Bushmill and fair employement
Paul Moloney
>just heard that an Irish pub in San Francisco has poured down the drain
>all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
>only employs one catholic.
It seems to be a particularly idiotic boycott; as far as
I'm aware, noone in Northern Ireland supports it; indeed,
the leader of the SDLP, John Hume, has condemned it.
The distillery is in a mainly Protestant area, and has
a workforce in proportion to the makeup of the area.
P.
--
billhicksbakersfieldpdmoorcockpratchettdelasoulorbitalbjorkclivejamesbatman
vr p a u l m o l o n e y "I would like to make love to you. You are
pe dublin ireland very wrinkled. It would be interesting."
neworderjohnwoosugarcubeshuntersthompson http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~pmoloney/
Rod Williams
>>just heard that an Irish pub in San Francisco has poured down the drain
>>all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
>>only employs one catholic.
>
>It seems to be a particularly idiotic boycott; as far as
>I'm aware, noone in Northern Ireland supports it; indeed,
>the leader of the SDLP, John Hume, has condemned it.
>
>The distillery is in a mainly Protestant area, and has
>a workforce in proportion to the makeup of the area.
It seems that some local Irish-American (probably a Jameson's
distributor :-)) put the boycott idea in the ear of our
excitable new mayor, Willie Brown. Willie then staged the
media event, pouring several bottles <sob> of Bushmills down
the drain and announcing the boycott. Within days, Hume's
comments about Bushmills demographics hit the papers, and
there hasn't been a squeak about the boycott ever since.
Rod (who prefers Paddy anyway)
--
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
\_ Rod Williams \_ Pacific * Bell \_ \_
\_ \_ San Francisco \_ rjw...@pacbell.com \_
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
christophe meudec
just heard that an Irish pub in San Francisco has poured down the drain
all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
only employs one catholic.
Are they mistaken or correct?
regards,
--------------------
Christophe Meudec
University of York, UK
Department of Computer Science
ch...@minster.york.ac.uk
Tel: 01904 434732
Jerry Desmond
>
>>pmol...@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney) wrote:
>>>christophe meudec <ch...@minster.york.ac.uk> writes:
>
>>>all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
>>>only employs one catholic.
>>
>>I'm aware, noone in Northern Ireland supports it; indeed,
>>the leader of the SDLP, John Hume, has condemned it.
>>
>>The distillery is in a mainly Protestant area, and has
>>a workforce in proportion to the makeup of the area.
>
>It seems that some local Irish-American (probably a Jameson's
>distributor :-)) put the boycott idea in the ear of our
>excitable new mayor, Willie Brown. Willie then staged the
>media event, pouring several bottles <sob> of Bushmills down
>the drain and announcing the boycott. Within days, Hume's
>comments about Bushmills demographics hit the papers, and
>there hasn't been a squeak about the boycott ever since.
I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
a Protestant.
I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics have
autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs were made
available.
BTW, my boycott is not a personal hardship, since I too prefer
Paddy, which I bought for our small St. Patrick's Day dinner today. Our
guests will have to do without Bushmill, however.
Slainte, Jerry
xxx
Steve Glover
>just heard that an Irish pub in San Francisco has poured down the drain
>all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
>only employs one catholic.
>Are they mistaken or correct?
Both. Pouring the whiskey away was mistaken, supposing Bushmills Distillery
employs WAY less (can't remember number, may have been as high as three) less
than the national percentages would make apprpriate.
However, someone posted here, and it wasn't shot down (to my knowledge), that
this has more to do with the local distribution (I've travelled around the
Portballantrae and Bushfoot/Bushmills area, and there used to be a simply
hideous amount of red/white/blue paint on the roads and pavements).
In any case, having a significant percentage of a population boycotting Black
Bush, maybe the price will drop to where I can afford it again -- I should
hope.
Steve
steve....@ukonline.co.uk, using Free Agent
No longer kur...@tardis.ed.ac.uk or steve_...@hicom.lut.ac.uk
and soon not even ss...@festival.ed.ac.uk...
Thomas Collins
What a waste of good whiskey?????
Strange people.....
Bernard A Troy
Earlier posts have pointed out that the pouring of Bushmill
whiskey into the sewer was done by Willie Brown, the Mayor of San Francisco.
However, it might be difficult, for those unfamiliar with
California politics to capture the flavor of this piece of political
theater. For more years than any other legislator, Willie Brown served
as speaker of the Assembly (lower chamber of the legislature of the State
of California). He is acknowledged by those who supported him and those
who detested him to have been the most astute and clever politician of
this generation. As a Democratic legislator, he made it difficult or
impossible for the governors (who have been Republicans for the last
thirteen years) to move forward their legislative agendas. He was forced
out of the legislature last year by an amendment to the state
constitution that limited the number of terms a candidate could serve.
At that point, Brown ran for the office of Mayor of the city of
San Francisco and was elected. During statewide elections last year,
Brown's nemesis, Governor Pete Wilson, garnered a lot of support for his
position that the state is being overrun by immigrants (principally
Mexican immigrants). Shortly after his re-election, the governor took a
position that state Affirmative Action programs (laws to insure equitable
access of minorities to employment) were no longer necessary and should
be abolished. His appointees to the Board of Trustees of the University
of California also abolished University of California Affirmative Action
programs.
As a liberal Democrat, as an African American, and as a longtime
personal foe of Pete Wilson, the governor's attack on Affirmative Action
must certainly nettle Willie Nelson, particularly in view of the fact
that he is no longer in the legislature where he would have more power to
joust with Wilson. But there is a large Irish Catholic population in San
Francisco, and the pouring out of the Bushmill's had a lot more
subliminal reference to the situation concerning Affirmative Action in
California than to employment in Belfast. I am sure that a lot of those
who applauded Brown for his action did not support him for election and
might not support his position on Affirmative Action; he never misses an
opportunity to make a public show of incongruities like that.
As an ironic coincidence, California newspapers yesterday and
today carried stories confirmed by the University of California, that the
university has a "special office" to receive requests for admission to
the university of friends of the influential (politicians, the wealthy
and the notorious). The governor, who campaigned on the platform that
admissions to the university should be on qualifications alone, with no
other considerations involved, is reported to have requested special
consideration for the children of friends and supporters of his. I have
a hunch that Willie Brown and some of his close friends have holed up in
a room somewhere and have broken out the Bushmill's to celebrate that one!
Bernie Troy bt...@oboe.calpoly.edu
christophe meudec
>
> christophe meudec wrote:
>
> > just heard that an Irish pub in San Francisco has poured down the drain
> > all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
> > only employs one catholic.
>
> think its fair to assume that there are very few Roman Catholics in the area, therefore
> I wouldn't put blame on the distillery.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
> --
Under current legislation in NI I beleive that pro-active actions have to be taken when
the balance of employment is too much biased towards one denomination or another.
Has Bushmill's distillery ever implemented something like it? What does the Fair
Employment Commission say about them? Any reports available somewhere?
Regards,
P.S. what's your definition of 'area'? Some people commute from quite far to go to work
from the Glens to Belfast, I am sure they wouldn't mind commuting to Bushmill instead if
they had the opportunity to hear about the jobs there.
Gareth G Davis
: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
: register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
: where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
: a Protestant.
Woww what a great idea. I'm an Irish citizen and I'm looking for good,
non-violent ways to register concern over private sector anti-black
discrimination in the US where African-American youths are 3 times more
likely to be unemployed than White Youths. Now I can't be bothered to look
into each company that I buy from so I'm going to cut down as much as
possible on any purchases that I make from all US companies.
Do you think I'll be able to get my "Davis Principles" enacted in
European legislatures which bans purchases from any US companies which
fail to take steps to have 12% African-Americans employed at all levels
of responsibility?
: I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
: Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics have
: autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs were made
: available.
Now I don't care if these companies are located in Mississippi (40%
African-American) or Idaho(>1% African American). I'm sure if jobs were
really made available to African-Americans in these areas they would travel
there to take them up. So any US company which doesn't employ 12%
African-Americans, regardless of location, should be boycotted.
: BTW, my boycott is not a personal hardship, since I too prefer
: Paddy, which I bought for our small St. Patrick's Day dinner today. Our
: guests will have to do without Bushmill, however.
I'm still waiting for the great rush of outrage to arise on this side of
the Atlantic over Sean Quinn's employment policies in Fermanagh/Cavan.
But then again I'll probably have a long wait.
: Slainte, Jerry
: xxx
:
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Some day these people are gonna get good government, and they ain't
gonna like it one bit".
Huey Long
(Former Louisiana Govenor and Senator)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sweeney the Wanderer
>Path:
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>.umass.edu!pop
>From: p...@cs.umass.edu ( Robin Popplestone )
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
>Subject: Re: Bushmill and fair employement
>Date: 21 Mar 1996 14:25:37 GMT
>Organization: CS Dept., Umass-Amherst
>Lines: 31
>Sender: p...@roo.cs.umass.edu ( Robin Popplestone )
>Message-ID: <4irot1$8...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>
>References: <314A04...@minster.york.ac.uk> <4ichkb$8...@salmon.maths.tcd.ie>
><4ictf3$q...@gw.PacBell.COM> <4if4mo$n...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>
><4imkik$r...@portal.gmu.edu>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: roo.cs.umass.edu
>To: gda...@osf1.gmu.edu (Gareth G Davis)
>: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
>: register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>: where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
>: a Protestant.
>Congratulations to Jerry! I have been wondering for some years how long it would
>take people like him to come round to a Bushmills boycott, and even muttering
>not-so-sotto-voce "good protestant whiskey" as I walked out of liquor stores in
>Massachusetts. Now for what you will be doing the year after next....
>(Actually I recommend reading John Hume's new book for a clear-headed
>statement of the case for Irish unity - I hope Hume is the real prophet
>of how those who seek unity will, in the future, proceed,
>and that you will be echoing his generous words.)
>When there was an attempt to derail the ACIS meeting at Queens University
>Belfast last year, a missive emerged from some greenery or other denouncing my
>(as it happens) alma mater for failing to have a RC/Proddy ratio among the
>teaching staff that matched the ratio among the student body (a little over 50%
>RC). Well, how does that compare with Yale, situated in New Haven, a largely
>Afro American city, in which neither the faculty nor the student body have
>anything approaching the composition of the local community?
>In the case of QUB, there would seem to be a clear case that the teaching staff,
>for fairness, should match the national (and of course I mean British) ratio,
>since the recruitment area for a university is normally national, with something
>of an international fringe. I would agree that non-teaching staff should reflect
>the local community. QUB does in fact have an equal-opportunities program.
>Robin Popplestone.
Protestant booze vs. Catholic booze? Let me guess: the bottles have different
feet?
Sweeney
Mark Devlin
j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
> I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
>register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
>a Protestant.
Better than bombs, certainly. But not a very good way to register concern
about private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI, as the Bushmills
distillery doesn't practise it.
> I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
>Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics have
>autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs were made
>available.
I don't know about any _segregated_ largely protestant areas around the
facility. But the ordinary area _is_ largely protestant. Perhaps catholics
would travel in, if jobs were made available. But they're not generally
being made available, to catholics _or_ protestants. As the distillery
updates its technology, it has places for fewer workers of whatever
persuasion. The company has been building up a visitors' centre, and this is
the one area where jobs _have_ been available - and most of these jobs have
gone to catholics. If enough well-meaning but ill-informed Americans are
suckered by the San Francisco mayor's clever little publicity stunt, perhaps
the firm's sales will drop and these jobs will have to be cut. The boycott
is unlikely to have so strong an effect, but even in the best-case scenario,
it's simply wrong-headed. If you don't want to take my word for it, ask John
Hume.
Just to do my bit to support the oppressed catholics who've found employment
at Bushmills, I picked up a bottle at the duty-free yesterday. I generally
prefer whisky without the "e", but drinking Bushmills is not a personal
hardship.
--
Mark Devlin <mde...@bu.edu> Boston, USA
=====================================================================
It's a girl! Anne Devlin, born 20 February 1996 at 12:32 GMT
Seven pounds, six ounces (3350g), twenty and a half inches (52cm)
*********************************************************************
"...A stranger here
Strange things doth meet, strange glories see;
Strange treasures lodged in this fair world appear,
Strange all and new to me;
But that they mine should be, who nothing was,
That strangest is of all, yet brought to pass."
T. Traherne, "The Salutation" (ca. 1665)
=====================================================================
Steve Glover
> I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
>register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
>a Protestant.
If you want to gather socio-political warm fuzzies, then fine... It's
certainly a high-profile boycott. And it *may* help point out to people that
something is rotten in the system. However...
> I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
>Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics have
>autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs were made
>available.
Any "segregating" in that area of North Antrim was done four hundred years
ago. Further, car ownership is nothing like as high over here as 'stateside
(families with zero or one car are more common than those with two), and the
rural (Bushmill_S_ is *way* out in the sticks -- part of its charm) public
transport isn't too good, either.
And, if you've seen any of the Scotch Whisky advertisements ('fiddich or
Macallan, I can't remember which -- "made by the Twelve Men of [placename]"),
you'd realise that a distillery is not exactly a large employer, in any case.
> BTW, my boycott is not a personal hardship, since I too prefer
>Paddy, which I bought for our small St. Patrick's Day dinner today. Our
>guests will have to do without Bushmill, however.
Well, I'm sorry, but that just about puts the tin hat on it: "my boycott is
not a personal hardship", indeed. If there are two (or more) products
marketted of a certain type, and you like one more than the other, then you
can't *really* be said to be boycotting the other...
Take my kids (cue old joke): they used to *really like* the Rowntrees
confectionery range, but now they won't touch any of it because Rowntrees is
owned and operated by Nestle'.
Steve, thinking you should perhaps look at a map and consider things like
local amenites versus those available in a city, amount of housing available
locally, and travel times...
BlackBeard
Davis) wrote:
> Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>
> :> Woww what a great idea. I'm an Irish citizen and I'm looking for good,
> non-violent ways to register concern over private sector anti-black
> discrimination in the US where African-American youths are 3 times more
> likely to be unemployed than White
<snip>
> Now I don't care if these companies are located in Mississippi (40%
> African-American) or Idaho(>1% African American). I'm sure if jobs were
> really made available to African-Americans in these areas they would travel
> there to take them up. So a
<snip>
>
> I'm still waiting for the great rush of outrage to arise on this side of
> the Atlantic over Sean Quinn's employment policies in Fermanagh/Cavan.
> But then again I'll probably have a long wait.
>
>
> : Slainte, Jerry
hehehe great post. but how dare you try to put reason and logic into an
argument! (you must be single ;)
I for one believe I have found the perfect way to resolve the issue.
Every time I buy a bottle or glass of Bushmills, I am now also buying a
bottle/glass of Jamesons. I think that should help to even things out ;)
Slainte vo
Sean P
Darren Aitcheson
> I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
>Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics have
>autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs were made
>available.
Maybe you should try learning about the area then...
Most of North Antrim is overwhelmingly Protestant (I should know - I
lived there for 20 years); there are a few Roman Catholic 'enclaves'
such as Dunloy and Ballycastle, and other than that, most Roman
Catholics in the area would be farmers, so wouldn't particularly
require a job in Bushmills Distillery. If I had the option of a job 5
minutes walk away or one 30 minutes drive away, I know which I'd
choose.
Darren Aitcheson,
Kainos Software Ltd.,
Belfast, N.Ireland.
Darren Aitcheson
<ch...@minster.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>Under current legislation in NI I beleive that pro-active actions have to be taken when
>the balance of employment is too much biased towards one denomination or another.
Only when the balance is completely out of line with the surrounding
area.
>What does the Fair
>Employment Commission say about them?
Well, I haven't heard any complaints from them.
>P.S. what's your definition of 'area'? Some people commute from quite far to go to work
>from the Glens to Belfast, I am sure they wouldn't mind commuting to Bushmill instead if
>they had the opportunity to hear about the jobs there.
You appear to ignore the facts here:
1. The roads are better between the Glens and Belfast.
2. There are buses between the Glens and Belfast. There are none
between the Glens and Bushmills.
3. Most of the people who commute from the Glens would be
professionals, for whom there would be very few jobs in Bushmills
Distillery.
Come on Chris, you studied at Queen's, so you should know what the
situation on the ground in Northern Ireland is!
Robin Popplestone
Ashlad
inventing that peaceful form of protest) I remember reading somewhere that
all the Irish whiskey companies are controlled by large firms in the U.K..
Is this true, and if so, are the firms connected?
Jerry Desmond
>
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>
>: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen
>: to
>: register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>: where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed
>: than
>: a Protestant.
