"Palestine" is Disneyland? Jesus is "the first Palestinian"?

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Deborah Sharavi

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Oct 31, 2003, 4:59:01 PM10/31/03
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THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE
by Yehezkel Bin-Nun

"Palestinians doubt Blair can deliver," announces the BBC. "Four
Palestinians die in West Bank," reports CNN. "IDF demolishes building
used by Palestinian gunmen," announces Israel's government run Channel
1 News. The modern media is filled with stories about the
Palestinians, their plight, their dilemmas and their struggles. All
aspects of their lives seem to have been put under the microscope.
Only one question never seems to be addressed: Who are the
Palestinians? Who are these people who claim the Holy Land as their
own? What is their history? Where did they come from? How did they
arrive in the country they call Palestine? Now that both US President
George Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (in direct
opposition to the platform he was elected on) have come out in favor
of a Palestinian state, it would be prudent to seek answers to these
questions.

For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.

The general impression given in the media is that Palestinians have
lived in the Holy Land for hundreds, if not thousands of years. No
wonder, then, that a recent poll of French citizens shows that the
majority believe (falsely) that prior to the establishment of the
State of Israel an independent Arab Palestinian state existed in its
place. Yet curiously, when it comes to giving the history of this
"ancient" people most news outlets find it harder to go back more than
the early nineteen hundreds. CNN, an agency which has devoted
countless hours of airtime to the "plight" of the Palestinians, has a
website which features a special section on the Middle East conflict
called "Struggle For Peace". It includes a promising sounding section
entitled "Lands Through The Ages" which assures us it will detail the
history of the region using maps. Strangely, it turns out, the maps
displayed start no earlier than the ancient date of 1917. The CBS News
website has a background section called "A Struggle For Middle East
Peace.'' Its history timeline starts no earlier than 1897. The NBC
News background section called ''Searching for Peace'' has a timeline
which starts in 1916. BBC's timeline starts in 1948.

Yet, the clincher must certainly be the Palestinian National
Authority's own website. While it is top heavy on such phrases as
"Israeli occupation" and "Israeli human rights violations" the site
offers practically nothing on the history of the so-called Palestinian
people. The only article on the site with any historical content is
called "Palestinian History - 20th Century Milestones" which seems
only to confirm that prior to 1900 there was no such concept as the
Palestinian People.

While the modern media maybe short on information about the history of
the "Palestinian people" the historical record is not. Books, such as
Battleground by Samuel Katz and From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters
long ago detailed the history of the region. Far from being settled by
Palestinians for hundreds, if not thousands of years, the Land of
Israel, according to dozens of visitors to the land, was, until the
beginning of the last century, practically empty. Alphonse de
Lamartine visited the land in 1835. In his book, Recollections of the
East, he writes "Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw no living
object, heard no living sound.." None other than the famous American
author Mark Twain, who visited the Land of Israel in 1867, confirms
this. In his book Innocents Abroad he writes, "A desolation is here
that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.
We reached Tabor safely.. We never saw a human being on the whole
journey." Even the British Consul in Palestine reported, in 1857, "The
country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore
its greatest need is that of a body of population."

In fact, according to official Ottoman Turk census figures of 1882, in
the entire "Land of Israel" ["Palestine" on BOTH sides of the Jordan
River... see http://masada2000.org/historical.html), there were only
141,000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab. This number was to skyrocket
to 650,000 Arabs by 1922, a 450% increase in only 40 years. By 1938
that number would become over 1 million or an 800% increase in only 56
years. Population growth was especially high in areas where Jews
lived.

According to the Arabs the huge increase in their numbers was due to
natural childbirth. In 1944, for example, they alleged that the
natural increase (births minus deaths) of Arabs in the Land of Israel
was the astounding figure of 334 per 1000. That would make it roughly
three times the corresponding rate for the same year of Lebanon and
Syria and almost four times that of Egypt, considered amongst the
highest in the world. Unlikely, to say the least. If the massive
increase was not due to natural births, then were did all these Arabs
come from?

All the evidence points to the neighboring Arab states of Egypt,
Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. In 1922 the British Governor of the Sinai
noted that "illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai,
but also from Trans-jordan and Syria." In 1930, the British Mandate
-sponsored Hope-Simpson Report noted that "unemployment lists are
being swollen by immigrants from Trans-Jordania" and "illicit
immigration through Syria and across the northern frontier of
Palestine is material." The Arabs themselves bare witness to this
trend. For example, the governor of the Syrian district of Hauran,
Tewfik Bey el Hurani, admitted in 1934 that in a single period of only
a few months over 30,000 Syrians from Hauran had moved to the Land of
Israel. Even British Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted the Arab
influx. Churchill, a veteran of the early years of the British mandate
in the Land of Israel, noted in 1939 that "far from being persecuted,
the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied."

Far from displacing the Arabs, as they claimed, the Jews were the very
reason the Arabs chose to settle in the Land of Israel. Jobs provided
by newly established Zionist industry and agriculture lured them
there, just as Israeli construction and industry provides most Arabs
in the Land of Israel with their main source of income today. Malcolm
MacDonald, one of the principal authors of the British White Paper of
1939, which restricted Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel,
admitted (conservatively) that were it not for a Jewish presence the
Arab population would have been little more than half of what it
actually was. Today, when due to the latest "intifada" Arabs from the
territories under 35 are no longer allowed into pre-1967 Israel to
work, unemployment has skyrocketed to over 40% and most rely on
European aid packages to survive.

