Itamar Ben-Gvir speaks: part two
@hotmail.com Heinrich
By: Yossi Gurvitz, Part II
Q: You know, when I entered the court to meet you, I felt how ugly and
neglected it was. There was a nice church there that was an architectural
monument. What would be the fate of the church in your state?
Ben-Gvir: It is a house of pagan worship.
Q: What would be its fate in your state?
Ben-Gvir [smiling]: Its fate would be the appropriate fate of
paganism.
Ben-Gvir smiles constantly and speaks zealously, but he doesn't allow
himself to get carried away. An open call to destroy churches could get him
in trouble with the law yet again. In addition, churches in Jerusalem are
the subject of constant attacks.
Q: You support the establishment of a religious state?
Ben-Gvir: That is correct.
Q: There is a large secular public living here. What will happen to
them after your victory?
Ben-Gvir: Nothing will happen to them. There will be more Jewish
values in public life, that's all. We don't want to force anyone to do
anything. I don't believe in compulsion. I grew up in a secular home. I live
with my parents. Nevertheless, we get along excellently. All Jews, with the
exception of a very small minority, know the truth of themselves. What
concerns us is preserving Jewish uniqueness. We will do this through
preaching and awareness-raising, not through compulsion.
Q: Jewish Law stipulates the death sentence for those who choose not
to perform their religious duties. One obligation concerns a city whose
inhabitants have been seduced by pagan worship. This duty stipulates the
destruction of a city whose Jewish inhabitants have forsaken their religion.
Ben-Gvir: How can we apply this? For us to be able to sentence a Jew
to death for breaking the Sabbath there must be two witnesses and he must
have been previously warned. Does this seem practical to you at the present
time? When most Jews don't even know religious precepts? Secularists are
drifting. They still have much to learn. Until they learn, how can we try
them in a court? I'm ready to admit that there are many good things in the
secular world. The whole world—even the religious world—is in need of
reform.
You don't know the value of what you're missing. Jewish Law is much
better than secular law. Let's take the Sabbath as an example. Have you seen
how many calls I've received in the last few hours [pointing to his cell
phone]? Dozens of calls. Sometimes I get hundreds of calls a day. How happy
I am on the Sabbath to take a break from it. If I were forced to live like
this daily, I'd go crazy.
Secular families are missing the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a family
occasion. It's the time when everyone gathers around one table. They need
this.
When voices are silenced, hands go to work
Ben-Gvir accuses the left and the media of hypocrisy. “You guys,” he
says, standing for a minute. Then he digresses: “I'm sorry if I address you
as ‘you guys.'”
Q: Don't worry. “You media guys, you defenders of human rights,” this
I can accept.
Ben-Gvir: Exactly. You demand human rights for the Arabs. But when
it's a matter of our rights, everyone is quiet. When Noam Federman is placed
in administrative detention and spends almost nine months in detention, none
of you object to this.
Q: That's not true. I wrote an article attacking Noam Federman's
administrative detention. I added that it was difficult for me to write the
article because I knew that if Federman were in my place, he would not have
objected to my administrative detention.
Ben-Gvir: You democrats, you're the ones who need to play by these
rules. We're not democrats. We're not bound by these rules. Why was Kach
outlawed? Is this democratic?
Q: It was described as a terrorist organization.
Ben-Gvir: Is Kach a terrorist organization?
Q: Baruch Goldstein was a member of Kach, and the four boys who threw
a bomb in the market were members of Kach. I think that the murderers who
killed two elderly Arabs in revenge for the assassination of Rabbi Kahane
were also members of Kach.
Ben-Gvir: And so what? Do you know how many murderers there are in the
Likud?
Q: Excuse me?
Ben-Gvir [getting excited]: Dozens of Likud members have been
convicted of murder, but no one thought to ban the Likud because of it.
(Commenting on this, the Likud said that this is another incorrect,
delusionary statement from Mr. Ben-Gvir, undeserving of a response.)
Ben-Gvir: Now, you're talking to me about violence. Do you know how
much violence was caused by banning the Kach movement? There is a saying
that when voices are silenced, hands go to work. Rabbi Kahane was the
subject of extremist acts. Baruch Goldstein, a year before his act, met with
one our followers and said that he could no longer stand it, because they
had closed the democratic path before us. They prevented Kach from standing
in Knesset elections, he said, and now they want to prevent it from standing
in local elections.
Note something else. Based on a study conducted by Haifa University ,
64% of Jews support the solution we propose: expelling the Arab enemy. We
represent a party that would win 25-30 seats, but in your supposed
democracy, we can't express ourselves.
Q: More than 70% of Jews support a withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, but
I don't see you changing your mind because of that.
Ben-Gvir: There is no majority that can change my mind in anything. I
am not a democrat.
Q: You can't have it both ways. Either the majority is important or
it's not.
Ben-Gvir [laughing]: I'm forced to play according to your rules. Let's
assume than someone is pointing a gun at my head. He says, let's play
soccer. Do I have a choice? I'll play soccer with him. Let's assume I made
ten goals. He'll tell me, No, I've changed the rules. You goals you made
count against you. That's what's happening here. I'm not a democrat. I'm not
bound by democracy, but you are. You're hypocrites.
