Origin of "Nine Famous Irishmen" story?
Taylor Kingston
the Internet, pub menus, placemats, posters, etc.: "Nine Famous
Irishmen." I append it at the end of this post.
At first I found it very attractive, but then I began reasearching
its claims. It is riddled with errors! Very few of its claims are
true. Some of the nine were never even arrested. Only four of the nine
were ever convicted and transported, and not all to Australia. Only
two of them attained any of the positions they are said to have
attained, and most of them were dead well before 1874. One of them
probably never even existed. Professor David Wilson of the University
of Toronto, biographer of one of the nine, calls it "probably the
greatest concentration of Irish-American myths in a single space."
What I'm trying to find out is: when, where and from whom did this
story originate? I've tracked it back to at least 1974, but that was
in a genealogical newsletter that was just repeating an already
established "urban legend." So if anyone has a lead on where it came
from, please post it here.
Taylor Kingston
NINE FAMOUS IRISHMEN
In the Young Irish disorders in Ireland in 1848 the following nine
men were captured, tried, and convicted of treason against Her Majesty
The Queen, and were sentenced to death: John Mitchell, Morris Lyene,
Pat Donahue, Thomas McGee, Charles Duffy, Thomas Meagher, Richard
O’Gorman, Terrence McManus, and Michael Ireland.
Before passing sentence, the judge asked if there was anything that
anyone wished to say. Meagher, speaking for all, said: “My Lord, this
is our first offense but not our last. If you will be easy with us
this once, we promise, on our word as gentlemen, to try to do better
next time. And next time — sure we won’t be fools to get caught!”
Thereupon the indignant judge sentenced them all to be hanged by the
neck until dead, and drawn and quartered. Passionate protest from all
the world forced Queen Victoria to commute the sentence to
transportation for life to far wild Australia.
In 1874, word reached the astounded Queen Victoria that the Sir
Charles Duffy who had been elected Prime Minister of Australia was the
same Charles Duffy who had been transported 25 years before. On the
Queen's demand, the records of the rest of the transported men were
revealed and this is what was uncovered:
THOMAS FRANCIS MEAGHER, Governor of Montana
TERENCE McMANUS, Brigadier General, U.S. Army
PATRICK DONAHUE, Brigadier General, U.S. Army
RICHARD O’GORMAN, Governor General of Newfoundland
MORRIS LYENE, Attorney General of Australia, in which office Michael
Ireland succeeded him
THOMAS D’ARCY MCGEE, Member of Parliament, Montreal, Minister of
Agriculture and President of Council, Dominion of Canada
JOHN MITCHELL, prominent New York politician. This man was the
father of John Purroy Mitchell, Mayor of New York at the outbreak of
World War I.
Special Care
Niall of the nine sausages..........
Special Care
> Sounds a bit like
> Niall of the nine sausages..........
Begob Sir !
I think Augustus O'Nobody may possibly be a descendant of Niall of the
Nine Sausages, bejayzizz Paddy !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages
Taylor Kingston
Aside from also involving Ireland and the number nine, this story
doesn't seem to relate much to mine. But thanks for the laugh. ;-)
Ray O'Hara
"Taylor Kingston" <taylor....@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:233d714d-8398-4f12...@p33g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
================================================================================
THOMAS FRANCIS MEAGHER, Original commander of the 69th NY and then the
Iish Brigade of the Army of the Potomac
The ferocity with which the Irish fought for the Union went a long way to
helping the Irish gain acceptence in America,
100,000 Irishmen fought for the Union and they were all among the best
troops.
The Irish, the best troops in every army but their own
Taylor Kingston
> "Taylor Kingston" <taylor.kings...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:233d714d-8398-4f12...@p33g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 5, 3:08 pm, Special Care <special.car...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 5, 8:01 pm, Special Care <special.car...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Sounds a bit like
> > > Niall of the nine sausages..........
>
> > Begob Sir !