Not only pre-state Arabs lied about being indigenous. Even today, many
prominent so-called Palestinians, it turns out, are foreign born.
Edward Said (Left), an Ivy League Professor of Literature and a major
Palestinian propagandist, long claimed to have been raised in
Jerusalem. However, in an article in the September 1999 issue of
Commentary Magazine Justus Reid Weiner revealed that Said (Right)
actually grew up in Cairo, Egypt, a fact which Said himself was later
forced to admit. But why bother with Said? PLO chief Yasir Arafat
himself, self declared "leader of the Palestinian people", has always
claimed to have been born and raised in "Palestine". In fact,
according to his official biographer Richard Hart, as well as the BBC,
Arafat was born in Cairo on August 24, 1929 and that's where he grew
up.

To maintain the charade of being an indigenous population, Arab
propagandists have had to do more than a little rewriting of history.
A major part of this rewriting involves the renaming of geography.
For two thousand years the central mountainous region of Israel was
known as Judea and Samaria, as any medieval map of the area testifies.
However, the state of Jordan occupied the area in 1948 and renamed it
the West Bank. This is a funny name for a region that actually lies in
the eastern portion of the land and can only be called "West" in
reference to Jordan. This does not seem to bother the majority of news
outlets covering the region, which universally refer to the region by
its recent Jordanian name.

The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To
portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an
ancient Canaanite tribe, the Philistines, that died out almost 3000
years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is
nil. Who is to know the difference? Given the absence of any
historical record, one can understand why Yasir Arafat claims that
Jesus Christ, a Jewish carpenter from the Galilee, was a Palestinian.
Every year, at Christmas time, Arafat goes to Bethlehem and tells
worshippers that Jesus was in fact "the first Palestinian".

If the Palestinians are indeed a myth, then the real question becomes
"Why?" Why invent a fictitious people? The answer is that the myth of
the Palestinian People serves as the justification for Arab occupation
of the Land of Israel. While the Arabs already possess 21 sovereign
countries of their own (more than any other single people on earth)
and control a land mass 800 times the size of the Land of Israel, this
is apparently not enough for them. They therefore feel the need to rob
the Jews of their one and only country, one of the smallest on the
planet. Unfortunately, many people ignorant of the history of the
region, including much of the world media, are only too willing to
help.

On second thought, it may be unfair to compare Palestine to
Disneyland. After all, Disneyland really exists.

-----------------
"The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one
thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made
up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like
"Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really
a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war,
Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians"
then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were
no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and
started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you
know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their
deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation!"
- Dennis Miller, The New Standard

Ariel

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Oct 31, 2003, 5:28:12 PM10/31/03
to
Great post.
I always have great respect for those who put "palestine" in quotation
marks. Those that do are the ones that understand the history of the Middle
East quite well.
Mr BinNun is no exception.
We should do all we can to spread the thruth about the so-called
"palestinians".
When I talk to people who say that "palestine" does exist and that it's an
arab nation, I always love to ask this question (it happened to me recently
in a lecture about the ME I went to at the local university):
Me:Really?
Some Arab guy (SAG): Yes
Me: How do you say "palestine" in Arabic?
SAG: "philistiin"
Me: Really?
SAG: Yes
Me: What does "philistiin" mean in Arabic? What's the etimology?
SAG: (silence)
Me: So?
SAG: (silence)
Me: Want a hint?
SAG: Yes
Me: It means nothing. It's a word of Latin origin.
SAG: Not true.
Me: How so? What's its origin?
SAG: (silence)
Me: "philistine" comes from the Latin word Palaestina. There is today
actually a town in Italy 300 km southwest of Rome called Palaestina. (I
produce my map of Italy). It was founded more than 2000 years ago. Do you
think the Italian Palaestinians got their town named after being inspired by
Arafat's ancestors? (general laughter)
SAG: (silence)

Loved the experience.
I enjoy it every time. I'm almost obsessed with conferences on or about the
Middle East where arabs attend to spread their propaganda. I'm a Middle East
lecture hunter. Whenever there's one close to where I live, I'm there!! And
it's so fun! You should all try the experience. You get a rush of pride when
you debunk those liars.

Anywho....Shabat Shalom!


"Deborah Sharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cf157c1.03103...@posting.google.com...

paredon

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Oct 31, 2003, 7:15:59 PM10/31/03
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Even Nazi occupation looks like a Disneyland compared to the savagery of
the Israeli savages. I doubt if Nazis destroyed that many houses during the
war delibarately, as the Israeli have destroyed during this intifada.

Some day soon some Israelis will have to account for all this. We hung
germans for much less than what Israelis are doing. Just the existence of
torture camps is enough to stretch Sharon's neck for!


Jan Pieter Verhey

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Oct 31, 2003, 8:04:51 PM10/31/03
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The "Palestinians" are cought in their own myths indeed. The "Palestinian"
people don't exist. But they are people all the same. Exposed to dangerous
and self-defeating incitements and hateful memes spreading around in the
Muslem world. Palestinian kids are exposed to all this and victims of a cult
taught to blow themselves up, sent by their coward leaders to death. It
might sound sentimental in the rage of posts here, but I'd like to have it
said. Lets hate the myths and memes, not their victims.