You won't find anyone handing out flowers to those who evacuate
settlements
Q: You said you were being harassed. Who is harassing you?
Ben-Gvir: The state's attorney, the police, Shin Bet, the courts. What
we say bothers them and bothers the authorities. They've harassed us since
the dissolution of Kach.
Q: Kach was dissolved in 1994. There have been four governments since
then. Did all these governments harass you?
Ben-Gvir: The state prosecutor doesn't change when the government
changes. I wish it were like the US here. There all employees are removed
from their positions when the president changes.
Q: Give me an example of persecution.
Ben-Gvir: Listen, a long time ago, they accused me of assaulting a
policeman. There were riots, and a policeman started beating one of our
young men while he was on the ground. I intervened and stopped him from
beating the boy. I was accused of assaulting a policeman. Farkash, the judge
at the Magistrate's Court, ruled that this was “a selective application of
the law” and acquitted me.
Q: You've been acquitted 32 times. Can you really claim the courts are
harassing you?
Ben-Gvir: This is how they preserve themselves and the façade of
democracy. They say, we've acquitted Ben-Gvir of the crime of hanging
flyers—have they ever tried anyone for hanging flyers? But at the same time,
they silence me.
Q: What do you think of Shin Bet's Jewish Department [a unit charged
with investigating Jewish terrorism—ed.]?
Ben-Gvir [laughing]: We call it the Department for Harassing Jews.
Their history is filled with failures. They haven't succeeded in anything.
They didn't prevent the assassination of Rabin, and they convicted no one.
Their most successful agent was Avishai Raviv, and his greatest success was
arresting a young man who was throwing stones. I sincerely hope that Shin
Bet's Arab Department is more successful. If not, we're lost.
How will you come to power? The people will rebel
Q: You are planning to take control of the state. How will you do
this?
Ben-Gvir: In one of two ways. Either we will win in elections, and
that's not possible right now, or the people will rebel. People will not
accept what is happening here forever. At some point, tens of thousands are
going to take to the streets. The entire democratic system is rotten. I
don't think there is any difference between Zevulun Orlev and Yossi Sarid.
Q: Is there really no difference?
Ben-Gvir: Yossi Sarid supports the evacuation of settlements, and
Zevulun Orlev is a member of a government that evacuated settlements. I see
no difference between them. They're both disgusting.
Q: That's what Rabbi Kahane said about Begin and Peres.
Ben-Gvir: Exactly.
Q: You've called Yossi Sarid a traitor.
Ben-Gvir: Yes, he's a traitor.
Q: Do you really believe that someone who does what he believes is
best for the state of Israel is a traitor?
Ben-Gvir: I don't doubt Yossi Sarid's intentions, but I look at the
consequences. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Yossi Sarid,
despite his good intentions, has led us into hell.
(Meretz-Yachad said that the only response to Ben-Gvir's statement
must come from the judiciary, which has thus far failed to deal with him.)
Q: How will you act with those who come to evacuate the settlements?
Ben-Gvir: They won't be greeted with a bouquet of roses.
Q: Uri Elitzur talked about using weapons.
Ben-Gvir: The soldiers and police will be the ones to fire first. In
all the evacuations that have taken place thus far, they have put snipers in
strategic positions. The sniper isn't there to direct traffic. That's not
why they put him there. There is strong incitement against us. Look at the
recent statements of the head of the Shin Bet, who is laying the groundwork
for violence against us. If they shoot at us, there will be someone to
respond.
Q: Let's assume that everything you say will happen. Let's assume you
just won 30 or more seats in the elections. What would the state look like?
Ben-Gvir: We will not start to occupy the world. We must first reform
Israel .
Q: By transferring the Arabs?
Ben-Gvir: Yes.
Q: Do you think the world would be silent?
Ben-Gvir: Listen, after the assassination of Yassin and Rantisi, they
said it would lead to disaster, but there was no disaster. It's time to stop
thinking about what they'll say about us. Let's think about our own
interests. We are a people who will live alone. We don't need to consider
Gentiles. Why don't we bomb from the air instead of endangering the lives of
our soldiers? Does anyone say anything to the Americans when they fight and
indiscriminately bomb?
Q: Your vision of the state includes a temple, a Sanhedrin, and a
king. Is that correct?
Ben-Gvir: There are many forms, but that's generally correct.
Q: You can build a temple and you can also form a Sanhedrin, but how
will you find a king? Much blood has been shed over the centuries to
determine who shall be king.
Ben-Gvir: The Torah speaks much about the ideal type of rule and about
the laws that must be applied, but there are no precise guidelines on how to
choose him.
Q: Would you like to say anything in closing?
Ben-Gvir: Do you know the settlement of Ramat Raziel? It was named
after David Raziel. There are also streets named after him. David Raziel
blew up Arab buses.
Q: He was the first leader of the Irgun Gang. He was killed in Iraq .
Ben-Gvir: Yes, that's right. But he blew up Arab buses, and now he's a
hero. There are streets named after him. One day, in dozens of years, there
will also be a Goldstein Street , and Baruch Goldstein will also be a hero.
The people will realize that Kahane was right.
Q: What will be the role of Itamar Ben-Gvir in all this?
Ben-Gvir: I'll lead the vanguard that will pull the people along.
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July 13, 2004