interv. Kach leader Itamar Ben-Gvir: 64% of Jews support us
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consensus
By: Yossi Gurvitz, Part I
Kach leader Itamar Ben-Gvir walks around the Magistrate's Court in
Jerusalem as if he's at home. He is defending himself. He questions the
confused policeman sitting on the witness stand and interrupts the
prosecution. He says his proposal will create harmony among Jews, and the
judge agrees with him.
Ben-Gvir is an expert in courtroom matters. He says he has been
acquitted in 32 cases so far, occupying second place among on the list of
Israelis who have been acquitted of criminal charges the most times. First
place goes to Noam Federman, another Kach member, who was recently acquitted
of involvement in assassinating eight Palestinians and planting a bomb at a
girls' school in East Jerusalem .
Ben-Gvir heads quickly from the Magistrate's Court to the District
Court to help another detainee there, 17-year-old Gilad Shohat, accused of
disturbing the peace in a mosque on the Temple Mount . The police filed 29
charges against Shohat.
Ben-Gvir brings food and drink to the young man and asks him if he
needs anything and if they are bringing him kosher food. He explains to
those surrounding him why the arrest of Gilad Shohat is a dubious legal
tactic, saying “It's low.”
Q: You could have become an excellent human rights lawyer?
Ben-Gvir: That's not what I want
Rabin? I would have spit on him
Ben-Gvir is 28 years old and lives in Mevaseret Zion. He came into the
public eye for the first time about a month before Rabin's assassination. He
was filmed on television after a large right-wing demonstration in Zion
Square , holding the Mercedes icon from the Prime Minister's car. “If we can
reach the Mercedes, we can also reach Rabin,” he said then.
Q: How did you do it?
Ben-Gvir: You want the truth? It wasn't me who did it in the first
place. Another person broke off the icon and brought it to me. I appeared on
television holding it, because at that time I had a relationship with some
journalists. I was tried for that and acquitted. The police brought a tape
of the riots. I asked them where I was on the tape. They were forced to
release me, and since then, they haven't liked me.
Q: If you had reached Rabin as you said, what would you have done?
Ben-Gvir: I would have screamed in his face and called him a traitor.
Maybe I would've spit on him. Nothing more.
Q: When Vanunu was released, you chased him to the Church of the
Resurrection. If you had caught him, what would you have done?
Ben-Gvir: We would've spit on him and called him a traitor.
Q: That's it?
Ben-Gvir [laughing]: He's a traitor who hasn't yet been punished.
Transferring Fares: the Rahab precedent for the Druze
Since it was established, the Kach Party, founded by Rabbi Meir
Kahane, has announced its intention to expel all Arabs from Israel . Meir
Kahane, raising the slogan “Only Kahane can deal with the Arabs,” was
elected to the Knesset in 1984. In 1988, Kach was not allowed to stand in
elections because it violated the anti-racism law. It openly called for the
abolishment of democracy in Israel . In 1990, an Arab terrorist assassinated
Kahane in New York .
In 1994, Baruch Goldstein, a Kach representative in the Kiryat Arba
City Council, slaughtered worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. After a
Kach leaflet was released praising the attack, Kach was banned. The rest of
the movement's members calls themselves “Kahane's men” so they will not be
accused of belonging to an illegal organization.
These days, Ben-Gvir, the face of the extreme right in the media, is
registering names for a youth summer camp to prepare the hilltops and
settlement outposts. Young people in the camp will learn how to cross the
checkpoints, climb fences, and resist evacuation. Using a video camera, Noam
Federman will train them how to withstand Shin Bet interrogations.
Ben-Gvir is one of the most cautious and articulate spokesmen for the
men of Kahane's movement.
Q: What is your role in the Kach movement?
Ben-Gvir: There is no longer anything called Kach. Kach is an illegal
organization. We are Kahane's men. As for my role, they have described me as
a spokesman and an activist. I don't care how they describe me.
Q: How is your leadership structured?
Ben-Gvir: We have no leader. We have a council of 18 members,
including people you'd know, like Michael Ben-Horin and Noam Federman, and
others unknown to the public. Ben-Horin is the one who in the early 1990s
declared himself the president of the “state of Judea .” Federman was only
recently released from administrative detention.
Q: I'm here to give you an opportunity to say that Kahane's theory is
more than just the slogan “death to the Arabs.”
Ben-Gvir: You'll be surprised, but I don't recall ever chanting “death
to the Arabs.” Look, On YTV, there's an Arab presenter named Fares. He won a
contest and they let him present a program. He invited me on his show.
Q: Did you agree?
Ben-Gvir: Of course. I have nothing against him. I know there are
Arabs who don't want to kill us, just as there are Arabs who aren't dirty.
I'll tell you something very simple: I have nothing against him. But we're
forced to expel him. This is a Jewish state.
Q: Isn't there a place for Fares? He's an Israeli citizen?
Ben-Gvir [laughing]: What's the difference between and Israeli Arab
and a Palestinian from the territories? They're both Arabs. They're both
Muslims. Let's assume that your plan—the plan of the leftist media—succeeds.
Let's assume you succeed in making tens of thousands of Jews miserable and
removing them from their homes. In 30 or 40 years at most, the Arabs will be
a majority here.
Israeli Arabs are not prepared to sing the national anthem. I'm not
accusing them of anything: this is not their national anthem. They aren't
willing to serve in the army. Once more, I'm not accusing them of anything:
it's not their army. It's not an “Israeli” army, but a Jewish army. Is there
any future for us with them? Any hope? The only solution is collective
transfer. Between you and me, I'd like to see the face of those calling for
humanitarianism when their daughter brings a young Arab home. Suddenly, all
their liberalism will disappear. No one here marries Arabs. So why the
pretense?
Q: Jabotinsky spoke of a bi-national state.
Ben-Gvir: Perhaps that was fine for him, but it's not fine for me.
Q: Did you know that Fares is a common name among the Druze? Do you
want to expel the Druze, too?
Ben-Gvir [thinking a moment]: There are many Druze, there are Druze in
the Golan Heights who do not recognize the state.
Q: I'm talking about the Druze in Israel who serve in the army.
Ben-Gvir: We must deal with them using the Rahab precedent.* We should
help them. I think they're oppressed. I'll tell you something else: a while
back a large conference was held in the north for soldiers of the Southern
Lebanese Army, whom we must also help. I walked among them and greeted them,
telling them that they don't know me, but I want to help them. I don't hate
them, but we Jews have a different mission.
Q: What will their status be after you establish a religious state
here?
Ben-Gvir: There are many opinions in Jewish Law.
Q: And?
Ben-Gvir: There are many opinions in Jewish Law.
* According to the Bible, Rahab the Harlot was a resident of Jericho
who gave aid to Joshua's spies and thus helped the Israelites conquer
Jericho—ed.
July 13, 2004