SYMPATHIZE WITH ISRAELIS
anwar
-Their grand-grand-grand parents were tortured.
(so what? Armenians, Vietnamese, Kurds, Indians, Communists, Africans
have all been tortured. That's history, don't bring it her today)
-They are hated by everybody
(that's true, I have to agree with that one)
-They are a minority
(See, a small country in a wide see of hatred. And they hope to survive
with violence as their only way out. But by building hatred they are
destroying their existence. I am half-jew myself, and my grandmother was
well treated in an arab world, but today, there is no chance, because of the
bad image ISRAEL has given to JEWS)
-They have to face anti-semitism everyday
( actually, this is just a propaganda made by Israel. There is more
anti-semitism against arabs than there is against jews)
-They are full of fear
(more to come in the future of course - unless they embrace peace and
learn that a minority cannot keep ruling the world forever)
Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
Chas
> -Their grand-grand-grand parents were tortured.
today, if you mean that they presently survive and got caught taking tea in
public.
> -They are hated by everybody
Actually, there are some of us who love them as a religious precept- much
less the guys who like having a forward base into your Empire.
And now we can stage for you out of Iraq- maybe build a B-52 airport where
Fallujah used to be- it has no historical significance, no need to keep it.
> -They are a minority
Protected by a huge power that won WWII, gave them their piece of land and
told you people to fuck off younazilovingpigs.
Being a warrior religion, surely you understand meeting an enemy from over
the horizon; get used to it, you came looking for us.
> -They have to face anti-semitism everyday
And we gave you a good thrashing the last time you allied with those that
exercised it.
> -They are full of fear
Yeah; and for a lot of people, that just pisses them off- righteous
indignation is a terrible thing to arouse.
> Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
You guys embarrass all human history.
Chas
m II
>>Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
>
>
> You guys embarrass all human history.
Thank you for admitting that we ARE the human side.
mike
Eugene Tooms
says...
~Chas wrote:
~
~>>Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
~>
~>
~> You guys embarrass all human history.
~
~
~Thank you for admitting that we ARE the human side.
~
~mike
Another Michael I see. ;-)
--
Eugene Tooms
He gets into rooms
anwar
You uneducated fool. While hitler killed the Jews, arabs protected them.
Keep that in mind. Don't even try to make any anologies here. If you want
to make any anologies, look at all the massacres Israel is doing every day.
I have nothing agains jews, I am half jew myself. You are a human
disgrace.
As for Americans protecting their base into their human empire, well I
have a bad news for them. Let them start by protecting their homeland.
65,000 AMericans die from crime every year. Psychiatrists are enjoying a
prosperous future in the US because most people feel lonely, abused, sad,
addicted, angry .... Americans are alientating themselves and their
conscience is eating them alive.
Human history? Come on !!! Who embarasses human history, the muslims who
are trying to struggle with empoverishment and weapons spread by americans
to quench their sadistic thirst? Or Americans who attack foreign countries
to search for gold?
You are a disgrace to humanity. Ask the billion people who marched in the
streets of the world protesting your savage terrorist behaviour
"Chas" <chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:o8WdncuqFp1...@comcast.com...
Farouk Dindar
>
>Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
>
Hi Anwar
That was a good post but I have learned from bitter experienc
that is very difficult to have a rational dialogue people obsessed
with their cult. Zionism has all the features of a cult.
These cults are doomed like Jim Jones cult.
The sooner this cult dies the better it for the non-Zionists on this
planet earth.
Farouk Dindar
anwar
Hi,
That is somehow true that it is hard to reason with Zionists.
But we have to fight at all levels.
The main problem is that this cult has managed to convince others that
they have good intentions. We have to keep reasoning so that others stop
being fooled by their ways.
Among muslims it is important to understand the difference between
zionists and jews. Some jews are fighting through art and intellect against
the state of Israel which existence is the largest organise scam in world
history. These jews are badly regarded by the media as "leftist" or
"communists". They use buzz-words to protect their
criminal-terrorist-racist existence.
Let's all do our best to win the war, we are learning zionist cunning
skills, and when we master them, we can fight them with their own weapons.
catch you later,
anwar
"Farouk Dindar" <remove_...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Z6Wdc.43215$wq4.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Chas
> You uneducated fool. While hitler killed the Jews, arabs protected
them.
> Keep that in mind.
The Arabs were allied with the Nazi's- that's how they lost Israel.
> Don't even try to make any anologies here. If you want
> to make any anologies, look at all the massacres Israel is doing every
day.
Why has not the arab world taken it's brothers back into TransJordan? Why do
they not send humanitarian aid to the refugee camps and ease their
suffering? Why do they continue to use those poor TransJordanian colonists
as pawns in their game of Empire?
> I have nothing agains jews, I am half jew myself. You are a human
> disgrace.
You probably should thank my God that I'm not in charge- your's ain't
helping much.
> Human history? Come on !!! Who embarasses human history, the muslims
who
> are trying to struggle with empoverishment and weapons spread by americans
> to quench their sadistic thirst?
Cheerfully murdering those that they don't value enough to enslave;
despoiling holy artifacts and sites of every religion but their own;
financing the decadence of their princes by living in 7th century mud huts?
> Or Americans who attack foreign countries
> to search for gold?
You mean the only market for that black stuff that used to kill your goats
if it polluted what little water is in your desert? The guys who could get
value out of a hole in the ground, and built hospitals, schools, water
purification plants and enriched your princes in exchange?
You mean nasty ol' America, where your children come to be medically
treated, educated and from whence they refuse to return home?
The only place in the world where Muslims enjoy more freedom to worship as
they choose than any muslim country in the entire world?
> You are a disgrace to humanity. Ask the billion people who marched in
the
> streets of the world protesting your savage terrorist behaviour
Told you the Muslim world was united- it was probably closer to that 1.2B,
unless some were home sick, or taking flying lessons.
Chas
Chas
> Let's all do our best to win the war, we are learning zionist cunning
> skills,
geez, guys; it's been thirteen hundred years since Mohammed murdered the 600
and sold their families into slavery- you should be up to speed by now.
> and when we master them,
Uh, yeah; as regards that thirteen hundred years- the Jews don't even have
any oil, partner- you can't even catch up carrying a bag of money to grease
your way.
Your big claim to fame is inventing the zero; how appropriate.
> we can fight them with their own weapons.
Well, you certainly don't seem to be able to produce any of your ownduh- you
know, other than sending your best and brightest as bomb delivery systems,
single-use though they are.
I particularly liked the woman lawyer who managed to kill her own escort and
destroy the automobile they didn't allow her to drive. I figure that 72
virgins and a bunch of peg-boys is a fitting reward for her; an eternity of
bad lays and people who want to borrow her lipstick.
Chas
anwar
The arabs protected the jews in the arab world. The Nazis by definition
are anti-semitists. Arabs are semitists.
Enough talking with you kiddy .... you have a long way to go. And watch,
watch closely as the American empire dissolves between your weak incompetent
hands ... God gave you something, you had the power to be just, but you
responded with treason. Beware cause God, our God, your God, will take
revenge.
As much as I scorn muslim islamists, I prefer them to a Nazi like you.
"Chas" <chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bPOdnd3jEa_...@comcast.com...
Farouk Dindar
>
>geez, guys; it's been thirteen hundred years since Mohammed murdered the 600
>and sold their families into slavery- you should be up to speed by now.
This is typical style of the Zionist cult member
They will refer to some very remote event in history to justify their
crimes TODAY!
I find that in Canada suddenly on TV and newsmedia there are
aricles appearing on the Holocaust victims. As much as I sympathize
with the timing appears to be deflect from the crimes of the Zionists
in the occupied territiories.
The assasination of Yassin is something that has hit a sensitive spot
in EVERY Muslim and every decent human being on this earth.
The glee from the Zionist at seeing Yassins open skull with the brain
sticking out needs to be seen on the TV before passing judgement on
of Arabs in Falluja.
The Zionist are stupid and self deafeatist.
Their crimes may make bring on another silent " Holocaust" where
all Jewish people may not only have to change their
names but give up their religion to hide their identity
Farouk Dindar
Farouk Dindar
Chas
> The arabs protected the jews in the arab world. The Nazis by
definition
> are anti-semitists. Arabs are semitists.
Just shows you how gullible the Nazi's found you to be.
> As much as I scorn muslim islamists, I prefer them to a Nazi like you.
So you scorn the Words of the Prophet as well?
Chas
Chris X
Good post, couldn't agree more !
"If I'd have wanted to die for Israel, I'd have joined the South Lebanon
Army."
- British Army Private, Iraq, July 2003
http://www.bnp.org.uk
http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies.html
http://www.bnp.org.uk/meet.html
http://www.bnp.org.uk/policy/policy_forum.htm
http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html
http://www.boycottisrael.org/Is_goods.htm
http://www.boycottusa.org/usa_goods.htm
Chas
> >geez, guys; it's been thirteen hundred years since Mohammed murdered the
600
> >and sold their families into slavery- you should be up to speed by now.
> This is typical style of the Zionist cult member
> They will refer to some very remote event in history to justify their
> crimes TODAY!
You mean like Mohammeds single miracle; the Single-Night's Journey to
Jerusalem?
Or just marking that event as the start of a history of unalloyed aggression
every day since then?
> I find that in Canada suddenly on TV and newsmedia there are
> aricles appearing on the Holocaust victims. As much as I sympathize
> with the timing appears to be deflect from the crimes of the Zionists
> in the occupied territiories.
Seeing as you lot lost the war, and with it any claim on anything we didn't
care to take from you, stories of the Holocaust are about moot for you in
any case.
> The assasination of Yassin is something that has hit a sensitive spot
> in EVERY Muslim and every decent human being on this earth.
cool.
Care to pick up his mantle?
> The glee from the Zionist at seeing Yassins open skull with the brain
> sticking out needs to be seen on the TV before passing judgement on
> of Arabs in Falluja.
No shit- I think you guys underestimate how pissed those guys are. It won't
be long until they're actually fighting back instead of just doing garrison
duty.
> The Zionist are stupid and self deafeatist.
And have the good land and pretty women.
Must really grump you guys living on a hot rock with a peg-boy.
> Their crimes may make bring on another silent " Holocaust" where
> all Jewish people may not only have to change their
> names but give up their religion to hide their identity
Or just sending you clowns back to the stone age and letting you hate people
in the dark while hiding in a cave, eating your camel.
Cheer up; when we kick your ass, we usually send boatloads of Spam so you
won't starve- if history be our guide.
Bon appetit
Chas
Ed
>
>
> >
> >geez, guys; it's been thirteen hundred years since Mohammed murdered the
600
> >and sold their families into slavery- you should be up to speed by now.
