japaneese=korean + malay
wallycourie
that japaneese are synthetic
compromised of korean and malay
just as english are
compromises of gaelic and german
paekche koreans invade kyuishi
from 200 to 600 ad
subjugate native malay culture
(similar to phillipine)
and creat high mettled race
which claims origin from no less
that the sun
Expat Authority
Malays
Eskimos,
Pre-Han people from China and Mongolia long before the two existed...
Siberian Natives (go into some villages in the Russian Far East, you will
see lots of Japanese looking
people.
The Korean invasion was 10,000 years later or more.
Just about nobody in Japan knows anything about what was there before 2000
years ago. Even college
professors.
So, Western experts give a better version.
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
wallycourie
Expat Authority wrote:
by malay
is meant that people
that started in malay and
populated
indonesia
phillipines
okinawa
ruyikie island
and japan
coming after the ainu
but before the
koreans ironage
paechans
from Randy Johnson
A Korean Connection to the Japanese Empire
Early Korean Influences on the Japanese Imperial Dynasty
Updated Feb. 8, 1998.
Several years ago, a friend directed me to a book I'd never heard of before. It
was "Korean Impact on Japanese Culture", by Dr. Jon Covell and Alan Covell. They
are Korea scholars who not only pointed out the many cultural influences that
had been brought to Japan via Korea, but also proposed the idea that the
Japanese imperial line may have been taken over by ethnic Koreans sometime in
the fourth century A.D.
I was going over some historical material recently in the Nihongi (the
Chronicles of Japan) and found some material I wanted to compare. So I also
re-read the Covell's book. Here I present some of the interesting and (for me)
unanswered questions that are raised.
I should mention that this kind of speculation is not welcomed by many Japanese
people, who naturally accept the fact that the Japanese people and their
Emperors have descended in an unbroken line, at least back to the turn of the
millenium, if not back to the Sun Goddess at the beginnings of Time. And there
has been a traditional but underlying animosity between the Japanese and Korean
cultures for as long as anyone can remember.
My background is in Japanese culture and language; I've lived in Japan for four
years and have a great appreciation for their traditions and history. Frankly, I
would rather not see their earliest histories proven wrong, but I have an
amateur scholar's curiosity, and I find this question interesting from an
historical perspective.
First, here is some of the historical material from the fourth century in Japan,
as recorded in the Nihongi. Also called the Nihon-Shoki, it was compiled in 720
A.D. at the behest of the Empress of Japan, and is one of the earliest written
chronicles in Japan. (The Kojiki, written only 8 years earlier, recounts
virtually the same stories, but is more difficult to read, repleat with long
songs and poetry). The Nihongi tells the history of the Japanese people from the
earliest creation myths, and through an enumeration of the reigns of each of the
Emperors and Empresses up until 697 A.D. I use the translation by W. G. Aston,
complete with many footnotes and commentaries.
Supposedly, none of this material had been properly written down before (writing
was still something somewhat new to Japan), so most of it had been an oral
tradition for centuries. As a result, while it certainly represents a great deal
of more-or-less factual material (after the creation myths are related), it is
not lent the same verbatim creedence that we might give to more recent
histories. The dates and elapsed times are certainly suspect in any case. We
start with Book 8, The Emperor Chiuai.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 14th Emperor, Chiuai ascended the throne in 191 A.D. Scholars add a minimum
of 120 years to these early dates and in some cases up to 160 years, by
correlation with histories recorded in China and Korea. The commonly accepted
dates of Chiuai's reign are somewhere around 340 A.D.
In the second year of his reign, Chiuai took Oki-naga-tarashi-hime as his
Empress; she was later to succeed him as the Empress Jingo. Previously he had
three sons by two different consorts.
Unlike the introduction of most Imperial Chapters, the Nihongi does not mention
where Chiuai set up his new palace. The previous Emperor Seimu, his father, was
buried in Saki (near Osaka), so we are left to assume that he, like most rulers
of this time, lived around the area of Naniha (Osaka) and Yamato, just to the
east.