>
>non-violent ways to register concern over private sector anti-black
>likely to be unemployed than White Youths. Now I can't be bothered to look
>into each company that I buy from so I'm going to cut down as much as
>possible on any purchases that I make from all US companies.
>
have achieved their objective (the boycott of South Africa comes to mind)
but more often they have failed (eg, the gay community' boycott of Colorado
for having passed an initiative preempting local gay rights laws). I would
recommend that you single out a specific company and product, as the
Reverend Jessee Jackson did with Nike athletic shoes. Reverend Jackson
noted that African-American youth constituted a major portion of Nike's
customer base, but that they did not hire an appropriate number (I can't
remember his percentage "goal"). So Jackson annocunced an African-American
boycott of Nike athletic shoes, and within a week had brought Nike to its
knees, ie, Nike agreed to meet Jackson's employment goals.
>Do you think I'll be able to get my "Davis Principles" enacted in
>European legislatures which bans purchases from any US companies which
>fail to take steps to have 12% African-Americans employed at all levels
>of responsibility?
>
>: I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
>: Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics
>: have
>: autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs were
<: made
>: available.
>
>Now I don't care if these companies are located in Mississippi (40%
>African-American) or Idaho(>1% African American). I'm sure if jobs were
>really made available to African-Americans in these areas they would travel
>there to take them up. So any US company which doesn't employ 12%
>African-Americans, regardless of location, should be boycotted.
>
Now you are targetting only those companies that fail to employ 12%
African-Americans. This is less likely to be effective than a
Jackson type *single company, single product* boycott, but likely to be much
more successful than an *all companies and all products* boycott. I am not
qualified to predict whether or not European legislatures might enact your
"Davis principles", but I would suggest that you refine them to track the
"McBride principles" that are beginning to attract favorable attention in US
state legislatures. (Here in California, my friend John Burton sponsored
"McBride principles" legislation -- dealing with anti-Catholic
discrimination in private sector employment in NI -- that passed the
California legislature on two occassions, but in each case was vetoed by the
Governor.) Your "Davis principles" might well have good prospects in
European legislatures.
However, the daily commute from Mississippi to Idaho -- about 2000
kilometers -- is a bit much, even if the employee has his own Lear Jet.
The job offer would have to be good enough to induce the Mississippi
resident to move to Idaho.
Slainte, Jerry
but...@ee.tcd.ie
writes:
>In article <4is2vb$h...@rouge.usl.edu>, Terry McTigue <tam...@usl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>I was looking at a map of Ireland the other day and noticed a town
>>along the coast in County Cork named Baltimore. Is there any connection
>>to the city in the US of the same name? Baltimore, Maryland was named
>>after Lord Baltimore (family name of Calvert) who received the original
>>land grant for the colony. I remember from history class that this
>>Lord Baltimore was a Catholic who moved to the new world rather than
>>convert. I was under the impression that he was English, rather than
>>Irish. Does anyone know how the Irish Baltimore got it's name? Could
>>the Calverts have been landlords in the area? Or was Baltimore
>>a name that was found in several areas?
>
>I have heard that Baltimore comes from the Gaelic "Bailte Mo/ra",
>meaning "Big Towns".
Actually Baille an Tigh Mo/r, the townland of the big house.
>
>Cheers,
>Scott O.
>
>
Dr. Gerry Butler, CEng. MIEE. [but...@ee.tcd.ie]
TELTEC-TCD (Radio Propagation Planning), Trinity College,Dublin 2,Ireland
Dept. of Electronic and Electrical Engineering,
[ Dublin+Wicklow Mountain Rescue / EI0CH / EMT-D ]
Gareth G Davis
: In article <4imkik$r...@portal.gmu.edu>, gda...@osf1.gmu.edu says...
: >Woww what a great idea. I'm an Irish citizen and I'm looking for good,
: >non-violent ways to register concern over private sector anti-black
: >discrimination in the US where African-American youths are 3 times more
: >likely to be unemployed than White Youths. Now I can't be bothered to look
: >into each company that I buy from so I'm going to cut down as much as
: >possible on any purchases that I make from all US companies.
: >
: Broad based boycotts of *all companies & products* occassionally
: have achieved their objective (the boycott of South Africa comes to mind)
: but more often they have failed (eg, the gay community' boycott of Colorado
: for having passed an initiative preempting local gay rights laws). I would
: recommend that you single out a specific company and product, as the
: Reverend Jessee Jackson did with Nike athletic shoes.
My point was that you failed to find out sufficient detail on what
Bushmills did but just assumed that they discriminated against Catholics
(which according to John Hume,leader of NI's nationalists, is not the
case). Now the criteria laid out by the Mc Bride principles is, I
believe, that the composition of the workforce reflect the composition
of the local area.(I would say that its should be even more restrictive
and take into account things like local pool of _qualified_ applicants).
Now the Bushmills area is, and has been and all of the neighbourhood
around it, almost completely protestant. The nearest Catholic areas are
many miles away and given the fact that a) cars are much less common in NI
b) roads are not near as good and c) unemployed people tend not to
re-locate in NI (or in the UK as a whole) as easily because their
(public) housing is usually tied to a specific site, then it is not
really surprising that the Bushmills' plant's workforce is heavily
protestant (you also seems unaware that, as John Hume stated, in the
only part of the company in which new jobs have been created in recent
years (the visitor centre) Catholics are heavily _over_-represented.
(If you want a parallell you could take my area (Northern Virginia). DC
which is just 15 miles away has one of the highest unemployment rates in
the USA. Yet in my area unskilled jobs are left unfilled in great
numbers. Why? The jobs exist in the suburbs, the people to fill them
exist in the city yet (due to lack of affordable means of transportation) a
match does not take place. Now imagine what would be the case in
Bushmills where public transport is even scarcer and Catholci areas even
further away)
Now my point is that you decided to boycott Bushmills after having read a
single article on this newsgroup and without bothering to find out the
full facts of the story (or even what local Catholics thought).
: >Now I don't care if these companies are located in Mississippi (40%
: >African-American) or Idaho(>1% African American). I'm sure if jobs were
: >really made available to African-Americans in these areas they would travel
: >there to take them up. So any US company which doesn't employ 12%
: >African-Americans, regardless of location, should be boycotted.
: >
: Now you are targetting only those companies that fail to employ 12%
: African-Americans. This is less likely to be effective than a
: Jackson type *single company, single product* boycott, but likely to be much
: more successful than an *all companies and all products* boycott. I am not
: qualified to predict whether or not European legislatures might enact your
: "Davis principles", but I would suggest that you refine them to track the
: "McBride principles" that are beginning to attract favorable attention in US
: state legislatures.
: (Here in California, my friend John Burton sponsored
: "McBride principles" legislation -- dealing with anti-Catholic
: discrimination in private sector employment in NI -- that passed the
: California legislature on two occassions, but in each case was vetoed by the
: Governor.)
Ah so the Mc Bride (and Robb) principles deal only with anti-Catholic
discrimination. I've read them and they seem to deal with _religious_
discrimination in general (and believe me discrimination against
protestants occurs in NI also). Now I've read the principles and on paper
they seem fine (indeed they are very worthy principles and I would
support them).
But its interesting to see the motivations of many of those who support
them in the US. As revealed above when they're being pushed the only talk
is about anti-RC discrimination. Hatred is stirred up against
unionists/protestants and protestant-owned firms often (as was the case
with Bushmills and Willie Brown) on the basis of pure fiction. You
ommitted to mention my reference to Sean Quinn for example. He is
currently the owner of Ireland's largest hotel and largest cement works
on the Cavan/Fermanagh border. A few years ago his firm was audited by
the FEA and out of his workforce of almost 700 (its doubled since) was
found to be exclusively Catholic in an area where there is a large
protestant minority. Now the day I hear the Irish-American lobby
complaining of these sorts of outrages and using the Mc Bride principles to
combat it and organising boycott then thats the day that I will start
believing that their concern for Ireland is not merely sectarian and that
they care equally about the welfare of all Irish people, protestant and
catholic, unionist and nationalist.
Your "Davis principles" might well have good prospects in
: European legislatures.
: However, the daily commute from Mississippi to Idaho -- about 2000
: kilometers -- is a bit much, even if the employee has his own Lear Jet.
: The job offer would have to be good enough to induce the Mississippi
: resident to move to Idaho.
Now I really didn't mean this. I was just making the point that in
looking at the compostion of workforces, you _must_ take the nature of
the local population into account as you failed to do.
Rod Williams
> Broad based boycotts of *all companies & products* occassionally
>have achieved their objective (the boycott of South Africa comes to mind)
>but more often they have failed (eg, the gay community' boycott of Colorado
>for having passed an initiative preempting local gay rights laws)...
I wonder what makes you say that the Colorado boycott failed?
The boycott cost Colorado an estimated $120 million in lost
business, and the amendment has never been allowed by the
courts to go into effect. It will more than likely be declared
unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court later this year.
What's more to the point is that every other locality in the
U.S. facing similar initiatives to disenfranchise gay/lesbian
citizens have had to take into consideration the likely cost of
going through a similar boycott if they pass the discriminatory
legislation. And this *has* had a deterrent effect.
Seems like a success to me...
Rod
inquiziter
>In article <4ictf3$q...@gw.PacBell.COM>, rjw...@pacbell.com says...
>>
>>>pmol...@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney) wrote:
>>>>christophe meudec <ch...@minster.york.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>>>just heard that an Irish pub in San Francisco has poured down the drain
>>>>all its stock of whiskey coming from the Bushmill distillery because it
>>>>only employs one catholic.
etc.
I too , will be boycotting Bushmills
IF you think its bad only employing one or two Catholics then think on
THEY DO NOT employ any black/coloured people at all and thats a
disgrace in fact I don't think any black/coloured people live anywhere
near bushmills but that as you say is no excuse . should we start the
slave trade import to even up the odds.? I don't think so !
> I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly --
good , pity the " terror-ists" cannot see it that way !
Why not make 100% of people unemployed by boycotting
no sales no job ! surley even up the score!
GET REAL and be constructive - not distructive
>for a US citizen to
>register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
>a Protestant.
AH more propaganda you could have said -
concern over private sector anti-alcoholic discrimination in NI,
where an alcoholic has little chance etc.etc.
> I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
>Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics have
>autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's,
>if jobs were made available.
YES come and build a factory put some other employment there
besides the zoo and the booze factory
> BTW, my boycott is not a personal hardship, since I too prefer
>Paddy, which I bought for our small St. Patrick's Day dinner today. Our
>guests will have to do without Bushmill, however.
ooops, if you don't drink it anyway how can you personally boycott it
Slainte (wear you seat belt) it say's so on the road sign :->
What ever claims people have on this Ireland, I still prefer the
green grass to the red rivers of blood
Kevin john L
Thomas Collins
Thomas Collins
only old bushmills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lynette Warren
: I for one believe I have found the perfect way to resolve the issue.
: Every time I buy a bottle or glass of Bushmills, I am now also buying a
: bottle/glass of Jamesons. I think that should help to even things out ;)
Good strategy, Sean.
Doing anything based on Mayor Brown's guidance sets off the bullshit
alarm for me, anyway. I think the boycott is well-meaning, but not well
thought out. I've been to Bushmills and it is a Protestant area, but
there are Catholics who would work there if they could get jobs. Plenty
of Catholics in Derry who might appreciate a job just 40 minutes up the
road.
Probably would be a good idea to give Bushmills the benefit of the doubt
and see how its employment figures improve over the next couple of years
before thinking about a boycott.
Anyway, I don't imagine there are many Catholics working in the
distilleries on the island of Islay where my choice of spirits originates.
Not pouring anything out,
Lynette
Darren Aitcheson
>While I will certainly observe the boycott
Yes, that's a good idea. Observe the boycott, even though virtually
everyone on the group, and a respected politician such as John Hume
has said there is absolutely no justification for a boycott. Don't let
the facts spoil your little bit of fun, and never worry about putting
the Roman Catholics who _do_ work in Bushmills out of work.
Sweeney the Wanderer
>Path:
>news5.erols.com!news1.erols.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news.jsums.edu!gatech!
>newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demo
>n.net!demon!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!nntp0.brunel.ac.uk!strath-cs!queens-belfast.ac.
>uk!queens
>-belfast.ac.uk!nntp
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
>Subject: Re: Bushmill and fair employement
>From: gmo...@nyx.net (Gavan Moran)
>Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:33:17 GMT
>References: <314A04...@minster.york.ac.uk> <4ichkb$8...@salmon.maths.tcd.ie>
> <4ictf3$q...@gw.PacBell.COM> <4if4mo$n...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>
>Nntp-Posting-Host: supra07.ee.qub.ac.uk
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
>Lines: 23
>m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) wrote:
>>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>>: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>>: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
>>: register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>>: where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
>>: a Protestant.
>>Could you please inform me how many more times a black person in the USA is
>>more likely to be unemployed that a white person? Or can you tell me the
>>average salary of a black person in the USA comapred to a white person?
>>Would these figures entitle me to boycott all USA produce?
> Whilst youre at it Matthew, kindly inform us of the likelihood of
>unemployment amongst afro-caribbeans in GB vs that for white caucasians?
>Gavan
>--
>email: G.M...@ee.qub.ac.uk | "There can be only one"
> or gmo...@nyx.cs.du.edu | - the Highlander
Are you trying to induce Matthew to boycott himself??
Sweeney
Matthew Huntbach
: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
: register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
: where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
: a Protestant.
Could you please inform me how many more times a black person in the USA is
more likely to be unemployed that a white person? Or can you tell me the
average salary of a black person in the USA comapred to a white person?
Would these figures entitle me to boycott all USA produce?
Matthew Huntbach
an49...@anon.penet.fi
Jerry Desmond wrote on 13.03.96
> I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US
>citizen to register concern over private sector anti-Catholic
>discrimination in NI, where a Catholic is two and one-half times more
>likely to be unemployed than a Protestant.
>
> I am not persuaded by the fact that the segregated areas around the
>Bushmill's facility are largely Protestant. I suspect that Catholics
>have autos or other transportation to get them to Bushmill's, if jobs
>were made available.
>
> BTW, my boycott is not a personal hardship, since I too prefer
>Paddy, which I bought for our small St. Patrick's Day dinner today.
>Our guests will have to do without Bushmill, however.
>
>
> Slainte, Jerry
>
I had a look at the statistics on RC unemployment.
There is a high correlation between being unemployed and the RC faith.
There is also a high correlation between fertility and unemployment.
It is difficult to determine which factor has the greatest influence
on unemployment.
I detest imprecise descriptions like "Catholic Areas" but will, in
order to advance a thesis make some assumptions and put forward two
scenes:
Scene 1.
"Catholic Areas" to the west and bordering with the ROI have full
employment. "Protestant Areas " to the east discriminate against RC's
and unemployment there is almost exclusively RC. The overall rate is
2.5:1 RC:P.
Scene 2.
"Catholic Areas" to the west and bordering with the ROI have
population growths substantially higher than sustainable economic
growth, and high rates of unemployment for both RC and P populations.
"Protestant Areas" to the east have static or low growths of
population and occasionally the rate of RC unemployment is below that
for P's in the same area. These areas have full employment. The
overall rate is 2.5:1 RC:P.
********************************
Comparing the two Scenes with reality, Scene 2 comes closest, with
perhaps two areas which have statistically significant variations, for
example:
In Scene 2 Belfast has significantly higher rates of unemployment when
compared with population growth. Ballymena is the reverse.
Based on the above, let's live dangerously and suggest that the
difference in RC:P unemployment rates is largely due to population
growth. Let's say 80%:20% growth:discrimination. Two things to watch
out for are
a) how to define discrimination. If, for example, court decisions are
the definition, then discrimination is much less than 20%.
b) Economic effects. A P company which discriminates against RC's may
cause RC unemployment in the short term. In the long term, the company
may be unable to compete in the market because of this policy and
close, increasing P unemployment. Discrimination is therefore likely
to increase both RC and P unemployment.
It would be easier to address discrimination if employmees were defined
in terms of religious denomination. Also the unemployed are not asked
for this information.
A personal view is that dividing, by statute, the population into
Roman Catholic and Others, tends to endorse discrimination.
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Robin Popplestone
> Protestant booze vs. Catholic booze? Let me guess: the bottles have different
> feet?
Ah, but which foot is which? Perhaps we have a case of Irish tact, in which
nobody was laying explicit claim to the right one, with the implication that
the other persuasion made use of the wrong one.
Robin Popplestone.