>
> This is typical style of the Zionist cult member
>
> They will refer to some very remote event in history to justify their
> crimes TODAY!
>
> I find that in Canada suddenly on TV and newsmedia there are
> aricles appearing on the Holocaust victims. As much as I sympathize
> with the timing appears to be deflect from the crimes of the Zionists
> in the occupied territiories.
>
> The assasination of Yassin is something that has hit a sensitive spot
> in EVERY Muslim and every decent human being on this earth.
>
> The glee from the Zionist at seeing Yassins open skull with the brain
> sticking out needs to be seen on the TV before passing judgement on
> of Arabs in Falluja.
As opposed to the glee from the Palestinians over 3000 people being killed
in the WTC and the Pentagon when a bunch of brainwashed Islamofascists
decided to fly airplanes into those buildings?
The three thousand who died there, as well as the hundreds who died in
Israeli restaurants and busses were not responsible for the deaths of
anyone.
You can't say that about any Islamofascist, including your hero, Yassin the
Assassin.
The Islamofascists have sealed their own fate.
>
> The Zionist are stupid and self deafeatist.
Self defeatist? Seems to me that continuing to inflict more suffering on
the Israelis only results in more Palestinian deaths. Seems pretty damned
self-defeatest to me.
>
> Their crimes may make bring on another silent " Holocaust" where
> all Jewish people may not only have to change their
> names but give up their religion to hide their identity
Yeah, you would love that, especially if they all "convert" to Islam in
order to "hide their identity."
>
> Farouk Dindar
>
> Farouk Dindar
>
>
m II
> The Arabs were allied with the Nazi's- that's how they lost Israel.
What a crock of sh*t.
The Arabs 'lost' nothing. It was stolen by the Balfour declaration in
1917. It was imposed on the Middle East by the zionists in the
government of England, among others.
==============================================
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/balfour.html
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild:
I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's
Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist
aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine
of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best
endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly
understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and
religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the
rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge
of the Zionist Federation.
Yours,
Arthur James Balfour
Chas
> > The Arabs were allied with the Nazi's- that's how they lost Israel.
> 1917. It was imposed on the Middle East by the zionists in the
> government of England, among others.
and none of it stuck until after WWII.
Of course, if you want to go back in time, the muslims were poor thirds to
the Jews and Christians in the area, came at the point of a sword, and we've
been unable to dislodge them since.
Chas
Ed
>
>
> >
> >geez, guys; it's been thirteen hundred years since Mohammed murdered the
600
> >and sold their families into slavery- you should be up to speed by now.
>
> This is typical style of the Zionist cult member
>
> They will refer to some very remote event in history to justify their
> crimes TODAY!
>
> I find that in Canada suddenly on TV and newsmedia there are
> aricles appearing on the Holocaust victims. As much as I sympathize
> with the timing appears to be deflect from the crimes of the Zionists
> in the occupied territiories.
>
> The assasination of Yassin is something that has hit a sensitive spot
> in EVERY Muslim and every decent human being on this earth.
>
> The glee from the Zionist at seeing Yassins open skull with the brain
> sticking out needs to be seen on the TV before passing judgement on
> of Arabs in Falluja.
As opposed to the glee from the Palestinians over 3000 people being killed
in the WTC and the Pentagon when a bunch of brainwashed Islamofascists
decided to fly airplanes into those buildings?
The three thousand who died there, as well as the hundreds who died in
Israeli restaurants and busses were not responsible for the deaths of
anyone.
You can't say that about any Islamofascist, including your hero, Yassin the
Assassin.
The Islamofascists have sealed their own fate.
>
> The Zionist are stupid and self deafeatist.
Self defeatist? Seems to me that continuing to inflict more suffering on
the Israelis only results in more Palestinian deaths. Seems pretty damned
self-defeatest to me.
>
> Their crimes may make bring on another silent " Holocaust" where
> all Jewish people may not only have to change their
> names but give up their religion to hide their identity
Yeah, you would love that, especially if they all "convert" to Islam in
m II
> and none of it stuck until after WWII.
> Of course, if you want to go back in time, the muslims were poor thirds to
> the Jews and Christians in the area, came at the point of a sword, and we've
> been unable to dislodge them since.
There was a Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem before 600 AD. Then the
Crusades a few hundred years later. Remember those?
King Richard beheaded over two thousand Arab prisoners because the
ransom money to get their freedom was late and he didn't want to take
care of them at his own expense.
Richard then proceeds to get kidnapped himself in Germany while on his
way home.
The Kurds and the Arabs were getting bombed to hell by the English in
the early part of this century, circa 1920.
The Arabs seem to have been getting screwed over more often than not.
The theft of land by the European Jews was just another version of a
Crusade.
Dislodge them? It's their rightful land.
mike
Chas
> There was a Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem before 600 AD. Then the
> Crusades a few hundred years later. Remember those?
Yes; to dislodge the muslim invaders who desecrate holy sites of other
religions, and restrict their right to worship as they please.
> King Richard beheaded over two thousand Arab prisoners because the
> ransom money to get their freedom was late and he didn't want to take
> care of them at his own expense.
Yeah; and he was kinda grumpy about the children and religious' of the first
few Crusades- which weren't even military operations- being enslaved and
killed by the muslim invaders.
> The Arabs seem to have been getting screwed over more often than not.
> The theft of land by the European Jews was just another version of a
> Crusade.
Good.
> Dislodge them? It's their rightful land.
Hogwash; latecoming thieves with no rights or justification except that any
land muslims want is automatically theirs by the precepts of their religion.
Chas
Ken Smith
> Let's take a moment and sympathize with Israelis:
>
> -Their grand-grand-grand parents were tortured.
> (so what? Armenians, Vietnamese, Kurds, Indians, Communists, Africans
> have all been tortured. That's history, don't bring it her today)
Tragically, what has been a fantastic survival strategy has also made
them a target for others' emnity. Even Qaddafi suggests that Arabs and
Muslims should emulate them, in the sense that they should strive to be
the most productive members of whatever society they are in.
> -They are hated by everybody
> (that's true, I have to agree with that one)
Personally, I much prefer their company to that of vicious born-again
Christians -- of which there is no shortage. Unfortunately, Christians
and Muslims belong to expansionist religions, which have been known to
advance their peculiar superstitions by way of knife and sword.
What Islam needs to do is what Christianity recently underwent: a
sort of reformation. Even the Catholics in this country tell the Pope
where to go, because the Christian religion is frankly not worth
embracing in its entirety. Granted, we DO have our Osama-class nutters,
but they are generally kept under wraps.
> -They are a minority
> (See, a small country in a wide see of hatred. And they hope to survive
> with violence as their only way out. But by building hatred they are
> destroying their existence. I am half-jew myself, and my grandmother was
> well treated in an arab world, but today, there is no chance, because of the
> bad image ISRAEL has given to JEWS)
Israel does seem to have become a flash-point. But if you think
Shrub was a lousy idea, you'd be better served to put down your RPGs for
a few months, and let us focus on our election and moribund economy. If
Shrub has to run on his disastrous economic policies, he loses. Period.
> -They have to face anti-semitism everyday
> ( actually, this is just a propaganda made by Israel.
To some (e.g., American radio talk show host Dennis Prager), opposing
the existence of the Jewish state is anti-Semitism (whilst conveniently
forgetting that the ones complaining the loudest ARE Semites).
> There is more
> anti-semitism against arabs than there is against jews)
> -They are full of fear
> (more to come in the future of course - unless they embrace peace and
> learn that a minority cannot keep ruling the world forever)
>
> Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
There seem to be a fair minority of Jews who don't see the need for
an Israel, particularly if it is acquired through unseemly means. As I
see it, it might make sense for them to start over in Long Island. We
would gain over two million of the most productive and motivated people
on the planet. Arabs would be able to recognize Israel from six
thousand miles away. And the only real losers would be the people of
Long Island, who would have their property taken from them without
compensation.
Do you think they'd be more magnanimous about it than the indigenous
Palestinians were in Israel? I wonder....
Finis MacGuiness
> There seem to be a fair minority of Jews who don't see the need for
>an Israel, particularly if it is acquired through unseemly means. As I
>see it, it might make sense for them to start over in Long Island.
Why not Colorado?
LawsonE
"Finis MacGuiness" <fm...@snickers.com> wrote in message
news:mtii70tlojbdk1va8...@4ax.com...
Someplace in Africa was originally considered, then they discovered that
land was cheap west of the Dead Sea so they went with the historical area.
Wotan
"anwar" <anwar.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:PQUdc.43165$wq4.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Yes, there are some, perhaps many, Jews who understand
that.
Unfortunately, none of them are the utterly evil and rapacious
"neo-con" Zionazis who control Bush and Blair.
That is where you need to make your attack - and I wish you
every good fortune with that difficult enterprise.
The cost of failure to bring them under control and to
neutralise their evil influence will, I fear, be far more
catastrophic for all Jews, some of whom do not deserve it,
than most currently foresee.
World communication is capable of being a great influence
for common understanding and good.
But what do you think the potential is for the next "holocaust"
becoming a global affair ?
Wotan
"Chris X" <chr...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OqydncQPGaz...@giganews.com...
And I will second that.
Especially the sentence "The Zionists are stupid and self
defeatist". Their blinding stupidity, obvious moral and
intellectual inferiority, incompetence, arrogance and
infamous corruption makes them unfit to be in charge of
anything.
The fact that they have managed to steal, cheat and
blackmail their way to be in charge of three of most
powerful nations in the western world (Britain, Canada
and the USA) leads me to suspect that the next "holocaust"
(and they have happened every 20 years over the last
1000 years, in one form or another) will be a global affair
- and not particularly silent.
And, as is the way of the world, the innocent Jews will
suffer along with the guilty.
Wotan
"LawsonE" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:G3cec.5459$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I think Hitler had a plan to move them to Madagascar, off the
African coast, where they could be isolated from the rest of
humanity.
JGB
> Let's take a moment and sympathize with Israelis:
>
> -Their grand-grand-grand parents were tortured.
> (so what? Armenians, Vietnamese, Kurds, Indians, Communists, Africans
> have all been tortured. That's history, don't bring it her today)<
THey were enslaved over 3,000 years ago, according to their
historiography,
and were attacked and exiled from their land twice. They were one of
the
first minority groups in the world, often confined in ghettos. The
Holocaust
was only the last of many extreme massacres in which 1/3rd of the
Jewish
nation was exterpated. As bad as their respective holocausts were,
neither
the Armenians, Kurds, Indians, Communists, Africans or anyone else,
with
the possible exception of the Indians of the Americas, lost 1/3rd
their
population in a single calculated massacre. While blacks and others
have
been in diaspora for over 500 years, Jews were in diaspora for nearly
2,000. So Jews are the most experienced (unfortunately) minority in
history.