Chiuai desired to conquer the land of Kumaso, in southern Kyushu Island. But a
God came to Jingo and told her that the Emperor should instead conquer the
wealthy land of Mukatsu ("Over There"), which Aston identifies as the Silla
kingdom in Korea. But the Emperor refused, saying that he had climbed the hill
and could see nothing at all across the sea. The God came to Chiuai and told him
that because of his impudence, he would never conquer Mukatsu, but that its rule
would be left to the son just conceived in the Empress Jingo. Chiuai tried to
subjugate Kumaso instead, but without success. In the ninth year of his reign he
died; one chronicle says in was in battle against Kumaso, another that he died
soon after the God prophesied his unborn son's fate. (Several different versions
are recounted in the Nihongi.)
Jingo and her regent decided to conceal the death of the Emperor from the
people. It is not clear what they may have accomplished by this or when it was
finally divulged. It was not until the "10th month" of her reign that she was
endowed Great Empress, and a year later Chiuai was officially burried (in a
tumulus that probably took long to construct).
Believing that Chiuai had died as a direct result of the God's curse, Jingo (as
a shaman) called up the Gods to determine which one(s) had spoken to her and
Chiuai previously, so that she could give offerings, reportedly so that she
could successfully obtain the treasured land of Mukatsu. The God identified
itself a 'the lady of sky-distant Mukatsu'.
Very soon after Chiuai's death, Jingo decided to embark on the conquest of
Mukatsu (Korea) and gathered an army and navy. On the sea they were buoyed up by
winds and currents so favorable that the tide carried them all the way to Silla,
in the interior of Korea -- completely passing over the Kaya and Paekche
kingdoms! Having reached Silla without effort, her armies battled south,
conquering the other kingdoms on the way to the sea, and securing promises of
servitute from all the Korean rulers.
At the time for the delivery of her child, Jingo was still in Korea, and she
'stopped up her loins with a stone' to delay the delivery so that her son could
be born in Japan, where she wanted him to rule. After arriving in Kyushu, Jingo
gave birth to the future Emperor Ojin, after over 11 months of pregnancy. [This
looks suspiciously like an attempt to attribute the child's imperial parentage
to Emperor Chiuai, who had died at least 11 months previously.]
Having reached Kyushu, her armies proceeded back to Naniha, and immediatly took
on the task of "Subjugating Yamato". Yamato was part of the heartland of the
Japanese Imperial dynasty, just east of Naniha, but (at least by the time of the
writing of the chronicles) was also used as the name for the empire ruled by the
Japanese emperors. This subjugation (of an area that Jingo had only recently
left as the Emperor's widow) entailed the defeat, and death in battle, of the
two older sons of Chiuai, who could have been heirs to the imperial throne. Only
after these conquests was Jingo declared officially the Grand Empress.
Recall that Chiuai professed total ignorance of the existence of any lands
across the sea. However, following the acent of Jingo as Empress, the Nihongi is
filled with constant references to Korea. Not just for a few generations, but
for hundreds and hundreds of years, scarcely a page goes by without entries
about the visits, tributes, and historical happenings in the Korean kingdoms (or
'colonies') of Paekche, Silla, and Koryo. Fully half of the dated entries refer
to Korea. 'The king of Paekche died', 'Paekche sent an envoy', 'envoys visited
Koryo'. Under the Emperor Ojin, Jingo's son, armies were sent again to subjugate
unrully vassals in Paekche.
I had "read through" the Nihongi before, but this time it amazed me to see the
amount of importance given to these Korean connections over the centuries. This
is not proof of anything other than the very close relationship between Japan
and Korea over many centuries. It is well recognized that Korea (eventually)
acted as the main intermediary source of the higher forms of culture that
originated in China -- learning, writing, religion,architecture, metal-craft,
textiles, pottery and so on. This closeness of political commerce between Japan
and Korea beginning in the early fourth century was certainly the beginnings of
that influx of cultural influence, but it well pre-dates the obvious influences
that began to appear later, in the Japapese adaptation of Chinese forms of
architecture, writing, learning, and religion in the seventh and eighth
centuries.
