Do Japanese Speak Japanese?
gary
shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
of English:
> (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
> noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
> Can you understand my English?
Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
easily to us.
How about the Japanese? Do Japanese know Japanese? This is a sincere
question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
For example, the other day I was talking to a group of Japanese adults
about a nearby empty lot. I wanted to use the word "barbed wire", but
of course I didn't know this word in Japanese. So I tried describing it
like, "toge no tsuita harigane", and I even made a little drawing of a
barbed wire fence. Everyone then knew what I was talking about. But
not one person could tell me the Japanese word for that thing; they just
looked around to each other and repeated, "are, nan to yuu no?"
Finally, someone else came by, overheard our discussion, and informed
everyone that it is called "yuushitessen". She seemed quite pleased
with herself, knowing this word.
One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
they are called "choutsugai". The ones in your eyeglasses are called
"chouban". The optometrist who told me this wasn't sure, and had to
first look the word up in some kind of a trade manual.
Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
pylon
plunger
rivet
buckle (as on a belt)
clipboard
rake (the garden tool)
tongs
spatula
filament (in a light bulb)
snap (the fastener)
appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
washer (the faucet kind)
socket wrench
practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
"trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
By now, Scott and Akira are probably all set to jump on my butt and say
I'm overgeneralizing again. But I'm not. I've not yet concluded that
many Japanese are unfamiliar with the names of everyday objects. I'm
putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
Won't you ask around for me? Just point to the rivet in your jeans, the
hinge in your glasses, the buckle on your belt, the exhaust pipe on your
car, and ask some Japanese friends, "kore, nihongo de nan to yuu no?"
Share your results.
--gary
shuji matsuda
Posted and emailed.
In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
<gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
Kazuhiro Ishii
gary wrote in message <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>...
>
>Is this ignorance typical of
>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
「ignorance」というか、聞けばなんでも答えてもらって当然といった感じの
そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
「またはじまったよ」
「どうする? 教えてやろうか?」
みたいなやつですね。
--
石井一弘
Jason Cormier
shuji matsuda <smat...@med.keio.ac.jp> wrote in message
news:smatsuda-050...@p208-1.rcn.med.keio.ac.jp...
> DO NOT crosspost to sci.lang.japan with your crap.
As opposed to your crap that we are forced to experience here?
Michael Cash
matsuda) wrote:
Seems like a perfectly valid place for his crap....why would that
topic not belong there? Japanese vocabulary is not considered
"on-topic" in sci.lang.japan? Or you just don't like a post which
casts Japan in a negative light among the little collection of
foreigners there who tend to be avid Japanophiles?
Just asking.......
>DO NOT crosspost to sci.lang.japan with your crap.
>
>:putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
>:Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
Michael Cash
<nol...@writeme.com> wrote:
>
>gary wrote in message <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>...
>>
>>Is this ignorance typical of
>>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
>
>
>
>「ignorance」というか、聞けばなんでも答えてもらって当然といった感じの
>そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
I hope you don't do like many native speakers of English do. That is:
to confuse the meanings of "ignorant" and "stupid"
There is no shame in being ignorant. Being ignorant only means you
don't know something.
Being stupid means you don't know...and can't learn.
Michael Cash
wrote:
Or I like to say.....
Stupid is forever
Ignorance can be fixed
Professor Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot Correspondence School
Philosophy Department
The Wrights
>
> shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
> of English:
> > (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
> > noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
>
> Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
> > Can you understand my English?
>
> Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
> the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV.
Are you sure you didn't learn this word from the label of your medicine?
Sean Holland
>
> gary wrote:
> > Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> > English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> > it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
> > the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV.
>
> Are you sure you didn't learn this word from the label of your medicine?
That deserves TWO zabuton!
J i r o D o k e h
many Japanese may be ignorant about certain words like the ones
you mentions, which are specific nouns of parts of things.
As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
that.
As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
From the fact that Enlish is more vocabulary oriented, you may
learn words like "lithium" naturally, but Japanese don't learn
that naturally.
