Violent towards women...
Cynnyk
Even though I am new to this NG I would like to start a thread.
When I look at Japanese erotica, one of the things I find most striking is
the violence towards women. I wonder why this is. I find it hard to believe
that this is the way Japanese women are treated in real life. I particularly
would like to hear from any Japanese women, what they have to say on the
subject.
Cynnyk
--
I am not suffering from insanity, I am enjoying every minute of it!
Tomoyuki Tanaka
In article <923864489.16903.0...@news.demon.nl>,
Cynnyk <Cyn...@cynnyk.demon.nl> wrote:
>Subject: Re: Violent towards women...
>Hi group,
>
read the FAQ for the NG before you post.
the relevant section is attached below.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
American misconceptions about Japan FAQ
Abstract:
This FAQ file examines common American misconceptions
(false stereotypes) about Japan, which also affect Asian
Americans.
<soc.culture.japan> FAQ files are at
http://welcome.to/SCJ
http://welcome.to/soc.culture.japan
[...]
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
---- (2.7) MYTH: Japan is a sexist country.
(2.7.1) sexism in Japan: the American propaganda
--- Japanese men are sexist.
--- Japanese women are mistreated.
--- Japan is one of the most sexist countries in the world.
(2.7.2) sexism in Japan: the truth
THE TRUTH: sexism in Japan is not much worse than in the USA.
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
---- (2.7.1) sexism in Japan: the American propaganda
One of the most common themes in US media coverage of Japan is
"Japan is a sexist country".
Edwin O. Reischauer has been the biggest contributor to the
"sexist Japan" image in the USA. In his book "The Japanese
Today" (1995) Reischauer emphasizes sexism to portray Japan as
backward and exotic.
"Chapter 17 Women" opens as follows: "The position of women in
Japanese society is one of the major differences between it and
American society and a subject that is likely to raise
indignation in the West. Japanese men are blatantly male
chauvinists and women seem shamefully exploited and suppressed."
in the last 20 years or so while I've paid close attention to
the US media portrayals of Japan, I have rarely seen a
positive coverage in reports relating to the issues of
relationship between the sexes, sexism, marriage and dating
practices, etc.
(it's possible to report positively: about progress
being made in fighting sexism, about the low divorce
rate and the secrets of Japanese marital success, about
characteristic courtship customs, etc.)
on the other hand, I've seen numerous negative reports.
some recent examples:
--- Newsweek, "Take a Hike, Hiroshi", August 10, 1992, (2 pages).
headline: "Japan's War of the Sexes is heating up ---
because Japan's women are fed up. A report from the front".
the caption to a photograph of 4 young Japanese men
reads, "Self-centered, boorish and predictable? Young
men relax in a resort town".
--- TIME, "Fighting Off HANAYOME BUSOKU", March 21, 1988.
headline: "Villagers cope with a shortage of brides by
recruiting overseas"
"... one reason Japanese women head for the cities is
their inferior position in small-town families. Unless
the status of rural women is elevated, ..."
THE TRUTH: recruiting mail order brides from Asia is a
practice that is much more common in the rich western
nations than in Japan. it is unfair that these
magazines draw attention to mail order brides in Japan,
while neglecting the practice (and its problems) in the
USA and other nations.
--- TIME, "Tying the knot, Japanese style", April 17, 1989.
headline: "A wedding can still be a feast of conspicuous
consumption".
a graph entitled "PRICELY PACKAGE --- Typical costs of a
fancy wedding".
a photograph of a couple: she is dressed in a western
wedding dress; he is dressed like a soldier
(very unusual for a Japanese wedding);
caption: "In a mist of dry ice at a bridal palace
in Tokyo, the happy couple descend to greet
their guests"; together they look very silly.
the hidden message is clear: we know Japanese are rich,
but Japanese spend their money in such stupid ways.
THE TRUTH: a typical expensive Japanese wedding costs no more
than a typical expensive American wedding.
if your main source of information on Japan is mainstream
US media (and movies), then you may actually believe what
has been drummed into your head:
--- Japanese men are sexist.
--- Japanese women are mistreated.
--- Japan is one of the most sexist countries in the world.
often Americans start telling me something like, "I know you're
Japanese, and so I understand that you can be a bit sexist, ..."
at which point I stop them, "whaaat? what have I done or said
which indicates that I'm being sexist?"
and they can't cite even a tiny example.
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
---- (2.7.2) sexism in Japan: the truth
THE TRUTH: sexism in Japan is not much worse than in the USA.
I very much doubt how meaningful it is to compare two
cultures with different histories, and say which one is "more
sexist". To look at superficial differences and drawing
conclusions from them is ludicrous. Is the common practice of
male genital mutilation at birth in the USA (circumcision) a
sign of backwardness? Do the current debates over abortion and
prayer in schools indicate that Americans are too backward to
understand the modern concept of separation of church and state?
Moreover, even by purely Western standards, sexism in Japan is
not much worse than in the USA, as indicated by the following.
(1) sexual violence/harassment against women in the USA is much
more frequent/severe, as compared to in Japan. The number of
reported rapes (per 100,000 women, 1987-89) is 118 in the USA
and 5 in Japan ("Human Development Report 1994" by
U.N._Development Programme).
(2) In Japan the wife is usually more dominant than the husband
in a married couple (especially regarding financial matters).
Even Reischauer, who is obsessed with portraying the Japanese as
sexist, admits this.
(3) Female politician DOI Takako was once the head of the Japan
Socialist Party (JSP), and is now the head of the Lower House
(shuu-giin-gichou). Consider that the current head of JSP
(Murayama) is the prime minister of Japan, and that the Japanese
"head of the Lower House" corresponds to the US Speaker of the
House. Conclusion: Japan is much closer to having a female
national political leader than the USA is.
(4) Male vs. female wage disparity. female wages (as % of male
wages, 1990-92): Sweden_90, Norway_87, France_81, Germany_78,
UK_70, Belgium_64, Canada_63, USA_59, Japan_51 ("Human
Development Report 1994", U.N.D.P.).
One factor in The New York Times and others' compulsive
portrayal of Japan as a sexist country is the US backlash
against feminism. About wage disparity (point (4) above), the
USA may have things to learn from the European nations where
gender equality has been more successful. But instead, these
newspapers report "sexist Japan" to give the message of assurance
and conservatism: "Look at how sexist the Japanese are. We've
gone far enough in the feminism movement. In fact, we've
probably gone too far. We must shift our attention from feminism
to more urgent matters, such as the Japanese economic threat."
American compulsion to portray Asian cultures as sexist is also
seen in "The Joy Luck Club", a film filled with racial/ethnic
prejudice against Asia and racially-Asian men.
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
---- (2.8) MYTH: Japanese men are either asexual or sex-hungry monsters.
in the US media (TV and movies) Asian men are usually portrayed
as asexual, unromantic creatures. Alan Hu wrote in a Usenet
article:
Asian men are portrayed as: asexual martial arts
masters, asexual viet cong guerrillas, asexual
servants, and asexual geeks.
this is related to the following myths.
MYTH: "Japs are wimps in bed."
MYTH: "Japs have rice dicks." (tiny penises)
[...]
Stu
Tanaka) wrote:
>read the FAQ for the NG before you post.
You can't possibly be unaware that you DO NOT MAINTAIN THE REAL FAQ.
>the relevant section is attached below.
You seem to have posted your "American Misconceptions" FAQE again. The
original poster IS NOT AMERICAN. Perhaps you should revise it to
"Non-Japanese Misconcetions About Japan".
The original post asked about why Japanese erotica features bondage
etc. Your worthless excerpt DID NOT ADDRESS HIS QUESTION. In case
you're just a cut-and-paste robot, you posted about: how expensive
weddings are (without actually giving numbers), how there are more
reported rapes in America, how the wife in a couple tends to control
financial matters, female political leaders, wage disparity, an
obligatory reference to the New York Times as racist, and nine lines
at the bottom that mention sexual stereotypes, but don't mention
erotica or how women are portrayed in it.
What's wrong with this picture?
Scott Reynolds
>
> In article <923864489.16903.0...@news.demon.nl>,
> Cynnyk <Cyn...@cynnyk.demon.nl> wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Violent towards women...
> >Hi group,
> >
>
> read the FAQ for the NG before you post.
But the scj FAQ does not contain any information on "Violent towards
women," so far as I know.
> the relevant section is attached below.
Oops. You've accidentally appended a section of your own compendium of
"Lies and Distortions Intended to Mislead Persons New to SCJ." I'm sure
you wouldn't want anyone to mistakenly think that your screed is any
sort of FAQ, or that it represents anything more than your own opinions,
so I'm doing you the favor of pointing your error out for you.
BTW, I also removed the irrelevant groups you went and added to the
newsgroups line.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Cynnyk
there was a FAQ. So Tanaka may have had a point after all. If this message
is considered "wrong" in this NG, please tell me so.
Stu is correct. Tanaka did not address my question. Perhaps I should
clarify. I was referring to why women are usually treated so bad in Japanese
erotica. They are tied up, sometimes beaten and worse. I was simply
wondering why a civilized country such as Japan would put such emphasis on
the submission of women in sexuality, or if this a remnant of a previous
era. I can't believe that modern, Japanese women would stand for this
(unless they're into S&M, which is an entirely different discussion).
I hope this will expain what my intention was and still is with my original
post.
Cynnyk
--
I am not suffering from insanity, I am enjoying every minute of it!
Stu <caju...@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:37114076....@news.vt.edu...
> On 11 Apr 1999 22:32:18 GMT, tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki
> Tanaka) wrote:
>
> >read the FAQ for the NG before you post.
>
> You can't possibly be unaware that you DO NOT MAINTAIN THE REAL FAQ.
>
> >the relevant section is attached below.
>
tenj...@my-dejanews.com
"Cynnyk" <Cyn...@cynnyk.demon.nl> wrote:
> Thanks everyone for rallying to my defence. However, I wasn't even aware
> there was a FAQ. So Tanaka may have had a point after all. If this message
> is considered "wrong" in this NG, please tell me so.
>
> Stu is correct. Tanaka did not address my question. Perhaps I should
> clarify. I was referring to why women are usually treated so bad in Japanese
> erotica. They are tied up, sometimes beaten and worse. I was simply
> wondering why a civilized country such as Japan would put such emphasis on
> the submission of women in sexuality, or if this a remnant of a previous
> era. I can't believe that modern, Japanese women would stand for this
> (unless they're into S&M, which is an entirely different discussion).
>
> I hope this will expain what my intention was and still is with my original
> post.
>
Cynnyk--
one of the important things you need to know is that Japan is not a high
communication society. Especially in terms of men and women getting to know
eachother. Even by age 4-5 in kindergartens girls and boys are segregating
themselves from eachother, and this continues well into the univeristy years.
Women are taught to be shy and demure, and not to make their feelings well
known, except to all but the most trusted friends and family. So men (or
BOYS, to be more accurate) get their thrills from reading the racy comics and
adult videos where women are just asking for it. To some extent it may be the
neural hard-wiring that women are more interested in someone's mind while big
tits and a nice face are the most important aspect for male teenagers, but in
Japan these things aren't talked about openly--to the detriment of all. There
is no "Dr. Ruth" in Japan, by a long shot. At any rate asking our good buddy
Tomoyuki is the last place you want to go to find the truth....somehow
somewhere all problems in Japan just don't exist or must be the fault of all
the white people, who by the way are all racist pigs and are to blame for the
bad weather everyone will have in Japan.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Cynnyk
expected to find THE truth, I just wanted to start a discussion in which I
hoped to gain some insight in an aspect of Japanese society that I find very
puzzling. I am grateful for the light you have shed on the matter.
Cynnyk
--
I am not suffering from insanity, I am enjoying every minute of it!
<tenj...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7et7fu$unh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
Don Kirkman
<7er7ti$1ng$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>:
>In article <923864489.16903.0...@news.demon.nl>,
>Cynnyk <Cyn...@cynnyk.demon.nl> wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Violent towards women...
>>Hi group,
>read the FAQ for the NG before you post.
Against all reasonable expectations, this is actually good advice.
>the relevant section is attached below.
The catch is that this poster has nothing to do with the FAQ for the NG;
he posts an individual point of view, rejects or ignores suggested
corrections or improvements, and doesn't know enough about the US (or
Japan, apparently) to provide newcomers with helpful information they
can depend on. The canonical FAQ can be found at the sites listed by
Shimpei Yamashita, the maintainer:
The soc.culture.japan FAQ file is posted on the 4th of each month.
It is cross-posted in three parts to the following groups:
news.answers
soc.answers
soc.culture.japan
soc.culture.japan.moderated
with the subject lines:
Subject: soc.culture.japan FAQ [Monthly Posting] [1/3]
Subject: soc.culture.japan FAQ [Monthly Posting] [2/3]
Subject: soc.culture.japan FAQ [Monthly Posting] [3/3]
This file, and all other FAQs posted to news.answers can be retrieved
by anonymous FTP using the following URLs:
<URL:ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/soc.culture.japan/>
<URL:ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-hierarchy/soc/culture/japan/faq/>
The FAQ is also available via WWW at:
<URL:http://www.submm.caltech.edu/~shimpei/>
--
Don
gary
tenj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> (Japanese) Women are taught to be shy and demure,
I don't think there's any formal training involved. Usually it's just
plain old humility and self-effacement, common in both Japanese men and
women. Foreigners are often misled into thinking that if you're not
self-assertive, then you must be shy and demure.
> and not to make their feelings well
> known, except to all but the most trusted friends and family. So men (or
> BOYS, to be more accurate) get their thrills from reading the racy comics
And some Japanese women, to be even more accurate. See the "Rape
Videos" thread from a few months ago for an brief discussion of "Ladies'
Comics", lewd sex manga that are read by Japanese women.
--gary
Cynnyk
Cynnyk
--
I am not suffering from insanity, I am enjoying every minute of it!
Don Kirkman <new...@abac.com> wrote in message
news:3713776a...@news.newsguy.com...
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote in article
> <7er7ti$1ng$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>:
>
> >In article <923864489.16903.0...@news.demon.nl>,
> >Cynnyk <Cyn...@cynnyk.demon.nl> wrote:
> >>Subject: Re: Violent towards women...
> >>Hi group,
>
> >read the FAQ for the NG before you post.
>
> Against all reasonable expectations, this is actually good advice.
>
> >the relevant section is attached below.
>
rob...@bigfoot.com
gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>
> tenj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > (Japanese) Women are taught to be shy and demure,
>
> I don't think there's any formal training involved. Usually it's just
> plain old humility and self-effacement, common in both Japanese men and
> women. Foreigners are often misled into thinking that if you're not
> self-assertive, then you must be shy and demure.
>
*****There is some truth in that; the real clincher is viewing the women both
in private situations, when their more likely to make their feelings known,
and public, where they appear to submit more tamely. But I never said there
was any formal training involved; in fact it's cultural and learned
unconsciously.
> > and not to make their feelings well
> > known, except to all but the most trusted friends and family. So men (or
> > BOYS, to be more accurate) get their thrills from reading the racy comics
>
> And some Japanese women, to be even more accurate. See the "Rape
> Videos" thread from a few months ago for an brief discussion of "Ladies'
> Comics", lewd sex manga that are read by Japanese women.
>
*****I missed the thread, but I admit that I have been a liitle surprised to
find quite explicit comics in women's magazines as well. But nothing
advocationg rape, violence, or vicious humiliation, so I'm not sure where
you're going with this.
Prince Richard Kaminski
<rob...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:7evp42$53u$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>*****I missed the thread, but I admit that I have been a liitle
surprised to
>find quite explicit comics in women's magazines as well. But nothing
>advocationg rape, violence, or vicious humiliation,
There was also a thread in soc.culture.japan.moderated a few months ago
which discussed precisely the existence of women's comics containing
rape fantasies. Do a Deja News search on it, but such themes certainly
do exist in material for women too.
gary
rob...@bigfoot.com wrote:
>
> In article <3713257B...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>,
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> >
> >
> > tenj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > (Japanese) Women are taught to be shy and demure,
> >
> > I don't think there's any formal training involved. Usually it's just
> > plain old humility and self-effacement, common in both Japanese men and
> > women. Foreigners are often misled into thinking that if you're not
> > self-assertive, then you must be shy and demure.
> >
>
> *****There is some truth in that; the real clincher is viewing the women both
> in private situations, when their more likely to make their feelings known,
> and public, where they appear to submit more tamely. But I never said there
> was any formal training involved; in fact it's cultural and learned
> unconsciously.
So do you think things should be different, that the Japanese would be
better off if they were more self-assertive and less accommodating in
their dealings with others?
>
> > > and not to make their feelings well
> > > known, except to all but the most trusted friends and family. So men (or
> > > BOYS, to be more accurate) get their thrills from reading the racy comics
> >
> > And some Japanese women, to be even more accurate. See the "Rape
> > Videos" thread from a few months ago for an brief discussion of "Ladies'
> > Comics", lewd sex manga that are read by Japanese women.
> >
> *****I missed the thread, but I admit that I have been a liitle surprised to
> find quite explicit comics in women's magazines as well. But nothing
> advocationg rape, violence, or vicious humiliation, so I'm not sure where
> you're going with this.
Maybe you better read the thread I mentioned before coming to that
conclusion. Or better yet, go and leaf through some actual Ladies'
Comics. You can find them in any bookstore in Japan.
--gary
tenj...@my-dejanews.com
gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>
> rob...@bigfoot.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <3713257B...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>,
> > gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > tenj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > (Japanese) Women are taught to be shy and demure,
> > >
> > > I don't think there's any formal training involved. Usually it's just
> > > plain old humility and self-effacement, common in both Japanese men and
> > > women. Foreigners are often misled into thinking that if you're not
> > > self-assertive, then you must be shy and demure.
> > >
> >
> > *****There is some truth in that; the real clincher is viewing the women both
> > in private situations, when their more likely to make their feelings known,
> > and public, where they appear to submit more tamely. But I never said there
> > was any formal training involved; in fact it's cultural and learned
> > unconsciously.
>
> So do you think things should be different, that the Japanese would be
> better off if they were more self-assertive and less accommodating in
> their dealings with others?
>
I'd say it depends on the situation.
> >
> > > > and not to make their feelings well
> > > > known, except to all but the most trusted friends and family. So men (or
> > > > BOYS, to be more accurate) get their thrills from reading the racy comics
> > >
> > > And some Japanese women, to be even more accurate. See the "Rape
> > > Videos" thread from a few months ago for an brief discussion of "Ladies'
> > > Comics", lewd sex manga that are read by Japanese women.
> > >
> > *****I missed the thread, but I admit that I have been a liitle surprised to
> > find quite explicit comics in women's magazines as well. But nothing
> > advocationg rape, violence, or vicious humiliation, so I'm not sure where
> > you're going with this.
>
> Maybe you better read the thread I mentioned before coming to that
> conclusion. Or better yet, go and leaf through some actual Ladies'
> Comics. You can find them in any bookstore in Japan.
>
As I said, I've seen some. More amusement than anything else.
At worst I've seen the comics poke a lot of fun (sorry for the pun)
at the men--but vicious attacks? Nope. And if you really want to
see the issue, go rent a few "av" videos. Whatever your complaint
is, some of those tapes make the women's comics look angelic.
--Rob
Jason
wrote:
->Hi group,
->
->Even though I am new to this NG I would like to start a thread.
->When I look at Japanese erotica, one of the things I find most
striking is
->the violence towards women. I wonder why this is. I find it hard to
believe
->that this is the way Japanese women are treated in real life. I
particularly
->would like to hear from any Japanese women, what they have to say on
the
->subject.
Due to nature of their society, Japanese have enormous amount of
bottled up emotion just about to explode. They are very extreme in
separating what is acceptable to say in society (tatamae: as in they
do not want to be ijimae[isolated/bullied from peers] and their true
feelings(honne). You have to understand they live in shima-kuni(
Island Nation). Not like mainland where you could easily move to
different part of world, Japanese, if they are isolated, have no
recourse to do anything about it. It is for this reason why they put
so much emphasis on group than individual. Consequence of that is
that Japanese male are so fucking timid. They have no idea when to
express their true feelings. Perfect example is when they say 'chotto
muzukashii'. It means its LITTLE difficult. Anyone who knows Japanese
will tell you that this is definite NO. Many foreigners who do not
know Japanese however, thinking some persuation could change their
mind, becomes more assertive, making Japanese host more uneasy.
So what happens when men are timid? Instead of saying ' Go, fuck off'
to any offending parties, they meekly go home and watch movies,
cartoon(Man, those Japanese cartoon are violent!) and TV shows that
subjugate physically weaker sex. This is also main reason why Japanese
have tendency to go 'Koo Koo' sometimes. Their brutality in Nanking,
China, mass hysterical Killing of Koreans in Great Kanto Earthquake
are some of the few example. I might also add that this is the main
reason why Japanese women are so attractive to foreign men.
Jason
gary
This is a snippet of my post from the thread a few months ago about
Ladies' Comics. Devil or angel?...