David Stewart (Belgium)
All of the major Irish whiskey brands - Paddy, Jameson, Tullamore,
Bushmills etc - are all owned by French firm Pernod Ricard
While your aims are certainly laudable - Catholic unemployment is higher
than the N.I. average - Bushmills is in a predominantly protestant area.
The catholic/protestant ratio in the workforce does, to a large extent,
reflect the makeup of the community.
Slán go fóill.
David
Jerry Desmond
D.Ait...@kainos.com says...
>
>On 21 Mar 1996 14:13:35 -0500, ash...@aol.com (Ashlad) wrote:
>
>>While I will certainly observe the boycott
>
>everyone on the group, and a respected politician such as John Hume
>has said there is absolutely no justification for a boycott. Don't let
>the facts spoil your little bit of fun, and never worry about putting
>the Roman Catholics who _do_ work in Bushmills out of work.
You miss the point. A consummer boycott need not target a business
that is in violation of law and/or deserving of punishment. The boycott
is successful if it encourages the target business to keep its customers
happy by doing a little bit *more* than is required by law.
In an earlier post I mentioned that the Reverend Jesse Jackson noted
that African-Americans constituted a substantial portion of the customer
base for Nike athletic shoes, but that Nike had not been hiring as many
African-Americans as it could have. Nike had numerous good and entirely
legal reasons and excuses why its workforce was not up to the Reverend's
goals -- I suspect (but don't know for sure) that one such reason was a
dearth of qualified workers in the area of its plants -- but that did
not dissuade Reverend Jackson. He demanded that Nike keep its
African-American customers happy by hiring more African-Americans, and
called for an African-American boycott of Nike athletic shoes until Nike
did so. Nike capitulated within a week, notwithstanding that its hiring
practices seemed in compliance with law.
By the same token, the Bushmill boycott hopes to encourage Bushmill
to hire more Catholics than a strict interpretation of the law would
require, ie, to bend over backwards to keep its customers happy by hiring
a few Catholics.
The Bushmill boycott had an impact this year -- the Bushmill
price on my supermarket shelf was lower than in past years -- and will have
greater and greater impact as word gets out to more and more American
Catholics. I predict that by the year 2000, Bushmill will have a workforce
that is 50% Catholic.
Incidentally, here in the US, the Bushmill label is highly
misleading: It says "Product of Ireland" on a label with lots of green (not
"Product of NI" on an orange label), leading most Irish-Americans to believe
it is from the RoI and produced by a workforce with Catholics in it. Yes,
the label mentions Country Antrim, but most Irish-Americans are not familiar
with the location of counties in Ireland.
Slainte, Jerry
Jerry Desmond
>
>j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
>
>> Broad based boycotts of *all companies & products* occassionally
>>have achieved their objective (the boycott of South Africa comes to mind)
>>but more often they have failed (eg, the gay community' boycott of
>>Colorado
>>for having passed an initiative preempting local gay rights laws)...
>
>I wonder what makes you say that the Colorado boycott failed?
>The boycott cost Colorado an estimated $120 million in lost
>business, and the amendment has never been allowed by the
>courts to go into effect. It will more than likely be declared
>unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court later this year.
>
I had been led to believe that year-to-year comparisons of revenues
(or GDP, or whatever they call it for states) showed no discernable fall-off
in business activity. If I was wrong, I apologize.
I concur with your prediction that the US Supreme Court will
invalidate the Colorado initiative. However, I would hope that the courts
have enough integrity to make their decisions on the merits of
constitutional law, not to end a boycott.
Slainte, Jerry
Gavan Moran
>On 21 Mar 1996 14:13:35 -0500, ash...@aol.com (Ashlad) wrote:
>>While I will certainly observe the boycott
>Yes, that's a good idea. Observe the boycott, even though virtually
>everyone on the group, and a respected politician such as John Hume
>has said there is absolutely no justification for a boycott. Don't let
>the facts spoil your little bit of fun, and never worry about putting
>the Roman Catholics who _do_ work in Bushmills out of work.
All 3 of them?
Gavan Moran
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen to
>: register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in NI,
>: where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be unemployed than
>: a Protestant.
>Could you please inform me how many more times a black person in the USA is
>more likely to be unemployed that a white person? Or can you tell me the
>average salary of a black person in the USA comapred to a white person?
>Would these figures entitle me to boycott all USA produce?
Whilst youre at it Matthew, kindly inform us of the likelihood of
unemployment amongst afro-caribbeans in GB vs that for white caucasians?
Gavan
Jerry Desmond
says...
>
>All of the major Irish whiskey brands - Paddy, Jameson, Tullamore,
>Bushmills etc - are all owned by French firm Pernod Ricard
If I'm not mistaken, there is an ersatz Irish whiskey made in North
Carolina (USA) with the label "Tillamore Dew".
A well known San Francisco watering hole called the
Buena Vista, which seems to be world famous for its "Irish coffee"
(and which caters both to tourists and to locals), used to use this North
Carolina swill in its "Irish coffee". I don't know if it still does. Guess
it doesn't matter much when you pollute good booze with coffee, sugar and
whipped cream.
Slainte, Jerry
Steve Glover
>All of the major Irish whiskey brands - Paddy, Jameson, Tullamore,
>Bushmills etc - are all owned by French firm Pernod Ricard
Oh dear... it's out now.
Steve, who still has most of a bottle of Ledaig from Worldcon
PS Dave, Happy Easter. I'll be thinking of your box of chocolates come Sunday
Morning...
--
steve....@ukonline.co.uk or kur...@tardis.ed.ac.uk
No longer steve_...@hicom.lut.ac.uk
and soon not even cs...@cds1.dl.ac.uk or ss...@festival.ed.ac.uk
Jerry Desmond
>
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>
>: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
>: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US citizen
>: to register concern over private sector anti-Catholic discrimination in
>: NI, where a Catholic is two and one-half times more likely to be
>: unemployed than a Protestant.
>
>Could you please inform me how many more times a black person in the USA is
>more likely to be unemployed that a white person?
I don't have the exact figures, but African-American unemployment is
much higher, particularly among males and even more particularly among
teen-agers. A possible exception might be African-American female college
graduates, who do quite well compared to their white counterparts.
>Or can you tell me the
>average salary of a black person in the USA comapred to a white person?
I dont't have the exact figures, but the average wage or salary of
African-Americans is much lower than the average wage or salary of whites.
>Would these figures entitle me to boycott all USA produce?
>
>Matthew Huntbach
If you feel strongly about it, go for it, by all means. But as I
earlier suggested to Mark Devlin, I recommend that you target a single
product or a single company, which is far more likely to be effective than
an "all USA produce" boycott.
Slainte, Jerry
Matthew Huntbach
: In article <1996Mar29....@queens-belfast.ac.uk> gmo...@nyx.net (Gavan Moran) writes:
: >m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) wrote:
: >>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
: >>: I (for one) am observing the Bushmill's boycott. It seems like a
: >>: good, non-violent way -- better than bombs, certainly -- for a US
: >>: citizen to register concern over private sector anti-Catholic
: >>: discrimination in NI, where a Catholic is two and one-half times more
: >>: likely to be unemployed than a Protestant.
: >>Could you please inform me how many more times a black person in the USA is
: >>more likely to be unemployed that a white person? Or can you tell me the
: >>average salary of a black person in the USA comapred to a white person?
: >>Would these figures entitle me to boycott all USA produce?
: > Whilst youre at it Matthew, kindly inform us of the likelihood of
: >unemployment amongst afro-caribbeans in GB vs that for white caucasians?
: Are you trying to induce Matthew to boycott himself??
Good Lord, I know Americans suffer seriously from irony deficiency, but Gavan
as well? No, I am not *seriously* suggesting boycotting the USA over the fact
that blacks there are economically much more deprived than whites, I am just
using the comparison to point out that it is simplistic to look at economic
differences and explain them all by discrimination. It happens to be the case
that children of the poor and unemployed are themselves likely to be poor and
unemployed, and this will go on for generations, even if there isn't any
overt discrimination. Even if you introduce fairly strong anti-discrimination
measures, you cannot expect inequalities inherited from history to
disappear overnight, particularly if you have governments which aren't too
concerned with economic equality, as you have in both the UK at present and
in the USA.
So when I am pointing out that we in the UK could use the same argument
which some Americans use to boycott Bushmills whiskey (or worse still, to
finance terrorism against us), what I am really trying to do is to draw
comparisons which show how stupid this boycotting (or terrorist-financing) is.
I really am surprised to find that I actually have to point this out slowly
and at length.
So now, in big capital letters, I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS AN ARGUMENT TO
BOYCOTT AMERICAN COMPANIES BECAUSE OF BLACK-WHITE DIFFERENCES IN THE USA, NOR
DO I BELIEVE THERE IS AN ARGUMENT TO SUPPORT TERRORISM THERE FOR THE SAME
REASONS, and neither do I feel there is an argument for Amercians to do the
same to us.
Matthew Huntbach
Johan Anglemark
(Steve Glover) wrote:
>dste...@hebel.net (David Stewart (Belgium)) wrote:
>
>>All of the major Irish whiskey brands - Paddy, Jameson, Tullamore,
>>Bushmills etc - are all owned by French firm Pernod Ricard
>
>Oh dear... it's out now.
>
>Steve, who still has most of a bottle of Ledaig from Worldcon
Worldcon? Aren't ye mixing up yer newsgroups now? ;-)
Oh, I see, another fannish attempt to take over the net...
-Johan
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Anglemark (Sweden) | When they broke open molecules, they
angle...@euro.apple.com | found they were only stuffed with
tel: 08-703 31 21 (arb) | atoms. But when they broke open atoms,
018-12 45 44 (hem) | they found them stuffed with explosions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
AD BRUCE
> >Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
> unemployment amongst afro-caribbeans in GB vs that for white caucasians?
> Gavan
> --
> email: G.M...@ee.qub.ac.uk | "There can be only one"
> or gmo...@nyx.cs.du.edu | - the Highlander
I'm sorry, but if observe the Bushmills boycott, then on principle
I'll not do any shopping in Curleys!!!
Mark Devlin
j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
> You miss the point. A consummer boycott need not target a business
>that is in violation of law and/or deserving of punishment. The boycott
>is successful if it encourages the target business to keep its customers
>happy by doing a little bit *more* than is required by law.
But the Bushmills distillery _is_ doing this. There are precious few jobs to
be had there - indeed, their workforce is likely to shrink - but they've gone
out of their way to hire catholics (because they have to go out of their way
to _find_ catholics) at their visitors' centre, the one area where new jobs
are being created.
But that's not good enough for you, apparently. Bushmills had better start
"featherbedding" a few RCs, or else Jerry Desmond (who prefers Paddy's
anyway) will no longer give them his custom.
> By the same token, the Bushmill boycott hopes to encourage Bushmill
>to hire more Catholics than a strict interpretation of the law would
>require, ie, to bend over backwards to keep its customers happy by hiring
>a few Catholics.
Bushmills does bend over backwards, see above. They _could_ do more, I
suppose. They could fire a few of the protestants in their employ, pay a few
catholics to relocate and take their places, and customers like Jerry would
be kept happy. Of course, a few protestants will have had their jobs taken
away to keep Jerry happy, but that's a small price, and anyway, he really
prefers Paddy's.
> The Bushmill boycott had an impact this year -- the Bushmill
>price on my supermarket shelf was lower than in past years -- and will have
>greater and greater impact as word gets out to more and more American
>Catholics. I predict that by the year 2000, Bushmill will have a workforce
>that is 50% Catholic.
Or else the Bushmills distillery will have been closed, depriving _all_ the
workers (including the catholics) of their jobs.
Actually, I don't see this boycott having much long-term economic effect
either way. When next month's trendy cause comes along, the Bushmills
boycott will go the way of the California raisin boycott (remember that?); in
the meantime, the only ones to have been hurt will be the booze retailers
whose money had already gone to Bushmills and who had to lower their shelf
prices for a bit because Jerry took home a bottle of Paddy's (which he
prefers anyway) for his St Patrick's Day bacchanale.
Nonetheless, I like your prediction that this boycott will ultimately wield
enormous power "as word gets out to more and more American Catholics."
Doubtful, as the American RC hierarchy can't even muster sufficient unity
among the troops to railroad through a prohibition of abortion, which is
presumably of rather more importance to Rome than altering the demographics
of the Bushmills workforce. But in any event, I think that's an excellent
notion for a supporter of a united Irish Republic to convey to the Northern
Irish unionists he hopes to persuade to join the Republic freely: "Do Our
Bidding, Or Else World-Wide Roman Catholicism Will Destroy Your Economy."
But your saeva indignatio is misdirected. If I am not mistaken, the
Bushmills distillery is owned by a French consortium. The frogs are the ones
oppressing all those RC residents of Bushmills who'd otherwise be working
away making whiskey for sots the world over. Better boycott the products of
French companies, then (oops, forgot, that was _last_ month's cause). That
boycott would be more of a personal hardship for you, of course, as the same
French firm owns Paddy's.
> Incidentally, here in the US, the Bushmill label is highly
>misleading: It says "Product of Ireland" on a label with lots of green (not
>"Product of NI" on an orange label), leading most Irish-Americans to believe
>it is from the RoI and produced by a workforce with Catholics in it. Yes,
>the label mentions Country Antrim, but most Irish-Americans are not familiar
>with the location of counties in Ireland.
Odd. I recently saw a bottle of Bushmills (the "Reserve", I think) in the
duty-free in Boston (of all places!), and the label said "Product of N.
Ireland". Later, in the duty-free in Frankfurt, I saw a bottle whose label
read "Product of Ireland." That's the one I bought, of course, as that was
the one produced in a 32-county RoI and by a workforce (at least) 50%
catholic.
Actually, Bushmills whiskey _is_ produced in Ireland. If Irish-Americans
think Ireland consists solely of the Republic, and if they don't know which
country Co. Antrim lies in, perhaps they should refrain from telling NI
businesses how best to solve the country's economic and social problems. And
if they think one should choose one's tipple according to the flag flying
over the distillery and the religious beliefs of the workers distilling the
stuff, perhaps they should refrain from saying anything at all.
--
Mark Devlin <mde...@bu.edu> Boston, USA
=====================================================================
It's a girl! Anne Devlin, born 20 February 1996 at 12:32 GMT
Seven pounds, six ounces (3350g), twenty and a half inches (52cm)
*********************************************************************
"...A stranger here
Strange things doth meet, strange glories see;
Strange treasures lodged in this fair world appear,
Strange all and new to me;
But that they mine should be, who nothing was,
That strangest is of all, yet brought to pass."
T. Traherne, "The Salutation" (ca. 1665)
=====================================================================
AD BRUCE
> In article <dstewart-280...@ppp1.hebel.net>, dste...@hebel.net
> (David Stewart (Belgium)) wrote:
> > In article <4is9ov$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ash...@aol.com (Ashlad) wrote:
> >
> > > While I will certainly observe the boycott (and thank the Irish people for
> > > inventing that peaceful form of protest) I remember reading somewhere that
> > > all the Irish whiskey companies are controlled by large firms in the U.K..
> > > Is this true, and if so, are the firms connected?
> >
> > All of the major Irish whiskey brands - Paddy, Jameson, Tullamore,
> > Bushmills etc - are all owned by French firm Pernod Ricard
> Hey, did anybody see Coleraine cattle market (not far from Bushmills) on
> the BBC news recently? It would appear that since about Monday, none of
> the farmers round there are actually British. There was even one bloke
> quoted on the broadcast as saying that since their cattle was raised on
> the island of Ireland, and were thus Irish rather than British, they feel
> it is unfair and discriminatory for the British government and the EC to
> stop them from exporting their beef...
> --
> Nothing in this post is neccessarily the opinion of John Brown Publishing or of Fortean Times.
> On a bad day, it might not even be mine.
Apparently the guy selling the Es outside Kellys insists they came
from the Republic and therefore they are completely safe. It's
a complete turnaround in the North West!
Robin Popplestone
> Anyway, I don't imagine there are many Catholics working in the
> distilleries on the island of Islay where my choice of spirits originates.
The religious make-up of the Scottish Islands is an interesting one. I have never
visited Islay, but some 40 miles due north are the islands of Barra and Eriskay,
which are definitely R.C.. Harris, Lewis and Skye are mostly fundamentalist
Protestant - "Wee Free". Most are Gaelic-speaking. One might suppose that Islay,
being near Campbell country, was Protestant.
Robin Popplestone.