Another thing which made me believe English is more vocabulary
oriented is from the instructions or manuals. For example,
an English setup manual may have a lot of words. It may say
"First, put part A on top of part B. Screw the two pieces
together with bolt and nut C..." In a Japanese manual, all
these will probably be done using a figure or a setup diagram.
Same thing for maps. When some of my American friends give
directions, they write the directions: "Go north for 2 miles
on 3rd street. Take a left on the next light. Go up 4 blocks..."
Japanese usually draws a map and uses as few words as possible.
Interesting cultural different, I think.
Do you understand what I'm saying. (just kidding :) ).
jiro
In soc.culture.japan gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
: English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
: it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
: the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
: easily to us.
: putting the question to all of you: Is this ignorance typical of
: Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
: Won't you ask around for me? Just point to the rivet in your jeans, the
: hinge in your glasses, the buckle on your belt, the exhaust pipe on your
: car, and ask some Japanese friends, "kore, nihongo de nan to yuu no?"
: Share your results.
: --gary
--
Jiro Dokeh
Georgia Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt2527a/
Kenji Adzuma
<gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> English speakers know English.
OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in English?
--
Kenji Adzuma
neko...@my-deja.com
>Or you just don't like a post which casts Japan in a negative light
>among the little collection of foreigners there who tend to be avid
>Japanophiles?
As far as I know, they don't like a post which casts Japan in a
negative light. But strange thing is that they seem to like a post
which casts "gaijin" in a negative light.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
Snail?
Jani Patokallio
> As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
> than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
> Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
> turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
> such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
> Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
> that.
> As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
> might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
> As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
I think that there are a number of separate issues here.
Japanese contains three distinct types of vocabulary: the original
Japanese yamatokotoba, which form whole words and cannot be decomposed into
parts; Chinese compound words, whose meaning can (in theory) be derived
from their kanji; and gairaigo imported wholesale from other languages,
these days usually English.
Now, all the words Gary noted in his posting are relatively new concepts,
for which there cannot have been any yamatokotoba. Belt buckles, car trunks,
barbed wire, door hinges, etc simply did not exist in Japan even 1000 years
ago. When these Western items entered Japan some 100 years ago, new
words for them had to be invented somehow. An educated engineer might
conjure up a fancy Chinese compound like "yuushitessen" for barbed wire,
most people who deal with it on a daily basis would probably know and use
the import "baabu waia", but for others it would remain "toge no tsuita
harigane" unless an actual need developed to develop a shorter way of
referring to it.
Viewed from this point, Japanese is not particularly odd. At one extreme,
China has kept its languages very "pure" by deriving new meaning-based
compounds for almost all new concept. At the other extreme, English
prefers to create its new words by either synthesizing them from
Greek and Latin (eg. television, vocabulary, synthesis) or reassigning
additional meanings to existing words (eg. computer, network, protocol).
Also, the huge amount of words in English is largely due to the fact that
in addition to its Old English base (the equivalent of yamatokotoba)
English has imported amazing amounts of vocabulary mainly from various
Germanic and Romance languages, the end result being that for a given
concept there are often a number of more or less synonymous words which just
happen to be imported from different languages.
Cheers,
-j.
Michael Cash
wrote:
>gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
>news:37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp...
>>
>> shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
>> of English:
>> > (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
>> > noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
>snip.....
>
>I suppose it all depends on whether or not your Japanese friends have ever
>had the need to use such words in their native tongue. For example if your
>were a thin guy and never suffered from a post-enkai large stomach condition
>then you'd probably never have to use the word 'buckle'. Being large myself
>and forever in need of loosening my belt after a particularly extreme enkai,
>then of course the word buckle is of interest to me. As are retailers of
>long belts.
>
>You could debate until the cows come home whether or not buckle should be
>part of your personal lexicon. I suspect that the argument is moot. I
>personally believe 'rotary wankel engine should be part of everyone's
>vocabulary - of course I especially believe this to be so after a
>particularly extreme enkai.....
>
>jonathan
In Japan I might buy that argument when it comes to "barbed
wire"....but to include such articles as belt buckles???? Somehow I
think I find that more offensive than Gary pointing out that some
people don't know those words.