> Here is a synopsis of one story I found in this month's "Ai". The title
> is "kinjirareta tawamure" ("Forbidden Play"), by Mia Amiya:
>
> Young female teacher has sex in classroom and at a hotel with school
> president. Later, she bound, gagged, and raped by a masked intruder at
> her apartment. The school president loses interest in her, and takes up
> with another young teacher in the same school. They too have sex on a
> desk in a classroom. The first teacher fears she will now lose her
> position as a teacher. Later in her apartment the rapist intruder
> returns, this time unmasked. He is the son of the school president.
> They have wild sex in her bed, and the story ends with her looking over
> the shoulder of the son with a smile and a gleam in her eye, safe in the
> knowledge that her position as a teacher is now secure by the trump card
> of being raped by the school president's son.
--gary
Jeff Schrepfer
What a profoundly in-depth analysis of the Japanese people. Did you just
draw a bunch of buzz words out of a hat to put this together or did you
actually give this analysis some thought?
--
=[]= You have received a message from:
||
|| ________________
__||__ | |
/ || \ | Jeff Schrepfer |
\ / |________________|
/ () \
/ __ \
\ / Email: Je...@Schrepfer.com
\______/ Homepage: http://www.Schrepfer.com
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
me. This account from a ladies' manga is rather
tame. As *FICTION*, it is almost romantic. It
sounds like the plot from a Japanese trendy TV
drama. [There is a movie currently out, co-
starring Hijiri Kojima, featuring a middle aged
man who abducts and imprisons a uniformed high
school girl against her will. Eventually, she falls
in love with him, and they have some explicit wild
sex scenes. (I didn't know Kojima was that kind of
actress. But at the same time, she's just released
a nude photo collection.) It is said to be based on a
true kidnapping case, and was well reviewed by
the Japan Times. The romantic twist and artistic
praise practically make the crime sound ok. The
concept is so bizarre, I'll wait to see it on video.]
On the other hand, a few years back I browsed
some scat or kiddie manga out of curiosity that
made me feel quite ill. They feature such things as
abduction torture rape killings on a monthly
basis. What made it worse for me was a lot of it
was technically quite good, and characters were
even deliberately drawn in cute styles usually
seen in popular animation, or even depicted or
parodied popular characters such as Sailor Moon
or Nurse Angel Ririka (being abducted, bound,
given an enema, forced to eat her own feces, gang
raped and killed by Marvel Comic's X-Men - I had
bought that comic wrapped in plastic without
knowing the contents. I threw it away while still
on the bus home from the store. Ditto a poorly
drawn Evangelion snuff manga).
These comics are not produced by ordinary scum.
Some seriously talented, seriously disturbed
people are doing this for a living, to an
appreciative readership with extreme tastes. A
little more looking suggests what I saw was
representative of that genre. These are
presumably not for women, based on the almost
exclusively working age male clientele of stores
where the worst stuff I've seen is sold. I went
nearly every week at one stage, and once every
couple of months now.
A few years ago I went to an independent publisher
and doujinshi manga convention. It was quite
interesting. Most visitors were female high school
students. I was further surprised to see that
every single artist sitting behind the vendor's
tables at that convention, and there must have
been a couple hundred, were young women from
high school age to perhaps late twenties, including
the ones whose work featured erotica and adult
themes, usually of a romantic nature. Their work
looked professional at times, as well.
The sight of uniformed high school girls (not the
funny talking, brown haired, miniskirted, loose
sock type) drawing porn and autographing their
volumes of porn for their equally young fans was
quite a mismatch. I frankly believe they don't
have enough experience with sex and
relationships to draw what they do, particularly
the lesbian/homoerotic stories. I also peruse
informational magazines for fans of these
independent manga, evidently for young women
and otaku. The scenes contained in these comics I
have seen, and the few I have bought, do not
feature the same degree of sexual savagery as the
"men's comics." (Horror comics for women can
however, be very disturbing, but don't see sex
involved.) I believe the adult Ladies Comics I have
seen were also the work of women.
gary wrote:
>
> tenj...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > if you really want to
> > see the issue, go rent a few "av" videos. Whatever your complaint
> > is, some of those tapes make the women's comics look angelic.
I've seen excerpts of sadomasochistic videos.
Women being hoisted by their roped breasts,
being made into human pincushions, tormented
with nose hooks, clothespins, etc. Not for me. And
just looking at the box cover of a bukkake 100
ejaculation into the face or cropophagia video can
make me queasy. Then there is the child rape
porn. Also mainly European animal videos. I don't
know manga for women like these.
> This is a snippet of my post from the thread a few months ago about
> Ladies' Comics. Devil or angel?...
--
Eric Takabayashi
Fukuyama, Japan
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> Perhaps reading too much manga has desensitized
> me. This account from a ladies' manga is rather
> tame.
Actually, there were more lurid stories in the manga I took that example
from, featuring much more graphic sex. But they seemed to be running
storylines, and so difficult to describe briefly. One in particular by
Yayoi Watanabe stuck out: it was depicted a three-way gang-bang porn
video session, and the only real difference between it and typical male
porn manga was that the female was the central character, and so was
written from her perspective.
> On the other hand, a few years back I browsed
> some scat or kiddie manga out of curiosity that
> made me feel quite ill. They feature such things as
> abduction torture rape killings on a monthly
> basis.
[snip]
> These comics are not produced by ordinary scum.
> Some seriously talented, seriously disturbed
> people are doing this for a living, to an
> appreciative readership with extreme tastes. A
> little more looking suggests what I saw was
> representative of that genre. These are
> presumably not for women, based on the almost
> exclusively working age male clientele of stores
> where the worst stuff I've seen is sold. I went
> nearly every week at one stage, and once every
> couple of months now.
Most of my knowledge of kiddie porn/manga comes by way of a Japanese
friend who fancies this stuff and occasionally shares his hobby with
me. He's a real nice guy, just he has a real taste for the twisted.
>
> A few years ago I went to an independent publisher
> and doujinshi manga convention. It was quite
> interesting. Most visitors were female high school
> students.
I actually don't consider myself a manga fan, only occasionally do I
pick up one of my wife's and read it. But I would like to find out more
about the independent manga scene in Japan. In bigger cities, where are
these manga sold? Anyone have a URL, by chance?
> I've seen excerpts of sadomasochistic videos.
> Women being hoisted by their roped breasts,
> being made into human pincushions, tormented
> with nose hooks, clothespins, etc. Not for me. And
> just looking at the box cover of a bukkake 100
> ejaculation into the face or cropophagia video can
> make me queasy. Then there is the child rape
> porn. Also mainly European animal videos. I don't
> know manga for women like these.
I've been wanting to break down and rent one of those bukkake videos.
One that seemed interesting featured a uniformed announcer/MC lady that
chatted up the sperm-soaked victim throughout her ordeal and got her
impressions of the experience after she had bathed. All very
matter-of-fact, it seemed. I'm being very truthful here: I never buy
or rent porno, I just look through it while me and the wife are at the
bookstore. My wife could definitely not stomach bukkake, and I just
wouldn't feel right watching it alone. Call me a romantic. Is bukkake a
Japanese phenomenon? Don't ever recall seeing such a thing back in my
college days in the US.
--gary
Prince Richard Kaminski
gary wrote:
> Most of my knowledge of kiddie porn/manga comes by way of a Japanese
> friend who fancies this stuff and occasionally shares his hobby with
> me. He's a real nice guy
Your nice guy "friend" might find himself in jail soon then as I read
that they've just made child porn illegal in Japan.
gary
Manga and other graphic depictions are still allowed. And I think
masturbating to kiddie sing-along TV shows will always be permitted, so
long as you keep the door closed.
--gary
Wenslauw Schwartz
Mind you, just closing the door might not be enough. As a guy in my dorm
noticed when he was watching a porn flick in the shared kitchen with his
pants down... He was found by a female friend of mine. She wanted to turn
off the tv, cos she thought that someone had left it on since it was
dark in the kitchen except for the tv. The next day she attached a 'no
jerking off' sign to the kitchen door. It's a nice drawing of a hand with
a penis in it with a red bar through it, inside of a red circle.
Wenslauw
--
wens...@stranger.selwerd.cx
http://www.xs4all.nl/~wenslauw
Believe in one thing, and one thing only.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I read
> that they've just made child porn illegal in Japan.
Some good things have been happening in Japan
recently:
TV cigarette ads were taken off the air. (I don't
smoke, so I was never in danger of being swayed,
but I thought the Kent ads for example, were
cool.)
The government is thinking of doing something
about dioxin. (Tolerance limits still much higher
than EU.)
The equal opportunity law was given some teeth,
prohibiting discriminatory job advertisements
for general employment (race queens, hosts and
hostesses still ok, as such things are gender
specific). I am now waiting to see how long it
takes till I stop hearing "stewardess," or what
confusion results when male flight attendants
begin working. So far on the news, I've seen two
young men in training. The employment situation
for women in general, does not seem to be very
good, as it is already mid April and I still see
groups of young women in "recruit" suits
searching for work, when it should be normal to
have found jobs before graduation, like the men.
The sudden boom in sexual harrassment education
materials and programs has made the news.
Critics are waiting to see what penalties are
enacted for violators.
I believe it was the Osaka police who instituted the
first ever Japanese rape counseling referral
service for victims of rape. Same article claimed
that Osaka only has 120 rapes reported a year.
Those garish signs advertising sex industry
establishments are prohibited, especially near
schools, etc. News showed some cops personally
pulling them down. Now, ha ha, I'm waiting to see
what they do about the sex industry itself. To this
week, I still see specials (like the one hosted by
SMAP's Nakai) featuring high school whores and
their pedophile customers, and enjou kousai
situations for easy money on trendy dramas like
"Naomi." I still see club advertisements on
"Wonderful" and "Tonight 2."
However, (I didn't clip it, so I can't be sure) I
thought that Diet proposal to ban child porn died a
couple weeks ago. I did hear there's some sort of
crackdown on Japanese web pages that show child
porn now, but I still see members only sites.
What I see on the store shelves seems the same:
Alice Club, Alice Club Shosetsu, Petit Tomato,
Junior Mint, Little Lips, Waffle, Crepu, Cream,
Momo Cream, Beppin School, Houkago Club,
Zuppin, Candy Pot, Tsubomi, etc., etc. Of course
the manga are still there.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> the only real difference between it and typical male
> porn manga was that the female was the central character, and so was
> written from her perspective.
What's typical male porn manga? Shonen Jump
allegedly aimed at elementary or junior high boys
can get racy at times, like in "Bastard." I've seen
artwork that was too hot get censored or replaced
in later bound editions. Young Jump for high
school and up gets much worse. They start
showing snuff scenes. Then are the really violent
bondage and beating rape scenes in other monthly
comics I see in the ordinary book shops and
convenience stores. But I do know I haven't seen a
"ladies manga" like that scat or kiddie snuff porn
which made me feel ill. Perhaps you should see
the most disgusting manga you can find to
compare. WWII Nazis gang raping a novice nun all
night, who learns to like it, later seeking service
as nanny for a German officer. Stuff like that. I
don't know bukkake for ladies, either.
> Most of my knowledge of kiddie porn/manga comes by way of a Japanese
> friend who fancies this stuff and occasionally shares his hobby with
> me. He's a real nice guy, just he has a real taste for the twisted.
I will not claim as some do, that indulging in such
materials feeds desires, or that it causes
perversion in normal people. On the other hand, I
do wonder what kind of people seek that stuff out.
Can they be trusted near small children? Ditto the
artists and writers. I can't believe all these
stories are pure fantasy or fiction. The accounts
of child molestation in Alice Club could be
perfectly true.
> I would like to find out more
> about the independent manga scene in Japan. In bigger cities, where are
> these manga sold? Anyone have a URL, by chance?
You can go to the periodical manga corner of your
nearest large book store, and probably find some
info mags put out by independent manga
publishers or enthusiasts, telling you how to get
them by mail order. In the anime and game corner
of the manga section, you may find a number of
independent manga already on the shelves. Ask the
help for "doujinshi." Or you can go to the manga
shelves of your nearest porn store. Ask your
friend for specifics in your area.
> I've been wanting to break down and rent one of those bukkake videos.
But why?
> One that seemed interesting featured a uniformed announcer/MC lady that
> chatted up the sperm-soaked victim throughout her ordeal and got her
> impressions of the experience after she had bathed.
How would you know if you don't buy or rent? I
have no idea what actually goes on in a bukkake
video. The cover scenes are quite enough for me.
Ditto the scat or child rape videos. I do leaf
through any unwrapped magazines.
> I'm being very truthful here: I never buy
> or rent porno,
On perhaps ten separate occasions, I've gone on
Japanese porn rental binges, getting three or five
at a time. (Hey, in my neighborhood, there's a
100 yen video night.) What impresses me about
Japanese adult models and video actresses are how
cute and innocent many of them appear to be,
compared to how overmade, plastic, and
deliberately slutty many Western women in porn
look. Reactions during the act also look much more
natural than in American porn (fake screamer Yu
Hitomi the obvious exception). The most famous
Japanese porn stars at any given time are also
about 20 years old. I wish I could have those
glamour posters advertising new releases in the
stores.
> Is bukkake a
> Japanese phenomenon? Don't ever recall seeing such a thing back in my
> college days in the US.
Westerners I've worked with say the same. Online
I've seen bukkake videos and other Japanese porn
including kiddie porn, advertised in English by
and for people in the US. A serious employment in
Japan website even once listed a position
involving translation of Japanese porn for
advertisements. There are Western fans of even
extreme Japanese porn. But perhaps Western
women, even porn actresses, do not do things like
that for any amount of money. Or the Western fans
like such fare because it *does* feature Japanese
women. Asian-American advocates on SCAA claim
40 percent of video porn in the US features Asian
women.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> It's a sad day when I read about people advocating stricter
> censorship laws in any country....sad indeed...
I believe the freedom of speech/press articles in
the US or Japanese Constitutions refer to the
freedom to be critical of government, for
example, or the freedom to express one's own
opinion. Not the freedom to commit crimes,
document them, and profit from them, as in the
case of child pornography. And it should be
obvious that restrictions on "adult" themed
materials are not working, if they are in the
hands of children, or are readily available, as
when broadcast on prime time TV.
I understand people's concern over censorship.
But are you willing to publicly defend child
pornography, which would be included?
Eric Takabayashi (et...@fkym.enjoy.ne.jp)
Glen Malley
>
>I understand people's concern over censorship.
>But are you willing to publicly defend child
>pornography, which would be included?
Amazing. Someone says something about censorship
being a bad thing and everyone always brings out
child pornography as the center argument. When
are we gonna get over this Cult of the Child?
The article I was talking about was referring to
sexuality and violence being "accessible" to children.
That's what I was talking about. What bugs me is that
people so readily lump the two things together.
Somehow, ALL sexuality and ALL violence become
related in some fashion to child pornography.
This ranks right up there with the "nazi" law
of Usenet...someone mentions censorship and
then the whole thing goes downhill into child porno.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> However, (I didn't clip it, so I can't be sure) I
> thought that Diet proposal to ban child porn died a
> couple weeks ago.
My error. It didn't "die," it was sent back for
revision. Today's Daily Yomiuri claims it is
almost certain to become law next month. "The
distribution and sale of child pornography
materials, such as photographs and videotapes of
naked or partially naked children and sex scenes
with minors will also be penalized." Engaging in
sexual acts with a girl under 17 (I thought
prostitution was already banned, in the 1950's,
ha ha) "in return for money or goods, or the
promise of money or goods," will be punishable
with jail time or fine. "But graphic images in
comics and computer graphics will not be subject
to penalties, because this may infringe on the
freedom of expression guaranteed by the
Constitution."
It's online, too:
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/
0417po17.htm
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/0417so18.htm
I guess cleaner bookshelves will be a reality. I
wonder about grandfather clauses for all the porn
already out, or if they have to be turned in or
destroyed. Police can't raid everybody with porn.
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> But I do know I haven't seen a
> "ladies manga" like that scat or kiddie snuff porn
> which made me feel ill. Perhaps you should see
> the most disgusting manga you can find to
> compare. WWII Nazis gang raping a novice nun all
> night, who learns to like it, later seeking service
> as nanny for a German officer. Stuff like that. I
> don't know bukkake for ladies, either.
I'll do some more research this weekend at the local bookstore. What
really grabs me about Ladies' Comics is that the intention seems to be
actual sexual arousal in the female reader -- erotica, not a shock
treatment. But those more disturbing men's comics like you mentioned
seem to be written as wild subversive fantasy, something you read more
with a sly grin on your face than a hard-on in your pants.
>
> > Most of my knowledge of kiddie porn/manga comes by way of a Japanese
> > friend who fancies this stuff and occasionally shares his hobby with
> > me. He's a real nice guy, just he has a real taste for the twisted.
>
> I will not claim as some do, that indulging in such
> materials feeds desires, or that it causes
> perversion in normal people. On the other hand, I
> do wonder what kind of people seek that stuff out.
> Can they be trusted near small children? Ditto the
> artists and writers. I can't believe all these
> stories are pure fantasy or fiction. The accounts
> of child molestation in Alice Club could be
> perfectly true.
Ever seen medical examination fantasy porn, with exposed and probed and
wounded young female patients? I don't doubt there are some doctors who
harbor a little sexual interest -- however mild -- in their work. But I
wouldn't hold it against them. Recognizing this potential for evil in
oneself, and yet still be able to function, is the mark of a sound mind,
if you ask me. Much more desirable than denial -- or, to take the other
extreme, losing it altogether in a state of permanent perversion. I
don't think we need to fear the ones drawing and writing kiddie porn
manga. At least they have found some way to channel their desires into
something moderately creative and -- if their work pacifies the cravings
of others like them -- socially useful. The ones we have to worry about
are less noticeable, sitting in the seat next to us quietly stewing
away.
> > I've been wanting to break down and rent one of those bukkake videos.
>
> But why?
I'm the curious type. Is it really for real? All that stuff dripping
off her face onto her nice navy OL outfit? I can't believe it until I
see it. But you are right -- you get the gist of the thing just by
looking at the cover, so renting is unnecessary.
>
> > One that seemed interesting featured a uniformed announcer/MC lady that
> > chatted up the sperm-soaked victim throughout her ordeal and got her
> > impressions of the experience after she had bathed.
>
> How would you know if you don't buy or rent?
I saw a review in a magazine. It featured lots of freeze-frames.
> I have no idea what actually goes on in a bukkake
> video. The cover scenes are quite enough for me.
What I'd really like to see is a "The Making of Bukkake" video, that
goes step-by-step through the whole production of the thing. Where do
they recruit these women? For that matter, where do they recruit the
men? Is it a close-knit community where everyone knows each other? Do
they all go out to a nomikai after everything's wrapped up?
> > I'm being very truthful here: I never buy
> > or rent porno,
>
> On perhaps ten separate occasions, I've gone on
> Japanese porn rental binges, getting three or five
> at a time. (Hey, in my neighborhood, there's a
> 100 yen video night.) What impresses me about
> Japanese adult models and video actresses are how
> cute and innocent many of them appear to be,
> compared to how overmade, plastic, and
> deliberately slutty many Western women in porn
> look. Reactions during the act also look much more
> natural than in American porn
You got that right. Although I said I don't rent porn, I have in the
past snuck in to my brother-in-law's room and borrowed some of his while
he was away and watched them with my wife. And compared to the realism
of J-porn, US porn is just schoolboy burlesque. Ever stumble into the
"Gaijin" section of the video shop after wandering around in the
domestic aisles? Ugh.
> There are Western fans of even
> extreme Japanese porn. But perhaps Western
> women, even porn actresses, do not do things like
> that for any amount of money. Or the Western fans
> like such fare because it *does* feature Japanese
> women.
Or maybe like you and me, they just think it's better produced. No
cheesy background music might be part of the reason too.
> Asian-American advocates on SCAA claim
> 40 percent of video porn in the US features Asian
> women.
Seems like an awful high figure to me. They were always tucked away in
a specialty corner from what I remember.
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Amazing. Someone says something about censorship
> being a bad thing and everyone always brings out
> child pornography as the center argument. When
> are we gonna get over this Cult of the Child?
Oh, maybe when children aren't exploited or
victimized, especially for a profit, any more.
Maybe when I don't see child pornography and
materials pandering to other extreme fixations on
bookshelves. Is this a trick question?
> The article I was talking about was referring to
> sexuality and violence being "accessible" to children.
> That's what I was talking about. What bugs me is that
> people so readily lump the two things together.
> Somehow, ALL sexuality and ALL violence become
> related in some fashion to child pornography.
And that article was in response to me posting in
part about child pornography, and how readily it
was available, in a thread about violence against
women as seen in comic books or magazines. And
whether you like it or not, anything controversial
or repulsive can and will be brought up against
people advocating total freedom.
> This ranks right up there with the "nazi" law
> of Usenet...someone mentions censorship and
> then the whole thing goes downhill into child porno.
I was waiting for someone like you to jump in like
someone did a few weeks ago, to tell me that
freedom of the press is not about child
pornography. In many countries, it is already
illegal to produce, distribute, buy, sell or
possess. Japan may also ban child pornography
next month. If freedom of the press is not about
child pornography, and child pornography is
illegal, why object if someone would like it
eliminated? Why object if people would not like
children to see something sexual on tv or in the
stores?
So tell me. Are you against the kinds of
pornography I was discussing, or the depictions of
violence against women this tread was about, or
not?