Matthew Huntbach
: Incidentally, here in the US, the Bushmill label is highly
: misleading: It says "Product of Ireland" on a label with lots of green (not
: "Product of NI" on an orange label), leading most Irish-Americans to believe
: it is from the RoI and produced by a workforce with Catholics in it. Yes,
: the label mentions Country Antrim, but most Irish-Americans are not familiar
: with the location of counties in Ireland.
Why should this be a problem, unless the Republic has renounced Articles 2
and 3 of its constitution recently?
Matthew Huntbach
Gareth G Davis
: : Incidentally, here in the US, the Bushmill label is highly
: : misleading: It says "Product of Ireland" on a label with lots of green (not
: : "Product of NI" on an orange label), leading most Irish-Americans to believe
: : it is from the RoI and produced by a workforce with Catholics in it. Yes,
: : the label mentions Country Antrim, but most Irish-Americans are not familiar
: : with the location of counties in Ireland.
You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
produced by Irish protestants. Very non-sectarian I'm sure. Why don't you
substitute "Black" and "White" in your passage above and see how it sounds.
Is the colour Green and the term "Ireland" associated with catholicism
and hence its use to advertise things produced mostly by protestants
misleading advertising? Could I make similiar assumptions regarding red white
and blue, the term "United States" and protestantism? Can we sue Van
Morrison, Adam Clayton and the Edge for misleading the public by calling
themselves "Irish"?
(BTW Bushmills does have Catholics in its workforce. I don't know how you
can be unaware of this fact following your reading of this thread over
the last few weeks. It is mostly protestant becasuse the Bushmills area
is almost wholly protestant.)
(PS For your information I just discovered that "Paddy" based in the
midlands of Ireland, is guilty of gross religious discrimination. You see
their workforce is over 97% Catholic. The island of Ireland is just over
75% Catholic so protestants are under-represented by a factor of 8 to 1.
Now Paddy came up with some Hogwash to the effect that the part of the
world where they are sited is 97% RC but I don't believe a word of it.
Now if jobs were truly made available to protestants there I'm sure many
woiuld move from Antrim and Tyrone to take them up.............)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Some day these people are gonna get good government, and they ain't
gonna like it one bit".
Huey Long
(Former Louisiana Governor and Senator)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Livesey
>
> Incidentally, here in the US, the Bushmill label is highly
> misleading: It says "Product of Ireland" on a label with lots of green (not
> "Product of NI" on an orange label), leading most Irish-Americans to believe
> it is from the RoI and produced by a workforce with Catholics in it. Yes,
> the label mentions Country Antrim, but most Irish-Americans are not familiar
> with the location of counties in Ireland.
Why not?
jon.
Pat Devaney
>
> You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
> produced by Irish protestants.
In some cases, this would be unfortunately true.
Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
And most of their ancestors were forced to go to America due to
the British landlords who stole their ancestors' lands, thereby creating
economic hardships for the average Irishman/woman.
So, the generations of Irish-Americans (even to this day) have this
hatred instilled into them of anything that has to do with making money
for the "other side".
(these are my own opinions).
Jerry Desmond
National identity/heritage is more important than religion, but the
anti-Catholic odor surrounding Bushmill and its environs -- an area that
consistently elects that virulently anti-Catholic bigot, Rev. Ian Paisley --
also plays a part.
The vast majority of my Irish-American-Catholic friends do not drink
Irish whiskey because it is their favorite booze. Without exception, they
prefer other spirits (I prefer Jack Daniels Tennessee Sour Mash Whiskey).
But on and around Saint Patrick's Day, we all buy and drink Irish
whiskey. We do it for one ethnically-oriented purpose: To celebrate our
Irish-Catholic heritage.
Unfortunately, for some nearly inexplicable reason -- good
advertising by Bushmill, I suppose -- my Irish-American-Catholic friends
have assumed (without giving it any thought) that Bushmill is an appropriate
Irish whiskey with which to celebrate this Irish-Catholic heritage.
When I tell them that Bushmill is better characterized as a
"British" product (because it is produced in an area which unfortunately is
still under the sovereignty of Britain), that the distillery and its
workforce are located in one of the most anti-Catholic areas of NI, Ian
Paisley's district, and that the all-Protestant management of Bushmill
employs only a token Catholic or two, my Irish-American-Catholic friends
promptly come to the same conclusion that I have, namely, that Bushmill is
the worst possible booze with which to celebrate our our Irish-Catholic
heritage.
It is precisely to divert attention from this truth IMHO that the
Bushmill label states "Product of Ireland" (rather than "Product of NI") and
why the label uses the color green (rather than orange). BTW, I have ben
advised by e-mail that Bushmill *does* produce a "Black Bush"(sp) whiskey
with an orange label, but here in the US I have never seen it on store
shelves.
Can anyone imagine Michael Collins or Eammon de Valera
voluntarily choosing Bushmill over Paddy or Jamieson(sp)?
Slainte, Jerry
Sean P
>
<snip>
> It is precisely to divert attention from this truth IMHO that the
> Bushmill label states "Product of Ireland" (rather than "Product of NI") and
> why the label uses the color green (rather than orange). BTW, I have ben
> advised by e-mail that Bushmill *does* produce a "Black Bush"(sp) whiskey
> with an orange label, but here in the US I have never seen it on store
> shelves.
I, and some of my other American-Irish-descent (to keep from starting
another damn Irish/american debate) drinking partners, don't believe
whiskey has a religion. Although God's name may be evoked during and
after too much consumption. If I go into a bar and they have Guinness on
tap, I'll drink that. If they don't I'll look for a good single malt. If
thats not available I'll look for Bushmills single malt (green label), or
Black Bush (black Label) or Jamesons 1782 (or 1872 or something). If they
have none of those I prefer Regular Jamesons or Bushmills. If they have
none of those I'll look for a good Baptist whiskey. If I get down to a
Luthern beer I leave and find another bar. ;)
If you pour Jamesons and Bushmills into a glass which one floats to the top?
Sean P
Ann Stea
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>>
>> Incidentally, here in the US, the Bushmill label is highly
>> misleading: It says "Product of Ireland" on a label with lots of green (not
>> "Product of NI" on an orange label), leading most Irish-Americans to believe
>> it is from the RoI and produced by a workforce with Catholics in it. Yes,
>> the label mentions Country Antrim, but most Irish-Americans are not familiar
>> with the location of counties in Ireland.
>Why not?
>jon.
Umm...Cdn. border, skis, July? :-)
Ann
Eoin Keith
>Gareth G Davis wrote:
>>
>> You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
>> produced by Irish protestants.
>In some cases, this would be unfortunately true.
>Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
>And most of their ancestors were forced to go to America due to
>the British landlords who stole their ancestors' lands, thereby creating
>economic hardships for the average Irishman/woman.
And promptly stole the land of the native Americans (and massacred
large numbers of them), thereby creating economic hardship for the
average (True) American.
>So, the generations of Irish-Americans (even to this day) have this
>hatred instilled into them of anything that has to do with making money
>for the "other side".
How sad. Most Irish wouldn't bother to check "which side" a product
is produced by. The population of the Republic is to a large extent
leaving these petty bigotries behind.
Eoin
Gareth G Davis
: In article <4kliql$v...@portal.gmu.edu>, gda...@mason2.gmu.edu says...
: >You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
: >produced by Irish protestants. Very non-sectarian I'm sure.
: National identity/heritage is more important than religion,
Or at least should be?
: but the
: anti-Catholic odor surrounding Bushmill and its environs -- an area that
: consistently elects that virulently anti-Catholic bigot, Rev. Ian Paisley --
: also plays a part.
Ah at last. We've moved from the line that "Bushmills Distillery is
anti-Catholic" (which is untrue, according to John Hume) to "the whole
area is anti-Catholic" as grounds for boycotting Bushmills Whiskey. the
basis for your claim of an "anti-catholic odor" around Bushmills is the
fact that they fall within Ian Paisley's constituency. Now of course I
have never heard of "bigot" Ian Paisley calling for a boycott of goods on
the basis of the religion of the workers/owners of the firm.
Nevertheless We'll examine your argument. Bushmills is a small town on
the edge of Ian Paisley's constituency which stretches accross all of
NE NI. On the basis of your logic we should also boycott such areas
as (90% Catholic) Glenarm or Rathlin on the basis of also being in
this constituency. Also we could extend your logic to the United
States. Should anti-racists boycott all products from the states of
North Carolina or South Carolina on the basis that Jesse Helms and
Strom Thurmond are the Senators for these states?
As regards any other evidence for the "anti-Catholic odor" surrounding
Bushmills town I would say that you can't find any. Catholics and
Protestants in this area tend to get on better here than anywhere else
in NI (especially comapred to Mid-Ulster, Armagh and Belfast). In the
1700s the area was a centre of (ecumeneical) nationalism in the shape of
the United Irishmen. I would guess that you haven't been there, aren't
familiar with the area (except knowing that its overwhelmingly
protestant) but choose to slander the town's reputation anyway.
: But on and around Saint Patrick's Day, we all buy and drink Irish
: whiskey. We do it for one ethnically-oriented purpose: To celebrate our
: Irish-Catholic heritage.
Ah. "Irish-Catholic heritage". I thought St Patrick was around before
(Roman) Catholics and Protestants existed. But anyway its nice to know
that where you are St. Patrick's day is a sectarian holiday , sort of a
counterpart to the 12th of July.
: Unfortunately, for some nearly inexplicable reason -- good
: advertising by Bushmill, I suppose -- my Irish-American-Catholic friends
: have assumed (without giving it any thought) that Bushmill is an appropriate
: Irish whiskey with which to celebrate this Irish-Catholic heritage.
Oh No. I mean a "protestant drink". It would never do. And these people
call Ian Paisley a bigot?
: When I tell them that Bushmill is better characterized as a
: "British" product (because it is produced in an area which unfortunately is
: still under the sovereignty of Britain),
So then you accept the Unionist line that NI is "British" and not "Irish"?
If you are an nationalist surely you do not object if Ian Paisley or
Bushmills or anyone in the 6 counties called themselves "Irish", used
Green labels or wore shamrocks.
: that the distillery and its
: workforce are located in one of the most anti-Catholic areas of NI, Ian
: Paisley's district,
False.(see above). For "anti-Catholic" the above should read "mostly
protestant". It mightn't occur to you but there is a difference.
: and that the all-Protestant management of Bushmill
: employs only a token Catholic or two,
False. John Hume, leader of NI's Catholics (and no shrinking violet on
these matters) exonerates Bushmills of any discrimination against
Catholics. In previous discussions you proved to be ignorant of basic
facts such as the fact that the area where the distillery is located is
overwhelmingly protestant.
: my Irish-American-Catholic friends
: promptly come to the same conclusion that I have, namely, that Bushmill is
: the worst possible booze with which to celebrate our our Irish-Catholic
: heritage.
Fair Enough. You can choose not to consume a drink made by mostly
protestant workers in a protestant part of Ireland to celebrate your
Irish-Catholic heritage on the basis of their religion. However don't try
and dress it up as anything other than sectarianism or religious bigotry.
You claimed above that national identity is more important than religion.
Your statement above seems to contradict this.
: It is precisely to divert attention from this truth IMHO that the
: Bushmill label states "Product of Ireland" (rather than "Product of NI") and
: why the label uses the color green (rather than orange).
Again what is your problem with this? As a self-procalimed Irish
nationalist do you not think anyone or anything born or located on t
he island of Ireland can call itself "Irish" or use the colour green?
In my opinion these people probably have a much better claim to being
"Irish" than you or your other American born friends.
: BTW, I have ben
: advised by e-mail that Bushmill *does* produce a "Black Bush"(sp) whiskey
: with an orange label, but here in the US I have never seen it on store
: shelves.
An Orange label? An Orange label? Are you aware that:
a) Its probably just a coincidence. Orange is a favourite colour of many
advertisers as it stands out to the eye. Its use probably has no political
significance.
b) You're probably not aware of this but Orange is one of the colours in
the Irish Tricolour (along with Green and White). So I can't see how
using it removes anyone's claim to being Irish.
: Can anyone imagine Michael Collins
Yes I could.
: or Eammon de Valera
No probably not. De Valera was also a bit of a religious bigot so I guess
he may have allowed religion to influence his choice of purchases.
: voluntarily choosing Bushmill over Paddy or Jamieson(sp)?
You're probably not aware of the Jameson Family's origin. They were an
aristocratic, protestant and staunchly unionist Dublin family. Their most
famous member (an ex-British Army Colonel and War Hero) served in the
first few Dails as a unionsist TD from South Dublin.
Its also interesting that in your list of "patriots" you left out a whole
host of famous protestants who are usally cited in any list of
nationalist heros; Wolfe Tone, Parnell, Emmett and of course that famous
Antrim presbyterian and United Irishman, Henry Joy Mc Cracken. Is this
just a coincidence?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Some day these people are gonna get good government, and they ain't
gonna like it one bit".
Huey Long
(Former Louisiana Govenor and Senator)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Desmond
>>> produced by Irish protestants.
>
>
>>hatred instilled into them of anything that has to do with making money
>>for the "other side".
>
>How sad. Most Irish wouldn't bother to check "which side" a product
>is produced by. The population of the Republic is to a large extent
>leaving these petty bigotries behind.
>
>Eoin
But as I have previously posted, if Irish-American-Catholics are
buying and drinking Irish whiskey around St. Patrick's day not because it is
their favorite booze, but in order to celebrate their Irish-Catholic
heritage, the Bushmill is the *absolutely worst* Irish whiskey for the
celebration of Irish-Catholic heritage.
Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
Slainte, Jerry
KEVXU
> The vast majority of my Irish-American-Catholic friends do not drink
> Irish whiskey because it is their favorite booze. Without exception, they
> prefer other spirits (I prefer Jack Daniels Tennessee Sour Mash Whiskey).
>
> But on and around Saint Patrick's Day, we all buy and drink Irish
> whiskey. We do it for one ethnically-oriented purpose: To celebrate our
> Irish-Catholic heritage.
Suckin' up the ol' booze is a real testament to faith in Holy Mother Church for sure.
Hail Mary, and give me another shot, Micky.
As someone whose family is Irish Presbyterian and Irish Catholic I'd like to volunteer
that the celebration of Irish-Catholic/Protestant heritage is a large part of the
nonsense which keeps the evil on both sides in full flower.
> Unfortunately, for some nearly inexplicable reason -- good
> advertising by Bushmill, I suppose -- my Irish-American-Catholic friends
> have assumed (without giving it any thought) that Bushmill is an appropriate
> Irish whiskey with which to celebrate this Irish-Catholic heritage.
How about communion wine and green hosts for hors d'oevres?
Water might be a far more appropriate beverage, judging from the condition of many
Irish-Catholics while celebrating their heritage.
>
> Can anyone imagine Michael Collins or Eammon de Valera
> voluntarily choosing Bushmill over Paddy or Jamieson(sp)?
They were too busy trying to murder each other to worry about checking the booze labels.
Jack Carroll
Andy D
> Can anyone imagine Michael Collins or Eammon de Valera
>voluntarily choosing Bushmill over Paddy or Jamieson(sp)?
I know for a fact that Mr Collins drinks cheap strong lager. He has
problems with it pouring out of the bulletholes though.
Mark Devlin
Pat Devaney <Devaney...@bah.com> wrote:
>Gareth G Davis wrote:
>>
>> You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
>> produced by Irish protestants.
>
>In some cases, this would be unfortunately true.
>
>Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
Perhaps in the Irish America of your dreamings. In the real-life US of A,
however, the majority of citizens of Irish descent are protestants. Then
again, judging by the standards of such helpful folk as the AOH (and by your
own standards, see below), perhaps these don't qualify as "Irish".
>And most of their ancestors were forced to go to America due to
>the British landlords who stole their ancestors' lands, thereby creating
>economic hardships for the average Irishman/woman.
Most of the ancestors of most Americans fled economic hardship (or worse) in
their homelands. Most manage not to obsess about the events of x-hundred
years past. Americans of Norwegian descent - there are quite a few in the
upper Midwest - seem to have better things to do than wail over the
depredations of the Swedes, or Danes, or whomever.
>So, the generations of Irish-Americans (even to this day) have this
>hatred instilled into them of anything that has to do with making money
>for the "other side".
Well, perhaps the generations _you_ have met, and the ones I see driving
their battered old cars out of South Boston with "26 + 6 + 1"
bumper-stickers, the ones who give money to Noraid agents in the "Irish" pubs
and welcome SF sorts to the St Patrick's Day parades whence they have
vigilantly kept the truly evil at bay. Most of the Irish-Americans I have
encountered are far too busy doing things like studying, working and having
lives to give their minds over in servitude to a malignant nationalism
distorted through the lenses of time and distance.