> -They are hated by everybody
> (that's true, I have to agree with that one)<
Yes, almost everyone, that is true. And if the true Jews Jesus were
seen
today with his Jewish face, he'd be just as hated. But he's always
portrayed
as a blonde European, so how can such a cute face be hated?
> -They are a minority
> (See, a small country in a wide see of hatred. And they hope to survive
> with violence as their only way out.<
Not the only way, but one of many ways. Why not? Everyone else uses
it?
> But by building hatred they are
> destroying their existence. I am half-jew myself,<
Not necessarily. ANyway, there is no such thing as "half-Jew." I your
mother
was Jewish, you're Jewish. If she wasn't, you're not. Period. Doesn't
matter
if your father was Moses.
> and my grandmother was
> well treated in an arab world, but today, there is no chance, because of the
> bad image ISRAEL has given to JEWS)<
Tough shit on the Arabs. They don't worry about their image, so why
should
Jews worry about ours? As you say, we're hated either way, so why not
live
up to it? We don't want to be hated for NOTHING. At least if we
finally
massacre our enemies there'll be a decent reason to hate us.
> -They have to face anti-semitism everyday
> ( actually, this is just a propaganda made by Israel. There is more
> anti-semitism against arabs than there is against jews)<
IF there is, it is because Arabs don't try to have a good image. They
openly call for ISlamization of the world, use of terror, civilian
hostages,
shooting from mosques and hospitals, using their own children as
bombs, etc.
And then you still want a good image too? We Jews have to learn from
you
Arabs PR. The UN always backs YOU, not us. Just shows you, that
barbarism
works in this world.
> -They are full of fear
> (more to come in the future of course - unless they embrace peace and
> learn that a minority cannot keep ruling the world forever)<
We'll continue to rule the world as long as we want, or as long as
Allah
allows us. So bend down and kiss my ass, Musselman :) My ass is your
Qibla :)
> Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!<
ONly those who hate themselves to begin with. THere is nothing Israel
can do
that can make self-hating Jews love themselves. Only extraordinarily
expert plastic surgeons can accomplish that :)
JGB
the neutral
> > The Arabs seem to have been getting screwed over more often than not.
> > The theft of land by the European Jews was just another version of a
> > Crusade.
>
> Good.
>
> > Dislodge them? It's their rightful land.
>
> Hogwash; latecoming thieves with no rights or justification except that any
> land muslims want is automatically theirs by the precepts of their religion.
Interesting... who is latecoming here? Jews or Arabs? let's see when
all those arab countries and Israel became independent (Source: CIA
world fact book)
Iraq:
Iraq attained its independence as a kingdom in 1932
Jordan:
The British protectorate of Trans-Jordan became independent in 1946
and in 1949 was remaned into Jordan
Saudi Arabia:
Nedjed annexed Nedjed and Asir and became independent in 1927 as
Hedshas-Nedjed. The country was renamed into Saudi-Arabia in 1932
Yemen:
North Yemen became independent of the Ottoman Empire in 1918
South Yemen became independent in 1967
Egypt:
Egypt Independence Granted by the United Kingdom February 28, 1922
Lebanon:
The country gained independence in 1943 by French
Syria:
January 1, 1944
Israel:
On May 14, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed by United Kingdom
and UN Plan. Jews began moving to the Turkish and later British
controlled region: the British mandate of Palestine, resulting in
their rise from 11% of the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940.
hmmm..... Israel was late by 4 full years!!!! common guys, stop with
this BS propaganda that all Arabs were there living since generations
in peace before the bad Israelis came and took away their land! After
the WW II we had around 100 Mio refugees worldwide. World's task back
then was to bring everyone back to place, with UN as the central
organization. Most Arab countries were established or became
independent only after 1920s! this is not a matter of 1-2 days to
bring back order ! (in a matter of fact, this process is still not
over. see british mandate in korea/china etc that was removed only a
few years ago).
India pakistan same deal in 1950s, but they managed it better with the
refugee problem.
Conclusion: NOBODY IS LATE HERE!! not the Jews, Not the Arabs, not the
muslims, nobody is late. It's a process!
Terence Fformby-Smythe
> >
> > > The Arabs seem to have been getting screwed over more often than not.
> > > The theft of land by the European Jews was just another version of a
> > > Crusade.
> >
> > Good.
> >
> > > Dislodge them? It's their rightful land.
> >
> > Hogwash; latecoming thieves with no rights or justification except that any
> > land muslims want is automatically theirs by the precepts of their religion.
>
> Interesting... who is latecoming here? Jews or Arabs? let's see when
> all those arab countries and Israel became independent (Source: CIA
> world fact book)
It is the Palestine® - Israeli conflict the origin of which is the
desire of the largely immigrant bunch of neighbourhood arabs who were
drawn by the jooovish development projects to grab what wasn't theirs.
To cover such an unpleasant fact the palestinian® mythology was
compiled at the center of which lies a fairy-tale about the
"indigenous Palestinian people"®.
> hmmm..... Israel was late by 4 full years!!!!
Kuwait was formed in 1962! Wow!
Ed
So why is this taking so long to happen, then ?
Ed
Bist du ein Jueden ?
Ken Smith
Can't get a decent bagel here. We have to send out to New York. :)
You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
aren't happy at having their land stolen -- and the good people of Long
Island (by way of example) could hardly be expected to be better about
it....
Farouk Dindar
>
> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
>aren't happy at having their land stolen -- and the good people of Long
>Island (by way of example) could hardly be expected to be better about
>it....
>
I agree.
If the Zionist cult promised its converts a Kingdom after death like
Jehovans witness there would not be major problem.
Farouk Dindar
Chas
> Interesting... who is latecoming here? Jews or Arabs? let's see when
> all those arab countries and Israel became independent
Israel; 4,000 years, and counting.
> hmmm..... Israel was late by 4 full years!!!!
Even Christians have been there longer than muslims- who have no claim at
all to the Holy Land.
> Conclusion: NOBODY IS LATE HERE!! not the Jews, Not the Arabs, not the
> muslims, nobody is late. It's a process!
Then abide by who won the wars, or start another one if you don't like how
the last ones turned out.
Chas
Chas
> Bist du ein Jueden ?
nope; Welsh- God's other chosen people <g>
Additionally, I'm a longtime student of Islam, particularly as reflected in
Indonesian cultural artifacts.
My support of Israel is religious in nature; part of my cultural heritage as
well as that of the Jews.
Jews aren't the only Israelites, and Islam has been our hereditary enemy for
1300 years.
Chas
Chas
> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
You misspelled 'TransJordanian Colonists'.
Chas
Chas
> If the Zionist cult promised its converts a Kingdom after death like
> Jehovans witness there would not be major problem.
Hell; you guys live in refugee camps when you could be frolicking with the
72 virgins, all the little peg-boys, and the spirits of random civilians to
serve you.
What's up with that?
Chas
Terence Fformby-Smythe
There is a big problem though. There are no "indigenous Palestinians"Ž
outside of the palestinian mythologyŽ.
Terence Fformby-Smythe
For you to cry about the "indigenous madagascarians" today like you
cry about nonexistent "indigenous palestinians"Ž? It would be much
better if you found a job and were useful to the international
community.
Ed
"Ed" <u...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S%pec.19661$Ll3.6...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Ed
"Chas" <chasclem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:R7KdnV7RZMa...@comcast.com...
Not that the Arabs "starting another war" would make any difference. Israel
would thrash them within a week.
>
>
Ed
As if the Arabs "starting another war" would make any difference. Israel
would have them whipped in less than a week.
>
>
Ed
This posting is a forgery.
>
>
>
>
Ed
"Ed" <u...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4Ypec.19659$Ll3.6...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
BUBBA
news:5Y2dnbp9cdF...@comcast.com...
> The post which was attributed to Ed is a forgery.
>
How can you tell, er..... Ed?
(Such a coincidence...... TWO Eds on Usenet.)
Bubba
Theodore A. Kaldis
> Finis MacGuiness wrote:
>> Ken Smith wrote:
>>> There seem to be a fair minority of Jews who don't see the need for an
>>> Israel, particularly if it is acquired through unseemly means.
What bollocks! (But then, what else should we expect from Ken Smith?)
>>> As I see it, it might make sense for them to start over in Long Island.
Aren't they already there?
>> Why not Colorado?
> Can't get a decent bagel here.
What would you know about decent bagels? Sure you can find a decent bagel in
Denver. You just have to know where to look. (But you're not going to find
them in the local King Soopers.
> We have to send out to New York. :)
I've got news for you, there are some lousy bagels in New York, too.
> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
What "indegenous" Palestinians? There aren't hardly any of them.
> aren't happy at having their land stolen
Oh, here's a nice one. Call the theives "victims", and call the victims
"thieves".
> -- and the good people of Long Island (by way of example) could hardly be
> expected to be better about it ...
The United States, like Israel, have the necessary military hardware, thank
God, to defend what is rightfully theirs.
--
Theodore A. Kaldis
kal...@worldnet.att.net
Ed
"BUBBA" <bitbucketbot@comcast,net> wrote in message
news:GcSdnSNN3cz...@comcast.com...
Check the ISP addresses.
>
>
>
>
BUBBA
"Ed" <No_Spam@do_not_spam_me.net> wrote in message
news:p_WdnZNb2Ik...@comcast.com...
> > > The post which was attributed to Ed is a forgery.
> > >
> >
> > How can you tell, er..... Ed?
> >
> > (Such a coincidence...... TWO Eds on Usenet.)
> >
> >
> > Bubba
>
> Check the ISP addresses.
>
So..... why are you forging Ed's handle?
Bubba
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
You're the only Ed on Usenet, Rosenberg.
But the email addresses are different.
Of course it's a forgery. Duh.
Ken Smith
> Ken Smith wrote:
>>Finis MacGuiness wrote:
>>
>>>Ken Smith wrote:
[snip]
>>You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
>
> What "indegenous" Palestinians? There aren't hardly any of them.
But their offspring are legion. They were living on the land, and
had every right to be there under British law. The Brits simply carved
them out of existence....
>>aren't happy at having their land stolen
>
> Oh, here's a nice one. Call the theives "victims", and call the victims
> "thieves".
It's precisely what you're doing. Israel agreed to either
restitution or repatriation; you can look it up. Pay the lady....
You know my solution: Pay the Palestinians a fair price for the land,
and use those funds and the considerable Israeli talents to develop the
Palestinian economy. Why couldn't the Gaza be a tourist mecca?