Glen Malley
>
>Oh, maybe when children aren't exploited or
>victimized, especially for a profit, any more.
>Maybe when I don't see child pornography and
>materials pandering to other extreme fixations on
>bookshelves. Is this a trick question?
You can be for any cause you wish, just don't
let it impair your judgement. Far too many
people get tunnel-vision once they have a
"cause" to fight for, and end up screwing over
everyone...
Your use of the term "extreme fixations" makes
me wonder just how general your feelings are
concerning censorship. It's generalities which
give people excuses to jump from talking of
child pornography to talking of immoral acts
to talking of "things deemed obscene by the
majority".
>And that article was in response to me posting in
>part about child pornography, and how readily it
>was available, in a thread about violence against
>women as seen in comic books or magazines. And
>whether you like it or not, anything controversial
>or repulsive can and will be brought up against
>people advocating total freedom.
Naturally.
Shock value and inflammatory language are the mainstay
of most causes and the propaganda believers use to
advance those causes. It's normal.
Otherwise, how would anyone convince anyone else of
anything?
>I was waiting for someone like you to jump in like
>someone did a few weeks ago, to tell me that
>freedom of the press is not about child
>pornography. In many countries, it is already
>illegal to produce, distribute, buy, sell or
>possess. Japan may also ban child pornography
>next month. If freedom of the press is not about
>child pornography, and child pornography is
>illegal, why object if someone would like it
>eliminated? Why object if people would not like
>children to see something sexual on tv or in the
>stores?
The issue should not be about what children are
CAPABLE of seeing, but about what children are
LOOKING at. There is a huge difference between
a passive situation and an active situation.
People should be concerned with controlling the
ACTIVE side of the issue, namely reining in their
kids when they stray from the desired path.
If a parent cannot keep their kids from thumbing
through porno mags or watching adult movies then
the issue lies with the PARENT and not with the
publisher or producer of the medium.
>So tell me. Are you against the kinds of
>pornography I was discussing, or the depictions of
>violence against women this tread was about, or
>not?
You used a very useful and important word in your
question: "depiction".
There are some acts I am against.
I am not against depictions of any acts.
A large number of problems in the world would be
easily solved if more people understood the difference
that word makes.
Rob
gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> This is a snippet of my post from the thread a few months ago about
> Ladies' Comics. Devil or angel?...
>
> > Here is a synopsis of one story I found in this month's "Ai". The title
> > is "kinjirareta tawamure" ("Forbidden Play"), by Mia Amiya:
> >
> > Young female teacher has sex in classroom and at a hotel with school
> > president. Later, she bound, gagged, and raped by a masked intruder at
> > her apartment. The school president loses interest in her, and takes up
> > with another young teacher in the same school. They too have sex on a
> > desk in a classroom. The first teacher fears she will now lose her
> > position as a teacher. Later in her apartment the rapist intruder
> > returns, this time unmasked. He is the son of the school president.
> > They have wild sex in her bed, and the story ends with her looking over
> > the shoulder of the son with a smile and a gleam in her eye, safe in the
> > knowledge that her position as a teacher is now secure by the trump card
> > of being raped by the school president's son.
>
> --gary
Sounds pretty ill to me. I doubt a lot of women would read that with
joy in their eyes. If you look hard enough, I guess there are a couple
of cases like you mentioned, but that hardly represents the norm--just
an extreme counterexample.
--Rob
--
=======================================================================
READ: The Japan FAQ: Know Before You Go
at
http://thejapanfaq.cjb.
=======================================================================
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Your use of the term "extreme fixations" makes
> me wonder just how general your feelings are
> concerning censorship.
I've already been about as specific as I want to be
about what I don't like to see in my local book or
video shops on this thread. Perhaps some readers
are already offended. I've even provided a list of
magazine titles for anyone to check out for
themselves. Child porn may be on its way to being
outlawed in Japan, and in any case, it is already
illegal to trade sex for money, rape is already
illegal, and the age of consent is now 16
nationwide. Therefore, making any adult videos
with girls under 16 is already illegal. As for
other things I find offensive like scat videos,
peeping tom videos, high school girl sex videos,
extreme S&M (not mere whip and chain fantasy)
videos, animal videos, etc., why don't you ask
some people what they think? What is your own
opinion?
> It's generalities which
> give people excuses to jump from talking of
> child pornography to talking of immoral acts
> to talking of "things deemed obscene by the
> majority".
You can judge what the majority thinks, if a poll
is taken. In reference to child pornography, how
specific do you want me to be? You want me to buy
or rent some materials and take notes, to describe
what scenes and acts they contain? Doesn't it
suffice to say that magazine or video box covers
show nude photos of prepubescent girls or sex
scenes, or they market themselves by giving the
girls' ages as 16, 13, 8 (they look it), or
whatever? Doesn't it suffice to say it has been
national news for some years how some girls sell
their bodies or appear in magazines or videos
nude or in sex scenes for pocket money, despite
its being illegal? Do you read the Japanese news
accounts of how some people get arrested for
picking up high school whores, or arrested for
acting as agents for high school whores, or
arrested for taking/possessing photos or video of
(sometimes of themselves having sex with)
underage girls?
> Naturally.
> Shock value and inflammatory language are the mainstay
> of most causes and the propaganda believers use to
> advance those causes. It's normal.
> Otherwise, how would anyone convince anyone else of
> anything?
Yes, it is natural. Because total freedom of the
press does and would allow child pornography and
other materials most may find offensive. And your
thoughts on "propaganda" are irrelevant, because
the existence of child porn under the banner of
freedom of the press is fact. It is exactly what the
Japanese pornographers are now using in their
fight against the proposal to outlaw child porn.
Constitutional right is the loophole publishers are
using to continue to allow "depictions" of nude or
partially clothed children, regardless of any law
which may be enacted.
> The issue should not be about what children are
> CAPABLE of seeing, but about what children are
> LOOKING at. There is a huge difference between
> a passive situation and an active situation.
And if NYPD Blues comes on during *prime* time
when most people are expected to watch
television, or kids watch R or X rated movies, as
many ordinary kids do, you should already have a
good idea of exactly what they are looking at. (Or
hearing, in the case of NYPD Blues. I don't like
hearing the N word, and during a popular TV show
is one the last places I'd like to hear it. I don't
watch NYPD Blues, but that is irrelevant, because
other people just looking for decent
entertainment, are. And they may be just as
surprised to be confronted by that sort of language
unawares in a public forum.)
> People should be concerned with controlling the
> ACTIVE side of the issue, namely reining in their
> kids when they stray from the desired path.
> If a parent cannot keep their kids from thumbing
> through porno mags or watching adult movies then
> the issue lies with the PARENT and not with the
> publisher or producer of the medium.
Yes, parents *should* hold the ultimate
responsibility. But tell me: if you have children,
are you able to control what they do? Do you
naively claim to know what they do or what is
done to them? And I assume you are an adult. Did/
Could your parents control you? They steered you
free of sex, drugs, alcohol, tobacco and porn while
growing up? And you obeyed their rules? I doubt
it, and not because I think you are an evil person.
> You used a very useful and important word in your
> question: "depiction".
OK, so let's be specific. An adult video containing
nude scenes of, say a nine year old girl being
raped by a man. I've seen such a video in
advertisements and on the shelf in an ordinary
(not "adult") book shop. Whether or not it is even
"forcible" rape (from the photo and description,
it sure appears to be), should not be an issue. Sex
with children is *illegal*. You for or against?
> There are some acts I am against.
You don't like being general, but could I have even
a few examples of some acts, please?
> I am not against depictions of any acts.
If you are referring to *fiction*, or say, comic
books not using pictures of real people, there is
nothing I can say against that. But let me remind
you in the case of child porn, I am referring to
actual abuse. You approve of people making money
selling many copies of pictures or video of them
raping children? You approve of any of these
"afficionados" being around young children?
Would you like your young child in the company of
a pedophile?
> A large number of problems in the world would be
> easily solved if more people understood the difference
> that word makes.
I understand the word "depiction" as you are using
it. And by your usage, I cannot criticize your
viewpoint. But do you understand the word
"depiction" as I am using it? I've seen sex
oriented materials meant for adults (even with
the "Adults Only"/"Over 18" label on them or the
shelves) on display in "ordinary" book and video
stores, perhaps even in the general section; I see
it on the Internet, I read about it, and I've been to
"adult" book and video stores, too. Made a visit to
one just yesterday, as a matter of fact, to see if
the laws enacted April 1, or the "sure thing"
proposal to ban child porn is having any effect,
and to check up on what I'm posting about. And
yes, I've seen some photos of the real thing, too.
Not what I would show to my mother. I know what
I am referring to. Do you?
Eric Takabayashi (et...@fkym.enjoy.ne.jp)
Fukuyama, Japan
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Still?
> check again.... they might very well
> be 4th year students looking for jobs
> for next year...
> Some of my students have already
> started going to visit perspective
> employers....
True. But you are forgetting this is another ice
age for job hunters. I know jobless graduates
(almost?) all female. And in spite of the poor
economic situation or common sense, I know
jobless people who've quit jobs, too. Some of them
want to take long trips overseas. Some didn't like
their jobs. Others want to relocate.
Rob
kor...@home.com (Jason) wrote:
> Due to nature of their society, Japanese have enormous amount of
> bottled up emotion just about to explode. They are very extreme in
> separating what is acceptable to say in society (tatamae: as in they
> do not want to be ijimae[isolated/bullied from peers] and their true
> feelings(honne). You have to understand they live in shima-kuni(
> Island Nation). Not like mainland where you could easily move to
> different part of world, Japanese, if they are isolated, have no
> recourse to do anything about it.
*** Since you're looking at this from a more historical perspective,
tens of thousands of Japanese HAVE moved abroad--especially
to South America, Hawaii, and the American west coast. Hence,
the hundreds of thousands of their decedents who are still there.
It is for this reason why they put
> so much emphasis on group than individual.
***Not quite. Their group mentality has been mainly attributed to
Japan being an agricultural society, historically speaking,
requiring group efforts to produce enough food to live. Japanese also
started in villages, and hence the "village mentality" which still
continues today.
Consequence of that is
> that Japanese male are so fucking timid. They have no idea when to
> express their true feelings. Perfect example is when they say 'chotto
> muzukashii'. It means its LITTLE difficult. Anyone who knows Japanese
> will tell you that this is definite NO. Many foreigners who do not
> know Japanese however, thinking some persuation could change their
> mind, becomes more assertive, making Japanese host more uneasy.
> So what happens when men are timid? Instead of saying ' Go, fuck off'
> to any offending parties, they meekly go home and watch movies,
> cartoon(Man, those Japanese cartoon are violent!) and TV shows that
> subjugate physically weaker sex.
*** You're confusing tatemae and inability to express their feelings--to say
"Sore wa chotto muzukashii desu" is very clear-- NO. There is no inability
in expressing anything there. It is just more polite than a cold NO.
Secondly, men can express their feelings--you just don't say screw you to
your boss--and that's pretty much true anywhere. But when it's safe, such
as when they're home, you'll find men have no trouble expressing how much
they hate their job, etc. Same anywhere.
This is also main reason why Japanese
> have tendency to go 'Koo Koo' sometimes. Their brutality in Nanking,
> China, mass hysterical Killing of Koreans in Great Kanto Earthquake
> are some of the few example. I might also add that this is the main
> reason why Japanese women are so attractive to foreign men.
>
> Jason
>
>
**** Gee. And we all thought the military had something to do with it. Did
you just get off the plane in Japan? And for Japanese women loving foreign
men--the majority express no interest at all. There is a significant minority
though, who likes the idea that western men will help them with the
housework, or if they move out of Japan they'll actually have a house with a
yard, or who won't think of them as merely housekeepers and baby-machines, or
take western men as some exotic fantasy.
--Rob
--
=======================================================================
READ: The Japan FAQ: Know Before You Go
at
http://homepages.go.com/~tenjin97.html
=======================================================================
Atsunori Tamagawa
I don't know what type of Japanese erotica you've watched, but I suspect
that the one you are mentioning is categorized in so-called "SM movie".
Please verify that if ropes were extensively used.
They are, by difinition, rather violent and seemingly painfull.
But please don't worry, because I can guarantee you that MOST Japanese
guys are not like that.
I, for example, in my 30+ years of life, I have never treated any wemen
in that manner.
Hasta la vista
Atsunori
Cynnyk wrote:
>
> Hi group,
>
> Even though I am new to this NG I would like to start a thread.
> When I look at Japanese erotica, one of the things I find most striking is
> the violence towards women. I wonder why this is. I find it hard to believe
> that this is the way Japanese women are treated in real life. I particularly
> would like to hear from any Japanese women, what they have to say on the
> subject.
Biku
check again.... they might very well
be 4th year students looking for jobs
for next year...
Some of my students have already
started going to visit perspective
employers....
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote in message
>
> The employment situation
>for women in general, does not seem to be very
>good, as it is already mid April and I still see
>groups of young women in "recruit" suits
Mike W.
Rob <tenj...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> In article <371568CD...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>,
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > This is a snippet of my post from the thread a few months ago about
> > Ladies' Comics. Devil or angel?...
> >
> > > Here is a synopsis of one story I found in this month's "Ai". The title
> > > is "kinjirareta tawamure" ("Forbidden Play"), by Mia Amiya:
> > >
> > > Young female teacher has sex in classroom and at a hotel with school
> > > president. Later, she bound, gagged, and raped by a masked intruder at
> > > her apartment. The school president loses interest in her, and takes up
> > > with another young teacher in the same school. They too have sex on a
> > > desk in a classroom. The first teacher fears she will now lose her
> > > position as a teacher. Later in her apartment the rapist intruder
> > > returns, this time unmasked. He is the son of the school president.
> > > They have wild sex in her bed, and the story ends with her looking over
> > > the shoulder of the son with a smile and a gleam in her eye, safe in the
> > > knowledge that her position as a teacher is now secure by the trump card
> > > of being raped by the school president's son.
> >
> > --gary
>
> Sounds pretty ill to me. I doubt a lot of women would read that with
> joy in their eyes. If you look hard enough, I guess there are a couple
> of cases like you mentioned, but that hardly represents the norm--just
> an extreme counterexample.
>
in porn is not near the number of men, the intensity and depravity of
the material available is equal. Go to your local bookstore and browse
through a copy of 'L'Amour' or 'Hime' and there are others- some even
stronger. These are manga by women, for women not only containing
stories and pix centering on scat, sm and rape but also 'letters' from
readers detailing their experiences in these things. Ads for rape and
sm videos are found in these manga but you will almost never see a man
reading them. They are found in the WOMEN'S comic sections and I've
seen some of my students reading/carrying them.
L'amour sells about half a million copies per issue nationwide.There
are also a small number of women's video shops that cater to the ladies
(duh!), and sm and rape videos are amongst the big sellers. This
phenomena has been discussed on TV in Japan and in the Jp media quite
often complete with lurid details.
NY Times reporter Nikolas Kristoff wrote an article on it very similar
to Japanese articles I had seen. Oddly, when he wrote it, some witchunt
organization of JP expatriates in NY named 'Zipangu' used it as a front
and center example of unfair reporting by foreign reporters in Japan in
a godawful book they published. They claimed that Kristoff implied that
Japanese women want to be raped. This was maliciously and deliberately
false. Kristoff simply recorded the reality that these lurid manga
raise this belief. You should be able to find the article archived
somewhere online.
My take is that women who read this stuff, a minority admittedly, don't
WANT to be involved in it any more than men who read porn want to rape
or inflict sm. The Japanese can be very frank about 'sick' fantasies
(including horror as etaka pointed out) but, generally speaking, show
remarkable restraint when applying these wishes to real life. A
parallel is the endless badmouthing of the boss and the office while
drinking but the utmost propriety when at work the next day. A number
of Japanese women I've met assume that men would like to do really
nasty things and that this is a part of nature. The related belief that
most men can control themselves is also assumed. But, IMHO, admitting
to a Japanese woman that, yes, a part of you would like to dominate and
control and make a mindless love slave of every attractive woman in the
world is a good thing. It's expected. THe fact that you don't actually
behave in such a manner as to make it come true is also expected.And
you may find that Japanese women harbour wild fantasies too- but the
converse, that they are extremely unlikely to carry them out is also
part of the game.
This honesty regarding one's brutish side, tempered by a realistic view
of the consequences of carrying it out, is a refreshing part of
Japanese society.
Mike Wadi
Jason
Why is that when somebody writes something about somebody, somebody
always comes back with some lame answers about how "is not so" based
on that, all countries exhibit same phenomena. The key phrase here is
"how extreme it is". Of course many countries or people for that
matter, exhibit same behavior as Japanese. But in the case of
Japanese, they are extreme. Just look straight in the mirror and with
total honesty and say;
1. Ordinary Japanese men are not timid when compare to American,
Europeans or Koreans.
2 Ordinary Japanese are not groupish when compare to American,
Europeans or Koreans.
3. Japanese histroy did not exhibit great brutality when compare to
American, Europeans or Koreans.
4. Ordinary Japanese women are not attractive to foreign when compare
to American, Europenas or Koreans.
Yeah, go ahead, laugh.
Jason
PS. As for your response on "Island nation psyche" of Japanese. That
was a joke, right? If is not, that is so lame answer! I did not coin
phrase " Island nation psyche". Others so call 'Japan Expert' did.
Moreover, when somebody answers with your request with "that is little
difficult". Do you actually think most American would accept that as
definite "NO" Your equation with tatamae with politeness is exactly my
point! Politeness now, Backstabbling later! Even my white
ex-coworker who is married to Japanese once commented that they had
few fights over this Japanese Backstabbing!
Rob
> >
> > Sounds pretty ill to me. I doubt a lot of women would read that with
> > joy in their eyes. If you look hard enough, I guess there are a couple
> > of cases like you mentioned, but that hardly represents the norm--just
> > an extreme counterexample.
> >
> Sorry Rob, Gary's right. While the number of Japanese women interested
> in porn is not near the number of men, the intensity and depravity of
> the material available is equal. Go to your local bookstore and browse
> through a copy of 'L'Amour' or 'Hime' and there are others- some even
> stronger. These are manga by women, for women not only containing
> stories and pix centering on scat, sm and rape but also 'letters' from
> readers detailing their experiences in these things. Ads for rape and
> sm videos are found in these manga but you will almost never see a man
> reading them. They are found in the WOMEN'S comic sections and I've
> seen some of my students reading/carrying them.
>
Again, I never said they simply don't exist-- if you look hard
enough for something, you'll eventually find it. The kooks of the Flat Earth
Society pull out a quote from Moses which taken at face value says
the earth is flat, not round. So maybe all those NASA photos are
fakes afterall. As you write down below, you can hardly say the
whole Japanese womanhood are rushing out to buy this junk.
I have yet to see any evidence, much less proof, that women are
saying "I like violence against me."
> L'amour sells about half a million copies per issue nationwide.There
> are also a small number of women's video shops that cater to the ladies
> (duh!), and sm and rape videos are amongst the big sellers. This
> phenomena has been discussed on TV in Japan and in the Jp media quite
> often complete with lurid details.
>
See above.
> NY Times reporter Nikolas Kristoff wrote an article on it very similar
> to Japanese articles I had seen. Oddly, when he wrote it, some witchunt
> organization of JP expatriates in NY named 'Zipangu' used it as a front
> and center example of unfair reporting by foreign reporters in Japan in
> a godawful book they published. They claimed that Kristoff implied that
> Japanese women want to be raped. This was maliciously and deliberately
> false. Kristoff simply recorded the reality that these lurid manga
> raise this belief. You should be able to find the article archived
> somewhere online.
>
I sure I can if I wanted to search for it. I can also find lots of
articles on the Japanese "lifetime employment", as if it were the
norm in Japan--which it isn't--it applies to at best a third of
the total Japanese workforce.
> My take is that women who read this stuff, a minority admittedly, don't
> WANT to be involved in it any more than men who read porn want to rape
> or inflict sm. The Japanese can be very frank about 'sick' fantasies
> (including horror as etaka pointed out) but, generally speaking, show
> remarkable restraint when applying these wishes to real life. A
> parallel is the endless badmouthing of the boss and the office while
> drinking but the utmost propriety when at work the next day. A number
> of Japanese women I've met assume that men would like to do really
> nasty things and that this is a part of nature. The related belief that
> most men can control themselves is also assumed. But, IMHO, admitting
> to a Japanese woman that, yes, a part of you would like to dominate and
> control and make a mindless love slave of every attractive woman in the
> world is a good thing. It's expected. THe fact that you don't actually
> behave in such a manner as to make it come true is also expected.And
> you may find that Japanese women harbour wild fantasies too- but the
> converse, that they are extremely unlikely to carry them out is also
> part of the game.
>
--At least you say it's a minority--and a small one at that. And I haven't
heard of lots of sexual violence against men--the vast majority are taught
to be meek--or at least look meek. Women would certainly like to punch
their boss out--and from what many of my friends say to me, their
complaints are pretty justified. But that's a far cry from there are
lots of women who want to be brutalized, even if it's a fantasy.
> This honesty regarding one's brutish side, tempered by a realistic view
> of the consequences of carrying it out, is a refreshing part of
> Japanese society.
The lack of any desire to inflict pain, dominate, or inflate
one's own ego would be even more refreshing.