"Ariel" <ari...@37.com> wrote in message
news:bnunml$1632k4$1...@ID-205389.news.uni-berlin.de...

AnonMoos

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Oct 31, 2003, 10:39:39 PM10/31/03
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And by the way, if you want to find out who are the most Nazi-like in
the world today, just fire up your web-browser and head on over to
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg062102.asp

--
SAUDIA OMNIS IN PARTES TRES DIVIDENDA EST! Free Arabia by splitting the Saudi
tyranny into its three natural parts: Hejaz-alHarameyn, Nejd-Wahhabistan, and
Gulf-Petrolia. True motto: &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;
&#1604;&#1610;&#1587; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1604;!&#8207; Islam is not the
solution! Murderers are not Martyrs! http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/

Social Americans

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Oct 31, 2003, 11:44:04 PM10/31/03
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AnonMoos wrote:
> And by the way, if you want to find out who are the most Nazi-like in
> the world today, just fire up your web-browser and head on over to
> http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg062102.asp
>

The web article reads
" it is highly improbable that the United States will ever become a
Nazi-like or otherwise totalitarian nation"

The problem is, the Federal Reserve corporation does pretty much rule
America like a totalitarian nation. Totally Federal Reserve notes.

And, though the Federal Reserve corporation does basically rule America,
if someone were to say "Jews rule America" then, well, the Federal
Reserve corporation probably won't mind.


Xathos

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Nov 1, 2003, 4:39:32 AM11/1/03
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"I doubt if Nazis destroyed that many houses during the
war deliberately,"
That has to be the stupidest,most moronic statement you've ever made.You
really are a mental retard...seek help immediately.
"paredon" <pinksp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3XCob.14025$X22....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

Mathias Donien

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Nov 1, 2003, 6:30:10 AM11/1/03
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Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
> The "Palestinians" are cought in their own myths indeed. The "Palestinian"
> people don't exist. But they are people all the same. Exposed to dangerous
> and self-defeating incitements and hateful memes spreading around in the
> Muslem world. Palestinian kids are exposed to all this and victims of a cult
> taught to blow themselves up, sent by their coward leaders to death. It
> might sound sentimental in the rage of posts here, but I'd like to have it
> said. Lets hate the myths and memes, not their victims.

That's how it is. Therefore the PLO/Palestinian Authority must be
dismantled to stop the atrocities.

--
If we believe absurd, we will do terrible. Voltaire (1694-1778)
http://www.rsf.org/predators.php3 Predators of Press Freedom
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/defaulteng.html
http://www.honestreporting.com/ Media Critiques

Conquistador

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Nov 1, 2003, 9:14:28 AM11/1/03
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I agree out of America Serbian savage!


AnonMoos

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Nov 1, 2003, 9:59:42 AM11/1/03
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"Conquistador" <pinksp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>AnonMoos wrote:

>> And by the way, if you want to find out who are the most Nazi-like
>> in the world today, just fire up your web-browser and head on over
>> to http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg062102.asp

> I agree out of America Serbian savage!

So when are you emigrating or re-emigrating back yo where you came from,
StriderCabal?

--
SAUDIA OMNIS IN PARTES TRES DIVIDENDA EST! Free Arabia by
splitting the Saudi tyranny into its three natural parts:
Hejaz-alHarameyn, Nejd-Wahhabistan, and Gulf-Petrolia.

David T

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Nov 1, 2003, 10:56:14 AM11/1/03
to
On 31 Oct 2003 13:59:01 -0800, dsha...@hotmail.com (Deborah Sharavi)
wrote:

>THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE

>For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.

I want to visist the Hall of the Prophets...

America

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Nov 1, 2003, 4:28:41 PM11/1/03
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David T <icne246...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qrl7qvoke1nhag85f...@4ax.com>...

If not Palestinians what do you perfer to call them? Please don't give
me the typical reply, murders, terrorist, I'm talking about women,
children, and the one's who just want an opportunity to live a decent
life.

Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
Israel is no myth.

America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
home.

This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
region.

Susan Cohen

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Nov 1, 2003, 7:24:52 PM11/1/03
to

"Jan Pieter Verhey" <pete...@12move.nl> wrote in message
news:bnv0rc$161ai1$1...@ID-211556.news.uni-berlin.de...

> The "Palestinians" are cought in their own myths indeed. The "Palestinian"
> people don't exist. But they are people all the same. Exposed to dangerous
> and self-defeating incitements and hateful memes spreading around in the
> Muslem world. Palestinian kids are exposed to all this and victims of a
cult
> taught to blow themselves up, sent by their coward leaders to death. It
> might sound sentimental in the rage of posts here, but I'd like to have it
> said. Lets hate the myths and memes, not their victims.

No - let's hate those who PERPETUATE the myths & memes.

Susan


Tilly

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Nov 1, 2003, 7:54:53 PM11/1/03
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Conquistador wrote:
> I agree out of America Serbian savage!

Talking to yourself again Alex?