I don't see any end to that morass, unless we dare to think 'outside
the box'. And unless we understand and appreciate the core aspects of
the problem, we can't come up with a realistic solution....
One of my clients is going this summer. Personally, I'd prefer that
she didn't get shot at or blown up whilst visiting. I like my Jews in
one piece, drinking margs down at the Rio or busting moguls at Vail. :)
>>-- and the good people of Long Island (by way of example) could hardly be
>>expected to be better about it ...
>
> The United States, like Israel, have the necessary military hardware, thank
> God, to defend what is rightfully theirs.
And on what objective ground do *European* Jews have rightful title
to the land? They've been gone for centuries....
The challenge is in creating the conditions upon which Israel has the
permission to exist. That may never happen, but it's virtually certain
never to happen if the status quo continues.
Ken Smith
They were there. Ihe European Jews hadn't been there for millenia.
I don't claim a birthright to my ancestral home. Why should they?
Ken Smith
> Ken Smith wrote:
>>Finis MacGuiness wrote:
>>>Ken Smith wrote:
>>
>>>>There seem to be a fair minority of Jews who don't see the need for an
>>>>Israel, particularly if it is acquired through unseemly means.
>>>
> What bollocks!
Try reading an Israeli newspaper for once in your life. Hell, try
reading anything....
> (But then, what else should we expect from Ken Smith?)
Translated, Ted doesn't like my expression of these views, but can't
counter them by articulating a coherent objection. As such, he has to
attack me personally.
>>>>As I see it, it might make sense for them to start over in Long Island.
>
> Aren't they already there?
>
>>>Why not Colorado?
>>
>>Can't get a decent bagel here.
>
> What would you know about decent bagels? Sure you can find a decent bagel in
> Denver. You just have to know where to look. (But you're not going to find
> them in the local King Soopers.
I defer to the *REAL* experts, Goy Boy!
BTov
> better if you found a job and were useful to the international
> community.
rounding up stray camelz in haifa is a useful job
its the palistanian destiny
enjoy already
b'wahahahahahaha!!!
Chas
> > You misspelled 'TransJordanian Colonists'.
> They were there. Ihe European Jews hadn't been there for millenia.
They were brought in to colonize, deliberately. Moreover, they've been
abandoned and used as pawns since.
> I don't claim a birthright to my ancestral home. Why should they?
Because they can?
Maybe they took a page from the Indian Book?
Chas
gab...@hotmail.com
<anwar.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> While hitler killed the Jews, arabs protected them.
Like all those Jews Arabs murdered in Iraq in 1941 ?
the neutral
hey Ken, are seriously saying that the palestinians were living in the
middle east (where Israel is today) before Israel came? do you
seriously thing there was a palestinian civilization? if so, tell me
all about them, I still couldnt find any information on palestinians
BEFORE the late 1960s. Tell me about their people, about their
culture, some type of currency they had, who was their leader? what
did they built or have done in the past that they are proud of? what
was the border? from what civilization in the history do they come
from?
what was their feeling when the ottomans (the turks) took the land
from them.. and later what was their feeling when the british took the
land away from them? did they even fighted? or even tried to resist?
if so, how many died in the battle?
wake up you moron, these were jordanian refugees! and they are till
today not allowed to return to their homeland.. they have tried it
several times and there was even a major battle and killing among
these refugees and Jordan. (enter Black September in google to read on
that).. avoid jewish, islamic and nazi sites please.
Israel has minimum the same right to exist as the other arabic nations
started and became independent during the same time:
Iraq:
Iraq attained its independence as a kingdom in 1932
Jordan:
The British protectorate of Trans-Jordan became independent in 1946
and in 1949 was remaned into Jordan
Saudi Arabia:
Nedjed annexed Nedjed and Asir and became independent in 1927 as
Hedshas-Nedjed. The country was renamed into Saudi-Arabia in 1932
Yemen:
North Yemen became independent of the Ottoman Empire in 1918
South Yemen independent in 1967
Egypt:
Egypt Independence Granted by the United Kingdom
February 28, 1922
Lebanon:
The country gained independence in 1943 by French
Syria:
January 1, 1944
Israel:
Jews began moving to the Turkish and later British controlled region:
the British mandate of Palestine, resulting in their rise from 11% of
the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940. On May 14, 1948, the State of
Israel was proclaimed in territory given for the Jewish state in the
UN plan.
Kuwait: ca. 1960s became a nation
You can't escape the truth.. those 400,000 jordanian refugees back in
1948 have failed several times to return to their homeland Jordan
(nobody can't blaim them for that) and it was only in late 1967 where
they tried a final attempt to return to Jordan with force wich
resulted in major battle among the arabs, which is well documented in
the history as Black September 1970s. ONLY after that time those
refugees has started to claim Israel to be their homeland, NOT
BEFORE!!!! No Arab country cared about Jerusalem to be their capital,
cause Jerusalme has never really ment anything to the moslems.. this
is all arab propaganda... for your information: jews pray towards
jerusalem, cause it is their holy place or whatever... moslems pray
with their back towards jerusalem! cause Mekka is their holy place..
capiche? hope it went now in your brain that jews didnt steel the
land.
the issue today is far more important.. what should we do with the
then 400,000 Jordanian refugees that grown today to 5,5 mio in those
refugee camps? why should israel be responsible for that? Israel has
only 1/10th of 1 % of what Arab Countries have... so why should israel
play the babysitter here?
Deborah Sharavi
>You just made my day, goats and milk, come on ... is this rational
talk ?
>The arabs protected the jews in the arab world.
How were Arabs "protecting" Jews when they massacred them in 1920,
1921, 1929, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, and on?
>The Nazis by definition are anti-semitists. Arabs are semitists.
Arabs were cheering on the Nazis in 1935, when the editor of the
Arabic edition of the Palestine Post wrote that Germany and Italy were
"the only true democracies in the world today. Nazis began funding
Arabs in 1937. Arabs returned the favor by abetting the pro-Nazi
Rashid Ali coup, and creating the Hanjar SS to massacre Bosnian Xians
and Jews.
In July, the Mufti visited the local German counsel-general in
Jerusalem to declare his admiration for the new Germany, and to
solicit German friendship in return...In November and December,
Dr Said Abd al-Fattah al-Iman, president of the Arab Club of
Damascus, traveled to Berlin on behalf of the Mufti to seek
German financial and military help. These appeals did not go
unanswered.
[...]
Meanwhile, the Nazi propaganda apparatus in Palestine itself
was growing rapidly and was staffed by German shipping agents,
commercial travelers, and businessmen, as well as by diplomats
and permanent residents. [T]he director of the German news agency
in Palestine, Dr Franz Reichert, enjoyed cordial relations with the
Mufti.
[...]
When the Prophet Muhammad's birthday was celebrated in May
1937, German and Italian flags and photographs of Hitler and
Mussolini was carried prominently by Arab demonstrates in
Palestine, while Arab newspapers hailed this demonstration
as a "significant gesture of sympathy and respect with the
Nazis and Fascists in their trials at the hands of Jewish
intrigues and international financial pressure."
[...]
By mid-October, violence surpassing the level of the previous
year raged throughout Palestine, with attacks on Jewish
settlements and buses and the murder of Jewish civilians.
For the first time, British patrols were cut down, the new
airport at Lydda was burned, troop trains were derailed, and
the oil line from Mosul to Haifa was badly damaged.
- H.M. Sachar, A History of Israel (Vol 1), p 211
>As much as I scorn muslim islamists, I prefer them to a Nazi like
you.
There's a difference?
Deborah
Ed
"BUBBA" <bitbucketbot@comcast,net> wrote in message
I am the original Ed, better ask the forger.
>
>
Ed
The point is that if you WANTED to live in your ancestral home, wherever it
may be, you would be able to do so without fear of someone trying to kill
you.
>
Ken Smith
> Ken Smith <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:<407B759C...@it.com>...
>>Chas wrote:
>>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote
>>>> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
>>>
>>>You misspelled 'TransJordanian Colonists'.
>>
>> They were there. Ihe European Jews hadn't been there for millenia.
>>
>> I don't claim a birthright to my ancestral home. Why should they?
>
> hey Ken, are seriously saying that the palestinians were living in the
> middle east (where Israel is today) before Israel came?
That's even what the Bible says!
> do you
> seriously thing there was a palestinian civilization? if so, tell me
> all about them, I still couldnt find any information on palestinians
> BEFORE the late 1960s. Tell me about their people, about their
> culture, some type of currency they had, who was their leader? what
> did they built or have done in the past that they are proud of? what
> was the border? from what civilization in the history do they come
> from?
> what was their feeling when the ottomans (the turks) took the land
> from them.. and later what was their feeling when the british took the
> land away from them? did they even fighted? or even tried to resist?
> if so, how many died in the battle?
>
> wake up you moron,
This is why I generally refrain from these discussions -- you simply
cannot have a calm, rational discussion with a religious nutter of any
stripe. Islamists, Zionists, and our sadly virulent home-grown strain
of born again Christians, it scarcely makes a difference.
They'd all kill you for their ancient tribal sky-daddy....
> these were jordanian refugees!
Even still, they were there before the *European* Jews. And under
Commonwealth law, they owned title to their plots of land.
Israel agreed to provide either repatriation or restitution to those
displaced as a condition of United Nations membership. Didn't happen.
What a surprise....
> and they are till
> today not allowed to return to their homeland.. they have tried it
> several times and there was even a major battle and killing among
> these refugees and Jordan. (enter Black September in google to read on
> that).. avoid jewish, islamic and nazi sites please.
>
> Israel has minimum the same right to exist as the other arabic nations
> started and became independent during the same time:
Israel has no "right" to exist. What I'm interested in is creating
the conditions by which it would have *permission* to exist.
Ken Smith
Hardly. In point of fact, I'd have to have their permission.
Ed
"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407C7D63...@it.com...
It's no different with Israel. You have to prove your Jewish heritage. I'm
not exactly sure what the criteria is, but if you meet the criteria, you
have "permission" to live there.
You would have to do the same thing, I suppose, but you could do so without
having to worry about some Islamofascist slob trying to kill you.
>
Ed
"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407C7D43...@it.com...
They already got permission. The UN granted permission in 1947. How
convenient you forget that.
>
Ken Smith
> "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407C7D63...@it.com...
>>Ed wrote:
>>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message
> news:407B759C...@it.com...
>>>>Chas wrote:
>>>>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
>>>>>You misspelled 'TransJordanian Colonists'.
>>>>
>>>> They were there. Ihe European Jews hadn't been there for millenia.