>
>
Michael Cash
wrote:
>J i r o D o k e h wrote:
>> As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
>> than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
>> Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
>> turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
>> such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
>> Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
>> that.
>> As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
>> might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
>> As you know, Japanese uses A LOT of foreign words as it is.
>
I used to challenge my Japanese friends to play a variant on
"Pictionary" or "Charades" that I came up.
In my game, you must describe an item using *NO* on-yomi or gairaigo.
The other's try to guess the word.
When challenged to describe "jidouhanbaiki" or "densha" for
example.....nobody that I asked could do it.
Kenji Adzuma
Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that I
used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
means insect. Oh well, never mind.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Kenji Adzuma
> One other time, the hinge on a door was loose, so I tightened it back up
> with a screwdriver. Afterwards, I told someone that I had fixed the
> door. I didn't know what a hinge is called in Japanese, so I pointed to
> it and asked. Again, I was met with silence. After asking around to
> some more people, I discovered not one Japanese person knew what it is
> called. Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
> they are called "choutsugai".
Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
> Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
> uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>
> pylon
"(ookina) mon" isn't it?
> plunger
This one is somehow called "pisuton" (piston) in Japanese.
> rivet
"ribetto" or "tome kanagu"
> buckle (as on a belt)
no idea.
> clipboard
"keiji ban" (display board). Not exact, but close enough.
> rake (the garden tool)
Well, people use a "take bouki" (broom made of bundled bamboo twigs) to
gather fallen leaves; they don't use a rake. If they saw a rake, I
imagine they would call it like "(take de dekita) kumade."
> tongs
"(monotori) basami" (scissors for picking up things)
> spatula
"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
> filament (in a light bulb)
"firamento"
> snap (the fastener)
"tomegane"
> appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
no idea
> washer (the faucet kind)
"wasshaa"
> socket wrench
"soketto renchi" I guess
> practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
> I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
> "trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
"bon netto" originated from, though.
--
Kenji Adzuma
Prince Richard Kaminski
Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
> In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
> Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
> > news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
> > > > English speakers know English.
> > >
> > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
English?
> >
> > Snail?
>
> Right. But how did you know?
From that song about den den mushi, katatsumuri, etc. Katatsumuri being
another word for the same thing.
The reason I asked that question was that I
> used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
> means insect. Oh well, never mind.
I know what you mean. There are words like that in English too, although I
can't think of any at the moment. I'm thinking of things like the name of a
flower which sounds like an animal, and vice versa perhaps.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message news:adzuma-
> I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
> "bon netto" originated from, though.
From the British English word "bonnet", which means the lid that covers the
engine compartment of your car. A hood over here is something you wear over
your head, like a monk might.
Fabian
>I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
>"bon netto" originated from, though.
Well, when I find myself having to translate American into English, "hood"
becomes "bonnet".
Which brings us to an interesting question.
Of the loan words that are from the English language, there are some which
are recognisably from one specific English-speaking country. But which
country has Japanese borrowed more words from?
---
Fabian
Rule One: Question the unquestionable,
ask the unaskable, eff the ineffable,
think the unthinkable, and screw the inscrutable.
BDunn
> uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>
> plunger
It seems to me like these two things, anyway, would be pretty new to the
Japanese public.
I'm not trying to troll. I mean, how many people still live with sliding
doors in their houses?
My wife didn't know the word for 'hinge,' but she just explained to me what
it was. And
(I'm not sure on this one), but with Japanese style toilets, were plungers
ever needed? How
long have western style toilets been commonplace in Japan? I asked my wife
this one, too
(it was the last one I asked) and she started to say something like "pon--"
but didn't finish
for fear of looking stupid. Try asking someone what a rabu hoteru is in
English. You may
get "Love Hotel," but that doesn't really have a defined meaning in English.
If they don't know
a word, it's probably because they don't use the word or they don't have a
need for the word.
> appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
But has no one had their appendix out in Japan? I think this one is
'mouchou' ('mouchou o toru').
And I don't even know what vestigial is in English, let alone another
language.
And I was just curious, so I asked my Japanese wife if she knew 'tonsils.'