Rob
kor...@home.com (Jason) wrote:
> Dear Rob:
> Why is that when somebody writes something about somebody, somebody
> always comes back with some lame answers about how "is not so" based
> on that, all countries exhibit same phenomena. The key phrase here is
> "how extreme it is". Of course many countries or people for that
> matter, exhibit same behavior as Japanese. But in the case of
> Japanese, they are extreme. Just look straight in the mirror and with
> total honesty and say;
> 1. Ordinary Japanese men are not timid when compare to American,
> Europeans or Koreans.
> 2 Ordinary Japanese are not groupish when compare to American,
> Europeans or Koreans.
> 3. Japanese histroy did not exhibit great brutality when compare to
> American, Europeans or Koreans.
> 4. Ordinary Japanese women are not attractive to foreign when compare
> to American, Europenas or Koreans.
> Yeah, go ahead, laugh.
OK, with complete honesty I said it. And laughed out loud at your
horrendous lack of understanding of how things work in Japan.
Your fault is (once again) judging Japanese culture by using your
own as a norm.
1) Timid? None of my Japanese friends are timid when it comes
to showing their opinion. And for more formal dealings, what
Japanese want to say comes thru loud and clear. A lot in the way
they say it of course comes from what position they have vis a vis
me--my landlord hardly is timid to me--I'll tell you that. You fail
to distinguish again between being polite and being timid.
2) (ROTFL) You MUST be joking!! The Koreans I see are even MORE
clannish than the Japanese--in fact nearly all of the Koreans
who were my classmates back in my university days belonged to
the Korean Club. You'll also find many churches of solely Korean
members, often with the name Korean (Catholic) Church, Korean
(other denomination) Church, etc. etc. And why don't you fly on over to
Los Angeles and see Korea Town-- 2 miles straight of Korean signs.
You obviously haven't seen much of the world. Japanese groupish?
You bet. But Koreans are even more so, and Chinese are groupish too.
3) Since you want to bring history into this, it would be no exaggeration
to say that Americans and Europeans have killed over 100, if not 1000
times more people than all the Japanese have in this century. Especially
in the name of spreading Christianity. And if you want to see a more
recent example of European brutality, turn on the tele and take a look
at Kosovo.
4) As said, the majority of them are indifferent. Some are though,
for the reasons I listed in my last post.
> PS. As for your response on "Island nation psyche" of Japanese. That
> was a joke, right? If is not, that is so lame answer! I did not coin
> phrase " Island nation psyche". Others so call 'Japan Expert' did.
-- But you called it so since Japan is "shima guni" -- Looks like
you've been poking around a grade schooler's text on Japan.
> Moreover, when somebody answers with your request with "that is little
> difficult". Do you actually think most American would accept that as
> definite "NO" Your equation with tatamae with politeness is exactly my
> point! Politeness now, Backstabbling later! Even my white
> ex-coworker who is married to Japanese once commented that they had
> few fights over this Japanese Backstabbing!
???
So all Japanese are going to backstab you. Yeah, that shows your
understanding of Japan all right.
I rest my case.
--Rob
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> But those more disturbing men's comics like you mentioned
> seem to be written as wild subversive fantasy, something you read more
> with a sly grin on your face than a hard-on in your pants.
For the safety of women and children, I hope so.
And considering I see men reading it on the train,
active arousal would be a bad idea.
> Ever seen medical examination fantasy porn, with exposed and probed and
> wounded young female patients?
Yes, but that's not to my tastes. I like cute women
and romantic situations. SM, bondage, rape,
wounds, are not for me.
> I don't doubt there are some doctors who
> harbor a little sexual interest -- however mild -- in their work.
Ob/Gyn jokes. I've seen people write in to Dear
Abby, that it's actually boring. Many old and
diseased parts, after all. My acquaintance who
began working in the mortuary in high school
didn't take pleasure in his job, either. Said the
only time a young woman came in was after a car
accident. Uh, ok, buddy.
> But I
> wouldn't hold it against them. Recognizing this potential for evil in
> oneself, and yet still be able to function, is the mark of a sound mind,
> if you ask me.
Would it be acceptable to satisfy one's pedophiliac
desires by working as a school teacher, even if all
they do is look or take pictures? That seems to be
the case in the story of one gaijin woman working
at a girls' school focusing undue attention on the
gym class and collecting photos. Would it be
acceptable for pedophiles to just look at kids on
the street or at the beaches, as opposed to
molesting them? There are pages and magazines
full of those reader submitted photos, too,
including nudes. I see such men roaming the cities
(especially say, Americamura, Osaka) laden down
with cameras taking pictures of girls with or
without their consent, sometimes using very long
zoom lenses to catch girls down the block
unawares. What if they were your kids published
in those photos in kiddie porn magazines, or as the
platonic object of a pedophile's attentions? That
ok? How about these guys who chat up girls on
telephone clubs or in ordinary online chat rooms,
the ones which sometimes act as fronts for child
prostitution or are where some pedophiles find
their next victims? That ok?
> Much more desirable than denial -- or, to take the other
> extreme, losing it altogether in a state of permanent perversion.
Just last night, I was reading some online sources
regarding child pornography and pedophilia
revealed by a Yahoo! search. They claim that it is
a small minority of pedophiles who actually
commit crimes, say one percent. The others
fantasize. That's good. But in any case, I believe
they all should get treatment for their problems.
The molesters should die.
> I
> don't think we need to fear the ones drawing and writing kiddie porn
> manga.
As mentioned, I wonder how some get their
inspiration? Who were their figure models?
There is a serious monthly magazine on how to
illustrate manga called Comickers. They
interview famous professional artists on their
materials and techniques, with many ads for
materials and art schools. Well last month, or the
month before last, was the illustrated story of a
manga artist and his prepubescent nude girl
model. It unsurprisingly ended in some explicit
man/child sex. The relationship was not
portrayed as exploitive or abusive, but romantic.
They snuggled under the blanket whispering sweet
nothings, while it snowed outside. Would such a
"nice" relationship involving your child, really
be ok? Comickers is not a form of child porn, nor
is it in the adult section. They are an instructional
magazine, for the young artists I've mentioned, or
otaku. Comickers was not the place I'd expect to
find such a story.
> At least they have found some way to channel their desires into
> something moderately creative and -- if their work pacifies the cravings
> of others like them -- socially useful.
If. But I'd prefer they see psychiatrists, and any
actual molesters, die. Possession of even "pseudo"
images is outlawed in England. It is more
ambiguous in the US. Of course it is a-ok in
Japan.
> The ones we have to worry about
> are less noticeable, sitting in the seat next to us quietly stewing
> away.
Exactly.
> I'm the curious type.
***A warning for anyone easily offended***
DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER.
Let's see. How curious are you? As mentioned, I
went down to a shop two days ago to check up on
what I was writing. Next to one of the high school
girl and bukkake video shelves was one of the scat
shelves. The box cover photos, in full view of
passersby, showed women, indeed, the entire
walls of the rooms, smeared with filth, the women
licking their fingers as if it were chocolate
frosting or they were simulating fellatio. Well,
the filth was real. How do I know? Because the
photos also showed it coming out of them, and
them smearing it all over themselves or eating it.
There were also pregnant women covered in filth,
and eating filth. God knows how they got clean and
fresh smelling later to go home to their families.
God knows how they avoided e. coli or O-157
poisoning, and why they did not care. Not only the
people who make, distribute, or enjoy those
videos, but those women themselves are SICK
people. Those pregnant women should be
considered unfit mothers, their children stripped
away. I do not exaggerate when I say I got a cold
feeling in my body when I saw them.
Directly behind me, was the . . . what would you
call that genre? The photos facing me showed
clinical closeups of anuses with foreign objects
protruding from them, such as lighted candles
dripping wax all over. One photo showed what
appeared to be a pink condom FULL of irregularly
shaped foreign objects, being *forcefully* pulled
out of a straining anus. What the hell is in these
peoples' minds? Is there no shame?
There are manga like this, too. I don't know
materials for ladies like this.
> What I'd really like to see is a "The Making of Bukkake" video,
How about "The Making of Pregant Cropophagist"
videos? I'd like to know what makes those sick
whores function. Then put them and their children
into state care.
> And compared to the realism
> of J-porn,
If you mean realism by, it looks like how real
people might have sex, yes. But if you mean
realism by, they act like professionals, no.
Japanese porn actresses may lose complete
control during a scene, get out of character, flub
lines, break down crying, have incredible
orgasms, etc. Hell, I've heard actresses
interviewed (porn actresses appear rather often
on tv) saying there may be NO SCRIPT. Sometimes
the male costars or video staff may have to stop
filming to see if they are ok. One video featured
one superstar actress in a gang rape scene. (I
believe it was Hitomi Yu, the title was "Za
Kogeki.") Dressed in leather and acting tough, she
confronts a group of men in a deserted building.
Well, the final touch of that scene was the actress
getting traded back and forth by two muscular
guys who were pounding her with nothing
remotely romantic involved. The actress' screams
and flailing arms were a little too convincing. The
director walked over when it was all done. The
actress slapped him across the face and spoke to
him angrily. Later, they filmed the actress
coming out nice and fresh from the bathroom,
with a big grin across her face, saying she was
totally alright. My ass.
> Or maybe like you and me, they just think it's better produced.
If you could find an attractive woman, you could
make a Japanese porn video yourself, with a hand
held digital camera. It's how even some big time
videos are made, like that Miki Tachibana video I
saw. The actor filmed at least one scene himself,
as he was doing her in the bed, the only ones in the
entire room. His shaking hand, holding the
camera, was reflected in the mirror.
No, I watch Japanese porn because I like the cuter
women.
> No
> cheesy background music might be part of the reason too.
J porn has lots of cheesy music. I wondered why
the theme song for Bunko Kanazawa's debut video
was so bad. I then realized she was singing it
herself, in falsetto. God. Then is "Kirakiraboshi
Kirara," featuring Kaori Kirara. A damn cute
woman who performed fine scenes, the epitomy of
"cute and innocent" porn actress. The daffy
synthesizer BGM made me want to laugh.
--
Eric Takabayashi (et...@fkym.enjoy.ne.jp)
Fukuyama, Japan
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
gary
WOMEN'S COMICS. IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED BY PORNOGRAPHY, PLEASE SKIP
AHEAD TO THE NEXT POST.
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Rob wrote:
>
> In article <371568CD...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>,
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > > Here is a synopsis of one story I found in this month's "Ai". The title
> > > is "kinjirareta tawamure" ("Forbidden Play"), by Mia Amiya
[snipped]
>
Rob:
> Sounds pretty ill to me. I doubt a lot of women would read that with
> joy in their eyes. If you look hard enough, I guess there are a couple
> of cases like you mentioned, but that hardly represents the norm--just
> an extreme counterexample.
Eric:
> Then are the really violent
> bondage and beating rape scenes in other monthly
> comics I see in the ordinary book shops and
> convenience stores. But I do know I haven't seen a
> "ladies manga" like that scat or kiddie snuff porn
> which made me feel ill. Perhaps you should see
> the most disgusting manga you can find to
> compare.
Got the May issue of "Comic Amour" right here. The first two pages are
glossy and in full color. The heading in Japanese:
"Sensei no chinpo de watashi no asoko ni taibatsu o ataete kudasai"
Translated:
"Please punish my 'down there' with teacher's dick"
The pages are crammed full of illustrations of a uniformed high school
girl, dripping body fluids, being worked over by "teacher". Teacher
fingering girl while rubbing chalk board eraser on her nipples. Teacher
inserting chalk into her hole, artfully highlighted with a big red
drip. Teacher getting sucked by girl lying on gym mat, her legs bent up
past her head and butt raised up, allowing teacher to lick away at her
vital parts. There is a story that accompanies the illustrations, set
off in paragraphs scattered about the pages. Small, mosaiced
photographs of girls licking and sucking and moaning are also included.
The first actual manga story is titled, "kijyo no sumu ie" -- "Home
where a demoness lives". This is a flashback story where the main
female character recounts the sexual exploits of her at 13 years old
with her step-father. Wearing her middle-school uniform, she is first
just felt up and licked by him. Enchanted by this experience, she is
later seen lying on the floor alone masturbating, thinking to herself,
"I feel a flame of desire flickering inside me." Then step-father and
girl are alone while mother is out. Again she is in her sailor
uniform. He inserts a vibrator into her from behind. After loosening
her up, he takes a calligraphy brush, tickles her anus, and slides it
inside. "Stop, stop!," she cries. He pulls it out, and she drips goo
onto the wooden floor. To stop the flow, he puts it back in her anus,
and inserts an even larger brush into her other hole, handle first. He
places a sheet of paper on the floor, has her squat over it, and using
her expelled fluids as ink, she attempts to paint brushstrokes. The
drawing for this scene is easy to misinterpret -- the brush, bristles,
and "ink" are drawn in a way that makes it look like the girl is
shitting on the paper. The episode ends with the step-father being
sucked by the girl and spurting into her open mouth.
This is not the end of the story, though. There is sex with the mother,
and more sex with the girl, all drawn in the same lurid, drippy style.
The girl, Miya, just can't seem to get enough: "Please, give it to me!
Put Father's thing in there!", she begs. But paradise doesn't last
forever. In the end step-father slips off the edge of a cliff and hangs
by a tree root, but mother just stands there and lets him fall to his
death.
Want more? How about Yayoi Watanabe's offering that starts off with
three guys, three vibrators, and one woman, nipples joined together by
two clothespins on a chain. Later on she gets shachou's prism-shaped
desk nameplate shoved inside her.
You can find these and other stories in May's issue of "Comic Amour".
The romantic cover features a smiling gaijin couple on the the beach,
guy carrying girl on his back. Both are fully dressed.
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
[porn snip]
> You can find these and other stories in May's issue of "Comic Amour".
> The romantic cover features a smiling gaijin couple on the the beach,
> guy carrying girl on his back. Both are fully dressed.
Hime. L'Amour. Comic Amour. Sad, and sad that
women draw and read that stuff. (What does your
wife say?) Do women do snuff, too?
Mike W.
Rob <tenj...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > > Sounds pretty ill to me. I doubt a lot of women would read that with
> > > joy in their eyes. If you look hard enough, I guess there are a couple
> > > of cases like you mentioned, but that hardly represents the norm--just
> > > an extreme counterexample.
> > >
> > Sorry Rob, Gary's right. While the number of Japanese women interested
> > in porn is not near the number of men, the intensity and depravity of
> > the material available is equal. Go to your local bookstore and browse
> > through a copy of 'L'Amour' or 'Hime' and there are others- some even
> > stronger. These are manga by women, for women not only containing
> > stories and pix centering on scat, sm and rape but also 'letters' from
> > readers detailing their experiences in these things. Ads for rape and
> > sm videos are found in these manga but you will almost never see a man
> > reading them. They are found in the WOMEN'S comic sections and I've
> > seen some of my students reading/carrying them.
> >
> enough for something, you'll eventually find it. The kooks of the Flat Earth
> Society pull out a quote from Moses which taken at face value says
> the earth is flat, not round. So maybe all those NASA photos are
> fakes afterall. As you write down below, you can hardly say the
> whole Japanese womanhood are rushing out to buy this junk.
And no one has. Come on.
You said you hadn't seen any of that kind of stuff for women and doubted that
it existed. Gary and I has shown that it does exist and is a phenomena that is
well-known and talked about in Japan, which was NOT what you believed.
No one made a claim that ALL women read this stuff or even that most do, so
don't try to pretend that that is the argument. THe fact is, that there IS a
significant amount of nasty porn out there for women. You didn't think so
before. But you were wrong.
>
> I have yet to see any evidence, much less proof, that women are
> saying "I like violence against me."
But no one in this thread has made such a claim- this is just a false
representation of the discussion. Can you point out ANYWHERE in this thread
where someone has made the claim that Japanese women want to be
violated? You can't. But the examples that Gary and I have pointed out most
assuredly DO indicate that a significant number of women have an interest in
this kind of porn, which is what you were disputing.
>
> > NY Times reporter Nikolas Kristoff wrote an article on it very similar
> > to Japanese articles I had seen. Oddly, when he wrote it, some witchunt
> > organization of JP expatriates in NY named 'Zipangu' used it as a front
> > and center example of unfair reporting by foreign reporters in Japan in
> > a godawful book they published. They claimed that Kristoff implied that
> > Japanese women want to be raped. This was maliciously and deliberately
> > false. Kristoff simply recorded the reality that these lurid manga
> > raise this belief. You should be able to find the article archived
> > somewhere online.
> >
> I sure I can if I wanted to search for it. I can also find lots of
> articles on the Japanese "lifetime employment", as if it were the
> norm in Japan--which it isn't--it applies to at best a third of
> the total Japanese workforce.
You don't get it, do you? Has anyone said that Jps female interest in this
porn is the 'norm'? Was I making that claim? Who has set the criteria that
one third equals insignificance- other than your own arbitrary self? Why do
you insist on distorting the claims of the discussion to try to wriggle out
of your own lack of knowledge on the subject?
If there is a movement or an interest in some phenimena in even 10% of the
population it is worth noting. NO ONE is saying it's the norm. It's just a
significant number. More than you thought, obviously.
Analogy:
28% of Asian-Canadians say they have been victims of discrimination. Well,
that's hardly the norm, says Rob, not every Asian-Cdn has felt discriminated
against- so, says Rob, it's not worth noting.
> The lack of any desire to inflict pain, dominate, or inflate
> one's own ego would be even more refreshing.
>
The Japanese are just realistic about these things. Perhaps they understand
real human emotions rather than fanciful ideals. And my goodness that's
healthy- show me a man (or woman) who doesn't admit any basic want to
maximize their power over the universe and I'll show you a dangerous, self-
deceptive, cognitively dissonant person.
Mike Wadi ('fikeru')
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > Ever seen medical examination fantasy porn, with exposed and probed and
> > wounded young female patients?
>
> Yes, but that's not to my tastes. I like cute women
> and romantic situations. SM, bondage, rape,
> wounds, are not for me.
Oh, I like injury. Not inflicting pain, just seeing a woman with a limp
or an eye patch or gauze-wrapped arm is very erotic to me. And my
passion for hemp rope bondage is well known here.
>
> > I don't doubt there are some doctors who
> > harbor a little sexual interest -- however mild -- in their work.
> > But I
> > wouldn't hold it against them. Recognizing this potential for evil in
> > oneself, and yet still be able to function, is the mark of a sound mind,
> > if you ask me.
>
> Would it be acceptable to satisfy one's pedophiliac
> desires by working as a school teacher, even if all
> they do is look or take pictures? That seems to be
> the case in the story of one gaijin woman working
> at a girls' school focusing undue attention on the
> gym class and collecting photos.
Taking pictures in gym class? That seems a little too out of the
ordinary, and would make others uncomfortable. So I would say no to
this.
> Would it be
> acceptable for pedophiles to just look at kids on
> the street or at the beaches, as opposed to
> molesting them? There are pages and magazines
> full of those reader submitted photos, too,
> including nudes. I see such men roaming the cities
> (especially say, Americamura, Osaka) laden down
> with cameras taking pictures of girls with or
> without their consent, sometimes using very long
> zoom lenses to catch girls down the block
> unawares.
If you can do it and go unnoticed, why not? I have a whole bunch of
photos of Japanese school children at tourist sites I took when I first
came to Japan. That someone could see some sort of erotic value in them
doesn't change the fact they are harmless snapshots.
> What if they were your kids published
> in those photos in kiddie porn magazines, or as the
> platonic object of a pedophile's attentions? That
> ok?
As long as the face was blacked out, I guess it wouldn't matter to me.
Seriously. I've seen the pictures your talking about in Alice Club and
the like, and I've thought, "guys are paying money to look at this?"
They're just innocent photos of children in common situations, no
different than photos all parents take of their own children. Where is
the obscenity?
> How about these guys who chat up girls on
> telephone clubs or in ordinary online chat rooms,
> the ones which sometimes act as fronts for child
> prostitution or are where some pedophiles find
> their next victims? That ok?
Don't know much about these, so I can't say.
> Just last night, I was reading some online sources
> regarding child pornography and pedophilia
> revealed by a Yahoo! search. They claim that it is
> a small minority of pedophiles who actually
> commit crimes, say one percent. The others
> fantasize. That's good. But in any case, I believe
> they all should get treatment for their problems.
I wonder what portion of those who fancy child pornography are like my
friend -- someone who has a healthy desire for adult women, but just
likes dipping into the bizarre occasionally. I should say though that
while he's shown me lots of manga featuring all kinds of fantastic
sexual encounters with men and young children, he has nothing showing
actual sex with actual children. And if I'm not mistaken, Alice Club
shows only solitary children -- both clothed and nude -- and no adults
anywhere to be found.
> The molesters should die.
No argument from me. Scott might disagree, though. (Sorry, Scott --
couldn't resist)
> As mentioned, I wonder how some get their
> inspiration? Who were their figure models?
> There is a serious monthly magazine on how to
> illustrate manga called Comickers. They
> interview famous professional artists on their
> materials and techniques, with many ads for
> materials and art schools. Well last month, or the
> month before last, was the illustrated story of a
> manga artist and his prepubescent nude girl
> model. It unsurprisingly ended in some explicit
> man/child sex. The relationship was not
> portrayed as exploitive or abusive, but romantic.