>>>>
>>>> I don't claim a birthright to my ancestral home. Why should they?
>>>
>>>The point is that if you WANTED to live in your ancestral home, wherever
>>>it may be, you would be able to do so without fear of someone trying to
>>>kill you.
>>
>> Hardly. In point of fact, I'd have to have their permission.
>
> It's no different with Israel. You have to prove your Jewish heritage. I'm
> not exactly sure what the criteria is, but if you meet the criteria, you
> have "permission" to live there.
But the indigenous Palestinians, some of whom had title to their
land, duly recognized by the Crown, did not?
>
> You would have to do the same thing, I suppose, but you could do so without
> having to worry about some Islamofascist slob trying to kill you.
I can find no material differnce between the Islamofascist slobs and
the Zionist slobs, except that the Zionist slobs have better toys that
*we* gave them. If we armed the Pallies, at least it would be a fairer
fight.
I don't understand why they can't live side by side in peace, like we
do here in the States. Religious nutters are dangerous, no matter what
stripe they seem to be wearing. :(
Personally, I don't see the damned attraction to the place. It'd be
a little like fighting over Truth or Consequences, New Mexico....
Ken Smith
Subject to terms and conditions which have never been honored, and as
such, the state of Israel is in material breach. And correct me if I'm
wrong on this, but I didn't know the UN had title to any land to give.
*GOD's CREATOR*
> Let's take a moment and sympathize with Israelis:
>
> -Their grand-grand-grand parents were tortured.
> (so what? Armenians, Vietnamese, Kurds, Indians, Communists, Africans
> have all been tortured. That's history, don't bring it her today)
> -They are hated by everybody
> (that's true, I have to agree with that one)
> -They are a minority
> (See, a small country in a wide see of hatred. And they hope to survive
> with violence as their only way out. But by building hatred they are
> destroying their existence. I am half-jew myself, and my grandmother was
> well treated in an arab world, but today, there is no chance, because of the
> bad image ISRAEL has given to JEWS)
> -They have to face anti-semitism everyday
> ( actually, this is just a propaganda made by Israel. There is more
> anti-semitism against arabs than there is against jews)
> -They are full of fear
> (more to come in the future of course - unless they embrace peace and
> learn that a minority cannot keep ruling the world forever)
>
> Israel you make jews ashamed !!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
Thus Spake God's Creator; (I don't forgive nothing!)
SOME OF U.S./ISRAEL U.N. RESOLUTIONS VIOLATIONS.
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0393/9303040.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GOD'S CREATION ( My only sin... )
Wise men stare at the unknown, and boldly seeks answers !
Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...
Today's Terrorists News:
http://www.antiwar.com/
Today's U.S. Terrorists:
http://www.dbr.nu/noin/rogues.html
Terence Fformby-Smythe
> Theodore A. Kaldis wrote:
> > Ken Smith wrote:
> >>Finis MacGuiness wrote:
> >>
> >>>Ken Smith wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >>You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
> >
> > What "indegenous" Palestinians? There aren't hardly any of them.
>
> But their offspring are legion.
Meaning: any one who wants to be a palestinian® -- join the line.
> They were living on the land, and
> had every right to be there under British law. The Brits simply carved
> them out of existence....
They did not accept the British law.
> >>aren't happy at having their land stolen
> >
> > Oh, here's a nice one. Call the theives "victims", and call the victims
> > "thieves".
>
> It's precisely what you're doing. Israel agreed to either
> restitution or repatriation; you can look it up. Pay the lady....
> You know my solution: Pay the Palestinians a fair price for the land,
> and use those funds and the considerable Israeli talents to develop the
> Palestinian economy. Why couldn't the Gaza be a tourist mecca?
A much better solution: pay for the orderly relocation of
palestinians® to the great greener void of the lands of their
brethren. For their own sake of course with participation of the
international community in building housing for them and creating
jobs.
It would be a commendable task for the international community to take
up instead of useless wailing and weeping. Let them do something very
useful, especially in view that a proposed state of palestine® will be
dead before it is born because of the objective geographic,
economical, sociological and political reasons.
To-date palestinians® have stolen enough funds to operate and support
a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier for 16 years meaning they could have
had their tourist mecca a long time ago... and maybe an aircraft.
the neutral
> do here in the States. Religious nutters are dangerous, no matter what
> stripe they seem to be wearing. :(
I agree with you on why they cant live side by side.. I am not in
favor of Israel or Jews, or whatever terms they use to describe them..
neither I am in favor for arabs or moslems etc.. I look it from a
logical perspective.
Your answer to why not living side by side is provided end of this
text,
I never said that they were no people living in that area before
Israel came, I said, there was no such thing as Palestinians claiming
that land before end 1960s..
the period from 1919 to 1970 is the time where all those arab nations
became independent including Israel. You have to realize that arabs
wouldnt have a problem with Israel if they were moslems. Thus all the
wars..
After all, Israel proved the world that they can leave in peace with
the arabs (Egypt, Jordan, Syria).. in a matter of fact, when Egypt
declared war to Israel some 30 years ago.. not only did Israel won the
war, but also captured the entire Sinai land. As you know Sinai is 3x
the size of Israel with Oil resources and all that.
Israel however agreed to return the land they have captured to Egypt
for ONE SINGLE REASON: for peace. Same game with Jordan and Syria..
But the question remains why they cant do that with the Palestinians?
(they dont even have oil or water on that land.. so why?)
Israel, the UN, the US and the European Union, and the Arab Nations
agreed to gave Palestinians there own state with 97% of region they
were asking and you know who didnt accept the offer?! guess who? Mr.
Dr.Prof. Yassir Arafat..
This is why no arab nation gives a shit about the palestinians!
Cause those Jordanian Refugees think they can own the whole place.
This is due to the brainwashing activities that is going on. I found
this website which is not 100% objective but it more or less gives the
answer to your question "why not living side by side".. It still uses
indisbutable facts that you can check yourself.
http://www.infoisrael.net/images/articles/what_do_the_palestinians_want.pps
-----------------------------------------------------
if palestinians would put down their weapons today, they will have
peace and their own state by the UN. If Israel would put down their
weapons today, there will be no Israel.
_______________________________________________________
Terence Fformby-Smythe
> Ed wrote:
> > "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407C7D63...@it.com...
> >>Ed wrote:
> >>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message
> news:407B759C...@it.com...
> >>>>Chas wrote:
> >>>>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous Palestinians
>
> >>>>>You misspelled 'TransJordanian Colonists'.
> >>>>
> >>>> They were there. Ihe European Jews hadn't been there for millenia.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't claim a birthright to my ancestral home. Why should they?
> >>>
> >>>The point is that if you WANTED to live in your ancestral home, wherever
> >>>it may be, you would be able to do so without fear of someone trying to
> >>>kill you.
> >>
> >> Hardly. In point of fact, I'd have to have their permission.
> >
> > It's no different with Israel. You have to prove your Jewish heritage. I'm
> > not exactly sure what the criteria is, but if you meet the criteria, you
> > have "permission" to live there.
>
> But the indigenous Palestinians, some of whom had title to their
> land, duly recognized by the Crown, did not?
Landowners sold their land and left duly so. A largely immigrant arab
mass from the neighbourhood had never hold any material "title" to
begin with.
> > You would have to do the same thing, I suppose, but you could do so without
> > having to worry about some Islamofascist slob trying to kill you.
>
> I can find no material differnce between the Islamofascist slobs and
> the Zionist slobs, except that the Zionist slobs have better toys that
> *we* gave them.
It duly happens when the field of vision is materially closed.
> If we armed the Pallies, at least it would be a fairer
> fight.
Then the whole dispute would have been duly and materially and
*quickly* ended.
> I don't understand why they can't live side by side in peace, like we
> do here in the States. Religious nutters are dangerous, no matter what
> stripe they seem to be wearing. :(
>
> Personally, I don't see the damned attraction to the place.
The US?
> (circumcised)
Ed
"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407CA340...@it.com...
by the Arab countries since they immediately declared war and invaded Israel
before the ink could dry on the UN resolution.
and as
> such, the state of Israel is in material breach.
Only because of the Arab countries dogged and criminal violation of the
ORIGINAL UN resolution.
And correct me if I'm
> wrong on this, but I didn't know the UN had title to any land to give.
The British, who were the "owners" of the land, had the title to partition
the land. It was sanctioned via resolution in the UN.
>
>
Ed
"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407CA32A...@it.com...
> Ed wrote:
> > "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message
news:407C7D63...@it.com...
> >>Ed wrote:
> >>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message
> > news:407B759C...@it.com...
> >>>>Chas wrote:
> >>>>>"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> You're missing my more subtle point: that the indigenous
Palestinians
>
> >>>>>You misspelled 'TransJordanian Colonists'.
> >>>>
> >>>> They were there. Ihe European Jews hadn't been there for millenia.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't claim a birthright to my ancestral home. Why should they?
> >>>
> >>>The point is that if you WANTED to live in your ancestral home,
wherever
> >>>it may be, you would be able to do so without fear of someone trying to
> >>>kill you.
> >>
> >> Hardly. In point of fact, I'd have to have their permission.
> >
> > It's no different with Israel. You have to prove your Jewish heritage.
I'm
> > not exactly sure what the criteria is, but if you meet the criteria, you
> > have "permission" to live there.
>
> But the indigenous Palestinians, some of whom had title to their
> land, duly recognized by the Crown, did not?
The vast majority of Palestinians are NOT indigenous. They are refugees
from other Arab countries, notably Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, with a
smattering of Saudis.
> >
> > You would have to do the same thing, I suppose, but you could do so
without
> > having to worry about some Islamofascist slob trying to kill you.
>
> I can find no material differnce between the Islamofascist slobs and
> the Zionist slobs, except that the Zionist slobs have better toys that
> *we* gave them. If we armed the Pallies, at least it would be a fairer
> fight.
Perhaps. But if the Pallies only accepted the existence of Israel from day
one, there wouldn't have to be a fight at all.
Ken Smith
> "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407CA340...@it.com...
[snip]
>>And correct me if I'm
>>wrong on this, but I didn't know the UN had title to any land to give.
>
> The British, who were the "owners" of the land, had the title to partition
> the land. It was sanctioned via resolution in the UN.
Not exactly -- and the devil is in the details. Commonwealth law
does not allow for it, for native title survives the transfer of
sovereignty. The Crown did not have the legal authority to
extinguish title.
Ken Smith
> "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407CA32A...@it.com...
>> I can find no material difference between the Islamofascist slobs and
>>the Zionist slobs, except that the Zionist slobs have better toys that
>>*we* gave them. If we armed the Pallies, at least it would be a fairer
>>fight.
