, I don't know, but it seems that it never works that way.
>and the Gonzales
>case one of opposing ideologies.
That was certainly part of it, but I'll bet you can find some spite
there too. Castro and the Communists ruined their lives (maybe, at
least he ruined a lot of lives, maybe theirs). We had a nice business
in Cuba and he took it away from us and now we live in this tiny house
in Miami (I saw the house on the news. It seemed tiny.) Having Elian
in Florida would have been a victory and in a manner of speaking,
taught Castro a lesson.
>(One news story I saw was entitled "David Goldman Gets
>best Xmas Ever" - are you sure the father is Jewish?)
I don't know if he is or not, all but by the same token, news isn't
really news anymore and a reporter or headline writer might attach
xmas to the story's headline just because it's xmas-time** and not
because his father was gong to take any notice of it at all. (Though
maybe he has to if the kid has had a big xmas in Brazil for the last 5
years. He may have to wean him away from it slowly, by next year.)
The overwhelming similarity is that, unless they abuse him, a child
should be with his parents. and when only one is still alive, the
child shoudl be with that one.
And the grandparents gave evidence of that last week. Even though the
American consulate told the grandparents that they could come in
thorugh the back entrance to a tunnel underneath the building, where
they could drop him off quietly, instead they parked the car out front
and pulled him through a horde of reporters and photographers. I
don't think that was in the boy's interest. There may have been --
I'm not sure -- presented some evidence that they have been filling
his head with what would be loshon hora or even lies about his father.
But that is small potatoes compared to the overwhelming truth that if
the surviving parent wants to be a parent, that's where the child
belongs.
>Susan
**This is another one of my complaints about tv news, and maybe
newspaper news**. Even though the headline comes first, it's sort of
like what I"ve complained about before, the last line of a story where
tv news people feel obliged to summarize or reach a conclusion or a
moral lesson, which most of the time isn't applicable, isn't supported
by the story, or, often, isn't even true.
**For example I have barely read the New York Post in 26 years and
even in NY, only when I went to one particular girlfriend's house who
usually had it, and I didn't analyse the paper in those days relative
to the complaits I've had in the last 10 or 15 years. But they might
be as bad in the ways I complain about as the worst tv news, maybe
worse.
Jeff Amdur
> On 23-Dec-2009, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
ne of opposing ideologies.
>
> (One news story I saw was entitled "David Goldman Gets
> best Xmas Ever" - are you sure the father is Jewish?)
Outside of the usually-Jewish name Goldman, I have seen no evidence
that the family is Jewish. There was much talk about celebrating
Christmas. I am assuming that this Goldman family is not Jewish. I
have a very good Christian friend whose last name is Friedlander and I
went to college with a devout Catholic gentleman--parents married at
the Vatican--whose last name was Shapira. You just can't tell by
names any more.