>
> > I think Augustus O'Nobody may possibly be a descendant of Niall of the
> > Nine Sausages, bejayzizz Paddy
> > !http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages
>
> Aside from also involving Ireland and the number nine, this story
> doesn't seem to relate much to mine. But thanks for the laugh. ;-)
>
>
> THOMAS FRANCIS MEAGHER, Original commander of the 69th NY and then the
> Iish Brigade of the Army of the Potomac
> The ferocity with which the Irish fought for the Union went a long way to
> helping the Irish gain acceptence in America,
> 100,000 Irishmen fought for the Union and they were all among the best
> troops.
> The Irish, the best troops in every army but their own
Yes, Meagher is one of the few people whose facts the story gets at
all right. He was de facto acting governor of the Montana territory
for a while. But for some reason, the story omits his being a
brigadier general, instead conferring that rank on MacManus and
O'Donoghue, who were actually never in the US military, let alone as
generals. Also at his sentencing, Meagher did not give the flippant
speech attributed to him.
The only other person the story gets much right about is Thomas
D'Arcy McGee, who did hold the offices described, but not under the
Dominion of Canada, which didn't exist until mid-1867. But McGee
eluded the authorities in 1848, sailing to America, and was never
arrested, let alone tried and sentenced to death.
I'm not after details about the nine men in the story. I have
already researched that thoroughly. I am trying to find out who wrote
this fable in the first place, and where and when. Probably little
chance of finding out, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
A.Dazzle
> Recently I became aware of a story that's become very widespread on
> the Internet, pub menus, placemats, posters, etc.: "Nine Famous
> Irishmen." I append it at the end of this post.
This seems more accurate than your appended story
(from the limited Internet research I've done):
http://www.ninefineirishmen.com/history.asp
And this page also has more accurate information:
(Especially at the bottom!;-):
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/meagher_young_irelanders.html
It might be interesting to follow up the missing ones from the various
Nine Famous Irishmen lists. (The lists don't all seem to agree on the nine.)
Also what happened to the others at the trials, or the ones not arrested.
(For example the 'Houdini'-style escape man.)
Good Luck with finding the origins, tho.
Sophistry Made Simple
"A.Dazzle" <adaz...@AMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:h5mdncRZQbG48mnX...@bt.com...
> "Taylor Kingston" <taylor....@comcast.net> wrote ...
>> Recently I became aware of a story that's become very widespread on
>> the Internet, pub menus, placemats, posters, etc.: "Nine Famous
>> Irishmen." I append it at the end of this post.
> ...
> This seems more accurate than your appended story
> (from the limited Internet research I've done):
> http://www.ninefineirishmen.com/history.asp
>
> And this page also has more accurate information:
> (Especially at the bottom!;-):
> http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/meagher_young_irelanders.html
You wouldn't like to have another look at that page, just to check the name
of the person that wrote the bit at the end?
Taylor Kingston
> "Taylor Kingston" <taylor.kings...@comcast.net> wrote ...> Recently I became aware of a story that's become very widespread on
> > the Internet, pub menus, placemats, posters, etc.: "Nine Famous
> > Irishmen." I append it at the end of this post.
>
> ...
> This seems more accurate than your appended story
> (from the limited Internet research I've done):http://www.ninefineirishmen.com/history.asp
Yes, it is much more accurate and complete. Unlike most pubs, this
one seems to have done some research, rather than just parrot the
fable.
> And this page also has more accurate information:
> (Especially at the bottom!;-):http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/meagher_young_irelanders.html
Yes, if you check again there, you'll see that Mr. Wilson got most
of that from me. Of all the websites posting the story that I have
visited, his was the only one expressing any doubts. I got in touch
with him and we shared information.
> It might be interesting to follow up the missing ones from the various
> Nine Famous Irishmen lists. (The lists don't all seem to agree on the nine.)
I don't know why nine seems to be a magic number here. There were
never nine Young Irelanders who fit all the story's specifications of
being sentenced to death, having that sentence commuted, then being
transported and gaining later eminence. Of the nine in the story, only
five or six were arrested, only four were convicted and only three
were sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered (later commuted to
transportation).
Glaringly absent from the story is William Smith O'Brien, most
prominent and famous of the Young Irelanders. He was also sentenced to
death, but he served out his time in Tasmania, was eventually
pardoned, and never attained any noteworthy prominence afterwards.