>
> Perhaps. But if the Pallies only accepted the existence of Israel from day
> one, there wouldn't have to be a fight at all.
Aaaaahhh. The Bobby Knight theory.
As long as the rapist gets his rocks off, he doesn't mind if the
woman doesn't put up a fight. End result is still the same, though.
Ed
"Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407E785C...@it.com...
How so? With the partition, Israel was more than happy to take what was
allotted to them. It was the Arabs that refused to accept THEIR share of
the partition. They wanted it ALL!!
So yes, Israel, as "the woman" was forced into putting up a fight....
repeatedly!
>
LawsonE
Originally, the British promised the entire region, as-a-whole, autonomy as
a democracy. Dividing it into Jewish and non-Jewish sectors wasn't part of
any deal pitched to the Middle Eastern countries until AFTER WWII. In other
words, of course the "Arabs wanted it all" -that is what Britain promised
them.
That doesn't have any political significance today, but its part of the
historical perspective that Moslem leaders use to inflame their followers
against Israel and the West.
Terence Fformby-Smythe
And the devil is in one detail: you post pseudo-legal bullshit and
bollocks.
In 1788, British common law recognised three methods by which the
Crown could legitimately acquire new territory and claim sovereignty
over it. If the land was already occupied, the Crown could claim that
it had acquired the land from the Indigenous peoples by:
1. military conquest.
2. by cession. If the land was terra nullius it could claim that it
had acquired the territory by 3)occupation.
If a colony was established on land acquired by conquest or by
cession, the British common law was obliged to recognise and respect
both Indigenous property rights in the land and the larger systems of
Indigenous law and government (nonexistent in Palestine after the
defeat of the Ottomans).
If a colony was established on land acquired by occupation or
settlement, the British common law commenced operation unburdened by
the obligation to recognise Indigenous law (nonexistent after the
defeat of the Ottomans), but was still required to respect indigenous
property rights in the land.
Admit to intentional misinterpretation, stop bothering misc.legal and
us.legal with your crap spam and let us move palestiniansŽ to the
greener pastures of the great arab void, inshallah.
Bigot
"Terence Fformby-Smythe" <bab...@mighty.co.za> wrote in message
It is quite probable that the Americans when they find out how the Jooze and
their gentile goyim have lied and deceived them for sixty years will unleash
such ferocity against the state of Israel and amongst the Jooze in their own
heartlands, that the Jooze both as a race and a religion will cease to
exist, and that can only be a "Good" thing for the peoples of the world.
The lessons learned from this encounter will in short order produce amongst
the Islamic hordes such fear they might well become apostate or convert to
other religions thus consigning Islam to the dustbowl of history.
Sheldon Liberman
Bigot wrote:
> "Terence Fformby-Smythe" <bab...@mighty.co.za> wrote in message
> It is quite probable that the Americans when they find out how the Jooze and
> their gentile goyim have lied and deceived them for sixty years will unleash
> such ferocity against the state of Israel and amongst the Jooze in their own
> heartlands, that the Jooze both as a race and a religion will cease to
> exist, and that can only be a "Good" thing for the peoples of the world.
The "Jooze" will continue to exist long after the day that the only
record of your existence will be from your file at the psyche ward.
Bigot
"Sheldon Liberman" <sheldon....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:407FC857...@sympatico.ca...
>
>
> Bigot wrote:
> > "Terence Fformby-Smythe" <bab...@mighty.co.za> wrote in message
> > It is quite probable that the Americans when they find out how the Jooze
and
> > their gentile goyim have lied and deceived them for sixty years will
unleash
> > such ferocity against the state of Israel and amongst the Jooze in their
own
> > heartlands, that the Jooze both as a race and a religion will cease to
> > exist, and that can only be a "Good" thing for the peoples of the world.
>
> The "Jooze" will continue to exist long after the day that the only
> record of your existence will be from your file at the psyche ward.
Thank you Dr. Liberman for that unsolicited but very welcome assesment of my
mental condition, how much do I owe you?
Sheldon Liberman
Bigot wrote:
> "Sheldon Liberman" <sheldon....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:407FC857...@sympatico.ca...
>
>>
>>Bigot wrote:
>>
>>>"Terence Fformby-Smythe" <bab...@mighty.co.za> wrote in message
>>>It is quite probable that the Americans when they find out how the Jooze
>>
> and
>
>>>their gentile goyim have lied and deceived them for sixty years will
>>
> unleash
>
>>>such ferocity against the state of Israel and amongst the Jooze in their
>>
> own
>
>>>heartlands, that the Jooze both as a race and a religion will cease to
>>>exist, and that can only be a "Good" thing for the peoples of the world.
>>
>>The "Jooze" will continue to exist long after the day that the only
>>record of your existence will be from your file at the psyche ward.
>
>
> Thank you Dr. Liberman for that unsolicited but very welcome assesment of my
> mental condition, how much do I owe you?
Nothing in terms of dollars and cents. Simply resolve not to pay your
debt with an axe or an icepick. You never know....
Ed
"Bigot" <som...@microshaft.com> wrote in message
news:c5oge5$3sebl$1...@ID-229054.news.uni-berlin.de...
Told you he was mad :-)
BTov
> Ken Smith <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:<407E7852...@it.com>...
> > Ed wrote:
> > > "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407CA340...@it.com...
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > >>And correct me if I'm
> > >>wrong on this, but I didn't know the UN had title to any land to give.
> > >
> > > The British, who were the "owners" of the land, had the title to partition
> > > the land. It was sanctioned via resolution in the UN.
> >
> > Not exactly -- and the devil is in the details. Commonwealth law
> > does not allow for it, for native title survives the transfer of
> > sovereignty. The Crown did not have the legal authority to
> > extinguish title.
>
> And the devil is in one detail: you post pseudo-legal bullshit and
> bollocks.
b'llshit and b'llocks is the b'nai b'riths job
> In 1788, British common law recognised three methods by which the
> Crown could legitimately acquire new territory and claim sovereignty
> over it. If the land was already occupied, the Crown could claim that
> it had acquired the land from the Indigenous peoples by:
> 1. military conquest.
b'ritish common law is b'llocks
except in b'ritain
tell the tony blair
> 2. by cession. If the land was terra nullius it could claim that it
> had acquired the territory by 3)occupation.
> If a colony was established on land acquired by conquest or by
> cession, the British common law was obliged to recognise and respect
> both Indigenous property rights in the land and the larger systems of
> Indigenous law and government (nonexistent in Palestine after the
> defeat of the Ottomans).
> If a colony was established on land acquired by occupation or
> settlement, the British common law commenced operation unburdened by
> the obligation to recognise Indigenous law (nonexistent after the
> defeat of the Ottomans), but was still required to respect indigenous
> property rights in the land.
> Admit to intentional misinterpretation, stop bothering misc.legal and
> us.legal with your crap spam and let us move palestiniansŽ to the
> greener pastures of the great arab void, inshallah.
and leave israel to the joovish immigrants
its a g-d-given mitzvah
but its a g-d-forsaken place
enjoy already ;)
Bigot
>
>
> Bigot wrote:
> > "Sheldon Liberman" <sheldon....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:407FC857...@sympatico.ca...
> >
> >>
> >>Bigot wrote:
> >>
> >>>"Terence Fformby-Smythe" <bab...@mighty.co.za> wrote in message
> >>>It is quite probable that the Americans when they find out how the
Jooze
> >>
> > and
> >
> >>>their gentile goyim have lied and deceived them for sixty years will
> >>
> > unleash
> >
> >>>such ferocity against the state of Israel and amongst the Jooze in
their
> >>
> > own
> >
> >>>heartlands, that the Jooze both as a race and a religion will cease to
> >>>exist, and that can only be a "Good" thing for the peoples of the
world.
> >>
> >>The "Jooze" will continue to exist long after the day that the only
> >>record of your existence will be from your file at the psyche ward.
> >
> >
> > Thank you Dr. Liberman for that unsolicited but very welcome assesment
of my
> > mental condition, how much do I owe you?
>
> Nothing in terms of dollars and cents. Simply resolve not to pay your
> debt with an axe or an icepick. You never know....
I don't think I'll be popping over to Mexico in the near future, besides
Trotsky was important:-))
Bigot
God there is a dearth of trick cyclists on this NG, thank you Ed for your
professional expertise, and thank you for taking time out of your undoubted
busy schedule to analyse my mental state:-))
Will you be sending me your bill or should I make a donation to your
Mother's vagina like your Father(whoever he was) did:-)))?
Terence Fformby-Smythe
Don't bother me with voodooism. For chicken bones ask your nearest KFC.
Terence Fformby-Smythe
> bab...@mighty.co.za (Terence Fformby-Smythe) wrote in message news:<cec18032.04041...@posting.google.com>...
> > Ken Smith <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:<407E7852...@it.com>...
> > > Ed wrote:
> > > > "Ken Smith" <for...@it.com> wrote in message news:407CA340...@it.com...
> > > [snip]
> > > >>And correct me if I'm
> > > >>wrong on this, but I didn't know the UN had title to any land to give.
> > > >
> > > > The British, who were the "owners" of the land, had the title to partition
> > > > the land. It was sanctioned via resolution in the UN.
> > >
> > > Not exactly -- and the devil is in the details. Commonwealth law
> > > does not allow for it, for native title survives the transfer of
> > > sovereignty. The Crown did not have the legal authority to
> > > extinguish title.
> >
> > And the devil is in one detail: you post pseudo-legal bullshit and
> > bollocks.
>
> b'llshit and b'llocks is the b'nai b'riths job
We all are b'rits in b'ritain. And I will be more b'ritish when I am
read yiddish kadish.
Happily Youz,
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
Ed
No problem, bigot.
> Will you be sending me your bill or should I make a donation to your
> Mother's vagina like your Father(whoever he was) did:-)))?
Hate to burst your bubble, but both of my parents are deceased.
>
>
Bigot
should I ask him?
Don't worry Sonny,I'm still capable of necrophilia, now just say where you
threw her and I'll drop everything and rush over there.
You didn't bury her at sea or burn her did you?
Ed
I figured as much....
Enough of you. PLONK
the neutral
> > > hey Ken, are seriously saying that the palestinians were living in the
> > > middle east (where Israel is today) before Israel came?
> >
> > That's even what the Bible says!
wrong, that's why your outcome.. you gonna fix assumptions about the
history first, this way you will get a better answer.. cause I see you
can think correctly based on the assumptions you are making.
this paragraph I wrote can help you a little bit to get the correct
facts.