She said 'nodochinko'
right off the bat, and after I laughed I coaxed the real word, 'hentou,' out
of her. I guess it's like
people using 'charinko' instead of 'jitensha.' Or maybe it's a generation
thing, since we're in our 20's.
I think this is going in another direction, away from "Japanese people don't
know these words..."
to a difference in language use and why they would use the words. For
example, one could say,
"chin shitoite" for "warm this up," since the denshi range goes "chin" when
it's finished (but saying,
"ding this, will ya'" in English would be a bit strange). And "Poi Sute
Kinshi" (where "poi" is the sound
of throwing trash) on the side of the road (have you ever seen a sign in
English that said, "No Plooping"?).
I think this is a good topic for the usage of Japanese and "why don't they
know/use these kinds of words?"
Japanese use a lot of onomotopiea that has no direct translation, except for
a lengthy explanation of the
concept. That doesn't mean that people who speak English are long winded or
can't express their ideas well.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
BDunn
>
> >>"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
>
Didn't anybody bother to look it up in a dictionary? It's 'hera,' and even
my wife uses that word.
Brian Dunn
>
So is 'chuusui' or 'mouchou' used? Or are they both used? I showed the
kanji for chuusui to a Japanese friend and he didn't recognize it until I
told him what it was. My dictionary gives:
chuusui:
the vermiform appendix
chuusuien - appendicitis
chuusuiensetsujo - appendectomy
mouchou:
the cecum, the blind gut, the (vermiform) appendix
mouchou o toru - have one's appendix removed (out)
mouchouen - appendicitis; cecitis
mouchouen no shujutsu - an operation for appendicitis;
an appendectomy.
Brian Dunn
bd...@netmagic.net
mr sumo
shuji matsuda
:>「ignorance」というか、聞けばなんでも答えてもらって当然といった感じの
:>そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
:
:I hope you don't do like many native speakers of English do. That is:
:to confuse the meanings of "ignorant" and "stupid"
:
:There is no shame in being ignorant. Being ignorant only means you
:don't know something.
:
:Being stupid means you don't know...and can't learn.
ここは日本語だとignoranceなどと言わずに『間抜け』と書くところなんです。
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
gary
shuji
--gary
shuji matsuda wrote:
>
> DO NOT crosspost to sci.lang.japan with your crap.
>
> Posted and emailed.
>
> In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
> <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> : shuji matsuda expresses his amazement at Scott's knowledge
> :of English:
> :> (Secretly I am glad you know what lithium means. It is not a common
> :> noun in Japanese. Is it a comon word in English?)
> :
> : Masayuki YOSHIDA routinely questions native English speakers:
> :> Can you understand my English?
> :
> :Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
> :English speakers know English. We don't have to strain to understand
> :it. And words like "lithium", we just learn these words naturally in
> :the course of reading books and magazines, and watching TV. Comes quite
> :easily to us.
> :
> :How about the Japanese? Do Japanese know Japanese? This is a sincere
> :question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
> :seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
[snip]
Jim Breen
>>Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>>> In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>>> Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
>>English?
>>> >
>>> > Snail?
>>> Right. But how did you know?
>>From that song about den den mushi, katatsumuri, etc. Katatsumuri being
>>another word for the same thing.
Dendenmushi is news to me. I see in my big Kodansha that it's
associated with the normal katatsumuri kanji. Here is the entry:
蝸牛 [でんでんむし] ★ 《「出よ出よ」に由来》→カタツムリの俗称。
This raises another question: what on earth is 「出よ出よ」?
This is the only entry in the Kodansha where this word appears.
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Jim Breen
>>Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
Isn't "kaname" the metal rod down the middle of the hinge?
Gerald B Mathias
: In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
: Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
: > news:adzuma-0506...@3tsh3-mac.rockefeller.edu...
: > > In article <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>, gary
: > > <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: > >
: > > > Gentlemen, this may come as a shock to both of you, but we native
: > > > English speakers know English.
: > >
: > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in English?
: >
: > Snail?
: Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that I
: used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
: means insect. Oh well, never mind.