Two others missing, who would have fit the triumph-over-adversity
theme better than some, were Kevin Izod O’Doherty (1823-1905) and John
Martin (1812-1875). They were convicted (though not sentenced to
death), transported to Tasmania in 1849, pardoned in 1854, and went on
to reasonably successful careers by 1874.
The most glaringly bad inclusions are MacManus and O'Donoghue as
brigadier generals, and "Morris Lyene" and "Michael Ireland" as
Attorneys General of Australia. The first two never joined the US
Army, let alone became generals, and neither was successful, in
particular O'Donoghue, who was in poor health when he escaped, and
died about two years later. "Morris Lyene" was actually Maurice Leyne,
who was not convicted and died of typhoid in 1854, never once setting
foot in Australia. And "Michael Ireland" seems to be pure fiction; I
can find no record of any such person in connection with the 1848
rebellion. And the office of Attorney General of Australia did not
exist until 1901.
> Also what happened to the others at the trials, or the ones not arrested.
> (For example the 'Houdini'-style escape man.)
Not sure who you're referring to. O'Gorman may have disguised
himself as a woman to escape, and D'Arcy McGee posed as a seminary
student or priest.
Wikipedia has articles on 13 Young Irelanders, accessible from a
list here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Ireland#Young_Irelanders
Not half bad for a web-site, though of course I've been doing a lot
of research in printed sources as well.
> Good Luck with finding the origins, tho.
One might think it would have started in late 19th- or early 20th-
century Ireland, where it would have been useful for propaganda and
morale. But when I contacted the office of the Dictionary of Irish
Biography, they had never heard of it.
A.Dazzle
Why do you think the winking smiley is there?;-)
Sophistry Made Simple
"A.Dazzle" <adaz...@AMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
Ah yes, indeed. Sorry, I don't speak smiley...
A.Dazzle
...
> Yes, if you check again there, you'll see that Mr. Wilson got most
> of that from me.
...
> > Also what happened to the others at the trials, or the ones not
> > arrested.
> > (For example the 'Houdini'-style escape man.)
> Not sure who you're referring to.
BTW - I found:
'British Library holds The Life and Letters of John Martin, with
sketches of Thomas Devin Reilly, Father John Kenyon, and other
young Irelanders; by the author of Life of John Mitchel, &c.
(Dublin: J. Duffy & Co. 1893),
pp.xiii+297. Notes, John Kenyon, RC Priest of Templederry;
John Martin, Editor of The Irish Felon; Thomas Devin Reilly.
Life of Mitchel by P. A. Sillard (Duffy 1889)'
These 2 books may have some information on the times and the people.
(Apologies if you know of them already.)
...
> One might think it would have started in late 19th- or early 20th-
> century Ireland, where it would have been useful for propaganda ...
It looks to me like the sort of article that the Ireland's Own magazine
would have published. They've been going over 100 years...
Must have used it once!;-)
Taylor Kingston
> "Taylor Kingston" <taylor.kings...@comcast.net> wrote...
Thank you. I will look into those sources. I have not looked into
Reilly so far, since he was not named in the story.
anon
Not sure if I'd be of help here. I was told this story as a kid growing up--that a great great grandfather had been a barrister for the Nine Famous Irishmen. As a sign of thanks, they gave him an engraved snuff box, so the story goes. I have some documentation but not a sense of how to date it or to contextualize it. The snuff box is real but I don't have it. The only names listed in the engraving (aside from my twice-great grandfather) are Meagher, O'Donohoe, and McManus, dated 1849.
Go n-éirí an t-adh leat
aim...@gmail.com
Are you still researching the 9FI legend ?
Being somewhat of Irish dissent and intrigued by the ‘legend’, I started doing some research and came across your posts. Any chance of your sharing what you have been anle to validate... or debunk... about the infamous/famous group of Young Irish ?
If you would prefer, I am at Aim...@Yahoo.co m
Or Aimin41@Gmail. com. SPACES are intentional, to web-crawlers looking for emails.