> >
> > > do you
> > > seriously thing there was a palestinian civilization? if so, tell me
> > > all about them, I still couldnt find any information on palestinians
> > > BEFORE the late 1960s. Tell me about their people, about their
> > > culture, some type of currency they had, who was their leader? what
> > > did they built or have done in the past that they are proud of? what
> > > was the border? from what civilization in the history do they come
> > > from?
> > > what was their feeling when the ottomans (the turks) took the land
> > > from them.. and later what was their feeling when the british took the
> > > land away from them? did they even fighted? or even tried to resist?
> > > if so, how many died in the battle?
> > >
> >
> > This is why I generally refrain from these discussions -- you simply
> > cannot have a calm, rational discussion with a religious nutter of any
> > stripe.
you are right, i was a not very calm when I wrote, so I appolize,
especially after seeing that your assumptions are wrong. so, it's not
really your fault.
However, still, none of the questions I was asking are not legitimate.
You can ask these questions on any country or society/civilization..
don't you agree?
please do me a favor and research on two things:
See how the terms and definitions of palestina has been used over the
last 3000-4000 years.. comparing to end of 1960s.. this will help.
> >
> > They'd all kill you for their ancient tribal sky-daddy....
> >
> > > these were jordanian refugees!
> >
> > Even still, they were there before the *European* Jews. And under
> > Commonwealth law, they owned title to their plots of land.
the commonwealth law story has no place here at all, but I see where
you are going.
Again, if you would understand the basic 101 stuff about who was here
first and who took what away from whom and when and how etc... you
would not need to bring terms like *European* with stars and all kind
of quote signs etc.. this is all a result from not knowing what you
want to say.. stop going on jewish and neo nazi and arabic websites,
they are too biased.
find out when all those arab nations in the middle east have emerged
and why and who decided what etc? once you have the basics, create
your OWN opinion and not mine and not from other opinions. thing logic
and use common sense.
the neutral
> > > Israel has minimum the same right to exist as the other arabic nations
> > > started and became independent during the same time:
> >
> > Israel has no "right" to exist. What I'm interested in is creating
> > the conditions by which it would have *permission* to exist.
>
> They already got permission. The UN granted permission in 1947. How
> convenient you forget that.
>
exist and all that!. let's forget the UN, the zionist, the jews, the
americans, the europeans, everything else.. ok?
now..
we all agree that most arab nations like egypt ,syria etc became
independent after 1919 and 1970 with kuwait the last one, agree? (see
world fact book.)
also Israel became independent in 1948, agree?
again, we dont worry now HOW any of those countries got independent.
now..
we got a group called paelstinians which claim today that they want to
have an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital due to its
holiness for moslems, right?
ok..
now, you tell me why this group that was supposedly living there
before Israel came, never claimed the land or its capital to be
Jerusalem?
or to go a step further..
if this city Jerusalem is soo important to the moslem world, why non
of the OTHER Arabic nations have claimed this city to be their capital
before the jews came?
want more? no problem..
Jordan captured the city Jerusalem from early 1948 to 1967 and it was
fully under their control and not the jews or israel or anybody else.
During all that time, why nobody including this group called today
Palestinians have made the city to be their capital?
why, why why?
if ANY part of my questions asked are not legitimate, you come with an
legimite answer.
the fact is that the palestinian problem is a refugee problem (with
refugee that you hear on TV daily, we dont mean refugees that were
kicked out of Israel! we mean refugees from Jordan that are not
allowed to return to their original homeland, even thought they tried
and even attempted to attack their king of Jordan so they can get back
to their original homes (this event is known as "Black September
1970s").
now, completely hopeless after their final attempt in late 1960s..
these refugees have started to create the PLO and identify themselves
as Palestinians, cause this region was called so for the last 2000
years. Israels mistake was that they didnt named the state
"palestina", but "Israel" instead.
there would be way less confusion and some people in the western
world wouldnt think that "Palestinians" are the legitimate people to
live in Israel with Jerusalem as its captial.
why is jerusalem holy to moslem ?(from another group discussion). they
pray towards Mekka which is in complete opposite direction! they pray
with their back towards Jerusalem...
If we see the root of the problem, I dont see why we blame the
israelis for all that. Today is different story, but we shall always
grabb the problem by the horn, or not?
Darwin
[..]
> Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims belong to expansionist religions,
> which have been known to advance their peculiar superstitions by way of
> knife and sword.
And in knife and sword issues, they are not different from the "people
from the Book".
--
-darwin-
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Darwin
[..]
> The point is that if you WANTED to live in your ancestral home, wherever
> it
> may be, you would be able to do so without fear of someone trying to kill
> you.
Why?
What's the logic of this argument?
If my grandparents were from Mexico, why would Mexicans have to forcefully
accept me there?
Darwin
[..]
> How so? With the partition, Israel was more than happy to take what was
> allotted to them. It was the Arabs that refused to accept THEIR share of
> the partition. They wanted it ALL!!
Drop that line, Ed.
When the Arabs attacked in 48, Israel had already invaded large parts of
the future Palestinian state.
Darwin
[..]
> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/balfour.html
[..]
> nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights
> of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine
The "non-existant" Palestinians, according to many Zionists.
Darwin
wrote:
[..]
> My support of Israel is religious in nature; part of my cultural
> heritage as
> well as that of the Jews.
> Jews aren't the only Israelites, and Islam has been our hereditary enemy
> for
> 1300 years.
This explains a lot.
Chas is just another fervorous religious fanatic who believes that Israel
must exist at all costs to make possible the second coming of Christ.
There's no argument than can win such a discussion.
Sorry Chas, you have been killfiled.
Darwin
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:16:23 -0400, "anwar"
> <anwar.m...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> While hitler killed the Jews, arabs protected them.
>
> Like all those Jews Arabs murdered in Iraq in 1941 ?
It is well known that Zionists had a part on those massacres.
Go look for another argument.
Alun
news:7e9dee49.04041...@posting.google.com:
50% of Palestinians have at least some DNA from ancient Judea, although on
average it is only 10% of their DNA. So, most of their ancestors did come
from other parts of the Middle East, but a significant minority came from
right there where they are. The proportion of their forebears that lived
there immediately before 1948 would naturally be far higher.
OTOH, at least 20% of Israelis have none of this DNA, i.e. 1 in 5 Israelis
is descended only from later converts to Judaism.
These numbers could be used in a variety of ways, but one thing that won't
work is to pretend that no arabs lived in Palestine before 1948 (which of
course included present day Israel and Jordan as well as present day
Palestine). And of course we know that many of them lived in what is now
Israel, as most of those became refugees.
Another incontrovertible fact is that Israel has in the past elected
leaders with criminal convictions for terrorist acts against the former
British authorities that then controlled Palestine, e.g. Menachem Begin.
z
>
> 50% of Palestinians have at least some DNA from ancient Judea, although on
> average it is only 10% of their DNA. So, most of their ancestors did come
> from other parts of the Middle East, but a significant minority came from
> right there where they are. The proportion of their forebears that lived
> there immediately before 1948 would naturally be far higher.
>
> OTOH, at least 20% of Israelis have none of this DNA, i.e. 1 in 5 Israelis
> is descended only from later converts to Judaism.
Genetic evidence links Jews to their ancient tribe
By Judy Siegel November, 20 2001
JERUSALEM (November 20) - Genetic evidence continues to provide
additional proof to the claims that the Jewish people are descended
from a common ancient Israelite father: Despite being separated for
over 1,000 years, Sephardi Jews of North African origin are
genetically indistinguishable from their brethren from Iraq, according
to The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
They also proved that Sephardi Jews are very close genetically to the
Jews of Kurdistan, and only slight differences exist between these two
groups and Ashkenazi Jews from Europe.
These conclusions are reached in an article published recently in the
American Journal of Human Genetics and written by Prof. Ariella
Oppenheim of the Hebrew University (HU) and Hadassah-University
Hospital in Ein Kerem.
Others involved are German doctoral student Almut Nebel, Dr. Marina
Faerman of HU, Dr. Dvora Filon of Hadassah-University Hospital, and
other colleagues from Germany and India.
The researchers conducted blood tests of Ashkenazi, Sephardi and
Kurdish Jews and examined their Y chromosomes, which are carried only
by males. They then compared them with those of various Arab groups -
Palestinians, Beduins, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese - as well as
to non-Arab populations from Transcaucasia - Turks, Armenians and
Moslem Kurds.
The study is based on 526 Y chromosomes typed by the Israeli team and
additional data on 1,321 individuals from 12 populations. The typing
of the Jewish groups was performed at the National Genome Center at
HU's Silberman Institute of Life Sciences.
The Fertile Crescent of the Middle East was one of the few centers in
which the transition from hunting-gathering to permanent settlement
and agriculture took place. Genetic studies suggest that migrating
Neolithic farmers dispersed their technological innovations and
domesticated animals from the Middle East towards Europe, North Africa
and Southwest Asia.
Studies of Y chromosomes have become powerful tools for the
investigation of the genetic history of males, since these chromosomes
are transmitted from fathers to sons.
Surprisingly, the study shows a closer genetic affinity by Jews to the
non-Jewish, non-Arab populations in the northern part of the Middle
East than to Arabs. These findings are consistent with known cultural
links that existed among populations in the Fertile Crescent in early
history, and indicate that the Jews are direct descendants of the
early Middle Eastern core populations, which later divided into
distinct ethnic groups speaking different languages.
Previous investigations by the HU researchers suggested a common
origin for Jewish and non-Jewish populations living in the Middle
East. The current study refines and delineates that connection.
It is believed that the majority of today's Jews - not including
converts and non-Jews with whom Jews intermarried - descended from the
ancient Israelis that lived in the historic Land of Israel until the
destruction of the Second Temple and their dispersal into the
Diaspora.
The researchers say that a genetic analysis of the chromosomes of Jews
from various countries show that there was practically no genetic
intermixing between them and the host populations among which they
were scattered during their dispersion - whether in Eastern Europe,
Spain, Portugal or North Africa.
A particularly intriguing case illustrating this is that of the
Kurdish Jews, said to be the descendants of the Ten Tribes of Israel
who were exiled in 723 BCE. to the area known today as Kurdistan,
located in Northern Iraq, Iran and Eastern Turkey. They continued to
live there as a separate entity until their immigration to Israel in
the 1950s. The Kurdish Jews of today show a much greater affinity to
their fellow Jews elsewhere than to the Kurdish Moslems.
Thursday, December 06, 2001
World Peace & Genetics:
Why Not?