Tilly

--
Brig...@hotmail.com


David T

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Nov 2, 2003, 3:38:29 PM11/2/03
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On 1 Nov 2003 13:28:41 -0800, m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America)
wrote:

>David T <icne246...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<qrl7qvoke1nhag85f...@4ax.com>...
>> On 31 Oct 2003 13:59:01 -0800, dsha...@hotmail.com (Deborah Sharavi)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE
>>
>> >For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.
>>
>> I want to visist the Hall of the Prophets...
>
>If not Palestinians what do you perfer to call them? Please don't give
>me the typical reply, murders, terrorist, I'm talking about women,
>children, and the one's who just want an opportunity to live a decent
>life.

First of all I'll point you to the indentations. I didn't put
Palestinians in quotes. I was making a reference to Disneyland.

But if you want an answer: Arabs. Check your history, there were no
"Palestinians" until 1964, when it was invented. Earlier they'd been
Arabs demanding a Greater Syria. Also, statistics and quotes regularly
posted on these ngs show that the "Palestinians", by a very vast
majority are immigrants from the same time period as modern Zionism
but without the historical routes. Third, as long as the Palestinians
and their supporters continue to put Israel in quotes I won't complain
when someone does that to the Pallies.


>
>Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
>Israel is no myth.

Wow, you've figured that out? We hadn't noticed, thanx for clarifying.


>
>America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
>the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
>home.

What percentage of the US budget and US GDP goes to foreign aid? What
percentage goes to corporate tax breaks. Do some studying before you
talk about squandering.


>
>This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
>to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
>the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
>region.

You're right. Israelis daily face that possibility. It's time for the
Arab population to face the same possibility.

Mathias Donien

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Nov 2, 2003, 6:13:42 PM11/2/03
to
America wrote:
>David T wrote:

>>Deborah Sharavi wrote:
>>>THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE
>>>For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.
>>
>>I want to visist the Hall of the Prophets...
>
> If not Palestinians what do you perfer to call them? Please don't give
> me the typical reply, murders, terrorist, I'm talking about women,
> children, and the one's who just want an opportunity to live a decent
> life.

Arabs. Or Palestinian Arabs, because the term "Palestinian" applies to
all inhabitants of the former British Mandate of Palestine
(=Jordan+Israel=Transjordan+Cisjordan), regardless which ethnic
background they have. All Jordanians and Israelis are Palestinians.

> Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
> Israel is no myth.

Unfortunately.

> America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
> the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
> home.
>
> This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
> to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
> the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
> region.

The attackers are Arabs. Israel could end it, this could work:
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/defaulteng.html

Deborah Sharavi

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Nov 3, 2003, 1:21:56 PM11/3/03
to
<<<THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE
<<<For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.

<<I want to visist the Hall of the Prophets...

m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America) wrote in message news:<48da32ad.03110...@posting.google.com<...


<If not Palestinians what do you perfer to call them? Please don't give
<me the typical reply, murders, terrorist, I'm talking about women,
<children, and the one's who just want an opportunity to live a decent
<life.

Arabs.

<Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
<Israel is no myth.

They are real enough. If they want to call themselves "Palestinians",
it's up to them - and obviously they do want to call themselves
"Palestinians", as opposed to the past, when "Palestinian" referred
only to Jews. What they should not be allowed to get away with,
however, is inventing some great, glorious, and ancient past for
themselves, ala the Egyptian Terrorfat's and English lit prof
Ashwari's BS. They are the children, grandchildren, and great-
grandchildren of Arabs who were living in, or who migrated to,
British Palestine. That's it.

<America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
<the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
<home.

One of our great needs is OIL. Chiefly found in the Middle East.
Therefore, so long as we require OIL, spending money, prestige,
and goodwill in the area it mostly comes from is not squandering
any of it. We simply need to be a bit more careful on how we
dole it out.

<This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
<to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
<the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
<region.

What planet are you from? There has never been peace in the ME,
and there will be no peace in the ME, until we start dealing with
them on a level they can understand. For the Pallies, that means
a halt to suckling them and changing their diapers every time
they crap in them and letting them live on their fairy tales.
A giant step would be to kick the current Pallie leadership
back to their countries of origin, and start dealing with
groups who actually represent the Palestinian people.

Deborah

America

unread,
Nov 4, 2003, 8:00:41 PM11/4/03
to
David T <icne246...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ffqaqv8gr4fdujr1o...@4ax.com>...
No problem!! By the way, "Thanx" (notice the quotations) is spelled
with a K.
Now go study your spelling words.

> >America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
> >the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
> >home.
> What percentage of the US budget and US GDP goes to foreign aid? What
> percentage goes to corporate tax breaks. Do some studying before you
> talk about squandering.
> >

Okay, the answers are, too much, and too much. And my question is,
what
percentage of U.S. foreign aid goes to Israel? Answer, most of it.

By the way alot of economist will tell you corporations don't pay
income tax.
They pass them on to the consumer.

> >This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
> >to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
> >the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
> >region.
>

You're right. Israelis daily face that possibility. It's time for
the
> Arab population to face the same possibility.

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword? Seems to fits both
sides!

One other thing, when you say, "historical routes"(notice the
quotations), do you mean historical roots?

Study, study, study.

America

unread,
Nov 4, 2003, 8:23:37 PM11/4/03
to
dsha...@hotmail.com (Deborah Sharavi) wrote in message news:<3cf157c1.03110...@posting.google.com>...