Another explanation for this phenomenon relates to the scarcity of early written
Japanese records. While the first chronicles did not appear in Japan until the
eighth century, writing was certainly known among court scholars and scribes
back into the sixth century, and the authors of the Nihongi probably had access
to some court records of this time. For earlier written records, however, they
may have had to look to court records of the (friendly) Korean states, focusing
on those which showed interactions with Japan. It is known that Silla and
Paekche were keeping records in written Chinese by the middle of the fourth
century; although these records no longer exist today, they might likely have
been available to the Japanese court a few centuries later.
That is to say that while in Japan before writing was common, ordinary events
like the arrival of tribute or envoys would not as likely have been preserved by
the oral records, the written Korean records of the same era would have
routinely recorded such interactions, including some that involved Japan. This
might explain the large number of records in the Japanese chronicles of
"routine" transactions that involved Korea, versus routine internal Japanese
affairs that would not have been recorded in writing before the 7th or 8th
century.
One more very startling entry is the fact that 270 years after Jingo, the 30th
Emperor, Bidatsu, is simply recorded as having set up his palace at Oho-wi in
Kudara, the Japanese name for Paekche, Korea! The following Emperor returned the
throne to the Yamato area of Japan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now to the Korean side. This version is taken from "Korean Impact on Japanese
Culture" by Dr. Jon Carter Covell and Alan Covell. (Hollym International Corp.,
1984 -- order). They are Korean history scholars who have published several
historical works and have clearly done research in vernacular Korean histories,
at least as early as the Nihongi. But I have not seen any of their sources
myself and can only pass on what they have reported in their book.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Around 346 A.D. a tribe of shamanistic horsemen called the Puyo fled south from
the main continental area around Manchuria into the Korean peninsula. They were
warlike and succeeded in subjugating -- or at least intermingling with -- the
people of Paekche in northwest Korea. They brought with them a special treasure,
a baby princess of the royal blood of the Puyo line. Her name was Jingu, and her
royal shamanistic bloodline was shared with and revered by the rulers of
Paekche.
When Jingu grew up, the leaders of Paekche deemed to give her in a political
marriage to the leader of the neighboring kingdom of Kaya, an ally of the Silla
kingdom. He was over fifty years old and already had two sons; his name was
Chuai.
Frankly, I'm unclear as to whether the Covell's found the names Jingu and Chuai
in the Korean chronicles, or whether they have started from the point of view
that these Japanese characters were in fact Koreans, and have then reconstructed
their history using those names.
Within a few years, old Chuai died at home, and Jingu feared for her political
fortunes, faced with the rivalry of Chuai's two sons. With the help of her
regent, she gathered an army around her. Here things get fuzzy (or fuzzier).
Alone, her following was not great enough, so she enlisted the alliance of
Paekche with a promise to conquer more new territories (possibly including
Japan). Whether this was a plan to flee militarily from Kaya or simply to gain
armies against her Kaya foes is anyone's guess by this time, but she fully
intended to remain a ruler in her own right and not simply revert to an honored
matron, or be killed as a potential rival. If nothing else, she wanted her
unborn son to be a king. (Make no mistake about it, no matter which version you
like, Jingo/Jingu was one tough woman.)
Her combined armies invaded Silla just to the east, subjugating them and adding
some of their forces to her own. The combined armies fought south with success
and then embarked across the sea to conquer the "Land of Across" (something like
Mukatsu, or 'over there'), meaning Japan. Somewhere along the line she had
became pregnant, possibly by Chuai, but equally as likely by her regent, who was
not himself high enough born to be a king. But the wife and son of King Chuai
were Imperial timber enough, so the child was reported to be a truely royal
conception.
How Chuai's two sons also wound up in Japan in order to be conquered there by
Jingu is also not at all clear, and the Japanese and Korean chronicles are
clearly intermingled by this time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This version would explain how Jingu's forces arrived 'magically' in the
northern parts of Korea and then fought south "back" to Japan. It also provides
a strong explanation for the very close ties between her Empire and those of
Korea, as she (and her lineage) would have been closely related to them
culturally, politcally, and by blood and tradition.