LOS ANGELES, California—December 6, 2001 (OTVNewswire)— Elsevier
Science calls itself the "market leader in the publication and
dissemination of literature covering the broad spectrum of scientific
endeavors." It is part of Reed Elsevier, the British/Dutch global
information provider and publisher. Last week, Elsevier Science asked
libraries and subscribers to its Human Immunology magazine to tear out
the pages of a report appearing in its current issue. Under threat of
mass resignations by members of its New York staff, publisher Nicole
Sucio-Foca, of New York's Columbia University, agreed to the
self-censorship. The research paper, written by Professor Antonio
Arnaiz-Villena, is entitled "The Origin of Palestinians and Their
Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations."
According to Robin McKie of The Observer (London), the report showed
that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost
identical: "Such a drastic act of self-censorship is unprecedented in
research publishing and has created widespread disquiet, generating
fears that it may involve the suppression of scientific work that
questions Biblical dogma."
By studying genetic similarities among Middle Eastern populations,
the report concluded that Palestinians and Jews of the region are
closely related. But with bloodshed escalating in the real estate
wars of the Middle East, such a theory has geo-political implications
insofar as those wars are based, in large part, on Biblical claims of
eminent domain.
The report has been yanked from Human Immunology's website, as well as
subsequent runs of hard copy editions. Notices of Retraction have
been sent to all websites posting the offending article. The report's
author, Arnaiz-Villena, has been sacked from the journal's editorial
board. Arnaiz-Villena, of Complutence University in Madrid, told The
Observer, "I am stunned."
Meanwhile, similar genetic research is being conducted throughout the
world, many yielding the same results. Michael Hammer, a University
of Arizona associate research scientist in the Arizona Research
Laboratory, has been performing studies on the Y chromosome to help
answer questions of Biblical significance related to the Jewish
Diaspora, or dispersion of the Jewish people.
Hammer said that his research suggests that the world's Jewish
populations closely resemble Syrians, Palestinians and Lebanese,
indicating a common ancestry originating in the Middle East about
4,000 years ago.
At the University of California School of Medicine, San Francisco, Dr.
Joel J. Elias, Professor (Emeritus) takes on the difficult task of
presenting more scientific findings in his article The Genetics of
Modern Assyrians and their Relationship to Other People of the Middle
East.
Prof. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza, senior author of the landmark book "The
History and Geography of Human Genes," came to the conclusion "that
Jews have maintained considerable genetic similarity among themselves
and with people from the Middle East, with whom they have common
origins." Cavalli-Sforza is considered one of the preeminent human
population geneticists in the world.
Results of direct DNA analysis of the Y chromosome showed that
"Despite their long-term residence in different countries and
isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not
significantly different from one another at the genetic level" and
there was an "extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle
Eastern populations [Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Druze, Saudi
Arabians] observed here ...[that] supports the hypothesis of a common
Middle Eastern origin" of these populations dating back about 4,000
years."
According to Elias: "The Palestinians and Syrians were so close to the
Jews in genetic characteristics that they ‘mapped within the central
cluster of Jewish populations.'"
As one of the Israeli scientists on the team said, "Eventually people
will realize that they are not that different," leaving Professor
Elias to ponder the notion: "Peace through Genetics?"
Dr. Harry Ostrer, a researcher in the Department of Genetics at New
York University Medical School, contends that while the Ashkenazi Jews
are not very close genetically to European gentiles, they are
genetically close to some Arab groups.
Reinforcing this evidence is a study by Aravinda Chakravarti, director
of the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine at Johns Hopkins
University, who found that a certain genetic mutation causing
deafness, DFNB1, affects Jews, Palestinians and other groups of the
Mediterranean. Recognizing the historical ramifications of this study,
Dr. Ostrer pointed out that Jews and Palestinians probably had common
ancestors not so long ago. "It's commonly believed among historians
that many of the people that became Palestinian Arabs were once
Jewish," he said.
According to David Pollack of the Forward, the irony was not lost on
Dr. Ostrer: "The Arabs don't happen to 'remember' that anymore," he
said, pointing to the hostilities of Arab groups toward Israel. He was
also able, however, to see the situation from the opposite
perspective. "Conversely, maybe if the Israelis 'remembered' [that the
Arabs used to be Jews], they'd be nicer to them."
Indeed, by repressing Arnaiz-Villena's research paper, Elsevier
Science may have deprived the very "science" it promotes from
achieving one of science's more lofty goals -- that of making the
world a better place to live.
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool
of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes.
M. F. Hammer, A. J. Redd, E. T. Wood, M. R. Bonner, H. Jarjanazi, T.
Karafet, S. Santachiara-Benerecetti, A. Oppenheim, M. A. Jobling, T.
Jenkins, H. Ostrer, and B. Bonné-Tamir. Proceedings of the National
Academy of Sciences, May 9, 2000
Y Chromosome Bears Witness to Story of the Jewish Diaspora
By NICHOLAS WADE
With a new technique based on the male or Y chromosome, biologists
have
traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that
began
in 586 B.C. to the modern communities of Europe and the Middle East.
The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to
a
remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from
their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or
conversion into Judaism over the centuries.
Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
yardstick
of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities closely resemble
not
only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese,
suggesting
that all are descended from a common ancestral population that
inhabited
the Middle East some four thousand years ago.
Dr. Lawrence H. Schiffman, chairman of the department of Hebrew and
Judaic Studies at New York University, said the study fit with
historical evidence that Jews originated in the Near East and with
biblical evidence suggesting that there were a variety of families and
types in the original population. He said the finding would cause "a
lot
of discussion of the relationship of scientific evidence to the manner
in which we evaluate long-held academic and personal religious
positions," like the question of who is a Jew.
The study, reported in today's Proceedings of the National Academy of
Sciences, was conducted by Dr. Michael F. Hammer of the University of
Arizona with colleagues in the United States, Italy, Israel, England
and
South Africa. The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and
refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist
mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from
the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism.
The analysis by Dr. Hammer and colleagues is based on the Y
chromosome,
which is passed unchanged from father to son. Early in human
evolution,
all but one of the Y chromosomes were lost as their owners had no
children or only daughters, so that all Y chromosomes today are
descended from that of a single genetic Adam who is estimated to have
lived about 140,000 years ago.
In principle, all men should therefore carry the identical sequence of
DNA letters on their Y chromosomes, but in fact occasional
misspellings
have occurred, and because each misspelling is then repeated in
subsequent generations, the branching lineages of errors form a family
tree rooted in the original Adam.
These variant spellings are in DNA that is not involved in the genes
and
therefore has no effect on the body. But the type and abundance of the
lineages in each population serve as genetic signature by which to
compare different populations.
Based on these variations, Dr. Hammer identified 19 variations in the
Y
chromosome family tree.
The ancestral Middle East population from which both Arabs and Jews
are
descended was a mixture of men from eight of these lineages.
Among major contributors to the ancestral Arab-Jewish population were
men who carried what Dr. Hammer calls the "Med" lineage. This Y
chromosome is found all round the Mediterranean and in Europe and may
have been spread by the Neolithic inventors of agriculture or perhaps
by
the voyages of sea-going people like the Phoenicians.
Another lineage common in the ancestral Arab-Jewish gene pool is found
among today's Ethiopians and may have reached the Middle East by men
who
traveled down the Nile. But present-day Ethiopian Jews lack some of
the
other lineages found in Jewish communities, and overall are more like
non-Jewish Ethiopians than other Jewish populations, at least in terms
of their Y chromosome lineage pattern.
The ancestral pattern of lineages is recognizable in today's Arab and
Jewish populations, but is distinct from that of European populations
and both groups differ widely from sub-Saharan Africans.
Each Arab and Jewish community has its own flavor of the ancestral
pattern, reflecting their different genetic histories. Roman Jews have
a
pattern quite similar to that of Ashkenazis, the Jewish community of
Eastern Europe. Dr. Hammer said the finding accorded with the
hypothesis
that Roman Jews were the ancestors of the Ashkenazis.
Despite the Ashkenazi Jews' long residence in Europe, their Y
signature
has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans.
On the assumption that there have been 80 generations since the
founding
of the Ashkenazi population, Dr. Hammer and colleagues calculate that
the rate of genetic admixture with Europeans has been less than half a
percent per generation.
Jewish law tracing back almost 2,000 years states that Jewish
affiliation is determined by maternal ancestry, so the Y chromosome
study addresses the question of how much non-Jewish men may have
contributed to Jewish genetic diversity.
Dr. Hammer was surprised to find how little that contribution was.
"It could be that wherever Jews were, they were very much isolated,"
he
said. The close genetic affinity between Jews and Arabs, at least by
the
Y chromosome yardstick, is reflected in the Genesis account of how
Abraham fathered Ishmael by his wife's maid Hagar and, when Sarah was
then able to conceive, Isaac. Although Muslims have a different
version
of the story, they regard Abraham and Ishmael, or Ismail, as
patriarchs
just as Jews do Abraham and Isaac.
>
> These numbers could be used in a variety of ways, but one thing that won't
> work is to pretend that no arabs lived in Palestine before 1948 (which of
> course included present day Israel and Jordan as well as present day
> Palestine). And of course we know that many of them lived in what is now
> Israel, as most of those became refugees.
>
> Another incontrovertible fact is that Israel has in the past elected
> leaders with criminal convictions for terrorist acts against the former
> British authorities that then controlled Palestine, e.g. Menachem Begin.
Yes, history, particulary Israeli history, has shown that former
terrorists can become not only responsible leaders, but leaders
towards peace (e.g. Rabin). On the other hand, the 'terrorism'
practiced by Rabin et al was guerilla warfare against the British
military, not shooting babies in their beds and blowing up teenage
discos. The famous King David Hotel, for instance, was the site of the
British military command and the British Criminal Investigation
Division, not some massacre of honeymooning British couples in the
penthouse suite. And even so, was denounced by 'mainstream' Jewish
authorities, rather than celebrated with dancing in the streets.
And when the country of Israel was given the responsibilities of
statehood, one of the first actions taken was the sinking of the
Altalena, a ship headed for port filled with armaments and volunteers
for the extremist wing who wished to continue the fight with the
Arabs, killing several aboard who had recently fought for Israeli
independence alongside those who now shelled them. There comes that
point in the genesis of a nation-state when they must turn the corner
from absolute partisanship and take responsibility for policing their
own people, in return for being given the freedom to join the family
of nations. While the feelings of a Palestinian policeman who cannot
bring himself to shoot at a 'freedom fighter' on his way to infiltrate
Israel may be understandable, it is ironic that, until the
Palestinians can get through that stage, they will never win what they
are fighting for. And further ironic that the patriotic 'freedom
fighters' in return have no qualms about executing any of their
brothers named as a 'collaborator', without trial or evidence.