> <<<THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE
> <<<For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.
>
> <<I want to visist the Hall of the Prophets...
>
> m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America) wrote in message news:<48da32ad.03110...@posting.google.com<...
> <If not Palestinians what do you perfer to call them? Please don't give
> <me the typical reply, murders, terrorist, I'm talking about women,
> <children, and the one's who just want an opportunity to live a decent
> <life.
>
> Arabs.
>
> <Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
> <Israel is no myth.
>
> They are real enough. If they want to call themselves "Palestinians",
> it's up to them - and obviously they do want to call themselves
> "Palestinians", as opposed to the past, when "Palestinian" referred
> only to Jews. What they should not be allowed to get away with,
> however, is inventing some great, glorious, and ancient past for
> themselves, ala the Egyptian Terrorfat's and English lit prof
> Ashwari's BS. They are the children, grandchildren, and great-
> grandchildren of Arabs who were living in, or who migrated to,
> British Palestine. That's it.

Didn't most of the Jews living in Israel come from Eastern Europe?


>
> <America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
> <the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
> <home.
>
> One of our great needs is OIL. Chiefly found in the Middle East.
> Therefore, so long as we require OIL, spending money, prestige,
> and goodwill in the area it mostly comes from is not squandering
> any of it. We simply need to be a bit more careful on how we
> dole it out.

Israel has no OIL!! So what's the national security value in
supporting them?
And don't give me the lone outpost theory, We had two wars over
there and
Israel was more of a handicap than a help.


>
> <This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
> <to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
> <the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
> <region.
>
> What planet are you from? There has never been peace in the ME,
> and there will be no peace in the ME, until we start dealing with
> them on a level they can understand. For the Pallies, that means
> a halt to suckling them and changing their diapers every time
> they crap in them and letting them live on their fairy tales.
> A giant step would be to kick the current Pallie leadership
> back to their countries of origin, and start dealing with
> groups who actually represent the Palestinian people.
>
> Deborah

The planet Earth. "Pallies"! How sad! Both sides are suckled.
Everytime Israel commits an extreme act the United States refuses to
condem it. Yes Israel does kill woman, children and the elderly just
like the Palestinians.

Just because there never has been peace doesn't mean there never will
be.

Susan Cohen

unread,
Nov 4, 2003, 8:51:05 PM11/4/03
to

"America" <m.ca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:48da32ad.03110...@posting.google.com...

> David T <icne246...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<ffqaqv8gr4fdujr1o...@4ax.com>...
> > On 1 Nov 2003 13:28:41 -0800, m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America)
>
> > >Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
> > >Israel is no myth.
> > Wow, you've figured that out? We hadn't noticed, thanx for clarifying.
> > >
> No problem!! By the way, "Thanx" (notice the quotations) is spelled
> with a K.
> Now go study your spelling words.

"thanx" is a recognized slang short-cut.
Try not to be *too* ridiculous.


>
> > >America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
> > >the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
> > >home.
> > What percentage of the US budget and US GDP goes to foreign aid? What
> > percentage goes to corporate tax breaks. Do some studying before you
> > talk about squandering.
> > >
> Okay, the answers are, too much, and too much. And my question is,
> what
> percentage of U.S. foreign aid goes to Israel? Answer, most of it.

And how much of that "aid" is spent in America, by mandate? Answer: Most of
it.

Susan


Susan Cohen

unread,
Nov 4, 2003, 8:53:22 PM11/4/03
to

"America" <m.ca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:48da32ad.03110...@posting.google.com...

[snip most of crap]


>
> Everytime Israel commits an extreme act the United States refuses to
> condem it.

That's because the US government is at least samrt enough to realize that
when Israel does something that Jew-haters call extreme, all it is is an
answer to something far more "extreme".

Yes Israel does kill woman, children and the elderly just
> like the Palestinians.

No, not at all.

Binyamin Dissen

unread,
Nov 5, 2003, 3:52:59 AM11/5/03
to
On 4 Nov 2003 17:23:37 -0800 m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (KKKlansman) wrote:

[ snipped ]

:> Israel has no OIL!! So what's the national security value in
:>supporting them?

Inventions.

Scientific advances.

I do understand this is a difficult concept for a redneck - but, then again,
pretty much anything is a difficult concept for a redneck.

[ snipped ]

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

David T

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 11:17:06 AM11/6/03
to
On 4 Nov 2003 17:00:41 -0800, m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America)
wrote:

And "smiley face" is spelled "smiley face", but it's quite acceptable
to use :-)

It figures that an incompetent newbie with no internet or political
skills would pick that as a main bone of contention.


>
>> >America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
>> >the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
>> >home.
>> What percentage of the US budget and US GDP goes to foreign aid? What
>> percentage goes to corporate tax breaks. Do some studying before you
>> talk about squandering.
>> >
> Okay, the answers are, too much, and too much. And my question is,
>what
> percentage of U.S. foreign aid goes to Israel? Answer, most of it.

Actual factual answer: Less than 1% of the US budget goes to foreign
aid. We spend the smallest percentage of both budget and GDP than any
other industrialized country. If you really think isolationism works,
have a chat with Neville Chamberlain and a number of US politicians
prior to WWII.