Well, then there is the "pure insect," mamushi.
Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
Bart
Prince Richard Kaminski
> Boy, a personal e-mail from shuji matsuda.
Lucky bitch!
Masayuki YOSHIDA
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>
>gary wrote:
>(snip)
>
>有刺鉄線とか蝶番とかいった言葉を知らないなんて
>いったいどういう日本人と付き合ってるんですか？？(・-・)
知らない日本人ってけっこういますよ。だって、「有刺鉄線」な
んて、張ってある土地ってもうないですよ。あれ、触れると傷
つくというので、今はもう使わないんですよね。
また蝶番（ちょうつがい）も大工見習いじゃないんだから、知ら
ない人がいてもおかしくないですよ。蝶番は、形が、「てふてふ」
がペアになっているのに似ているから、その名がついているん
ですが、こういう昔はよく使い、今はもう使わないというか、日常
生活に必要でない言葉はどんどん忘れさられていくわけで、
驚くことなんかないんです。その代わり、若い人なんかは、どん
どん新しい言葉を経験していったり、作ったりするわけです。
>「ばらん」て言葉知らない人は
>近年てれびのクイズなんかで使
>い倒されるまでは結構多かった
>みたいだけど。
>
>#あと「ばれん」は小学校のころはしってたけど忘れてる
>#なんて人が多い。
さすが東大。暗記力が抜群ですね（笑）。
そこで、myawさんにクイズ。
１．高い塀なんかに矢が並んだような泥棒よけがありますが、
あれを何と呼ぶでしょうか？
２．建物なんかの外壁と溝との間の狭い部分を何と呼びますか。
３．「間」（あいだ・はざま）のことを大和ことば・雅語で何といいますか。
４．二十歳のことは「はたち」、では「四十歳」は？
５．「他人のお母さん」を文語で何ていいますか。
６．妻の父（舅）は？
７．トイレで使う紙を何といいますか。トイレット・ペーバーはぺけです。
よしだまさゆき
Francois JACQUES
> question, because I've encountered many instances when Japanese have
> seemed ignorant of Japanese words.
Okay, I know it is sunday ! :)
Gary, you gave examples of very precise words, most of them which have
been put in the japanese vocabulary recently (less than a 100 years i
think).
I understand what you mean, and I think that this is only a question of
history. I mean, cars and bikes are not a japanese invention. They where
imported so that is why almost all the names parts are english : mafula,
toranku, bureki, geaa,etc. But I know that you know !!
It is the same for construction, architecture and many fields that where
different in japan.
Do you know that the word zubon comes from the french word Jupon which
is a little under dress for women ?
I don(t think that it means japanses people don't speak japanese. It is
the same everywhere. It is only a question of educational level. You go
ine the japanese countryside and find people who cannot say what is a
barbe wire. I think that is almost normal. Ask all the yankee, I am sure
they now the word.
Point out many things to some french young people, they won't be able to
tell you the words for it, and I think it is the same with english
native tongue people !
Masayuki YOSHIDA
>On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:48:07 +0900, "Kazuhiro Ishii"
><nol...@writeme.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>gary wrote in message <37591BD9...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>...
>>>
>>>Is this ignorance typical of
>>>Japanese all over Japan, or only my small circle down here in Kyushu?
>>
>>
>>
>>そのあつかましい態度が原因でしょう。
>
>I hope you don't do like many native speakers of English do. That is:
>to confuse the meanings of "ignorant" and "stupid"
>
>There is no shame in being ignorant. Being ignorant only means you
>don't know something.
>
>Being stupid means you don't know...and can't learn.
そういえば、「無知の涙」というのが、ありましたね。
僕ら、学校では「無知」は「無恥」に通じるって、教えられました。
特殊な専門用語やスラングは別に知らなくてもいいんですけど、
やはり当然知っているべきことを知らないって、恥だと思います
ねえ。キャッシュさんとは、違った道徳規準での見方でしょうけど。
よしだまさゆき
>>「またはじまったよ」
>>「どうする? 教えてやろうか?」
>>みたいなやつですね。
>>
>>--
>>石井一弘
>>
>>
>
Takeyasu Wakabayashi
>
> Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
>
I think "tyou tugai"(lit. "butterfly pair") is correct rendering
of "hinge".