> They snuggled under the blanket whispering sweet
> nothings, while it snowed outside. Would such a
> "nice" relationship involving your child, really
> be ok?
No way. Off with his head.
> > At least they have found some way to channel their desires into
> > something moderately creative and -- if their work pacifies the cravings
> > of others like them -- socially useful.
>
> If. But I'd prefer they see psychiatrists, and any
> actual molesters, die. Possession of even "pseudo"
> images is outlawed in England. It is more
> ambiguous in the US. Of course it is a-ok in
> Japan.
Do you know the work of Trevor Brown? He's a graphic artist from
England who now lives and works in Japan. His pictures of little
Japanese girls used to appear regularly in Too Negative, an art-gore-sex
pictorial that has since gone under, I believe. You can now see his
work in Bubka, a tawdry magazine that isn't the best showcase for it.
Take a look at his web site, and you can see why he had to leave England
and work in Japan. I'm no pedophile, but I do enjoy Trevor Brown's
stuff.
http://www.pileup.com/babyart/
--gary
Cynnyk
I wasn't referring to just one instance of Japanese erotica. It is not that
I watched a movie and thought "Wow, these Japanese are violent towards
women!" I NEVER meant to say that. I also know what S&M is.
What surprises me is, that most Japanese erotica you find on the Internet,
for instance, deals with tying up women, inserting various items into them,
enemas etc. Also, this sort of "hardcore" erotica is readily available in
Japan. I myself live in Holland, which is probably one of the most liberal
countries in the world when it comes to sexuality. Even over here, you have
to go to some trouble trying to find such material.
What I was interested in, is why this sort of stuff seems to be so appealing
to the Japanese. I was particularly interested in, was the womens point of
view is. It is very possible that my perception of this phenomenon is wrong
or distorted.I never meant to imply that ALL Japanese men like to hurt or
mistreat women. (It would surprise me if that were the case, and in fact,I
know that most Japanese men are very gentle). So I hope you do not feel
insulted. I never meant to insult anyone.
Cynnyk
--
I am not suffering from insanity, I am enjoying every minute of it!
Atsunori Tamagawa <tama...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:371AA61D...@worldnet.att.net...
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Oh, I like injury. Not inflicting pain, just seeing a woman with a limp
> or an eye patch or gauze-wrapped arm is very erotic to me. And my
> passion for hemp rope bondage is well known here.
Now I'm worried.
> Taking pictures in gym class? That seems a little too out of the
> ordinary, and would make others uncomfortable. So I would say no to
> this.
If I recall correctly, according to the anti-child
porn activist priest who related that story to the
Yomiuri twice, that woman had been working
awhile, finally losing her job after her concerned
roommate told someone. Then are the occasional
news stories of teachers arrested for enjou
kousai, the scandalous scout leaders and priests in
other countries, etc. If it is claimed only 1% of
pedophiles are committing crimes, there are a lot
more near our kids in secret. One of the first
Japanese teachers I met asked if I liked sailor
suits, and said he knew teachers who did. At my
junior high school were maybe three teachers
who married former students. High school girls
are bait for some conversation teachers, too.
> > Would it be
> > acceptable for pedophiles to just look at kids on
> > the street or at the beaches, as opposed to
> > molesting them?
> If you can do it and go unnoticed, why not? I have a whole bunch of
> photos of Japanese school children at tourist sites I took when I first
> came to Japan.
I have pictures of some former students. Male as
well as female, and nothing I'd be ashamed to show
anyone.
> That someone could see some sort of erotic value in them
> doesn't change the fact they are harmless snapshots.
You know many of those photos do things like focus
on the contours of girls' groins as they kick or
stretch during gymnastics, peek up skirts or into
shirts, blouses and bathing suits, and watch girls
stripping completely nude or changing clothes,
for pedos to get off. And according to the news
when some pedos get arrested, they make money
selling these photos to the magazines. They are sad
mofos.
> > What if they were your kids published
> > in those photos in kiddie porn magazines, or as the
> > platonic object of a pedophile's attentions? That
> > ok?
>
> As long as the face was blacked out, I guess it wouldn't matter to me.
You really wouldn't mind if some pedo scum in
your neighborhood were getting off ogling your
kid or stalking them, as well as there being mofos
who actually took and submitted photos to pedo
mags? You don't mind the fact I've read letters or
net messages giving out info like where to find
cute little girls or even identifying specific girls
(who don't resist) for chikan to feel up on the
trains, etc.? I'd find any mofo after my kid with a
baseball bat.
> Seriously. I've seen the pictures your talking about in Alice Club and
> the like, and I've thought, "guys are paying money to look at this?"
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/pgs/yaman/
child.htm
says UK and US legislation requires the images be
indecent. Why not test the limits of decency by
taking and selling crotch shots and peeping tom
photos of unsuspecting girls, and consulting with
your home country's law enforcement?
> They're just innocent photos of children in common situations, no
> different than photos all parents take of their own children. Where is
> the obscenity?
Because even in the case of the "innocent" photos
of say, girls walking down the street, the nature
of the photos suggests no one's consent was
received for taking the photos or their
publication. It's an invasion of privacy.
As for the crotch shots and peeping tom shots,
show some to your customs officer or law
enforcement official to get their opinions. Don't
bend over for the soap.
> he has nothing showing
> actual sex with actual children.
Good.
> And if I'm not mistaken, Alice Club
> shows only solitary children -- both clothed and nude -- and no adults
> anywhere to be found.
That seems to be my take on it, but that's no
excuse for its existence. There are other sources
which do show hard core action. Try a net search
or scan your newsgroups. Ill mofos.
> Do you know the work of Trevor Brown?
Now I do. I didn't wait for the thumbnails to
download.
> He's a graphic artist from
> England who now lives and works in Japan.
I wonder why.
> Take a look at his web site, and you can see why he had to leave England
> and work in Japan. I'm no pedophile, but I do enjoy Trevor Brown's
> stuff.
You worry me.
Prince Richard Kaminski
> You worry me.
He reminds of those people who say "I'm no racist, I just don't like
them damn n****rs".
Norman Diamond
>I believe it was the Osaka police who instituted the first ever
>Japanese rape counseling referral service for victims of rape.
Oh yeah, I read about that too.
Not only does the fox guard the henhouse, but now the fox is going
to offer counseling too.
>Same article claimed that Osaka only has 120 rapes reported a year.
I didn't read that part of it, but it's hardly surprising. Not many
victims have the fortitude necessary to submit to a second rape.
--
<< If this were the company's opinion, I would not be allowed to post it. >>
"I paid money for this car, I pay taxes for vehicle registration and a driver's
license, so I can drive in any lane I want, and no innocent victim gets to call
the cops just 'cause the lane's not goin' the same direction as me" - J Spammer
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > Oh, I like injury. Not inflicting pain, just seeing a woman with a limp
> > or an eye patch or gauze-wrapped arm is very erotic to me. And my
> > passion for hemp rope bondage is well known here.
>
> Now I'm worried.
>
> > I'm no pedophile, but I do enjoy Trevor Brown's
> > stuff.
>
> You worry me.
Imperfection and fragility are highly valued qualities for me. My
fascination for bodily injury is just an extension of this aesthetic.
But I'm no threat. Unless you count honesty as threatening. Some women
honestly like being tied up. And many young Japanese girls who have
seen exhibits of Trevor Brown's work honestly say it is "cute". Do you
worry about them?
--gary
gary
> > You worry me.
>
> He reminds of those people who say "I'm no racist, I just don't like
> them damn n****rs".
This analogy makes absolutely no sense. I also enjoyed Nabokov's
"Lolita". Does this make me a pedophile?
--gary
Scott Reynolds
>
> He reminds of those people who say "I'm no racist, I just don't like
> them damn n****rs".
Hey, I don't like nutters either, but I don't consider myself a racist.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
> One of the first
> Japanese teachers I met asked if I liked sailor
> suits, and said he knew teachers who did. At my
> junior high school were maybe three teachers
> who married former students.
I've had sex with my wife while she wore her old high-school uniform. I
don't think we are alone in this kind of sex play: I've seen magazine
articles that present stores which cater to adult women who like to wear
slightly altered, exotic, or comical high-school uniforms. Not for
street wear, I gather.
> You know many of those photos do things like focus
> on the contours of girls' groins as they kick or
> stretch during gymnastics,
Yes, these photos are ridiculous. But are they pornographic? Anyone
can see such sights a a gym meet, or on TV when the girls are doing
their routines. How about that insurance (IIRC) commercial from a few
months ago that had a school girl lift her leg straight up over her
head, slightly exposing her (gym?) shorts? I thought it was very sweet
and innocent -- slightly sexual, no doubt, but innocent nonetheless.
> > > What if they were your kids published
> > > in those photos in kiddie porn magazines, or as the
> > > platonic object of a pedophile's attentions? That
> > > ok?
> >
> > As long as the face was blacked out, I guess it wouldn't matter to me.
>
> You really wouldn't mind if some pedo scum in
> your neighborhood were getting off ogling your
> kid or stalking them, as well as there being mofos
> who actually took and submitted photos to pedo
> mags?
Stalking? No. But can you tell the difference between a man ogling
little girls in the park, and a man delighting in the innocence of
little girls in the park? What if the looker is a woman?
>
> > They're just innocent photos of children in common situations, no
> > different than photos all parents take of their own children. Where is
> > the obscenity?
>
> Because even in the case of the "innocent" photos
> of say, girls walking down the street, the nature
> of the photos suggests no one's consent was
> received for taking the photos or their
> publication. It's an invasion of privacy.
>
> As for the crotch shots and peeping tom shots,
> show some to your customs officer or law
> enforcement official to get their opinions. Don't
> bend over for the soap.
My point is this: Who's standards should we use when defining
obscenity? That pictures of small girls playing in the park can incite
lust in some deviant men does not change the simple reality that they
are just...pictures of small girls playing in the park. And if the
parents are willing partners in the arrangement, where is the harm in
young girls modeling in the nude? I can look at such pictures without
feeling aroused. Can't you?
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> [porn snip]
>
> > You can find these and other stories in May's issue of "Comic Amour".
> > The romantic cover features a smiling gaijin couple on the the beach,
> > guy carrying girl on his back. Both are fully dressed.
>
> Hime. L'Amour. Comic Amour. Sad, and sad that
> women draw and read that stuff. (What does your
> wife say?)
She criticizes the style: "Too sloppy, difficult to read, weak
storyline..." The lurid content itself? Doesn't faze her. Didn't faze
the young girl at the cash register either when I asked if Comic Amour
was actually a manga for women: She just picked it up, casually leafed
through it, and said, "yes, women read this". I should mention I live
in a small town in Kyushu and bought it at an ordinary bookstore.
> Do women do snuff, too?
Not sure. My wife only really reads these things if we find one that
looks interesting in the magazine pile on paper trash pick-up day.
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Imperfection and fragility are highly valued qualities for me. My
> fascination for bodily injury is just an extension of this aesthetic.
Do you watch "ER," war movies, real fighting
videos, or hang around hospitals? Those would be
perhaps nicer ways of relieving your need. Or do
they have to be little girls? So I worry.
> But I'm no threat. Unless you count honesty as threatening. Some women
> honestly like being tied up.
Obviously, if there are women who enter into jobs
such as SM model, SM porn actress, or SM image
club worker, by choice.
> And many young Japanese girls who have
> seen exhibits of Trevor Brown's work honestly say it is "cute".
Well, people are saying ladies' comics are more
graphic than what I see.
> Do you worry about them?
Yep.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> She criticizes the style: "Too sloppy, difficult to read, weak
> storyline..."
Well, that's porn. If it's nasty, it doesn't have to
be good. Suddenly, I remember an adult novel a
friend lent me in high school: Prudish virgin
(always upset by antics of horny roommate and
her boyfriend) takes drive to Ozarks where she is
abducted and kept in a barn by incestuous
hillbilly family who also screw their pet deer.
She turns to the idiot overgrown, overendowed son
for protection, later finding satisfaction with a
"real man" when she learns to enjoy him raping
her. The son eventually kills his own parents, and
they escape in the woman's car (man under a
blanket in the back, with the female deer). Back
home, she keeps him as her personal sex slave and
humiliates her roommate and her average endowed
boyfriend. The End.
[Hmm. I originally recounted this as an example
of poor literature, but actually, it is more
involved than most porn I've seen.]
> The lurid content itself? Doesn't faze her.
What does your wife think of live action videos?
> Didn't faze
> the young girl at the cash register either when I asked if Comic Amour
> was actually a manga for women: She just picked it up, casually leafed
> through it, and said, "yes, women read this". I should mention I live
> in a small town in Kyushu and bought it at an ordinary bookstore.
So you mean YOU are the buyer?
This employee is more mature and professional
than ones I know. When I used to be an otaku, I
used to be embarrassed buying "Sailor Moon" and
other shoujo manga from female cashiers. Forget
renting adult videos or buying porn. The adult
stuff I've rented or bought come from stores with
male cashiers, preferably in another part of
town.
> > Do women do snuff, too?
>
> Not sure. My wife only really reads these things if we find one that
> looks interesting in the magazine pile on paper trash pick-up day.
So YOU are the one buying or keeping this stuff?
Philip Brown
>....
>> I am not against depictions of any acts.
>
>If you are referring to *fiction*, or say, comic
>books not using pictures of real people, there is
>nothing I can say against that. But let me remind
>you in the case of child porn, I am referring to
>actual abuse.
For discussions sake, what is your opinion on the following:
Consider that "final fantasy VIII" has fairly "real" looking people. Now
consider that at some point, "child pornographers" will use that techology.
It will look 99% real. (that is to say, as real as many "hollywood" movies).
You have nothing against this, since no actual child was abused?
--
[Trim the no-bots from my address to reply to me by email!]
[ Do NOT email-CC me on posts. Pick one or the other.]
--------------------------------------------------
The word of the day is sescaquintillion
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > She criticizes the style: "Too sloppy, difficult to read, weak
> > storyline..."
>
> Well, that's porn. If it's nasty, it doesn't have to
> be good. Suddenly, I remember an adult novel a
> friend lent me in high school:
[snipped story]
> [Hmm. I originally recounted this as an example
> of poor literature, but actually, it is more
> involved than most porn I've seen.]
Actually, it sounds halfway interesting. Idiot man-boy with his "deer"
love under a blanket in car trunk -- think this is based on a true
story, Richard?
>
> > The lurid content itself? Doesn't faze her.
>
> What does your wife think of live action videos?
We walk through the aisles of the "for sale only" porno section at our
favorite used book store occasionally (it has much more outrageous
products than what you see at the rental shop), and she looks them over
with the same curiosity as I do. But like I said, I don't rent porno.
The ones we borrowed from her brother in the past didn't upset her
either -- she seems to enjoy most those peeping tom/hidden camera aimed
up dress ones and any that show actual social phenomena, like Soaplands
or oral sex clubs. What really disgusts her is seeing a Japanese man
naked -- she says they are all "nasakenai" ("pathetic").
>
> > Didn't faze
> > the young girl at the cash register either when I asked if Comic Amour
> > was actually a manga for women: She just picked it up, casually leafed
> > through it, and said, "yes, women read this". I should mention I live
> > in a small town in Kyushu and bought it at an ordinary bookstore.
>
> So you mean YOU are the buyer?
I bought it for discussion in this thread.
>
> This employee is more mature and professional
> than ones I know.
Maybe, but I think her reaction is fairly typical. Look, these Lady's
Comics are displayed on the shelf right next to the playful and romantic
comics and fashion magazines, where young girls often stand and read.
No one seems embarrassed that porno manga are right there, ready to be
picked up.
> > > Do women do snuff, too?
> >
> > Not sure. My wife only really reads these things if we find one that
> > looks interesting in the magazine pile on paper trash pick-up day.
>
> So YOU are the one buying or keeping this stuff?
You're joking, right? I have a Japanese wife that offers herself in
her high-school uniform to me. I don't need to buy dirty comics.
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > Imperfection and fragility are highly valued qualities for me. My
> > fascination for bodily injury is just an extension of this aesthetic.
>
> Do you watch "ER," war movies, real fighting
> videos, or hang around hospitals? Those would be
> perhaps nicer ways of relieving your need. Or do
> they have to be little girls? So I worry.
I don't get off on little girls, injured or otherwise. Trevor Brown's
work is simultaneously sweet and sinister, and I think he pulls off that
balancing act well. I like grown women. If she happens to have a
sprained ankle...well, I like her even more. It's the contrast I like:
A flaw on an otherwise pristine female body. Has to come about by
natural or accidental causes, though -- force and cruelty are not for
me.
> > And many young Japanese girls who have
> > seen exhibits of Trevor Brown's work honestly say it is "cute".
>
> Well, people are saying ladies' comics are more
> graphic than what I see.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
> > Do you worry about them?
>
> Yep.
Why?
--gary
Prince Richard Kaminski
gary wrote:
> What really disgusts her is seeing a Japanese man
> naked -- she says they are all "nasakenai" ("pathetic").
Your Japanese wife finds Japanese men repulsive? This is symptomatic of
gaijinphilia and reminds me very much of your own comment that the
"cleanest Caucausian woman is dirtier than the dirtiest Japanese woman"
(or words to that effect).
Sounds like the pair of you are well suited.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> For discussions sake, what is your opinion on the following:
>
> Consider that "final fantasy VIII" has fairly "real" looking people. Now
> consider that at some point, "child pornographers" will use that techology.
As there are a number of Japanese CG books or
computer "how to" books on how to create 3D
nudes in the bookstores, I'm sure there already is
virtual child porn.
> It will look 99% real. (that is to say, as real as many "hollywood" movies).
> You have nothing against this, since no actual child was abused?
You will note I was speaking to this particular
man, saying I could not criticize his position that
he has nothing against "depiction" (his usage) of
anything. That's his opinion.
If you will read my posts with my general
comments, you will note I am against extreme
manga, etc., as well, despite real people not being
abused, because I find those images offensive as
well. "Sad," "sick," "seriously disturbed" were
among terms used to describe them, the "artists"
who produce them, and the people who enjoy them.
If you followed the URL I posted,
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/pgs/yaman/
child.htm
(as this person seems to be a civil liberties
attorney, I will not copy the text) you would note
that the UK even bans "pseudo" porn. The US law
is more ambiguous, though it has been upheld.
Those laws have teeth. In Japan, images are
perfectly allowable.
And you would note from my posts I consider
Japanese law inferior.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> It's the contrast I like:
> A flaw on an otherwise pristine female body. Has to come about by
> natural or accidental causes, though -- force and cruelty are not for
> me.
Any "special" feeling I have for injured or
disabled people is because I'd like to help if I
could.
> > Well, people are saying ladies' comics are more
> > graphic than what I see.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here.
They've found scat, etc., I haven't seen.
> > > Do you worry about them?
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Why?
I worry about them, the same way I'd worry about
men who enjoy such images. Perhaps even more,
because these women enjoy it, despite being the
ones being exploited in the images or by society.
Women's "rape fantasy," or how many choose to
appear in porn, sell their bodies, etc., is
miscontrued to mean that they or other women,
want it to happen. Thus, the men's porn where
women "learn" to enjoy abuse or domination, the
sexual awakening type porn, the widely repeated
"no means yes," and other perversions.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Actually, it sounds halfway interesting.
When I was a horny 15 year old, it was. I don't
expect plot, character development, etc., from
porn. But the women better look good.
> We walk through the aisles of the "for sale only" porno section at our
> favorite used book store occasionally (it has much more outrageous
> products than what you see at the rental shop),
Are there child rape videos?
> and she looks them over
> with the same curiosity as I do.
My wife likes seeing my porn. "Wow!" "Kyaa!
Etchi!"
> But like I said, I don't rent porno.
> The ones we borrowed from her brother in the past didn't upset her
> either -- she seems to enjoy most those peeping tom/hidden camera aimed
> up dress ones and any that show actual social phenomena, like Soaplands
If I'm watching porn, I prefer cute, famous porn
stars to everyday people. It's fantasy.
> or oral sex clubs. What really disgusts her is seeing a Japanese man
> naked -- she says they are all "nasakenai" ("pathetic").
Then she's lucky she married gaijin. Or was that
her aim?
> Maybe, but I think her reaction is fairly typical.
Stick around to see if she has anything to whisper
to her coworkers about people with porn. Carry it
unwrapped under your arm down the street. Leave
it on your desk at work. Show your in-laws. Find
out how typical her nonchalant reaction is.
> Look, these Lady's
> Comics are displayed on the shelf right next to the playful and romantic
> comics and fashion magazines, where young girls often stand and read.
Yep.
> No one seems embarrassed that porno manga are right there, ready to be
> picked up.
Only the PTA, women's activists, female
legislators, or others you might read about in the
news. You know, the few people willing to do
something to get rid of porn.
> You're joking, right? I have a Japanese wife that offers herself in
> her high-school uniform to me. I don't need to buy dirty comics.
How long can that last?
gary
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote:
>
> gary wrote:
>
> > What really disgusts her is seeing a Japanese man
> > naked -- she says they are all "nasakenai" ("pathetic").
>
> Your Japanese wife finds Japanese men repulsive?