If you want to be idiotic about an "x" rather than a "ks", I suggest
you take your previous sentence to your English teacher and have her
show you how to use commas.


>
> By the way alot of economist will tell you corporations don't pay
>income tax.
> They pass them on to the consumer.

And an economist will tell you that a corporation that doesn't pay tax
doesn't pass the tax on to the consumer. An economist or an accountant
would also tell you that not all of the tax is passed on to consumers.
Competition against other corporations and where taxes show on a
balance sheet mean that stockholders suck up some of the tax loss in
order to provide lower priced products. Others, even more
knowledgeable would let you know that the market often used EBITDA,
which I dislike. It means that stock prices are valued based on
corporate earnings before taxes are paid. That means that taxes mean
less to the officers of a company, and are included in price
calculations less often, because it doesn't impact the valuation.

Simple slogans don't explain everything. You need to dig a little
deeper next time.

Meanwhile, a historian will tell you the original tax was exclusively
in corporations. That was passed on to the consumers, but only in the
way of consumption taxes, similar to the concept at VAT.


>
>
>> >This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
>> >to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
>> >the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
>> >region.
>>
>
> You're right. Israelis daily face that possibility. It's time for
>the
>> Arab population to face the same possibility.
>
> He who lives by the sword dies by the sword? Seems to fits both
>sides!

Really?

Israel lives by the sword as long as the Arabs do. As soon as Egypt
wanted peace it got the Sinai back and peace. As soon as Jordan wanted
peace it got to dump the West Bank on Israel and got peace.

So tell me something. How was Israel living by the sword when it
withdrew from the territories and offered more than 95% of them as a
second Palestinian State? Yes, the Palestinians lived by it by not
negotiating the offer and starting suicide bombing, but you've not yet
proven the other half of your illiterate claim.


>
> One other thing, when you say, "historical routes"(notice the
>quotations), do you mean historical roots?

Yup, that's what I meant. So know lets review. We have a newbie who
doesn't notice that it's the frequency of spelling errors that
matters, since everyone has some. And a newbie who doesn't understand
history. So lets see the scorecard:
1) Newbie has no clue about the use of "thanx" as a shortened version
2) Newbie has only a simplistic view of economics
3) Newbie has no clue about the Middle East
4) Newbie found a hominem typo (BTW: I typed homonym wrong just so
you'd feel better...)

So newbie shows his illiteracy three times but proudly found a typo!
>
> Study, study, study.
Move away from the mirror and follow the suggestion.

Deborah Sharavi

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 6:41:31 PM11/6/03
to
<<<<<THE MYTH OF THE "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE
<<<<<For all we know, "Palestinians" could be as real as Disneyland.

<<<<I want to visist the Hall of the Prophets...

<<m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America) wrote in message news:<48da32ad.03110...@posting.google.com<...
<<<If not Palestinians what do you perfer to call them? Please don't give
<<<me the typical reply, murders, terrorist, I'm talking about women,
<<<children, and the one's who just want an opportunity to live a decent
<<<life.

<<Arabs.

<<<Palestinians may not be real according to you but their hate for
<<<Israel is no myth.

<<They are real enough. If they want to call themselves "Palestinians",
<<it's up to them - and obviously they do want to call themselves
<<"Palestinians", as opposed to the past, when "Palestinian" referred
<<only to Jews. What they should not be allowed to get away with,
<<however, is inventing some great, glorious, and ancient past for
<<themselves, ala the Egyptian Terrorfat's and English lit prof
<<Ashwari's BS. They are the children, grandchildren, and great-
<<grandchildren of Arabs who were living in, or who migrated to,
<<British Palestine. That's it.

m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (America) wrote in message news:<48da32ad.03110...@posting.google.com>...
<Didn't most of the Jews living in Israel come from Eastern Europe?

No.

<<<America's money, prestige, and goodwill should not be squandered in
<<<the cesspool of hate called the Middle East. We have enough needs at
<<<home.

<<One of our great needs is OIL. Chiefly found in the Middle East.
<<Therefore, so long as we require OIL, spending money, prestige,
<<and goodwill in the area it mostly comes from is not squandering
<<any of it. We simply need to be a bit more careful on how we
<<dole it out.

<Israel has no OIL!! So what's the national security value in
<supporting them?

Arab oil.

<And don't give me the lone outpost theory, We had two wars over
<there and
<Israel was more of a handicap than a help.

What two wars? How was Israel a handicap?

<<<This post proves that there is just to much hate on both side for us
<<<to expect this problem to go away anytime soon. When both sides face
<<<the possiblity of losing everything peace may finally come to the
<<<region.

<<What planet are you from? There has never been peace in the ME,
<<and there will be no peace in the ME, until we start dealing with
<<them on a level they can understand. For the Pallies, that means
<<a halt to suckling them and changing their diapers every time
<<they crap in them and letting them live on their fairy tales.
<<A giant step would be to kick the current Pallie leadership
<<back to their countries of origin, and start dealing with
<<groups who actually represent the Palestinian people.

<The planet Earth. "Pallies"! How sad! Both sides are suckled.


<Everytime Israel commits an extreme act the United States refuses to
<condem it. Yes Israel does kill woman, children and the elderly just
<like the Palestinians.

Unlike the Pallies' chief targets, Israel's are not women, children
and the elderly.