>
> > appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
> no idea
"Tyuu sui"(for vermiform appendix, "tyuu" meaning "worm", "sui" meaning
"suspended").
The word "mou tyou"(for caecum) is a direct translation of German
"Blinddarm"(blind intestine).
--
Takeyasu Wakabayashi,
Faculty of Economics, Toyama University
twa...@eco.toyama-u.ac.jp
CdotBlack
Jani Patokallio <jpat...@iki.fi> wrote:
> J i r o D o k e h wrote:
> > As I was learning English, I noticed English has far more vocabulary
> > than Japanese. There seems to be a word for almost everything.
> > Sometimes, I can't find an equivalent word in Japanese. They just
> > turn out to be English or foreign words said in a Japanese way,
> > such as TEREBI, RAJIO, CONPYU-TA-, etc. I've heard of some technical
> > Japanese words for these, but a typical Japanese would not know
> > that.
> > As for words like "buckle", "rivet", "hood", "trunk", I think most Japanese
> > might just use "BAKKURU", "RIBETTO", "HU-DO", "TORANKU" for them.
Refer to the original post. He mentioned people who don't know words like
'hood' and 'trunk'. There _are_ words for these literally everyday items
but he's saying people don't know these words.
>
> Now, all the words Gary noted in his posting are relatively new concepts,
> for which there cannot have been any yamatokotoba. Belt buckles, car trunks,
> barbed wire, door hinges, etc simply did not exist in Japan even 1000 years
> ago. When these Western items entered Japan some 100 years ago, new
> words for them had to be invented somehow. An educated engineer might
> conjure up a fancy Chinese compound like "yuushitessen" for barbed wire,
> most people who deal with it on a daily basis would probably know and use
> the import "baabu waia", but for others it would remain "toge no tsuita
> harigane" unless an actual need developed to develop a shorter way of
> referring to it.
And when did car trunks and and barbed wire enter the English language?
'Trunk', 'wire', 'barb' and 'hinge' are all old, simple concepts which
would be represented in the language of any culture advanced enough to
have furniture. They were taken and applied to a new use.
Even small children know these words. Buckles may have been a bit of a
novelty in the Meiji era, but now Japan is full of buckles - buckles that
break, buckles with interesting designs, buckles that children have to
learn how to use. Why would anybody not know the word?
>
> Viewed from this point, Japanese is not particularly odd. At one extreme,
> China has kept its languages very "pure" by deriving new meaning-based
> compounds for almost all new concept. At the other extreme, English
> prefers to create its new words by either synthesizing them from
> Greek and Latin (eg. television, vocabulary, synthesis)
How is this different from what the Chinese do? (Genuine question.)
> or reassigning
> additional meanings to existing words (eg. computer, network, protocol).
They're not really additional meanings. They're the same (or an almost
identical) meaning in a new context.
> Also, the huge amount of words in English is largely due to the fact that
> in addition to its Old English base (the equivalent of yamatokotoba)
> English has imported amazing amounts of vocabulary mainly from various
> Germanic and Romance languages,
As has Japanese, from Chinese languages.
> the end result being that for a given
> concept there are often a number of more or less synonymous words which just
> happen to be imported from different languages.
Ditto Japanese.
Anyway, the issue isn't whether there are or aren't words for certain
items in Japanese but whether or not people know them. I don't think it's
as bad as Gary made out but that may be because the Japanese people I know
are sophisticated urbanites <g>.
--
Harry
"Once the ball is at Overmars's feet, it's like a piece of string."
Commentator, Radio 5 Live (via Private Eye)
Jim Breen
>>For example, the other day I was talking to a group of Japanese adults
>>about a nearby empty lot. I wanted to use the word "barbed wire", but
>>of course I didn't know this word in Japanese. So I tried describing it
>>like, "toge no tsuita harigane", and I even made a little drawing of a
>>barbed wire fence. Everyone then knew what I was talking about. But
>>not one person could tell me the Japanese word for that thing; they just
>>looked around to each other and repeated, "are, nan to yuu no?"