I gave you her exact word, and I even translated it for you. Where did
you come up with "repulsive"? Presumption from your own experience with
naked Japanese men?
> This is symptomatic of
> gaijinphilia
What's Latin for "gaijin"? Don, please don't tell me it's "gaijin".
> and reminds me very much of your own comment that the
> "cleanest Caucausian woman is dirtier than the dirtiest Japanese woman"
> (or words to that effect).
Speaking of women, I am reminded of your comment that men have an
instinctual urge to rape women (or words to that effect).
> Sounds like the pair of you are well suited.
Married 11 wonderful years. And she still has the charm of a
high-school girl.
--gary
Francois JACQUES
> >books not using pictures of real people, there is
> >nothing I can say against that. But let me remind
> >you in the case of child porn, I am referring to
> >actual abuse.
>
>
>
> Consider that "final fantasy VIII" has fairly "real" looking people. Now
> consider that at some point, "child pornographers" will use that techology.
> You have nothing against this, since no actual child was abused?
I'm not sure that child pornographers could afford the technology that
Square is using to make his games !!
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> > We walk through the aisles of the "for sale only" porno section at our
> > favorite used book store occasionally (it has much more outrageous
> > products than what you see at the rental shop),
>
> Are there child rape videos?
I've seen pre-pubescent (there's a katakana word for the genre, but I
forgot it) modeling videos that seem to be footage of a solitary girl
in a variety of poses, more or less like a moving Alice Club photo
shoot. But nothing with sex or rape of children. But high-school girl
sex videos are there.
> > No one seems embarrassed that porno manga are right there, ready to be
> > picked up.
>
> Only the PTA, women's activists, female
> legislators, or others you might read about in the
> news. You know, the few people willing to do
> something to get rid of porn.
But you know what I mean. Put a Lady's Comic like the one I described
on the shelf next to Seventeen and other girl magazines in a US mall
B.Dalton, and how long do you think it would take before a parent
stormed up to the counter in outrage? I've yet to see that kind of a
scene in my small town bookstore here in Japan. Why?
> > You're joking, right? I have a Japanese wife that offers herself in
> > her high-school uniform to me. I don't need to buy dirty comics.
>
> How long can that last?
High-school uniforms are already out of fashion -- it's been a couple
years actually since she's put it on. Now I'm really into having her
wear womanly, solid-color skirts and ribbed tops, and calling her
"okusan", as if I were a stranger.
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> My wife likes seeing my porn. "Wow!" "Kyaa!
> Etchi!"
That word right there sums up the Japanese attitude toward sex: Etchi.
I dare you to come up with an English equivalent that carries the same
feeling of lightness and delight, with no trace or prurience.
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
>
> I worry about them, the same way I'd worry about
> men who enjoy such images. Perhaps even more,
> because these women enjoy it, despite being the
> ones being exploited in the images or by society.
Are women sexual beings? Do they have the capacity to enjoy sexual
fantasy? Or do they need to be protected from their own imaginations?
> Women's "rape fantasy," or how many choose to
> appear in porn, sell their bodies, etc., is
> miscontrued to mean that they or other women,
> want it to happen.
> Thus, the men's porn where
> women "learn" to enjoy abuse or domination, the
> sexual awakening type porn, the widely repeated
> "no means yes," and other perversions.
You said it -- "misconstrued". Delusional thinking in the minds of some
idiots is the problem, not pornography itself. What about the rest of
us who can swallow it without spitting up something ugly? Here is an
actual exchange me and my wife had last night:
me: Can I rape you?
wife: Only if you ask first.
There. I've shared this little bit of true life here in a public
forum. Maybe some lurker reading this thread is now convinced Japanese
women like to be raped. The subtlety of my wife's meaning is lost on
him. But who are you going to condemn -- my wife for saying it, me for
sharing it, or the idiot for misinterpreting it?
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Are women sexual beings? Do they have the capacity to enjoy sexual
> fantasy?
Yes.
> Or do they need to be protected from their own imaginations?
Women need to be protected from scum, not
themselves.
> You said it -- "misconstrued". Delusional thinking in the minds of some
> idiots is the problem, not pornography itself.
Are you one of the total freedom advocates, too?
> What about the rest of
> us who can swallow it without spitting up something ugly?
Just because there are those who tolerate or enjoy
it, does not mean everyone else needs to be
exposed to it.
> Here is an
> actual exchange me and my wife had last night:
>
> me: Can I rape you?
> wife: Only if you ask first.
And do you or your wife also fantasize about the
action you see in those comics, or in those
videos?
> who are you going to condemn -- my wife for saying it, me for
> sharing it, or the idiot for misinterpreting it?
It sounds like the word "rape" is being
misunderstood and misused. I know people who
could tell you what it is.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> nothing with sex or rape of children.
Then "your" bookstore is not like the ones here,
and you don't see the ads for the very same child
rape videos in "ordinary" adult magazines.
> how long do you think it would take before a parent
> stormed up to the counter in outrage? I've yet to see that kind of a
You think that way, because you forget the decades
it took for women to get that kind of mentality or
power in the US for example, and assume such
porn will suddenly (re)appear after it has
already been restricted. Only in recent years,
decades after the women's movement, has Seven-
Eleven in the US gotten rid of Playboy and
Penthouse. Only in recent years have other stores
put adult materials onto upper shelves out of
reach of children, or wrapped in plastic, so
people can't see the cover photos, or browse. Porn
is not as accessible as in Japan.
> scene in my small town bookstore here in Japan. Why?
Because Japanese are not as inclined as people
back home to get involved. Because women's place
in Japanese society is lower than back home;
because the Japanese women's movement, by their
own reckoning, and in the opinion of the NOW
president who visited recently, is decades behind
the US; and because they don't believe they can do
anything real about it.
Do you recall the Tokyo sit-in planned by a
Japanese woman's group to demonstrate how
important their domestic duties are? Do you
recall how reporters asked female passersby if
they were interested in joining, only to
unanimously be told things like, no, because I
have to go home to cook for my husband? You see
women clamoring for greater rights like back
home? You see women protesting the lax rape law,
or non existant marital rape law, as discussed by
the female attorney activist Tsunoda? You think it
is because Japanese women LIKE it the way it is?
On another theme: a few months ago, some right
winger died in police custody in Okayama. The
result was DOZENS of black or white sound trucks
and full sized buses emblazoned with the military
Japanese flag and Imperial seal, spouting
propaganda and blaring the Kimigayo and other
music. The result was utter chaos for that small
town. People were even afraid to send their
children to school.
It would have been an easy matter to stop the right
wingers: set up roadblocks, pull over the easily
identified vehicles on sight, or let armed riot
police or the Self-Defense Forces take them. The
people of that town also vastly outnumbered the
right wingers. Armed with rocks, hand tools or
household implements, the people could have
routed them. With icepicks and screwdrivers,
they could have disabled every single one of the
vehicles and tarred and feathered the right
wingers as they attempted to flee. But the police
and townspeople stood idly by, as the right
wingers ruled the town for as long as the news ran
the story. Why? Were they all just afraid? Did
they just not want a scene? Or do they LIKE the
right wing message?
> Now I'm really into having her
> wear womanly, solid-color skirts and ribbed tops, and calling her
> "okusan", as if I were a stranger.
Much, much better, and more sustainable. Sailor
suit fantasies would probably get pretty stale
when the woman starts gaining weight or showing
wrinkles, for example. A man, on the other hand,
can act like a horny lech till death.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> That word right there sums up the Japanese attitude toward sex: Etchi.
> I dare you to come up with an English equivalent that carries the same
> feeling of lightness and delight, with no trace or prurience.
Lech.
Tony
gary
"Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
>
> gary wrote:
> >
> > That word right there sums up the Japanese attitude toward sex: Etchi.
> > I dare you to come up with an English equivalent that carries the same
> > feeling of lightness and delight, with no trace of prurience.
>
> Lech.
>
Sounds pretty disagreeable to me. Isn't "lechery" a crime designation?
Also, definite male gender-bias. But I can imaging this ad copy for a
Hello Kitty vibrator:
"Anata no etchi na kibun...kitty-chan ni makasete..."
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > nothing with sex or rape of children.
>
> Then "your" bookstore is not like the ones here,
> and you don't see the ads for the very same child
> rape videos in "ordinary" adult magazines.
>
I've seen child sex video ads, but no actual product. You've seen ads
that offer child rape videos? Pre-pubescent? Rape of any sort is
abhorrent. But child rape? Jesus.
> > how long do you think it would take before a parent
> > stormed up to the counter in outrage? I've yet to see that kind of a
> > scene in my small town bookstore here in Japan. Why?
>
>
> You think that way, because you forget the decades
> it took for women to get that kind of mentality or
> power in the US
[snip]
> Because Japanese are not as inclined as people
> back home to get involved. Because women's place
> in Japanese society is lower than back home;
> because the Japanese women's movement, by their
> own reckoning, and in the opinion of the NOW
> president who visited recently, is decades behind
> the US; and because they don't believe they can do
> anything real about it.
I asked about the indifference of Japanese parents to Ladies' Comics
being openly displayed on the young girl's shelf. You chalk it up to
the struggles women still face in Japanese society. But this oppressed
women vs. empowered men explanation is an oversimplification, in my
opinion. Here is my wife's penetrating analysis:
"Ladies' Comics are for housewives. That's who buy them. That's what
they are there for."
And here are the thoughts of a 25-year-old mother of two at our company:
"Men have them, so why shouldn't women? I've read them together with my
friends before, and we laugh at the impossible things they show. What
about when my children get older? As long as they just look -- but
getting pregnant is a no-no"
An older mother in her mid-40's:
"My children don't read those kind, at least not at home. Still, even
TV dramas have gotten very explicit lately. But sex things are
difficult to discuss, and sometimes those manga are better than learning
from parents."
Even older mother with fully grown children:
"I'm kind of embarrassed about those manga -- we didn't have anything
like that when I was young. Am I against them? No, no. Better than
hiding them and having children look at them in secret."
One unmarried young woman in her late twenties was very opposed to
Ladies' Comics. She said she thinks sex crimes will increase because of
them. I should note she is a Jehovah's Witness, and (according to my
wife) still a virgin.
Now these are just the views of a few women at our company, and so
hardly representative of all Japan. But are they all anomalies? I
doubt it. This is hard to describe to those who have never been to
Japan, but there just isn't that palpable sense of shock, shame, and
embarrassment hanging over the porno racks in Japanese bookstores that
you feel in the US. You can call it apathy, but I say it's something
else: The Japanese are, for the most part, unaffected by pornography.
Not numbed, not stoic, not hardened...just unaffected. Say what you will
about progress in the women's movement, but in terms of attitudes about
pornography, it's the US that has catching up to do.
>
> > Now I'm really into having her
> > wear womanly, solid-color skirts and ribbed tops, and calling her
> > "okusan", as if I were a stranger.
>
> Much, much better, and more sustainable. Sailor
> suit fantasies would probably get pretty stale
> when the woman starts gaining weight or showing
> wrinkles, for example.
Oh, I'll probably have her put it back on when she gets into her 40's --
that is actually much more exciting to me than a genuine high-school
girl. And don't worry about it not fitting. She was one of them plump,
baby-fat girls in high school, and so now her uniform is a little loose.
> A man, on the other hand,
> can act like a horny lech till death.
Umm...does this mean I won't need Viagra?
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> >
> > Eric:
> > I worry about them, the same way I'd worry about
> > men who enjoy such images. Perhaps even more,
> > because these women enjoy it, despite being the
> > ones being exploited in the images or by society.
>
> > Are women sexual beings? Do they have the capacity to enjoy sexual
> > fantasy?
>
> Yes.
Then they are capable of deciding whether the comic books and
illustrations they enjoy are exploiting them or not. You want to
empower women? Then let them choose.
>
> > Or do they need to be protected from their own imaginations?
>
> Women need to be protected from scum, not
> themselves.
Scum are rapists and child molesters. Find one, and I will gladly stand
by your side on the firing line, shotgun aimed at the convict's
crotch. But until they do the deed, writers, illustrators,
photographers, and actors are not scum.
> > You said it -- "misconstrued". Delusional thinking in the minds of some
> > idiots is the problem, not pornography itself.
>
> Are you one of the total freedom advocates, too?
I don't even think about that deeply. It's simple: Words and images do
not injure, so why suppress them?
>
> > What about the rest of
> > us who can swallow it without spitting up something ugly?
>
> Just because there are those who tolerate or enjoy
> it, does not mean everyone else needs to be
> exposed to it.
So what is your ideal solution to access of pornography in Japan,
assuming you think it all shouldn't be banned outright? The Comic Amour
I mentioned is read by women in their twenties and thirties. Where and
how should it be sold?
> > Here is an
> > actual exchange me and my wife had last night:
> >
> > me: Can I rape you?
> > wife: Only if you ask first.
>
> And do you or your wife also fantasize about the
> action you see in those comics, or in those
> videos?
Goodness, now you're starting to worry me, Eric. Are you suggesting
_thoughts_ are dangerous too? How about dreams -- they aren't really
under one's control, so are they expressible?
> > who are you going to condemn -- my wife for saying it, me for
> > sharing it, or the idiot for misinterpreting it?
>
> It sounds like the word "rape" is being
> misunderstood and misused. I know people who
> could tell you what it is.
What's most important is knowing what it is not: Words and images.
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Then they are capable of deciding whether the comic books and
> illustrations they enjoy are exploiting them or not. You want to
> empower women? Then let them choose.
By this reasoning, do modern Japanese women
"choose" to be treated the way they are, and
occupy their current place in society? Or is
something holding them back? Or do they not know
any better? Or are they too powerless to even
speak out?
> Scum are rapists and child molesters.
Those are the kind of scum I am referring to. I did
not call the people of the porn industry scum,
except in specific cases, as those criminals who
make the child rape videos which you do not seem
to know about. I even called some "artists"
"seriously talented," if not for the nature of their
work.
> I don't even think about that deeply. It's simple: Words and images do
> not injure, so why suppress them?
I am not one of those that believes ordinary people
are turned into criminals by exposure to violent
or sexual media. But if one is raised in an
environment where women are treated and
depicted as they are, what will people think about
them? (Did you take note of women's activist/
attorney Tsunoda, who writes that the Western
concepts of rape, marital rape and domestic
violence do not apply in Japan, thus there may not
be laws against them, or be tremendously difficult
to prosecute? (She's never won a rape case.))
What will even women think about themselves in
such an environment? What may happen to
women's self-esteem? Did you see the recent post
or follow that link to what Japanese women aspire
to?
From BDunn, on 22 Apr 99:
[sorry, had to change the format to fit my column
width]
What kind of career do you want for the future?
Ideal (Gensou):
Entertainment Industry (TV, film, music) 22.7%
Store clerk / Saleswoman -- 19.3%
Homemaker (Sengyou shufu) -- 8.4%
Make-up Artist -- 6.7%
Housewife (Shufu) -- 5.9%
Woman Company President (Onna Shachou) 4.2%
Career Woman (Kyaria U-man) -- 3.4%
Beautician / Hairdresser (Biyoushi) -- 2.5%
Other -- 26.9%
Reality (Genjitsu):
'Permanent Part-timer' (Furiitaa puu) 23.2%
Part-time job (Paato) -- 17%
Housewife (Shufu) -- 13.4%
Office Lady / Secretary (Futsuu no OL) -- 8%
Bar / Hostess (Mizushoubai) -- 7.1%
Store clerk / Saleswoman -- 3.6%
Take over family business -- 3.6%
Nail artist -- 2.7%
Other -- 21.4%
Even before I saw this, I thought that it seemed
kind of hopeless for women in Japan, as far as
getting a good job. Besides teaching or OL, there
may not be a whole lot out there for girls to look
forward to, especially since it seems to be so hard
for _anyone_ to find work.
And I don't think it's always prostitution, either.
Here is a quote from an article on Masato Harada,
director of 'Bounce Ko Gals' (http://
www.pdci.co.jp/BOUNCE/) from an article on the
movie, Kogals, and Harada's position on the whole
subject (http://www.pathfinder.com/asiaweek/
current/issue/feat_1_cinema.html -- copyright
Asiaweek).
[end]
I know from years of firsthand experience that
many Japanese young women lack ambition. I
know many who are out of work, or not even
looking for work. Many of them explicitly say
they do not even WANT to work, but want to get
married right out of college (despite not even
having boyfriends yet!), or drop their careers
when they get married or have children.
Where the hell are the women like back home,
who want to be doctors, nurses, police officers,
firefighters, flight attendants, attorneys, CPAs,
or any other professionals, kids or no kids? These
Japanese women do not even DREAM of doing that
kind of work. Even more grim is what they think
they will REALLY become: they KNOW they will
probably turn out as part time workers,
housewives, or OLs, no matter how hard they try,
or what they achieve. In the US, more women than
men attend university (the four year kind, not
these "junior" colleges or "women's" schools, like
most Japanese women do), and by my experience
at least, are just as intelligent, ambitious and
hardworking as the men. Do 7% of American girls
actually think they want to be bar hostesses?
Jesus.
> So what is your ideal solution to access of pornography in Japan,
> assuming you think it all shouldn't be banned outright? The Comic Amour
> I mentioned is read by women in their twenties and thirties. Where and
> how should it be sold?
Treat porn the way the US treats its porn, for
example: at least TRY to keep it out of the hands of
children, preferably even where they cannot see
it. Outlaw child porn outright, including "pseudo"
porn (images), as the UK does. Send offenders,
those who possess or produce child porn, to jail
for years, as is mandated by US law. Create laws
against "obscenity" and "indecency," as exist in
the US or UK. Why should who reads it make a
difference?
> Goodness, now you're starting to worry me, Eric. Are you suggesting
> _thoughts_ are dangerous too?
Depends on the thoughts. Are they overly
obsessive like those of a stalker, or anything like
those of a psychotic? Those idiots in Colorado may
have been stopped, if someone had taken notice of
them in time. Ditto serial killers like the Kobe
killer, child molesters, and other scum. Some
people want to find and treat these scum. I'd
rather have them killed.
> How about dreams -- they aren't really
> under one's control, so are they expressible?
I don't know how to actively control one's dreams,
so no.
> > It sounds like the word "rape" is being
> > misunderstood and misused. I know people who
> > could tell you what it is.
>
> What's most important is knowing what it is not: Words and images.
I do not know what this has to do with your asking
your wife permission to "rape" her and your
wife's approval to be "raped" if you ask.
What's most important when referring to "rape"
is being sensitive to victims, whom you may
know, and not jest about such things. A few weeks
ago, some English teacher friends of mine
discovered in conversation how Japanese women
we know are suffering in secret. I've known
others. In the US, it is said up to one out of three
women have been sexually assaulted. I don't make
light of rape, as the Japanese "rape contract"
videos do, or engage in the actual practice of "soft
rape." (It is acceptable for jailed scum to be
abused and sodomized, however.)
--
Jeff Schrepfer
care of your 'naughty' desires." or "Johnny you're so naughty."
Jeff
--
=[]= You have received a message from:
||
|| ________________
__||__ | |
/ || \ | Jeff Schrepfer |
\ / |________________|
/ () \
/ __ \
\ / Email: Je...@Schrepfer.com
\______/ Homepage: http://www.Schrepfer.com
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> I've seen child sex video ads, but no actual product. You've seen ads
> that offer child rape videos? Pre-pubescent?
On the shelf, as I described. With photos of the act.
No, I don't want to watch a video of a man abusing
a child explicitly described as being in pain, only
able to force himself halfway in, then "pistoning"
her.
> Rape of any sort is
> abhorrent. But child rape? Jesus.
Now are you willing to believe that some things do
not deserve to exist, or that some people are
diseased mofos and criminals? I wonder what the
(former) children think about the proliferation
of porn, or the thoughts of the men which created
such porn and abused and exploited them for their
own gain? I certainly do not see any of them
protesting porn today. Is any fool going to imply
they liked it, approve, or don't care?
> I asked about the indifference of Japanese parents to Ladies' Comics
> being openly displayed on the young girl's shelf. You chalk it up to
> the struggles women still face in Japanese society. But this oppressed
> women vs. empowered men explanation is an oversimplification, in my
> opinion. Here is my wife's penetrating analysis:
[and numerous others]
What I seem to get is one woman thinks ladies'
porn is a joke. Another thinks of it as equal
opportunity for women. Another thinks of it as
sex education for kids. Ho-kay.
And what of other women, like the Jehovah's
Witness, or other conservative or prudish
people? They just have to live with porn, because
others like it, or are indifferent to it, the way
Japanese people live with underage prostitution,
pedophilia, litter, piss in the street, sound
trucks, or cigarette smoke?
> Say what you will
> about progress in the women's movement, but in terms of attitudes about
> pornography, it's the US that has catching up to do.
And you can say what you will about greater
openness (Seward and De Mente have written
about this) or whatever allows Japanese to deal
frankly with and porn, but in terms of attitudes
about empowerment of women, it's Japan that has
catching up to do. Around the world, women are
being exploited or abused, who do not realize they
don't have to live that way. On the other hand, are
the Japanese female legislators of the 1950s who
acted to restrict porn, and the legal prohibition
(HA HA) of prostitution. Thus, the actions of the
PTA or current lawmakers to try to actually
outlaw porn, to criminalize frequenting underage
whores, and keep sex establishments and
advertisements away from schools, for example.