<Just because there never has been peace doesn't mean there never will
<be.

Of course. It is entirely possible we will soon learn from the past
and stop supporting Arab terrorists and believing Arab bullshit,
particularly of the Pallie odor, but I'm not holding my breath.

Deborah

The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe

unread,
Nov 6, 2003, 7:37:52 PM11/6/03
to
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:17:06 +0200, David T <icne246...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Unless you're a jew, and then it's :-----)

Joseph Hertzlinger

unread,
Nov 10, 2003, 12:06:11 AM11/10/03
to
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:17:06 +0200, David T <icne246...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> And an economist will tell you that a corporation that doesn't pay


> tax doesn't pass the tax on to the consumer. An economist or an
> accountant would also tell you that not all of the tax is passed on
> to consumers. Competition against other corporations and where
> taxes show on a balance sheet mean that stockholders suck up some of
> the tax loss in order to provide lower priced products. Others, even
> more knowledgeable would let you know that the market often used
> EBITDA, which I dislike. It means that stock prices are valued based
> on corporate earnings before taxes are paid. That means that taxes
> mean less to the officers of a company, and are included in price
> calculations less often, because it doesn't impact the valuation.

Corporations don't pay tax because corporations don't really exist.
To the extent corporations pass the tax on to stockholders, those
stockholders are being taxed twice.

Besides, we International Bankers run the corporations. Any idiot
knows that.

--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com

David T

unread,
Nov 10, 2003, 11:14:26 AM11/10/03
to
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:06:11 GMT, Joseph Hertzlinger
<jcyclespersec...@nine.reticulatedcom.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:17:06 +0200, David T <icne246...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>> And an economist will tell you that a corporation that doesn't pay
>> tax doesn't pass the tax on to the consumer. An economist or an
>> accountant would also tell you that not all of the tax is passed on
>> to consumers. Competition against other corporations and where
>> taxes show on a balance sheet mean that stockholders suck up some of
>> the tax loss in order to provide lower priced products. Others, even
>> more knowledgeable would let you know that the market often used
>> EBITDA, which I dislike. It means that stock prices are valued based
>> on corporate earnings before taxes are paid. That means that taxes
>> mean less to the officers of a company, and are included in price
>> calculations less often, because it doesn't impact the valuation.
>
>Corporations don't pay tax because corporations don't really exist.
>To the extent corporations pass the tax on to stockholders, those
>stockholders are being taxed twice.

Really? They don't exist? Sorry, but that's were you're sadly wrong.
Most students of US history are aware of the Dred Scott decision,
probably the worst the US Supreme Court ever made. However, most
people who think they're students of both history and business are
sadly completely unaware of what's probably the second worst Supreme
Court decision ever made.

That decision is Santa Clara Country V Southern Pacific Railroad. One
link is http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Santa/. In that decision the
Supreme Court wrote that the corporate entitey had the exact same
specific rights as human citizens do under the US Constitution. That
decision proved the legal existence of corporations and is a
cornerstone of the continuing evolving power of corporations.

Also, the question of double taxation is interesting on many fronts,
and can be described as wrong in a number of complex and
non-absolutist ways. But if you want to take a look at the history of
taxes, you'll find out that you're wrong in simplest way. Taxes were
originally just for corporations. But the influence of money in
politics, aided and abetted by the fallout from the aforementioned
court case, shows that it's the personal tax that's the redundant one.


>
>Besides, we International Bankers run the corporations. Any idiot
>knows that.

No, that's just what idiots are able to think. If you look at the way
the IMF, the WTO and other international organizations go you can make
a much stronger argument that international bankers run the
governments, not just the corporations. According to the power
structures, non-elected bankers and other businessmen regularly have
the power, in closed meetings, to tell democracies that their laws on
international trade are wrong and fine those democracies money until
the democracies change their laws.


Joseph Hertzlinger

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 2:17:15 AM11/11/03
to
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:14:26 +0200, David T <icne246...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Really? They don't exist? Sorry, but that's were you're sadly wrong.


> Most students of US history are aware of the Dred Scott decision,
> probably the worst the US Supreme Court ever made. However, most
> people who think they're students of both history and business are
> sadly completely unaware of what's probably the second worst Supreme
> Court decision ever made.
>
> That decision is Santa Clara Country V Southern Pacific Railroad. One
> link is http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Santa/. In that decision the
> Supreme Court wrote that the corporate entitey had the exact same
> specific rights as human citizens do under the US Constitution. That
> decision proved the legal existence of corporations and is a
> cornerstone of the continuing evolving power of corporations.

The people making up corporations do exist and have rights. The rights
of "corporations" is simply a shorthand way of describing those
rights.

> No, that's just what idiots are able to think. If you look at the
> way the IMF, the WTO and other international organizations go you
> can make a much stronger argument that international bankers run the
> governments, not just the corporations. According to the power
> structures, non-elected bankers and other businessmen regularly have
> the power, in closed meetings, to tell democracies that their laws
> on international trade are wrong and fine those democracies money
> until the democracies change their laws.

If you turn the page in the joke book you're quoting, you'll probably
find a pro-Palestinian rant.

After all, if the majority in a region can make any laws they want,
the majority of Arabs in the mideast can outlaw Jews.