Rather revealing, though, your remark about "Irish-Americans" (of the sort
you imagine makes up the bulk of this tribe) don't want to give any money to
"the other side". For the "other side" in the Bushmills context, of course,
are not English landlords but Irish protestants. So the enemy are not the
marauding English, but rather those who are not Roman Catholics. Good to
see that, in the generations of Irish-Americans you have encountered,
nothing mush has changed since the seventeenth century. [In reality, the
"other side" for whom money would be made is the same big French company that
makes money from most if not all whiskeys distilled throughout the island of
Ireland, but then this point would surely be too subtle for the sort of
Irish-American of whom you write to grasp].
Mark Devlin
j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
> But as I have previously posted, if Irish-American-Catholics are
>buying and drinking Irish whiskey around St. Patrick's day not because it is
>their favorite booze, but in order to celebrate their Irish-Catholic
>heritage, the Bushmill is the *absolutely worst* Irish whiskey for the
>celebration of Irish-Catholic heritage.
Out of curiosity, Jerry, what whiskey would be _most_ appropriate for
celebration of the Irish-Catholic heritage? To the best of my knowledge, all
of Ireland's traditional old commercially licenced stills were owned by
protestants, so imbibing just about any of the better-known labels would,
symbolically, be a celebration of the bad old days of the penal laws, when
the heretics (it seemed) owned pretty well the whole damn' place.
I do believe, though, that one major distillery might have been (or at least
become) owned by a catholic family - Powers, perhaps? Why don't you look
into the matter, and report back to the group before the next 17th, so that
Irish-American-Catholics whose favourite booze is other than Irish whiskey
may be in a position to select an ethno-religiously correct holiday tipple.
In any event, all these whiskey firms (including Bushmills, and do please
note the terminal "s") are now owned by a big French conglomerate. One
imagines that the bulk of the shareholders of this conglomerate, as
Frenchmen, are probably at least nominally Roman Catholic, so any whiskey
distilled on the island of Ireland ought to be kosher for
Irish-American-Catholics come St Patrick's day. The change in ownership from
Black Protestant West Brits to Garlic-Eating Frogs also means that the I-A-C
toper may safely swally the amber nectar without celebrating centuries of
oppression through ownership by alien heretics, recalling instead Ireland's
ancient ally, who never landed quite enough troops to help cast off the hated
chains of British tyranny.
Fad saol agat agus gob fliuch.
John Duffey
>In article <4l8v23$h...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>,
> j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
>
>>
>I do believe, though, that one major distillery might have been (or at least
>become) owned by a catholic family - Powers, perhaps?
Powers is a Norman name so that makes sense.
Why don't you look
>into the matter, and report back to the group before the next 17th, so that
>Irish-American-Catholics whose favourite booze is other than Irish whiskey
>may be in a position to select an ethno-religiously correct holiday tipple.
>
>In any event, all these whiskey firms (including Bushmills, and do please
>note the terminal "s") are now owned by a big French conglomerate.
Yes, Pernod/Ricard. However, There is one (as I'm told by it's owner) distillery in
Ireland wholly owned by Irish. That is The Tyrconnell, which produces a single
malt, and is fairly available here in the states. The owner is Willie McCarter of
Buncrana, Donegal who happens to be a Protestant and the Chairman of the IFI. He's
also managing director of Fruit of the Loom's operations on both sides of the
border. The Tyrconnell is distilled in County Louth. BTW, FOL has an admirable
record of compliance with fair employment standards, despite some noise from Gregory
Campbell.
The fair employment crap concerning Bushmills coming out of San Francisco is all
uninformed bull.
John Duffey
Derry.
John Duffey
>In article <4l7mmk$3...@news.Ieunet.ie>, eo...@xcomms.ie says...
>>
>>
>>>Gareth G Davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
>>>> produced by Irish protestants.
>>
>>>In some cases, this would be unfortunately true.
>>
>>>hatred instilled into them of anything that has to do with making money
>>>for the "other side".
>>
>>is produced by. The population of the Republic is to a large extent
>>leaving these petty bigotries behind.
>>
>>Eoin
>
>
>
>buying and drinking Irish whiskey around St. Patrick's day not because it is
>their favorite booze, but in order to celebrate their Irish-Catholic
>heritage, the Bushmill is the *absolutely worst* Irish whiskey for the
>celebration of Irish-Catholic heritage.
>
>Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
>sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
>nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
>answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
>
>
>
> Slainte, Jerry
>
I suspect only a whiskey distributor in that area could really answer that, unless
one believed the sales figures offered by any particular distiller.
However, I can say that I've enjoyed a few drams of Black Bush with John Hume at
Monico's Lounge on Customs House Street in Derry. If it's good enough for John,
it's good enough for me.
Darren Aitcheson
<Devaney...@bah.com> wrote:
>Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
Not necessarily...
>And most of their ancestors were forced to go to America due to
>the British landlords who stole their ancestors' lands, thereby creating
>economic hardships for the average Irishman/woman.
Oh yes, it was _totally the fault of the Brits...
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|Darren Aitcheson, Software Engineer D.Ait...@kainos.com|
|Kainos Software Ltd., Belfast, Ph. +44 1232 236868|
|Northern Ireland. Fax +44 1232 236935|
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|The above opinions are my own and do not represent those of|
|Kainos Software, who don't have any. (allegedly) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
AD BRUCE
> Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
> Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
> sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
> nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
> answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
> Slainte, Jerry
As someone who drinks in bars all over the place I can tell you it
makes fuck all difference. The people of (Northern) Ireland will
drink whatever they like, and bloody well enjoy it.
BTW if you visit Bushmills you'll find all the bars which sell
Guiness and sell other Irish whiskeys apart from Bushmills. Obviously
their bigottry doesn't extend as far as yours.
Eoin Keith
>In article <4l7mmk$3...@news.Ieunet.ie>, eo...@xcomms.ie says...
>>
>>How sad. Most Irish wouldn't bother to check "which side" a product
>>is produced by. The population of the Republic is to a large extent
>>leaving these petty bigotries behind.
>>
>>Eoin
> But as I have previously posted, if Irish-American-Catholics are
>buying and drinking Irish whiskey around St. Patrick's day not because it is
>their favorite booze, but in order to celebrate their Irish-Catholic
>heritage, the Bushmill is the *absolutely worst* Irish whiskey for the
>celebration of Irish-Catholic heritage.
Funny that John Hume doesn't seem to have a problem with it though,
but then again he is not a biggot. If Irish American Catholics want
to take a Christian (NOT catholic) saint's day of celebration and turn
it into a day to emphasise religous bigotry, well that's their
business. Thankfully Irish people themselves use the day to celebrate
their Irishness, and as such it is a more unifying than divisive day
here.
> Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
>Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
>sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
>nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
>answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
I doubt they care.
Eoin
AD BRUCE
> But as I have previously posted, if Irish-American-Catholics are
>buying and drinking Irish whiskey around St. Patrick's day not because it is
>their favorite booze, but in order to celebrate their Irish-Catholic
>heritage, the Bushmill is the *absolutely worst* Irish whiskey for the
>celebration of Irish-Catholic heritage.
Why pick St Patrick's day to celebrate Irish-Catholic heritage? St Patrick
wasn't a Catholic. He's the Patron Saint in Bushmills too!
The language you use is that of exclusion. You want to exclude Northern
Protestants from a major part of Irish culture. Well it's their culture
too, and because of people like you try to monopolise Irish culture
for Nationalist Roman Catholics, it's no wonder that some of them don't
want to know about it.
Pearse Ward
>
> > Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
> > Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
> > sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
> > nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
> > answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
>
>
> As someone who drinks in bars all over the place I can tell you it
> makes fuck all difference. The people of (Northern) Ireland will
> drink whatever they like, and bloody well enjoy it.
Better yet, if you go to the Republican bars in Belfast (not that anyone
here would be caught dead in any of them), they're stacked to the
rafters with Bushmills. No self-respecting Ulsterman would be caught
dead drinking that southern swill.
Pearse
AD BRUCE
> Pearse
Indeed, I hear that the Hatfield Bar is actually CONSTRUCTED from Black Bush.
Gareth G Davis
: : National identity/heritage is more important than religion, but the
: : anti-Catholic odor surrounding Bushmill and its environs -- an area that
: : consistently elects that virulently anti-Catholic bigot, Rev. Ian Paisley
: : also plays a part.
Opps Jerry, I forgot. I'm afraid that Ian Paisley is on your side in this
argument. He's stauchly opposed to alchoholic beverages of all shapes and
forms (regardless of the drink's religious persuausion). He refers to whiskey
as the "Devil's Buttermilk". So like you I'm sure he'd be delighted to
see people boycott Bushmill's whiskey.
But then again you probably didn't knwo that.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Some day these people are gonna get good government, and they ain't
gonna like it one bit".
Huey Long
(Former Louisiana Governor and Senator)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
John Duffey
>On Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:58:23 -0600, Pat Devaney
><Devaney...@bah.com> wrote:
>
>>Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
>
>Not necessarily...
>
>>And most of their ancestors were forced to go to America due to
>>the British landlords who stole their ancestors' lands, thereby creating
>>economic hardships for the average Irishman/woman.
>
>Oh yes, it was _totally the fault of the Brits...
>
>+-----------------------------------------------------------+
>|Darren Aitcheson, Software Engineer D.Ait...@kainos.com|
Well, Darren, it wasn't the Germans who ran things there. The Scots-Irish Ulstermen
who emigrated in the 18th century to the American colonies left because they had a
deep dislike of the way the English were running things. We all know the story of
the bulk of 19th century emigrants.
Aine.McManus
It is precisely to divert attention from this truth IMHO that the
Bushmill label states "Product of Ireland" (rather than "Product of NI") and
why the label uses the color green (rather than orange). BTW, I have ben
advised by e-mail that Bushmill *does* produce a "Black Bush"(sp) whiskey
with an orange label, but here in the US I have never seen it on store
shelves.
And I thought they used differnt coloured label to distinguish between
different products. Green for the single malt, orange for Black Bush,
and red for the usual one you find in Irish pubs. Or maybe they're
trying to pretend they're communists, to boost sales to Cuba?
Can anyone imagine Michael Collins or Eammon de Valera
voluntarily choosing Bushmill over Paddy or Jamieson(sp)?
Yes. It tastes better.
Aine
--
===============================================================================
Áine McManus, Aine.M...@maths.anu.edu.au
Centre for Mathematics and its Applications,
Australian National University, +61-6-249 3458 (W)
ACT 0200, Australia. +61-6-249 5549 (Fax)
http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~mcmanus/index.html
===============================================================================
Sweeney the Wanderer
In article <4lp8ht$rej@cdn_news.telecom.com.au> SBl...@logness.com.au (Seamus Black) writes:
>Path:
>news10.erols.com!news1.erols.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!m
>unnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!mail_gw.fwall.te
>lecom.com.au!cdn_news.telecom.com.au!usenet
>From: SBl...@logness.com.au (Seamus Black)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.irish
>Subject: Re: Bushmill and fair employement
>Date: 26 Apr 1996 01:23:09 GMT
>Organization: BlackFriers
>Lines: 33
>Message-ID: <4lp8ht$rej@cdn_news.telecom.com.au>
>References: <4irot1$8...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu> <4jf4ka$9...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>
><4kfsg7$h...@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> <4kn42n$1...@fido.asd.sgi.com>
><4l71al$f...@sam.inforamp.net>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.51.15.8
>X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
> In article <4l71al$f...@sam.inforamp.net>, as...@inforamp.net (Ann Stea)
>Wasn't it Bob Geldof who said American Irish are about as Irish as the
>American Blacks are African
>============================================
>Seamus Black
>"Free East Timor - with every barrel sold"
>============================================
Quite true, but that never stopped American Blacks from pressuring South
Africa in the matter of apartheid.
Sweeney
AD BRUCE
Scene: All Party Talks -
GA: We'd like Cross Border Structures please
JM: Mmmm
GA: We'd like the RUC disbanded if you don't mind
JM: I see
GA: We'd like OO parades kept off the lower Ormeau
JM: I understand
GA: And no St Patrick for Prods. Cheers.
Steve Glover
>Yes, Pernod/Ricard. However, There is one (as I'm told by it's owner) distillery in
>Ireland wholly owned by Irish. That is The Tyrconnell, which produces a single
>malt, and is fairly available here in the states.
Yes -- and it's also available in the UK as a supermarket "own brand" irish
malt.
Now, as an irishman who likes (loves?) good whisk(e)ys, I had to try this. I
expected something *smooth* like the Bushmills malt, but it's quite a harsh
taste, I found. Sufficiently reminiscent of "Lammerlaw" (a New Zealand single
malt) that I'd recommend the same course of action: stick it back in the
barrel for another decade or so...
Steve, wondering if anyone else had heard anything about the "recent" finding
of some very old barrels of Comber whiskey...
-- steve....@ukonline.co.uk or kur...@tardis.ed.ac.uk
No longer steve_...@hicom.lut.ac.uk and soon not even
cs...@cds1.dl.ac.uk or ss...@festival.ed.ac.uk
Robin Popplestone
> Patrick wasn't a Catholic. He's the Patron Saint in Bushmills too!
You are wrong there! St Patrick would most surely have described himself as
a Catholic, as opposed to the available alternatives, which, if I remember
my Church history correctly, would include Gnostics, Nestorians and
Pelagians (the latter was a wicked BRITISH heresy which denied original sin
and hence the need for infant baptism). The interesting question is whether
he was in fact RC. The ancient Irish church was notably given to going its
own way, in contrast to the English church which was rigorously RC. But
some have argued that Patrick did in fact represent an early pro-Roman
faction. This is discussed in an anthology of Irish Verse I have at home.
Certainly, from his name, he was a romanised Brit (not to be confused with
their bitter antagonists the English).
However, Catholicism in his time, at least in its documented definitions in
the various creeds, was perfectly compatible with mainstream Protestantism
today.
Robin Popplestone.
AD BRUCE
> of some very old barrels of Comber whiskey...
Comber Whiskey - now that WOULD be Protestant!
AD BRUCE
> Robin Popplestone.
He's still the Patron Saint in Bushmills, and as you seem to be agreeing, he
wasn't a Roman Catholic in the present day sense of the word.
Robin Popplestone
>Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
Possibly true, given of course the fact that even in 100 years one has
16 ancestors, one of whom might be RC. But, on some counts, most are
Protestant.
>And most of their ancestors were forced to go to America due to
>the British landlords who stole their ancestors' lands, thereby creating
>economic hardships for the average Irishman/woman.
The overall effect of the land-management policies developed in Britain
during the 18th century was to support a larger population in the British
Isles. This is true even if the Famine is taken into account. So possibly
Mr Devaney would not even exist if it had not been for aforesaid landlords.
Robin
Jerry Desmond
>
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>
>: National identity/heritage is more important than religion,
>: anti-Catholic odor surrounding Bushmill and its environs -- an area that
>: consistently elects that virulently anti-Catholic bigot, Rev. Ian Paisley
>:
>: But on and around Saint Patrick's Day, we all buy and drink Irish
>: whiskey. We do it for one ethnically-oriented purpose: To celebrate our
>: Irish-Catholic heritage.
>
>Ah. "Irish-Catholic heritage". I thought St Patrick was around before
>(Roman) Catholics and Protestants existed. But anyway its nice to know
>that where you are St. Patrick's day is a sectarian holiday , sort of a
>counterpart to the 12th of July.
You've got it wrong. St. Patrick's Day in the US is widely
celebrated by many ethnic and religious groups. Here in the San Francisco
area one of the highlights is an Irish-Italian-Israeli luncheon. But that
does not prevent Irish-Catholics from celebrating the Catholic component
of their heritage along with the Irish component. From a heritage
standpoint, for most of our ancestors, being Irish meant being persecuted by
British/Protestant colonists in part because of their Catholicism (and in
part because of their Irish/non-British national identity). To suggest that
our heritage has no "sectarian" components is false.
>
>: Unfortunately, for some nearly inexplicable reason -- good
>: advertising by Bushmill, I suppose -- my Irish-American-Catholic friends
>: have assumed (without giving it any thought) that Bushmill is an
>: appropriate Irish whiskey with which to celebrate this Irish-Catholic
>: heritage.
>
>Oh No. I mean a "protestant drink". It would never do. And these people
>call Ian Paisley a bigot?