>>Finally, someone else came by, overheard our discussion, and informed
>>everyone that it is called "yuushitessen". She seemed quite pleased
>>with herself, knowing this word.
This doen't surprise me at all, as barbed wire is a pretty culturally
specific thing. If you are not in a society where farm animals roam in
fields, then you are unlikely to be in contact with barbed wire. I suspect
that if the Japanese adults were from rural Hokkaidou, they probably would
have known the word.
>>.... Sometime later when I was at the hardware store, I was told
>>they are called "choutsugai". The ones in your eyeglasses are called
>>"chouban". The optometrist who told me this wasn't sure, and had to
>>first look the word up in some kind of a trade manual.
Er, isn't "chouban" just another reading of the kanji in "choutsugai"?
>>Here are some other items whose Japanese names I've had trouble
>>uncovering when I've asked Japanese people:
>>pylon
鉄塔/てっとう
>>plunger
>>rivet
リベット
>>buckle (as on a belt)
締め金/しめがね or バックル
>>clipboard
>>rake (the garden tool)
レーキ or 熊手/くまで or 雁爪/がんづめ|がんずめ
>>tongs
トング or 火箸/ひばし
>>spatula
箆/へら, but more likely スパーテル|スパチュラ
>>filament (in a light bulb)
フィラメント
>>snap (the fastener)
>>appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
虫垂/ちゅうすい
>>washer (the faucet kind)
ウォッシャー|ワッシャー - the metal version is 座金/ざがね
>>socket wrench
>>practically any auto part: muffler, radiator, axle, spark plug, et al.
>>I've met some Japanese who don't even know the words for "hood" and
>>"trunk"; they say "mae" ("front") and "ushiro" ("back").
--
Jim Breen
>>> rivet
>>"ribetto" or "tome kanagu"
Do you have the kanji for "tome kanagu"? I can't identify them
positively enough.
>>> spatula
>>"(yaku you) saji" (spoon to measure drug)
Is that really what a spatula is??
>>I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
>>"bon netto" originated from, though.
British English. We call the "car bonnets" too.
Lei Tanabe
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7jciek$l...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>Kenji Adzuma (adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu) wrote:
>: In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>: Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>: > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
English?
>: >
>: > Snail?
>
>: Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that
I
>: used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
>: means insect. Oh well, never mind.
>
>Well, then there is the "pure insect," mamushi.
>
>Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
How's "tamushi", "midori-mushi", "sanada-mushi", "hara no mushi"...?
I think they are "bugs".
Anyway, in the old usage, "虫 mushi" refers to all animals except human,
other mammals, birds and fish.
"蝸牛 katatsumuri (dendenmushi)" was "出出虫 dedemushi" and "蝮 mamushi" was
originally written "真虫 mamushi".
There are quite a few phrases including "mushi", e.g. "mushi ga ii", "mushi
ga shiraseru", "mushi ga tsuku", etc.
Lei
Lei Tanabe
Kenji Adzuma wrote in message ...
>
>Well, a door hinge is usually called "kaname."
"kaname" is the pivot of the fan (扇 oogi).
I think it also refers to a pin part of the hinge.
Lei
Scott Reynolds
> In Japan I might buy that argument when it comes to "barbed
> wire"....but to include such articles as belt buckles???? Somehow I
> think I find that more offensive than Gary pointing out that some
> people don't know those words.
I wonder if gary was requiring people to reply without using katakana
words. For example, I'd always thought that the Japanese word for a belt
buckle was "bakkuru." These posts sparked my interest, and I went and
looked up buckle in a dictionary to see if there were some other
equivalents. I found "shimegane." But it seems to me that this could
refer to just about any type of metal fastener, not only buckles.
This might be what is happening with some of the other words on gary's
list as well, such as "washer." Perhaps either he or the people he asked
were looking for "Japanese" words for those things and were thus
excluding their common names, which are katakana words. Then again,
maybe gary has annoyed his acquaintances with excessive questions to the
point that they no longer will give him a strait answer, as Ishii-san
suggested. Who knows.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Mike Wright
[...]