So what DO your wife and the other ladies comics
advocates have to say about the position of women
in Japanese society? Is that ok, too?
> Oh, I'll probably have her put it back on when she gets into her 40's --
> that is actually much more exciting to me than a genuine high-school
> girl. And don't worry about it not fitting. She was one of them plump,
> baby-fat girls in high school, and so now her uniform is a little loose.
Good for you, and fortunate for her. But girls'
school uniforms look best on the girls they were
intended for. The same way designer fashion looks
best on models, rich people or celebrities, not
high school girls.
> Umm...does this mean I won't need Viagra?
Depends on you.
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Sounds pretty disagreeable to me. Isn't "lechery" a crime designation?
> Also, definite male gender-bias. But I can imaging this ad copy for a
> Hello Kitty vibrator:
>
> "Anata no etchi na kibun...kitty-chan ni makasete..."
Not really. It's no worse than etchi. "Bob is such a lech..."
And lechery isn't a crime definition because it doesn't define or
describe an activity. It's the meaningless vagueness that makes it such
a great word. <G>
Tony
gary
Jeff Schrepfer wrote:
>
> How about the word naughty used in the proper context. "Let kitty take
> care of your 'naughty' desires." or "Johnny you're so naughty."
"Naughty" comes close to capturing the mood of "etchi". But still,
naughty suggests "bad" or even "guilty" -- however so slight -- that is
absent in "etchi", don't you agree? It is this spirit of innocence and
naturalness that makes "etchi" distinctive. How about an equivalent in
another language, French perhaps?
--gary
Jeff Schrepfer
English are?) but I think that etchi does carry a very slight air of
disapproval equivalent to naughty. Etymology doesn't really help here
because naughty can be used in reprimanding children for nonsexual
offenses and in such a context can carry a strong tone of disapproval.
Etchi on the other hand comes from the first letter in the word 'hentai'
which is also a word which carries a much stronger sense of disapproval
than simply saying 'etchi.' But I think that the words both carry very
similar notions of slight disapproval while also conveying a sense of
innocence or naturalness in the behavior in question. I'm just not so
sure that the word 'etchi' carries with it the connotation of
'innocence' or 'naturalness' that you suggest. For example, I don't
think most young boys would be very comfortable being called 'etchi.'
--
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > Then they are capable of deciding whether the comic books and
> > illustrations they enjoy are exploiting them or not. You want to
> > empower women? Then let them choose.
>
> By this reasoning, do modern Japanese women
> "choose" to be treated the way they are, and
> occupy their current place in society? Or is
> something holding them back? Or do they not know
> any better? Or are they too powerless to even
> speak out?
Feminism is not necessarily incompatible with pornography. Check out
this brief history of pornography and feminist thought:
http://www.freeinquirynetwork.com/FeministDefense.html
>
> > I don't even think about it that deeply. It's simple: Words and images > > do not injure, so why suppress them?
>
> I am not one of those that believes ordinary people
> are turned into criminals by exposure to violent
> or sexual media. But if one is raised in an
> environment where women are treated and
> depicted as they are, what will people think about
> them?
I've seen gay porn that shows a man tied up and hung from the ceiling
with another man's fist up his ass. Is he being mistreated? How can
you tell? It's very tempting to read into pornography all the evils and
injustice of the society that surrounds it. But sometimes that
interpretation may not be correct. Sometimes sex is just sex.
[snipped plight of Japanese women in the workplace]
I'll check out these links tonight when I'm online. But this is
drifting a bit from the original topic.
> > So what is your ideal solution to access of pornography in Japan,
> > assuming you think it all shouldn't be banned outright? The Comic Amour
> > I mentioned is read by women in their twenties and thirties. Where and
> > how should it be sold?
>
> Treat porn the way the US treats its porn, for
> example: at least TRY to keep it out of the hands of
> children, preferably even where they cannot see
> it.
Again, I quote my all-knowing wife: "Children don't look at those
things. They aren't interested." She does have a way of cutting to the
heart of the matter, doesn't she.
> Outlaw child porn outright, including "pseudo"
> porn (images), as the UK does. Send offenders,
> those who possess or produce child porn, to jail
> for years, as is mandated by US law. Create laws
> against "obscenity" and "indecency," as exist in
> the US or UK.
According to the link you gave a couple posts back, computer created
pseudo-porn (digitally grafting images of children's heads to adult
actor's bodies) is illegal in the US. Ignoring the repugnant nature of
such porn, it is still quite easy to produce it without ever having
children even remove their clothes, without children even seeing a naked
body. Even using adult actors that "look like" children and marketing
it as pornography would fall under this ruling. And if I remember
correctly, Trevor Brown's airbrushed illustrations of naked little girl
dolls are also outlawed in his native UK. And I doubt Japanese Ladies'
Comics would pass muster either. How do these laws protect the
well-being of children directly? They don't. Their purpose is to avoid
whetting the appetite of those who may find children sexually exciting.
Pedophilia is horrible, but I'm not willing to give up freedom of
expression in an effort to ban every image that is potentially arousing
to a few deviant men.
Interesting aside: Would US/UK crusaders against child porn allow TV
bath salts commercials in Japan which show "father" and "son" actors in
the tub together? Would they seek to prohibit Japanese communal baths
where men and boys bathe together?
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> > I asked about the indifference of Japanese parents to Ladies' Comics
> > being openly displayed on the young girl's shelf. You chalk it up to
> > the struggles women still face in Japanese society. But this oppressed
> > women vs. empowered men explanation is an oversimplification, in my
> > opinion. Here is my wife's penetrating analysis:
>
> [and numerous others]
>
> What I seem to get is one woman thinks ladies'
> porn is a joke. Another thinks of it as equal
> opportunity for women. Another thinks of it as
> sex education for kids. Ho-kay.
Eric, you and I have both lived in Japan long enough to know that such
views among Japanese women are not uncommon. Some may not like it, but
most simply don't perceive it as a threat.
>
> And what of other women, like the Jehovah's
> Witness, or other conservative or prudish
> people? They just have to live with porn, because
> others like it, or are indifferent to it, the way
> Japanese people live with underage prostitution,
> pedophilia, litter, piss in the street, sound
> trucks, or cigarette smoke?
Live with porn just like you live with the other books and videos on the
shelf.
>
> > Say what you will
> > about progress in the women's movement, but in terms of attitudes about
> > pornography, it's the US that has catching up to do.
>
> And you can say what you will about greater
> openness (Seward and De Mente have written
> about this) or whatever allows Japanese to deal
> frankly with and porn, but in terms of attitudes
> about empowerment of women, it's Japan that has
> catching up to do.[snip]
> So what DO your wife and the other ladies comics
> advocates have to say about the position of women
> in Japanese society? Is that ok, too?
It's not ok. I don't deny that. But it is a separate issue. Some
Western feminists would even say unrelated.
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Feminism is not necessarily incompatible with pornography. Check out
> this brief history of pornography and feminist thought:
>
> http://www.freeinquirynetwork.com/FeministDefense.html
Indeed. Please read. Particularly how she begins
her piece (which wholeheartedly defends porn or
the sex industry), because she KNOWS how most
would not agree, or how heated the debate
becomes, even amongst "feminists." Also note that
the many cites she includes, do NOT agree with
her views:
A Feminist Defense of Pornography
by Wendy McElroy
"Pornography benefits women, both personally
and politically." This sentence opens my book
XXX: A Woman's Right to Pornography, and it
constitutes a more extreme defense of
pornography than most feminists are comfortable
with. I arrived at this position after years of
interviewing hundreds of sex workers.
Feminist Positions
Feminist positions on pornography currently
break down into three rough categories. The
most common one - at least, in academia - is that
pornography is an expression of male culture
through which women are commodified and
exploited. A second view, the liberal position,
combines a respect for free speech with the
principle "a woman's body, a woman's right" and
thus produces a defense of pornography along the
lines of, "I don't approve of it, but everyone has
the right to consume or produce words and
images." A third view - a true defense of
pornography - arises from feminists who have
been labeled "pro-sex" and who argue that porn
has benefits for women.
Little dialogue occurs between the three positions.
Anti-pornography feminists treat women who
disagree as either brainwashed dupes of
patriarchy or as apologists for pornographers. In
the anthology Sexual Liberals and the Attack on
Feminism (1990), editor Dorchen Leidholdt
claims that feminists who believe women make
their own choices about pornography are
spreading "a felicitous lie" (p. 131). In the same
work, Sheila Jeffreys argues that "pro-sex"
feminists are "eroticizing dominance and
subordination." Wendy Stock accuses free speech
feminists of identifying with their oppressors
"much like ... concentration camp prisoners
with their jailors" (p. 150). Andrea Dworkin
accuses them of running a "sex protection
racket" (p. 136) and maintains that no one who
defends pornography can be a feminist.
The liberal feminists who are personally
uncomfortable with pornography tend to be
intimidated into silence. Those who continue to
speak out, like American Civil Liberties Union
President Nadine Strossen (Defending
Pornography) are ignored. For example,
Catharine MacKinnon has repeatedly refused to
share a stage with Strossen or any woman who
defends porn. "Pro-sex" feminists - many of
whom are current or former sex-workers - often
respond with anger, rather than arguments.
[end quote]
So is she a visionary, a radical, or crackpot
versus the many feminists who disagree with her,
or porn? You choose to support McElroy. I choose
to agree with those who disagree with thoughts
like hers.
In the past few weeks in the Japanese English
dailies was a book review regarding the sex trade
in Thailand. There were people with views like
McElroy's, that it was empowerment of women.
Money sent home from prostitution is literally
the lifeblood of many rural communities, and the
Thai economy was said to be "built on the backs of
women who worked on their backs," or words to
that effect. Prostitutes were called as wealthy or
successful as professional women of high status.
However, of course, prostitutes do NOT enjoy high
status, and they put their bodies and lives at risk.
Strange that these "empowered" women in
southeast Asia or Africa are at the same time
being ravaged by AIDS, and spreading it amongst
their customers and their families.
There are defenders of child porn who also claim
that the girls are doing it of their own free will.
After all, are they not performing, and many
times smiling while doing so? Well, I have seen
bruises and strange scars (say cigarette burn) in
some photos of girls, or in some videos of porn
actresses. No, I do not have the pictures or notes
to prove it to you. Check it out yourself. As for the
smiling, one writer has simply said, they were
asked to.
Children are not mature or intelligent enough to
make the choices adult sex workers make, you
may say? And how do you know the intelligence of
underage girls in child porn or adults in the sex
industry? Perhaps sex workers who choose to do
so ARE stupid or brainwashed, as some believe.
> I've seen gay porn that shows a man tied up and hung from the ceiling
> with another man's fist up his ass.
Ok.
> Is he being mistreated? How can you tell?
Gee, that depends. Was he smiling? Is he enjoying
the material wealth or status of a successful
professional male? Or is he just desperate for
some yen to support a drug habit or keep off the
streets? Or is he a masochist, which practically
by definition, would mean he is NOT being
mistreated? Is his health at risk? Would it harm
him in the general public, if his name and face
were known in connection with his "work?"
> It's very tempting to read into pornography all the evils and
> injustice of the society that surrounds it. But sometimes that
> interpretation may not be correct. Sometimes sex is just sex.
Again, why must nearly everyone be exposed to
other people's fetishes and fixations, as in Japan?
What of the majority of people, even gays (at
university, I once read of a UCLA study revealing
a small proportion of gay males, say 17%,
practiced fisting), who do NOT hang each other
from the ceiling with fists up their anuses, do not
want to, may even find it revolting or against
nature?
> Again, I quote my all-knowing wife: "Children don't look at those
> things. They aren't interested." She does have a way of cutting to the
> heart of the matter, doesn't she.
CHILDREN DO NOT LOOK AT PORN? PLEEEEASE. Is
this from her experience as a mother? Or a school
teacher? Or employee of a bookstore? And what if
*I* tell you that my schoolchildren certainly
have experience with porn, usually off their dads
or older siblings, because they certainly ARE
interested? What if I tell you even Japanese girls
and boys are screwing since elementary school,
including one girl impregnated by her 25 year old
boyfriend? What if I tell you even I have been on
the receiving end of junior high schoolgirl
desire? Do you so easily forget your own
childhood? When did you start looking at porn? I
first viewed porn at my leisure when I was 11.
My friends checked out porn from Cub Scout age.
My classmates BSed each other how babies were
made since I was seven years old. Don't tell me
how Japanese, so beyond the US, so open regarding
sex and porn, are any less interested. Recently,
Japan had to impose a 15 years or older rating for
videos deemed too hot for younger children.
Children are not interested, and do not look at
porn. Come on.
> According to the link you gave a couple posts back, computer created
> pseudo-porn (digitally grafting images of children's heads to adult
> actor's bodies) is illegal in the US.
Also kiddy porn by computer graphics.
> Ignoring the repugnant nature of
> such porn, it is still quite easy to produce it without ever having
So you think this IS wrong?
> children even remove their clothes, without children even seeing a naked
> body.
In the "grafting" method, they certainly would see
naked bodies. And computer graphics can pass for
reality these days, as recent feature films
demonstrate. If it looks good enough to be real, is
presented AS real, what difference would their be
in the effect? I say, none.
> Even using adult actors that "look like" children and marketing
> it as pornography would fall under this ruling.
Punishing and eliminating child porn IS the aim of
this law, yes. If someone wants to promote
themselves as child porn, they'll be treated like
child porn. Duh. [Note that "non-porn" such as
"Romeo and Juliet" are NOT threatened.]
> And if I remember
> correctly, Trevor Brown's airbrushed illustrations of naked little girl
> dolls are also outlawed in his native UK.
Precisely.
> And I doubt Japanese Ladies'
> Comics would pass muster either.
MANY Japanese anime or manga would not/do not
pass American muster. Even children's series
such as Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon suffer
censorship because of nudity, off color jokes,
characters being depicted injured or killed.
Precisely. [Please recall I am NOT offended by
"ordinary" nudity or racy material, and regret
the cartoon censorship for the sake of artistic
integrity (it also screwed up the plot).]
> How do these laws protect the
> well-being of children directly? They don't.
I am not one, but there are those who believe
images directly affect children, even leading them
to do exactly what they see. Many claims are being
made in the wake of the Colorado school shooting
and other incidents. Probably most damning is
this man, whom the media ignores for obvious
reasons:
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aasi/
aasi0102.htm
"Trained to Kill" , by Lt. Col. David Grossman A
military psychologist, expert in training people
to go beyond natural aversion and kill their own
species, analyzes graphically how modern media
uses the same "tools" in training our young people
to kill.
- he lives in Jonesboro, AR - the boys in
Jonesboro fired 27 shots. They hit 15 people
from over 100 yards. One of those boys had never
held a gun before in his life. How did he get so
good?
How do videos, modern media, butcher-flicks all
desensitize and bypass the normal reason against
killing?
[end]
> Their purpose is to avoid
> whetting the appetite of those who may find children sexually exciting.
Also a good reason, and one I would agree with.
> Pedophilia is horrible, but I'm not willing to give up freedom of
> expression in an effort to ban every image that is potentially arousing
> to a few deviant men.
Wait now. You are specifically referring to
pedophilia here. Are you saying that child erotica
SHOULD be ok, in the name of freedom or limited
risk?
> Interesting aside: Would US/UK crusaders against child porn allow TV
> bath salts commercials in Japan which show "father" and "son" actors in
> the tub together? Would they seek to prohibit Japanese communal baths
> where men and boys bathe together?
[Interesting aside: I have yet to see man/boy porn
in Japan. All pedophilia I've seen or heard of is
girl only. Adult gay porn is also relatively rare,
less common than kiddy porn.]
And true fact: according to Jack Seward and/or
Boye DeMente in their writings on Japanese
sexuality, the Christian missionaries of 400
years ago barred Japanese converts from bathing
regularly, because it involved nudity. More
recently, most public bath houses or hot springs
are no longer coed. And as a matter of fact, as you
should know, kiddie porn magazines feature
photos taken from video of tv scenes with child
nudity, including from commercials. In the US, I
hear the animation "Tonari no Totoro/My
Neighbor Totoro" was allowed to retain its father/
daughters nude bath scene.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> Eric, you and I have both lived in Japan long enough to know that such
> views among Japanese women are not uncommon. Some may not like it, but
> most simply don't perceive it as a threat.
And I've posted numerous times what I and
professional writers or analysts, believe about
women who do not believe they are being harmed
by porn or other forms of exploitation. Your link
says the same regarding the views of her many
opponents.
> Live with porn just like you live with the other books and videos on the
> shelf.
Hard to do, when it is not segregated, as on a high
shelf, put in an adult only section, put in an adult
store, or covered in a plain wrapper. Should
people keep the TV off, avoid the bookstores, not
look at any pictures in the streets to avoid
something "too sexy?" Again, it does not matter
that I am not seeing it, because others are. I am
not a rapist, child molester or stalker.
> > So what DO your wife and the other ladies comics
> > advocates have to say about the position of women
> > in Japanese society? Is that ok, too?
>
> It's not ok. I don't deny that. But it is a separate issue. Some
> Western feminists would even say unrelated.
And as in the link you included, some feminists
would say women's position in society is
DIRECTLY related to porn or vice versa. I know
more about Gloria Steinem (who is opposed to
porn - my first experience of her writing was
attacking the hit adult movie "Deep Throat" after
interviews with the abused actress) or even more
extreme thinkers (some hate men) than I know of
McElroy. I've NEVER heard of her.
So would this relative powerlessness have
anything to do with those against porn not
speaking out? Does it have anything to do with the
so-called Japanese feminist movement not
opposing porn or exploitation of women as the
American feminist movement does?
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > Feminism is not necessarily incompatible with pornography. Check out
> > this brief history of pornography and feminist thought:
> >
> > http://www.freeinquirynetwork.com/FeministDefense.html
>
> Indeed. Please read. Particularly how she begins
> her piece (which wholeheartedly defends porn or
> the sex industry), because she KNOWS how most
> would not agree, or how heated the debate
> becomes, even amongst "feminists." Also note that
> the many cites she includes, do NOT agree with
> her views:
[snipped article]
Hers is unquestionably an extreme position. But the background info on
the changes in feminist thought concerning pornography is instructive.
> So is she a visionary, a radical, or crackpot
> versus the many feminists who disagree with her,
> or porn? You choose to support McElroy. I choose
> to agree with those who disagree with thoughts
> like hers.
I don't support McElroy. Mine is more of a liberal feminist's
position: I I disapprove of some pornography (staged "rape" or mock sex
with children -- the real things are not pornography, they are
documentations of crimes), but I oppose censorship most of all.
Although you say you personally enjoy some kinds of pornography, your
position on the issue is not that far off from that of Andrea Dworkin
and Catherine MacKinnon. Here is quote from MacKinnon. You can see how
this radical anti-porn position has disenfranchised many feminists,
especially lesbians:
>
> During a 1984 debate between MacKinnon and Nan Hunter, a
> member of the Feminist Anti-Censorship Task Force (FACT),
> an audience member asked what MacKinnon's proposed
> legislation would mean to such endeavors as the sexually
> explicit lesbian publication On Our Backs. Former Penthouse
> editor and author John Heidenry writes about this
> confrontation in his book, What Wild Ecstasy: The Rise and
> Fall of the Sexual Revolution (Simon & Schuster, 1997).
> "MacKinnon's reply was that a woman who needed pornography
> as part of her sexuality had no right to that sexuality."
Got this blurb from here:
http://fairfieldweekly.com/articles/porn.html
> In the past few weeks in the Japanese English
> dailies was a book review regarding the sex trade
> in Thailand. There were people with views like
> McElroy's, that it was empowerment of women.
> Money sent home from prostitution is literally
> the lifeblood of many rural communities, and the
> Thai economy was said to be "built on the backs of
> women who worked on their backs," or words to
> that effect. Prostitutes were called as wealthy or
> successful as professional women of high status.
> However, of course, prostitutes do NOT enjoy high
> status, and they put their bodies and lives at risk.
> Strange that these "empowered" women in
> southeast Asia or Africa are at the same time
> being ravaged by AIDS, and spreading it amongst
> their customers and their families.
Thai sex workers are not Japanese housewives. Or US liberal feminists,
for that matter. Maybe when their society has developed a little more,
they too will be able to take a stand in favor of pornography like their
more advanced sisters.
>
> There are defenders of child porn who also claim
> that the girls are doing it of their own free will.
> After all, are they not performing, and many
> times smiling while doing so? Well, I have seen
> bruises and strange scars (say cigarette burn) in
> some photos of girls, or in some videos of porn
> actresses.
As I said, recorded sex with underage children is not pornography -- it
is a documentation of a crime. There isn't even an argument here.
> > It's very tempting to read into pornography all the evils and
> > injustice of the society that surrounds it. But sometimes that
> > interpretation may not be correct. Sometimes sex is just sex.
>
> Again, why must nearly everyone be exposed to
> other people's fetishes and fixations, as in Japan?
Magazines need to be opened, videos need to be rented.
> > Again, I quote my all-knowing wife: "Children don't look at those
> > things. They aren't interested." She does have a way of cutting to the
> > heart of the matter, doesn't she.