--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com

David T

unread,
Nov 11, 2003, 2:47:36 PM11/11/03
to
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:17:15 GMT, Joseph Hertzlinger
<jcyclespersec...@nine.reticulatedcom.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:14:26 +0200, David T <icne246...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Really? They don't exist? Sorry, but that's were you're sadly wrong.
>> Most students of US history are aware of the Dred Scott decision,
>> probably the worst the US Supreme Court ever made. However, most
>> people who think they're students of both history and business are
>> sadly completely unaware of what's probably the second worst Supreme
>> Court decision ever made.
>>
>> That decision is Santa Clara Country V Southern Pacific Railroad. One
>> link is http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Santa/. In that decision the
>> Supreme Court wrote that the corporate entitey had the exact same
>> specific rights as human citizens do under the US Constitution. That
>> decision proved the legal existence of corporations and is a
>> cornerstone of the continuing evolving power of corporations.
>
>The people making up corporations do exist and have rights. The rights
>of "corporations" is simply a shorthand way of describing those
>rights.

There you're blatantly wrong and therefore destroy the rest of your
arguments. Crying "I believe one thing so the facts don't matter"
happens too much on the ngs and it's always sad. Research the case and
then come back and try to talk specifics. As study will show you,
including the above link,
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/index.html, and plenty more.
You'll find out, if you actually read and think, that it's the
corporate entity that is the person, not that it's acting for behind
the scenes shareholders.


>
>> No, that's just what idiots are able to think. If you look at the
>> way the IMF, the WTO and other international organizations go you
>> can make a much stronger argument that international bankers run the
>> governments, not just the corporations. According to the power
>> structures, non-elected bankers and other businessmen regularly have
>> the power, in closed meetings, to tell democracies that their laws
>> on international trade are wrong and fine those democracies money
>> until the democracies change their laws.
>
>If you turn the page in the joke book you're quoting, you'll probably
>find a pro-Palestinian rant.
>
>After all, if the majority in a region can make any laws they want,
>the majority of Arabs in the mideast can outlaw Jews.

Wow, usually right wing illiterates aren't in favor of a one-world
government. I guess exceptions do exist.

First, puppy, not that in civilized societies the word "democracy" is
not taken at the ancient Greek absolute majority rule method. Whether
it's a Representative, bicameral government, a separate judiciary to
judge constitutionality of majority rules, or other tools, it isn't
absolute. However, you seem to imply if that we don't have absolute
democracy we should have none.

To try to say that a democratic government can have its own rules
rejected by an unelected group of outsiders is interesting. I have no
problem giving it up to a higher organization, but not a sideways and
secret one (government meetings have open records, the orgs we talking
about don't).

As for the idiotic comments about the ME, that's funny. I'm saying
that a democratic government (US) shouldn't be overruled by a
non-elected oligarchy (WTO) and your reply tries to claim I'm saying a
democratic government (Israel) can be overruled by a group of
outsiders running non-democratic governments (Arabs). You're in
serious need of a course in logic.

Joseph Hertzlinger

unread,
Nov 13, 2003, 1:29:48 AM11/13/03
to
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:47:36 +0200, David T <icne246...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I'm not deaf, I'm ignoring you. There have been lots of really idiotic
legal doctrines (see http://www.corplawblog.com/archives/000280.html,
in which a judge describes the law as more important than reality).

In any case, the existence of a corporate person merely means there
is more than one reason to defend the rights of the people making up
the corporation.

> Wow, usually right wing illiterates aren't in favor of a one-world
> government. I guess exceptions do exist.

You don't know much about conservatives.

OTOH, there is the possibility that the left could infiltrate
international trade organizations, so any loyalty to them is
conditional and probably temporary.

OTGH, they've been doing a good job so far (see
http://www.iie.com/publications/newsreleases/bhalla.htm) and some of
their undemocratic rulings are actually necessary
(http://www.cato.org/dailys/09-04-03-2.html).

--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com

America

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 9:45:52 AM11/18/03
to
dsha...@hotmail.com (Deborah Sharavi) wrote in message news:<3cf157c1.03110...@posting.google.com>...

They just happen to be in the way?

America

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 10:04:21 AM11/18/03
to
Binyamin Dissen <post...@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message news:<sfehqvsp72fsgkm84...@4ax.com>...

> On 4 Nov 2003 17:23:37 -0800 m.ca...@worldnet.att.net (KKKlansman) wrote:
>
> [ snipped ]
>
> :> Israel has no OIL!! So what's the national security value in
> :>supporting them?
>
> Inventions.
>
> Scientific advances.
>
> LOL!!! That's right American would be stuck in the stoneage if wasn't for all
the life changing, "inventions" and "scientific advances" to come out of
Israel. Please, is this the best you can do? It sounds desperate!


I do understand this is a difficult concept for a redneck - but, then again,
> pretty much anything is a difficult concept for a redneck.

Instead of name calling why not work on coming up with reasonable and
rational concepts!

I know few rednecks, most of them are nice people. What have they done to you?
Is there anyone else you hate?
>
> [ snipped ]

America

unread,
Nov 18, 2003, 8:33:04 PM11/18/03
to
David T <icne246...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<l0skqv4i5qm2gh4ul...@4ax.com>...

David, move away from the screen and get a life. Try dating!

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