And a British product as well. I consider Bushmill a product that
epitomizes NI's British connection. To an equal degree, I consider it a
product that epitomizes the anti-Catholic culture that has existed in NI
(and this particular area of NI) for centuries, an anti-Catholic culture
that led to incidents like Burntollet Bridge and currently finds expression
in the anti-Catholic pronouncements and conduct of Ian Paisley. I cannot
agree with your premise that protesting NI's historic anti-Catholic culture
and its British connection makes me a bigot.
>
>
>: When I tell them that Bushmill is better characterized as a
>: "British" product (because it is produced in an area which unfortunately
>: is still under the sovereignty of Britain),
>
>So then you accept the Unionist line that NI is "British" and not "Irish"?
>If you are an nationalist surely you do not object if Ian Paisley or
>Bushmills or anyone in the 6 counties called themselves "Irish", used
>Green labels or wore shamrocks.
Yes. It is a fact, even tho I don't like it (and hope the situation
changes), that Britain exercises sovereignty over NI. I would be delighted
if 100% of the people in the 6 counties severed the connection with Britain
and began to think of themselves as "Irish" not simply in the geographical
sense, but also in the sense of national identity. I *do* find it
hypocritical when someone identifies himself as "Irish" when trying to sell
booze to Irish-Americans, but "British" when it comes to national identity.
>
>: that the distillery and its workforce are located in one of the most
>: anti-Catholic areas of NI, Ian Paisley's district, and that the
>: all-Protestant management of Bushmill employs only a token Catholic or
>: two,
>
>False. John Hume, leader of NI's Catholics (and no shrinking violet on
>these matters) exonerates Bushmills of any discrimination against
>Catholics. In previous discussions you proved to be ignorant of basic
>facts such as the fact that the area where the distillery is located is
>overwhelmingly protestant.
Sorry to disabuse you of your preconceived notions, but I have been
aware of the protestant character of the area around Bushmill from the
outset. Indeed, if I had not previously known the fact (which I did), I
would have discovered it from the news reports on the Bushmill boycott. My
point is that there are some Catholics nearby, and lots of Catholics within
25 miles, and that Bushmill should go further than the law absolutely
requires -- bend over backwards -- to keep its customers happy by employing
some of them. I respect John Hume, but I don't agree with him either on
this Bushmill issue, or on the issue of rotating (between Catholics and
Protestants) the committee chairs on the Catholic-dominated Derry Council,
when Protestants won't reciprocate on the Protestant-dominated Belfast
council.
>
>
>: my Irish-American-Catholic friends promptly come to the same conclusion
>: that I have, namely, that Bushmill is the worst possible booze with which
>: to celebrate our our Irish-Catholic heritage.
>
>Fair Enough. You can choose not to consume a drink made by mostly
>protestant workers in a protestant part of Ireland to celebrate your
>Irish-Catholic heritage on the basis of their religion. However don't try
>and dress it up as anything other than sectarianism or religious bigotry.
>
>You claimed above that national identity is more important than religion.
>Your statement above seems to contradict this.
>
I reaffirm that national identity is more important to me than
religion. Why do you question my integrity? Why do you deny that for me
personally the critical factor is NI's British connection -- ie, Britain's
sovereignty over NI -- which is what permits NI society to oppress
Catholics, who are 2-1/2 times more likely to be unemployed than
Protestants?
Slainte, Jerry
xxx
Seamus Black
Gareth Davis
j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
>>Ah. "Irish-Catholic heritage". I thought St Patrick was around before
>>(Roman) Catholics and Protestants existed. But anyway its nice to know
>>that where you are St. Patrick's day is a sectarian holiday , sort of
>>a counterpart to the 12th of July.
>
> You've got it wrong. St. Patrick's Day in the US is widely
>celebrated by many ethnic and religious groups. Here in the San >Francisco area one of the highlights is an Irish-Italian-Israeli =
>luncheon. But that does not prevent Irish-Catholics from celebrating >the Catholic component of their heritage along with the Iris=
h >component.
No I haven't gotten it wrong. I never said that "St. Patrick's Day" in general is sectarian. Rather I am saying that in way in which=
you and your friends choose to celebrate it _is_ sectarian. You say that Bushmills is the "worst" drink to celebrate St. Patrick's =
day on the basis that its made by protestants (and don't give us that bull that Bushmills discrimiate against Catholics as your excu=
se- Bushmills does not discriminate according to the leader of NI's Catholics who has no reason to deny it if it were true and every=
reason to act on).
>being Irish meant being persecuted by British/Protestant colonists in >part because of their Catholicism (and in
>part because of their Irish/non-British national identity). To suggest that
>our heritage has no "sectarian" components is false.
Ooops So We're punishing modern day Antrim Protestants for what happened centuries. Well you name is "Desmond" ansd the Desmonds wer=
e Norman invaders/colonists who were pretty good at persecuting natives in their day you know.Still you can celebrate the religious =
aspect of a heritage in apositive way without expressing it in the form of not buying products produced by Irishmen on the basis of =
their religion.
>>
>>: Unfortunately, for some nearly inexplicable reason -- good
>>: advertising by Bushmill, I suppose -- my Irish-American-Catholic friends
>>: have assumed (without giving it any thought) that Bushmill is an
>>: appropriate Irish whiskey with which to celebrate this Irish-Catholic
>>: heritage.
>>
>>Oh No. I mean a "protestant drink". It would never do. And these people
>>call Ian Paisley a bigot?
>
> And a British product as well. I consider Bushmill a product that
>epitomizes NI's British connection.
So you agree that Gerry Adams is a British politician as well. You can'tt have it both ways you know. Eitehr you think Northern Irel=
and is "Irish" and hence anyone there is entitled to us ethe term "Irish". If you beleive that no one or nothing in NI has aright to=
call itself Irish then you're subscribing to the DUP line
To an equal degree, I consider it a
>product that epitomizes the anti-Catholic culture that has existed in NI
>(and this particular area of NI) for centuries,
Wrong again. This shows that you are completely ignorant of the area. Bushmills and Antrim in general were areas of support for the =
United Irishmen (the first non-sectarian nationalist movement in Irish history) in the late 1700s. Catholics and protestants get on =
better in this part of the world than elsewhere in Northern Ireland. I refuted your slander
of Bushmills at length in my last posting. Its sin in your eyes seems to be being a mostly protestant area.
an anti-Catholic culture
>that led to incidents like Burntollet Bridge and currently finds expression
>in the anti-Catholic pronouncements and conduct of Ian Paisley. I cannot
>agree with your premise that protesting NI's historic anti-Catholic culture
>and its British connection makes me a bigot.
No protesting it is fine. (It'd be nice of course to find you condemning sectarian conduct and discrimination that come sfrom the ot=
her side). What does make you a bigot is not buying a product on the basis of the prevailing religion of area where it is made.
>
> Yes. It is a fact, even tho I don't like it (and hope the situation
>changes), that Britain exercises sovereignty over NI. I would be delighted
>if 100% of the people in the 6 counties severed the connection with Britain
>and began to think of themselves as "Irish" not simply in the geographical
>sense, but also in the sense of national identity.
I *do* find it
>hypocritical when someone identifies himself as "Irish" when trying to sell
>booze to Irish-Americans, but "British" when it comes to national identity.
Well I find it hypocritical for a self-declared nationalist (who actually isn't Irish himself) to try to deny the right of people bo=
rn and living on the island of Ireland to call themselves Irish.
>>
>>: that the distillery and its workforce are located in one of the most
>>: anti-Catholic areas of NI, Ian Paisley's district, and that the
>>: all-Protestant management of Bushmill employs only a token Catholic or
>>: two,
>>
>>False. John Hume, leader of NI's Catholics (and no shrinking violet on
>>these matters) exonerates Bushmills of any discrimination against
>>Catholics. In previous discussions you proved to be ignorant of basic
>>facts such as the fact that the area where the distillery is located is
>>overwhelmingly protestant.
Whoops you deleted all my stuff about why Bushmills is _not_ an area where sectarian tensions are bitter (for your research it might=
be interesting for you to compare the fate of the RC minority in this part of Antrim with that of the protestant minority in Southe=
rn Armagh or Western Fermanagh).
>
> Sorry to disabuse you of your preconceived notions, but I have been
>aware of the protestant character of the area around Bushmill from the
>outset.
You showed yourself ignorant of the history of the area and of the character of cross-community relationships there. Instead you tri=
ed
to slur the ordinary people of Bushmills as exuding some sort of "anti-Catholic odor".
Indeed, if I had not previously known the fact (which I did), I
>would have discovered it from the news reports on the Bushmill boycott. My
>point is that there are some Catholics nearby, and lots of Catholics within
>25 miles,
Yes Catholics are employed in the distillery in a number more than proportionate to their percentage in the locality. Indeed in new =
hires, statistically speaking they get the lions share of employment there.
and that Bushmill should go further than the law absolutely
>requires -- bend over backwards -- to keep its customers happy by employing
>some of them.
Ah I see. You want them to discriminate _against_ protestants. But for you it wouldn't matter of course as most of the employees wou=
ld still not be "Irish Catholics".
I respect John Hume, but I don't agree with him either on
>this Bushmill issue,
You've quoted no evidence at all for your position that Bushmills discriminate. It seems to rely on some sort of prejudice about the=
area.
or on the issue of rotating (between Catholics and
>Protestants) the committee chairs on the Catholic-dominated Derry Council,
>when Protestants won't reciprocate on the Protestant-dominated Belfast
>council.
Ah I see. You condemn the sectarian nature of NI's history but then want the SDLP to do the same thing to "protestants" in Derry (BT=
W I have a presbyterian cousin who live sthere and votes SDLP- what do you want to do with him?)
> I reaffirm that national identity is more important to me than
>religion. Why do you question my integrity? Why do you deny that for me
>personally the critical factor is NI's British connection -- ie, Britain's
>sovereignty over NI -- which is what permits NI society to oppress
>Catholics, who are 2-1/2 times more likely to be unemployed than
>Protestants?
I don't question your integrity at all. I am sure that you are perfectly
sincere in your motives (although I would say that those motives contain what I regard as sectarianism- which we have enough of in I=
reland without having more of it brought in by foreigners thank you very much). On the basis of a news article (if you've know more =
about it you haven't shown it) you slander a town and some decent people and a firm which _doesn't_ discriminate. You boycott a firm=
's product on the basis of the religion of the area in which is based. You deny the right of people in Ireland (NI or the ROI) to us=
ethe term Irish yet call yourslef a nationalist. I certainly question your grasp of logic and of facts.
Slainte, Jerry
Seamus Black
>
> But as I have previously posted, if Irish-American-Catholics are
>buying and drinking Irish whiskey around St. Patrick's day not because it is
>their favorite booze, but in order to celebrate their Irish-Catholic
>heritage, the Bushmill is the *absolutely worst* Irish whiskey for the
>celebration of Irish-Catholic heritage.
>
> Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
>Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
>sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
>nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
>answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
>
> Slainte, Jerry
Jerry,
Instead of you and your mates getting tanked on Whiskey on St Patricks day,
why don't you do something more constructive, like find a Library and Learn
more about Ireland as you seem to be ignorant of some basic facts.
Better still, since you are celebrating your "Irish-Catholic" heritage, go do
something for the catholic church, like donate your booze money to the poor.
Anthony M Annett
In article <4lnuac$c...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>,
Robin Popplestone <p...@cs.umass.edu> wrote:
>However, Catholicism in his time, at least in its documented definitions in
>the various creeds, was perfectly compatible with mainstream Protestantism
>today.
Transubstantiation?
Tony
__________________________________________________________________
"The lunatic...doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by
short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else...You can tell
him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of
Steve Glover
Pat Devaney <Devaney...@bah.com> wrote:
>> You mean "Irish-Americans" wouldn't buy it if they knew it had been
>> produced by Irish protestants.
>In some cases, this would be unfortunately true.
>Almost all Irish-Americans are of Catholic descent.
Um, shouldn't that be "self-identified Irish-Americans"? Haven't the
"protestant Irish Americans" just dissolved into the mix (hence people
forgetting/not knowing that Certain Famous Southern Gentlemen were of
Scotch-Irish extraction)...
Steve
Steve Glover
> It is precisely to divert attention from this truth IMHO that the
> Bushmill label states "Product of Ireland" (rather than "Product of NI") and
> why the label uses the color green (rather than orange). BTW, I have ben
> advised by e-mail that Bushmill *does* produce a "Black Bush"(sp) whiskey
> with an orange label, but here in the US I have never seen it on store
> shelves.
Considering it tastes FAR better than even the malt, it's likely that there's
no market for it in Amerika...
> Can anyone imagine Michael Collins or Eammon de Valera
> voluntarily choosing Bushmill over Paddy or Jamieson(sp)?
Collins was an honest man, but I can see Dev taking a perverse pleasure in
drinking a bad whiskey because it was properly Irish rather than a good one
from the six counties.
Steve, hoping to see another new malt from the south.
n.whyte
In article <4l8v23$h...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>, j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) writes:
> Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
> Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
> sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
> nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
> answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
My own humble observations of friends of both traditions and none
suggest that the punter's favourite whiskey around here is Black
Bush, which is also a Bushmills product. Anyone else?
Nicholas Whyte
Steve Glover
sag...@queens-belfast.ac.uk (n.whyte) wrote:
>My own humble observations of friends of both traditions and none
>suggest that the punter's favourite whiskey around here is Black
>Bush, which is also a Bushmills product. Anyone else?
it's a long time since I've spent more than the odd evening in a pub back in
NI, but I'd definitely go along with that.
However, where advertising counts for more than good taste, you find
worshippers of Jameson or Tullamore Dew...
Steve, thinking all the more Bush for them as likes it
Sweeney the Wanderer
As a footnote to this discussion, I recently did a quick and admittedly
unscientific survey of a number of Irish-American women who sell/collect
Belleek china to see if there had been any talk of boycotting "protestant "
china . To a woman, they looked at me as if I had two heads. I explained
about the Bushmills business and they looked at me as if I had three heads,
and followed up with the usual "stupid good ole boy" remarks, except for one
lawyer who suggested drinking the Bushmills out of Waterford which would
economically support all of Ireland. Not a bad solution.
Sweeney
Pearse Ward
n.whyte wrote:
>
> In article <4l8v23$h...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>, j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) writes:
> > Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
> > Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
> > sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
> > nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
> > answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
>
> suggest that the punter's favourite whiskey around here is Black
> Bush, which is also a Bushmills product. Anyone else?
>
I'd agree. I'd wager Black Bush, or regular Bushmills' outsells Jameson,
Paddy and Powers together in any bar in NI.
Pearse
Jerry Desmond
In article <4lqj6n$4...@portal.gmu.edu>, gdavis2 says...
>
>>j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
>
>>You've got it wrong. St. Patrick's Day in the US
>>is widely celebrated by many ethnic and religious groups.
>>Here in the San >Francisco area one of the highlights
>>not prevent Irish-Catholics from celebrating the
>>Catholic component of their heritage along with the
>No I haven't gotten it wrong. I never said that "St.
>Patrick's Day" in general is sectarian. Rather I am
I disagree, but you have the right to your opinion, however
wrong. I have previously set forth my views in detail.
>
>>being Irish meant being persecuted by British/
>>Protestant colonists in >part because of their
>>Catholicism (and in part because of their Irish
>>/non-British national identity). To suggest that
>>our heritage has no "sectarian" components is false.
>
>Ooops So We're punishing modern day Antrim
>Protestants for what happened centuries ago.
Celebrating our heritage unquestionably includes "what happened
centuries ago".
>
>>>Oh No. I mean a "protestant drink". It would never
>>>do. And these people call Ian Paisley a bigot?
>
>> And a British product as well. I consider
>>Bushmill a product that epitomizes NI's British
>>connection.
>
>So you agree that Gerry Adams is a British
>politician also. You can't have it both ways
>you know. Either you think Northern Ireland is
>"Irish" and hence anyone there is entitled to
>use the term "Irish" or you don't. If you believe
>that no one or nothing in NI has a right to
>call itself Irish then you're subscribing to
>the DUP line.
It is (sadly) a fact that Britain exercises sovereignty over NI. It
also (sadly) is a fact that many residents of NI think of themselves
primarily as British, and only secondarily or geographically as Irish. IMHO
Bushmills epitomizes this British connection, whereas Paddy's represents a
product that is Irish without the British connection. Re "subscribing to
the DUP line", it is this constituency that invariably elects the founder
and leader of the DUP, Ian Paisley.
As to whether Gerry Adams is a "British politician", I find that a
difficult one, given that he once subjected himself to British electoral
machinery, but then refused to take his seat in Parliament after he won.