>
> CHILDREN DO NOT LOOK AT PORN? PLEEEEASE. Is
> this from her experience as a mother? Or a school
> teacher? Or employee of a bookstore?
As a matter of fact, she has worked in a bookstore before. But we all
go into bookstores in Japan. Have you ever seen children at the porno
racks? Leafing through Ladies' Comics? Walking wide-eyed through the
adult video corner? I, not even once. By children, I'm talking about
elementary students. Highschoolers are not children. Middle
schoolers...are in between. But I've never seen middle schoolers in
those areas either.
> And what if
> *I* tell you that my schoolchildren certainly
> have experience with porn, usually off their dads
> or older siblings, because they certainly ARE
> interested?
But not from public booksellers. And that is what we are discussing:
The corrupting influence of porn openly sold in Japanese bookstores.
> When did you start looking at porn? I
> first viewed porn at my leisure when I was 11.
Saw my first at a friends house in sixth grade. He smuggled it out of
his dad's office. But when was the first time you stood in a bookstore
leafing through porn in public? This is the real question. You say
Japanese children are doing this? Not in any bookstore I've been in
here in Kyushu, and that includes Fukuoka.
> > According to the link you gave a couple posts back, computer created
> > pseudo-porn (digitally grafting images of children's heads to adult
> > actor's bodies) is illegal in the US.
>
> Also kiddy porn by computer graphics.
>
> > Ignoring the repugnant nature of
> > such porn, it is still quite easy to produce it without ever having
>
> So you think this IS wrong?
It is offensive. But it is not criminal, in my opinion.
> If it looks good enough to be real, is
> presented AS real, what difference would their be
> in the effect? I say, none.
"Effect"? You mean grown perverts getting a hard-on? I thought
protecting real, live children from being exploited was the issue here.
This is where the danger lies: Secondary effects is a guessing game.
Who decides?
>
> > Even using adult actors that "look like" children and marketing
> > it as pornography would fall under this ruling.
>
> Punishing and eliminating child porn IS the aim of
> this law, yes. If someone wants to promote
> themselves as child porn, they'll be treated like
> child porn. Duh.
Adult midget porn with this pitchline: "As small as children! Use your
imagination!" Stupid, yes. But not kiddie porn. And it shouldn't be
illegal. How can you honestly convict a person for peddling child porn
if no children were involved? Here is what I'm doing right now as I
type this: I'm thinking of a naked elementary school girl swinging in a
playground. Is this child porn? My self-composed mental image? Is
writing this mental image in a public forum child porn? Is Nobakov's
acclaimed novel "Lolita" now child porn because it can inspire images of
pedophilia in the mind of the reader? Do you now understand my concern
about censorship?
> > How do these laws protect the
> > well-being of children directly? They don't.
> > Their purpose is to avoid
> > whetting the appetite of those who may find children sexually exciting.
>
> Also a good reason, and one I would agree with.
Well, I would say this is a noble reason, but in the end a bad one. See
above.
>
> > Pedophilia is horrible, but I'm not willing to give up freedom of
> > expression in an effort to ban every image that is potentially arousing
> > to a few deviant men.
>
> Wait now. You are specifically referring to
> pedophilia here. Are you saying that child erotica
> SHOULD be ok, in the name of freedom or limited
> risk?
Sex with children is criminal. Kidnapping is criminal. Child
molestation and abuse is criminal. If you don't do these things, you
shouldn't go to jail. I am not opposed to pictures of naked children.
--gary
gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
Eric:
> > > So what DO your wife and the other ladies comics
> > > advocates have to say about the position of women
> > > in Japanese society? Is that ok, too?
> >
> > It's not ok. I don't deny that. But it is a separate issue. Some
> > Western feminists would even say unrelated.
>
> And as in the link you included, some feminists
> would say women's position in society is
> DIRECTLY related to porn or vice versa. I know
> more about Gloria Steinem (who is opposed to
> porn - my first experience of her writing was
> attacking the hit adult movie "Deep Throat" after
> interviews with the abused actress) or even more
> extreme thinkers (some hate men) than I know of
> McElroy. I've NEVER heard of her.
>
> So would this relative powerlessness have
> anything to do with those against porn not
> speaking out? Does it have anything to do with the
> so-called Japanese feminist movement not
> opposing porn or exploitation of women as the
> American feminist movement does?
We're drifting off into feminist theory, something I'm not prepared go
into. But some of your points I respond to up in the other leg of this
thread.
--gary
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp
> I don't support McElroy. Mine is more of a liberal feminist's
> position: I I disapprove of some pornography (staged "rape" or mock sex
> with children -- the real things are not pornography, they are
> documentations of crimes), but I oppose censorship most of all.
What is the use of disapproval, if you oppose doing
away with the object of your disapproval? It is
toleration at best.
> Although you say you personally enjoy some kinds of pornography, your
> position on the issue is not that far off from that of Andrea Dworkin
> and Catherine MacKinnon.
Obviously not. They don't believe in porn. I like
some porn.
> Got this blurb from here:
>
> http://fairfieldweekly.com/articles/porn.html
From that page:
Royalle introduces each of her movies with an
informational segment on First Amendment rights
and how to protect them. She has serious doubts
about the true motives of the right-wing agenda.
"Women's lives are [negatively] affected by these
very same people that run around claiming
they're trying to protect us," she says. "[They]
would just as soon take [away] our ability to go
out and build an economic base for ourselves, get
child care, have access to safe abortions."
[end]
She doesn't know what the hell she is talking
about, and she is not referring to me. I am not
right-wing. I've been called communist for my
anti-establishment views. I believe women
SHOULD work and earn like men, precisely
because they can. They SHOULD get child care to
help them get out of the house (and husbands
should support them). Abortions I don't like, but
it's the law, and I don't believe in forcing women
to bear products of rape, incest, or with serious
medical conditions. Abortion as birth control, for
convenience, or to cover up an illicit relationship
(ie, not a product of marriage) is a damned
shame.
> Thai sex workers are not Japanese housewives. Or US liberal feminists,
> for that matter. Maybe when their society has developed a little more,
> they too will be able to take a stand in favor of pornography like their
> more advanced sisters.
Excuse me? The sex trade IS a way of life in many
of these countries, as noted, the lifeblood of many
households or entire communities. They are much
more open or practical than in the West.
> Magazines need to be opened, videos need to be rented.
Not all need to be made. Not all should have a right
to exist.
> As a matter of fact, she has worked in a bookstore before. But we all
> go into bookstores in Japan. Have you ever seen children at the porno
> racks? Leafing through Ladies' Comics? Walking wide-eyed through the
> adult video corner? I, not even once.
In Izumi in Etajima, one scene sticks out in my
mind when I was a teacher: two girls, perhaps
three or four, were leafing through adult
magazines, looking at the photos of nude women,
and giggling hysterically. Passersby certainly
looked disturbed.
And I will repeat: my students got their porn
through older males in their households (it is out
in the open), and Japanese had to create a 15 or
older video warning to (try to) keep racy
materials AWAY from kids who were looking, like
the Kobe Killer. Mind you, this same material,
including animation such as "Doukyuusei/
Classmates," is considered ADULT (18 or older)
in the US.
So tell me why and how kids know about porn, if
they aren't looking, aren't even interested. School
sex ed is not "porn." They don't teach kids about
oral sex or teach them gutter slang, for example.
How can you say kids are not at the "porn" rack, if
there is none, and the adult stuff is among the
"Shonen" or "Young" manga shelf, for example? It
is precisely this way at the store nearest my
office, part of a chain book store, Keibunsha. At
Tsutaya, the "porn" rack is part of the car/
motorcycle/music/fashion rack. At the Keibunsha
nearest my house, the "porn" rack is part of the
plastic model/gun/train/plane/fashion enthusiast
shelf. At small bookshops, they keep porn outside
the front door on the street for all to see.
> By children, I'm talking about
> elementary students. Highschoolers are not children. Middle
> schoolers...are in between. But I've never seen middle schoolers in
> those areas either.
Why the sudden categorization? Because you know
middle schoolers and high schoolers ARE
interested in sex and porn, and DO know and look?
Is this some kind of retreat? Even in Japan, there
is material for 18 or older, ONLY. Students are
NOT supposed to be looking at that stuff, even in
sexually enlightened Japan.
So why and how do kids know?
> But not from public booksellers. And that is what we are discussing:
> The corrupting influence of porn openly sold in Japanese bookstores.
Again, erotica may be found in a variety of "non-
porn" sources. Comic books, gossip magazines,
sports magazines and newspapers, game soft
mags, the software shelf, etc. You going to tell me
you and your wife have never seen "children"
there, either?
Here is one trick taught to me by friends when I
was a kid, and my Japanese students knew it, too:
take the magazine you wish to see, and stick it in
another, so only the cover of the outer one is
showing. I was never caught nor scolded.
> Saw my first at a friends house in sixth grade. He smuggled it out of
> his dad's office. But when was the first time you stood in a bookstore
> leafing through porn in public? This is the real question.
Don't remember. But I was young enough to need
the double magazine trick, and they hadn't
wrapped porn in plastic yet.
> You say
> Japanese children are doing this?
Who said Japanese children are standing and
leafing through porn? I said it's where anyone can
see it. Nudes and sexual scenes are on the covers
of manga, magazines andshashinshuu, on posters,
etc., where you can see them simply walking by,
including outside the front door on the street. You
can see child porn on the covers, too.
And what of TV? My students were the ones who
told me "The history of adult movies, part II,"
with clips, was on Tonight2 that night. They were
the ones who told me what shows to watch.
April 1st, the Japanese government enacted a law
requiring sex industry places to take down their
sexy signs, and not allow them within hundreds of
meters of schools, hospitals, etc. Saw police
officers tearing down signs personally, on TV. I
WONDER WHY, IF KIDS ARE NOT INTERESTED OR
LOOKING, HUH?
> Not in any bookstore I've been in
> here in Kyushu, and that includes Fukuoka.
So I guess kids in Kyuushuu don't know about sex
or porn. I guess they don't know about phone clubs
or enjou kousai, like I've seen junior high,
perhaps even younger girls, doing, including
making calls from the public phone outside the
school office, on the main shopping street in
Hiroshima, or in Sogo department store. I guess
girls from Kyuushuu don't voluntarily appear in
schoolgirl videos to earn some yen, like other
girls do.
> It is offensive. But it is not criminal, in my opinion.
Then don't bring any to the US or UK, cuz you
could be up the creek for a minimum of three
years on federal charges.
> "Effect"? You mean grown perverts getting a hard-on? I thought
> protecting real, live children from being exploited was the issue here.
This thread, you know, the first message out of
the more than 200 it has become, is about manga,
and I've been talking about manga.
"Exploited?" Who said I was limited to talking
about exploitation? I'm talking about offensive
materials.
> This is where the danger lies: Secondary effects is a guessing game.
> Who decides?
According to the legal definitions of "indecency"
and "pornography" in the US at least, the standard
is the morals of the majority.
> Adult midget porn with this pitchline: "As small as children! Use your
My pardon to anyone out there, but the people
traditionally called "midgets" or "dwarves," are
not my thing. They are part of a fetishist genre,
like interracial couples or fat woman erotica.
Boye De Mente, for sure, has written that
Western men are drawn to Japanese women
because their appearance, mannerisms, size, etc.,
makes them look younger, makes men feel more
masculine, or they expect Japanese vaginas
"should" be tighter.
Perhaps this child like feature is the reason Asian
fetish porn is said to be so popular in the US,
though in my opinion, the Asian women American
videos use are usually ugly.
> imagination!" Stupid, yes. But not kiddie porn. And it shouldn't be
The Penthouse magazine I mentioned my father
received as a gag gift for Christmas when I was 11
was the December 1980 or January 1981 issue.
One of the features in that issue was a woman who
was dressed and made up (frilly skirts, makeup,
etc.) as a girl half her age, eg, nine or ten, doing
the usual show all poses. Later was the Pia Zadora
cover issue. I've read Penthouse and Penthouse
Forum since. I don't believe them to be child porn
in general, though they do describe underage
encounters in their letters.
> illegal. How can you honestly convict a person for peddling child porn
> if no children were involved?
Simple. Create laws defining outlawed materials,
as the UK or US have. Perhaps you can find the
convicting judges' decisions somewhere.
> Here is what I'm doing right now as I
> type this: I'm thinking of a naked elementary school girl swinging in a
> playground. Is this child porn?
Is it for the purpose of sexual stimulation or
gratification? Would it pass the "indecency" or
"pornography" tests of the US or UK? Have you
spoken to a professional about it?
> My self-composed mental image? Is
> writing this mental image in a public forum child porn?
Be more explicit, so others can enjoy it, too.
Expand the story line, post it to
alt.binaries.sex.stories.incest, label your story
"(mf, pedo, incest, rape, )" and see what the real
pedos think.
> Is Nobakov's
> acclaimed novel "Lolita" now child porn because it can inspire images of
That depends. Is it marketed as child porn, as
seems to be required by the law? Or does it pass
itself off as "art" or "literature?" In Nagisa
Oshima's "Ai no Koridaa/In the Realm of the
Senses," my friend tells me is a scene of "O-Sada"
grabbing the penises of 11 year old boys and
seems to be causing them pain. (I heard at the
time the film was banned in the famous director's
native Japan. It has been acclaimed as "art" for
quite some time. My alma mater, the University
of Hawaii, had showings of a number of
deliberately controversial "art" films.) So, is "Ai
no Koridaa" (child) porn? It failed even the
Japanese test. We had to be adults in the US to
watch.
> pedophilia in the mind of the reader? Do you now understand my concern
> about censorship?
I've heard about concerns over censorship since at
least seventh grade. And obviously (the shouting
"Fire!" in a crowded theater example, libel,
slander, some race hate), not everything is
allowable. I do not see a problem.
> Sex with children is criminal. Kidnapping is criminal. Child
> molestation and abuse is criminal. If you don't do these things, you
> shouldn't go to jail.
You know, these things are perfectly otay in many
countries, including quite modern ones.
> I am not opposed to pictures of naked children.
Otay. But don't bring any home.
gary
of your points in this post, but I'm willing to just end it at this.
et...@fkym.daiichi-net.or.jp wrote:
>
> gary <gar...@pop21.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > I don't support McElroy. Mine is more of a liberal feminist's
> > position: I I disapprove of some pornography (staged "rape" or mock sex
> > with children -- the real things are not pornography, they are
> > documentations of crimes), but I oppose censorship most of all.
>
> What is the use of disapproval, if you oppose doing
> away with the object of your disapproval? It is
> toleration at best.
I disapprove of KKK hate speech too. But tolerating it is just holding
up my side of the bargain in the marketplace of ideas. I know what
you're thinking: I've been duped and brainwashed by the ACLU.
> > "Effect"? You mean grown perverts getting a hard-on? I thought
> > protecting real, live children from being exploited was the issue here.
>
> This thread, you know, the first message out of
> the more than 200 it has become, is about manga,
> and I've been talking about manga.
>
> "Exploited?" Who said I was limited to talking
> about exploitation? I'm talking about offensive
> materials.
Well this pretty much sums up our positions on this issue. I'm only
concerned about protecting the direct well-being of children and women.
You have the additional concern of prohibiting or regulating what you
think is offensive.
> Boye De Mente, for sure, has written that
> Western men are drawn to Japanese women
> because their appearance, mannerisms, size, etc.,
> makes them look younger, makes men feel more
> masculine, or they expect Japanese vaginas
> "should" be tighter.
On a lighter note, in doing the "research" for this thread at the porno
racks, I came across an ad for a product called "China Vagina". It is a
hand-held soft rubber masturbatory aide that resembles a lifelike
vagina, but with the slit running diagonally instead of up-and-down.
The box said, "A new slant on doing it".
> > illegal. How can you honestly convict a person for peddling child porn
> > if no children were involved?
>
> Simple. Create laws defining outlawed materials,
> as the UK or US have. Perhaps you can find the
> convicting judges' decisions somewhere.
But here is the difference. If you or I came across a man raping a
child or woman in the forest, neither of us would hesitate killing him
right there on the spot, no questions asked. Would you do the same to a
lone man making digital, pseudo child porn on a laptop?
> > I am not opposed to pictures of naked children.
>
> Otay. But don't bring any home.
The kind I like best you can only see in an art museum. See Edvard
Munch's "Puberty":
http://familiar.sph.umich.edu/mirror/www.cat.nyu.edu/fox/art/munch/puberty.jpg.html
--gary
Philip Brown
>gary wrote:
>>
>> Sounds pretty disagreeable to me. Isn't "lechery" a crime designation?
>> Also, definite male gender-bias. But I can imaging this ad copy for a
>> Hello Kitty vibrator:
>>
>> "Anata no etchi na kibun...kitty-chan ni makasete..."
>
>Not really. It's no worse than etchi. "Bob is such a lech..."
dunno where you live, but round here, "lech" is a very negative thing.
--
[Trim the no-bots from my address to reply to me by email!]
[ Do NOT email-CC me on posts. Pick one or the other.]
--------------------------------------------------
The word of the day is sescaquintillion
Prince Richard Kaminski
gary wrote:
> Interesting aside: Would US/UK crusaders against child porn allow TV
> bath salts commercials in Japan which show "father" and "son" actors in
> the tub together? Would they seek to prohibit Japanese communal baths
> where men and boys bathe together?
I think this is a similar situation to the one Scott Reynolds pointed
out in the gun discussion. The purpose of the ads you mention is not to
titillate pedophiles, just as the purpose of cars (however many people
may be killed in road accidents) is not to kill people.
The purpose of child pornography on the other hand is precisely to
satisfy the desires of pedophiles, just as the purpose of guns is
primarily to kill living beings.
gary
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote:
>
> gary wrote:
>
> > Interesting aside: Would US/UK crusaders against child porn allow TV
> > bath salts commercials in Japan which show "father" and "son" actors in
> > the tub together? Would they seek to prohibit Japanese communal baths
> > where men and boys bathe together?
>
> I think this is a similar situation to the one Scott Reynolds pointed
> out in the gun discussion. The purpose of the ads you mention is not to
> titillate pedophiles, just as the purpose of cars (however many people
> may be killed in road accidents) is not to kill people.
And yet my guess is a similar TV ad in the US and UK would arouse
condemnation, because it titillates pedophiles and teaches children that
such encounters are "normal".
> The purpose of child pornography on the other hand is precisely to
> satisfy the desires of pedophiles, just as the purpose of guns is
> primarily to kill living beings.
Which brings us back to the question of "what is pornographic"? Like
Eric mentioned, there are magazines in Japan that show photos of young
girls in the park with their skirts raised up during the natural course
of play, underwear exposed. And close-up crotch shots of young girls
high-kicking at gym meets. Some pedophiles apparently find such things
sexually arousing. If this is the only criterion for defining "child
porn", then Munch's "Puberty" I mentioned might qualify. Would you
object to a living artist publicly displaying a galleryfull of naked
young girl oil paintings? How about photographs? How about publishing
those photographs in a book and shelving it in the Art section at the
bookstore. How about sliding it over a few meters closer to the porn
section? Does it start to offend you now? And it didn't when they were
just hanging in the gallery? Sounds to me like "pornography" is all in
your head.
In the end, what is titillating to a pedophile is irrelevant to me. If
a man wants to masturbate to a photo -- or an oil painting -- of a
naked little girl, he has my blessings. All I care about is how that
image was produced: Was the girl harmed, was she coerced, and did her
parents give permission.
--gary
Fabian
Prince Richard Kaminski wrote in message <37290B4C...@hotmail.com>...
>
>gary wrote:
>
>> Interesting aside: Would US/UK crusaders against child porn allow TV
>> bath salts commercials in Japan which show "father" and "son" actors in
>> the tub together? Would they seek to prohibit Japanese communal baths
>> where men and boys bathe together?
I believe there was a Star trek episode in which the characters Worf and his
son were sharing a bath with Deanna and one other. So I guess such an advert
would get past the censors.
otoh, such an advert could not be culturally relevant to Britain, as very
few baths or equivalent devices here are big enough to accomodate more than
one person. So teh advert would be unlikely to be made anyway.
---
Fabian
Rule One: Question the unquestionable,
ask the unaskable, eff the ineffable,
think the unthinkable, and screw the inscrutable.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
>
> Prince Richard Kaminski wrote in message <37290B4C...@hotmail.com>...
> >
> >gary wrote:
> >
> >> Interesting aside: Would US/UK crusaders against child porn allow TV
> >> bath salts commercials in Japan which show "father" and "son" actors in
> >> the tub together? Would they seek to prohibit Japanese communal baths
> >> where men and boys bathe together?
>
> I believe there was a Star trek episode in which the characters Worf and his
> son were sharing a bath with Deanna and one other. So I guess such an advert
> would get past the censors.
Please be more careful with your attributions. Your post begins with
"Prince Richard Kaminski wrote:" but there isn't a single word of mine
there.
Not everyone will realise the significance of the double >> before
gary's words, and in any case, it's confusing. Any further breaches will
result in you being suspended upside down above a vat of boiling oil,
carried on the back of man eating crocodiles. The rope by which you are
hanging will corrode slowly due to the actions of ants, which will also
gorge themselves on your body while you are waiting for the drop.
Thanks for listening.