> Dendenmushi is news to me. I see in my big Kodansha that it's
> associated with the normal katatsumuri kanji. Here is the entry:
>
> 蝸牛 [でんでんむし] ★ 《「出よ出よ」に由来》→カタツムリの俗称。
"Katatsumuri" looks like a nice long word that ought to have recognizable
components, but I can't find any way to break it down--no "katatsu", no
"tsumuri/tsumuru" in my dictionaries. Any info on where it came from? The kanji
is from the Chinese word, and the "ushi" obviously refers to the snail's
"horns", but it doesn't seem to relate to the kunyomi in any regular way.
> This raises another question: what on earth is 「出よ出よ」?
I believe that it is a line from the Calypso song, _The Banana Boat Song_, made
famous in the late '50s by Harry Belafonte. Obviously the innocuous snail is
being contrasted with the "deadly black tarantula".
BTW, my Sanseido's J-E dictionary has both "katatsumuri" and "denden" in
hiragana, with "mushi" in kanji.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Scott Reynolds
> Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that I
> used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
> means insect. Oh well, never mind.
That's like the English "crayfish," which is not a fish at all.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Scott Reynolds
> > appendix (the vestigial organ) [or even "vestigial", for that matter]
>
> no idea
You're putting us on! Even I know that this is called "mouchou."
> I think the "hood" is called "bon netto" in Japanese. I don't know where
> "bon netto" originated from, though.
It comes from "bonnet," which is British usage. BTW, lots of Japanese
automotive terms reflect British, rather than American, usage. "Uinkaa"
for "turn signal" is another one that comes to mind.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Michael Cash
wrote:
>
>Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7jciek$l...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>>Kenji Adzuma (adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <jKf63.723$pl3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net>, "Prince Richard
>>: Kaminski" <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>: > Kenji Adzuma <adz...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote in message
>
>>: > > OK, fair enough, but try this. What do call "den den mushi" in
>English?
>>: >
>>: > Snail?
>>
>>: Right. But how did you know? The reason I asked that question was that
>I
>>: used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
>>: means insect. Oh well, never mind.
>>
>>Well, then there is the "pure insect," mamushi.
>>
>>Maybe "mushi" comes a little closer to "vermin/varmint" than "insect."
>
>
>How's "tamushi", "midori-mushi", "sanada-mushi", "hara no mushi"...?
>I think they are "bugs".
>
>Anyway, in the old usage, "虫 mushi" refers to all animals except human,
>other mammals, birds and fish.
>"蝸牛 katatsumuri (dendenmushi)" was "出出虫 dedemushi" and "蝮 mamushi" was
>originally written "真虫 mamushi".
>
>There are quite a few phrases including "mushi", e.g. "mushi ga ii", "mushi
>ga shiraseru", "mushi ga tsuku", etc.
>
>Lei
And let's not forget the ojama-mushi and the shingou-mushi....two
common pests throughout Japan.
>
>
>
Takeyasu Wakabayashi
>
> So is 'chuusui' or 'mouchou' used? Or are they both used? I showed the
> kanji for chuusui to a Japanese friend and he didn't recognize it until I
> told him what it was. My dictionary gives:
>
`Tyuusui' is somewhat formal and rigorous term used in diagnoses
by physicians. `Moutyou' is used in casual conversations.
Consult a medical dictionary for difference between `appendix' and `caecum'.
I'm not physician, either.
Fabian
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote in message ...
>> The reason I asked that question was that I
>> used to think "den den mushi" must be some kind of insect because "mushi"
>> means insect. Oh well, never mind.
>
>I know what you mean. There are words like that in English too, although I
>can't think of any at the moment. I'm thinking of things like the name of a
>flower which sounds like an animal, and vice versa perhaps.
You mean like Tiger Lilies?
Oh wait, that's one of Rupert T. Bear's friends :)
---
Fabian
Rule One: Question the unquestionable,
ask the unaskable, eff the ineffable,
think the unthinkable, and screw the inscrutable.