If your want to claim Adams as a British politician, I'll defer to your
judgment on this particular question.
>And interestingly enough what
>are your qualifications for being entitled
>to call or label yourslef Irish? Given that you
>above refer to yourself as "Irish-Catholic" and
>it appears that you were not born or have never
>lived in Ireland they seem to be pretty lax.
Touche. The correct term would have been "Irish-American-Catholic",
which (when in the company of Americans exclusively) sometimes is shortened
to "Irish Catholic".
>
>
>>To an equal degree, I consider it a
>>product that epitomizes the anti-Catholic
>>culture that has existed in NI
>>(and this particular area of NI) for centuries,
>
>Wrong again. This shows that you are completely
>ignorant of the area. Bushmills and Antrim in
>general were areas of support for the United
>Irishmen (the first non-sectarian nationalist
>movement in Irish history) in the late 1700s.
>
It is true that during their 7 year tenure, the United Irishmen were
non-sectarian under the leadership of Wolf Tone, Henry Joy McCracken and
Henry Munroe, all of whom were Protestant Republicans of a radical bent. If
the Protestant leaders who succeeded these heros had adhered to their
ideology, the current hostilities between Protestant/unionists and
Catholic/nationalists never would have occurred. But within a few years
after the failure of the United Irishmen rising of 1798, Ulster Protestants
had reverted to the anti-Catholic animus which had existed before 1790 and
which had triggered Penal Laws under which Catholics were persecuted for
most of the 18th Century.
>>an anti-Catholic culture
>>that led to incidents like Burntollet Bridge
>>and currently finds expression
>>in the anti-Catholic pronouncements and conduct
>>of Ian Paisley. I cannot agree with your
>>premise that protesting NI's historic anti-Catholic culture
>>and its British connection makes me a bigot.
>
>No protesting it is fine. (It'd be nice of
>course to find you condemning sectarian conduct
>and discrimination that comes from the other side).
It might also be nice if you would condemn the manner in which
Protestants still today "celebrate their heritage" via their triumphalist,
confrontational, "in-your-face", "chip-on-the shoulder" marches (designed to
provoke sectarian confrontation) through Catholic areas. When I see
widespread Protestant support of these deliberately provokative
sectarian marches, I realize that our totally pacifist, passive, and
non-confrontational Bushmills boycott is a minimalist endeavor. Perhaps a
contribution to Sinn Fein would be more productive.
>What does make you a bigot is not buying a product
>on the basis of the prevailing religion of area where
>it is made.
>
I support your free speech right to call me a religious "bigot",
but you are flat out wrong and (even tho I recognize that you may only be
"putting me on") I still resent the allegation. Your bigotry charge does
not hold water, since I purchase the goods and services of Protestants all
the time. Last week I entered into a contract to have my roof redone, and
for my roofing contractor, I selected *gasp* a Protestant. When I bought my
golden retriever, I bought it from *gasp* a Protestant. When I married, I
married *gasp* a Protestant. Re 99.9% of the goods and services I purchase
-- my Tanquery gin (my second favorite booze), my Braun coffee grinder, my
Thomasville DR table -- I do not know the religion of the workforce, nor do
I care.
So among all the Protestant products around, why do I single out
Bushmills for boycott? If you had carefully read my previous posts, you
would know that (1) I believe that Bushmills is the worst possible booze
with which to celebrate my heritage because to me (a) it epitomizes the
unfortunate British sovereignty over NI, (b) it epitomizes the historic
persecution of Catholics in Ireland and more recently in NI; and (2) I would
like to encourage Bushmills to do more -- more than the law strictly
requires -- in the way of providing employment opportunities for Catholics.
If this makes me (in you mind) a bigot, so be it.
Slainte, Jerry
hig...@ebi.ac.uk
In article <1996Apr30....@queens-belfast.ac.uk>, sag...@queens-belfast.ac.uk (n.whyte) writes:
> In article <4l8v23$h...@ccnet2.ccnet.com>, j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) writes:
>> Just out of curiousity, in the pubs in the Protestant areas of
>> Belfast and Derry, I wonder how the sales of Paddy + Jameson compare to the
>> sales of Bushmill. Is there any evidence of ethnic, religious or
>> nationist leanings in these sales figures? I doubt if anyone will know the
>> answer, but if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing the facts.
>
> My own humble observations of friends of both traditions and none
> suggest that the punter's favourite whiskey around here is Black
> Bush, which is also a Bushmills product. Anyone else?
>
Down in the Free State, Black Bush is also EXTREMELY popular. Jerry,
we have enough "real" problems in Ireland without having to invent new ones.
Why don't you just go ahead and stop drinking the stuff.
Indignant of Kinnegad.
Eoin Keith
j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
<much stuff sniped>
> So among all the Protestant products around, why do I single out
>Bushmills for boycott? If you had carefully read my previous posts, you
>would know that (1) I believe that Bushmills is the worst possible booze
>with which to celebrate my heritage because to me (a) it epitomizes the
>unfortunate British sovereignty over NI, (b) it epitomizes the historic
>persecution of Catholics in Ireland and more recently in NI; and (2) I would
>like to encourage Bushmills to do more -- more than the law strictly
>requires -- in the way of providing employment opportunities for Catholics.
>If this makes me (in you mind) a bigot, so be it.
Jerry,
Just a simple (and genuine) question. Does the fact that every Irish
(whether they from NI or ROI) poster on this thread has said,
absically, that your boycott is, at best, misdirected, have any impact
on you. How many Irish-Irish does it take to convince you that we
don't want the boycott? Or would it take one particular Irish-Irishamn
to convince you, or is this purely an Irish American thing which has
nothing to do with the real Ireland that I live in?
(These questions has come out phreased more aggressivly than I
intended, sorry).
Eoin
John Duffey
>>Bushmills for boycott? If you had carefully read my previous posts, you
>>would know that (1) I believe that Bushmills is the worst possible booze
>>with which to celebrate my heritage because to me (a) it epitomizes the
>>unfortunate British sovereignty over NI, (b) it epitomizes the historic
>>persecution of Catholics in Ireland and more recently in NI; and (2) I would
>>like to encourage Bushmills to do more -- more than the law strictly
>>requires -- in the way of providing employment opportunities for Catholics.
>>If this makes me (in you mind) a bigot, so be it.
>
>
>Just a simple (and genuine) question. Does the fact that every Irish
>(whether they from NI or ROI) poster on this thread has said,
>absically, that your boycott is, at best, misdirected, have any impact
>on you. How many Irish-Irish does it take to convince you that we
>don't want the boycott? Or would it take one particular Irish-Irishamn
>to convince you, or is this purely an Irish American thing which has
>nothing to do with the real Ireland that I live in?
>(These questions has come out phreased more aggressivly than I
>intended, sorry).
>
>Eoin
Yes, Eoin, this seems to be a purely American Irish thing. To take it a step
further, it comes out of San Francisco and seems to have little or no recognition
beyond in the rest of the USA. The mayor of SF who was engaged in a tough election
bid, pandering to votes of a vocal minority, ceremoniously poured out a bottle of
Bushmills -- down the drain, an offense which ought to be punishable by time in the
stocks.
Loud and outrageous always beats informed, reasonable and balanced when it comes to
getting media attention. Any consumer of UK media should see that.
These folks aren't interested in facts. There's no getting through to them. They
Know what they want to believe and seize upon any allegation which supports their
gut feelings and resentment for the sins of the past. IMHO, they perpetuate it all
by doing so with minimal, if any, constructive agenda for today's problems in NI.
Jerry Desmond
In article <1996May...@ebi.ac.uk>, hig...@ebi.ac.uk says...
Why, you ask? Every time someone answers one of my posts, hundreds
of people read it, and whether or not the readers agree with me, the
Bushmills boycott receives a little bit more attention.
If all I did was to *personally* "stop drinking the stuff", the
Bushmills boycott would lose all the valuable attention which this
newsgroup gives it.
Besides, to me (altho certainly not to everyone) it is more
interesting than Handgun Availability or the Belgrano.
Slainte, Jerry
xxx
Gareth G Davis
BTW I have a life to lead and feel taht thsi exchange is boiling
down to repeating over and ove rthe same things so this will be
my last posting on this matter.
Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
: In article <4lqj6n$4...@portal.gmu.edu>, gdavis2 says...
: >Ooops So We're punishing modern day Antrim
: >Protestants for what happened centuries ago.
: Celebrating our heritage unquestionably includes "what happened
: centuries ago".
Well if you want to take that approach then you're
also going to have to take into account the nasty
things done by your ancestors (the Norman's).
:
: >
: >>>Oh No. I mean a "protestant drink". It would never
: >>>do. And these people call Ian Paisley a bigot?
: >
: >> And a British product as well. I consider
: >>Bushmill a product that epitomizes NI's British
: >>connection.
: >
: >So you agree that Gerry Adams is a British
: >politician also. You can't have it both ways
: >you know. Either you think Northern Ireland is
: >"Irish" and hence anyone there is entitled to
: >use the term "Irish" or you don't. If you believe
: >that no one or nothing in NI has a right to
: >call itself Irish then you're subscribing to
: >the DUP line.
: IMHO
: Bushmills epitomizes this British connection, whereas Paddy's represents a
: product that is Irish without the British connection.
Well all I have to say about this line of thought is that
if you want to cleanse St. Patrick's day of the "British
Connection" then things that will have to disappear include
St. Patrick himself (a Briton) and indeed an awful lot that
Irish people consider to be Irish.
: Re "subscribing to
: the DUP line", it is this constituency that invariably elects the founder
: and leader of the DUP, Ian Paisley.
I've already dealt with this inference. This is a very
big constiteuncy (geographically) and includes many areas
including Ultra-Catholic (and moderately nationalist) ones.
In any case a)indiviudals are not individually responsible
for who happens to be their constituency MP and b) Ian Paisley
is on your side on this one as he stauchly opposes all alcholic
beverages (as the "Devil's Buttermilk") and would gladly encourage
anyone to boycott Bushmills.
: >And interestingly enough what
: >are your qualifications for being entitled
: >to call or label yourslef Irish? Given that you
: >above refer to yourself as "Irish-Catholic" and
: >it appears that you were not born or have never
: >lived in Ireland they seem to be pretty lax.
: Touche. The correct term would have been "Irish-American-Catholic",
: which (when in the company of Americans exclusively) sometimes is shortened
: to "Irish Catholic".
But you still include the term "Irish" in describing
yourself whilst objecting to the Bushmills people
using it.
: >This shows that you are completely
: >ignorant of the area. Bushmills and Antrim in
: >general were areas of support for the United
: >Irishmen (the first non-sectarian nationalist
: >movement in Irish history) in the late 1700s.
: >
: It is true that during their 7 year tenure, the United Irishmen were
: non-sectarian under the leadership of Wolf Tone, Henry Joy McCracken and
: Henry Munroe, all of whom were Protestant Republicans of a radical bent. If
: the Protestant leaders who succeeded these heros had adhered to their
: ideology, the current hostilities between Protestant/unionists and
: Catholic/nationalists never would have occurred. But within a few years
: after the failure of the United Irishmen rising of 1798, Ulster Protestants
: had reverted to the anti-Catholic animus which had existed before 1790 and
: which had triggered Penal Laws under which Catholics were persecuted for
: most of the 18th Century.
Your history (once again) saeems to be a wee bit mixed up
(to use the local dialect). As regards the penal laws and
the protestants of Bushmills who are overwhelmingly
Presbyterian well they suffered under exactly the same
penal laws as RCs (and all non- C of I's) did. Indeed
they were in some ways treated more severely, for example
their marriages for example were not legally recognised.
This was the case before 1798 and after 1798.
Secondly the retreat from ecumenical/secular
nationalism of Ulster's Presbyterian's is a bit more
complex than you relate. It began in 1798 itself
when the Catholic-dominated Wexford wing of the
joint Presbyterian/Catholic/Radical 1798 rising
decided after winning a few battles to massacre
every _protestant_ they could find. Things like
that hardly endeared Ulster Presbyterians to such
arranegments in the future. You can add to that
the increasing reactionary nature of the Irish RC
church in the 19th Century and the increasing
tendency of nationalists from O'Connell to Pearse
(to indeed people like yourself) to associate
nationalism with Catholicism.
(Incidentally part of the force which put down this
rebellion in Antrim were Irish Catholic millitas from
the South of Ireland. Daniel O"Connell (who himself
turned out to fight against (protestant) Emmett's
rebellion of 1801) use dto boast of this fact.)
Thirdly the liberalism/radicalism of this area
did not disappear as quickly as you say. Indeed
up to 1905/6 the Presbyterian church included
a clause in its rules banning ministers (and
elders?) and discouraging its members from
joining the Orange Order. A number of prominent
Presbyterians from this area opposed the 1912
Home Rule Bill (opposition to this bill was
rational IMO by protestants given the intensity
of Religious discimination against protestants
carried by the Redmond Home Rulers wherever and
whenever they got political control of anything).
Some of this radicalism still persists and if
you want to find out about it read John Barclay's
autobiography (Blackmouth and Dissenter).
: It might also be nice if you would condemn the manner in which
: Protestants still today "celebrate their heritage" via their triumphalist,
: confrontational, "in-your-face", "chip-on-the shoulder" marches (designed to
: provoke sectarian confrontation) through Catholic areas.
I thought we were talking about Employment
discrimination.
Okay. I totally condemn (the small minority of)
OO marches that take place through areas where
they are not wanted-
The terms that you use to describe OO marches
are I feel particularily good adjectives for
describing a lot of what I saw on St. Patrick's
day over here with the various AOH type "Irish"
American type parades.
-truimphalist (if you mean being loudly enhthuastic
(ie truimphant) about your culture).
-confrontational (things like naming bombers as
Grand Marshalls of the parade seem designed to provoke
confrontation at some level)
-In your Face (Certainly. Its pretty hard to miss them).
-Chip-on-the-Shoulder (Given the amount of Anti-British/
Unionist/Protestant Tee shirts, badges and placards I
would certainly say that)
-Sectarian (Absolutely. The parades have a strongly Catholic
ethos and indeed are usually organised by exclusively Catholic
organsiations like the AOH)
When I see
: widespread Protestant support of these deliberately provokative
: sectarian marches, I realize that our totally pacifist, passive, and
: non-confrontational Bushmills boycott is a minimalist endeavor. Perhaps a
: contribution to Sinn Fein would be more productive.
Ah so these marches (or support by protestants for them) justify giving
money to SinnFein/IRA. Ah now if marches would justify this then what
sort of retaliation would things like Harrod's or Claudy bombing (where
people actually died) justify? Giving money to the UVF?
Well when I see widespread support amongst some "Irish"-Americans
for groups like Noraid. When I see people from this comununity
continue to bankroll and hold parades and wear Tee-shirts supporting
the Provos even after things like Enniskillen or the bombing of Elliot's
fish shop or the slaying of Jennifer Johnson or the Kingsmills massacre
what am I to conclude? Should NI protestants rush out to give cash to
people like the Lockerbie bombers or Timothy McVeigh-and-kind?
These are the sort of people who lecture about religious
economic disparities in Northern Ireland yet are citizens
of and live in a country which has racial inequalities
which drawf NI's disparities (ie Black's are x4 more
likely to be below the poverty line than Whites in the
US, etc, etc, etc,). Indeed very often these same people
such as Peter King (R-NY) and Ben Gilman (R-NY) oppose
affirmative action in the US but demand it for NI. These
are the sort of people who call themselves "non-bigoted"
yet will boycott firms in largely protestant areas with
largely protestant workforces which don't discrimiate but
will not bother to lift a finger about the cases of firms
like Sean Quinn's Hotel and Cement factory which have
practiced intensive anti-protestant discrimination. The
sort of people who hold rallies for "Justice for Bloody
Sunday" yet have forgotten about "Bloody Friday" and indeed
would oppose the extradition of its perpetrators from the US
if the case came up because in the great scheme of things
dead (or discriminated against) NI protestants/unionists
are not of equal moral significance as dead (or discriminated
against) Irish Catholics/nationalists.
: >What does make you a bigot is not buying a product
: >on the basis of the prevailing religion of area where
: >it is made.
: >
: I support your free speech right to call me a religious "bigot",
: but you are flat out wrong and (even tho I recognize that you may only be
: "putting me on") I still resent the allegation. Your bigotry charge does
: not hold water, since I purchase the goods and services of Protestants all
: the time.......