Which version should we believe? Well, as I've said, the 'factuality' of all of
these ancient chronicles is certainly in doubt, especially since they were not
recorded for our edification until almost four hundred years after the fact.
It could also be speculated that -- regardless of which version you favor -- the
ties between Japan and the Korean kingdoms became so close that the later
written formulation of both of their historical chronicles could certainly have
borrowed from each other's oral traditions -- simply by the nature of oral
histories, if not by duplicitous design.
It is taken for granted that much of these histories would have been 'edited' in
some ways by the Emperors -- not only those who commissioned their writing, but
also in the interim hundreds of years of telling and reformulating them orally.
Indeed, had writting of any kind been prevalent at the time, it would have been
much more difficult to transform the Emperor Chiuai from a lord in Korea and
transplant him as a Japanese Emperor who didn't believe that Korea existed. If
that, in fact was the case, and I certainly have no way of knowing. For my many
Japanese friends, it may be an unthinkable theory, but I must admit that for me
it is just interesting food for thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More Sources: Mr. Bob Otis has kindly written me to point to another and more
recent source of information on this topic. In fact, this source is so rich,
that I'm just going to point you there and not pretend that I personally have
anything further to add to historical scholarship -- or speculation or
argumentation -- in this area.
Dr. Wontack Hong published "Peakche of Korea and the Origin of Yamato Japan" in
1994. You can order or find it on the web at
http://iias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/paekche/eng/paekch_e.html. It expands on the idea
of Paekche Koreans taking over early imperial rule in Yamato in the third
century A.D.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Randy Johnson
WAG the FINGER
> >
> >>
> >> Just about nobody in Japan knows anything about what was there before 2000
> >> years ago. Even college professors.
This is weird. On the news was a report of Japanese archaeologists
finding an Egyptian tomb 1000's of years old.
Are you saying that Japanese people conduct digs in far away lands, but
not their native islands?
Robato Yao
>
>> Actually, not exactly:
>>
>> Malays
>>
>> Eskimos,
>>
>> Pre-Han people from China and Mongolia long before the two existed...
>>
>> Siberian Natives (go into some villages in the Russian Far East, you will
>> see lots of Japanese looking
>> people.
>>
>> The Korean invasion was 10,000 years later or more.
>>
>> Just about nobody in Japan knows anything about what was there before 2000
>> years ago. Even college
>> professors.
>>
>> So, Western experts give a better version.
>>
>> *** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
>
>by malay
>is meant that people
>that started in malay and
These peoples did not start in Malaysia, and by now, the mainstream
acceptance of the homeland of the Austronesians (Malayo-Polynesian)
peoples are in Taiwan or north of Taiwan.
The earliest waves of these people could have come to the Ryukus and
Japan even before they came to the Philippines and Indonesia or even
Malaysia.
>populated
>indonesia
>phillipines
>okinawa
>ruyikie island
>and japan
>coming after the ainu
>but before the
>koreans ironage
>paechans
>
Rgds,
Chris
Jason Lawrence Stauff
> > In <36911150...@mail.clis.com>, wallycourie <wally...@mail.clis.com> writes:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Just about nobody in Japan knows anything about what was there before 2000
> > >> years ago. Even college professors.
>
> This is weird. On the news was a report of Japanese archaeologists
> finding an Egyptian tomb 1000's of years old.
>
> Are you saying that Japanese people conduct digs in far away lands, but
> not their native islands?
The earliest traces of humans on Japan are found at over 30,000 years ago. Of coarse,
Japan was still connected to East Asia at this time. The oldest pottery ever found is
from the Jomon period of Japan and is over 10,000 years old. So, it looks like Japan
knows a lot about its history.
Read about it yourself in Stokstad's Art History Volume One, or Renfrew and Brown's
Archaeology: Theories, Methods, and Practice.