Interestingly I heard Pat Buchanan say something along the same
lines when accused of being anti-semitic. Boycotting a firm not
on the basis of its actions but rather on the basis of the
religious/ethnic origin of the workforce is, I believe,
tantamount to bigotry. The fact that you buy other protestant-made
products is not evidence that you are not bigoted but rather that
you are an _inconsistent_ bigot.
: So among all the Protestant products around, why do I single out
: Bushmills for boycott? If you had carefully read my previous posts, you
: would know that (1) I believe that Bushmills is the worst possible booze
: with which to celebrate my heritage because to me
: (a) it epitomizes the
: unfortunate British sovereignty over NI,
In what way exactly? I have never heard of any political
significance associated with Bushmill's. Other Irish posters
(from accross the political spectrum) have echoed this
finding. No rather the reason behind your boycott does not
lie in any symbolism or otherwise of Bushmills. Neither
can it be justified by anything which Bushmills or its
employees have done. Rather your problem with Bushmills
lies in the ethnicity and the religion of the employees.
You just don't like NI protestants and you won't buy
Bushmills because its workforce is composed of them.
: (b) it epitomizes the historic
: persecution of Catholics in Ireland and more recently in NI;
How can it do that? Bushmills does not discriminate against
Catholics. The drink has no political significance. The
overwhelmingly Presbyterian protestants of Bushmills suffered
under the same Penal laws as Catholics did and played no
role in bringing about the Penal laws. Indeed the area was, in
hsitory, a centre for opposition to English rule. Ireland has
a long and complex history. The fault lines and make up of the
different opposing groups has constantly evolved and changed.
Catholics have done nasty things to Catholics, Protestants to
Catholics, Catholics to Protestants and Protestants to
Protestants. Irish history does not boil down to the simplistic
"persecution of Celtic Catholic "Real" Irish" by
"protestants/colonsists/British". Ireland has been a mosaic of
relationships. The irony of your own ancestry from Norman
colonists invaders should remind you of this fact.
: and (2) I would
: like to encourage Bushmills to do more -- more than the law strictly
: requires -- in the way of providing employment opportunities for Catholics.
Bushmills does not discriminate against Catholics. Their proportion
is slightly above that in the cathchment area. In new hires Catholics
have been disproportionately represented. For Bushmills to do any more
(as you suggest they should) would involve actively discrimating _against_
protestants. Such anti-protestant discrimination would also be against
the law.
: If this makes me (in you mind) a bigot, so be it.
Maybe you think you are not prejudiced or bigoted. Maybe you
just haven't thought this one through logically. I can see
no justification for your actions other than your dislike of
people who are NI protestants on the basis of their ethnicity
and religion. To anyone in Ireland to boycott a person on the
basis of their religion/ethnic origin would, I believe be termed
sectarian bigotry.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Some day these people are gonna get good government, and they ain't
gonna like it one bit".
Huey Long
(Former Louisiana Governor and Senator)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth G Davis
Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
: In article <1996May...@ebi.ac.uk>, hig...@ebi.ac.uk says...
: >Down in the Free State, Black Bush is also EXTREMELY popular. Jerry,
: >we have enough "real" problems in Ireland without having to invent new
: >ones. Why don't you just go ahead and stop drinking the stuff.
: >
: >Indignant of Kinnegad.
: Why, you ask? Every time someone answers one of my posts, hundreds
: of people read it, and whether or not the readers agree with me, the
: Bushmills boycott receives a little bit more attention.
: If all I did was to *personally* "stop drinking the stuff", the
: Bushmills boycott would lose all the valuable attention which this
: newsgroup gives it.
Your boycott is getting attention alright but for what reasons?
All of the people who have posted on this thread, stretching right
across the spectrum have opposed your boycott as being bigoted/stupid/
wrong/misinformed/ridiculous. You're postings in support of the boycott are
getting the sort of attention reserved for "Looney" causes. I'd certainly
get attention if I posted something saying, for example, that people
should boycott John Alderdice as a terrorist or that John Bruton is the
single most important person in the history of the world.
Look at it another way. You are not only generating attention for
your boycott but also generating publicity for Bushmills.
: Besides, to me (altho certainly not to everyone) it is more
: interesting than Handgun Availability or the Belgrano.
Agreed.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Some day these people are gonna get good government, and they ain't
gonna like it one bit".
Huey Long
(Former Louisiana Govenor and Senator)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aine.McManus
In article <4mc8rr$j...@ccnet2.ccnet.com> j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) writes:
In article <1996May...@ebi.ac.uk>, hig...@ebi.ac.uk says...
>
>Down in the Free State, Black Bush is also EXTREMELY popular. Jerry,
>we have enough "real" problems in Ireland without having to invent new
>ones. Why don't you just go ahead and stop drinking the stuff.
>
>Indignant of Kinnegad.
Why, you ask? Every time someone answers one of my posts, hundreds
of people read it, and whether or not the readers agree with me, the
Bushmills boycott receives a little bit more attention.
And with any luck, they're rational people who see that Bushmills,
with employment procedures designed to employ more Catholics, does not
discriminate against Catholics, even though based in a predominately
Protestant area. The fact that no-one from Ireland, North or South, on
this group supports a Bushmills' boycott must also indicate that Irish
people see no problem with Bushmills. It's one of the few issues I've
seen a lot of these people agree on.
Who knows, maybe all those who've read it have realised that if
Bushmills is so popular, they should buy some and try it! I'll
certainly be restocking my cupboard.
Aine
--
===============================================================================
Áine McManus, Aine.M...@maths.anu.edu.au
Centre for Mathematics and its Applications,
Australian National University, +61-6-249 3458 (W)
ACT 0200, Australia. +61-6-249 5549 (Fax)
http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~mcmanus/index.html
===============================================================================
an49...@anon.penet.fi
j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) wrote:
SNIP
>The
>point is that there are some Catholics nearby, and lots of Catholics
>within 25 miles, and that Bushmill should go further than the law
>absolutely requires -- bend over backwards -- to keep its customers
>happy by employing some of them.
In suggesting that Bushmills should discriminate in favour of Roman
Catholics you are asking Bushmills to break the law. Further, if I
read you correctly only companies which indulge in this practice
qualify for your custom. Correct me if I am wrong here, or feel free
to add further "preconditions" (see below).
SNIP
> Why do you deny that for me
>personally the critical factor is NI's British connection -- ie,
>Britain's sovereignty over NI -- which is what permits NI society to
>oppress Catholics, who are 2-1/2 times more likely to be unemployed
>than Protestants? Slainte, Jerry
So this is not about fair "employement" - fair enough!
It seems likely that these higher rates of unemployment are due to the
birth rate of Roman Catholics. I look forward to reading your
explanation of how "NI Society" is responsible for this "oppression";
or your apology.
It seems you missed the point I was trying to make in an earlier post.
Discrimination ensures that those best qualified for a job are not
employed. Companies which do not employ the best people are
uncompetitive. Uncompetitive companies means less employment
regardless of religious persuasion.
If you like Bushmills whiskey, drink it. It will reduce unemployment
in NI. If you are at all concerned about unemployment in NI you
now know what to do.
--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to ab...@anon.penet.fi
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If you have any problems, address them to ad...@anon.penet.fi
Jerry Desmond
In article <4md7t5$m...@portal.gmu.edu>, gda...@mason2.gmu.edu says...
>
>BTW I have a life to lead and feel taht thsi exchange is boiling
>down to repeating over and ove rthe same things so this will be
>my last posting on this matter.
Ditto. I am tired of explaining my motivation in boycotting
Bushmills, only to have you essentially call me a liar and insist that my
motivation is bigotry against Protestants.
Again, because I don't want the "bigotry" accusation to go
unchallenged, we are boycotting Bushmills because (1) we believe Bushmills
is the worst possible product to celebrate our Irish Catholic heritage by
virtue of the facts that (a) being one of the first British businesses in
Irelands, it symbolizes the historic British occupation of Ireland and
(because it is made in a part of Ireland still under British sovereignty) it
also symbolizes the current British rule over NI; indeed Bushmills it is
best described as a British product, and (b) for us it symbolizes the
historic persecution of Catholics in Ireland and more recently in NI; and
(2) we would like to encourage Bushmills to do more -- more than the law
strictly requires, "affirmative action" if you will -- in providing
employment opportunites for Catholics living within about 30 miles of the
distillery.
>
>
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>: It is true that during their 7 year tenure, the United Irishmen were
>: non-sectarian under the leadership of Wolf Tone, Henry Joy McCracken and
>: Henry Munroe, all of whom were Protestant Republicans of a radical bent.
>: If the Protestant leaders who succeeded these heros had adhered to their
>: ideology, the current hostilities between Protestant/unionists and
>: Catholic/nationalists never would have occurred. But within a few years
>: after the failure of the United Irishmen rising of 1798, Ulster
>: Protestants had reverted to the anti-Catholic animus which had existed
>: before 1790 and which had triggered Penal Laws under which Catholics were
>: persecuted for most of the 18th Century.
>
>Your history (once again) saeems to be a wee bit mixed up
>(to use the local dialect). As regards the penal laws and
>the protestants of Bushmills who are overwhelmingly
>Presbyterian well they suffered under exactly the same
>penal laws as RCs (and all non- C of I's) did. Indeed
>they were in some ways treated more severely, for example
>their marriages for example were not legally recognised.
>This was the case before 1798 and after 1798.
"Exactly the same penal laws as RCs"? Surely you jest.
Under a handful of provisions in the "Popery Code" (aka Penal Laws),
Presbyterians suffered almost equally with Catholics, but most of the laws
disadvantaging a particular religion, and particularly the most severe laws,
applied to Catholics only.
Specifically, Catholics and Presbyterians alike were barred from
government employment, including military commissions and elected office.
And Catholics and Presbyterians alike were required to tithe for the support
of the Anglican Church of Ireland (although for Presbyterians -- not
Catholics -- the tithe was offset in large part by government grants, called
the Regium Donum, to the Presbyterian Church). And altho HMG did not
recognize marriages performed by Presbyterian ministers, at least these
ministers were not illegal and/or singled out for extinction; but under
penalty of death (hang, draw and quarter) the Penal Laws totally barred from
Ireland Catholic bishops and archbishops (without which no new priests could
be ordained, thereby insuring that the Catholic Church would die out if the
law were followed); in addition, the law permitted only a small quota of
parish priests who were "registered".
The more draconian of the Penal Laws applied to Catholics only.
Indeed, Professor Edmund Curtis ("A History of Ireland") characterized the
Penal Laws applicable to Presbyterians as "far fewer and lighter than
those of their Catholic neighbors": "Protestant Dissenters, especially in
the North, who were little represented in the landlord and ruling classes,
had their own religious and economic grievances, far fewer and lighter than
those of their Catholic neighbors, but galling enough" (p. 287).
Thus Catholics were prohibited from purchasing realty, or even a
lease of realty for more than 31 years.
Altho Catholics were permitted to retain land already owned,
Catholic ownership was uniquely restricted. A Catholic landlord was
prohibited in his will from devising this realty to one of several sons, but
rather (unlike Protestants) was required to leave it in equal shares among
all his children, thereby insuring smaller and smaller farms as time went
by. But this rule was subject to an exception: If any one of the man's sons
became a Protestant, then (1) the Protestant son inherited everything,
regardless of the will, and (2) the Protestant son *immediately* (ie, during
the life of his parents) wrested from his parents full management and
control of the realty.
(If a Protestant woman married a Catholic, she forfeited her land to
her siblings.)
Under these laws, Catholic ownership of land decreased from 14% to
5%. Originally, Catholic ownership of land was about 95%, but the
confiscations of the 17th Century had reduced it to the above 14%.
Catholics were deprived of the right to vote.
Catholics were prohibited from entering most professions (except
medicine), specifically the practice of law.
Altho Catholics were permitted to pursue a livlihood in trade or
business -- and a handful prospered here -- discriminatory restrictions
handicapped them.
Thus no Catholic could own a horse worth more than 5 pounds. Not
only was this a life style restriction, it also was a restriction that
excluded Catholics from many businesses (transportation) and curtailed them
in others.
No Catholic could have more than 2 apprentices, restricting growth
of business.
If a Catholic's pre-rent profits exceeded 3 times his rent, he was
required by law (regardless of his lease), he was required to pay more rent
so that his profits did not exceed 3x rent.
No Catholic could operate a school, or send his children to be
educated abroad. The University of Dublin was closed to Catholics. The law
was intended to force Catholic children to attend Anglican schools, where
they would be proselitized to Anglicanism, or to remain uneducated. HMG
knew full well -- and indeed intended -- that the kids would remain
uneducated.
None of these provisions of the Popery Code applied to
Presbyterians. As stated by Curtis: "As regards the free purchase,
inheritance and enjoyment of land the Dissenters were not subject to any
disability, nor were they excluded from the trades and professions." (p.
287).
>: So among all the Protestant products around, why do I single out
>: Bushmills for boycott? If you had carefully read my previous posts, you
>: would know that (1) I believe that Bushmills is the worst possible booze
>: with which to celebrate my heritage because to me
>
>: (a) it epitomizes the
>: unfortunate British sovereignty over NI,
>
>In what way exactly? I have never heard of any political
>significance associated with Bushmill's. Other Irish posters
>(from accross the political spectrum) have echoed this
>finding. No rather the reason behind your boycott does not
>lie in any symbolism or otherwise of Bushmills.
Bushmills is being singled out for boycot specifically because of
its symbolism. Established and licensed by HMG in Ireland in 1608, almost
concurrently with the British takeover of Ireland, Bushmills was one of the
first British businesses in British occupied Ireland, and certainly one of
the best known businesses exporting a consummer product to the US. If there
is any other business with the same symbolism, I am not aware of it.
Slainte, Jerry
Jerry Desmond
In article <4md9rf$u...@portal.gmu.edu>, gda...@mason2.gmu.edu says...
>
>Jerry Desmond (j...@ccnet.com) wrote:
>>
>: Why, you ask? Every time someone answers one of my posts, hundreds
>: Bushmills boycott receives a little bit more attention.
>: If all I did was to *personally* "stop drinking the stuff", the
>: Bushmills boycott would lose all the valuable attention which this
>: newsgroup gives it.
>
>Your boycott is getting attention alright but for what reasons?
>All of the people who have posted on this thread, stretching right
>across the spectrum have opposed your boycott as being bigoted/stupid/
>wrong/misinformed/ridiculous. You're postings in support of the boycott are
>getting the sort of attention reserved for "Looney" causes.
The Bushmills boycott is doing nicely in San Francisco, thank you.
And my e-mail is not as negative as the public posts.
That the public posts are negative is worrisome, but even the most
successful grass roots campaigns sometimes catch fire slowly.
We Bushmills boycotters take comfort from the fact that the
Irish people did not immediately embrace the cause of the Easter 1916
rebels, who were jeered and disparaged and editorialized against while being
marched off to prison. But a few months later the populace had embraced
their cause wholeheartedly.
We take less comfort from the fact that 15 of the rebels were
executed by HMG before the populace swung over to their cause <g>.
Slainte, Jerry
hig...@ebi.ac.uk
In article <MCMANUS.96...@lamb.anu.edu.au>, mcm...@lamb.anu.edu.au (Aine.McManus) writes:
>
> In article <4mc8rr$j...@ccnet2.ccnet.com> j...@ccnet.com (Jerry Desmond) writes:
>
> In article <1996May...@ebi.ac.uk>, hig...@ebi.ac.uk says...
> >
> >Down in the Free State, Black Bush is also EXTREMELY popular. Jerry,
> >we have enough "real" problems in Ireland without having to invent new
> >ones. Why don't you just go ahead and stop drinking the stuff.
> >
> >Indignant of Kinnegad.
>
>
> of people read it, and whether or not the readers agree with me, the
> Bushmills boycott receives a little bit more attention.
>
>
> with employment procedures designed to employ more Catholics, does not
> discriminate against Catholics, even though based in a predominately
> Protestant area. The fact that no-one from Ireland, North or South, on
> this group supports a Bushmills' boycott must also indicate that Irish
> people see no problem with Bushmills. It's one of the few issues I've
> seen a lot of these people agree on.
Yes, it is ironic that Jerry picks on one of the few things that Irish
people from North and South agree on. Jerry, your campaign is moronic!!!!!!
You are clutching at straws you barely know anything about in order to try
to make some silly point. You seem to think you know more about the
subject than John Hume. Imagine if I tried to start a boycott of some
American company because I thought it carried out racist practices in some
place I had never been to and it was pointed out to me that Jesse Jackson
thought the boycott was wrong!!!!
Why don't you boycott Guinness? They are a family
of dirty black prods and the company is a British one now anyway.